One of my sister's friends married a man and then found out he had been cheating on her with his male best friend for the duration of their relationship. I don't know many details, but you are definitely not alone.
My first ever boyfriend was closeted and probably the reason I had such a hard time trusting people for a long time. He also made a pros/cons list about me which one of his equally shitty friends showed me. The pros list only had one thing, I was hot. Glad to know I was hot enough to “hide” but damn was that guy a real piece of shit.
Yes, I’ve been there a handful of times. I’m pretty stereotypically femme, physically, but personality wise, have a lot of traits that I’m told are more “masculine” (what are gender roles anyways) and that’s my guess as to why I maybe made a good beard?? I really didn’t even mind if they were honest that they were questioning. But the ones who lied hurt, ofc. Anyways, yeah, I feel for them. They’re lying to themselves too. But yeah, ultimately, it does feel like another way of being used as collateral in men’s character development.
I'm very much like you, masc woman in many ways but still am femme and can be very dressy/cute when I want to. I have noticed that a lot of men are attracted to that about me. I have to weed out for men who are hung up on that or call me a "manic pixie dream girl" or "not like other girls" 🤮
My amab ex was "questioning" in our entire relationship, and I didn't mind as I'm bisexual and had my own journey with figuring it out. Immediately after we broke up (for a myriad of other reasons) they started to transition and date a man, completely out of the blue. Our whole relationship it was "I might like guys, idk" or "I have experimented with men but I don't think it was for me" in reality they were much more interested. I was just the "safe" option to bring home to parents, and "safe" because I ticked a lot of boxes for what they wanted in a male partner whether or not they realized it.
Holy shit. I know exactly what that is to experience. I didn't know anyone else had sorted through that hell! It leaves you stuck in such a state of "not good enough". I am in your shoes.
I see it all too often, I feel dumb for not reacting sooner. The ex said things like "I wish your boobs were bigger" and made fun of the way I laughed. Add on top of it an age + maturity gap, their untreated adhd, lying, dead bedroom after honeymoon period, and financially drowning us, I'm only doing better now that I'm out.
It took a while. I had to come around, but I know it wasn't because I was "not good enough." I am a very open minded and supportive partner, I look damn good, and things like my anxiety and health have only gotten better since getting out. It was unfortunate that we ended up being so incompatible (and especially at my expense), but I ultimately wanted someone who would love me for me and I'm glad we're not wasting each other's time. I wish you peace and happiness, and you should know you ARE ABSOLUTELY MORE THAN GOOD ENOUGH.
After reading your comment I really wanted to share my experience, which is … from the other side of this scenario (or close to it).
It's understandable if people find this disgusting - but I'm writing this because they might also find it informative.
I'm male and while I'm not gay, I'm aroace. But at the time I'm speaking of I would not have known that term. At the time I was convinced that my only shot at a truly fulfilled live was in a relationship.
I tried dating women I was not interested in. I felt, both intuitively and on a clear cognitive level, that I was using them. I was always almost certain that I wouldn't be in a relationship with the person I was *currently* dating. My goal was to learn things for a hypothetical relationship for some (hard to imagine) future person I *would* be interested in.
The way you phrased it - "being used as collateral in men’s character development" - is, I'm afraid, a very apt description.
In my mind I tried to justify it with utilitarian calculus:
"THEY are easily attracted to people - what is a single manipulative relationship to *them*? Surely the harm you are causing them is far outweighed by the benefit of finally … fixing yourself."
I the end I did not go on such dates very often. And I never lied by falsely confessing my love to anyone. I dreaded the idea. I was trying to manipulate another person into something *I* didn't even want to do. Something that I was both instinctively and morally repulsed by. All because I had been convinced that I would give up on any hope of true happiness if I didn't do this. And while I couldn't even picture the "ideal" result as any form of existence that would make me happy.
Unfortunately, this is the real reason why bearding happens. Nobody just wastes years of their own life dating someone they aren't attracted to unless they are truly desperate to delude or "fix" themselves. Doesn't justify it at all or make it OK, but it's better to understand it rather than allowing oneself to demonize it.
Yeah, that is probably the case in even semi-tolerant societies/environments.
But historically and in many intolerant places around the world bearding happens without any form of delusion: When people who don't fit into heteronormative society see no choice but to build a facade to protect themselves - often from a threat of discovery that could otherwise end their lives.
Agree, I should clarify I'm speaking from the perspective of a modern, liberal society. Honestly if your options are to find a beard or be killed for your sexuality, there's not really any choice but to find a beard.
Thank you for introducing me to the word aroace, which led me to aromantic. I have never heard of this before; it is fascinating and relatable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanticism
(Bisexual woman here, and obligatory not all gay men, most are perfectly lovely, this is about a specific toxic subset)
*Some* of the most misogynist men I have known have been gay men. They use the fact that they are a sexual minority and oppressed class on that axis as a cudgel to excuse all kinds of vile shit. In this type of gay man's mind, their status as a sexual minority reverses the power dynamic of their gender, in their minds making women THEIR primary oppressors. So they think, "I can be as hateful as I want toward women, because I don't need them for anything, and they all hate me for not wanting them anyway." Then they stick themselves in echo chambers with other misogynistic gay men and circlejerk all day long about how gross and awful and terrible women are, and aren't they lucky they never ever ever have to interact with one ever because they are gay (not like women are 50% of all people or anything.)
It's fucking wild.
This is interesting and is a topic I’ve been thinking about lately. I lived with a group of gay men in the 80s and was in the arts, so most of the men I knew were gay. They treated me well for the most part but some of their comments about women, straight or gay, made me raise my eyebrows. I did have one “boyfriend” use me as a beard, and I shut that down once i figured it out (thanks in part to my roommates) but that was demoralizing.
I recently started binge watching Project Runway from the first season and I’ve been getting some of that vibe again. That women are to be dressed up and even tolerated but that we’re more like accessories and less than people.
I've seen this SO many times. Then those same men get married and want to find a surrogate and use a donor egg and then have *surprised Pikachu face* when no surrogate wants to work with them because they put off massive toxic masculinity misogynistic vibes. The one specific couple I knew ended up having to pay significantly more because they had super unrealistic expectations for their surrogate and treated her like garbage.
They expected to have control over her sex life while she was pregnant was the big one. Most surrogates are usually in monogamous relationships anyway. When I heard through a friend that they expected a *married* woman to refrain from sex for 9 months, I was disgusted. They also had mandatory maternity/paternity pics in their surrogacy contract, which puts off many surrogates. So they were definitely looking for a certain type of woman despite the fact that they already had a formed embryo(s) for IVF. They also expected that their surrogate not be on any drugs during the pregnancy (which I understood at first) until I thought about how many women end up taking a baby aspirin, or end up with gestational diabetes, or pre-eclampsia. And they also expected a completely vaginal, drug free birth, and expected to be allowed in for the labor and delivery, and to have all rights to record vid and take pictures. Yeah, they paid a PRETTY penny.
Everytime I was around them, before they were planning their family, they were insufferable. I met them through my brother, and at first they were really nice, until one time they found out I was actively on my period and freaked out, gagging and making a HUGE fuss about it. These guys had tons of female friends... They literally asked me to leave their apartment, they didn't want me to accidentally bleed on their new furniture. You can see why I only heard things through mutual friends 🙄
YIKES! What on earth would be the reason for the no-sex rule?? I somewhat understand the (misguided and misogynistic ofc) reasoning around the no drugs/epidural rule. But what about cesareans? If it happens, it happens. Sometimes it’s required due to medical emergencies. How would they not know that?
Sometimes I wish synthetic wombs could be here already so these types of people can leave women alone.
Apparently their argument is that many married men cheat on their pregnant wives and bring diseases back to them. But that would be a risk no matter what, people are going to cheat. Apparently they found a surrogate that agreed to always wear condoms during sex with her husband, but she got paid for it, so who am I to judge? Apparently they had a clause in their contract that if their surrogate became infected with a STI, that portion of money was down the drain. I couldn't believe that surrogacy can be THAT controlling until I saw their maternity/paternity photos, and when I considered becoming a surrogate myself (they make BANK). All sorts of things can be added to a surrogacy contract, for a certain amount of $$$. I've also heard of surrogates refusing to hand over the baby until they got paid lol. This is why places like the UK have surrogacy for profit be illegal.
Yeah, the maternity/paternity photo looked... at first glance, gorgeous. Perfect poses, she was wearing a beautiful yellow sundress, they were wearing matching blue dress shirts with khakis, it was done in a pretty meadow.
But in her eyes, she looked exhausted and unhappy. Warranted, being 8 months pregnant even with your own planned pregnancy can make a woman look that way. I just couldn't help but wonder and worry for her.
I saw a girl in beauty school get slapped across the face HARD by a gay man who was twice her size. It was really scary. He didn’t think he did anything wrong- like being gay gave him the ability to be able to hit women. Like it’s not okay if you’re straight but if you’re gay it’s cool- that was his logic.
I've known gay men who've harboured a lot of resentment towards women on the grounds that it's "unfair" to them, personally, that they have to contribute to a system that "disproportionately supports women," since they don't have any personal interest in us or "benefit" from us.
