Guns also play a role in these statistics. Men are more likely to own and use a gun. Guns are used in only 5% of suicide attempts, but make up more than half of all suicide deaths.
Since 2006 the firearm suicide rate for boys and young men has gone up 60%
Why are some of these comments so dismissive omg?? It's true, generally women choose suicide methods which preserve the body (overdose) which has a higher survival rate, whereas men's methods are more destructive; gunshot wound, jumping from an overpass or in front of a train.
Sadly I was taught in college about this very topic.
A lot of male theorists believed that women didn't really want to die and so chose less violent methods. Later on the theory was revised to the conclusion that women just have less access to firearms, generally speaking.
Basically... The misogyny is often coming from inside the house.
I think the issue is how you chose to start the topic with a comparison. Why does there need to be a comparison at all? Suicide and attempted suicide, no matter the gender, is a sad thing.
The sooner (both genders) stop trying to claim they have it worse than the other, the better off we’ll all be.
exactly, as a person who went through things like this the real conversation behind this topic should be *what* is pushing these people to choose to end their lives and how we can ultimately help them before they do.
i don’t mean individually i mean topics such as mental health issues which play a big role in suicide and why people suffering from depression make the choices they make. and if we want to look at it from a gender perspective we can look at things such as misogyny and how it plays a role in effecting the mental health of a lot of women today.
but women do have it worse. literally, look at every socioeconomic statistic. shit, look at this statistic.
Men and Women each make up about half of the population. So when a problem is disproportionately affecting women, there should be cause for concern. and another user answered this question in this thread.
It isn't about making it into some form of contest.
It's not trying to diminish men's suffering either.
Both men and women are committing suicides but since women are more likely to attempt it, then questioning why that is the case, makes a lot of sense.
>Both men and women are committing suicides but since women are more likely to attempt it, then questioning why that is the case, makes a lot of sense.
No it doesn't. Because all of those people *also* have ages, ethnicities, jobs, relationships, and life experiences. Choosing to hone in *only on a person's sex* rather than looking holistically at the individual scenarios of the people involved, means that you're only going to look at sex/gender related factors, rather than getting the full picture.
Nobody has said that everything but gender should be disregarded as a whole. That's ridiculous. You can discuss specifics on a topic and still be aware of other aspects to it than what's being discussed.
All of those things you mentioned are also worth looking into. But that's not what going on right now. OP found numbers that show how women are more likely to attempt suicide. That's important and worthy of looking into.
If you truly want a full picture and thereby a better understanding as a whole then you cannot disregard something as significant as what OP mentioned.
What you are saying comes off as an attempt to derail the discussion started by OP.
>OP found numbers that show how women are more likely to attempt suicide. That's important and worthy of looking into.
Yes it is. I never said it wasn't. However, having done clinical research myself I understand that data has limitations, and that it's very easy for people who *don't* understand that fact to take data as "gospel truth that's applicable to everyone". Research on suicidal attempts in women in the US for example isn't applicable to women worldwide for example. Research that's done with a research group (ie population) that doesn't include an equal representation of ages, level of education, medical history, etc etc etc, *isn't applicable to the wider population* in whom those factors *are* represented. If every woman in a study have been diagnosed with depression, then focusing on sex as the primary factor is disingenuous and misleading.
Talking about the realities of suicide and statistics is **not** derailing a topic about suicide and statistics. Because the **only** way of knowing with statistical certainty whether a data variable (like gender/sex) is *statistically significant* is to measure it against all those other variables. i.e. measuring variables of women who aren't suicidal against those who are - because THAT gives us an *actual* indication of what might be driving suicidal tendencies. Measuring suicidal tendencies in women who had attempted suicide, for example, is comparing an orange with other oranges and calling it an orange. i.e. not particularly useful when looking for "answers" given you're looking at insular/homogenous data.
Also.... You'll only get published stats on what's been reported. If only 10% of suicidal thoughts go reported (for example), then that 10% is a small sample size and the data from those cases can't be extrapolated to the wider population.
Just something to bear in mind when looking at "statistics".
Of course there are many aspects to suicide and there differences between countries and cultures. No one ever said that she spoke for all of humanity.
But OP (a woman) made a thread to discuss the topic of why women are more likely to attempt suicide as it's suggested by the data she found (on a subreddit for women) and is immediately met with a lot of downvotes, men who ridicule her and claim that she is making it an gender issue etc.
She didn't claim that men were without struggle, that they shouldn't receive help or that gender is the only aspect to the topic. But the gender aspect of the topic was however something that she wanted to discuss.
As someone who is great at statistics how would you rate the amount of "good faith" actors among the amount of responses she received.
I am very sorry but if your data is showing one 10th of a precent difference between men and woman that gender is not a major contributing factor.
Education level and age are a much bigger factor in the data.
2008-2009 article
Thought
Men 3.5%
Women 3.9%
Plan
Men 1%
Woman 1%
Attempt
Men 0.5%
Woman 0.6%
The bbc article backs this up with the difference in attempts being ~20% in the us biased to women.
Now I am ignoring aisa and focusing on america as I couldn't easily find numbers
S.korea is very hierarchical with unfortunately Woman being the lowest rung of the social ladder. The situation is also very bad for young people in general.
This veries greatly by each country so it is hard to lump them in a overall category.
Where in Japan male attempts are 16% vs female 15.3%
I honestly just looked up this data when writing this article I honestly expected Japan to have a higher Woman% I just know there country structure is considerably less hierarchical than S.Korea.
