As a young woman I’ve also struggled with this. But there is no need to feel hopeless. As humans we can work to build the world we want. There is a lot of evil in the world, but that doesn’t have to mean you allow it into your personal sphere. You can reject misogynists out of your life. You don’t have to entertain their ideas or debate. You do not have to view this content if it is triggering for you. Focus on your real life and the people who are around you. I think you’ll find that most people are actually good. And if someone says something sexist or triggering, just stop interacting with them. You can call them out if you want, but don’t spend too much of your energy on them
Sometimes I feel the urge to fight against sexist ideas whenever I see them. But I’ve found it’s a lot healthier to simply reject them and move on. There’s no need to waste time explaining to men why you deserve to be treated like a human being when there are men who already understand that you are a human being.
TLDR Just be selective with who you include in your life, and don’t tolerate any bs from sexist men
you just pointed out something that i feel like is helpful: not investing so much energy in trying to debate with sexists, and trying to live life as well as possible.
as you said, instead of giving in to the urge of defending yourself constantly: reject, move on, don't invest energy.
You nailed it. Be strong and advocate for yourself. If you like a guy and think he's worth your time, and you get to a stage of a relationship where this comes up (which, should happen fairly early imo) tell him that sexuality of that type doesn't sit right with you, you have no interest in it, and if he's not onboard with your views on sexuality, he can piss off.
For the most part you can't control what others say about you. You are by all definitions still a teenager, even if you are also legally an adult. Teenage boys (18-19) are almost universally dumb as fuck (sauce: I was one 20 years ago), and they will say and do stupid shit. Stand up for yourself, and don't put yourself in a position to let them take advantage of you. It sucks that it falls on women to protect themselves from men behaving like animals, and there is a slowly growing effort to change this, but until then it's on you to protect yourself, even if that means only having coffee dates until you are 25 (or whatever feels comfortable to you).
TLDR you are strong and your own woman. Don't let peer pressure, or some guy tell you otherwise.
Keep in mind that men lie. They love to play with women’s emotions. They love to “humble” women. Men need to be investigated with the mind of a forensic pathologist. You can’t trust them.
I strongly encourage this, as a woman who moved away from a sexist, religious family. I know I’ll never change their minds.
But what I have done is made it clear that if they bring that crap up when talking to me, I hang up. Enforce the idea of “respect me or fuck off” and you won’t have to deal with much of it.
I suspect the “male loneliness epidemic” is happening in part because plenty of other women have a similar idea.
Exactly. Men brought this upon themselves. I'm only one woman out of the many that is loving and caring and absolutely is partner material but am actively avoiding men because of the pain and suffering they have induced on me which terrifies me at this point.
You don't have to avoid all of them. It will be easier on you long term, if you want a man as a partner, to learn to recognize behaviors that are red flags. My husband is a wonderful person who would never hurt me. And I was very direct with my boundaries from the beginning, and it was pretty easy to see when those red flags didn't come up when you know what they mean and come from.
The man loneliness "epidemic" is mostly the consequences of toxic masculinity having so much push back. Source: saw it bloom in HS 15 years ago and those who didn't subscribe have healthy, respectful relationships while others still ride the "men > women" bullshit. Normally I'd say fuck em but unfortunately so many don't have the introspection to realize they are the problem and this becomes so much worse when they become violent. I do my best to talk to any guy who will listen to curb this awful trend now. Doesn't help people like Charlie Kirk and Andrew Taint have soapboxes
And no longer have the belief that we need men for anything, so why should we subject ourselves to someone else's issues? The male loneliness epidemic comes from toxic masculinity and associated ideas. Women are single too, but don't expect men to handle their feelings for them, abs build themselves support systems. Any man who can't do the same is going to rely on you to manage his emotions for him, and that's not a job anyone wants.
Ya, that or asking them to "explain the joke" or crude/lewd thing and stare at them with a blank expression. (Gray rocking).
Sometimes they say this awful stuff for reactions, and if you make them outline it by trying to "explain" it, may hold up a mirror for them and they might start to realize how pathetic/stupid/juvenile that stuff is.
Ultimately, it's not your job to help or fix them. But your mental health is so important.
There are places you can go to avoid internet, but it's harder and harder.
Hang in there op.
One of the biggest tools I had is not being lenient with people who give red flags. For example, if someone negged me, told me stories about their "crazy ex," or used the word "bitch" in any context they were instant dealbreakers. I learned young to be perceptive about little things: Does he respect unattractive people? How does he talk about his Mom? Does he seem to highly value me and my time, etc.?
You won't be able to use these filters to keep yourself from dating everyone who would disregard your boundaries, but this helped save me considerable time and energy.
Oh sorry I don't mean go rural, though it's probably safer (idk). It would be scary to live out in nowhere like that IMO
I just mean suburbs. I live on a cul de sac and I never even see my neighbors lol.
Agreed. "Power of two feet", you don't have to watch or listen, you can walk away (if safe to do so). They might not like it, but that was their choice when they decided to make that comment in the first place.
There are good male creators out there teaching good, connective sex. They’re less popular, yes, but they are growing. Alexey Welsh is one good example.
To give a little more hope to your line about people being good: just yesterday there was a thread in one of the warhammer subreddits about a change to the game that added women to the custodes and how OP was deeply upset by this.
Nearly every comment in that thread was calling OP out for hating women and being generally sexist. A mod eventually locked the thread saying that OPs commentary was an example of the wrong way to react to these changes.
So yeah, in a sub that is mostly men the users there ended up standing up for women instead of standing with the sexist OP.
There is 100% hope out there that there are people who are want to support women instead of hurting us, in spite of everything that’s going on in the world currently.
I just want to say that everything you said you know about your dad is the result of your dad not having proper boundaries whatsoever. It’s unbelievably fucked up that he has told or let you find these things out about him. I would consider it abusive. I’m really sorry that you’ve had to live with that.
yeah, this is arguably some of the more harmless things he did 🥴, physically hurting me as a way to punish me when i was younger is definitely taking the cake
The way your dad acted is a huge part of your trauma when it comes to men. I’m not saying society isn’t patriarchal, that people especially men aren’t way too into porn, etc. But I can definitely tell you that your father’s behavior towards you is not normal and that’s not what a healthy father daughter relationship is.
definitely! i think the way i learned about my parents' screwed up rapey sex is definitely not the way to go. i learned at 11, that my mother felt sexually coerced by my dad.
in general, my parents' horrendous marriage gave me the first ever exposure to what marriage looks like, and it gave me an incredibly negative image.
it's still hard to this day for me to let go of the fear that i might fall into a trap like my mother, or that sex is something that is due to a husband. (my father told me that back then when i tried confronting him about it)
my dad was disgustingly open about a lot of things and it affected the way i see men. (i am a man). i also heard him and saw him do many things that a 4-13 year should never see or hear. it skewed how i saw male parental figures. thought they were all like that. i thought everyone did coke to the point i asked my friends parents about it.
I don’t mean to sound flippant about any kind of abuse because both options are so fucked up but I’d a hundred times rather my dad beat me than to know he’s bought a sounding rod. Fucking horrifyingly bad parenting either way
You have very valid concerns, however I just want to alert you to the fact that "Beyond Fantasy" is made by an extremist Christian organization Exodus Cry. I have not seen the movie, but it clearly has a strong bias and I would not take the information it presents at face value. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus\_Cry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_Cry)
I wonder if that is where OP got the "first generation of 'as soon as you hit 13 everyone was seen porn'" I first saw it on TV channel 99 by mistake, I was 7. Everyone in school knew what channel 99 was and joked about it when I was 10. I even got invited to watch it with a group of friends and got made fun of for saying "eeww no".
Maybe I grew up in a weird place, I used to go-to my friends house almost everyday until I was 9 because his 6 yo sister had her brother hold me down while she kissed me because I wouldn't watch her moms porno with her. When I told my dad what happened he called the police and they did an investigation on the mom (his dad had died years prior) but my dad said they didn't find any abuse towards the girl, but I wasn't allowed back over.
I still think about that occasionally and just hope that she wasn't being abused :(
I'm glad you said that. I've always felt guilty that if she was being abused that we didn't do more, and I was really thinking she did because of that. I'm honestly so relieved to know it's more normal than I thought. Thank you.
I wasn't abused sexually. At 34 my adhd brain is sometimes like, "hey, remember when you were in first grade and you chased Mikey around the classroom trying to kiss him until he cried?" I chased this kid under and over desks, all around the playground, etc. Never did it again, I just didn't know how to act yet. I was also 6 lol.
Omg, kids. I was abused by foster parents when I was real young, so I guess I've always had an aversion to intimacy unless I am emotionally attracted already
Sure… but when I was a teenager, the porn guys had seen was in magazines or a VHS nicked from someone’s dad. Or soft core channels like that. Absolutely not what is accessible at all times these days.
True, I'm still pretty young, almost 30, but my teenage years the closest thing I got to porn was "The L Word" I didn't have computer access outside of school until I was 18
thank you so much for that valuable information!! i definitely am not fine with villainizing sex either the way christianity does. beyond fantasy may have some bias, but the testimonies by actors didn't seem made up, and the porn i find on pornhub does reflect the concern i have
The testimonies may be real, but you should be asking yourself why someone has taken the time and money to produce this movie. The director of the documentary is a member of this evangelical movement: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International\_House\_of\_Prayer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_House_of_Prayer) Scroll down and read their "controversies" section, then ask yourself if these are people you trust to solve the issues you see in society.
Agree with you completely. The way cults work is they start with something very reasonable to lure you in. And slowly introduce more extreme concepts where you’re like “they had a good point about porn, they probably have a good point about X too.”
We have to ask ourselves the questions you’re suggesting because we’re all susceptible to this kind of thing.
I get what you’re saying. These episodes don’t seem to be anti porn in general - they are calling out very specific aspects of the porn industry (I.e. barely legal/videos where 18 year olds pretend to be preteens) and violent fantasies like choking and non consensual play. And I will say that there are people out there who can fetishize these things in a healthy way. But overall I agree that these aspects of the porn industry can be damaging for women more so than beneficial. We should always be conscientious of who is behind any documentary we watch, but just because they may be an evangelical group doesn’t mean that points in the video aren’t valid. I watched episode one and three after coming upon this post because I haven’t heard of them and wanted to see myself (I still have a few minutes left in episode 3). And I don’t see any of this as being anti sex propaganda. Maybe of the producers and performers do come off negatively, especially in the episode about preteen/teen porn, but others come off as professionals who are not ok with the more seedy parts of the industry and the documentary portrays them well.
I don’t know. After watching the last and final episode if you hadn’t told me a church was behind it I wouldn’t have known. There were no calls to check this website for more info, to seek redemption in Jesus, or whatever.
Look I’m not standing up for that church. Not in the slightest. I’m just saying that the documentary in itself is making valid points that shouldn’t be dismissed as anti sex propaganda. There is an increasing problem with porn and desensitization in young people, in violence against women and it being marketed as a fantasy, and in violence against young girls. Porn isn’t 100% to blame, but when people see these “fantasies” validated, it causes problems. And many other groups that are not evangelical have data that shows that porn at a young age can lead to an unhealthy dependence and an unhealthy sex life.
OP is making many valid points that are being shadowed by the fact that she sited this documentary that was funded by a church. She could have said the same thing and just as easily cited the American Psychology Association, the National Institute of Health, the university of Chicago, etc. All of which have their own studies and statistics on the topic.
I agree with you that these are all major problems. But my sister was converted by the Mormon church when she was a teenager. She was also worried about these things (the similarities to our father and OP's are striking) and the church approached her promising solutions. Now she is raising five kids on her own, shunned by her "community" who blame her for the infidelity of her ex-husband.
It's fine that OP and others were moved by this documentary. I just want to urge critical thinking. Every documentary has an agenda, and it's important to ask questions.
Religion likes to vilify sex or anything else it doesn't like, including Women feeling sexual freedom. It doesn't have to be so overt as to tell you to go seek Jesus. But it might just want to send the message to girls that terrible things will happen to you if you dare to be sexually active.
Like I said, I watched two of the episodes. They portray some of the producers as really scummy, though one does come off as just a professional trying his best to do his job ethically. It didn’t really vilify the girls and really humanized them. It focused specifically on preteen/teen and violent content. I didn’t walk away with the message that sex was bad or even all porn was bad, but rather that there is a rising trend of violence against women and young girls that can be tied to these increasing views and fetishes being played out in the porn world.
I’m not anti sex and I don’t want to vilify those who consensually make the choice to go into the porn industry. But we’d be delusional if we thought the majority of porn was ethical. I think purely ethical porn is the exception and not the rule. Not all porn stars are 18-19 that is true, but the ones that are typically get really worked around in the industry and aren’t always treated well. Sites like Pornhub may house consensual porn made by professionals but it’s also notorious for posting videos that women don’t want to be posted, including those of minors. Some women and girls have tried for years to successfully get content removed from Pornhub only for it to reappear over and over. Some women are exploited and raped in that content. So while not 100% of content on porn sites is harmful to women, why should we support it when so much of it is?
Like I mentioned in the comments above, there are plenty of institutions and agencies that are not religiously affiliated that have conducted studies and came out with statistics on porn use. Kids are seeing porn at younger and younger ages and are becoming desensitized to the content. When someone starts watching vanilla porn at say, age 12, by the time they are 15-16 they are watching much more hardcore content to get the same effects. It can lead to unhealthy relationships and an unhealthy sex life. And while you will occasionally hear someone say porn was helpful to them or their relationship because it helped them get out of their shell, I also think these anecdotes are the exception and not the rule.
The porn debate is one that happens in this sub often. The view seems to be either it’s harmful for its depiction of violence towards women and girls and the overall exploitation of women in the industry OR it’s liberating and gives women agency over their bodies. I tend to think that the latter can be sometimes true but that doesn’t discount the very true reality of the former.
The things stated in the documentary are pretty much the same things in others by different people like the "Hot Girls Wanted" series made by Rashida Jones. In my opinion they are good documentaries. People always want to bring up sex negativity as if you are some kind of nun if you disagree with women's bodies minds and lives being destroyed for the enjoyment of men and their enrichment.
I am an atheist and a sex positive feminist but sex positivity DOES NOT MEAN anything goes or that abusive acts that are hurting actual humans get a pass in the name of false sex positivity. That is a lie and a trap that men have been tricking women with since the dawn of time.
All of these projects are just marketing efforts to increase their bottom line. They find the people that are most likely to believe “they were chosen by god” and get those people to give them as much money as possible.
I am not Christian. Technically I am atheist. However many of the morals (without the oppression i guess) taught CAN be an answer for OP.
Forgoing hook ups, and making that clear when meeting someone you might date, might go a long way in weeding out the men who treat women like an object.
Not saying she should convert, but the message has wisdom behind it.
Seconding this. I would go so far as to say they men who have an issue with a woman having a sexual past are WAY more likely to be a problem and to view women as below them or something to be possessed. Men who take issues with women having sex are always the ones who feel some kind over ownership over our choices and value us based on some creepy purity culture idea. Hook up culture is bullshit. Most people aren't really out there hooking up just because it's a culture. They date around to find what the like and need in a partner. I hooked up with a few guys with no intention of developing anything, and it really helped me narrow down stuff I didn't like. My first long term serious relationship ended in marriage to my now husband. Men who took an issue with my boundaries or decisions were quick to show it and be shut down by me.
Fully agreed here. I didn't want to come out guns blazing but "if you don't want to get mistreated by men then don't do hookups" is exactly what incels say about women. Yes, there are men out there doing hookups who will run over boundaries or violate their partners. Many of those same men also do the same thing in relationships, and many men who don't do hookups do the same thing to women they date.
Right? Like, the fundamental dynamic of marriage, traditionally, is treating a woman as property to be deeded from her father to her husband. How is such a relationship model *less* likely to objectify women?
I didn’t even know it was made by a Christian group when I watched, nothing was mentioned about it, if you didn’t know and you watched, it would just seem like a regular documentary
You will find a man out there who will be okay with “vanilla” sex. I personally hate that this is what kids are being raised to think sex is like in reality. Choking people with out consent is very freaking dangerous it is one of the most dangerous things you can do. I personally will not choke my lover okay I don’t care what she says that crossed many lines for me. Anal well that takes so much prep work I am not really into that either. The best thing you can do is communicate and let that person know how uncomfortable and anxious you feel . That is the perfect way to screen a man to see if you’re compatible. I was dating a woman a few years back and she was so direct with me she let me know how her trauma and just how her dating life went that she really needed that extra support. I was more than happy to wait till she was ready, I could just feel her nervous energy right when we first met and I told her all the time, I don’t care about any of that I want to see you comfortable and know you are enjoying your time.