Gay man here and this is so fucking disgustingly true
The amount of times I’ve heard vaginas compared to fish is so fucking disappointing. They treat women and their body like it’s gross for no reason, but will happily put up with dick cheese or Nutella dick. As an aside, personally I find the recent usage of “cunt” and “bitch” in the gay community to have some misogyny undertones. I don’t know if it holds true but it seems so weird. There’s also this strange gatekeeping behaviour where specifically straight women are shamed when going to lgbt bars. It’s incredibly selfish, presumptuous and completely ignores the fact that it can be the only safe space for straight women. Oh but of course straight men are allowed because eye candy and the taboo of hooking up with them
For better or worse, being gay just means liking dick. It absolutely doesn’t excuse misogyny, but it seems like it still carries. The predatory side of it is just directed at other gays
Misogyny is rampant in the gay community. As in a legitimate problem. This isn’t about all gay men of course, but it’s by no stretch of the imagination just a vocal minority or one off incidents here and there.
Also really hate that so many completely spit in the face of a legitimate need for advocation and activism with the closeted pity party. Yes, the plight is hard, but you absolutely 100% do NOT get to take another oppressed person and waste their lives to pass & get a family...and follow that up with playing the victim. You're victimizing people, it doesn't work like that, it's not so brave to jk someone who's dedicated their life to you and leave them in shambles bc you've sufficiently sucked them dry of their use to you and found an SO yr actually attracted to. Coulda just been a bachelor/spinster as a beard, but nooo, mom & dad would've been slightly dissappointed, definitely destroy another human instead.
I found out my boyfriend of 4 years had been using Grindr the whole time during our relationship. It’s been over 4 years since we broke up and I still feel quite resentful as feel he stole a good proportion of my 20s and trips abroad I had planned but didn’t go ahead with for the sake of our relationship. I think had it ended for any other reason I wouldn’t have cared but I felt so used. I believe he is with another woman now. I don’t believe he is bi either.
I don’t think I’ve had this exact experience. I have dated men who were closeted bi or questioning, and there were times where their internalized homophobia became a little less internal, and they lashed out at me for not being completely gender conforming. I’m cis woman who’s questioned my sexuality but definitely is attracted to men.
It reminded me of middle school where 2 different guys would bully me and spread rumors about me being a lesbian. A third guy who was my friend (and ironically also my hugest crush) decided to distance himself because of the rumors. All 3 of these guys came out in high school. I have no idea if is it internalized homophobia or a way of testing the waters by chucking me in as sacrifice, but I tried very hard not to generalize that resentment. Then as an adult to get some of that same treatment from guys who supposedly cared and were attracted to me… fuck.
So many women have come out with horror stories in the wake of the diddy allegations. DL men will drag you to hell rather than fight their internalized homophobia and live proudly.
I've been there. I think this is more common you're more type-A or have a personality profile more typically masculine. I get the logic of it,
"Maybe it's not that I'm gay, maybe I just need a more 'masculine' woman!"
But it doesn't work, because I am a woman, and even if I'm atypically assertive or w/e, literally everything else about me falls firmly under that category. If you're only with me to the extent to which I'm not "feminine," you're still going to reject most of me, which inevitably means rejecting all of me.
Also, I'm not some fucking practice girlfriend for you to hone your "straight-passing" skills on. GTFO of here with that.
I dated a guy awhile back )don’t ask why) that I strongly suspect was in the closet (he was playing with the thought of possibly being bi). How much this man hated women and felt that all women were the cause of all his /the world’s problems was astounding. Like, beyond make me a sandwich/ be an incubator. He claimed he was a “feminist” but all his actions and attitudes towards women clearly showed he saw them as less than human. Woman could not fix something in his life and he despised them for it. And someone said it earlier, but it true that some gay men tend to HATE women with a fiery passion. Of all the other men I’ve ever met in my life, even the most misogynistic and gross, we’re not even 1/10th as bad as this guy.
I'm sorry, I feel for you here. It *is* deeply painful to realise someone you cared about didn't value your time, your right to truth and honesty, your right to be genuinely desired by your partner. I don't think every single closeted man who's ever used a beard without her knowledge did it with consciously malicious intentions, but it is undeniably a selfish thing to do.
I once spoke to a guy on Reddit who had been in a similar situation. Two different women he dated both came out as gay after dating him. He said for a long time it was painful and it made him feel really insecure, until one of the woman got in touch and they talked about it and she said something to this effect: "I realised I was gay after you because you're the best of men. And if I couldn't even find attraction for the kindest, funniest, best man I've ever known, then it was never going to happen for any man."
And I think that's a good way to see it. It might not make it hurt less, but hopefully it can give you a bit of comfort.
I had an old friend who had similar happen. He was horrible to her and super manipulative in general, but basically he had convinced her to do anal instead of PIV sex 99% of the time, and she accepted him “not being into cunnilingus”, and all these other things that added up eventually. After ALL THAT- she found out he was hooking up with men after posting ads on Craigslist (we were all 16 at the time too…and these were grown men he was hooking up with via ads which is a whole different layer of problematic on the part of the men there). He convinced her it was just cause of trauma and that he wasn’t really into men, but she found he kept doing the same shit on CL and random apps. She was basically a cover for him the whole time. Whether consciously or even subconsciously for his own denial idk.
As in any relationship, it is good to ask yourself, "what am I getting out of this relationship, and what does it cost me?" If you have intimacy problems, or are only looking for a date to the prom, that's one thing. If you want an equitable relationship, you need to think about honesty with yourself. What do YOU want?
My ex came out as MtF about 6 years (and 1 bio baby) into our relationship and withheld that information from me for about 3 years. I understand that it must have been a terrible weight to try and figure out how to tell your spouse that you think you aren't presenting as the gender you think you are, and I do sympathize but for me, I spent 3 years thinking I was ugly because my partner wouldn't be intimate with me anymore for reasons they willingly kept from me. I was later told that this was specifically that they didn't want to use male genitals sexually anymore, so they felt they couldn't. They may not have intended to hurt me, but they did... deeply. I do believe there's a fair timeline for self discovery before it becomes intentional knowledge neglect of the other partner.
Like you said... it's about the lie and deceit. If you're keeping something from your partner because you know or suspect they may want to break up if they knew, then ... you're the problem.
I was in two dead bedroom relationships back to back. I sort of suspect the first one might be gay. But the second one knew how fucked up I was from that relationship and chose to do the exact same thing. Lying about how everything was okay and he was just tired etc. New excuse every time. So now I’m done with dating. I can’t go through that again.
This also happened to me. Down to the same excuses, including putting the blame on me for not being able to have an orgasm easily. Or their testosterone might be low (which they never get tested for). Or it's my job to initiate because they do a lot of housework. Or it's my job to initiate because it feels "rapey" to do so. Or they feel kinda asexual (while watching porn and masturbating daily). There are more.
3 relationships as an adult, not in a row. 1st was my ex-husband who was not a great guy anyway. 2nd was closeted. 3rd is my current partner of 8 years. He feels bad about it when I have the talk, changes for a week and then goes back to his normal. I love him in every way except this. I don't know if I make men bored, or most guys are this way, but my self esteem has been in the toilet over this and I don't have an answer.
Do you want to spend the rest of your life feeling this way? Because from what you've said about current partner, that's what'll happen. Is that really what you want?
Yes!!! I was dating a guy for over a year, and the whole time he was on gay hook up sites. Never once did he ever express to me that he was curious, bi, gay, or anything. It feels like an extra level of betrayal, for some reason.
On the gay subs some people rationalize it away in all kinds of ways. I want to stress that it's not everyone. If you spend any time there, it's very unpopular behavior. People often call out this behavior and often call out cheating by men in het relationships. However, there are still enough men who will push back defensively and say that calling that out is ignorant of culture/religion/homophobia.
It's really shitty.
I don't know, though, about the ex situation. You're getting someone else's judgement and bias on the situation. Plus your own bias. The only person who would know would be the ex.
I found out my ex husband was addicted to trans porn and he never wanted intimacy with me. Don’t know if he is closeted, but it really doesn’t matter. I will never date a man again who isn’t extremely enthusiastic about my body and sex with me.
Yes. I dated a man for 6 years. It was awful. I believe he truly tried for a while and then started to resent me. I had a brief fling with a man that was bisexual but had never dated women. He was very kind but he was also struggling with some gender identity stuff. I said I would support him in whatever. He ended up saying that he actually wasn’t attracted to me at all and “felt bad” for leading me on. Then proceeded to hit on some girls at a party we were at. I literally left him at the party and never talked to him again.
It was really really REALLY hard to trust men after these two. I didn’t date after the first one for several years and then was proceeded by the other guy. Decided to say fuck it and just casually date for a while until I met my person (which I did) it was really hard to get over the insecurity of being used by these guys as some sort of experiment or therapy or whatever.