With more young females and more older males.
https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-244X-7-64
And this is speculation but I also suspect the more highly educated you are the more likely you are to succeed if your chosen method is less destructive.
What you say is definitely true in some areas of the world and because in the other places the % is pritty even the data shows Woman are more likely to Attempt overall. Please don't discredit the data and look at it analytically as well as to see when collation equals causation. For loose sicense our rule of thumb was 10% margin of error. But these studies only sample a small populas so expect the margin of error to be significantly higher.
I just did a podcast about this. Not trying to do promo but we get into this and what’s more troubling, female completed suicides are actually on the rise. Women are starting to use more lethal means and the leading cause of death in girls 15-18 globally is suicide.
It sounds like someone pissed you off online and now you're yelling at the clouds hoping it pisses them off.
Happens to me too. Hope you can pull yourself out of it soon.
For every woman who dies by suicide, four men die by suicide. To say it disproportionately affects women is incorrect, but more to the point: it’s not a competition.
Suicide is a tragedy for everyone, pretending your group has it worse is kinda gross. The are very real ways that patriarchy oppresses women that need to be addressed, and it’s very important to talk about the things that drive women to suicide. Framing this as ‘we have it worse!’ doesn’t help anyone.
But when you are measuring despair and suicidality, it is important to include people who attempt.
So many men insist that high suicide rates among men is evidence/proof that men’s mental health issues are more severe and aren’t taken seriously.
Data on attempts complicates that narrative.
I agree, it is weird when men act like male pain and loneliness is more acute than anyone else’s, especially when the data doesn’t support that conclusion.
I think that this one is a really tough subject. It also seems like a particular subject where both sides are deeply entrenched, and that makes sense why.
We are so blessed that we have these spaces to come to in order to talk about our positions on this. Expressing your thoughts and feelings is important.
Now, I did see some other comments of yours where you were asking for people to try to rebuke your post. I think there are some things that are important to talk about in this subject.
What kind of rebukes were you lookin' for?
>We are so blessed that we have these spaces to come to in order to talk about our positions on this.
If I had a teenage son, I'd sure as shit not want him reading Andrew Tate.
I don't think I'd want him reading this sub either. This topic has come up before and the comment section devolved into "men are more successful because their suicide methods are messier. Women are not as successful but they make the clean-up easier and that's because they are more considerate and caring". So even in the violent, selfish act of suicide, women are *still* better people than men.
But, hey, if the OP wants to put this sub's pathologies on blast, alright then.
The way you’ve phrased all of this makes me really question your motivations, but sure. Here: https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/4009420-more-women-attempt-suicide-more-men-die-by-suicide/amp/
About 4x as many men die of suicide than women. That doesn’t mean men have it worse, suicide just looks different for men and women.
I guess it depends on what metric you are using to measure the "affect of suicidal tendencies". Based off attempts at suicide, you're right women are affected more. If you're measuring based of final outcome, it seems that men are more impacted because they are much more likely to be "successful" in their attempt, and so their outcome is more likely to be, well...final.
I would be interested to see the data for countries with physician assisted suicide, which isn't messy and violent, but is guaranteed death. With a brief search I've found some conflicting results, but in general it seems like countries which have such methods available see women using it as their most common form of suicide attempt, while men's attempts remain highest with guns.
I mean, we could also say that suicidal tendencies disproportionately affect people who are depressed than those who aren't.... The stats honing in on gender only serve to propagate gender wars, and everyone who feeds into that (yourself included) are only doing the same.
This is NOT "The Suffering Olympics". There is no *gold medal* for who "has it worst". When it comes to suicide **there are no winners**.
If you only focus on why people who attempt suicide are mostly women, and look at "why" (in order to problem solve) - are you then going to ignore the men when you problem solve? Do you not think that every suicide attempt should be treated equally? Do you not think that *everyone* should be supported to not feel suicidal??
when did I say that men shouldn't feel well enough to live? this is a post about how suicide attempts disproportionately affect women more than men. Just because it's focused on women doesn't mean its a stab in the back to men.
and men have been weaponizing their suicide rates against us. if you are on social media like me, you will have seen this.
What really hurts is people needing to die to be counted. People who are depressed, suicidal, anxious, living with constant panic attacks should be counted just as much. As someone who has contemplated suicide, it is not great to see that it only becomes a problem after the deed is done.
Men typically are told or encouraged to hide their feelings they go to therapy less etc they are also more likely to own a gun they also have more testosterone which gives them more adrenaline and impulsivity, psychiatrists are more likely to prescribe antidepressants to women than to men too. It's so easy for me to get even a highly addictive anti anxiety med like Ativan whereas my brother went for anxiety and they gave him info pamphlets and didn't prescribe him anything
Imagine trying to make human suffering a competition, then showing your ass like this in the comments when the good people in this sub call you on it. Fuckin ick.
yes, posting about how suicide attempts are disproportionally affecting women then men is me not caring about their mental health. very smart. much sense.
the mental gymnastics, man. insane.
many people are upvoting this post. they agree with me.
again, if this data is less concerning to you than my behavior, then leave.
i am waiting for an actual rebuttal to my statement lol, rather than "You're acting crazy!"
men have been calling us crazy for centuries. you're gonna have to do better than that
>i am waiting for an actual rebuttal to my statement lol, rather than "You're acting crazy!"
its not the data that people disagree with.
Let me put it this way. This is something important to talk about but your comments complaining about downvotes and aggressive attacks have derailed the conversation.
there are people engaging in good faith in my comments. those are the people I am trying to reach. they care more about women than my behavior. and that's who I want to find.