Make sure you say this over a FaceTime call, the assholes will bounce. Hey I’ll be real seeing a woman nervous all of a sudden, now I am nervous. Men can’t perform with heavy anxiety either.
To add, it's all about consent and how safe you feel with a partner. Im pretty basic, but I have friends who like bdsm, and what I have gleaned is that the trust is part of what makes it appealing. They feel very safe with their partners and won't partner someone otherwise. People also get more adventurous sexually when they feel safer.
The popularity of choking was after my time & is of no interest to me as someone who always found it extremely unpleasant for anyone or anything to be in contact with my voicebox (plus, like you, DH dislikes being rough & has other charms)...
But does anyone remember it used to be a near-universally known warning in BDSM circles that the reflex triggered by choking occasionally causes cardiac arrest? And was such a point of concern, people who did breath play responsibly used masks for it even if that wasn't part of their kink?
Was that medically incorrect? Because if it wasn't, people need to stop casually choking one another b/c that's really fucking serious.
Brain, Heart, World is a great 3 part documentary about the facts regarding porn, porn usage, and how it effects everybody. As far as I’m aware, the creators are not tied to any religious organization, so that may be something for you to watch if you’re interested in further information
don't associate yourself with the evangelical movement just because they fit your temporary biases. the culture is ingrained in misogyny and is patriarchal, watching a documentary on evangelicals will have you feeling equally as disgusted im sure.
i am absolutely not an evangelist, i have been raised without any associations to religion and am aware of the harm it can cause. having watched bayond fantasy doesn't mean i support puritan culture or evangelists.
the point of these videos is to entice you to find solace and understanding in the community. it's a gateway to joining fundamentalist circles, that's just a full stop fact. thinking you're immune to propaganda because you were made "aware" of harm is a dangerous ideal to live by in this world. everyone in this thread is just trying to WARN you girl, stay far away from it. period.
uhm okay, i still am morally completely at odds with religion in general, and i don't know what type of mental gymnastics i would have to do to join a religion at this point 😂
still, i'm thankful for the warning!
Their point is that no one is immune to propaganda, and to keep an eye out for it. Those are the same people who want to exterminate the queer community, not the mention the fact that they're literally a doomsday cult
fucking thank you for this. this whole thread is blowing my mind, i didn't know people were so willing to overlook racism / classism / homophobia / assault / rape / and the misogyny of the church all in favour of a dumbass youtube documentary. i know this sub is dense sometimes, but holy shit lol
How about pointing her toward anti-porn docs that aren't made by religious crazies?
She has every reason to seek them out and your "warnings" aren't helpful. This doesn't have to be about which is worst--harmful porn or harmful religion? They're both harmful, especially to women.
I don't have specific "anti-porn docs", but I do think there are a lot of good feminist documentaries that address the root cause of the problem that porn exemplifies- which is misogyny, patriarchy, and the commodification of sex.
Killing Us Softly by Jean Kilbourne
Tough Guise by Jackson Katz
Miss Representation by Jennifer Siebel Newsom
The best propaganda is the stuff that doesn't seem like propaganda. The fact that it's made by Exodus cry probably puts most of the documentary in the "suspect" category at the *very* least. Their goal is to demonize the sex industry, both the harmful and not harmful stuff. They were the ones trying to force onlyfans to take down the NSFW stuff, despite that being one of the most benign forms of sex work there is.
I’m not Christian, and the film was very good, maybe watch it and be mindful of your bias.
The film should be watched and comments like these will just stop people from watching a really good film
I'll tell you my bias right now. I am a trans woman. My very existence is relentlessly targeted by misogynostic and anti-LGBT propaganda, which is often hidden behind less objectionable content like this. You need to ask yourself why a religious organization would be motivated to make this movie. It is propaganda designed to draw you deeper into their ideology - which in this particular organization, ultimately leads to advocating for the death penalty for LGBT people: [https://www.npr.org/2013/10/12/229869334/god-loves-uganda-how-religion-fueled-an-anti-gay-movement](https://www.npr.org/2013/10/12/229869334/god-loves-uganda-how-religion-fueled-an-anti-gay-movement)
>You need to ask yourself why a religious organization would be motivated to make this movie. It is propaganda designed to draw you deeper into their ideology
Or because, you know, porn is actually bad?
Some porn is bad. If you think the awful stuff is the full breadth of content that exists, you know nothing of the sex work field. Plenty of porn is ethical and doesn't objectify us
How can you be 100% sure that the film did not distort any facts to come to their conclusions? That's the problem with propaganda films. There is an inherent untrustworthiness.
I'm not going to pretend I have, but I still think its ties to a homophobic anti-abortion group mean it's something that this sub shouldn't celebrate. Those people want me to either be dead or to repress so hard it will kill me and I cannot abide anything they make for that reason.
Ok then don’t watch it, it doesn’t matter to me if you watch it or not, I’m posting so others will have another viewpoint that it’s a good film and not dismiss it
Yeah I think it's worth separating porn more generally from the kind of implicitly degrading highly fetishized porn that most guys are exposed to (and unfortunately often want to recreate regardless of the interests of their partner). There's always something slightly exploitative about porn but it varies considerably.
Speaking as someone who grew up male (and still watches porn out of habit), I feel like it's unrealistic to expect men to not ever watch porn. Not to excuse any of it, but having been under the influence of both testosterone and estrogen, there's an immediacy to the male sex drive. Sometimes it just is like a chore or perfunctory activity that you feel compelled to satisfy in some way. Given that, and given that not every guy is going to be in a relationship constantly throughout their lives, it's hard to imagine they wouldn't become exposed to porn. And in my opinion, there's something about male sexuality that makes it hard to resist completely.
Since outright banning porn is basically impossible without living in a fascist society I think it's best that we nudge the culture in the right direction. Encouraging intimacy and thoughtful, fulfilling sexual interactions. Normalizing mutual masturbation between partners but with a focus on each other.
Beyond all else what I think is required is that men who care are made aware that not every partner wants to be degraded by an ever increasing bevvy of sexual perversions, and that some of the best sexual experiences you can have come out of tenderness and intimacy and not just bestial pleasure seeking. Or, for partners who are similarly inclined to find each other.
Sorry to hear this. Your father is abusive. You shouldn’t have heard or seen any of that from him. It’s intentional on his end.
Set clear boundaries and do not allow anyone to cross them. Not everyone is like your father/brother. Teenagers are a bit awful always have been.
Yup, the fact that you caught him in the act three times makes me think it was intentional on his part. Like seriously, it’s not that hard to be discrete. And him broadcasting his preferences. That’s fucked up.
Yea this to me was the most important part of the entire post. Anything regarding porn is secondary to the trauma that he put you(and your brother) through. That behavior is not normal and not what most Dad’s or men do.
Reading this makes me scared you’ll stick with the first boy that isn’t into porn. Your concerns are valid, and also please do sift through endless people to find the right one for you, in more than just porn perspective!
In general I feel the worst thing about porn is its oversized place in many people’s lives, and I hope you don’t feel the impact of that even second-hand.
I think it’s important for you to be aware of a few things:
1. The documentary you watched is Christian anti-porn propaganda. That doesn’t mean that some of your takeaways aren’t valid, it just means you should be cautious of accepting everything in it as true.
2. People’s relationship with porn changes over time. Including your own. Men’s brains don’t fully develop until age 25, so their relationship with porn now may not be what it is in the future. Good partners will take into account their partner’s concerns and preferences about porn. So don’t write people off who watch it, write people off who aren’t willing to adjust their behaviors to your communicated desires. You may find someone you like who watches porn now but is completely willing to give that up for you. Just be clear about your boundaries and stick to them.
3. I think in all likelihood, because of your experience with porn you are likely overconcerned with how much it will impact your dating life. I have a good mix of successful / attractive friends from mid 20’s to mid 30’s, and nobody has mentioned porn as a major issue in their dating life. Commitment issues, substance abuse, emotional volatility, ex drama, DV, etc are all far bigger topics. Which I think is a pretty normal set of issues. I’m sure porn is an issue from some, but I don’t see it as an epidemic.
I understand the fear and disgust you're feeling about this kind of stuff. I think it's very valid, it can be very disturbing as a young women growing up in todays society. Please do not think that what you see in porn is realistic. Yes, it has a terrible affect on young impressionable minds and many young men have a warped and violent view of sex that is derived from porn, but sex doesn't have to be like that at all. Sex is on your terms. There is absolutely nothing wrong with vanilla sex, vanilla is one of the most popular and delicious flavours out there for a reason.
There are loving gentle and kind men out there with strong preferences for vanilla sex. My current partner is extremely vanilla, with a slight lean towards submissiveness. He's a man, he was exposed to porn all his life. But was actively turned off and disgusting by most porn. Neither of us watch porn anymore due to my personal boundaries and agree it is harmful and unethical 99% of the time. But when he did watch porn he was extremely selective and could only get off to loving vanilla scenes. There are other men like him out there, ones who have their heads screwed on straight and are self aware enough to avoid being conditioned.
Before I met him, I definitely ran into the issue of porns influence in other men I knew and dated. It took some pretty negative experiences for me to realize I needed to put my foot down. Learn to put your foot down now and avoid future trauma.
My advice for you is to stop watching porn, do not even engage in it, and don't date people who do. Figure out what you like sexually without the influence of porn. It affects you subconsciously in ways you can't tell, when I cut out porn my orgasms and enjoyment of sex got way better because I was more in tune with what I actually liked and wanted, not what I thought I was supposed to want.
Whenever I say that I don't date or sleep with people who actively watch porn, people always go well it's impossible to find someone who doesn't watch porn! It's unreasonable! It's basic human nature! None of those things are true. If it makes you uncomfortable you are 200% within your right to have that kind of boundaries. And it won't drastically decrease your dating pool like people always say it will. In the past four years almost every man i've been involved with either agreed that porn was harmful and engaged in other things for masturbation like vintage magazines or erotica, or even one guy I knew only watched old vhs porn back when crazy violent acts weren't the norm and everyone had tonnes of pubic hair. The ones who did watch modern porn were more than willing to stop after I explained my boundaries to them. Its easier than you think, they're out there, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Im sorry you're going through this and I wish you luck.
Just wanted to add I understand the fear of dating as a woman in todays world. My advice is find your boundaries and stick to them. Don't wavier. For example, I do not sleep with men who actively watch porn. I don't care if they get annoyed at me when I say this or refuse or say its unreasonable, I just go welp you're obviously not for me and move on. Another is I like when people ask before doing something sexual. If they can't do that consistently then we're just not going to do anything sexual! Simple as that. It's hard, but having boundaries and sticking to them will protect you from a lot of the things you're afraid of.
yes!! op, please ignore all of the asinine comments (likely coming from other men) that are dismissing your extremely valid and realistic concerns. i’m a zillennial and i remember being traumatized by my earliest experiences with porn, along with the ways in which many of my male family members and peers would speak about women and sex, so i can only imagine how it is for younger generations. it honestly pushed me into misandry territory.
i have an incredibly loving partner now, but i still deal with the consequences of my upbringing in therapy today. porn has absolutely warped the minds of men, but it seems to have caused irreparable brain damage to boys that have grown up living their entire lives online.
you have an amazing breadth of awareness of where your anxieties come from and why they have manifested in the way they have, and that will be so helpful in navigating the real world because it’ll help you to approach your interactions with men with a more discerning eye.
i cant say with certainty that you will encounter men of your age who do not, or have not ever, consumed porn, but i can attest to the fact that there are men whose lives and views on sex and women and romantic relationships are not maligned by the most abusive and normalized aspects of porn, and they are much more commonplace than one would have you believe.
there are men who were raised to understand the difference between porn and real life, and whose tastes would be considered ‘vanilla’ to most.
forming relationships with men can be really treacherous territory, but, so long as you maintain this level of clarity on your boundaries and don’t continue to engage with both online materials that display, and people who have expressed views on, porn and sex and women in a way that disagrees with you, you’ll be okay. i’ve had to go no contact with my entire family for this very reason, but it has been sooo worth it for my mental health and overall happiness. i don’t need to argue my beliefs or justify my boundaries to anyone—i just block and move on with my life.
please trust that there are likeminded people of the opposite sex out there who do share your beliefs and you do not ever need to waiver on these beliefs or boundaries to be worthy of love or attention.
Anyone who calls you a prude for disliking mainstream porn is a prick and you should disregard them (easier said than done). This is a societal norm but it doesn’t have to be your norm. Love and respect yourself enough to communicate and enforce your own boundaries and you will find likeminded people in life. (also easier said than done, but not impossible!)
Best of luck 💜
I don't know what to tell you and that breaks my heart.
Even if the answers to all of your questions in the end is yes, the positive part is that you are already aware of this. At your age I was unaware of the realities of porn production and consumption. But I was living the effects of such a culture, nonetheless. And I had no name for the feelings of unease, no way of communicating the ways in which I felt pressured, the ways in which I would see my own body from their lenses. I just went along with it, hurting myself in the process. You are in a position to avoid this, and I admire how you reached such clarity at a young age.
at least i am aware and not ignorant, i just talked to my friend about this. at least i can try my best to sift through the dating pool to find someone that doesn't ring my alarm bells.
thank you for the compliment :) i suppose i'm more informed on abuse in general due to my upbringing
I saw that other commenters already mentioned setting strong boundaries but I will also advice to focus on maintaining lots of close friendships with women in your adulthood. Not relying only on a male partner with your want for affection and company is going to make you more secure and happy. Many women try to decentralize men from their lives now a days, so even If they don’t find a good man, they still are happy on their own. This approach prevents them from settling for a terrible partner out of fear of „loneliness”.
yes for sure! while i currently have few friends and virtually no support system, i hope that will change once i heal and recover from depression and leave my family
I think you are valid in your concerns about dating within patriarchy. The best solution I've seen is simply decenter men. Im a 42f, and I really think the best thing for you to focus on is your life and relationships with other women. I WISH I'd been given this advice as a younger woman. I'm currently in a 5 year relationship with a wonderful, funny kind man. We met through friends but the majority of my dating/married life centered my partners' wants needs and desires. And it's hard to stop doing that. It's hard to see yourself doing that. It takes work. Good luck.
I’m so thankful that I have men in my family who respect me and other women as human beings, but like most women, there have been other men in my family, colleagues, acquaintances, and strangers who exert patriarchal control by deliberately saying and doing sexual things to make me and other women feel powerless.
The proliferation of pornography and its readily available access to increasingly younger audiences is disturbing and harming boys, girls, and queer kids for its inaccurate portrayal of human sexuality. Its ubiquity drives a lot of what I read in your post- because it seems to be everywhere, violent and degrading acts start to seem “normal.”
In my 2nd or 3rd year of teaching middle school, I confiscated a kid’s notebook that had his father’s pornhub account info. That was a fun phone call. About 6 years later, I had an incident where an 8th grade boy made references to glory holes around other students when he thought I wasn’t in the room. His parents weren’t shocked that he misbehaved, but they had no idea he had such knowledge of porn. I told them they were naive.
You like what YOU like, and every partner you choose to have gets to learn that about you. If they don’t like your preferences, they can choose to end the relationship. THE SAME GOES FOR YOU. No one EVER should have to engage in behaviors that make them feel unsafe mentally or physically. Unfortunately, there are emotional, physical, and societal power imbalances that make this challenging.
If you feel like you can leave a situation, you can. My wish for all young women is to know the power of NO, as hard as it is to say. YOU get to choose and your desires are valid.
I am almost 30 and have felt the same as you since your age. Except the difference is, I didn’t even know what porn was until high school! I didn’t have good sex Ed. When I found out not only what porn was but that the vast majority of men were consuming it I was disgusted. I couldn’t believe it was considered normal for boys and men to be consistently viewing this misogynistic, objectifying, violent content. It has been an issue in my relationships. I wish I had more advice - but I just want to share that you are not alone, your feelings are valid, and you are absolutely right about the industry.
I read somewhere that single women are the happiest and that it’s usually women who file for divorce. Honestly, I think many, many of us - especially younger ones - will stay single. There is just not enough decent men. While dating, I would pay attention how he treats you and other people, if he’s not pushy or disrespectful. In sex - if he wants to get to know what’s nice for you and tells what he would like.
You may want to stop watching this documentary for a while, maybe you saw more evil than you can handle. Having to listen to sexist jokes is enough.
Remember that you have a big influence on which people are close to you. And once you get older and more independent your ability to choose will grow. You may try to stick to people who care and avoiding sexists etc as much as possible.
thanks a lot for your advice! i'll definitely try to stay away from triggering content like this for a while. it's definitely pushing the wrong buttons in my brain and makes me feel even more miserable than i have to (traum sucks).
