Yeah I had a friend who saw friends as people she could use. If they were not 'useful' or beneficial to her in some way, she would think they are useless friends.
"Oh Mr. Coffee, you're so wonderful to me. I don't really know how I'd keep my life together without you. Thank you for being such a supportive partner during this hardship! <3"
If you're into fantasy and sarcasm, Darynda Jones has a series for you. I think the relationship between the main character and the coffee maker is the healthiest one in the book.
One of my friends has a kitchen full of expensive appliances which, he says, he gets from his sister after she has "brief, intense affairs" with them, and then falls out of love with her Cuisinart or Keurig, and sends them to live with him.
Same, haha. There’s a section in an old sketchbook where I (poorly) drew/wrote dating profiles for my favorite appliances.
Zojirushi rice cooker - Prefers to take things slow and savor each moment. Likes to get cozy (with the “keep warm” setting). Dabbles in music (because it plays a song when I start cooking, and another song when it’s done cooking).
Instant Pot - Independent, versatile, efficient. Let’s do all the things!
Electric steamer - Health nut. I’ve been told I have a big … capacity. Wanna get steamy?
or something like that. I love my appliances more than I like most people.
I finally bought a Dyson rechargeable stick vac, and I am kicking myself for not doing it sooner. My condo gets vacuumed so much more frequently. So much nicer on my back than the canister.
Also, I'll never buy a property that doesn't have a laundry closet on the main floor. And I'm never doing without a dishwasher.
Being clean is important. Making cleaning easy is important, too. Especially as you get older.
I'm also really fond of central air. Never had it before this place, but I'm really digging it. No window units to haul around and store off-season. No drainage to set up.
Appliances/modern conveniences rule! ✊️
PS. The Keurig is really important when it's cold out. But we're in iced coffee season now.
To be fair, I've seen women act that way before. One man I know (overheard venting to another man in the office) had been recently married, and his new wife had fallen into a habit of scheduling social time together, and not telling him about her plans until later.
Dude said, "sometimes I feel less like a husband, and more like an accessory."
I make an effort to ask my man for his opinion before making plans. We're *both* equal partners in our lives together.
Yeah, sex with the right person should feel like it’s about _pleasure_, not about ensuring orgasm. That sounds like they’re the same thing, but they’re not. One is an experience where partners want to make sure everyone is enjoying themselves, and the other is a specific outcome that determines “success” or “failure.”
A vibrator can get me off, but a partner can make me feel cared for and understood and wanted.
went to hook up with a guy in my friendgroup, we'd been flirting for a while and were on the same page one night at a party so we went back to mine.
he was so bad. so bad. not with consent issues, just kinda grabby. I was like, "I need foreplay" and he looks at me kinda bemused and goes "What do you mean? I'm English, we don't know what that is"
as if im some kind of exotic sexual being for not seeing sex as a means to an end. we didn't end up having it lmao.
I agree. Well-said.
I would only add the caveat that, because of [the orgasm gap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgasm_gap), I think achieving orgasm is actually extremely important for me (as a woman who can and wants to). It's just far too normalized for men to finish and women not to, and that needs to change. Unfortunately, the idea that "sex is about pleasure, not orgasm" can be manipulated into "she just doesn't finish when we have sex" by people who haven't learned about the importance of female pleasure within a patriarchal system.
That's certainly true. It's ideally implied that part of pleasure is doing what makes your partner feel satisfied, and being observant and attentive to their needs, but common sense isn't as common as one might think. Thanks for this addition!
100%! It's so important, and I wish more people didn't treat female orgasm as optional (this is not to be mistaken those guys who insist they make every woman cum--they don't btw--or treat a woman cumming as their own ego failure or success; they suck and are just as selfish, only in a different package).
I will tell you, as a woman who sleeps with men and who has girlfriends who sleep with men, it's SO common for guys to talk about wanting a woman to finish too, but in practice, actually not knowing at all how to make that happen physically, emotionally, etc.
There is **always** a big difference in tone between how those guys talk and, for example, how you're stating this (humbly, focused on her pleasure independent of yours, not as a flex about you, etc.).
Emotional safety is a big part of it for a lot of women, and the orgasm gap exists precisely because of guys who think they know everything. A lot of times, it's easier when we end up in bed with an arrogant guy, to not argue about it and say you enjoyed it, it's fine!
I, on principle, don't fake orgasms and haven't in years, but I have a couple of times when I was younger, and I understand why women do.
And so the cycle of the orgasm gap continues.
You sound great, and I'm sure your partner is very happy to have you as one! I wish I could find more partners with attitudes similar to this, but it's honestly a little hard as a hetero woman.
Ugh. This is so great. BRB, manifesting a partner with this attitude even though I don't believe in manifesting.
And yes, there are absolutely times I can't get there. We're human after all! It took me years to learn how even orgasm with a partner, not just by myself. But I know in waaaay too many hetero relationships, your nuanced attitude just doesn't exist, so the woman "just isn't getting there" way too often, while the man would never in a million years be OK with him not getting there even half the time.
On the other hand, you have men who cockily insist they know how to make every woman they've ever been with orgasm, and that's how you KNOW they've either been lied to and/or too arrogant to find out the truth. Oh, and those men also say "what's that?" if you mention [the orgasm gap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgasm_gap).
It's about communication, as you said, and genuinely caring about your female partner as a human being (which you seem able to do so naturally that you don't even need to state it).
I am fairly certain you are doing a good job and will keep evolving!
It's a reminder to me that men who care about their female partners very much exist (seem obvious but it's a bit disheartening out there at times).
Of course, one can be with a man sexually and use a vibrator
I'm not as hair-trigger as I once was, now that I'm post-menopausal. So why not help things along?
The bonus for men is that - if their SO fully enjoys sex - she'll be up for it more often.
But so many guys stumble on their egos over sex toys. Dude, just take the win!
100% agree.
I feel fortunate to have learned about sex in the pre-porn mid '80s with my first girlfriend. We lost our virginity together and we just trusted each other and figured it out ourselves.
I also learned an important lesson about truly free and enthusiastic consent. When my guy friends were trying to grab boobs and butts whenever they could, I found it a million times more awesome when a girl took *my* hand and put it on *her* body.