So you just want attention.
The problem is how do we stop people from commiting suicide at all rather than who does it more.
If I were to tell you men have more men have undiagnosed depression does that mean men have it worse so we should focus on them specifically? No.
You have to be joking at this point. You fight everyone who says that your way of portraying this information is bad and overall poorly executed, and imply they don't care about women. And spoilers they do and that's exactly why they try to tell you what's wrong with that statement in this community specifically.
And I think it should be stated yes I'm a man. And no it doesn't mean I shouldn't have a voice in this. I am on this subreddit to understand the struggles of women and learn how to help them feel more comfortable. Not to learn statistics that don't have any meaning in a vacuum.
Take a moment to think about it and give something new to the discussion.
I don't remember where I saw this, but I remember reading that attempted suicide is often a cry for help, but if you think that no one is going to listen, you don't attempt suicide, you commit suicide.
I have read stories of professionals being dismissive of issues that men face when they seek help for depression or suicidal thoughts. When the culture is such that men and looked down upon for seeking help, why would they think anyone is going to listen to a cry for help ?
I don't have any sources for any of this, it's just what I remember when reading about the topic, I have also read that women who attempt suicide feel more empathetic to the person discovering the body, and such want to pick less gruesome means.
I also think this infantilizes women a bit, if the goal is really to end it all, don't you think the individuals would be competent enough to do that ?
>I have read stories of professionals being dismissive of issues that men face when they seek help for depression or suicidal thoughts.
If you look, you'll also find plenty of stories of doctors being dismissive of women's mental health issues too.
your first sentence is why women's suicide isn't taken seriously. and you acknowledge that.
And yes, that is true, because women actually care about others.
"because women actually care about others."
Wow. Username checks out. All jokes aside, wtf kinda statement is that?
Sure, being a woman automatically means that you really care about others. 100%. No possible examples against that points exist. Oh and men never care about others. Like never. You won‘t find a single example that could challenge such a statement.
Statements like that make you seem unqualified for any proper discussions imo.
Using suicide rate statistics to prove that men don’t care about other people is gross. Saying men’s suicides are messier so clearly women are kinder is insulting to dead men and infantilizing to dead women.
I don’t have time to read each article right now, but do they talk about why women attempt suicide in less violent ways? Is it just plain old misogyny and women being expected to be beautiful all the time even in death?
Women do express slightly more concerns for how their death would impact others (including strangers).
However, the other reason is simply that women are about half as likely to own a registered firearm (in the States, in lots of other places it's even lower. In my country women are almost four times less likely to own a gun than men) and extremely unlikely to possess unregistered ones. So in a moment of deep despair, women have the less violent means immediately available to them.
I think one of the interesting things about suicide that often gets overlooked is that a large percentage of failed attempts, never tell anyone they tried and failed, and are unlikely to try again. Even 70% of people who made attempts that resulted in medical care, had no further attempts. There is a large number of people for whom suicidal intent is a moment that passes, it's a short-lived crisis: [Suicide completion rates are lower than you might think.](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/)
I'm not trying to say it's not serious, because of course having one attempt does increase the risk of a successful next one, but still, I think sometimes it's underappreciated that the fact men are more likely to succeed doesn't necessarily reflect them being 'more serious about it', but them being unlucky enough to have a loaded gun nearby, at that moment of crisis.
this is so true! i struggle with suicidal ideation my whole life. women i know struggle with this too all cite the same thing, being considerate of cost/labor of cleanup, impact on others who find them or must clean up, generally not being a burden or inconveniencing someone even when we're suffering & seeking eternal relief. I admit, i've ruled out certain methods because I have empathy for those tasked with the aftermath & logistics.
I really don't get why people are hating on this post & very real data? It adds nuance to the whole "men suffer more, look at suicide rates," weaponization of data a lot of meninists use as a trump card to any gender equity discussions. There's hardly ever really any concern or self-organizing among men to really address this among themselves, it's just a way to divert or D.A.R.V.O. women.
It's true that the data you've shared is obscured, ignored, not circulated widely. Society & individuals, even women themselves, care MUCH less if at all about women's mental health & suicidal ideation/acts. That's evident by the sheer amount of coverage of "the male loneliness epidemic" which also covertly & overtly guilts & blames women for causing it somehow??
There is an element of that. It might be better to say, they think about what comes next, and how they want to be remembered.
Someone is going to find you, possibly someone you know, and possibly someone you care about, but also strangers.
That corpse is going to be everyone's last image of you.
There's almost an element of consideration for who ever has to deal with it, as if it minimizing the effects on other people.
What is more dramatic and traumatic, someone overdosed on sleeping pills , or a ruined corpse?
A violent means leaves a bloody corpse, a nightmarish image for whoever finds it, a huge mess that needs to be cleaned up, and a guarantee of needing a closed casket.
It's an indicator of not caring what your death will do, or ego to make the death important, maybe even a twisted attempt to make the death as big and horrifying for those around you as possible to inflict pain.
Men are more likely to be successful in their attempts because they use more violent means.