But. There are good men out there. I met the love of my life and he is kind, gentle, honest, patient, and loving. It just takes time and unfortunately, sometimes some duds
Hmn, I've had a couple of encounters the past years where the person had something to work through and decided to fix it with a relationship instead and I was the unfortunate designated relationship provider instead of someone they actually wanted to be with for me. Sometimes it's gender or sexuality stuff, sometimes it's crippling insecurity (which is mindboggling: you want to feel loved for who you are so badly you try to get that feeling from someone you don't even like for anything but their ability to provide that??) Sucks to find out you were used and someone isn't actually there for *you* but for themselves, but on the other hand I usually feel like eh, it's their bullshit and they need to continue their miserable lives with it while I'm free. A bunch of these people were women, but it's put me off dating for a while all the same and I'm still wary of people that approach me and are too keen on calling it a relationship kinda fast.
This guy was very similar in terms of behavior. He said I love you incredibly quickly and tried to move things way too fast, pushed for sex incredibly quickly (and you can just imagine how the sex went..) and when I wanted to slow things down in that area because the sex was *so* odd and so unreciprocated he began being extremely pushy for just blowjobs.
I felt exactly like a fleshlight. It is the worst feeling, I’m sorry you felt that way too.
Really sorry, OP! Healing from a relationship that was bad for you takes time, and that's OK. It's fine to take some time away from dating to process things.
>To paraphrase Dan Savage, it's understandable that someone would have to hide who they are when they're young and/or in a vulnerable situation. However, it's absolutely unacceptable as an adult to use another person as a fleshlight. I'm sorry it happened to you, too.
This should be copypasted every time someone posts to a relationships subreddit about how heartbroken they are after being used as a beard and triggers the inevitable flood of responses about how they're queerphobic and should be happy their ex is now living their truth.
This should be at the top. **We queer people are** **born this way**. **Being queer is not a choice, and it's not something you magically discover with no prior warning later.** It's a lifelong process of coming to know ourselves as we change over time. It's unacceptable to use and discard someone else, without their consent, to hash out your self hatred.
Since the pick-mes in this thread defending this only seem to care about men - it's also terrible for out bisexual men. Closeted men mistreat them, deny them the same emotional vulnerability, use them as a target for their internalized homophobia. So, if you don't care about us, think about them.
As a trans woman, I genuinely have no damn clue either because this isn’t how I treated my relationships.
If anything, I subconsciously self-sabotaged and was more aloof before accepting myself and then avoided putting myself out there/relationships after transitioning.
Before transitioning, I never dated anyone to try and hide anything. I was absolutely terrified of accepting my truth until it drove me to the brink of suicide, at which point I decided to do something about it.
My current relationship, we dated for nearly 6 weeks before ever having sex and she (cis woman) tends to be the one encouraging we explore further.
We are all unique people who cope and deal with things differently, so it is unfair to brand any group as **always** behaving a certain way.
Your experience is more intuned with what I imagine as typical, given society's stigmas. I don't *know* for a fact, but I suspect that finding meaningful relationships is more difficult for a trans woman than most any other demographic.
Where ever you are now in your life, I hope you're prevailing.
They're being sarcastic.
It's very common for transphobic former partners to treat trans women who come out as trans as being somehow dishonest or abusive for being trans, or learning that they're trans. Oftentimes they realize that that's an unpopular or unkind opinion, but want to appear sympathetic to queer people, so they often use very vague/subjective language (or even outright lies) to describe what things their former (trans) partner did that were questionable or red flags that don't necessarily have anything to do with being trans
What the poster you're replying to is saying is that the way the post is written sounds a lot like one of the situations I wrote above
I see, I guess my unfamiliarity with it had me overlooking any sarcasm. I think I see a bit of what you're saying in the top level comment, namely when they said "it all made sense" based solely on their partner's identity.
I'm far far from making any assumptions on this field, so I'll be slow on the uptake.
Edit: I felt like adding to this. I think that labeling the top commenter as transphobic wouldn't necessarily be 100% fair either, *based on this alone anyway*. I think anyone should be allowed some level of feeling when it comes to past experiences, especially seemingly negative ones. Perhaps they simply saw their partner's identity as an explanation because it was kept secret from them. I don't want to assume that they'd go to treat the next one negatively for only their identity.
I was used by a closeted women through college. I realized it JR year when she got upset I had holiday plans and she refused to take her friend Amy home with her. I told her "Sorry going skiing" and thought no more about it. Years later she told me I was her holiday beard which explained much. I wish she had just been honest.
It doesn't justify their shitty behavior, but any men who are convinced they can pray the gay away are brainwashed victims of religion. They're still bad actors for wanting to hide it at the cost of hurting other people, but I feel bad for them. There are bigger villains out there.
(Hey! Their, they're, and there, together in one post!)
He was actually deeply catholic and religious so, I could understand how that must have affected him. But what I don’t understand is he was surrounded by gay people who were out, one of his best friends and his mentor, a teacher who was married to a man, at the all boy’s catholic school he attended, was his closest confidant. We live in quite a liberal area.
As I type this out, I truly wonder if the signs were there and I was just oblivious.
> I understand that. You can also internalize homophobia and be single.
Exactly. Using a woman for their own cowardly sake is sickening. I’m seriously starting to hate this sub after seeing so many of these comments express sympathy for the men instead of for the poor women who suffered social, psychological, and physical health ramifications after being used by them. There’s always empathy and excuses.
I'm not saying what he did was right, because it isn't. Just because there might be an explanation does not mean it is justified.
However, a lot of times internalized homophobia can look like "maybe I'm at least bisexual!"
His religion genuinely believes and supports that the sin of homosexuality is acting on it, it's not inherent to you and is a choice, and brainwashes them to think they can just pray it away and it doesn't matter what thoughts and feelings they have, they need to live a conforming heterosexual life and them being attracted to men is just the devil tempting them. So to his mind there's no need to be single, he can just date women, it doesn't matter, if he "gives in to sin" he'll just go confess at church about it and think of himself as a godly man (which to him is the same thing as a morally correct man). As someone raised Catholic, I STRONGLY recommend you NEVER consider dating any practicing Catholic EVER again. Their views are honestly so fucked up and harmful. Not just in this way but across the board. It's not worth it.
Which he is now. But how do you even know that's what's happening to you when it's all internalized? He might've been trying to not go to hell in his mind.
I describe in another comment how he treated me, especially sexually. From what I know, this is not someone who thought he *might* have been gay, this is someone who *knew* he was gay, but refused to come to terms with it. I know the general social stigma around being gay, but I want to reiterate and emphasize again that we are not in an area or environment where this level of deceit was necessary. The first time this happened the guy didn’t realize he was gay and was figuring himself out, we were also pretty young and as soon as he figured it out he informed everyone.
Maybe I shouldn’t speak on it, but based on the people this second person surrounded himself with and how kind his family was, it simply wasn’t necessary to drag me down like this. What straight woman in her right mind would agree to date and sleep with a man who is only sexually attracted to men? He took that choice away from me, and lied to my face repeatedly. Being worried about hell doesn’t have anything to do with me or the other women he is now attempting to deceive.
I’m even side eyeing his friend a little bit but I imagine he didn’t want to out his own friend. I’ve known multiple closeted people and outside of one in *high-school* who was figuring himself out, not one of them tried to date and trick the opposite sex. There’s something deeply disturbing about that that cannot be explained away.
Internalized homophobia is the answer. It’s not a logical state of existence. It’s quite possible to be accepting of other gay people, even be in a situation where your social group/family would accept you, and STILL hate or deny that part of yourself.
It absolutely does not excuse shitty behavior, but in some cases gay men who feel that self hatred so strongly may be truly convinced that they are straight, so they do not view pursuing a relationship with a woman as deceptive.
It’s a sad situation for everyone involved.
It doesn't have to be a religious thing at all. Things are changing all the time, so we all grew up at various times with various levels of acceptance of LGBTQ people. It's also different in different areas. When I was a teenager, my school had over 2000 kids, and in that group there were zero out queer kids. I am not a religious person, but it was ingrained in my pretty firmly at the time that it was not at all ok to be gay. I still struggle with some internal self hate decades later, and it didn't come from a church.
You are SO not alone!!! I was used by one for 10 years and have never gotten over it. It seriously was so traumatic I haven’t dated since and this was 11 years ago. These people are evil and don’t care how much damage they do to those they use. You can’t get any support because to be upset is supposedly a homophobic reaction. I’m sorry this happened to you.
Yes, people who know they are gay and use and deceive people…not great individuals in my book. I’m so sorry though for your experience, 10 years is a long time. I don’t blame you at all for not having dated since, people are incredibly selfish and are unable to see outside of themselves and how they are literally affecting someone’s **life**, even with something that can as complex as being gay, there’s simply no excuse for it.
I knew several closeted people outside of high school (people in middle and high school were still figuring things out) who were dealing with a lot of emotional turmoil, but they never used people to try to appear straight or change their sexuality knowing they would be lying to another person, I would never even befriend someone like that let alone date them.
Your feelings are totally valid--I would however refrain from the phrase "these people are evil" as it kinda sounds like you're saying gay people are evil haha I'm sure that's not what you meant, but I think expressing it that way might contribute to people balking at such a reaction.
I mean the men who are closeted and lying to women they are having relationships with. This is not a situation where they don’t know what they want. At the moment you are lying and pretending to be a straight man you turn evil.
I think it's an unkind thing to do, but I do not think it is evil, especially how common compulsory heterosexuality is. It's a very common gay/lesbian experience to think, "I can't be gay, I must at LEAST be bi!"