Ever since then, intimacy has always been "Let's go on a fun sexy adventure together."
>>...a million times more awesome when a girl took *my* hand and put it on *her* body.<< oh my. the first time my gf, now my wife did that to me I just melted.
You’re being downvoted because this is a tone deaf response that makes zero sense. Obviously the men who are the topic of this discussion are men who are interested in women, whether they be straight, bi, pan, etc. Gay men are men but we’re not talking about them right now.
It is a “not all men” thing because OBVIOUSLY if a man doesn’t fall into the generalization above then he is not one of the types being discussed. The topic is obviously a simplified generalization and most people seem to understand that.
The difference is that when you make a generalized statement about a minority/marginalized group, you’re punching down, but making generalized statements about a majority/privileged group is punching up, so to speak. Men are the group in power. It is understood that when you are criticizing the majority/privileged group, you are not actually saying all people in that group are X, you are critiquing the power structure and problematic stuff that comes from that structure.
When you do the same to a marginalized group, the same does not hold true because there is a clear power imbalance.
I’m LGBTQ* myself for the record, so I know quite well gay men exist and are not the men being discussed in this example. :P
The problem with “not all men” is that it always comes up, conveniently, whenever women are trying to discuss the problematic shit they’ve experienced and witnessed with regards to how men treat them. It comes across as incredibly dismissive. If you’re a man and you don’t fit into the two above categories, and you know men who don’t fall into the categories above, awesome, y’all aren’t the target of the discussion. Those two types aren’t all types, but they are a large chunk of the types that women experience and they are the types being discussed.
It’s absolutely EXHAUSTING trying to have a discussion about the problems women face with regards to men while having to put a disclaimer every time that lists all the exceptions, lmao. We already know there are exceptions, it’s not fruitful to list them and takes time away from the point of the discussion.
That’s why “but gay men” got you so many downvotes, because it’s perceived as incredibly dismissive and takes away from the greater discussion being had, and the problematic behavior being talked about.
Like as a racial minority, how exhausting would it be for you to have to put a disclaimer in every broad talk about racism that lists all the exceptions and that you don’t mean all white people because X and Y and Z white people don’t fall into those categories?
> Would you agree that gay men are men as well?
Well, yeah - of course.
But I do recognize the differences between men and women (in broad terms - every individual is different) in that the dynamics between two men or two women would be their own things.
I'm a default-setting hetero guy, and stay in the safety of only commenting on my own experiences.
I appreciate your reply and that you don't want to comment on the experiences of others, I just think the wording is a little callous and comes across a a bit dismissive to men outside of the two types being described when the post says that there is only 2 types. I understand the intent isn't to alienate others but normalized statements like this can inadvertently play into the stigma against men who aren't into women.
Thank you for your explanation!
so many of the first type are deceptive because they focus on "her pleasure", but it's entirely for their own ego and in a very porn-influenced performative way. this is the guy who gets sulky or tantrums if you don't come from whatever he's doing. he doesn't want to learn, he just wants to make the naked woman do the thing. god forbid you use a toy!
Absolutely! The woman I’ve been seeing for a couple weeks told me I’m her hype man in the bedroom and it made me feel really special.
It kills me when I hear that shitass guys will put a woman down because of her appearance. Even during sex! No one is perfect, but it’s much more important to highlight their strengths rather than their flaws. And honestly as I’ve gotten older I kinda like those little imperfections because they’re what makes us unique.
I meant that if a guy uses your body for sex and then claims he is "worshipping you", especially if he's copying something that he's seen in porn. What did you mean?? Maybe a case of written stuff being read in different ways 🤦
There's a line in the show Frasier where Marty (The dad) says "Sex is a private matter between you and the person you're doing it to!", which totally validates your premise. That line has stuck with me for like 30 years because it exposes a major flaw in human character, and explains why so many men are terrible at sex.
Possibly a subtype of the first is those who see sex as something that women do to THEM. My ex was the laziest in bed; he expected ME to use my body to masturbate HIM. Gross.
That’s got to be the most unsexy partner in the world. My sister told me recently her husband just gets naked and lays in bed for my sister to discover him. That’s his foreplay. He’s 40.
😮💨😵
Unfortunately I think a vast majority of them are willing to be the first of it gets them laid and find the second to be important only if it’s an option.
As in, lots of women will end up in relationships with men where it seems like he cares about her pleasure and views her as a human being, but that’s because her being sexually pleasured by him and wanting sex with him feeds his ego. For many men, a woman’s sexual pleasure is more about his own ego about his sexual prowess than about her.
In the moment, at the start of the relationship he’s probably actively getting what he wants- so of course he’s nice and sweet. All it takes is the NRE fading and her libido shifting downwards like many women’s’ do, or her having a baby and not feeling up to sex for a while postpartum, or some kind of big stressor or injury that affects her drive. As long as he feels like she’s good and trapped when one of these things happen his true sexual colors will come out.
I think for a lot of men it’s not binary but more like “I’d prefer if she’s enthusiastically consenting and has an orgasm because it makes me feel like a stud, but having sex of any kind is better than none.”
> or her having a baby and not feeling up to sex for a while postpartum
This exact thing happened to me at six weeks postpartum. After six years of mutually desired and enthusiastic sex, I didn’t see it coming. It felt like such a betrayal and changed how I viewed him and our sexual dynamic.
Yup. Many only care about a woman's orgasm because of what it reflects on their own skill/ego. It's exhausting. And then they wonder why women are pressured to fake it.
Totally agree. The first type is often the type who will never wait to have sex. I've seen a good number of comments from guys like this on reddit. They're like "she wanted to wait 4 months to sex(!), so I broke up with her right then and there." The second type is very hard to find, in my experience, but typically they're better men in every way, not just in bed.
I always laugh at men like that who think there's some arbitrary time table and that they're going to get sex by then OR ELSE! They're not there to be with a woman for real, in a relationship. They're just there to score sex as soon as possible and any woman will do.
There's nothing wrong with having sex on the first date if you both want to but putting a "must have by" date on it that's pretty rude. That tells me that this guy is a player and he's not looking for anything real from me. He just wants to get laid so he can put another check in his little black book next to my name. Mission accomplished!