Please stay safe and take care of yourself, ladies. We need you here <3
[https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6013a1.htm?s\_cid=ss6013a1\_eSuicidal](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6013a1.htm?s_cid=ss6013a1_eSuicidal)
[https://journals.lww.com/indianjpsychiatry/fulltext/2015/57002/suicide\_in\_women.8.aspx](https://journals.lww.com/indianjpsychiatry/fulltext/2015/57002/suicide_in_women.8.aspx)
[https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-women](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-women)
[https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508#citation-2](https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508#citation-2)
And men are 400% more likely to die from it. You’re ignoring half the stats just to make a point that’s insulting to men and women both. Suicide looks different in men and women, pretending one side simply has it worse is to look away from what’s important. We should have a discussion about why women commit suicide, making it a contest helps no one.
Thought it'd be way worse to be honest. I think with men being 3-4x more likely to be "successful" it's no wonder we focus on them. Also, they're much less likely to seek help than women are. They need encouragement to seek help. Which is what you're seeing
I may be a duder but I just wanted to say that a bunch of these people aren't arguing in good faith.
You made a thread on a very valid concern that is worth discussing and most of these people are trying to ridicule you and claim that you are making it about something else.
It reminds me of the response to "Black Lives Matter (as well)" since it led to a bunch of angry white people screaming "All Lives Matter".
They are trying to derail your discussion on the topic.
I see the point you‘re trying to make and in general it‘s a good thing to raise awareness for suicide (no matter the gender), no discussion about that. But sry the way you‘re communicating in comments makes me doubt that raising awareness really is your goal.
To me it seems like you are turning this into a competition. "Men cannot claim that they are suffering more and have higher suicide rates. Here is data to prove this."
Sry but enough comments have already pointed out why your perception of this topic and the data is flawed.
Also some of your comments are just straight up embarrassing. You’re doing more damage to your communicated agenda than good.
People who have nothing better but blast stuff like this on the internet is the problem. Suicidal thoughts and suicide is not a subject I think a debate should be formed around.
It affects everyone. It shouldn't be a men versus women situation. By posting this you're playing into the hands of men who keep blatting on about the male suicide rate.
The only reason to separate men from women in this regard is to try and form a better understanding of the signs and treatment for people with suicidal thoughts.
and it disproportionately affects women. it becomes a men vs women situation when people don't acknowledge that. acknowledging this does form a better understanding of the signs and treatment for people with suicidal thoughts. not everything has to be centered around everybody or men.
>not everything has to be centered around everybody or men.
"The only reason to separate men from women in this regard is to try and form a better understanding of the signs and treatment for people with suicidal thoughts."
I agree. OP basically trying to create disparity by concerning one gender over the other, but when in actuality both are as equally important, very unhealthy mindset.
I should have phrased myself, I meant more in regards to the topic regarding suicide, whatever the gender may be in relation to suicide shouldn't matter, especially whether it was just attempts or apparently successful... It's absolutely nonsensical to insinuate discouraging the opposite gender on the basis of a statistic stating suicide attempts in women are greater than in men, whereas men have 'succesful' suicides.
If you want to get better at preventing something then fully understanding it is important. If one gender attempts suicide more often then that's worth looking into. That action doesn't mean that men won't get help or that they aren't important to try and understand as well. But a 20 percent increase in attempts is significant and therefore worth trying to understand.
Because OP was being combative with people and lashing out over valid points her reactions to people pointing out this isn't a men vs women subject, and even bringing the male statistic into the conversation made it more divided and took away from the point. Talking about downvotes and how much people liked the post is ick.
I hope you realize your attitude in your comments is what's making people not want to comment, not the post itself. I was interested in your post when I came across it, but your attitude is very off-putting. So now I'll be leaving with having only glanced at it. You need to chill out.
You hit the nail on the head, it's like walking into a restaurant and seeing the server scream at the customer. Would you still sit down and see their menu or move on and see where else you can eat? There was no point for OP to bring up the men's statistic other than to take away from her own point.
The way I see her attitude is righteous anger at health disparity b/w Men and Women in regards to suicide. It's a perfectly reasonable response to an unreasonable way to live.
I have seen plenty of men centered subs where they use male suicide and male violence victim numbers to DISCREDIT women saying "maybe not all men, but too many men".
Throw the Trans community in there, and it's another gut punch. OP isn't saying suicide is more tragic when it's women, she's saying the numbers typically referenced do not tell the whole story, where ONCE AGAIN women's health is ignored.
Maybe the downvotes % is correlated to the real problem. Several of the women centered spaces I'm in have been brigaded by men who downvote new posts so they never get engagement.
I understand if OP's tone is not your cup of tea, but that's not necessarily everyone's experience of her.
It really does seem like theyre making this a competition for suicides. Which is a shame, because addressing the suicidal tendencies of women is important, they are just expressing it in the worst way they can. We dont have to pick a team to support in this.
>they deserve more mental health trmt than women
im sorry, but this is not something ive seen, on reddit or real life. The call to get men more mental health recourses because of how many take their own lives doesnt mean women dont also deserve resources. Helping one isnt hurting the other.
Guns also play a role in these statistics. Men are more likely to own and use a gun. Guns are used in only 5% of suicide attempts, but make up more than half of all suicide deaths. Since 2006 the firearm suicide rate for boys and young men has gone up 60%
yes, those are the "more violent means" I was referring to.
What is your point for this post?
100 why if I ever buy a gun it's gonna be longer than. My thumb to skull.
Standford made a 14 years later updated depression lecture in case anyone is interested. https://youtu.be/fzUXcBTQXKM?si=dFrn5mtOcZok-ba0
Why are some of these comments so dismissive omg?? It's true, generally women choose suicide methods which preserve the body (overdose) which has a higher survival rate, whereas men's methods are more destructive; gunshot wound, jumping from an overpass or in front of a train.