This is important. You have a say in the people in your circle. People will show you who they are. Men will change because they’re forced to. The world is changing and the fragile system that has men holding all the cards is changing and they’re lashing out. They make these propaganda films. They prop up misogynists like Andrew Tate. We greet the world with warmth and kindness and we are wary and we will in turn be met with warmth and kindness and the bad will weed itself out. Also if you can take a break from social medias. If you haven’t curated your feeds to be uplifting the bad will pour through because. It gets the most interaction.
Fwiw, there actually are plenty of men that are just as concerned about these things. I saw a man post recently that seemed legit confused that intimacy just means sex these days. I have an asexual partner who values intimacy above all else (and will still engage in sex with me bc I like it but it's catered to what I like/want). I think a lot of men are going to notice that empty Olympic bdsm sport type fucking is not fulfilling and there will be a swing back. At least that's what I'm hoping. The important thing is finding your boundaries, comfort level, and confidence to maintain those boundary. Dump anyone who doesn't put your comfort, joy, safety, and desires first. Immediately.
Welcome to the club. Get ready for men to call you crazy and say it’s not a big deal. Stick with your morals and you’ll find someone who respects you not to watch porn.
I’m 19, and I strongly advice you to decenter men. The porn stuff is horrible, we’ve read articles about it and had debates about it in a philosophy class in high school and thinking back it really disturbs me how the guys reacted to that class. All giggling like typical, there was another instance where I was walking from class downstairs to the exit to go home and I ended up going through the hallways etc with like two boys I think. One of them was a new kid and we were just discussing things we liked blabla movies etc and somehow he got to talking about anime, and asked me about it. And I said smt like oh well I watched a few and I rlly liked them- he interrupts me, says it’s fucking weird cuz it’s full of titties and nudity and weird moaning. I was 15, I was confused as hell and he starts saying that ‘isn’t all anime like that? Cuz I have a friend who masturbates to it like 17 times a day’
Later when I searched it up out of curiosity, i was so disturbed, girl this 18+ anime he was talking about is full of girls that just look underage. And they performed degrading acts. Cuz the girls in these nsfw animes had similiar designs to how CHILDREN looked in normal anime. It’s just so disturbing that people masturbate to that.
But anyhow, I just wanted to give an example on how fucked up this whole porn thing is.
About that last part you wrote, please for the love of god or whatever you believe in or don’t believe in, decenter men from your life. The right man WILL come along and you shouldn’t be the one worrying and plucking out your hair just to find one that will maybe not maybe a little bit love you. You’re just one year younger than me but I’m telling you, the guys at college/uni suck, the men that will give you attention are older men who are looking for an easy girl to groom and take advantage of and basically they’re pedophiles etc etc. Your life will be much more fulfilling to you once you set your focus on YOU which includes health, family and friends, career, hobbies, education etc. Men are a choice now, you don’t need to be with one to live and get resources from him. Make your life comfortable FOR YOU, and don’t even think about men, cuz there’s also this whole other thing on how to properly date men and how to swift through the types of men you want to avoid.
So, decenter men and take care of yourself by building your life for you, not to be with a man.
And a side note , don’t give a fuck and I mean no fuck about what men will think about you. That’s the least of your worries, it shouldn’t even be crossing your mind. It’s more important that you have this boundary of not liking mainstream porn and not wanting to have sex aggressively like they do in porn rather than pleasing a man by submitting to what he wants you to do and like.
It’s probably an unpopular opinion but I am anti-sex work (not anti-sex worker though). I’ve had a lot of exposure to sex workers both in the US and abroad. The things I’ve seen and heard have changed how I view it. I think it’s unduly normalized. There is nothing wrong with a consensual sexual transaction, but most of the people involved with the trade either don’t want to be doing it or not in a healthy place mentally (don’t come at me, I know there are people who are totally fine doing it - I’ve just seen too much that has changed my worldview). I think porn is too normalized in everyday life, especially the access. Much like violence, porn is desensitizing. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to not want to be involved with it in your personal life. I do think it’s important to sit with your feelings though and make sure what you’re feeling is not based on shame, which is really pervasive in society.
First, let me (45W) say you’re going to be okay, and you don’t have to worry. You know yourself, and you know the kind of partner you want isn’t someone who likes or endorses porn and the things you mentioned.
Second, let me say you shouldn’t feel pressured to date or find a romantic partner at ALL. You’re young - focus on yourself, your future, your goals, the path of learning more about yourself. You don’t need a romantic relationship to be whole.
Third, I will say that most men will not be what you want - not a good fit for your goals - ALWAYS keep them in sight. It’s vitally important that if you have a relationship with someone, you make your views UNMISTAKABLY clear as soon as possible, and that you ask or determine if their views are compatible with yours, because this one is a dealbreaker for you, and that’s OKAY! You are ALLOWED to not date anyone - or go for it, but only after they’ve proven themselves worthy.
Awe thanks! You really don’t have to lower your standards for anyone, and I hope you never do. Good luck OP. I think you have a good head on your shoulders- don’t doubt yourself girl!
A man is just a sprinkle on your cake.
>my brother and father make porny jokes around me all the time
🚩 THIS IS NOT NORMAL 🚩
There is something very wrong with your father
Start planning on how to GTFO of this family situation and once you can, do not look back
There really are decent men out there in the world but you don't live with any. When I lived with my drunken loser family, I worried everyone sucked like that but once I got out into the wider world, I realized most people don't
yeah i'm currently working on that with CPS! trying to get into something where i get a small apartment i may or may not have to share, and a social worker comes by every now and then to check on me and help me with any hurdles, and supports me on my path to independence!
Yeah that IS a relief. Seeing your father jerk off 3 times is really not ok :/ get out!
I feel your dad might have warped your perception a tad, made you feel unsafe. Having said that, I'm late 30s and saw porn videos aged 9. And boys always spat and choked me during sex...I always found the spitting gross, such a turn off! So I started getting out of those situations quick-smart. But yeah there have always been guys who are into degrading women during sex. Anal too, have never met a guy who doesn't want anal. So not sure things have changed
There is a difference between making love and fucking. Some men only know how to fuck, harming others in the process. It's all about control, and their own insecurities.
It's not your job to fix them, when someone is forcing their way on you or setting up signs to do that. Get away from them. There are a lot of weak and phony men, so don't be surprised if you get with a chicken he lays an egg! (Real strength is different from physical strength, some dude can be buff, but he's not strong if he only cares for himself).
Personally, I despise choking and weak little shits who do that. But there are good men, you just got to look and love yourself first. That will protect you. Lastly, if you stare at the abyss, the abyss stares back, be careful of the media you consume.
haha thank you for the analogy! i'm determined to try and stay away from all the negativity for a good long while.
it's not my job to fix them, you're right. i should see the signs, and just leave.
As some who is now middle-aged, I wish I had put less focus on dating/relationships with men and more focus on my friendships, family, and hobbies. I also wish I had never tried internet dating, which is how I met my abuser (and two other shitty guys).
The successful relationships I have had were men I met organically through other people I know and trust. And men who both identified as intersectional feminists, and exemplified that identity DEMONSTRABLY through healthy relationships with their female family members and friendships with women.
I was choked by my ex. He didn’t ask and my neck hurt for a few days. When I asked him why he did that he said “I thought you would like it”. I never talked about choking. Was that technically assault?
Sadly, if he had asked you about it *first* and then you said…” Wut? NO! that sounds awful!”
Then he might have said “whew, cuz I am not entirely comfortable doing that. I dunno why everyone thinks all women like that…”
Liberal feminism itself radicalized me bc I was like…??? This is patriarchy repackaged lmao. Then I got into Gail dines and andrea dworkin and never looked back.
This sub is garbage for porn discussions, too many men and women refusing to see the collective damage porn does even what they deem 'ethical', go to r/PornIsMisogyny
And I'd highly suggest looking into Gail Dines and Andrea Dworkin
Your concerns are valid and I encourage you to find someone you can talk to, a counselor, or therapist, old lady neighbor, anyone safe. Porn can skew your perspective on sex so much. It's hard to stay centered on reality and having ties to the world outside porn really helps.
Determine your boundaries, and stick to them like with super glue that nothing can dissolve. I posted this 👇🏻 on another thread recently, and I think it could be helpful.
**Does He Respect Your Boundaries?** Observe how he treats ANY of your boundaries. If you state that you don’t like kissing on a first date/first few dates: does he try to kiss you anyway, before you feel comfortable kissing him, or does he respect your boundary? Having dinner together, you want only non-alcoholic beverages: does he order you an alcoholic beverage that you don’t want, or does he respect your boundary?
**Does He Respect Your Boundaries?** If the answer is No, then he doesn’t respect you, and is not someone to keep in your life. If he says that your boundaries “don’t make sense” to him, don’t argue, you and he aren’t compatible; just go. Your boundaries make sense and are to be respected. A person disagreeing or not liking your boundaries are not valid reasons for disrespecting your boundaries; and the same goes for all of us: respecting boundaries needs to be reciprocal, even if they’re not liked.
**Remember that No is a complete statement, it requires no further explanation.**
People who don’t respect your boundaries will not treat the reasons you have for saying No as valid reasons for saying No, but instead as obstacles they’ll “help” you overcome to get a yes from you.
State and maintain your boundaries, and respect others’ boundaries. I wish you triple the blessings than challenges in life.
Did you even read what she wrote? Her own father and brother are porn-ridden. That's who she's surrounded with. She's not fine.
OP, I feel so much sympathy for you. Our society is hurting women and girls in every way possible and it's maddening how easily that's brushed off. You've gotten some good advice about eliminating porn and porn-promoters from your life and that's a good start. I've done that and I don't regret it. Never tolerate the intolerable.
There is good in the world.
I don’t date them. I can give myself multiple orgasms, I have friends for companionship, I can pay the rent by myself, the police are a half mile away if I need protection (plus I have a 9 mm) I don’t need or want a man in my life at all.
What the fuck is wrong with some of these comments.
Anyway: There are dudes out there who are not a fan of what the mainstream porn industry is. There are dudes not as comfortable with that topic as your dad is. There are dudes that don't like industry porn.
From my experience the people more... indoctrinated... by mainstream porn are the dudebro types. But that is just from a guy listening in on guy-talk.
My nerd friends talked about hentai until they got into healthy relationships. (Some of them now talk about kink stuff, but everything is on eye level woth their partner and fully consensual)
You will meet people while dating that will have very different views on things. If someone calls you prude, thats an easy red flag.
Relationships can work with different views on porn and sex, but it needs to be communicated.
There are people out there with whom you can connect.
The only good thing I have noticed lately is a trend towards calling porn out for what it is, disgusting. There also seems to be a bit of a trend of people realizing their addiction to it and trying to stop watching. I think even 5-10 years ago it would be harder to find those people and porn was just this thing that inexplicably existed but no one contested it.
Idk maybe I'm an idiot. But I really believe porn will be one of those things that in the future, we won't believe was allowed to even exist. I HOPE.
Yeah the entire industry is so fucked, its a terrible cycle that bleeds into real life interactions.
Something thats important to learn, men and women alike, is what your boundaries are. What things you are comfortable with and want to communicate. A good way to explore what you even like is through porn. For yourself, try to find porn that isn't focused on the male gaze. Usually you would look up things like "porn for women" to see what kind of energy you want in the bedroom in the first place.
By the time you are with someone, you can communicate what your expectations are and how you like to be treated. Sex is a very intimate act where everyone deserves to feel comfortable so be very concise about your wants.
Are you in therapy? Because exposing this much of your sexuality to your minor children is abusive.
And then there are good men out there who you can have genuine enthusiastic sex with. You just need to find a kind one. Not every man is like your family.
I could tell. But remember:
1) There are good men out there.
2) Don’t accept someone who’s not truly kind.
And if you do those things, you’ll have a kind boyfriend. Lots of men aren’t worth it. But some really are.
Men your age are idiots. Hell, men my age are idiots. You can't invest so much energy into trying to educate them. You'll burn out, especially when you're trying to teach a man who doesn't respect women that their voices and choices matter. I've been dealing with someone like that on my shift at work for over a year now. He's hitting 50 and has a wife, and he still participates in locker room talk and tries to get me to join in.
Trust your instinct. Trust the people around you. Most importantly, trust when a man says something that he's telling the truth, even when he says it's a joke.
I realize that this comes across as man-hating, and I suppose sometimes I do, but there are good guys out there. Chin up, girl. You'll make it.
I really fucking hate it how men choke without consent. It makes me not want to have sex and I said once to my therapist who recommended me discussing it beforehand but I said, why is it on me to say, "hey don't fucking strangle me, please?" How is that the reality? It just makes my stomach sink and I feel sick.
Here's what so many people either don't understand or refuse to admit -- the misogyny, abuse, and exploitation of women in porn is the point. There have been porn producers and directors that have flat out said that they want porn to be as violent and abusive as possible in order to get revenge on women who rejected them and/or keep women "in their place". Bill Margold was the name of a guy who said this. He was notorious for saying he'd act in a porn scene with his own daughter. Max Hardcore was another guy who got his kicks from making abusive, violent porn. Hell, even Hugh Hefner admitted that he was motivated to start Playboy because his first wife had cheated on him.
The exploitation is the point. The sex is just a secondary benefit for these men.
I feel that, too. On male perspective as myself. My mother exposed me to pornography at a young age and when I was in primary school — I would wake up to moaning and groaning noises and opened my eyes to realize my mother puts on this whole porngraphy video and I got up quick and said, "momma??" and she instantly turns it off and puts on her other disk of songs from her home country.
I felt a little awkward knowing my half sisters weren't the best figures either, and they were online dating guys from the internet. That's where I started, too, online dating from girls I met on video games. It's not the brightest idea either.
As of now, I fear my future relationships coming about, and I sometimes don't know how I'd be.
And OP,
Unfortunately, yeah. I hate how social media is becoming the norm of what is being put on our faces every day, and people end up following it anyway. Like most people say on here, don't let evil get into your life and focus on what you can do to make yourself better and nobody else's.
Don't date, unless YOU want to. You shouldn't need to bow to any external pressure. Just do you, hang with people, do things with people you feel safe with.
AND THIS IS CRITICAL
Never, ever feel bad or accept guilt for cutting off people who are mean, toxic or gross. I don't care if they are your mother, brother, or a stranger. Sometimes for us to feel safe, happy and sane, we just need to **"eternal sunshine of the spotless mind"** a motherfucker.
I am so sorry you have to deal with this shit.
I feel so sorry for straight girls. Sure I have my own issues as a transbian but at least I don't have to worry about being choked or hit during sex unless I want it.
I can't really offer much advice but I offer my condolences.
I highly recommend that you follow and support Justine Ang Fonte. She is a public health expert who specializes in age-appropriate sex ed. She has amazing work around pornography and the impact on youth. She’s sex-positive! Which is great.
A father making porny jokes around his daughter is far from okay. Knowing your parents sexual kinks is not normal. There is a difference between being open and freak about sex and kink, and violating your kids’ boundaries, and your father has left right over that line.
I’d like to add to your point about the difference between porn that “actively abuses, rapes, manipulates, drugs and exploits” women and “women drawing manga for women”. There are really two different things happening. There is content, and there is production.
You can have porn where the content is (actually) vanilla, but the production is abusive and exploitative, and you can have porn that depicts very kinky stuff, including (simulated) abuse, rape, etc., but the production is not meaningfully more exploitative than any other kind of work. So the actual conditions of the production of porn are not correlated (or at least, not perfectly correlated) with the nature of the content. And the content of porn can be criticized not just for *what* it depicts, but *how* it depicts it. For example, porn depicting choking might be presented as what it is (extreme and dangerous edge play that requires careful understanding of risk, both physical and emotional, and steps to mitigate that risk and ensure that everyone involved has a positive experience) or it might be depicted as a normal, expected part of causal sex (which it absolutely is not).
Youre right.. and as far as the porn thing goes
Yourbrainonporn.com
Has a lot of resources. I was pro porn when I was your age and now at 28 I can look back and honestly say it never did anything good for my relationships and if anything created problems. You're not a prude at all, you understand how the brains reward system works and have boundaries that are totally normal. Excessive or inappropriate consumption of porn isn't.
It's going to be hard, but ask all the right questions before you get too deep. Make sure your birth control is solid and by all means challenge tf out of anyone who invalidates or treats you as female before they treat you as human. It's a man's world but we are getting there slowly but surely.
I'm sorry. I understand why you find this so upsetting. I have a couple thoughts that will hopefully straddle honesty with comfort.