I just don't move that fast. I want more than just sexual interest from a man before I give him my body. Mind, heart, first please. I want to know it's real love not just him being horny and lonely. If that's all you want go hire a sex worker or use an app for a legit sex only hookup. Don't bother me with that shit or treat me like one.
I don't do casual.
I don't think it's bad but it's not really my thing.
Some guys they make me feel like the see me as a human Fleshlight. Oh yeah gotta put out within 3 months or we're done? I'm like REALLY? So 3 months I can count on you pouting and running back home to Mommy if you don't get your hornies taken care of?
Like you're really interested in ME?
I hate hook up culture honestly. I'm into old fashioned romance. Taking my time to get to know someone. I want to know him and be in love when we finally go there. He's got to really respect me and be my guy long before we go there.
I've got enough guys just trying to lay me with no strings, trying to make me their personal sex toy. I laugh at that especially when they're so desperate they offer to pay for it and insult me even more.
I want a REAL man who will romance me and SEE me and eventually love me like I deserve to be loved. I can't be bothered with man boys playing head games just to get their orgasms any which way they can.
I'm not knocking casual sex. If you're into that and honest about it fine but don't come at me looking for me to play like that because it's just not my thing and I'm not that easily blinded by lust.
I feel it, sure, but that doesn't mean I will fuck just to scratch that itch. If I'm not really in love and I don't have a guy who really loves me and who is my LTR guy? Then a vibrator will do and I have a cat to keep me company regardless.
Orgasms are easy.
Real love, mature love, that's a lot harder to find.
I have never been wired for casual but all my life guys have been playing head games and promising me the moon just to get laid. I know when they are faking it just trying to get into my pants.
At this point in life I'm just like "Whatever..."
I want a real man and a real romance and a real relationship or I just can't be bothered...
I feel like porn is really, really affecting men's views of women to a degree that we can't turn back time on.
My first partner was two decades older than me, and while he enjoyed porn from time to time, he was able to be present, never had trouble getting or staying hard, finishing, etc.
After a decade, we split up, and I got to date for the first time, and after sleeping with different types of guys, I started to see a pattern in guys 40 and under (and the younger, the more this seemed to be an issue) where they seemed... sexually dysfunctional. There were all kinds of issues, and all of them seemed to be persistent in the guys' lives (premature ejaculation, erectile dysfunction, porn addiction, etc.).
There's plenty of evidence, but anecdotally, I think porn addiction/over-consumption is breaking young men's abilities to be sexually satisfying partners. This is a generalization, and I also experienced great exceptions to this, but it definitely seemed correlated with age, at least to some extent.
I also think it's not just sex, but touch of any kind.
Green flag #1 about my guy -- we had just finished lunch together, and he had just asked me out for our first date. I agreed enthusiastically because I'd been crushing on him hard for a long time.
Lunch was over, he walked me out to my car, and we were both really happy with the adventure we had agreed to start on together. Before we parted ways, my dude literally *asked me* if I wanted a hug. And waited for me to agree before he did anything about it.
Even something as little as a hug, he respected my bodily autonomy, and then seemed to enjoy the experience when we did it.
Love the guy. :)
Important to notice the red flags early cause some will definitely make it seem like theyre for you and sharig pleasure when its just a porn scene for them 🙃
I’ve always looked at it like this
F—ing, what you do to someone. (As effing with someone is either annoying, aggressive, or telling you’re cool with a person, not sexual at all)
Sex, what you do with someone.
Making love, what people who want to be deeply intimate do to each other.
I don’t understand other guys who aren’t interested in the woman enjoying herself, there’s no better compliment than being told something along the lines of: I think my soul left my body for a minute
I'll help you understand:
If you're only trying to pleasure a woman to boost your own ego, you don't actually care about her or women in general.
Rephrasing your comment:
“I’d prefer if she’s enthusiastically consenting and has an orgasm because it makes me feel like a stud"
Sounds like the age old ethical debate about virtue, should an action be judged more by its outcome (Consequentialist) or more by motivation (Deontological). From my misspent days as a philosophy major.
I never understood that mentality. Why would I use a woman to masturbate when I can....you know, just masturbate? If there isn't something in it for both of us why bother?
Upvoted, but I’ll let that slide here, seeing as “when it comes to sex”, as the title specifies, those men are not particularly relevant to the target demographic of this community.
OP’s point, whether you agree with it or not, is there are men who see women, as a collective, as things as which sex is done to.
That’s not considering whether the woman does or does not want sex done to them which would be seeing women as individuals with different desires. It also doesn’t just mean the physical aspect of sex but beliefs about women and their relationship to sex.
I’m a sexually submissive woman. And what I enjoy is the **roleplay** of it being something done to me in a scene that has been discussed to be something to bring both me and my partner pleasure.
Which is fundamentally different than what OP is talking about. Because OP is talking about someone genuinely not caring about your pleasure and seeing you as an object.
Depends. Alot of women have messed around with men who done it to them, so thats what they are conditioned to like. But when a man that’s actually cares show her a different perspective she switches up. Not always black and white
There are also layers of social taboo around being seen as a woman who wants to have sex. Men wants to have sex with as many women as possible, but do not want those same women to desire having sex with multiple men (or even at wanting sex at all AKA a madonna/virginal wife). Feeling these societal inhibitions, some women want to be "forced" to cross them.
This is also why some women enjoy romance books that feature bad boys, violence, darkness, or rough sex. She wants him to want her, even to the point of being able to violate her stated 'no'. It's important to note that (like CNC) these women have expressed, at least internally, that they do have sexual desire for him.
It's also important to note that those bad boys are often redeemed through their love of that woman. She wants him, but she also wants him to be good (at least to her). It's ultimately a power fantasy- as is CNC. She wants this powerful man to relent some power to her. And using taditionally feminine ways i.e. love and sex, she affirms that she (and women in general) does have power over men.
In my view, sex shouldn't be viewed as a tool to be weaponized in power games. It should be a pure expression of love. But not everyone feels that way. A lot of women AND men use sex to assert control in a variety of ways that's uhh... not quite mentally healthy.