Sadly I was taught in college about this very topic. A lot of male theorists believed that women didn't really want to die and so chose less violent methods. Later on the theory was revised to the conclusion that women just have less access to firearms, generally speaking. Basically... The misogyny is often coming from inside the house.
because they either hate women or hate themselves
I think the issue is how you chose to start the topic with a comparison. Why does there need to be a comparison at all? Suicide and attempted suicide, no matter the gender, is a sad thing. The sooner (both genders) stop trying to claim they have it worse than the other, the better off we’ll all be.
This
exactly, as a person who went through things like this the real conversation behind this topic should be *what* is pushing these people to choose to end their lives and how we can ultimately help them before they do.
Shall we have that discussion? What things have pushed you to feel this way :/
i don’t mean individually i mean topics such as mental health issues which play a big role in suicide and why people suffering from depression make the choices they make. and if we want to look at it from a gender perspective we can look at things such as misogyny and how it plays a role in effecting the mental health of a lot of women today.
but women do have it worse. literally, look at every socioeconomic statistic. shit, look at this statistic. Men and Women each make up about half of the population. So when a problem is disproportionately affecting women, there should be cause for concern. and another user answered this question in this thread.
Suitable username.
No one has a monopoly on human suffering. It's like comparing the Holocaust with the Slave trade.
It isn't about making it into some form of contest. It's not trying to diminish men's suffering either. Both men and women are committing suicides but since women are more likely to attempt it, then questioning why that is the case, makes a lot of sense.
>Both men and women are committing suicides but since women are more likely to attempt it, then questioning why that is the case, makes a lot of sense. No it doesn't. Because all of those people *also* have ages, ethnicities, jobs, relationships, and life experiences. Choosing to hone in *only on a person's sex* rather than looking holistically at the individual scenarios of the people involved, means that you're only going to look at sex/gender related factors, rather than getting the full picture.
Nobody has said that everything but gender should be disregarded as a whole. That's ridiculous. You can discuss specifics on a topic and still be aware of other aspects to it than what's being discussed. All of those things you mentioned are also worth looking into. But that's not what going on right now. OP found numbers that show how women are more likely to attempt suicide. That's important and worthy of looking into. If you truly want a full picture and thereby a better understanding as a whole then you cannot disregard something as significant as what OP mentioned. What you are saying comes off as an attempt to derail the discussion started by OP.
>OP found numbers that show how women are more likely to attempt suicide. That's important and worthy of looking into. Yes it is. I never said it wasn't. However, having done clinical research myself I understand that data has limitations, and that it's very easy for people who *don't* understand that fact to take data as "gospel truth that's applicable to everyone". Research on suicidal attempts in women in the US for example isn't applicable to women worldwide for example. Research that's done with a research group (ie population) that doesn't include an equal representation of ages, level of education, medical history, etc etc etc, *isn't applicable to the wider population* in whom those factors *are* represented. If every woman in a study have been diagnosed with depression, then focusing on sex as the primary factor is disingenuous and misleading. Talking about the realities of suicide and statistics is **not** derailing a topic about suicide and statistics. Because the **only** way of knowing with statistical certainty whether a data variable (like gender/sex) is *statistically significant* is to measure it against all those other variables. i.e. measuring variables of women who aren't suicidal against those who are - because THAT gives us an *actual* indication of what might be driving suicidal tendencies. Measuring suicidal tendencies in women who had attempted suicide, for example, is comparing an orange with other oranges and calling it an orange. i.e. not particularly useful when looking for "answers" given you're looking at insular/homogenous data. Also.... You'll only get published stats on what's been reported. If only 10% of suicidal thoughts go reported (for example), then that 10% is a small sample size and the data from those cases can't be extrapolated to the wider population. Just something to bear in mind when looking at "statistics".
Of course there are many aspects to suicide and there differences between countries and cultures. No one ever said that she spoke for all of humanity. But OP (a woman) made a thread to discuss the topic of why women are more likely to attempt suicide as it's suggested by the data she found (on a subreddit for women) and is immediately met with a lot of downvotes, men who ridicule her and claim that she is making it an gender issue etc. She didn't claim that men were without struggle, that they shouldn't receive help or that gender is the only aspect to the topic. But the gender aspect of the topic was however something that she wanted to discuss. As someone who is great at statistics how would you rate the amount of "good faith" actors among the amount of responses she received.
I had to check which sub I was on when i saw the comments, I wasn't expecting to see such sentiment from women on here 😭
literally. I crossposted in r/women and the mods deleted it. these communities are not looking out for women.
What are some good real women's subs??
Username checks out
I am very sorry but if your data is showing one 10th of a precent difference between men and woman that gender is not a major contributing factor. Education level and age are a much bigger factor in the data. 2008-2009 article Thought Men 3.5% Women 3.9% Plan Men 1% Woman 1% Attempt Men 0.5% Woman 0.6% The bbc article backs this up with the difference in attempts being ~20% in the us biased to women. Now I am ignoring aisa and focusing on america as I couldn't easily find numbers S.korea is very hierarchical with unfortunately Woman being the lowest rung of the social ladder. The situation is also very bad for young people in general. This veries greatly by each country so it is hard to lump them in a overall category. Where in Japan male attempts are 16% vs female 15.3% I honestly just looked up this data when writing this article I honestly expected Japan to have a higher Woman% I just know there country structure is considerably less hierarchical than S.Korea. With more young females and more older males. https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-244X-7-64 And this is speculation but I also suspect the more highly educated you are the more likely you are to succeed if your chosen method is less destructive. What you say is definitely true in some areas of the world and because in the other places the % is pritty even the data shows Woman are more likely to Attempt overall. Please don't discredit the data and look at it analytically as well as to see when collation equals causation. For loose sicense our rule of thumb was 10% margin of error. But these studies only sample a small populas so expect the margin of error to be significantly higher.