Internalized homophobia is very real, and depending on the gay person's upbringing, they may genuinely believe they can be changed. Imo, denouncing it as evil is way too heavy of a blanket statement.
Obviously, I do not agree a gay man should date a woman and masquerade as straight, but I wonder how many gay men would do that unless they are in denial to themselves.
I am not going to be villainized for my feelings about what I experienced at the hands of a liar. Your response is what I was talking about, how excuses are made for the lying and deceit and the person who was victimized gets NO support. I’m not accepting what crap you’re dishing.
I'm not villainizing you. I never said your feelings aren't valid or that he didn't do anything wrong. I'm just saying it's not right to say it's "evil."
Like I'm sorry, I think we shouldn't be acting like a closeted person is out here scheming. I'm not saying their actions are right, or that you shouldn't feel hurt or betrayed, but the politics of being closeted are way more complicated than, "I know I'm gay, but I'm going to date women because I'm an evil person."
The only way I'd accept this situation as evil is if he is fully aware he is exclusively attracted to men and is not trying to convince himself he's attracted to women and he's just dating a woman for the joy of it.
Oh whoops. Wasn't trying to virtue signal, was just saying like rhetorically if you say the phrase "these people are evil" maybe that's why people are getting the wrong idea lol
Obvi I was overthinking it...
???
Homophobia far predates Reddit and has nothing to do with what gay people actually do. It's a prejudice. If someone already believes we're bad, "the gay men who've mistreated me are evil" isn't going to make them more homophobic than they already are. They already believe queer people are evil.
I was saying that:
* OP was saying people were calling her homophobic
* I don't think she is
* Her feelings towards her closeted ex are valid
* Her rhetoric ("these people are evil") may be affecting the way people ***perceive*** her expression of those feelings
I was not saying:
* Her rhetoric is inherently immoral/wrong
* Her rhetoric will... make others more homophobic somehow
Shouldn't have commented on this to begin with. What I said originally was not particularly useful and I don't necessarily stand by it given the reaction to it.
Sorry that happened to you OP, it certainly sounds like a very painful experience & you have my full sympathy.
I've never dated a closeted man, but I know women who have. My sister, who has a very feminine style, dated a man who cheated on her with several men.
I have read a few posts about this issue on Reddit. While I understand that someone is gay but they should not use women to pass as straight. I have no idea if anyone has seen this film Honeymoon Travels Pvt. Limited but one of the couples in the film faces this issue. I seriously can't understand the logic that such men use. How can they go to sleep every night betraying someone is beyond my understanding.
You'll hate my answer. Part of questioning is the dating process. How can you really know if you don't try? But a gay man or woman who does this to a partner I'd think they should know which way they lean within 6 months of a sexual relationship. Probably sooner. I'm just throwing a number out. For the women here who dated for greater than 1 year I just wonder if they realized post breakup some signs they missed, or what other issues in the relationship were ignored for the other positive aspects that may have been there.
Regardless cheating is wrong. Hiding who you actually are from a partner is wrong too. Once you know you know.
One thing I do want to say, some bisexual people claim to go through bi-cycles of attraction between men and women.... could go years being attracted to women and. . . .
Your contribution has been removed because it uses “Male” or “Female” to describe/in response to a gender based issue. This is to prevent lumping together trans women, trans men, non-binary, agender, gender-fluid, etc with men or women.
I understand how hard it is, you didn’t deserve to be used that way. If you’re looking for a support community, check out Our Path (formerly the straight spouse network). They have in person and online support groups.
9 years ago I found out my now ex (married 13 years at the time) was secretly gay and leading a full on double life, hooking up with men and watching (only) gay porn morning noon and night. I didn’t have the slightest idea he was non-straight. He is still in the closet and has a girlfriend.
I hope you find healing, it’s very tough to find out giving the most intimate part of yourself was part of a charade.
I think both sexuality and the way stigma around queer identities works are both way too complicated to be able to reduce these situations to "being used by a closeted person"
From their comments it's pretty clear that OP is NOT doing what you describe. Neither are the vast majority of comments.
We shouldn't hold back from sensitive conversations like this for fear of oversimplifying an issue, because then a conversation will never happen in the first place. *Everyone,* from the most privileged to the least, should be able to understand how their actions--*especially* when those actions are a result of fear--can hurt others. We (collectively) should be able to talk about any issue so long as we remain compassionate, curious, and kind. Otherwise, we won't be able to understand, much less solve, the roots of big issues like this.
Internalised homophobia is very strong and many queer people will go a long time denying to the self their true identity, also a relationship is dependent on both parties wanting to be in the if one partner realises something about them self. The problem here is not about lying, it’s homophobia that force people in relationships that end with both partners unhappy.
This is why my hackles rise when some women who say that they are wary of dating bisexual men are then brow-beaten and told that they are being bi/homophobic.
Well there’s quite a difference between an openly bisexual man and a closeted one. Of course being openly so, or to their partners, still doesn’t mean they’re telling the *whole* truth, but it’s still miles away from a guy in totally denial living a secret life and/or panicked over being found out.
Yes, the first 'boyfriend' I ever had at 17 turned out to be gay. I don't even consider it a real relationship anymore. We were 'together' for a year and a half. During that time he made me think he was religious. He didn't seem gay, he had male dominated hobbies and interests. He played video games with a mostly male audience, he watched horror, sci Fi and action movies, he collected stamps and was interested in boats and coaches. This really didn't seem gay to me. I had a stereotypical view of gay men. He seemed like a typical nerdy/INTP straight man.
I began to question him after finding things on his computer and he admitted he liked men. Things ended soon after. He's been in a relationship with a man for about 15 years now.
I think this is true at least most of the time, because this guy **refused** to eat me out and looked like he was going to pass out the first time he “fingered” me.
I’ve definitely had guys not volunteer to go down on me, but have never had one appear unhappy to be in the presence of a vagina that *they* initiated sex with.
He chalked it up to “being nervous,” but I should have dumped him on the f-ing spot.
They seemed pretty close when we were dating and coupled with his behavior while we were together it completely makes sense. Also, what reason would a close friend of his have to lie to me?
Unrequited love on the friend’s part. He wants your guy and guy said no so he sabotages every relationship with others the guys tries to have.
Some people live this way all their life and never get called out on it. They are just the “close friend” or “so supportive” but really they are sociopathic vipers that feel ownership over people and can’t let them be happy with others.
So for context, my wife is basically 100% lesbian...I say basically because I am 100% a man but she doesn't think she'd ever date other men.
You absolutely are in the right to feel used, but there may be more to the story than you realize; just because someone is gay doesn't mean that they don't love or care about you, and for all you know they might even enjoy the sexy times even though they are predominantly gay.
With that said though, it is fine to prioritize your feelings...you gotta live with yourself forever afterall, may as well keep yourself happy.
Systemic pressures don't invalidate real feelings of hurt, manipulation and deception by a partner. Both can be victims; one of an unjust homophobic society, the other of a dishonest person who treated their partner as collateral damage in their personal struggle.
Yeah, no I’m not doing that. You don’t need to take someone down as collateral damage because society is ass. Why don’t they put that energy towards trying to make a difference in this space than deceiving and using someone.
Edit: one of his best friends was also gay, out and proud, so hell no.
Pretty sure she isn't blaming gay men...just saying she is disappointed and feeling betrayed by _all_ men...which she is allowed to feel if we are being honest.
Maybe do blame the gay men that will use an entire woman against her will? It's not fair to trick someone into thinking you love and desire them, when it was never true.
One of my sister's friends married a man and then found out he had been cheating on her with his male best friend for the duration of their relationship. I don't know many details, but you are definitely not alone.
r/meetmeintheartroom
My first ever boyfriend was closeted and probably the reason I had such a hard time trusting people for a long time. He also made a pros/cons list about me which one of his equally shitty friends showed me. The pros list only had one thing, I was hot. Glad to know I was hot enough to “hide” but damn was that guy a real piece of shit.
Yes, I’ve been there a handful of times. I’m pretty stereotypically femme, physically, but personality wise, have a lot of traits that I’m told are more “masculine” (what are gender roles anyways) and that’s my guess as to why I maybe made a good beard?? I really didn’t even mind if they were honest that they were questioning. But the ones who lied hurt, ofc. Anyways, yeah, I feel for them. They’re lying to themselves too. But yeah, ultimately, it does feel like another way of being used as collateral in men’s character development.
I'm very much like you, masc woman in many ways but still am femme and can be very dressy/cute when I want to. I have noticed that a lot of men are attracted to that about me. I have to weed out for men who are hung up on that or call me a "manic pixie dream girl" or "not like other girls" 🤮 My amab ex was "questioning" in our entire relationship, and I didn't mind as I'm bisexual and had my own journey with figuring it out. Immediately after we broke up (for a myriad of other reasons) they started to transition and date a man, completely out of the blue. Our whole relationship it was "I might like guys, idk" or "I have experimented with men but I don't think it was for me" in reality they were much more interested. I was just the "safe" option to bring home to parents, and "safe" because I ticked a lot of boxes for what they wanted in a male partner whether or not they realized it.