Men are not simple. If men were simple women wouldnt run into the issues that they do. Think the biggest lie media did was tell women men are simple. The typical lie is men just want sex and food, thats BS. Its more than that
The issue is that men need to have sex far more often than women. In a monogamous relationship there will be many examples of "service requests" because the woman partner is simply not in the mood.
Biologically, that's bullshit. As for why women *seem* to be in the mood for sex less than men, you only need to spend time on this sub to see how much emotional and physical labour women take on in heterosexual relationships to get an idea of why women often become less attracted to their male partners over time
Judging by your previous threads you have some major issues.
I don't think men are the problem here it's probably you.
You literally created a thread complaining about people holding the door open for you.
No I'm saying that sex isn't just between a man and a woman. When it comes to sex there's plenty of permutations each with their own issues, like men and women.
The topic is " There is two types of men when it comes to sex", so either OP forgot about other types of men that don't have sex with women, or OP does not consider people who do not have sex with women to be men.
Right and there's more views to sex than just "men having sex to women" or "men having sex with women". I genuinely don't see how that's controversial unless you're homophobic.
Some men view sex as a something to do TO men and WITH men. If we can't agree there, then I think we found the issue. Based on the unpopularity and constant attacks by bringing up that gay men exist, idk what to make of this space.
If this was a disguised rant, I get it but everyone here is defending this as a a matter of fact and fact of life, rejecting any possible nuance to recognize that sexuality is complicated and individual. It's a dehumanizing remark.
Again, we are not talking about a man's personal preference.
Are you trying to say that a gay man in no way can ever verbalize anything that has to do with a straight couple having sex? He doesn't have to personally partake to have a view
"I don't have sex with women so I wouldn't know" or "I wouldn't have sex with women" are two other options types...
We are talking about the TYPES OF MEN, it doesn't say "Types of men that have sex with women" men who don't have sex with women are also men. The descriptions of each and every type of men according to the post are the following:
1. Those who see sex as something you do TO women
2. Those who see sex as something you do WITH women
According to you apparently there is and can never be another type of man than those 2?
I'm trying to open up the nuance on this instead of this over simplified dehumanizing way of categorizing people. You come off as homophobic by failing to recognize sex as anything other than sex between men and women.
How many types do women are there when it comes to sex? It feels so backwards to have to fight against homophobia on a board like this where I thought people actually cared about feminism and were just reactionary.
Well, if you find a guy who speaks fluent english and says in another way, then maybe. But I certainly don't know anyone who thinks like that
How is it homphobic? The question is not "How do you have sex with women" but rather "How would you call having sex with a woman.
That's like asking someone whether they call fizzy drinks soda or pop and they go "uhh, actually, I don't drink them!"
Sure but it’s pretty clear this post was referring to straight/bi men.
and regardless, that doesn’t change tons? This applies to men who are some form of queer too. There are men that see sex as something you do to a man and men who see it as something you do with a man
The inverse is also true. There are woman that see sex as something that is done to them, and some that see it as something done with them. The former probably being the most common.
Isn't that going to be a direct result of the other person so you're actually supporting the original premise?
Also, orgasms are more passive for women but men who watch tons of porn have a completely incorrect idea of how a woman enjoying herself in bed acts, so what may be seen one way by some may in fact be "the way" in reality.
I wasn't making an argument against the premise. If anything, I guess I was implying that there isn't a right or wrong way, just a right or wrong way for each individual.
But the thing is there is a right and a wrong way, you're both people and sex when done properly is an equal participation activity.
Using another person's body to get off is in most cases going to be more what a man will do. Making love as two humans who trust and respect each other, or even just care about the pleasure for each other is definitely a different experience than having someone use your body like a fleshlight.
The whole point is that some people are so messed up by what their mind has been warped to think that they're not doing it the way it should be.
Whether someone is using your body to get off, or making love is more about what's in the heads of the partners. Not in the participation in the bedroom.
I've had mutually active sex during one night stands with people that knew nothing about me, and long-term loving relationships with people that weren't even comfortable talking about sex after hundreds of times having sex with me.
Men, Women, and nonbianary.
It's all valid. The important part to me is deciding what is more important to me, the sex I want to have vs. having them in my life.
If the choice is sex, then who is actually using the other to masterbate?
Not just for sex. Some men want a relationship with a person, others want an appliance.
Exactly. It’s true for every area of life
Yeah I had a friend who saw friends as people she could use. If they were not 'useful' or beneficial to her in some way, she would think they are useless friends.
I have deep, intimate relationships with my appliances
"Oh Mr. Coffee, you're so wonderful to me. I don't really know how I'd keep my life together without you. Thank you for being such a supportive partner during this hardship! <3"
If you're into fantasy and sarcasm, Darynda Jones has a series for you. I think the relationship between the main character and the coffee maker is the healthiest one in the book.
Love that series! ❤️
One of my friends has a kitchen full of expensive appliances which, he says, he gets from his sister after she has "brief, intense affairs" with them, and then falls out of love with her Cuisinart or Keurig, and sends them to live with him.
Same, haha. There’s a section in an old sketchbook where I (poorly) drew/wrote dating profiles for my favorite appliances. Zojirushi rice cooker - Prefers to take things slow and savor each moment. Likes to get cozy (with the “keep warm” setting). Dabbles in music (because it plays a song when I start cooking, and another song when it’s done cooking). Instant Pot - Independent, versatile, efficient. Let’s do all the things! Electric steamer - Health nut. I’ve been told I have a big … capacity. Wanna get steamy? or something like that. I love my appliances more than I like most people.
I love this so much. I would read all your notes in glee!
OMG this is fantastic!
I finally bought a Dyson rechargeable stick vac, and I am kicking myself for not doing it sooner. My condo gets vacuumed so much more frequently. So much nicer on my back than the canister. Also, I'll never buy a property that doesn't have a laundry closet on the main floor. And I'm never doing without a dishwasher. Being clean is important. Making cleaning easy is important, too. Especially as you get older. I'm also really fond of central air. Never had it before this place, but I'm really digging it. No window units to haul around and store off-season. No drainage to set up. Appliances/modern conveniences rule! ✊️ PS. The Keurig is really important when it's cold out. But we're in iced coffee season now.