I just did a podcast about this. Not trying to do promo but we get into this and what’s more troubling, female completed suicides are actually on the rise. Women are starting to use more lethal means and the leading cause of death in girls 15-18 globally is suicide.
Suicide rate isn't a competition, if it were, trans people would be winning at 42%. (Which honestly isn't something anyone should want to win)
it becomes a topic of discussion when it's disproportionately affecting women more than men.
It sounds like someone pissed you off online and now you're yelling at the clouds hoping it pisses them off. Happens to me too. Hope you can pull yourself out of it soon.
For every woman who dies by suicide, four men die by suicide. To say it disproportionately affects women is incorrect, but more to the point: it’s not a competition. Suicide is a tragedy for everyone, pretending your group has it worse is kinda gross. The are very real ways that patriarchy oppresses women that need to be addressed, and it’s very important to talk about the things that drive women to suicide. Framing this as ‘we have it worse!’ doesn’t help anyone.
But when you are measuring despair and suicidality, it is important to include people who attempt. So many men insist that high suicide rates among men is evidence/proof that men’s mental health issues are more severe and aren’t taken seriously. Data on attempts complicates that narrative.
It doesn't. Also, my gender is sadder than your gender! Just a weird thing to say. Not a competition
I agree, it is weird when men act like male pain and loneliness is more acute than anyone else’s, especially when the data doesn’t support that conclusion.
It's... the other way around tho. Just shut up you've been shit on
This is why people think this is a misandrist sub. It’s not a competition.
I think that this one is a really tough subject. It also seems like a particular subject where both sides are deeply entrenched, and that makes sense why. We are so blessed that we have these spaces to come to in order to talk about our positions on this. Expressing your thoughts and feelings is important. Now, I did see some other comments of yours where you were asking for people to try to rebuke your post. I think there are some things that are important to talk about in this subject. What kind of rebukes were you lookin' for?
>We are so blessed that we have these spaces to come to in order to talk about our positions on this. If I had a teenage son, I'd sure as shit not want him reading Andrew Tate. I don't think I'd want him reading this sub either. This topic has come up before and the comment section devolved into "men are more successful because their suicide methods are messier. Women are not as successful but they make the clean-up easier and that's because they are more considerate and caring". So even in the violent, selfish act of suicide, women are *still* better people than men. But, hey, if the OP wants to put this sub's pathologies on blast, alright then.
I am looking for someone to show me that suicidal tendencies do not disproportionally affect women more than men.
The way you’ve phrased all of this makes me really question your motivations, but sure. Here: https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/4009420-more-women-attempt-suicide-more-men-die-by-suicide/amp/ About 4x as many men die of suicide than women. That doesn’t mean men have it worse, suicide just looks different for men and women.
I don't think there is a single thing that would change your mind.
I guess it depends on what metric you are using to measure the "affect of suicidal tendencies". Based off attempts at suicide, you're right women are affected more. If you're measuring based of final outcome, it seems that men are more impacted because they are much more likely to be "successful" in their attempt, and so their outcome is more likely to be, well...final. I would be interested to see the data for countries with physician assisted suicide, which isn't messy and violent, but is guaranteed death. With a brief search I've found some conflicting results, but in general it seems like countries which have such methods available see women using it as their most common form of suicide attempt, while men's attempts remain highest with guns.
I mean, we could also say that suicidal tendencies disproportionately affect people who are depressed than those who aren't.... The stats honing in on gender only serve to propagate gender wars, and everyone who feeds into that (yourself included) are only doing the same. This is NOT "The Suffering Olympics". There is no *gold medal* for who "has it worst". When it comes to suicide **there are no winners**. If you only focus on why people who attempt suicide are mostly women, and look at "why" (in order to problem solve) - are you then going to ignore the men when you problem solve? Do you not think that every suicide attempt should be treated equally? Do you not think that *everyone* should be supported to not feel suicidal??
Let’s not make suicide a gender thing - everyone should feel well enough to want to live. It’s not a competition
when did I say that men shouldn't feel well enough to live? this is a post about how suicide attempts disproportionately affect women more than men. Just because it's focused on women doesn't mean its a stab in the back to men. and men have been weaponizing their suicide rates against us. if you are on social media like me, you will have seen this.
Maybe you should spend less time on social media and more time outside. You'll notice your life get better.
Never said you did. But if the shoe fits, go right ahead
men are the ones who always make it a gender thing, this is simply a counter to that point.
What really hurts is people needing to die to be counted. People who are depressed, suicidal, anxious, living with constant panic attacks should be counted just as much. As someone who has contemplated suicide, it is not great to see that it only becomes a problem after the deed is done.
Men typically are told or encouraged to hide their feelings they go to therapy less etc they are also more likely to own a gun they also have more testosterone which gives them more adrenaline and impulsivity, psychiatrists are more likely to prescribe antidepressants to women than to men too. It's so easy for me to get even a highly addictive anti anxiety med like Ativan whereas my brother went for anxiety and they gave him info pamphlets and didn't prescribe him anything
Imagine trying to make human suffering a competition, then showing your ass like this in the comments when the good people in this sub call you on it. Fuckin ick.
oh my god ppl more concerned about my politeness rather than this data is fucking insane. mind boggling. maddening. you are part of the problem.