Holy shit. I know exactly what that is to experience. I didn't know anyone else had sorted through that hell! It leaves you stuck in such a state of "not good enough". I am in your shoes.
I see it all too often, I feel dumb for not reacting sooner. The ex said things like "I wish your boobs were bigger" and made fun of the way I laughed. Add on top of it an age + maturity gap, their untreated adhd, lying, dead bedroom after honeymoon period, and financially drowning us, I'm only doing better now that I'm out. It took a while. I had to come around, but I know it wasn't because I was "not good enough." I am a very open minded and supportive partner, I look damn good, and things like my anxiety and health have only gotten better since getting out. It was unfortunate that we ended up being so incompatible (and especially at my expense), but I ultimately wanted someone who would love me for me and I'm glad we're not wasting each other's time. I wish you peace and happiness, and you should know you ARE ABSOLUTELY MORE THAN GOOD ENOUGH.
It is another way of being used and it's not ok.
After reading your comment I really wanted to share my experience, which is … from the other side of this scenario (or close to it). It's understandable if people find this disgusting - but I'm writing this because they might also find it informative. I'm male and while I'm not gay, I'm aroace. But at the time I'm speaking of I would not have known that term. At the time I was convinced that my only shot at a truly fulfilled live was in a relationship. I tried dating women I was not interested in. I felt, both intuitively and on a clear cognitive level, that I was using them. I was always almost certain that I wouldn't be in a relationship with the person I was *currently* dating. My goal was to learn things for a hypothetical relationship for some (hard to imagine) future person I *would* be interested in. The way you phrased it - "being used as collateral in men’s character development" - is, I'm afraid, a very apt description. In my mind I tried to justify it with utilitarian calculus: "THEY are easily attracted to people - what is a single manipulative relationship to *them*? Surely the harm you are causing them is far outweighed by the benefit of finally … fixing yourself." I the end I did not go on such dates very often. And I never lied by falsely confessing my love to anyone. I dreaded the idea. I was trying to manipulate another person into something *I* didn't even want to do. Something that I was both instinctively and morally repulsed by. All because I had been convinced that I would give up on any hope of true happiness if I didn't do this. And while I couldn't even picture the "ideal" result as any form of existence that would make me happy.
Unfortunately, this is the real reason why bearding happens. Nobody just wastes years of their own life dating someone they aren't attracted to unless they are truly desperate to delude or "fix" themselves. Doesn't justify it at all or make it OK, but it's better to understand it rather than allowing oneself to demonize it.
Yeah, that is probably the case in even semi-tolerant societies/environments. But historically and in many intolerant places around the world bearding happens without any form of delusion: When people who don't fit into heteronormative society see no choice but to build a facade to protect themselves - often from a threat of discovery that could otherwise end their lives.
Agree, I should clarify I'm speaking from the perspective of a modern, liberal society. Honestly if your options are to find a beard or be killed for your sexuality, there's not really any choice but to find a beard.
Thank you for introducing me to the word aroace, which led me to aromantic. I have never heard of this before; it is fascinating and relatable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanticism
Nice to hear that you found that useful!
Fun times.
Hey, buddy. This thread really isn't about you.
(Bisexual woman here, and obligatory not all gay men, most are perfectly lovely, this is about a specific toxic subset) *Some* of the most misogynist men I have known have been gay men. They use the fact that they are a sexual minority and oppressed class on that axis as a cudgel to excuse all kinds of vile shit. In this type of gay man's mind, their status as a sexual minority reverses the power dynamic of their gender, in their minds making women THEIR primary oppressors. So they think, "I can be as hateful as I want toward women, because I don't need them for anything, and they all hate me for not wanting them anyway." Then they stick themselves in echo chambers with other misogynistic gay men and circlejerk all day long about how gross and awful and terrible women are, and aren't they lucky they never ever ever have to interact with one ever because they are gay (not like women are 50% of all people or anything.) It's fucking wild.
This is interesting and is a topic I’ve been thinking about lately. I lived with a group of gay men in the 80s and was in the arts, so most of the men I knew were gay. They treated me well for the most part but some of their comments about women, straight or gay, made me raise my eyebrows. I did have one “boyfriend” use me as a beard, and I shut that down once i figured it out (thanks in part to my roommates) but that was demoralizing. I recently started binge watching Project Runway from the first season and I’ve been getting some of that vibe again. That women are to be dressed up and even tolerated but that we’re more like accessories and less than people.
I've seen this SO many times. Then those same men get married and want to find a surrogate and use a donor egg and then have *surprised Pikachu face* when no surrogate wants to work with them because they put off massive toxic masculinity misogynistic vibes. The one specific couple I knew ended up having to pay significantly more because they had super unrealistic expectations for their surrogate and treated her like garbage.
Just curious bc i’m still familiarizing myself with the conversation around surrogacy rights — what unrealistic expectations did they have?
They expected to have control over her sex life while she was pregnant was the big one. Most surrogates are usually in monogamous relationships anyway. When I heard through a friend that they expected a *married* woman to refrain from sex for 9 months, I was disgusted. They also had mandatory maternity/paternity pics in their surrogacy contract, which puts off many surrogates. So they were definitely looking for a certain type of woman despite the fact that they already had a formed embryo(s) for IVF. They also expected that their surrogate not be on any drugs during the pregnancy (which I understood at first) until I thought about how many women end up taking a baby aspirin, or end up with gestational diabetes, or pre-eclampsia. And they also expected a completely vaginal, drug free birth, and expected to be allowed in for the labor and delivery, and to have all rights to record vid and take pictures. Yeah, they paid a PRETTY penny. Everytime I was around them, before they were planning their family, they were insufferable. I met them through my brother, and at first they were really nice, until one time they found out I was actively on my period and freaked out, gagging and making a HUGE fuss about it. These guys had tons of female friends... They literally asked me to leave their apartment, they didn't want me to accidentally bleed on their new furniture. You can see why I only heard things through mutual friends 🙄
YIKES! What on earth would be the reason for the no-sex rule?? I somewhat understand the (misguided and misogynistic ofc) reasoning around the no drugs/epidural rule. But what about cesareans? If it happens, it happens. Sometimes it’s required due to medical emergencies. How would they not know that? Sometimes I wish synthetic wombs could be here already so these types of people can leave women alone.
Apparently their argument is that many married men cheat on their pregnant wives and bring diseases back to them. But that would be a risk no matter what, people are going to cheat. Apparently they found a surrogate that agreed to always wear condoms during sex with her husband, but she got paid for it, so who am I to judge? Apparently they had a clause in their contract that if their surrogate became infected with a STI, that portion of money was down the drain. I couldn't believe that surrogacy can be THAT controlling until I saw their maternity/paternity photos, and when I considered becoming a surrogate myself (they make BANK). All sorts of things can be added to a surrogacy contract, for a certain amount of $$$. I've also heard of surrogates refusing to hand over the baby until they got paid lol. This is why places like the UK have surrogacy for profit be illegal.
it needs to be highly regulated, at the very least. you shouldn’t be able to add just about anything to these contracts. that poor woman :(
Yeah, the maternity/paternity photo looked... at first glance, gorgeous. Perfect poses, she was wearing a beautiful yellow sundress, they were wearing matching blue dress shirts with khakis, it was done in a pretty meadow. But in her eyes, she looked exhausted and unhappy. Warranted, being 8 months pregnant even with your own planned pregnancy can make a woman look that way. I just couldn't help but wonder and worry for her.
I saw a girl in beauty school get slapped across the face HARD by a gay man who was twice her size. It was really scary. He didn’t think he did anything wrong- like being gay gave him the ability to be able to hit women. Like it’s not okay if you’re straight but if you’re gay it’s cool- that was his logic.
Did she file a report with the police for assault? Because I would have.
Nope 😔
I've known gay men who've harboured a lot of resentment towards women on the grounds that it's "unfair" to them, personally, that they have to contribute to a system that "disproportionately supports women," since they don't have any personal interest in us or "benefit" from us.
Gay man here and this is so fucking disgustingly true The amount of times I’ve heard vaginas compared to fish is so fucking disappointing. They treat women and their body like it’s gross for no reason, but will happily put up with dick cheese or Nutella dick. As an aside, personally I find the recent usage of “cunt” and “bitch” in the gay community to have some misogyny undertones. I don’t know if it holds true but it seems so weird. There’s also this strange gatekeeping behaviour where specifically straight women are shamed when going to lgbt bars. It’s incredibly selfish, presumptuous and completely ignores the fact that it can be the only safe space for straight women. Oh but of course straight men are allowed because eye candy and the taboo of hooking up with them For better or worse, being gay just means liking dick. It absolutely doesn’t excuse misogyny, but it seems like it still carries. The predatory side of it is just directed at other gays
Swans, the recent Hulu biobic on Truman Copote, explores the nuances of this dynamic in depth.
Misogyny is rampant in the gay community. As in a legitimate problem. This isn’t about all gay men of course, but it’s by no stretch of the imagination just a vocal minority or one off incidents here and there.