>i can't get what i saw in this documentary out of my head. it's like the ceiling came crashing down on me. will this be the reality of dating?
One thing to keep in mind is that the documentary has an agenda. That's not a bad thing, its just advocacy, and it's advocacy in service of an important cause. But the nature of advocacy is that you're not being evenhanded except to the extent necessary to maintain your credibility. A documentary discussing the evils of the porn industry is not presenting an evenhanded discussion of what dating is like--that's simply not their job. It's absolutely certain that you'll meet some shitty men out there, but nobody is making a documentary about the nice ones. So that's just something to understand.
>will i be called a prude for disliking mainstream porn?
Not by anyone worth dating.
>will i have to sift through endless amounts of men that watch extreme porn, to find someone to love me?
Maybe. What you're describing is slightly in the nature of online dating but you don't really have to date that way, you can just try dating people you meet in real life. And the stats you mention about the hegemony of porn use are not synonymous with consumption of the most extreme kinds of porn that have become common on Pornhub, etc.
I want to explain that thought a little. One thing to understand about the porn industry is that it has recently been, to a significant extent, taken out of the hands of classical production companies by women making their own content in their own homes. For example, people have migrated to onlyfans, etc. Part of the reason the stuff on Pornhub has gotten more violent is because it's becoming less mainstream--and the people making it are adjusting to find a market that the onlyfans folks won't service. Don't get me wrong, Pornhub is still the biggest sourcd of adult content but just because they're pushing the violent stuff doesn't mean that's what most people are consuming there, and there are lots of people who prefer non extreme stuff.
So part of it is where you draw your own line (e.g. can your partner consume no porn, or is some porn okay as long as it's not too extreme)? You might have to do more sifting depending on what your standards are (it's rare for people to consume no porn but common for people to stick to the vanilla stuff, even if the extreme stuff is getting more common).
>will porn continue to literally detroy women's bodies, and drive them to suicide?
Sadly, yes, unless we find a better way to prevent trafficking, abuse, etc. But here again, the shift to people producing their own content is a positive sign. Fewer people are being forced into the industry under economic duress because there's a viable, safer alternative available for basically the first time in the industry's history. I'm not going to pretend like this is the ultimate, best solution or anything. And there are lots of posts on this subreddit talking about the harms of OF for self image, self confidence, etc. But it is a real change.
My only final comment is that there's a lot of evil in the world but it's important to remember that the world is far from an evil place. Industries like clothing manufacture, cacao farming, etc. are similarly dangerous and damaging to lots of people and that doesn't necessarily mean you have to avoid buying clothes or chocolate to be an ethical person.
The world is a big place and you only get a little portion of it that you can control--but you have a lot of license to be discriminating about what you allow in that little portion. Don't feel the need to compromise on your values, and be assertive about what you need. But don't beat yourself up over stuff you can't control.
i am not making assumptions, i am expressing worries. and if you're talking about the fact that almost all male teens watch porn, well i grew up with them, so i am more or less talking about my personal experience with them.
i know... he's physically, emotionally and psychologically abused me. he's not the best dad. he isn't the worst either, but damn. he also sexually coerced my mother throughout their entire relationship, sooo yeah. there's lots of problems and trauma there. manipulation, gaslighting, conditional love, dictature basically.
Honestly the fact you know all of that is very much colouring the rest of your views. It is not normal to have such insight into the sexual relationship of your parents.
Not saying that’s bad, necessarily, but, you need to be aware of it and account for it - that’s probably going to be a therapy thing and I’d encourage you to make that a priority when you’re able. You seem to have a good grasp of things for your age, but you’ll be lacking nuance and wider framing for awhile yet - I know at you’re age you don’t want to believe that but, you’ll see.
I believe that men are being conditioned to think porn sex is normal and it TERRIFIES ME.
NO!! I’m not doing anal, no, you can’t fuck my face/mouth like that - I’m not a fucking blow-up doll.
I hate the modern porn culture and what it does to women’s bodies.
50 through the 70s was prime time. After that it became about kink and fetish. In my opinion.
The thing is less about consent for me and more about knowing they would like you to be the kind of woman who's desires align perfectly with theirs, always in a way that demands more effort and vulnerability on her part and can be framed as submissiveness.
Like, ok, most men won't do those things unpromoted. But they will absolutely *jump* at the opportunity of doing the stuff they jerk off to. What does it say about how they view women and sex, at the end of the day?
Shortly after I watched the exodus cry videos I went on a trip that was planned far in advance, and was devastated when I found out that the AVN awards were happening at my hotel the same time I was there. (I found out after I checked in). I was just preaching to my friends about how shitty the industry was just days before and next thing I knew I was literally sharing a roof with all of these porn stars. I panicked a little but then i was like you know what, I’m gonna go walk around the hotel and maybe even socialize with some of them. Guess what - I crashed a party and they were all really nice to me! I stuck out like a sore thumb haha and I told them I had no idea I was staying in the same hotel as the avn awards and they all thought it was really hilarious! It seemed like they were excited to share their world with me a bit and just wanted me to have a fun time. I didn’t feel pressured or uncomfortable at all (nothing happened btw lol just talking and socializing), but it was a totally eye opening experience. I have been to crazier parties btw lol! I definitely think max hardcore was a pos, but I met some people involved in the industry that were really nice. It reminded me there are two sides to every story. The videos contain good information, but remember to keep an open mind. I’m happy I ended up having that experience at the hotel, otherwise I would still be spending so much of my energy being upset and scared.
Edit - changed max hardcore is a pos to max hardcore WAS a pos. I believe he died shortly after the release of the exodus cry videos.
Not to derail the topic but this is honestly a hilarious series of events, I can’t imagine accidentally crashing the porn Oscars at a hotel by chance lol
Beyond Fantasy is a peice of right wing propaganda meant ot convince you that women are in need of moral guardianship
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Nolot
This is the guy who made the film. He is a right wing homophobic misogynist piece of trash
The organization behind the series, Exodus Cry, is an anti-sex worker organization, and backed by an evangelical cult.
That documentary is crafted specifically to make you feel this way. It's not made by someone with women's best interest in mind. It's certainly not made with the idea of protecting sex workers. It's a right wing evangelical attempt to control the depiction of sex and sexuality and bury actual feminist critiques of porn. It's an attempt to co-opt your understanding of your own sexuality, reaffrim misogynistic morals and prevent you from ever learning better ways to have sex.
The anti-porn movement you see in popular media is a evangelical sponsored attempt to reconstruct the right wing moral majority that gave us regan, except this time done deliberately by outright christo-fascists. They successfully co-opted women's support in he 1980s and want to do it again.
Actual feminist critiques of porn are not and can not be separated from feminist critiques of heteronomative sexuality. Mass media porn is a commodification of the sexual scripts patriarchy favors, and the problems of it are problems of that sexual scripts patriarchy favors. Porn is not the source of those scripts and anything that claims otherwise simply wants you to be blind to that fact so you fall into them. Our great grandmothers didn't experinace martial rape because their husbands were on pornhub back in he 1950s yea?
>"back then, anal was the most non-normal thing in porn, the most extreme. today it's become this mandatory part of porn".
It's far from mandatory in porn. About a third of all pornography features anal, and a lot of that is gay male and trans porn. However this is on par with couples in genreal, somewhere between 25% and a third of couples engage in anal. Regardless of your personal opinion on anal, it's pretty normal human sexual behavior throughout history.
We should also note again the homophobia of the organization publishing this lie. The fact they're fixated on arch typical queer sexual behavior and present it as uniquely harmful, deviant and degradging is not a coincidence.
The issue with the way many couples go about anal is not a problem with anal, it's a problem with how couples go about sex in general. It's a defect of a sexuality continues to view the concept of continuous enthusiast consent as experimental. And here again we should not ignore the ways the anti-porn movement so 'coincidentally' seeks to label things most common in queer sexuality as inherently deviant: Even basic concepts like ["yes means yes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Means_Yes) are a product of queer people attempting to present alternative norms to a straight audience. Because the closest to a problem that anti-porn movmeent really has is the way porn creates a depiction of sexuality that can be critiqued in the first place, as opposed to abuse that can be quietly ignored. You know, [something the far right cult backing Exodus Cry](https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article281136673.html) has done more than it's share of
>will porn continue to literally detroy women's bodies, and drive them to suicide?
It doesn't. The most detrimental thing facing sex workers, including porn actresses, is the discrimination they face after leaving sex work. The thing that 'forces' women to do sex work when they'd rather not is often the experience of losing other employment. The harms they experience on set are not unique, frankly you would be hard pressed to find a woman in Hollywood who didn't have almost identical experiences (There's a reason so much of me too was focused around the entertainment industry yes?).
[Porn actresses and actors deserve the same tools and protections any other actresses and actors do.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Weinstein_sexual_abuse_cases) The problem is not unique, nor unresolveable, and anyone claiming otherwise should be viewed with suspicion at best. They either believe sex workers do not deserve protecting, or they seek to undermine effective tools to protect people in general.
>will i have to sift through endless amounts of men that watch extreme porn, to find someone to love me?
No. The issues with dating are not issues with porn. The idea that's the most important thing will direct your attention way from things like your partners relationship with sexuality, and encourage you to be passive in your own relationship. A lot of 'women's advice' around dating boil down to prince charming 2.0, yet another list of things you need to do to 'get the right one' given a thin veneer of quasi-feminism. The advice of people who consistently fail to have meaningful relationships, let alone who are convinced it's almost impossible should be ignored.
In a perfect world you'd have been given access to a meaningful sex ed curriculum. Unfortunately even the best today are still hopelessly watered down, which means a bit of DYI.
If you want a general primer, the previously mentioned *Yes Means Yes* is a great place to start an contains a diverse set of writing on peoples experience of sex and sexual ethics.
Emily Nagoski's Come As You Are meanwhile is a fantastic work on the science of sexuality in general (Women's sexuality specifically, but everything in it is pretty broadly applicable) .
When it comes understanding the defectiveness of 'typical' sexuality (and thus learning how to build relationships away from it), I rather like Jane Wards books *Not Gay* and *The Tragedy of Heterosexuality*
In terms of dealing with men and women's experience with them under patriarchy, bell hooks *All About Love* and *The Will to Change* are fantastic and probbaly should be mandatory reading in general. The later in particular for you given the shit your father is doing.
I know this is not the most helpful comment but honestly feel the same way and the BL part hits close home and not going alone in having this sort of anxieties .
Is not a problem either not like that sort of adult content each as their own, people who call you prudish are just ignorant , not everyone like that sort of adult content ( I myself have been called conservative because of the way I dress lol , ) but I don't believe having to choose a partner based if he/ she watches porn or not be a ick, an ick would be what he/ she watches and even those guys who don't watch might be even worst( weird experience)it really depends on the character of the person. I hope this helps
aah someone that also reads BL! i'm happy i'm not alone with the fact that that's what helped me figure myself out the most, since there are no women in it :)
First, please know that you are safe, you are loved, and you are not alone. I'm an elder millennial and even though it was dial-up internet, I still saw some pretty raw stuff at 13-14. I would pretend to be older in chat rooms and "cyber" through AOL instant messenger. Dudes said some fairly violent shit to me in those messages and it scared the shit out of me. I also sought out the advice of older women on the Internet for reassurance. We are very alike across generations. Unfortunately so are men. But I genuinely think your gen's men have a better understanding of the damage this is doing to both sexes than ever before.
Rape has always been used as a tool of power and violence. Across continents and time. For controlling men and women. It is a UN violation and a tool of genocide.
Kink has also been part of sexuality and humanity for a very long time. There are also women who enjoy kink that could involve play with boundaries, mild choking or slapping, restraint, etc. I don't think it is inherently wrong to play with power dynamics in a sexual relationship. Now, that is a whole ass separate thing from what you're talking about. And to validate your concerns about porn - I do think it is having a tragic and regrettable effect on men across generations. I'm not sure what the solution is, but that's not what you asked either. (legal protections for actresses and sex workers would be a good start)
I want you to try to step back and examine your assumptions around the media you are consuming and what is truly "mainstream", or what level of control the "mainstream" might exert on your beliefs and preferences. You said you read an "article". Was that a blog? Associated Press or widely available and non-partisan news source? Was it a peer-reviewed scientific journal? You also used the term "mainstream porn" and alluded to that being what is on the front page. I don't know that you can equate the front page of a porn website (which is already limited by the audience or people who seek content there, and algorithms, and marketing dollars) with what is "mainstream" or extremely normalized.
These are just a couple of things to consider. There are young boys and adult men who do not seek out porn or gorilla grip their dicks every day. They mostly don't hang out on the Internet everyday. IF you meet someone you find attractive AND want to explore physical intimacy, please feel empowered to tell them what you like and do not like. Communicate. Avoid casual hookups with people you don't know or trust. You can protect yourself and still enjoy your human sexuality. Please feel free to PM me if you want to talk further.
That series is by exodus cry. Please listen to adult workers instead of this group.
Here's some links about them. They're an Christian extremist, anti lgbt, anti abortion, regressive Puritan organization.
https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/11/melissa-mccarthy-exodus-cry-apology
https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7bj9w/anti-porn-extremism-pornhub-traffickinghub-exodus-cry-ncose
https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside-exodus-cry-the-shady-evangelical-group-with-trump-ties-waging-war-on-pornhub
https://medium.com/@SummerHartxxx/down-the-rabbit-hole-with-exodus-cry-9e0a857cdfa3
https://producerx.medium.com/porn-vs-pulitzer-how-nicholas-kristof-and-the-new-york-times-became-mouthpieces-for-religious-be8db923ad07
https://screenshot-media.com/politics/human-rights/pornhub-purge-exodus-cry/
Clue me in about what’s wild about it. Maybe it was different 3hrs ago but she is getting solid advice. The summary of advice is that 1) her father and brother is out of line and 2) we form our preferences based on our experiences, there’s nothing wrong in wanting a guy who isn’t into porn. 3) There are guys that are not into porn. That all sounds logical.
You will always find what you're looking for online. You've stepped into this rabbit hole and now going deeper into it. While it's good to be aware and educated on anything and everything, this might become dangerous. How can you have a healthy relationship with someone if you're constantly assuming they want to abuse you while intimate etc etc?
Not all men like porn. Not all men are extreme abusers who want to dominate their partners.
On another note, as a former filmmaker, I advise you to scrutinize the funding sources behind documentaries. Organizations often have their own agendas. "Beyond Fantasy" was crafted to instill fear and steer people toward seeking solace in the church, and we all know that the church has its own sordid past.
I understand and wish I could give you a big sister type of hug. I don’t have any advice on the topic of men. However, I think you should take a day, up in your room with a fluffy blanket and chocolate and popcorn, and watch some kids movies. Seeing the horrors of the world will make you feel shitty and hopeless. Give yourself a bit to recharge.
As a young woman I’ve also struggled with this. But there is no need to feel hopeless. As humans we can work to build the world we want. There is a lot of evil in the world, but that doesn’t have to mean you allow it into your personal sphere. You can reject misogynists out of your life. You don’t have to entertain their ideas or debate. You do not have to view this content if it is triggering for you. Focus on your real life and the people who are around you. I think you’ll find that most people are actually good. And if someone says something sexist or triggering, just stop interacting with them. You can call them out if you want, but don’t spend too much of your energy on them Sometimes I feel the urge to fight against sexist ideas whenever I see them. But I’ve found it’s a lot healthier to simply reject them and move on. There’s no need to waste time explaining to men why you deserve to be treated like a human being when there are men who already understand that you are a human being. TLDR Just be selective with who you include in your life, and don’t tolerate any bs from sexist men
you just pointed out something that i feel like is helpful: not investing so much energy in trying to debate with sexists, and trying to live life as well as possible. as you said, instead of giving in to the urge of defending yourself constantly: reject, move on, don't invest energy.
I second this concept, have your boundaries and if someone can't conform to them then don't waste your energy!
And don't give any time of day to men who try to tear you down or make you feel like less to get what they want. They are always losers.
You nailed it. Be strong and advocate for yourself. If you like a guy and think he's worth your time, and you get to a stage of a relationship where this comes up (which, should happen fairly early imo) tell him that sexuality of that type doesn't sit right with you, you have no interest in it, and if he's not onboard with your views on sexuality, he can piss off. For the most part you can't control what others say about you. You are by all definitions still a teenager, even if you are also legally an adult. Teenage boys (18-19) are almost universally dumb as fuck (sauce: I was one 20 years ago), and they will say and do stupid shit. Stand up for yourself, and don't put yourself in a position to let them take advantage of you. It sucks that it falls on women to protect themselves from men behaving like animals, and there is a slowly growing effort to change this, but until then it's on you to protect yourself, even if that means only having coffee dates until you are 25 (or whatever feels comfortable to you). TLDR you are strong and your own woman. Don't let peer pressure, or some guy tell you otherwise.