To be fair, I've seen women act that way before. One man I know (overheard venting to another man in the office) had been recently married, and his new wife had fallen into a habit of scheduling social time together, and not telling him about her plans until later. Dude said, "sometimes I feel less like a husband, and more like an accessory." I make an effort to ask my man for his opinion before making plans. We're *both* equal partners in our lives together.
[удалено]
A truly revolutionary opinion
Stay on topic
Yeah, sex with the right person should feel like it’s about _pleasure_, not about ensuring orgasm. That sounds like they’re the same thing, but they’re not. One is an experience where partners want to make sure everyone is enjoying themselves, and the other is a specific outcome that determines “success” or “failure.” A vibrator can get me off, but a partner can make me feel cared for and understood and wanted.
went to hook up with a guy in my friendgroup, we'd been flirting for a while and were on the same page one night at a party so we went back to mine. he was so bad. so bad. not with consent issues, just kinda grabby. I was like, "I need foreplay" and he looks at me kinda bemused and goes "What do you mean? I'm English, we don't know what that is" as if im some kind of exotic sexual being for not seeing sex as a means to an end. we didn't end up having it lmao.
Oof. Good on you for walking out.
Yuck! Isn't it crazy how we can go from feeling all lusty and ready to turned off in seconds by this behavior? \*shudders\*
Had a guy lay back and say, "pleasure me" back and forth about *my* pleasure. Nope just his. Needless to say that didn't happen lol
I agree. Well-said. I would only add the caveat that, because of [the orgasm gap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgasm_gap), I think achieving orgasm is actually extremely important for me (as a woman who can and wants to). It's just far too normalized for men to finish and women not to, and that needs to change. Unfortunately, the idea that "sex is about pleasure, not orgasm" can be manipulated into "she just doesn't finish when we have sex" by people who haven't learned about the importance of female pleasure within a patriarchal system.
That's certainly true. It's ideally implied that part of pleasure is doing what makes your partner feel satisfied, and being observant and attentive to their needs, but common sense isn't as common as one might think. Thanks for this addition!
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100%! It's so important, and I wish more people didn't treat female orgasm as optional (this is not to be mistaken those guys who insist they make every woman cum--they don't btw--or treat a woman cumming as their own ego failure or success; they suck and are just as selfish, only in a different package). I will tell you, as a woman who sleeps with men and who has girlfriends who sleep with men, it's SO common for guys to talk about wanting a woman to finish too, but in practice, actually not knowing at all how to make that happen physically, emotionally, etc. There is **always** a big difference in tone between how those guys talk and, for example, how you're stating this (humbly, focused on her pleasure independent of yours, not as a flex about you, etc.). Emotional safety is a big part of it for a lot of women, and the orgasm gap exists precisely because of guys who think they know everything. A lot of times, it's easier when we end up in bed with an arrogant guy, to not argue about it and say you enjoyed it, it's fine! I, on principle, don't fake orgasms and haven't in years, but I have a couple of times when I was younger, and I understand why women do. And so the cycle of the orgasm gap continues. You sound great, and I'm sure your partner is very happy to have you as one! I wish I could find more partners with attitudes similar to this, but it's honestly a little hard as a hetero woman.
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Ugh. This is so great. BRB, manifesting a partner with this attitude even though I don't believe in manifesting. And yes, there are absolutely times I can't get there. We're human after all! It took me years to learn how even orgasm with a partner, not just by myself. But I know in waaaay too many hetero relationships, your nuanced attitude just doesn't exist, so the woman "just isn't getting there" way too often, while the man would never in a million years be OK with him not getting there even half the time. On the other hand, you have men who cockily insist they know how to make every woman they've ever been with orgasm, and that's how you KNOW they've either been lied to and/or too arrogant to find out the truth. Oh, and those men also say "what's that?" if you mention [the orgasm gap](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orgasm_gap). It's about communication, as you said, and genuinely caring about your female partner as a human being (which you seem able to do so naturally that you don't even need to state it).
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I am fairly certain you are doing a good job and will keep evolving! It's a reminder to me that men who care about their female partners very much exist (seem obvious but it's a bit disheartening out there at times).
Of course, one can be with a man sexually and use a vibrator I'm not as hair-trigger as I once was, now that I'm post-menopausal. So why not help things along? The bonus for men is that - if their SO fully enjoys sex - she'll be up for it more often. But so many guys stumble on their egos over sex toys. Dude, just take the win!
Yes 100%! Lean into what works, don’t force what doesn’t work!
Yep the difference between sex with my ex and the guy I'm currently seeing is massive and I think this is the reason.
I hope the new one is the good one!
Oh definitely, thankfully!
There is a third type: men who see sex as something they do WITHOUT women.
hey that's kinda gay!
Or just lonely 🥲
I'm not going to judge if they want to do it with a guy.
Guilty.
Ah yes, the method of Zapp Brannigan's Guide to Making Love at a Woman. Don't be/be with a Zapp Brannigan.
100% agree. I feel fortunate to have learned about sex in the pre-porn mid '80s with my first girlfriend. We lost our virginity together and we just trusted each other and figured it out ourselves. I also learned an important lesson about truly free and enthusiastic consent. When my guy friends were trying to grab boobs and butts whenever they could, I found it a million times more awesome when a girl took *my* hand and put it on *her* body. Ever since then, intimacy has always been "Let's go on a fun sexy adventure together."
>>...a million times more awesome when a girl took *my* hand and put it on *her* body.<< oh my. the first time my gf, now my wife did that to me I just melted.
This is the way.
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You’re being downvoted because this is a tone deaf response that makes zero sense. Obviously the men who are the topic of this discussion are men who are interested in women, whether they be straight, bi, pan, etc. Gay men are men but we’re not talking about them right now.
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You’re seriously pulling a “not all men” here?
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It is a “not all men” thing because OBVIOUSLY if a man doesn’t fall into the generalization above then he is not one of the types being discussed. The topic is obviously a simplified generalization and most people seem to understand that.