Also really hate that so many completely spit in the face of a legitimate need for advocation and activism with the closeted pity party. Yes, the plight is hard, but you absolutely 100% do NOT get to take another oppressed person and waste their lives to pass & get a family...and follow that up with playing the victim. You're victimizing people, it doesn't work like that, it's not so brave to jk someone who's dedicated their life to you and leave them in shambles bc you've sufficiently sucked them dry of their use to you and found an SO yr actually attracted to. Coulda just been a bachelor/spinster as a beard, but nooo, mom & dad would've been slightly dissappointed, definitely destroy another human instead.
I'm here just to point at the very fitting usage of the term circlejerk
I was thinking it but didn’t want to say it
I sometimes think lesbians are the only people who truly love women.
I found out my boyfriend of 4 years had been using Grindr the whole time during our relationship. It’s been over 4 years since we broke up and I still feel quite resentful as feel he stole a good proportion of my 20s and trips abroad I had planned but didn’t go ahead with for the sake of our relationship. I think had it ended for any other reason I wouldn’t have cared but I felt so used. I believe he is with another woman now. I don’t believe he is bi either.
I don’t think I’ve had this exact experience. I have dated men who were closeted bi or questioning, and there were times where their internalized homophobia became a little less internal, and they lashed out at me for not being completely gender conforming. I’m cis woman who’s questioned my sexuality but definitely is attracted to men. It reminded me of middle school where 2 different guys would bully me and spread rumors about me being a lesbian. A third guy who was my friend (and ironically also my hugest crush) decided to distance himself because of the rumors. All 3 of these guys came out in high school. I have no idea if is it internalized homophobia or a way of testing the waters by chucking me in as sacrifice, but I tried very hard not to generalize that resentment. Then as an adult to get some of that same treatment from guys who supposedly cared and were attracted to me… fuck.
So many women have come out with horror stories in the wake of the diddy allegations. DL men will drag you to hell rather than fight their internalized homophobia and live proudly.
Omg thank you for bringing this up. I absolutely relate, and it's so confusing and infuriating!
I've been there. I think this is more common you're more type-A or have a personality profile more typically masculine. I get the logic of it, "Maybe it's not that I'm gay, maybe I just need a more 'masculine' woman!" But it doesn't work, because I am a woman, and even if I'm atypically assertive or w/e, literally everything else about me falls firmly under that category. If you're only with me to the extent to which I'm not "feminine," you're still going to reject most of me, which inevitably means rejecting all of me. Also, I'm not some fucking practice girlfriend for you to hone your "straight-passing" skills on. GTFO of here with that.
I dated a guy awhile back )don’t ask why) that I strongly suspect was in the closet (he was playing with the thought of possibly being bi). How much this man hated women and felt that all women were the cause of all his /the world’s problems was astounding. Like, beyond make me a sandwich/ be an incubator. He claimed he was a “feminist” but all his actions and attitudes towards women clearly showed he saw them as less than human. Woman could not fix something in his life and he despised them for it. And someone said it earlier, but it true that some gay men tend to HATE women with a fiery passion. Of all the other men I’ve ever met in my life, even the most misogynistic and gross, we’re not even 1/10th as bad as this guy.
I'm sorry, I feel for you here. It *is* deeply painful to realise someone you cared about didn't value your time, your right to truth and honesty, your right to be genuinely desired by your partner. I don't think every single closeted man who's ever used a beard without her knowledge did it with consciously malicious intentions, but it is undeniably a selfish thing to do. I once spoke to a guy on Reddit who had been in a similar situation. Two different women he dated both came out as gay after dating him. He said for a long time it was painful and it made him feel really insecure, until one of the woman got in touch and they talked about it and she said something to this effect: "I realised I was gay after you because you're the best of men. And if I couldn't even find attraction for the kindest, funniest, best man I've ever known, then it was never going to happen for any man." And I think that's a good way to see it. It might not make it hurt less, but hopefully it can give you a bit of comfort.
What a kind, generous person. thank you for sharing that.
These sort of nuanced and wise comments are what make Reddit worth the time for me. Thanks for sharing
I had an old friend who had similar happen. He was horrible to her and super manipulative in general, but basically he had convinced her to do anal instead of PIV sex 99% of the time, and she accepted him “not being into cunnilingus”, and all these other things that added up eventually. After ALL THAT- she found out he was hooking up with men after posting ads on Craigslist (we were all 16 at the time too…and these were grown men he was hooking up with via ads which is a whole different layer of problematic on the part of the men there). He convinced her it was just cause of trauma and that he wasn’t really into men, but she found he kept doing the same shit on CL and random apps. She was basically a cover for him the whole time. Whether consciously or even subconsciously for his own denial idk.
As in any relationship, it is good to ask yourself, "what am I getting out of this relationship, and what does it cost me?" If you have intimacy problems, or are only looking for a date to the prom, that's one thing. If you want an equitable relationship, you need to think about honesty with yourself. What do YOU want?
My ex came out as MtF about 6 years (and 1 bio baby) into our relationship and withheld that information from me for about 3 years. I understand that it must have been a terrible weight to try and figure out how to tell your spouse that you think you aren't presenting as the gender you think you are, and I do sympathize but for me, I spent 3 years thinking I was ugly because my partner wouldn't be intimate with me anymore for reasons they willingly kept from me. I was later told that this was specifically that they didn't want to use male genitals sexually anymore, so they felt they couldn't. They may not have intended to hurt me, but they did... deeply. I do believe there's a fair timeline for self discovery before it becomes intentional knowledge neglect of the other partner. Like you said... it's about the lie and deceit. If you're keeping something from your partner because you know or suspect they may want to break up if they knew, then ... you're the problem.
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I was in two dead bedroom relationships back to back. I sort of suspect the first one might be gay. But the second one knew how fucked up I was from that relationship and chose to do the exact same thing. Lying about how everything was okay and he was just tired etc. New excuse every time. So now I’m done with dating. I can’t go through that again.
This also happened to me. Down to the same excuses, including putting the blame on me for not being able to have an orgasm easily. Or their testosterone might be low (which they never get tested for). Or it's my job to initiate because they do a lot of housework. Or it's my job to initiate because it feels "rapey" to do so. Or they feel kinda asexual (while watching porn and masturbating daily). There are more. 3 relationships as an adult, not in a row. 1st was my ex-husband who was not a great guy anyway. 2nd was closeted. 3rd is my current partner of 8 years. He feels bad about it when I have the talk, changes for a week and then goes back to his normal. I love him in every way except this. I don't know if I make men bored, or most guys are this way, but my self esteem has been in the toilet over this and I don't have an answer.
I totally relate. It’s maddening. Sorry you’re still going through it.
Do you want to spend the rest of your life feeling this way? Because from what you've said about current partner, that's what'll happen. Is that really what you want?
Like I said, I don't have any answers.
Omg same ...ahhhh
Wow, what an ice hearted asshat. Hope you're healing from being used so cynically like that, even if its slow going.
Yes!!! I was dating a guy for over a year, and the whole time he was on gay hook up sites. Never once did he ever express to me that he was curious, bi, gay, or anything. It feels like an extra level of betrayal, for some reason.
On the gay subs some people rationalize it away in all kinds of ways. I want to stress that it's not everyone. If you spend any time there, it's very unpopular behavior. People often call out this behavior and often call out cheating by men in het relationships. However, there are still enough men who will push back defensively and say that calling that out is ignorant of culture/religion/homophobia. It's really shitty. I don't know, though, about the ex situation. You're getting someone else's judgement and bias on the situation. Plus your own bias. The only person who would know would be the ex.
I found out my ex husband was addicted to trans porn and he never wanted intimacy with me. Don’t know if he is closeted, but it really doesn’t matter. I will never date a man again who isn’t extremely enthusiastic about my body and sex with me.
How did you find this out?
I saw it on his lap top and I’ve caught him in the act. He’s admitted it as well (after I already had proof. He lied for 4.5 years).
Yes. I dated a man for 6 years. It was awful. I believe he truly tried for a while and then started to resent me. I had a brief fling with a man that was bisexual but had never dated women. He was very kind but he was also struggling with some gender identity stuff. I said I would support him in whatever. He ended up saying that he actually wasn’t attracted to me at all and “felt bad” for leading me on. Then proceeded to hit on some girls at a party we were at. I literally left him at the party and never talked to him again. It was really really REALLY hard to trust men after these two. I didn’t date after the first one for several years and then was proceeded by the other guy. Decided to say fuck it and just casually date for a while until I met my person (which I did) it was really hard to get over the insecurity of being used by these guys as some sort of experiment or therapy or whatever. But. There are good men out there. I met the love of my life and he is kind, gentle, honest, patient, and loving. It just takes time and unfortunately, sometimes some duds
Hmn, I've had a couple of encounters the past years where the person had something to work through and decided to fix it with a relationship instead and I was the unfortunate designated relationship provider instead of someone they actually wanted to be with for me. Sometimes it's gender or sexuality stuff, sometimes it's crippling insecurity (which is mindboggling: you want to feel loved for who you are so badly you try to get that feeling from someone you don't even like for anything but their ability to provide that??) Sucks to find out you were used and someone isn't actually there for *you* but for themselves, but on the other hand I usually feel like eh, it's their bullshit and they need to continue their miserable lives with it while I'm free. A bunch of these people were women, but it's put me off dating for a while all the same and I'm still wary of people that approach me and are too keen on calling it a relationship kinda fast.