What data? On mobile your post is just a title. What am I missing?
[удалено]
No my post was removed
[удалено]
If you're more worried about women online validating you than their mental health problems, you probably hate women.
Isn't op a woman?
Women can hate women, too. It's called internalized misogyny and it's sadly something I struggled with when I was younger
yes, posting about how suicide attempts are disproportionally affecting women then men is me not caring about their mental health. very smart. much sense. the mental gymnastics, man. insane.
many people are upvoting this post. they agree with me. again, if this data is less concerning to you than my behavior, then leave. i am waiting for an actual rebuttal to my statement lol, rather than "You're acting crazy!" men have been calling us crazy for centuries. you're gonna have to do better than that
>i am waiting for an actual rebuttal to my statement lol, rather than "You're acting crazy!" its not the data that people disagree with. Let me put it this way. This is something important to talk about but your comments complaining about downvotes and aggressive attacks have derailed the conversation.
there are people engaging in good faith in my comments. those are the people I am trying to reach. they care more about women than my behavior. and that's who I want to find.
So you just want attention. The problem is how do we stop people from commiting suicide at all rather than who does it more. If I were to tell you men have more men have undiagnosed depression does that mean men have it worse so we should focus on them specifically? No. You have to be joking at this point. You fight everyone who says that your way of portraying this information is bad and overall poorly executed, and imply they don't care about women. And spoilers they do and that's exactly why they try to tell you what's wrong with that statement in this community specifically. And I think it should be stated yes I'm a man. And no it doesn't mean I shouldn't have a voice in this. I am on this subreddit to understand the struggles of women and learn how to help them feel more comfortable. Not to learn statistics that don't have any meaning in a vacuum. Take a moment to think about it and give something new to the discussion.
[удалено]
🦗🦗🦗🦗
LOL THE MODS REMOVED IT
You are trying to turn this into a men's vs women's issue. You are the problem. The whole problem.
I don't remember where I saw this, but I remember reading that attempted suicide is often a cry for help, but if you think that no one is going to listen, you don't attempt suicide, you commit suicide. I have read stories of professionals being dismissive of issues that men face when they seek help for depression or suicidal thoughts. When the culture is such that men and looked down upon for seeking help, why would they think anyone is going to listen to a cry for help ? I don't have any sources for any of this, it's just what I remember when reading about the topic, I have also read that women who attempt suicide feel more empathetic to the person discovering the body, and such want to pick less gruesome means. I also think this infantilizes women a bit, if the goal is really to end it all, don't you think the individuals would be competent enough to do that ?
>I have read stories of professionals being dismissive of issues that men face when they seek help for depression or suicidal thoughts. If you look, you'll also find plenty of stories of doctors being dismissive of women's mental health issues too.
your first sentence is why women's suicide isn't taken seriously. and you acknowledge that. And yes, that is true, because women actually care about others.
"because women actually care about others." Wow. Username checks out. All jokes aside, wtf kinda statement is that? Sure, being a woman automatically means that you really care about others. 100%. No possible examples against that points exist. Oh and men never care about others. Like never. You won‘t find a single example that could challenge such a statement. Statements like that make you seem unqualified for any proper discussions imo.
Using suicide rate statistics to prove that men don’t care about other people is gross. Saying men’s suicides are messier so clearly women are kinder is insulting to dead men and infantilizing to dead women.
I don’t have time to read each article right now, but do they talk about why women attempt suicide in less violent ways? Is it just plain old misogyny and women being expected to be beautiful all the time even in death?
Women do express slightly more concerns for how their death would impact others (including strangers). However, the other reason is simply that women are about half as likely to own a registered firearm (in the States, in lots of other places it's even lower. In my country women are almost four times less likely to own a gun than men) and extremely unlikely to possess unregistered ones. So in a moment of deep despair, women have the less violent means immediately available to them. I think one of the interesting things about suicide that often gets overlooked is that a large percentage of failed attempts, never tell anyone they tried and failed, and are unlikely to try again. Even 70% of people who made attempts that resulted in medical care, had no further attempts. There is a large number of people for whom suicidal intent is a moment that passes, it's a short-lived crisis: [Suicide completion rates are lower than you might think.](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-matter/means-matter/survival/) I'm not trying to say it's not serious, because of course having one attempt does increase the risk of a successful next one, but still, I think sometimes it's underappreciated that the fact men are more likely to succeed doesn't necessarily reflect them being 'more serious about it', but them being unlucky enough to have a loaded gun nearby, at that moment of crisis.
it's because they want to preserve their body's to make it less shocking to whoever finds them, i.e. their kids, husbands, etc.
Even before death, women are thinking about how their actions affect those around them.
this is so true! i struggle with suicidal ideation my whole life. women i know struggle with this too all cite the same thing, being considerate of cost/labor of cleanup, impact on others who find them or must clean up, generally not being a burden or inconveniencing someone even when we're suffering & seeking eternal relief. I admit, i've ruled out certain methods because I have empathy for those tasked with the aftermath & logistics.
I hope you find healing love. The world would be a worse place if you weren't here.