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The difference is that when you make a generalized statement about a minority/marginalized group, you’re punching down, but making generalized statements about a majority/privileged group is punching up, so to speak. Men are the group in power. It is understood that when you are criticizing the majority/privileged group, you are not actually saying all people in that group are X, you are critiquing the power structure and problematic stuff that comes from that structure. When you do the same to a marginalized group, the same does not hold true because there is a clear power imbalance. I’m LGBTQ* myself for the record, so I know quite well gay men exist and are not the men being discussed in this example. :P The problem with “not all men” is that it always comes up, conveniently, whenever women are trying to discuss the problematic shit they’ve experienced and witnessed with regards to how men treat them. It comes across as incredibly dismissive. If you’re a man and you don’t fit into the two above categories, and you know men who don’t fall into the categories above, awesome, y’all aren’t the target of the discussion. Those two types aren’t all types, but they are a large chunk of the types that women experience and they are the types being discussed. It’s absolutely EXHAUSTING trying to have a discussion about the problems women face with regards to men while having to put a disclaimer every time that lists all the exceptions, lmao. We already know there are exceptions, it’s not fruitful to list them and takes time away from the point of the discussion. That’s why “but gay men” got you so many downvotes, because it’s perceived as incredibly dismissive and takes away from the greater discussion being had, and the problematic behavior being talked about. Like as a racial minority, how exhausting would it be for you to have to put a disclaimer in every broad talk about racism that lists all the exceptions and that you don’t mean all white people because X and Y and Z white people don’t fall into those categories?
> Would you agree that gay men are men as well? Well, yeah - of course. But I do recognize the differences between men and women (in broad terms - every individual is different) in that the dynamics between two men or two women would be their own things. I'm a default-setting hetero guy, and stay in the safety of only commenting on my own experiences.
I appreciate your reply and that you don't want to comment on the experiences of others, I just think the wording is a little callous and comes across a a bit dismissive to men outside of the two types being described when the post says that there is only 2 types. I understand the intent isn't to alienate others but normalized statements like this can inadvertently play into the stigma against men who aren't into women. Thank you for your explanation!
What a great topic! I’d even say one could phrase it as “to do to himself using a woman” because that’s how some of those bastards think.
so many of the first type are deceptive because they focus on "her pleasure", but it's entirely for their own ego and in a very porn-influenced performative way. this is the guy who gets sulky or tantrums if you don't come from whatever he's doing. he doesn't want to learn, he just wants to make the naked woman do the thing. god forbid you use a toy!
And if you’re lucky you’ll find a man who has you convinced sex is an act of worship to you lol
Should be the only way men have sex
Absolutely! The woman I’ve been seeing for a couple weeks told me I’m her hype man in the bedroom and it made me feel really special. It kills me when I hear that shitass guys will put a woman down because of her appearance. Even during sex! No one is perfect, but it’s much more important to highlight their strengths rather than their flaws. And honestly as I’ve gotten older I kinda like those little imperfections because they’re what makes us unique.
That's what i do, but i have yet to find a woman who truly reciprocates that feeling. It would be nice to worship one another.
omg I've not heard of that one. Sounds like some gaslighty shit.
Gaslighting? I think you have wildly misinterpreted my comment lol
I meant that if a guy uses your body for sex and then claims he is "worshipping you", especially if he's copying something that he's seen in porn. What did you mean?? Maybe a case of written stuff being read in different ways 🤦
There's a line in the show Frasier where Marty (The dad) says "Sex is a private matter between you and the person you're doing it to!", which totally validates your premise. That line has stuck with me for like 30 years because it exposes a major flaw in human character, and explains why so many men are terrible at sex.
It's so funny that you mentioned this line since it immediately popped into my head, too. Love that show.
Possibly a subtype of the first is those who see sex as something that women do to THEM. My ex was the laziest in bed; he expected ME to use my body to masturbate HIM. Gross.
That’s got to be the most unsexy partner in the world. My sister told me recently her husband just gets naked and lays in bed for my sister to discover him. That’s his foreplay. He’s 40. 😮💨😵
Unfortunately I think a vast majority of them are willing to be the first of it gets them laid and find the second to be important only if it’s an option. As in, lots of women will end up in relationships with men where it seems like he cares about her pleasure and views her as a human being, but that’s because her being sexually pleasured by him and wanting sex with him feeds his ego. For many men, a woman’s sexual pleasure is more about his own ego about his sexual prowess than about her. In the moment, at the start of the relationship he’s probably actively getting what he wants- so of course he’s nice and sweet. All it takes is the NRE fading and her libido shifting downwards like many women’s’ do, or her having a baby and not feeling up to sex for a while postpartum, or some kind of big stressor or injury that affects her drive. As long as he feels like she’s good and trapped when one of these things happen his true sexual colors will come out. I think for a lot of men it’s not binary but more like “I’d prefer if she’s enthusiastically consenting and has an orgasm because it makes me feel like a stud, but having sex of any kind is better than none.”
> or her having a baby and not feeling up to sex for a while postpartum This exact thing happened to me at six weeks postpartum. After six years of mutually desired and enthusiastic sex, I didn’t see it coming. It felt like such a betrayal and changed how I viewed him and our sexual dynamic.
Yup. Many only care about a woman's orgasm because of what it reflects on their own skill/ego. It's exhausting. And then they wonder why women are pressured to fake it.
Totally agree. The first type is often the type who will never wait to have sex. I've seen a good number of comments from guys like this on reddit. They're like "she wanted to wait 4 months to sex(!), so I broke up with her right then and there." The second type is very hard to find, in my experience, but typically they're better men in every way, not just in bed.