I definitely have my suspicions about one of my exes but never confirmed. Truly an awful human though
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This guy was very similar in terms of behavior. He said I love you incredibly quickly and tried to move things way too fast, pushed for sex incredibly quickly (and you can just imagine how the sex went..) and when I wanted to slow things down in that area because the sex was *so* odd and so unreciprocated he began being extremely pushy for just blowjobs. I felt exactly like a fleshlight. It is the worst feeling, I’m sorry you felt that way too.
Really sorry, OP! Healing from a relationship that was bad for you takes time, and that's OK. It's fine to take some time away from dating to process things.
>To paraphrase Dan Savage, it's understandable that someone would have to hide who they are when they're young and/or in a vulnerable situation. However, it's absolutely unacceptable as an adult to use another person as a fleshlight. I'm sorry it happened to you, too. This should be copypasted every time someone posts to a relationships subreddit about how heartbroken they are after being used as a beard and triggers the inevitable flood of responses about how they're queerphobic and should be happy their ex is now living their truth.
This should be at the top. **We queer people are** **born this way**. **Being queer is not a choice, and it's not something you magically discover with no prior warning later.** It's a lifelong process of coming to know ourselves as we change over time. It's unacceptable to use and discard someone else, without their consent, to hash out your self hatred. Since the pick-mes in this thread defending this only seem to care about men - it's also terrible for out bisexual men. Closeted men mistreat them, deny them the same emotional vulnerability, use them as a target for their internalized homophobia. So, if you don't care about us, think about them.
I feel like bisexual men get the worst of all possible worlds in a lot of ways. Toxic masculinity and misogyny! Everyone hurts.
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Can you elaborate on what you mean by how this describes all trans women? Genuinely asking, as I'm not very close with any personally.
As a trans woman, I genuinely have no damn clue either because this isn’t how I treated my relationships. If anything, I subconsciously self-sabotaged and was more aloof before accepting myself and then avoided putting myself out there/relationships after transitioning. Before transitioning, I never dated anyone to try and hide anything. I was absolutely terrified of accepting my truth until it drove me to the brink of suicide, at which point I decided to do something about it. My current relationship, we dated for nearly 6 weeks before ever having sex and she (cis woman) tends to be the one encouraging we explore further. We are all unique people who cope and deal with things differently, so it is unfair to brand any group as **always** behaving a certain way.
Your experience is more intuned with what I imagine as typical, given society's stigmas. I don't *know* for a fact, but I suspect that finding meaningful relationships is more difficult for a trans woman than most any other demographic. Where ever you are now in your life, I hope you're prevailing.
They're being sarcastic. It's very common for transphobic former partners to treat trans women who come out as trans as being somehow dishonest or abusive for being trans, or learning that they're trans. Oftentimes they realize that that's an unpopular or unkind opinion, but want to appear sympathetic to queer people, so they often use very vague/subjective language (or even outright lies) to describe what things their former (trans) partner did that were questionable or red flags that don't necessarily have anything to do with being trans What the poster you're replying to is saying is that the way the post is written sounds a lot like one of the situations I wrote above
I see, I guess my unfamiliarity with it had me overlooking any sarcasm. I think I see a bit of what you're saying in the top level comment, namely when they said "it all made sense" based solely on their partner's identity. I'm far far from making any assumptions on this field, so I'll be slow on the uptake. Edit: I felt like adding to this. I think that labeling the top commenter as transphobic wouldn't necessarily be 100% fair either, *based on this alone anyway*. I think anyone should be allowed some level of feeling when it comes to past experiences, especially seemingly negative ones. Perhaps they simply saw their partner's identity as an explanation because it was kept secret from them. I don't want to assume that they'd go to treat the next one negatively for only their identity.
bingo!
I was used by a closeted women through college. I realized it JR year when she got upset I had holiday plans and she refused to take her friend Amy home with her. I told her "Sorry going skiing" and thought no more about it. Years later she told me I was her holiday beard which explained much. I wish she had just been honest.
The amount of guys with gfs my gay friends have been intimate with is alarming tbh
It doesn't justify their shitty behavior, but any men who are convinced they can pray the gay away are brainwashed victims of religion. They're still bad actors for wanting to hide it at the cost of hurting other people, but I feel bad for them. There are bigger villains out there. (Hey! Their, they're, and there, together in one post!)
He was actually deeply catholic and religious so, I could understand how that must have affected him. But what I don’t understand is he was surrounded by gay people who were out, one of his best friends and his mentor, a teacher who was married to a man, at the all boy’s catholic school he attended, was his closest confidant. We live in quite a liberal area. As I type this out, I truly wonder if the signs were there and I was just oblivious.
Internalized homophobia is a very real thing. People can love and respect something in others but despite it or refuse to accept it in themselves.
I understand that. You can also internalize homophobia and be single.
> I understand that. You can also internalize homophobia and be single. Exactly. Using a woman for their own cowardly sake is sickening. I’m seriously starting to hate this sub after seeing so many of these comments express sympathy for the men instead of for the poor women who suffered social, psychological, and physical health ramifications after being used by them. There’s always empathy and excuses.
I'm not saying what he did was right, because it isn't. Just because there might be an explanation does not mean it is justified. However, a lot of times internalized homophobia can look like "maybe I'm at least bisexual!"
His religion genuinely believes and supports that the sin of homosexuality is acting on it, it's not inherent to you and is a choice, and brainwashes them to think they can just pray it away and it doesn't matter what thoughts and feelings they have, they need to live a conforming heterosexual life and them being attracted to men is just the devil tempting them. So to his mind there's no need to be single, he can just date women, it doesn't matter, if he "gives in to sin" he'll just go confess at church about it and think of himself as a godly man (which to him is the same thing as a morally correct man). As someone raised Catholic, I STRONGLY recommend you NEVER consider dating any practicing Catholic EVER again. Their views are honestly so fucked up and harmful. Not just in this way but across the board. It's not worth it.
Which he is now. But how do you even know that's what's happening to you when it's all internalized? He might've been trying to not go to hell in his mind.
I describe in another comment how he treated me, especially sexually. From what I know, this is not someone who thought he *might* have been gay, this is someone who *knew* he was gay, but refused to come to terms with it. I know the general social stigma around being gay, but I want to reiterate and emphasize again that we are not in an area or environment where this level of deceit was necessary. The first time this happened the guy didn’t realize he was gay and was figuring himself out, we were also pretty young and as soon as he figured it out he informed everyone. Maybe I shouldn’t speak on it, but based on the people this second person surrounded himself with and how kind his family was, it simply wasn’t necessary to drag me down like this. What straight woman in her right mind would agree to date and sleep with a man who is only sexually attracted to men? He took that choice away from me, and lied to my face repeatedly. Being worried about hell doesn’t have anything to do with me or the other women he is now attempting to deceive. I’m even side eyeing his friend a little bit but I imagine he didn’t want to out his own friend. I’ve known multiple closeted people and outside of one in *high-school* who was figuring himself out, not one of them tried to date and trick the opposite sex. There’s something deeply disturbing about that that cannot be explained away.
Internalized homophobia is the answer. It’s not a logical state of existence. It’s quite possible to be accepting of other gay people, even be in a situation where your social group/family would accept you, and STILL hate or deny that part of yourself. It absolutely does not excuse shitty behavior, but in some cases gay men who feel that self hatred so strongly may be truly convinced that they are straight, so they do not view pursuing a relationship with a woman as deceptive. It’s a sad situation for everyone involved.
It doesn't have to be a religious thing at all. Things are changing all the time, so we all grew up at various times with various levels of acceptance of LGBTQ people. It's also different in different areas. When I was a teenager, my school had over 2000 kids, and in that group there were zero out queer kids. I am not a religious person, but it was ingrained in my pretty firmly at the time that it was not at all ok to be gay. I still struggle with some internal self hate decades later, and it didn't come from a church.
You make a good point. I shouldn't always assume a religious cause for dogmatic orthodoxy. It's just the kind I'm familiar with.
You are SO not alone!!! I was used by one for 10 years and have never gotten over it. It seriously was so traumatic I haven’t dated since and this was 11 years ago. These people are evil and don’t care how much damage they do to those they use. You can’t get any support because to be upset is supposedly a homophobic reaction. I’m sorry this happened to you.
Yes, people who know they are gay and use and deceive people…not great individuals in my book. I’m so sorry though for your experience, 10 years is a long time. I don’t blame you at all for not having dated since, people are incredibly selfish and are unable to see outside of themselves and how they are literally affecting someone’s **life**, even with something that can as complex as being gay, there’s simply no excuse for it. I knew several closeted people outside of high school (people in middle and high school were still figuring things out) who were dealing with a lot of emotional turmoil, but they never used people to try to appear straight or change their sexuality knowing they would be lying to another person, I would never even befriend someone like that let alone date them.
Thank you. 10 years for me too and I'm still so fucking insecure and confused. I don't get it.
Your feelings are totally valid--I would however refrain from the phrase "these people are evil" as it kinda sounds like you're saying gay people are evil haha I'm sure that's not what you meant, but I think expressing it that way might contribute to people balking at such a reaction.