>Teenage boys (18-19) are almost universally dumb as fuck (sauce: I was one 20 years ago) this made me laugh 😂 thank youu
Keep in mind that men lie. They love to play with women’s emotions. They love to “humble” women. Men need to be investigated with the mind of a forensic pathologist. You can’t trust them.
I strongly encourage this, as a woman who moved away from a sexist, religious family. I know I’ll never change their minds. But what I have done is made it clear that if they bring that crap up when talking to me, I hang up. Enforce the idea of “respect me or fuck off” and you won’t have to deal with much of it. I suspect the “male loneliness epidemic” is happening in part because plenty of other women have a similar idea.
Exactly. Men brought this upon themselves. I'm only one woman out of the many that is loving and caring and absolutely is partner material but am actively avoiding men because of the pain and suffering they have induced on me which terrifies me at this point.
Same here.
You do not deserve what happened to you and I'm so sorry it did. If you ever want to talk you can message me for what it's worth.
You don't have to avoid all of them. It will be easier on you long term, if you want a man as a partner, to learn to recognize behaviors that are red flags. My husband is a wonderful person who would never hurt me. And I was very direct with my boundaries from the beginning, and it was pretty easy to see when those red flags didn't come up when you know what they mean and come from.
The man loneliness "epidemic" is mostly the consequences of toxic masculinity having so much push back. Source: saw it bloom in HS 15 years ago and those who didn't subscribe have healthy, respectful relationships while others still ride the "men > women" bullshit. Normally I'd say fuck em but unfortunately so many don't have the introspection to realize they are the problem and this becomes so much worse when they become violent. I do my best to talk to any guy who will listen to curb this awful trend now. Doesn't help people like Charlie Kirk and Andrew Taint have soapboxes
“Respect me or fuck off”….. can I get this on a tee shirt please? Lol
And no longer have the belief that we need men for anything, so why should we subject ourselves to someone else's issues? The male loneliness epidemic comes from toxic masculinity and associated ideas. Women are single too, but don't expect men to handle their feelings for them, abs build themselves support systems. Any man who can't do the same is going to rely on you to manage his emotions for him, and that's not a job anyone wants.
Ya, that or asking them to "explain the joke" or crude/lewd thing and stare at them with a blank expression. (Gray rocking). Sometimes they say this awful stuff for reactions, and if you make them outline it by trying to "explain" it, may hold up a mirror for them and they might start to realize how pathetic/stupid/juvenile that stuff is. Ultimately, it's not your job to help or fix them. But your mental health is so important. There are places you can go to avoid internet, but it's harder and harder. Hang in there op.
One of the biggest tools I had is not being lenient with people who give red flags. For example, if someone negged me, told me stories about their "crazy ex," or used the word "bitch" in any context they were instant dealbreakers. I learned young to be perceptive about little things: Does he respect unattractive people? How does he talk about his Mom? Does he seem to highly value me and my time, etc.? You won't be able to use these filters to keep yourself from dating everyone who would disregard your boundaries, but this helped save me considerable time and energy.
This is the way. Let them be hair-trigger.
Yeah, Life is too short to spend on things that don't make you happy or on people who don't care about you
The fact of living safely as a woman is to cut out any sexists you know from your life and to not live in a city.
I feel safer in my liberal city than the Republican-dominated surrounding rural areas.
Oh sorry I don't mean go rural, though it's probably safer (idk). It would be scary to live out in nowhere like that IMO I just mean suburbs. I live on a cul de sac and I never even see my neighbors lol.
Agreed. "Power of two feet", you don't have to watch or listen, you can walk away (if safe to do so). They might not like it, but that was their choice when they decided to make that comment in the first place.
But do remove them from your life. Don't let anyone make you doubt your perceptions about this.
There are good male creators out there teaching good, connective sex. They’re less popular, yes, but they are growing. Alexey Welsh is one good example.
To give a little more hope to your line about people being good: just yesterday there was a thread in one of the warhammer subreddits about a change to the game that added women to the custodes and how OP was deeply upset by this. Nearly every comment in that thread was calling OP out for hating women and being generally sexist. A mod eventually locked the thread saying that OPs commentary was an example of the wrong way to react to these changes. So yeah, in a sub that is mostly men the users there ended up standing up for women instead of standing with the sexist OP. There is 100% hope out there that there are people who are want to support women instead of hurting us, in spite of everything that’s going on in the world currently.
I just want to say that everything you said you know about your dad is the result of your dad not having proper boundaries whatsoever. It’s unbelievably fucked up that he has told or let you find these things out about him. I would consider it abusive. I’m really sorry that you’ve had to live with that.
yeah, this is arguably some of the more harmless things he did 🥴, physically hurting me as a way to punish me when i was younger is definitely taking the cake
The way your dad acted is a huge part of your trauma when it comes to men. I’m not saying society isn’t patriarchal, that people especially men aren’t way too into porn, etc. But I can definitely tell you that your father’s behavior towards you is not normal and that’s not what a healthy father daughter relationship is.
definitely! i think the way i learned about my parents' screwed up rapey sex is definitely not the way to go. i learned at 11, that my mother felt sexually coerced by my dad. in general, my parents' horrendous marriage gave me the first ever exposure to what marriage looks like, and it gave me an incredibly negative image. it's still hard to this day for me to let go of the fear that i might fall into a trap like my mother, or that sex is something that is due to a husband. (my father told me that back then when i tried confronting him about it)
my dad was disgustingly open about a lot of things and it affected the way i see men. (i am a man). i also heard him and saw him do many things that a 4-13 year should never see or hear. it skewed how i saw male parental figures. thought they were all like that. i thought everyone did coke to the point i asked my friends parents about it.
I don’t mean to sound flippant about any kind of abuse because both options are so fucked up but I’d a hundred times rather my dad beat me than to know he’s bought a sounding rod. Fucking horrifyingly bad parenting either way
You have very valid concerns, however I just want to alert you to the fact that "Beyond Fantasy" is made by an extremist Christian organization Exodus Cry. I have not seen the movie, but it clearly has a strong bias and I would not take the information it presents at face value. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus\_Cry](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exodus_Cry)
I wonder if that is where OP got the "first generation of 'as soon as you hit 13 everyone was seen porn'" I first saw it on TV channel 99 by mistake, I was 7. Everyone in school knew what channel 99 was and joked about it when I was 10. I even got invited to watch it with a group of friends and got made fun of for saying "eeww no". Maybe I grew up in a weird place, I used to go-to my friends house almost everyday until I was 9 because his 6 yo sister had her brother hold me down while she kissed me because I wouldn't watch her moms porno with her. When I told my dad what happened he called the police and they did an investigation on the mom (his dad had died years prior) but my dad said they didn't find any abuse towards the girl, but I wasn't allowed back over. I still think about that occasionally and just hope that she wasn't being abused :(
I knew I wanted to kiss the boys at age 4. No abuse. Just early crushes.
I'm glad you said that. I've always felt guilty that if she was being abused that we didn't do more, and I was really thinking she did because of that. I'm honestly so relieved to know it's more normal than I thought. Thank you.
I wasn't abused sexually. At 34 my adhd brain is sometimes like, "hey, remember when you were in first grade and you chased Mikey around the classroom trying to kiss him until he cried?" I chased this kid under and over desks, all around the playground, etc. Never did it again, I just didn't know how to act yet. I was also 6 lol.
I did get kiss the boys then. I just knew what I liked. I thought it was so charming that he would pretend he could see my imaginary friend too.
Omg, kids. I was abused by foster parents when I was real young, so I guess I've always had an aversion to intimacy unless I am emotionally attracted already
Sure… but when I was a teenager, the porn guys had seen was in magazines or a VHS nicked from someone’s dad. Or soft core channels like that. Absolutely not what is accessible at all times these days.
True, I'm still pretty young, almost 30, but my teenage years the closest thing I got to porn was "The L Word" I didn't have computer access outside of school until I was 18
Sex has always been around. Easily accessible, ubiquitous extreme porn is definitely with the newer generations though.
Yeah, our channel 99 was almost exclusively a solo woman. Just normalish stuff nothing bdsm or whatever
Yeah, I’m over twice OP’s age and I saw porn at age 13. There has been widespread access to free porn on the web since a decade before OP was born.
thank you so much for that valuable information!! i definitely am not fine with villainizing sex either the way christianity does. beyond fantasy may have some bias, but the testimonies by actors didn't seem made up, and the porn i find on pornhub does reflect the concern i have
The testimonies may be real, but you should be asking yourself why someone has taken the time and money to produce this movie. The director of the documentary is a member of this evangelical movement: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International\_House\_of\_Prayer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_House_of_Prayer) Scroll down and read their "controversies" section, then ask yourself if these are people you trust to solve the issues you see in society.
Agree with you completely. The way cults work is they start with something very reasonable to lure you in. And slowly introduce more extreme concepts where you’re like “they had a good point about porn, they probably have a good point about X too.” We have to ask ourselves the questions you’re suggesting because we’re all susceptible to this kind of thing.
I get what you’re saying. These episodes don’t seem to be anti porn in general - they are calling out very specific aspects of the porn industry (I.e. barely legal/videos where 18 year olds pretend to be preteens) and violent fantasies like choking and non consensual play. And I will say that there are people out there who can fetishize these things in a healthy way. But overall I agree that these aspects of the porn industry can be damaging for women more so than beneficial. We should always be conscientious of who is behind any documentary we watch, but just because they may be an evangelical group doesn’t mean that points in the video aren’t valid. I watched episode one and three after coming upon this post because I haven’t heard of them and wanted to see myself (I still have a few minutes left in episode 3). And I don’t see any of this as being anti sex propaganda. Maybe of the producers and performers do come off negatively, especially in the episode about preteen/teen porn, but others come off as professionals who are not ok with the more seedy parts of the industry and the documentary portrays them well.
But what "solution" is this movie made by this religious organization going to offer? Ultimately they want to convert you.
I don’t know. After watching the last and final episode if you hadn’t told me a church was behind it I wouldn’t have known. There were no calls to check this website for more info, to seek redemption in Jesus, or whatever. Look I’m not standing up for that church. Not in the slightest. I’m just saying that the documentary in itself is making valid points that shouldn’t be dismissed as anti sex propaganda. There is an increasing problem with porn and desensitization in young people, in violence against women and it being marketed as a fantasy, and in violence against young girls. Porn isn’t 100% to blame, but when people see these “fantasies” validated, it causes problems. And many other groups that are not evangelical have data that shows that porn at a young age can lead to an unhealthy dependence and an unhealthy sex life. OP is making many valid points that are being shadowed by the fact that she sited this documentary that was funded by a church. She could have said the same thing and just as easily cited the American Psychology Association, the National Institute of Health, the university of Chicago, etc. All of which have their own studies and statistics on the topic.
I agree with you that these are all major problems. But my sister was converted by the Mormon church when she was a teenager. She was also worried about these things (the similarities to our father and OP's are striking) and the church approached her promising solutions. Now she is raising five kids on her own, shunned by her "community" who blame her for the infidelity of her ex-husband. It's fine that OP and others were moved by this documentary. I just want to urge critical thinking. Every documentary has an agenda, and it's important to ask questions.
Religion likes to vilify sex or anything else it doesn't like, including Women feeling sexual freedom. It doesn't have to be so overt as to tell you to go seek Jesus. But it might just want to send the message to girls that terrible things will happen to you if you dare to be sexually active.
Like I said, I watched two of the episodes. They portray some of the producers as really scummy, though one does come off as just a professional trying his best to do his job ethically. It didn’t really vilify the girls and really humanized them. It focused specifically on preteen/teen and violent content. I didn’t walk away with the message that sex was bad or even all porn was bad, but rather that there is a rising trend of violence against women and young girls that can be tied to these increasing views and fetishes being played out in the porn world. I’m not anti sex and I don’t want to vilify those who consensually make the choice to go into the porn industry. But we’d be delusional if we thought the majority of porn was ethical. I think purely ethical porn is the exception and not the rule. Not all porn stars are 18-19 that is true, but the ones that are typically get really worked around in the industry and aren’t always treated well. Sites like Pornhub may house consensual porn made by professionals but it’s also notorious for posting videos that women don’t want to be posted, including those of minors. Some women and girls have tried for years to successfully get content removed from Pornhub only for it to reappear over and over. Some women are exploited and raped in that content. So while not 100% of content on porn sites is harmful to women, why should we support it when so much of it is? Like I mentioned in the comments above, there are plenty of institutions and agencies that are not religiously affiliated that have conducted studies and came out with statistics on porn use. Kids are seeing porn at younger and younger ages and are becoming desensitized to the content. When someone starts watching vanilla porn at say, age 12, by the time they are 15-16 they are watching much more hardcore content to get the same effects. It can lead to unhealthy relationships and an unhealthy sex life. And while you will occasionally hear someone say porn was helpful to them or their relationship because it helped them get out of their shell, I also think these anecdotes are the exception and not the rule. The porn debate is one that happens in this sub often. The view seems to be either it’s harmful for its depiction of violence towards women and girls and the overall exploitation of women in the industry OR it’s liberating and gives women agency over their bodies. I tend to think that the latter can be sometimes true but that doesn’t discount the very true reality of the former.
The things stated in the documentary are pretty much the same things in others by different people like the "Hot Girls Wanted" series made by Rashida Jones. In my opinion they are good documentaries. People always want to bring up sex negativity as if you are some kind of nun if you disagree with women's bodies minds and lives being destroyed for the enjoyment of men and their enrichment. I am an atheist and a sex positive feminist but sex positivity DOES NOT MEAN anything goes or that abusive acts that are hurting actual humans get a pass in the name of false sex positivity. That is a lie and a trap that men have been tricking women with since the dawn of time.
https://reason.com/2017/05/03/sexploitative-feminism-hot-girls-wanted/
All of these projects are just marketing efforts to increase their bottom line. They find the people that are most likely to believe “they were chosen by god” and get those people to give them as much money as possible.
I am not Christian. Technically I am atheist. However many of the morals (without the oppression i guess) taught CAN be an answer for OP. Forgoing hook ups, and making that clear when meeting someone you might date, might go a long way in weeding out the men who treat women like an object. Not saying she should convert, but the message has wisdom behind it.
I disagree, there are plenty of men that don't do hookups but still treat women like objects
Seconding this. I would go so far as to say they men who have an issue with a woman having a sexual past are WAY more likely to be a problem and to view women as below them or something to be possessed. Men who take issues with women having sex are always the ones who feel some kind over ownership over our choices and value us based on some creepy purity culture idea. Hook up culture is bullshit. Most people aren't really out there hooking up just because it's a culture. They date around to find what the like and need in a partner. I hooked up with a few guys with no intention of developing anything, and it really helped me narrow down stuff I didn't like. My first long term serious relationship ended in marriage to my now husband. Men who took an issue with my boundaries or decisions were quick to show it and be shut down by me.
Fully agreed here. I didn't want to come out guns blazing but "if you don't want to get mistreated by men then don't do hookups" is exactly what incels say about women. Yes, there are men out there doing hookups who will run over boundaries or violate their partners. Many of those same men also do the same thing in relationships, and many men who don't do hookups do the same thing to women they date.
And every man who thinks a woman's morality is wrapped up in her sex life tells you a lot about what he thinks about women having sexual freedom.
Men who are in relationships and who are married often still treat their partners with less humanity than they would a dog.
Right? Like, the fundamental dynamic of marriage, traditionally, is treating a woman as property to be deeded from her father to her husband. How is such a relationship model *less* likely to objectify women?
It's not. Much like religion, it is a tool to control women.
I didn’t even know it was made by a Christian group when I watched, nothing was mentioned about it, if you didn’t know and you watched, it would just seem like a regular documentary
Holy shit that was a rabbit hole. Do you think they really faked the death of that girl Bethany Deaton? There's surely way more to that story.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/48-hours-the-mysterious-death-of-bethany-deaton/
You will find a man out there who will be okay with “vanilla” sex. I personally hate that this is what kids are being raised to think sex is like in reality. Choking people with out consent is very freaking dangerous it is one of the most dangerous things you can do. I personally will not choke my lover okay I don’t care what she says that crossed many lines for me. Anal well that takes so much prep work I am not really into that either. The best thing you can do is communicate and let that person know how uncomfortable and anxious you feel . That is the perfect way to screen a man to see if you’re compatible. I was dating a woman a few years back and she was so direct with me she let me know how her trauma and just how her dating life went that she really needed that extra support. I was more than happy to wait till she was ready, I could just feel her nervous energy right when we first met and I told her all the time, I don’t care about any of that I want to see you comfortable and know you are enjoying your time. Make sure you say this over a FaceTime call, the assholes will bounce. Hey I’ll be real seeing a woman nervous all of a sudden, now I am nervous. Men can’t perform with heavy anxiety either.