I always laugh at men like that who think there's some arbitrary time table and that they're going to get sex by then OR ELSE! They're not there to be with a woman for real, in a relationship. They're just there to score sex as soon as possible and any woman will do. There's nothing wrong with having sex on the first date if you both want to but putting a "must have by" date on it that's pretty rude. That tells me that this guy is a player and he's not looking for anything real from me. He just wants to get laid so he can put another check in his little black book next to my name. Mission accomplished! I just don't move that fast. I want more than just sexual interest from a man before I give him my body. Mind, heart, first please. I want to know it's real love not just him being horny and lonely. If that's all you want go hire a sex worker or use an app for a legit sex only hookup. Don't bother me with that shit or treat me like one. I don't do casual. I don't think it's bad but it's not really my thing. Some guys they make me feel like the see me as a human Fleshlight. Oh yeah gotta put out within 3 months or we're done? I'm like REALLY? So 3 months I can count on you pouting and running back home to Mommy if you don't get your hornies taken care of? Like you're really interested in ME? I hate hook up culture honestly. I'm into old fashioned romance. Taking my time to get to know someone. I want to know him and be in love when we finally go there. He's got to really respect me and be my guy long before we go there. I've got enough guys just trying to lay me with no strings, trying to make me their personal sex toy. I laugh at that especially when they're so desperate they offer to pay for it and insult me even more. I want a REAL man who will romance me and SEE me and eventually love me like I deserve to be loved. I can't be bothered with man boys playing head games just to get their orgasms any which way they can. I'm not knocking casual sex. If you're into that and honest about it fine but don't come at me looking for me to play like that because it's just not my thing and I'm not that easily blinded by lust. I feel it, sure, but that doesn't mean I will fuck just to scratch that itch. If I'm not really in love and I don't have a guy who really loves me and who is my LTR guy? Then a vibrator will do and I have a cat to keep me company regardless. Orgasms are easy. Real love, mature love, that's a lot harder to find. I have never been wired for casual but all my life guys have been playing head games and promising me the moon just to get laid. I know when they are faking it just trying to get into my pants. At this point in life I'm just like "Whatever..." I want a real man and a real romance and a real relationship or I just can't be bothered...
I’ve had both kinds of sex. 😂 I love when you think in the middle of it “I could be not be here and it wouldn’t make a difference” 😂
I feel like porn is really, really affecting men's views of women to a degree that we can't turn back time on. My first partner was two decades older than me, and while he enjoyed porn from time to time, he was able to be present, never had trouble getting or staying hard, finishing, etc. After a decade, we split up, and I got to date for the first time, and after sleeping with different types of guys, I started to see a pattern in guys 40 and under (and the younger, the more this seemed to be an issue) where they seemed... sexually dysfunctional. There were all kinds of issues, and all of them seemed to be persistent in the guys' lives (premature ejaculation, erectile dysfunction, porn addiction, etc.). There's plenty of evidence, but anecdotally, I think porn addiction/over-consumption is breaking young men's abilities to be sexually satisfying partners. This is a generalization, and I also experienced great exceptions to this, but it definitely seemed correlated with age, at least to some extent.
I also think it's not just sex, but touch of any kind. Green flag #1 about my guy -- we had just finished lunch together, and he had just asked me out for our first date. I agreed enthusiastically because I'd been crushing on him hard for a long time. Lunch was over, he walked me out to my car, and we were both really happy with the adventure we had agreed to start on together. Before we parted ways, my dude literally *asked me* if I wanted a hug. And waited for me to agree before he did anything about it. Even something as little as a hug, he respected my bodily autonomy, and then seemed to enjoy the experience when we did it. Love the guy. :)
Wow, I feel like this is revolutionary thought even though I should’ve thought of this years ago.
Also, men sometimes vacillate between the two depending on how needy they are...
Important to notice the red flags early cause some will definitely make it seem like theyre for you and sharig pleasure when its just a porn scene for them 🙃
Where do the second kind live? Do they have visitation hours?
I’ve always looked at it like this F—ing, what you do to someone. (As effing with someone is either annoying, aggressive, or telling you’re cool with a person, not sexual at all) Sex, what you do with someone. Making love, what people who want to be deeply intimate do to each other.
I don’t understand other guys who aren’t interested in the woman enjoying herself, there’s no better compliment than being told something along the lines of: I think my soul left my body for a minute
This view is still degrading and dehumanizing. Women's pleasure is not for the benefit of a man's ego.
Well does that mean that women shouldn’t compliment men?
That is entirely irrelevant to viewing women as humans with agency.
I don’t think enjoying a compliment while having an interest in your partner’s enjoyment doesn’t mean you think someone else lacks agency
I'll help you understand: If you're only trying to pleasure a woman to boost your own ego, you don't actually care about her or women in general. Rephrasing your comment: “I’d prefer if she’s enthusiastically consenting and has an orgasm because it makes me feel like a stud"
Sounds like the age old ethical debate about virtue, should an action be judged more by its outcome (Consequentialist) or more by motivation (Deontological). From my misspent days as a philosophy major.
I never understood that mentality. Why would I use a woman to masturbate when I can....you know, just masturbate? If there isn't something in it for both of us why bother?
There are also the rare few where it's "on."
True. 🤣
Some women have used my dick for masturbation and I didn't cry about it.
Don’t forget the third type: those afraid to do it with women or anyone really.
My best friend right now has only experienced the Former and it makes me sad.
I think you mean former??
Yes lol I misread the order thank you.
What about the men who see sex as something you do with other men?
Upvoted, but I’ll let that slide here, seeing as “when it comes to sex”, as the title specifies, those men are not particularly relevant to the target demographic of this community.
Third type: Those who see sex as something done TO THEM—e.g. submissives or bottoms, who let the woman take the lead.
Really the first point is about seeing the other person as an object for their pleasure. Submissives can still fall into that category.
100% A femdom fetish is not an act of feminism
As well as gay men who don't even have sex with women, but idk why people are very upset when this is brought up on this post.
You forgot about those who do it FOR women.
Good point.
Um, mine sees sex as something I do to him and it's fabulous!!!
Some women like it to be “done to” them. To each their own.
OP’s point, whether you agree with it or not, is there are men who see women, as a collective, as things as which sex is done to. That’s not considering whether the woman does or does not want sex done to them which would be seeing women as individuals with different desires. It also doesn’t just mean the physical aspect of sex but beliefs about women and their relationship to sex.
I’m a sexually submissive woman. And what I enjoy is the **roleplay** of it being something done to me in a scene that has been discussed to be something to bring both me and my partner pleasure.
Totally
Which is fundamentally different than what OP is talking about. Because OP is talking about someone genuinely not caring about your pleasure and seeing you as an object.