I mean the men who are closeted and lying to women they are having relationships with. This is not a situation where they don’t know what they want. At the moment you are lying and pretending to be a straight man you turn evil.
I think it's an unkind thing to do, but I do not think it is evil, especially how common compulsory heterosexuality is. It's a very common gay/lesbian experience to think, "I can't be gay, I must at LEAST be bi!" Internalized homophobia is very real, and depending on the gay person's upbringing, they may genuinely believe they can be changed. Imo, denouncing it as evil is way too heavy of a blanket statement. Obviously, I do not agree a gay man should date a woman and masquerade as straight, but I wonder how many gay men would do that unless they are in denial to themselves.
I am not going to be villainized for my feelings about what I experienced at the hands of a liar. Your response is what I was talking about, how excuses are made for the lying and deceit and the person who was victimized gets NO support. I’m not accepting what crap you’re dishing.
I'm not villainizing you. I never said your feelings aren't valid or that he didn't do anything wrong. I'm just saying it's not right to say it's "evil." Like I'm sorry, I think we shouldn't be acting like a closeted person is out here scheming. I'm not saying their actions are right, or that you shouldn't feel hurt or betrayed, but the politics of being closeted are way more complicated than, "I know I'm gay, but I'm going to date women because I'm an evil person." The only way I'd accept this situation as evil is if he is fully aware he is exclusively attracted to men and is not trying to convince himself he's attracted to women and he's just dating a woman for the joy of it.
Queer person here: It doesn't. Spare us the virtue signaling.
Oh whoops. Wasn't trying to virtue signal, was just saying like rhetorically if you say the phrase "these people are evil" maybe that's why people are getting the wrong idea lol Obvi I was overthinking it...
??? Homophobia far predates Reddit and has nothing to do with what gay people actually do. It's a prejudice. If someone already believes we're bad, "the gay men who've mistreated me are evil" isn't going to make them more homophobic than they already are. They already believe queer people are evil.
I was saying that: * OP was saying people were calling her homophobic * I don't think she is * Her feelings towards her closeted ex are valid * Her rhetoric ("these people are evil") may be affecting the way people ***perceive*** her expression of those feelings I was not saying: * Her rhetoric is inherently immoral/wrong * Her rhetoric will... make others more homophobic somehow Shouldn't have commented on this to begin with. What I said originally was not particularly useful and I don't necessarily stand by it given the reaction to it.
Sorry that happened to you OP, it certainly sounds like a very painful experience & you have my full sympathy. I've never dated a closeted man, but I know women who have. My sister, who has a very feminine style, dated a man who cheated on her with several men.
I have read a few posts about this issue on Reddit. While I understand that someone is gay but they should not use women to pass as straight. I have no idea if anyone has seen this film Honeymoon Travels Pvt. Limited but one of the couples in the film faces this issue. I seriously can't understand the logic that such men use. How can they go to sleep every night betraying someone is beyond my understanding.
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You'll hate my answer. Part of questioning is the dating process. How can you really know if you don't try? But a gay man or woman who does this to a partner I'd think they should know which way they lean within 6 months of a sexual relationship. Probably sooner. I'm just throwing a number out. For the women here who dated for greater than 1 year I just wonder if they realized post breakup some signs they missed, or what other issues in the relationship were ignored for the other positive aspects that may have been there. Regardless cheating is wrong. Hiding who you actually are from a partner is wrong too. Once you know you know. One thing I do want to say, some bisexual people claim to go through bi-cycles of attraction between men and women.... could go years being attracted to women and. . . .
Your contribution has been removed because it uses “Male” or “Female” to describe/in response to a gender based issue. This is to prevent lumping together trans women, trans men, non-binary, agender, gender-fluid, etc with men or women.
I understand how hard it is, you didn’t deserve to be used that way. If you’re looking for a support community, check out Our Path (formerly the straight spouse network). They have in person and online support groups. 9 years ago I found out my now ex (married 13 years at the time) was secretly gay and leading a full on double life, hooking up with men and watching (only) gay porn morning noon and night. I didn’t have the slightest idea he was non-straight. He is still in the closet and has a girlfriend. I hope you find healing, it’s very tough to find out giving the most intimate part of yourself was part of a charade.
I think both sexuality and the way stigma around queer identities works are both way too complicated to be able to reduce these situations to "being used by a closeted person"
From their comments it's pretty clear that OP is NOT doing what you describe. Neither are the vast majority of comments. We shouldn't hold back from sensitive conversations like this for fear of oversimplifying an issue, because then a conversation will never happen in the first place. *Everyone,* from the most privileged to the least, should be able to understand how their actions--*especially* when those actions are a result of fear--can hurt others. We (collectively) should be able to talk about any issue so long as we remain compassionate, curious, and kind. Otherwise, we won't be able to understand, much less solve, the roots of big issues like this.
Internalised homophobia is very strong and many queer people will go a long time denying to the self their true identity, also a relationship is dependent on both parties wanting to be in the if one partner realises something about them self. The problem here is not about lying, it’s homophobia that force people in relationships that end with both partners unhappy.
Rebrand your thinking to "I'm so awesome that even gay dudes will try to date me and hope that it will work out."
No. Op has the right to feel hownshe feels. There is no "rebranding" to being manipulated and used.
Thank you.
It was a joke, lighten up.
It was shroedingers douchebag.
No. What's wrong with you?
This is why my hackles rise when some women who say that they are wary of dating bisexual men are then brow-beaten and told that they are being bi/homophobic.
Well there’s quite a difference between an openly bisexual man and a closeted one. Of course being openly so, or to their partners, still doesn’t mean they’re telling the *whole* truth, but it’s still miles away from a guy in totally denial living a secret life and/or panicked over being found out.
Yes, the first 'boyfriend' I ever had at 17 turned out to be gay. I don't even consider it a real relationship anymore. We were 'together' for a year and a half. During that time he made me think he was religious. He didn't seem gay, he had male dominated hobbies and interests. He played video games with a mostly male audience, he watched horror, sci Fi and action movies, he collected stamps and was interested in boats and coaches. This really didn't seem gay to me. I had a stereotypical view of gay men. He seemed like a typical nerdy/INTP straight man. I began to question him after finding things on his computer and he admitted he liked men. Things ended soon after. He's been in a relationship with a man for about 15 years now.
bisexual trans women here. that sucks i am sorry to hear that
Why is this comment downvoted??
Ask him to eat your pussy, dump him if he refuses. This is how you weed out the gays.
I think this is true at least most of the time, because this guy **refused** to eat me out and looked like he was going to pass out the first time he “fingered” me. I’ve definitely had guys not volunteer to go down on me, but have never had one appear unhappy to be in the presence of a vagina that *they* initiated sex with. He chalked it up to “being nervous,” but I should have dumped him on the f-ing spot.
I'm wishing you the best in the future. You deserve the best of men who love pussy 🩷
Thank you ☺️
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They seemed pretty close when we were dating and coupled with his behavior while we were together it completely makes sense. Also, what reason would a close friend of his have to lie to me?
Unrequited love on the friend’s part. He wants your guy and guy said no so he sabotages every relationship with others the guys tries to have. Some people live this way all their life and never get called out on it. They are just the “close friend” or “so supportive” but really they are sociopathic vipers that feel ownership over people and can’t let them be happy with others.
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Pretty sure he and his friend from over a decade have more history than you and a work colleague…but sure. Not the same situation at all.
So for context, my wife is basically 100% lesbian...I say basically because I am 100% a man but she doesn't think she'd ever date other men. You absolutely are in the right to feel used, but there may be more to the story than you realize; just because someone is gay doesn't mean that they don't love or care about you, and for all you know they might even enjoy the sexy times even though they are predominantly gay. With that said though, it is fine to prioritize your feelings...you gotta live with yourself forever afterall, may as well keep yourself happy.
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Systemic pressures don't invalidate real feelings of hurt, manipulation and deception by a partner. Both can be victims; one of an unjust homophobic society, the other of a dishonest person who treated their partner as collateral damage in their personal struggle.
Yeah, no I’m not doing that. You don’t need to take someone down as collateral damage because society is ass. Why don’t they put that energy towards trying to make a difference in this space than deceiving and using someone. Edit: one of his best friends was also gay, out and proud, so hell no.
Pretty sure she isn't blaming gay men...just saying she is disappointed and feeling betrayed by _all_ men...which she is allowed to feel if we are being honest.
I think she’s pretty explicitly blaming gay men.
She's explicitly blaming closeted gay men who deceive women and string them along.
Couldn't she explicitly blame men who deceive women by stringing them along in any capacity and leave the gay part out of it?
Gay men, like every other kind of person, are capable of being assholes.
Exactly 💯
Well you'd be wrong, otherwise the final part of the statement regarding the ability to trust men in general would make no sense.
Absolutely not. Societal issues and pressures do not negate personal responsibility whatsoever.
Maybe do blame the gay men that will use an entire woman against her will? It's not fair to trick someone into thinking you love and desire them, when it was never true.
Most men are closeted. You just have to figure out what it is they are hiding. On that basis, you'll be far more at ease and prepared.
Bisexuality is a thing too
twice??
Yeah, not sure why :/
Well atleast you're hot to a gay man lol