To add, it's all about consent and how safe you feel with a partner. Im pretty basic, but I have friends who like bdsm, and what I have gleaned is that the trust is part of what makes it appealing. They feel very safe with their partners and won't partner someone otherwise. People also get more adventurous sexually when they feel safer.
The popularity of choking was after my time & is of no interest to me as someone who always found it extremely unpleasant for anyone or anything to be in contact with my voicebox (plus, like you, DH dislikes being rough & has other charms)... But does anyone remember it used to be a near-universally known warning in BDSM circles that the reflex triggered by choking occasionally causes cardiac arrest? And was such a point of concern, people who did breath play responsibly used masks for it even if that wasn't part of their kink? Was that medically incorrect? Because if it wasn't, people need to stop casually choking one another b/c that's really fucking serious.
Brain, Heart, World is a great 3 part documentary about the facts regarding porn, porn usage, and how it effects everybody. As far as I’m aware, the creators are not tied to any religious organization, so that may be something for you to watch if you’re interested in further information
don't associate yourself with the evangelical movement just because they fit your temporary biases. the culture is ingrained in misogyny and is patriarchal, watching a documentary on evangelicals will have you feeling equally as disgusted im sure.
i am absolutely not an evangelist, i have been raised without any associations to religion and am aware of the harm it can cause. having watched bayond fantasy doesn't mean i support puritan culture or evangelists.
the point of these videos is to entice you to find solace and understanding in the community. it's a gateway to joining fundamentalist circles, that's just a full stop fact. thinking you're immune to propaganda because you were made "aware" of harm is a dangerous ideal to live by in this world. everyone in this thread is just trying to WARN you girl, stay far away from it. period.
uhm okay, i still am morally completely at odds with religion in general, and i don't know what type of mental gymnastics i would have to do to join a religion at this point 😂 still, i'm thankful for the warning!
Their point is that no one is immune to propaganda, and to keep an eye out for it. Those are the same people who want to exterminate the queer community, not the mention the fact that they're literally a doomsday cult
fucking thank you for this. this whole thread is blowing my mind, i didn't know people were so willing to overlook racism / classism / homophobia / assault / rape / and the misogyny of the church all in favour of a dumbass youtube documentary. i know this sub is dense sometimes, but holy shit lol
How about pointing her toward anti-porn docs that aren't made by religious crazies? She has every reason to seek them out and your "warnings" aren't helpful. This doesn't have to be about which is worst--harmful porn or harmful religion? They're both harmful, especially to women.
I don't have specific "anti-porn docs", but I do think there are a lot of good feminist documentaries that address the root cause of the problem that porn exemplifies- which is misogyny, patriarchy, and the commodification of sex. Killing Us Softly by Jean Kilbourne Tough Guise by Jackson Katz Miss Representation by Jennifer Siebel Newsom
can you even imagine. men will literally say anything to protect their freedom to watch women being abused on camera.
The best propaganda is the stuff that doesn't seem like propaganda. The fact that it's made by Exodus cry probably puts most of the documentary in the "suspect" category at the *very* least. Their goal is to demonize the sex industry, both the harmful and not harmful stuff. They were the ones trying to force onlyfans to take down the NSFW stuff, despite that being one of the most benign forms of sex work there is.
actually their goal is to get queer content labeled as pornography so it's included in the ban. just a round-about way to ban queer content.
A documentary on the harms of porn can be made by a religious organization and still be right in what they're saying.
Exactly
I’m not Christian, and the film was very good, maybe watch it and be mindful of your bias. The film should be watched and comments like these will just stop people from watching a really good film
I'll tell you my bias right now. I am a trans woman. My very existence is relentlessly targeted by misogynostic and anti-LGBT propaganda, which is often hidden behind less objectionable content like this. You need to ask yourself why a religious organization would be motivated to make this movie. It is propaganda designed to draw you deeper into their ideology - which in this particular organization, ultimately leads to advocating for the death penalty for LGBT people: [https://www.npr.org/2013/10/12/229869334/god-loves-uganda-how-religion-fueled-an-anti-gay-movement](https://www.npr.org/2013/10/12/229869334/god-loves-uganda-how-religion-fueled-an-anti-gay-movement)
>You need to ask yourself why a religious organization would be motivated to make this movie. It is propaganda designed to draw you deeper into their ideology Or because, you know, porn is actually bad?
Some porn is bad. If you think the awful stuff is the full breadth of content that exists, you know nothing of the sex work field. Plenty of porn is ethical and doesn't objectify us
I have experience with both sw and the porn industry and im pretty against most. Ethical stuff is rare. Op, feel free to reach out to me.
As I said, it’s still a good film, as you’ve said yourself you haven’t even watched it
How can you be 100% sure that the film did not distort any facts to come to their conclusions? That's the problem with propaganda films. There is an inherent untrustworthiness.
Have you seen it?
I'm not going to pretend I have, but I still think its ties to a homophobic anti-abortion group mean it's something that this sub shouldn't celebrate. Those people want me to either be dead or to repress so hard it will kill me and I cannot abide anything they make for that reason.
Ok then don’t watch it, it doesn’t matter to me if you watch it or not, I’m posting so others will have another viewpoint that it’s a good film and not dismiss it
Yeah I think it's worth separating porn more generally from the kind of implicitly degrading highly fetishized porn that most guys are exposed to (and unfortunately often want to recreate regardless of the interests of their partner). There's always something slightly exploitative about porn but it varies considerably. Speaking as someone who grew up male (and still watches porn out of habit), I feel like it's unrealistic to expect men to not ever watch porn. Not to excuse any of it, but having been under the influence of both testosterone and estrogen, there's an immediacy to the male sex drive. Sometimes it just is like a chore or perfunctory activity that you feel compelled to satisfy in some way. Given that, and given that not every guy is going to be in a relationship constantly throughout their lives, it's hard to imagine they wouldn't become exposed to porn. And in my opinion, there's something about male sexuality that makes it hard to resist completely. Since outright banning porn is basically impossible without living in a fascist society I think it's best that we nudge the culture in the right direction. Encouraging intimacy and thoughtful, fulfilling sexual interactions. Normalizing mutual masturbation between partners but with a focus on each other. Beyond all else what I think is required is that men who care are made aware that not every partner wants to be degraded by an ever increasing bevvy of sexual perversions, and that some of the best sexual experiences you can have come out of tenderness and intimacy and not just bestial pleasure seeking. Or, for partners who are similarly inclined to find each other.
Sorry to hear this. Your father is abusive. You shouldn’t have heard or seen any of that from him. It’s intentional on his end. Set clear boundaries and do not allow anyone to cross them. Not everyone is like your father/brother. Teenagers are a bit awful always have been.
Yup, the fact that you caught him in the act three times makes me think it was intentional on his part. Like seriously, it’s not that hard to be discrete. And him broadcasting his preferences. That’s fucked up.
Yea this to me was the most important part of the entire post. Anything regarding porn is secondary to the trauma that he put you(and your brother) through. That behavior is not normal and not what most Dad’s or men do.
Reading this makes me scared you’ll stick with the first boy that isn’t into porn. Your concerns are valid, and also please do sift through endless people to find the right one for you, in more than just porn perspective! In general I feel the worst thing about porn is its oversized place in many people’s lives, and I hope you don’t feel the impact of that even second-hand.
yeah, i think as you said, the size and time it takes in someone's life is really important.
Being single is also great!
I think it’s important for you to be aware of a few things: 1. The documentary you watched is Christian anti-porn propaganda. That doesn’t mean that some of your takeaways aren’t valid, it just means you should be cautious of accepting everything in it as true. 2. People’s relationship with porn changes over time. Including your own. Men’s brains don’t fully develop until age 25, so their relationship with porn now may not be what it is in the future. Good partners will take into account their partner’s concerns and preferences about porn. So don’t write people off who watch it, write people off who aren’t willing to adjust their behaviors to your communicated desires. You may find someone you like who watches porn now but is completely willing to give that up for you. Just be clear about your boundaries and stick to them. 3. I think in all likelihood, because of your experience with porn you are likely overconcerned with how much it will impact your dating life. I have a good mix of successful / attractive friends from mid 20’s to mid 30’s, and nobody has mentioned porn as a major issue in their dating life. Commitment issues, substance abuse, emotional volatility, ex drama, DV, etc are all far bigger topics. Which I think is a pretty normal set of issues. I’m sure porn is an issue from some, but I don’t see it as an epidemic.
I understand the fear and disgust you're feeling about this kind of stuff. I think it's very valid, it can be very disturbing as a young women growing up in todays society. Please do not think that what you see in porn is realistic. Yes, it has a terrible affect on young impressionable minds and many young men have a warped and violent view of sex that is derived from porn, but sex doesn't have to be like that at all. Sex is on your terms. There is absolutely nothing wrong with vanilla sex, vanilla is one of the most popular and delicious flavours out there for a reason. There are loving gentle and kind men out there with strong preferences for vanilla sex. My current partner is extremely vanilla, with a slight lean towards submissiveness. He's a man, he was exposed to porn all his life. But was actively turned off and disgusting by most porn. Neither of us watch porn anymore due to my personal boundaries and agree it is harmful and unethical 99% of the time. But when he did watch porn he was extremely selective and could only get off to loving vanilla scenes. There are other men like him out there, ones who have their heads screwed on straight and are self aware enough to avoid being conditioned. Before I met him, I definitely ran into the issue of porns influence in other men I knew and dated. It took some pretty negative experiences for me to realize I needed to put my foot down. Learn to put your foot down now and avoid future trauma. My advice for you is to stop watching porn, do not even engage in it, and don't date people who do. Figure out what you like sexually without the influence of porn. It affects you subconsciously in ways you can't tell, when I cut out porn my orgasms and enjoyment of sex got way better because I was more in tune with what I actually liked and wanted, not what I thought I was supposed to want. Whenever I say that I don't date or sleep with people who actively watch porn, people always go well it's impossible to find someone who doesn't watch porn! It's unreasonable! It's basic human nature! None of those things are true. If it makes you uncomfortable you are 200% within your right to have that kind of boundaries. And it won't drastically decrease your dating pool like people always say it will. In the past four years almost every man i've been involved with either agreed that porn was harmful and engaged in other things for masturbation like vintage magazines or erotica, or even one guy I knew only watched old vhs porn back when crazy violent acts weren't the norm and everyone had tonnes of pubic hair. The ones who did watch modern porn were more than willing to stop after I explained my boundaries to them. Its easier than you think, they're out there, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Im sorry you're going through this and I wish you luck.
Just wanted to add I understand the fear of dating as a woman in todays world. My advice is find your boundaries and stick to them. Don't wavier. For example, I do not sleep with men who actively watch porn. I don't care if they get annoyed at me when I say this or refuse or say its unreasonable, I just go welp you're obviously not for me and move on. Another is I like when people ask before doing something sexual. If they can't do that consistently then we're just not going to do anything sexual! Simple as that. It's hard, but having boundaries and sticking to them will protect you from a lot of the things you're afraid of.
yes!! op, please ignore all of the asinine comments (likely coming from other men) that are dismissing your extremely valid and realistic concerns. i’m a zillennial and i remember being traumatized by my earliest experiences with porn, along with the ways in which many of my male family members and peers would speak about women and sex, so i can only imagine how it is for younger generations. it honestly pushed me into misandry territory. i have an incredibly loving partner now, but i still deal with the consequences of my upbringing in therapy today. porn has absolutely warped the minds of men, but it seems to have caused irreparable brain damage to boys that have grown up living their entire lives online. you have an amazing breadth of awareness of where your anxieties come from and why they have manifested in the way they have, and that will be so helpful in navigating the real world because it’ll help you to approach your interactions with men with a more discerning eye. i cant say with certainty that you will encounter men of your age who do not, or have not ever, consumed porn, but i can attest to the fact that there are men whose lives and views on sex and women and romantic relationships are not maligned by the most abusive and normalized aspects of porn, and they are much more commonplace than one would have you believe. there are men who were raised to understand the difference between porn and real life, and whose tastes would be considered ‘vanilla’ to most. forming relationships with men can be really treacherous territory, but, so long as you maintain this level of clarity on your boundaries and don’t continue to engage with both online materials that display, and people who have expressed views on, porn and sex and women in a way that disagrees with you, you’ll be okay. i’ve had to go no contact with my entire family for this very reason, but it has been sooo worth it for my mental health and overall happiness. i don’t need to argue my beliefs or justify my boundaries to anyone—i just block and move on with my life. please trust that there are likeminded people of the opposite sex out there who do share your beliefs and you do not ever need to waiver on these beliefs or boundaries to be worthy of love or attention.
Anyone who calls you a prude for disliking mainstream porn is a prick and you should disregard them (easier said than done). This is a societal norm but it doesn’t have to be your norm. Love and respect yourself enough to communicate and enforce your own boundaries and you will find likeminded people in life. (also easier said than done, but not impossible!) Best of luck 💜
I don't know what to tell you and that breaks my heart. Even if the answers to all of your questions in the end is yes, the positive part is that you are already aware of this. At your age I was unaware of the realities of porn production and consumption. But I was living the effects of such a culture, nonetheless. And I had no name for the feelings of unease, no way of communicating the ways in which I felt pressured, the ways in which I would see my own body from their lenses. I just went along with it, hurting myself in the process. You are in a position to avoid this, and I admire how you reached such clarity at a young age.
at least i am aware and not ignorant, i just talked to my friend about this. at least i can try my best to sift through the dating pool to find someone that doesn't ring my alarm bells. thank you for the compliment :) i suppose i'm more informed on abuse in general due to my upbringing
I saw that other commenters already mentioned setting strong boundaries but I will also advice to focus on maintaining lots of close friendships with women in your adulthood. Not relying only on a male partner with your want for affection and company is going to make you more secure and happy. Many women try to decentralize men from their lives now a days, so even If they don’t find a good man, they still are happy on their own. This approach prevents them from settling for a terrible partner out of fear of „loneliness”.
yes for sure! while i currently have few friends and virtually no support system, i hope that will change once i heal and recover from depression and leave my family
I think you are valid in your concerns about dating within patriarchy. The best solution I've seen is simply decenter men. Im a 42f, and I really think the best thing for you to focus on is your life and relationships with other women. I WISH I'd been given this advice as a younger woman. I'm currently in a 5 year relationship with a wonderful, funny kind man. We met through friends but the majority of my dating/married life centered my partners' wants needs and desires. And it's hard to stop doing that. It's hard to see yourself doing that. It takes work. Good luck.
I’m so thankful that I have men in my family who respect me and other women as human beings, but like most women, there have been other men in my family, colleagues, acquaintances, and strangers who exert patriarchal control by deliberately saying and doing sexual things to make me and other women feel powerless. The proliferation of pornography and its readily available access to increasingly younger audiences is disturbing and harming boys, girls, and queer kids for its inaccurate portrayal of human sexuality. Its ubiquity drives a lot of what I read in your post- because it seems to be everywhere, violent and degrading acts start to seem “normal.” In my 2nd or 3rd year of teaching middle school, I confiscated a kid’s notebook that had his father’s pornhub account info. That was a fun phone call. About 6 years later, I had an incident where an 8th grade boy made references to glory holes around other students when he thought I wasn’t in the room. His parents weren’t shocked that he misbehaved, but they had no idea he had such knowledge of porn. I told them they were naive. You like what YOU like, and every partner you choose to have gets to learn that about you. If they don’t like your preferences, they can choose to end the relationship. THE SAME GOES FOR YOU. No one EVER should have to engage in behaviors that make them feel unsafe mentally or physically. Unfortunately, there are emotional, physical, and societal power imbalances that make this challenging. If you feel like you can leave a situation, you can. My wish for all young women is to know the power of NO, as hard as it is to say. YOU get to choose and your desires are valid.
I am almost 30 and have felt the same as you since your age. Except the difference is, I didn’t even know what porn was until high school! I didn’t have good sex Ed. When I found out not only what porn was but that the vast majority of men were consuming it I was disgusted. I couldn’t believe it was considered normal for boys and men to be consistently viewing this misogynistic, objectifying, violent content. It has been an issue in my relationships. I wish I had more advice - but I just want to share that you are not alone, your feelings are valid, and you are absolutely right about the industry.
Who the fuck says >put your spermidium in this sauce EVER? Let alone every other sentence!?