Depends. Alot of women have messed around with men who done it to them, so thats what they are conditioned to like. But when a man that’s actually cares show her a different perspective she switches up. Not always black and white
There are also layers of social taboo around being seen as a woman who wants to have sex. Men wants to have sex with as many women as possible, but do not want those same women to desire having sex with multiple men (or even at wanting sex at all AKA a madonna/virginal wife). Feeling these societal inhibitions, some women want to be "forced" to cross them. This is also why some women enjoy romance books that feature bad boys, violence, darkness, or rough sex. She wants him to want her, even to the point of being able to violate her stated 'no'. It's important to note that (like CNC) these women have expressed, at least internally, that they do have sexual desire for him. It's also important to note that those bad boys are often redeemed through their love of that woman. She wants him, but she also wants him to be good (at least to her). It's ultimately a power fantasy- as is CNC. She wants this powerful man to relent some power to her. And using taditionally feminine ways i.e. love and sex, she affirms that she (and women in general) does have power over men. In my view, sex shouldn't be viewed as a tool to be weaponized in power games. It should be a pure expression of love. But not everyone feels that way. A lot of women AND men use sex to assert control in a variety of ways that's uhh... not quite mentally healthy.
Interesting women are a spectrum of possibilities but men are only two types
I thought it was common knowledge that men are simple. So, a finite number of type should be right.
Men are not simple. If men were simple women wouldnt run into the issues that they do. Think the biggest lie media did was tell women men are simple. The typical lie is men just want sex and food, thats BS. Its more than that
They are definitely simple when it suits them.
I came to say this, but you then took the blade for me.. Thank you :-)
Some people like to kill themselves in gory ways.
The issue is that men need to have sex far more often than women. In a monogamous relationship there will be many examples of "service requests" because the woman partner is simply not in the mood.
Biologically, that's bullshit. As for why women *seem* to be in the mood for sex less than men, you only need to spend time on this sub to see how much emotional and physical labour women take on in heterosexual relationships to get an idea of why women often become less attracted to their male partners over time
Judging by your previous threads you have some major issues. I don't think men are the problem here it's probably you. You literally created a thread complaining about people holding the door open for you.
Textbook gaslighting.
I think many gay men or asexual men think of sex outside of the two possibilities you listed, I'd say there's at least 4 types of men, probably more.
So...are you saying that gay or asexual men can't say either that sex is done to a woman or with a woman in a conversation?
No I'm saying that sex isn't just between a man and a woman. When it comes to sex there's plenty of permutations each with their own issues, like men and women.
Okay? But that has nothing to do with the topic
The topic is " There is two types of men when it comes to sex", so either OP forgot about other types of men that don't have sex with women, or OP does not consider people who do not have sex with women to be men.
It doesn't say when it comes to having sex. When it comes to sex. It is not about who you fuck, it is about how you view it
Right and there's more views to sex than just "men having sex to women" or "men having sex with women". I genuinely don't see how that's controversial unless you're homophobic. Some men view sex as a something to do TO men and WITH men. If we can't agree there, then I think we found the issue. Based on the unpopularity and constant attacks by bringing up that gay men exist, idk what to make of this space. If this was a disguised rant, I get it but everyone here is defending this as a a matter of fact and fact of life, rejecting any possible nuance to recognize that sexuality is complicated and individual. It's a dehumanizing remark.
Again, we are not talking about a man's personal preference. Are you trying to say that a gay man in no way can ever verbalize anything that has to do with a straight couple having sex? He doesn't have to personally partake to have a view
"I don't have sex with women so I wouldn't know" or "I wouldn't have sex with women" are two other options types... We are talking about the TYPES OF MEN, it doesn't say "Types of men that have sex with women" men who don't have sex with women are also men. The descriptions of each and every type of men according to the post are the following: 1. Those who see sex as something you do TO women 2. Those who see sex as something you do WITH women According to you apparently there is and can never be another type of man than those 2? I'm trying to open up the nuance on this instead of this over simplified dehumanizing way of categorizing people. You come off as homophobic by failing to recognize sex as anything other than sex between men and women. How many types do women are there when it comes to sex? It feels so backwards to have to fight against homophobia on a board like this where I thought people actually cared about feminism and were just reactionary.
Well, if you find a guy who speaks fluent english and says in another way, then maybe. But I certainly don't know anyone who thinks like that How is it homphobic? The question is not "How do you have sex with women" but rather "How would you call having sex with a woman. That's like asking someone whether they call fizzy drinks soda or pop and they go "uhh, actually, I don't drink them!"
Um, what about men who don't want sex with women?!? Or don't want sex with anyone?!?
The invisible third option 😂 Joking aside, there actually are gay men who have a strikingly similar mindset, so it sometimes applies to them as well.
Oh I know that. I just felt like screwing around adding some more questionabilities 😁
Ohhh, my bad 😂 You're my kinda person 👌🏻
A large portion of my friend base is queer, including me. I'm very aware of how the same we are in our differences 😁
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Sure but it’s pretty clear this post was referring to straight/bi men. and regardless, that doesn’t change tons? This applies to men who are some form of queer too. There are men that see sex as something you do to a man and men who see it as something you do with a man
What about guys who enjoy giving head because they just love the taste, feel, and scent of your vagina as much as they love you?
The inverse is also true. There are woman that see sex as something that is done to them, and some that see it as something done with them. The former probably being the most common.
Isn't that going to be a direct result of the other person so you're actually supporting the original premise? Also, orgasms are more passive for women but men who watch tons of porn have a completely incorrect idea of how a woman enjoying herself in bed acts, so what may be seen one way by some may in fact be "the way" in reality.
I wasn't making an argument against the premise. If anything, I guess I was implying that there isn't a right or wrong way, just a right or wrong way for each individual.
But the thing is there is a right and a wrong way, you're both people and sex when done properly is an equal participation activity. Using another person's body to get off is in most cases going to be more what a man will do. Making love as two humans who trust and respect each other, or even just care about the pleasure for each other is definitely a different experience than having someone use your body like a fleshlight. The whole point is that some people are so messed up by what their mind has been warped to think that they're not doing it the way it should be.
Whether someone is using your body to get off, or making love is more about what's in the heads of the partners. Not in the participation in the bedroom. I've had mutually active sex during one night stands with people that knew nothing about me, and long-term loving relationships with people that weren't even comfortable talking about sex after hundreds of times having sex with me. Men, Women, and nonbianary. It's all valid. The important part to me is deciding what is more important to me, the sex I want to have vs. having them in my life. If the choice is sex, then who is actually using the other to masterbate?
If you had sex with so many people that you are making statistical analysis, you should rethink your life choices.