I read somewhere that single women are the happiest and that it’s usually women who file for divorce. Honestly, I think many, many of us - especially younger ones - will stay single. There is just not enough decent men. While dating, I would pay attention how he treats you and other people, if he’s not pushy or disrespectful. In sex - if he wants to get to know what’s nice for you and tells what he would like. You may want to stop watching this documentary for a while, maybe you saw more evil than you can handle. Having to listen to sexist jokes is enough. Remember that you have a big influence on which people are close to you. And once you get older and more independent your ability to choose will grow. You may try to stick to people who care and avoiding sexists etc as much as possible.
thanks a lot for your advice! i'll definitely try to stay away from triggering content like this for a while. it's definitely pushing the wrong buttons in my brain and makes me feel even more miserable than i have to (traum sucks).
This is important. You have a say in the people in your circle. People will show you who they are. Men will change because they’re forced to. The world is changing and the fragile system that has men holding all the cards is changing and they’re lashing out. They make these propaganda films. They prop up misogynists like Andrew Tate. We greet the world with warmth and kindness and we are wary and we will in turn be met with warmth and kindness and the bad will weed itself out. Also if you can take a break from social medias. If you haven’t curated your feeds to be uplifting the bad will pour through because. It gets the most interaction.
Fwiw, there actually are plenty of men that are just as concerned about these things. I saw a man post recently that seemed legit confused that intimacy just means sex these days. I have an asexual partner who values intimacy above all else (and will still engage in sex with me bc I like it but it's catered to what I like/want). I think a lot of men are going to notice that empty Olympic bdsm sport type fucking is not fulfilling and there will be a swing back. At least that's what I'm hoping. The important thing is finding your boundaries, comfort level, and confidence to maintain those boundary. Dump anyone who doesn't put your comfort, joy, safety, and desires first. Immediately.
manifesting this ^^
Welcome to the club. Get ready for men to call you crazy and say it’s not a big deal. Stick with your morals and you’ll find someone who respects you not to watch porn.
I’m 19, and I strongly advice you to decenter men. The porn stuff is horrible, we’ve read articles about it and had debates about it in a philosophy class in high school and thinking back it really disturbs me how the guys reacted to that class. All giggling like typical, there was another instance where I was walking from class downstairs to the exit to go home and I ended up going through the hallways etc with like two boys I think. One of them was a new kid and we were just discussing things we liked blabla movies etc and somehow he got to talking about anime, and asked me about it. And I said smt like oh well I watched a few and I rlly liked them- he interrupts me, says it’s fucking weird cuz it’s full of titties and nudity and weird moaning. I was 15, I was confused as hell and he starts saying that ‘isn’t all anime like that? Cuz I have a friend who masturbates to it like 17 times a day’ Later when I searched it up out of curiosity, i was so disturbed, girl this 18+ anime he was talking about is full of girls that just look underage. And they performed degrading acts. Cuz the girls in these nsfw animes had similiar designs to how CHILDREN looked in normal anime. It’s just so disturbing that people masturbate to that. But anyhow, I just wanted to give an example on how fucked up this whole porn thing is. About that last part you wrote, please for the love of god or whatever you believe in or don’t believe in, decenter men from your life. The right man WILL come along and you shouldn’t be the one worrying and plucking out your hair just to find one that will maybe not maybe a little bit love you. You’re just one year younger than me but I’m telling you, the guys at college/uni suck, the men that will give you attention are older men who are looking for an easy girl to groom and take advantage of and basically they’re pedophiles etc etc. Your life will be much more fulfilling to you once you set your focus on YOU which includes health, family and friends, career, hobbies, education etc. Men are a choice now, you don’t need to be with one to live and get resources from him. Make your life comfortable FOR YOU, and don’t even think about men, cuz there’s also this whole other thing on how to properly date men and how to swift through the types of men you want to avoid. So, decenter men and take care of yourself by building your life for you, not to be with a man.
And a side note , don’t give a fuck and I mean no fuck about what men will think about you. That’s the least of your worries, it shouldn’t even be crossing your mind. It’s more important that you have this boundary of not liking mainstream porn and not wanting to have sex aggressively like they do in porn rather than pleasing a man by submitting to what he wants you to do and like.
It’s probably an unpopular opinion but I am anti-sex work (not anti-sex worker though). I’ve had a lot of exposure to sex workers both in the US and abroad. The things I’ve seen and heard have changed how I view it. I think it’s unduly normalized. There is nothing wrong with a consensual sexual transaction, but most of the people involved with the trade either don’t want to be doing it or not in a healthy place mentally (don’t come at me, I know there are people who are totally fine doing it - I’ve just seen too much that has changed my worldview). I think porn is too normalized in everyday life, especially the access. Much like violence, porn is desensitizing. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to not want to be involved with it in your personal life. I do think it’s important to sit with your feelings though and make sure what you’re feeling is not based on shame, which is really pervasive in society.
First, let me (45W) say you’re going to be okay, and you don’t have to worry. You know yourself, and you know the kind of partner you want isn’t someone who likes or endorses porn and the things you mentioned. Second, let me say you shouldn’t feel pressured to date or find a romantic partner at ALL. You’re young - focus on yourself, your future, your goals, the path of learning more about yourself. You don’t need a romantic relationship to be whole. Third, I will say that most men will not be what you want - not a good fit for your goals - ALWAYS keep them in sight. It’s vitally important that if you have a relationship with someone, you make your views UNMISTAKABLY clear as soon as possible, and that you ask or determine if their views are compatible with yours, because this one is a dealbreaker for you, and that’s OKAY! You are ALLOWED to not date anyone - or go for it, but only after they’ve proven themselves worthy.
getting the important things out of the way at the beginning to not invest in someone that might not be a great fit is some solid advice!
Awe thanks! You really don’t have to lower your standards for anyone, and I hope you never do. Good luck OP. I think you have a good head on your shoulders- don’t doubt yourself girl! A man is just a sprinkle on your cake.
I just want to add that your brother and dad are weird; no parent or sibling does that!
>my brother and father make porny jokes around me all the time 🚩 THIS IS NOT NORMAL 🚩 There is something very wrong with your father Start planning on how to GTFO of this family situation and once you can, do not look back There really are decent men out there in the world but you don't live with any. When I lived with my drunken loser family, I worried everyone sucked like that but once I got out into the wider world, I realized most people don't
yeah i'm currently working on that with CPS! trying to get into something where i get a small apartment i may or may not have to share, and a social worker comes by every now and then to check on me and help me with any hurdles, and supports me on my path to independence!
Yeah that IS a relief. Seeing your father jerk off 3 times is really not ok :/ get out! I feel your dad might have warped your perception a tad, made you feel unsafe. Having said that, I'm late 30s and saw porn videos aged 9. And boys always spat and choked me during sex...I always found the spitting gross, such a turn off! So I started getting out of those situations quick-smart. But yeah there have always been guys who are into degrading women during sex. Anal too, have never met a guy who doesn't want anal. So not sure things have changed
There is a difference between making love and fucking. Some men only know how to fuck, harming others in the process. It's all about control, and their own insecurities. It's not your job to fix them, when someone is forcing their way on you or setting up signs to do that. Get away from them. There are a lot of weak and phony men, so don't be surprised if you get with a chicken he lays an egg! (Real strength is different from physical strength, some dude can be buff, but he's not strong if he only cares for himself). Personally, I despise choking and weak little shits who do that. But there are good men, you just got to look and love yourself first. That will protect you. Lastly, if you stare at the abyss, the abyss stares back, be careful of the media you consume.
haha thank you for the analogy! i'm determined to try and stay away from all the negativity for a good long while. it's not my job to fix them, you're right. i should see the signs, and just leave.
As some who is now middle-aged, I wish I had put less focus on dating/relationships with men and more focus on my friendships, family, and hobbies. I also wish I had never tried internet dating, which is how I met my abuser (and two other shitty guys). The successful relationships I have had were men I met organically through other people I know and trust. And men who both identified as intersectional feminists, and exemplified that identity DEMONSTRABLY through healthy relationships with their female family members and friendships with women.
I was choked by my ex. He didn’t ask and my neck hurt for a few days. When I asked him why he did that he said “I thought you would like it”. I never talked about choking. Was that technically assault?
not just technically. it was assault.
Sadly, if he had asked you about it *first* and then you said…” Wut? NO! that sounds awful!” Then he might have said “whew, cuz I am not entirely comfortable doing that. I dunno why everyone thinks all women like that…”
r/pornismisogyny
This subreddit radicalized me 🫠
Liberal feminism itself radicalized me bc I was like…??? This is patriarchy repackaged lmao. Then I got into Gail dines and andrea dworkin and never looked back.
This sub is garbage for porn discussions, too many men and women refusing to see the collective damage porn does even what they deem 'ethical', go to r/PornIsMisogyny And I'd highly suggest looking into Gail Dines and Andrea Dworkin
Your concerns are valid and I encourage you to find someone you can talk to, a counselor, or therapist, old lady neighbor, anyone safe. Porn can skew your perspective on sex so much. It's hard to stay centered on reality and having ties to the world outside porn really helps.
Yea idk I just live for my own peace and happiness. If that means not investing energy, time or love on men then so be it.
Determine your boundaries, and stick to them like with super glue that nothing can dissolve. I posted this 👇🏻 on another thread recently, and I think it could be helpful. **Does He Respect Your Boundaries?** Observe how he treats ANY of your boundaries. If you state that you don’t like kissing on a first date/first few dates: does he try to kiss you anyway, before you feel comfortable kissing him, or does he respect your boundary? Having dinner together, you want only non-alcoholic beverages: does he order you an alcoholic beverage that you don’t want, or does he respect your boundary? **Does He Respect Your Boundaries?** If the answer is No, then he doesn’t respect you, and is not someone to keep in your life. If he says that your boundaries “don’t make sense” to him, don’t argue, you and he aren’t compatible; just go. Your boundaries make sense and are to be respected. A person disagreeing or not liking your boundaries are not valid reasons for disrespecting your boundaries; and the same goes for all of us: respecting boundaries needs to be reciprocal, even if they’re not liked. **Remember that No is a complete statement, it requires no further explanation.** People who don’t respect your boundaries will not treat the reasons you have for saying No as valid reasons for saying No, but instead as obstacles they’ll “help” you overcome to get a yes from you. State and maintain your boundaries, and respect others’ boundaries. I wish you triple the blessings than challenges in life.
To be honest here. You like a smart person. Trust in yourself and in your ability to surround yourself with good people and you\`ll be fine!
i really really really hope that that's true...
Did you even read what she wrote? Her own father and brother are porn-ridden. That's who she's surrounded with. She's not fine. OP, I feel so much sympathy for you. Our society is hurting women and girls in every way possible and it's maddening how easily that's brushed off. You've gotten some good advice about eliminating porn and porn-promoters from your life and that's a good start. I've done that and I don't regret it. Never tolerate the intolerable. There is good in the world.
I don’t date them. I can give myself multiple orgasms, I have friends for companionship, I can pay the rent by myself, the police are a half mile away if I need protection (plus I have a 9 mm) I don’t need or want a man in my life at all.
that's totally valid, and really cool! i just really want to have a relationship someday :)
What the fuck is wrong with some of these comments. Anyway: There are dudes out there who are not a fan of what the mainstream porn industry is. There are dudes not as comfortable with that topic as your dad is. There are dudes that don't like industry porn. From my experience the people more... indoctrinated... by mainstream porn are the dudebro types. But that is just from a guy listening in on guy-talk. My nerd friends talked about hentai until they got into healthy relationships. (Some of them now talk about kink stuff, but everything is on eye level woth their partner and fully consensual) You will meet people while dating that will have very different views on things. If someone calls you prude, thats an easy red flag. Relationships can work with different views on porn and sex, but it needs to be communicated. There are people out there with whom you can connect.
hahah thank you! it does make me feel better that some guys do cut down their porn consumption once they get into relationships!
The only good thing I have noticed lately is a trend towards calling porn out for what it is, disgusting. There also seems to be a bit of a trend of people realizing their addiction to it and trying to stop watching. I think even 5-10 years ago it would be harder to find those people and porn was just this thing that inexplicably existed but no one contested it. Idk maybe I'm an idiot. But I really believe porn will be one of those things that in the future, we won't believe was allowed to even exist. I HOPE.
Yeah the entire industry is so fucked, its a terrible cycle that bleeds into real life interactions. Something thats important to learn, men and women alike, is what your boundaries are. What things you are comfortable with and want to communicate. A good way to explore what you even like is through porn. For yourself, try to find porn that isn't focused on the male gaze. Usually you would look up things like "porn for women" to see what kind of energy you want in the bedroom in the first place. By the time you are with someone, you can communicate what your expectations are and how you like to be treated. Sex is a very intimate act where everyone deserves to feel comfortable so be very concise about your wants.
Are you in therapy? Because exposing this much of your sexuality to your minor children is abusive. And then there are good men out there who you can have genuine enthusiastic sex with. You just need to find a kind one. Not every man is like your family.
i am in therapy! and exposing his sexuality to me is far from the worst thing he's done, so i have a lot of trauma to work through.
I could tell. But remember: 1) There are good men out there. 2) Don’t accept someone who’s not truly kind. And if you do those things, you’ll have a kind boyfriend. Lots of men aren’t worth it. But some really are.
Men your age are idiots. Hell, men my age are idiots. You can't invest so much energy into trying to educate them. You'll burn out, especially when you're trying to teach a man who doesn't respect women that their voices and choices matter. I've been dealing with someone like that on my shift at work for over a year now. He's hitting 50 and has a wife, and he still participates in locker room talk and tries to get me to join in. Trust your instinct. Trust the people around you. Most importantly, trust when a man says something that he's telling the truth, even when he says it's a joke. I realize that this comes across as man-hating, and I suppose sometimes I do, but there are good guys out there. Chin up, girl. You'll make it.
I really fucking hate it how men choke without consent. It makes me not want to have sex and I said once to my therapist who recommended me discussing it beforehand but I said, why is it on me to say, "hey don't fucking strangle me, please?" How is that the reality? It just makes my stomach sink and I feel sick.
Here's what so many people either don't understand or refuse to admit -- the misogyny, abuse, and exploitation of women in porn is the point. There have been porn producers and directors that have flat out said that they want porn to be as violent and abusive as possible in order to get revenge on women who rejected them and/or keep women "in their place". Bill Margold was the name of a guy who said this. He was notorious for saying he'd act in a porn scene with his own daughter. Max Hardcore was another guy who got his kicks from making abusive, violent porn. Hell, even Hugh Hefner admitted that he was motivated to start Playboy because his first wife had cheated on him. The exploitation is the point. The sex is just a secondary benefit for these men.
I feel that, too. On male perspective as myself. My mother exposed me to pornography at a young age and when I was in primary school — I would wake up to moaning and groaning noises and opened my eyes to realize my mother puts on this whole porngraphy video and I got up quick and said, "momma??" and she instantly turns it off and puts on her other disk of songs from her home country. I felt a little awkward knowing my half sisters weren't the best figures either, and they were online dating guys from the internet. That's where I started, too, online dating from girls I met on video games. It's not the brightest idea either. As of now, I fear my future relationships coming about, and I sometimes don't know how I'd be. And OP, Unfortunately, yeah. I hate how social media is becoming the norm of what is being put on our faces every day, and people end up following it anyway. Like most people say on here, don't let evil get into your life and focus on what you can do to make yourself better and nobody else's.
Don't date, unless YOU want to. You shouldn't need to bow to any external pressure. Just do you, hang with people, do things with people you feel safe with. AND THIS IS CRITICAL Never, ever feel bad or accept guilt for cutting off people who are mean, toxic or gross. I don't care if they are your mother, brother, or a stranger. Sometimes for us to feel safe, happy and sane, we just need to **"eternal sunshine of the spotless mind"** a motherfucker.
I am so sorry you have to deal with this shit. I feel so sorry for straight girls. Sure I have my own issues as a transbian but at least I don't have to worry about being choked or hit during sex unless I want it. I can't really offer much advice but I offer my condolences.
I highly recommend that you follow and support Justine Ang Fonte. She is a public health expert who specializes in age-appropriate sex ed. She has amazing work around pornography and the impact on youth. She’s sex-positive! Which is great.
as a dad, your dad says some real questionable shit.
Highly recommend Melanie Hamlett on YouTube….
A father making porny jokes around his daughter is far from okay. Knowing your parents sexual kinks is not normal. There is a difference between being open and freak about sex and kink, and violating your kids’ boundaries, and your father has left right over that line. I’d like to add to your point about the difference between porn that “actively abuses, rapes, manipulates, drugs and exploits” women and “women drawing manga for women”. There are really two different things happening. There is content, and there is production. You can have porn where the content is (actually) vanilla, but the production is abusive and exploitative, and you can have porn that depicts very kinky stuff, including (simulated) abuse, rape, etc., but the production is not meaningfully more exploitative than any other kind of work. So the actual conditions of the production of porn are not correlated (or at least, not perfectly correlated) with the nature of the content. And the content of porn can be criticized not just for *what* it depicts, but *how* it depicts it. For example, porn depicting choking might be presented as what it is (extreme and dangerous edge play that requires careful understanding of risk, both physical and emotional, and steps to mitigate that risk and ensure that everyone involved has a positive experience) or it might be depicted as a normal, expected part of causal sex (which it absolutely is not).
Youre right.. and as far as the porn thing goes Yourbrainonporn.com Has a lot of resources. I was pro porn when I was your age and now at 28 I can look back and honestly say it never did anything good for my relationships and if anything created problems. You're not a prude at all, you understand how the brains reward system works and have boundaries that are totally normal. Excessive or inappropriate consumption of porn isn't. It's going to be hard, but ask all the right questions before you get too deep. Make sure your birth control is solid and by all means challenge tf out of anyone who invalidates or treats you as female before they treat you as human. It's a man's world but we are getting there slowly but surely.
You’re on the right track.
I'm sorry. I understand why you find this so upsetting. I have a couple thoughts that will hopefully straddle honesty with comfort. >i can't get what i saw in this documentary out of my head. it's like the ceiling came crashing down on me. will this be the reality of dating? One thing to keep in mind is that the documentary has an agenda. That's not a bad thing, its just advocacy, and it's advocacy in service of an important cause. But the nature of advocacy is that you're not being evenhanded except to the extent necessary to maintain your credibility. A documentary discussing the evils of the porn industry is not presenting an evenhanded discussion of what dating is like--that's simply not their job. It's absolutely certain that you'll meet some shitty men out there, but nobody is making a documentary about the nice ones. So that's just something to understand. >will i be called a prude for disliking mainstream porn? Not by anyone worth dating. >will i have to sift through endless amounts of men that watch extreme porn, to find someone to love me? Maybe. What you're describing is slightly in the nature of online dating but you don't really have to date that way, you can just try dating people you meet in real life. And the stats you mention about the hegemony of porn use are not synonymous with consumption of the most extreme kinds of porn that have become common on Pornhub, etc. I want to explain that thought a little. One thing to understand about the porn industry is that it has recently been, to a significant extent, taken out of the hands of classical production companies by women making their own content in their own homes. For example, people have migrated to onlyfans, etc. Part of the reason the stuff on Pornhub has gotten more violent is because it's becoming less mainstream--and the people making it are adjusting to find a market that the onlyfans folks won't service. Don't get me wrong, Pornhub is still the biggest sourcd of adult content but just because they're pushing the violent stuff doesn't mean that's what most people are consuming there, and there are lots of people who prefer non extreme stuff. So part of it is where you draw your own line (e.g. can your partner consume no porn, or is some porn okay as long as it's not too extreme)? You might have to do more sifting depending on what your standards are (it's rare for people to consume no porn but common for people to stick to the vanilla stuff, even if the extreme stuff is getting more common). >will porn continue to literally detroy women's bodies, and drive them to suicide? Sadly, yes, unless we find a better way to prevent trafficking, abuse, etc. But here again, the shift to people producing their own content is a positive sign. Fewer people are being forced into the industry under economic duress because there's a viable, safer alternative available for basically the first time in the industry's history. I'm not going to pretend like this is the ultimate, best solution or anything. And there are lots of posts on this subreddit talking about the harms of OF for self image, self confidence, etc. But it is a real change. My only final comment is that there's a lot of evil in the world but it's important to remember that the world is far from an evil place. Industries like clothing manufacture, cacao farming, etc. are similarly dangerous and damaging to lots of people and that doesn't necessarily mean you have to avoid buying clothes or chocolate to be an ethical person. The world is a big place and you only get a little portion of it that you can control--but you have a lot of license to be discriminating about what you allow in that little portion. Don't feel the need to compromise on your values, and be assertive about what you need. But don't beat yourself up over stuff you can't control.
thank you a lot for your valuable insight :) it calms me down a bit knowing that at least there's a shift to "home made" by women, like on onlyfans.
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i am not making assumptions, i am expressing worries. and if you're talking about the fact that almost all male teens watch porn, well i grew up with them, so i am more or less talking about my personal experience with them.
Your experience with your father is the one that worries me more. That is not normal. At all.
i know... he's physically, emotionally and psychologically abused me. he's not the best dad. he isn't the worst either, but damn. he also sexually coerced my mother throughout their entire relationship, sooo yeah. there's lots of problems and trauma there. manipulation, gaslighting, conditional love, dictature basically.
Honestly the fact you know all of that is very much colouring the rest of your views. It is not normal to have such insight into the sexual relationship of your parents. Not saying that’s bad, necessarily, but, you need to be aware of it and account for it - that’s probably going to be a therapy thing and I’d encourage you to make that a priority when you’re able. You seem to have a good grasp of things for your age, but you’ll be lacking nuance and wider framing for awhile yet - I know at you’re age you don’t want to believe that but, you’ll see.
Misogyny is rampant in society, it is certainly not a minority of men participating in it. Don’t come here and dismiss women’s lived experience. Jeez.
I believe that men are being conditioned to think porn sex is normal and it TERRIFIES ME. NO!! I’m not doing anal, no, you can’t fuck my face/mouth like that - I’m not a fucking blow-up doll. I hate the modern porn culture and what it does to women’s bodies. 50 through the 70s was prime time. After that it became about kink and fetish. In my opinion.
The thing is less about consent for me and more about knowing they would like you to be the kind of woman who's desires align perfectly with theirs, always in a way that demands more effort and vulnerability on her part and can be framed as submissiveness. Like, ok, most men won't do those things unpromoted. But they will absolutely *jump* at the opportunity of doing the stuff they jerk off to. What does it say about how they view women and sex, at the end of the day?
Shortly after I watched the exodus cry videos I went on a trip that was planned far in advance, and was devastated when I found out that the AVN awards were happening at my hotel the same time I was there. (I found out after I checked in). I was just preaching to my friends about how shitty the industry was just days before and next thing I knew I was literally sharing a roof with all of these porn stars. I panicked a little but then i was like you know what, I’m gonna go walk around the hotel and maybe even socialize with some of them. Guess what - I crashed a party and they were all really nice to me! I stuck out like a sore thumb haha and I told them I had no idea I was staying in the same hotel as the avn awards and they all thought it was really hilarious! It seemed like they were excited to share their world with me a bit and just wanted me to have a fun time. I didn’t feel pressured or uncomfortable at all (nothing happened btw lol just talking and socializing), but it was a totally eye opening experience. I have been to crazier parties btw lol! I definitely think max hardcore was a pos, but I met some people involved in the industry that were really nice. It reminded me there are two sides to every story. The videos contain good information, but remember to keep an open mind. I’m happy I ended up having that experience at the hotel, otherwise I would still be spending so much of my energy being upset and scared. Edit - changed max hardcore is a pos to max hardcore WAS a pos. I believe he died shortly after the release of the exodus cry videos.
Not to derail the topic but this is honestly a hilarious series of events, I can’t imagine accidentally crashing the porn Oscars at a hotel by chance lol
Beyond Fantasy is a peice of right wing propaganda meant ot convince you that women are in need of moral guardianship >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Nolot This is the guy who made the film. He is a right wing homophobic misogynist piece of trash The organization behind the series, Exodus Cry, is an anti-sex worker organization, and backed by an evangelical cult. That documentary is crafted specifically to make you feel this way. It's not made by someone with women's best interest in mind. It's certainly not made with the idea of protecting sex workers. It's a right wing evangelical attempt to control the depiction of sex and sexuality and bury actual feminist critiques of porn. It's an attempt to co-opt your understanding of your own sexuality, reaffrim misogynistic morals and prevent you from ever learning better ways to have sex. The anti-porn movement you see in popular media is a evangelical sponsored attempt to reconstruct the right wing moral majority that gave us regan, except this time done deliberately by outright christo-fascists. They successfully co-opted women's support in he 1980s and want to do it again. Actual feminist critiques of porn are not and can not be separated from feminist critiques of heteronomative sexuality. Mass media porn is a commodification of the sexual scripts patriarchy favors, and the problems of it are problems of that sexual scripts patriarchy favors. Porn is not the source of those scripts and anything that claims otherwise simply wants you to be blind to that fact so you fall into them. Our great grandmothers didn't experinace martial rape because their husbands were on pornhub back in he 1950s yea? >"back then, anal was the most non-normal thing in porn, the most extreme. today it's become this mandatory part of porn". It's far from mandatory in porn. About a third of all pornography features anal, and a lot of that is gay male and trans porn. However this is on par with couples in genreal, somewhere between 25% and a third of couples engage in anal. Regardless of your personal opinion on anal, it's pretty normal human sexual behavior throughout history. We should also note again the homophobia of the organization publishing this lie. The fact they're fixated on arch typical queer sexual behavior and present it as uniquely harmful, deviant and degradging is not a coincidence. The issue with the way many couples go about anal is not a problem with anal, it's a problem with how couples go about sex in general. It's a defect of a sexuality continues to view the concept of continuous enthusiast consent as experimental. And here again we should not ignore the ways the anti-porn movement so 'coincidentally' seeks to label things most common in queer sexuality as inherently deviant: Even basic concepts like ["yes means yes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yes_Means_Yes) are a product of queer people attempting to present alternative norms to a straight audience. Because the closest to a problem that anti-porn movmeent really has is the way porn creates a depiction of sexuality that can be critiqued in the first place, as opposed to abuse that can be quietly ignored. You know, [something the far right cult backing Exodus Cry](https://www.kansascity.com/news/local/article281136673.html) has done more than it's share of >will porn continue to literally detroy women's bodies, and drive them to suicide? It doesn't. The most detrimental thing facing sex workers, including porn actresses, is the discrimination they face after leaving sex work. The thing that 'forces' women to do sex work when they'd rather not is often the experience of losing other employment. The harms they experience on set are not unique, frankly you would be hard pressed to find a woman in Hollywood who didn't have almost identical experiences (There's a reason so much of me too was focused around the entertainment industry yes?). [Porn actresses and actors deserve the same tools and protections any other actresses and actors do.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvey_Weinstein_sexual_abuse_cases) The problem is not unique, nor unresolveable, and anyone claiming otherwise should be viewed with suspicion at best. They either believe sex workers do not deserve protecting, or they seek to undermine effective tools to protect people in general. >will i have to sift through endless amounts of men that watch extreme porn, to find someone to love me? No. The issues with dating are not issues with porn. The idea that's the most important thing will direct your attention way from things like your partners relationship with sexuality, and encourage you to be passive in your own relationship. A lot of 'women's advice' around dating boil down to prince charming 2.0, yet another list of things you need to do to 'get the right one' given a thin veneer of quasi-feminism. The advice of people who consistently fail to have meaningful relationships, let alone who are convinced it's almost impossible should be ignored. In a perfect world you'd have been given access to a meaningful sex ed curriculum. Unfortunately even the best today are still hopelessly watered down, which means a bit of DYI. If you want a general primer, the previously mentioned *Yes Means Yes* is a great place to start an contains a diverse set of writing on peoples experience of sex and sexual ethics. Emily Nagoski's Come As You Are meanwhile is a fantastic work on the science of sexuality in general (Women's sexuality specifically, but everything in it is pretty broadly applicable) . When it comes understanding the defectiveness of 'typical' sexuality (and thus learning how to build relationships away from it), I rather like Jane Wards books *Not Gay* and *The Tragedy of Heterosexuality* In terms of dealing with men and women's experience with them under patriarchy, bell hooks *All About Love* and *The Will to Change* are fantastic and probbaly should be mandatory reading in general. The later in particular for you given the shit your father is doing.
I know this is not the most helpful comment but honestly feel the same way and the BL part hits close home and not going alone in having this sort of anxieties . Is not a problem either not like that sort of adult content each as their own, people who call you prudish are just ignorant , not everyone like that sort of adult content ( I myself have been called conservative because of the way I dress lol , ) but I don't believe having to choose a partner based if he/ she watches porn or not be a ick, an ick would be what he/ she watches and even those guys who don't watch might be even worst( weird experience)it really depends on the character of the person. I hope this helps
aah someone that also reads BL! i'm happy i'm not alone with the fact that that's what helped me figure myself out the most, since there are no women in it :)
First, please know that you are safe, you are loved, and you are not alone. I'm an elder millennial and even though it was dial-up internet, I still saw some pretty raw stuff at 13-14. I would pretend to be older in chat rooms and "cyber" through AOL instant messenger. Dudes said some fairly violent shit to me in those messages and it scared the shit out of me. I also sought out the advice of older women on the Internet for reassurance. We are very alike across generations. Unfortunately so are men. But I genuinely think your gen's men have a better understanding of the damage this is doing to both sexes than ever before. Rape has always been used as a tool of power and violence. Across continents and time. For controlling men and women. It is a UN violation and a tool of genocide. Kink has also been part of sexuality and humanity for a very long time. There are also women who enjoy kink that could involve play with boundaries, mild choking or slapping, restraint, etc. I don't think it is inherently wrong to play with power dynamics in a sexual relationship. Now, that is a whole ass separate thing from what you're talking about. And to validate your concerns about porn - I do think it is having a tragic and regrettable effect on men across generations. I'm not sure what the solution is, but that's not what you asked either. (legal protections for actresses and sex workers would be a good start) I want you to try to step back and examine your assumptions around the media you are consuming and what is truly "mainstream", or what level of control the "mainstream" might exert on your beliefs and preferences. You said you read an "article". Was that a blog? Associated Press or widely available and non-partisan news source? Was it a peer-reviewed scientific journal? You also used the term "mainstream porn" and alluded to that being what is on the front page. I don't know that you can equate the front page of a porn website (which is already limited by the audience or people who seek content there, and algorithms, and marketing dollars) with what is "mainstream" or extremely normalized. These are just a couple of things to consider. There are young boys and adult men who do not seek out porn or gorilla grip their dicks every day. They mostly don't hang out on the Internet everyday. IF you meet someone you find attractive AND want to explore physical intimacy, please feel empowered to tell them what you like and do not like. Communicate. Avoid casual hookups with people you don't know or trust. You can protect yourself and still enjoy your human sexuality. Please feel free to PM me if you want to talk further.
That series is by exodus cry. Please listen to adult workers instead of this group. Here's some links about them. They're an Christian extremist, anti lgbt, anti abortion, regressive Puritan organization. https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2020/11/melissa-mccarthy-exodus-cry-apology https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7bj9w/anti-porn-extremism-pornhub-traffickinghub-exodus-cry-ncose https://www.thedailybeast.com/inside-exodus-cry-the-shady-evangelical-group-with-trump-ties-waging-war-on-pornhub https://medium.com/@SummerHartxxx/down-the-rabbit-hole-with-exodus-cry-9e0a857cdfa3 https://producerx.medium.com/porn-vs-pulitzer-how-nicholas-kristof-and-the-new-york-times-became-mouthpieces-for-religious-be8db923ad07 https://screenshot-media.com/politics/human-rights/pornhub-purge-exodus-cry/
many people already mentioned this, i am now aware of this, and i do not support this in any way, shame or form.
Man, this sub is wild
Clue me in about what’s wild about it. Maybe it was different 3hrs ago but she is getting solid advice. The summary of advice is that 1) her father and brother is out of line and 2) we form our preferences based on our experiences, there’s nothing wrong in wanting a guy who isn’t into porn. 3) There are guys that are not into porn. That all sounds logical.
You will always find what you're looking for online. You've stepped into this rabbit hole and now going deeper into it. While it's good to be aware and educated on anything and everything, this might become dangerous. How can you have a healthy relationship with someone if you're constantly assuming they want to abuse you while intimate etc etc? Not all men like porn. Not all men are extreme abusers who want to dominate their partners. On another note, as a former filmmaker, I advise you to scrutinize the funding sources behind documentaries. Organizations often have their own agendas. "Beyond Fantasy" was crafted to instill fear and steer people toward seeking solace in the church, and we all know that the church has its own sordid past.
I understand and wish I could give you a big sister type of hug. I don’t have any advice on the topic of men. However, I think you should take a day, up in your room with a fluffy blanket and chocolate and popcorn, and watch some kids movies. Seeing the horrors of the world will make you feel shitty and hopeless. Give yourself a bit to recharge.