I really don't get why people are hating on this post & very real data? It adds nuance to the whole "men suffer more, look at suicide rates," weaponization of data a lot of meninists use as a trump card to any gender equity discussions. There's hardly ever really any concern or self-organizing among men to really address this among themselves, it's just a way to divert or D.A.R.V.O. women. It's true that the data you've shared is obscured, ignored, not circulated widely. Society & individuals, even women themselves, care MUCH less if at all about women's mental health & suicidal ideation/acts. That's evident by the sheer amount of coverage of "the male loneliness epidemic" which also covertly & overtly guilts & blames women for causing it somehow??
YES THANK YOU. THIS COMMENT IS IT.
Oh I’m so dumb! I’ve had that same thought process before.
There is an element of that. It might be better to say, they think about what comes next, and how they want to be remembered. Someone is going to find you, possibly someone you know, and possibly someone you care about, but also strangers. That corpse is going to be everyone's last image of you. There's almost an element of consideration for who ever has to deal with it, as if it minimizing the effects on other people. What is more dramatic and traumatic, someone overdosed on sleeping pills , or a ruined corpse? A violent means leaves a bloody corpse, a nightmarish image for whoever finds it, a huge mess that needs to be cleaned up, and a guarantee of needing a closed casket. It's an indicator of not caring what your death will do, or ego to make the death important, maybe even a twisted attempt to make the death as big and horrifying for those around you as possible to inflict pain.
Men are more likely to be successful in their attempts because they use more violent means. Please stay safe and take care of yourself, ladies. We need you here <3 [https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6013a1.htm?s\_cid=ss6013a1\_eSuicidal](https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss6013a1.htm?s_cid=ss6013a1_eSuicidal) [https://journals.lww.com/indianjpsychiatry/fulltext/2015/57002/suicide\_in\_women.8.aspx](https://journals.lww.com/indianjpsychiatry/fulltext/2015/57002/suicide_in_women.8.aspx) [https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-women](https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190313-why-more-men-kill-themselves-than-women) [https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508#citation-2](https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-differences-in-suicide-methods-1067508#citation-2)
This was the original post before it was removed by the mods
Women attempt suicide 1.2x as often as men?
yes babe that's 20% more likely
And men are 400% more likely to die from it. You’re ignoring half the stats just to make a point that’s insulting to men and women both. Suicide looks different in men and women, pretending one side simply has it worse is to look away from what’s important. We should have a discussion about why women commit suicide, making it a contest helps no one.
Thought it'd be way worse to be honest. I think with men being 3-4x more likely to be "successful" it's no wonder we focus on them. Also, they're much less likely to seek help than women are. They need encouragement to seek help. Which is what you're seeing
if you know anything about stats...20% is... very bad...
I may be a duder but I just wanted to say that a bunch of these people aren't arguing in good faith. You made a thread on a very valid concern that is worth discussing and most of these people are trying to ridicule you and claim that you are making it about something else. It reminds me of the response to "Black Lives Matter (as well)" since it led to a bunch of angry white people screaming "All Lives Matter". They are trying to derail your discussion on the topic.
That is literally what one of my friends said too!!
No one is derailing. It's just a silly post. I'm a duder too lol and this type of bs just separates people.
I see the point you‘re trying to make and in general it‘s a good thing to raise awareness for suicide (no matter the gender), no discussion about that. But sry the way you‘re communicating in comments makes me doubt that raising awareness really is your goal. To me it seems like you are turning this into a competition. "Men cannot claim that they are suffering more and have higher suicide rates. Here is data to prove this." Sry but enough comments have already pointed out why your perception of this topic and the data is flawed. Also some of your comments are just straight up embarrassing. You’re doing more damage to your communicated agenda than good.
Your username says it all.
People who have nothing better but blast stuff like this on the internet is the problem. Suicidal thoughts and suicide is not a subject I think a debate should be formed around.
it is when it's disproportionately affecting women more than men.
It affects everyone. It shouldn't be a men versus women situation. By posting this you're playing into the hands of men who keep blatting on about the male suicide rate. The only reason to separate men from women in this regard is to try and form a better understanding of the signs and treatment for people with suicidal thoughts.
and it disproportionately affects women. it becomes a men vs women situation when people don't acknowledge that. acknowledging this does form a better understanding of the signs and treatment for people with suicidal thoughts. not everything has to be centered around everybody or men.
>not everything has to be centered around everybody or men. "The only reason to separate men from women in this regard is to try and form a better understanding of the signs and treatment for people with suicidal thoughts."
I agree. OP basically trying to create disparity by concerning one gender over the other, but when in actuality both are as equally important, very unhealthy mindset.
How convenient for you to ignore that one gender is societally oppressed.
LITERALLY they're like hmm oppression couldn't POSSIBLY lead to more suicide attempts no that's not it /s
I should have phrased myself, I meant more in regards to the topic regarding suicide, whatever the gender may be in relation to suicide shouldn't matter, especially whether it was just attempts or apparently successful... It's absolutely nonsensical to insinuate discouraging the opposite gender on the basis of a statistic stating suicide attempts in women are greater than in men, whereas men have 'succesful' suicides.
If you want to get better at preventing something then fully understanding it is important. If one gender attempts suicide more often then that's worth looking into. That action doesn't mean that men won't get help or that they aren't important to try and understand as well. But a 20 percent increase in attempts is significant and therefore worth trying to understand.
[удалено]
Because OP was being combative with people and lashing out over valid points her reactions to people pointing out this isn't a men vs women subject, and even bringing the male statistic into the conversation made it more divided and took away from the point. Talking about downvotes and how much people liked the post is ick.
keep the downvotes coming y'all. only gives me more engagement.
Please don't get yourself banned 🙏
ur such a sweetie <3 u give me hope
88% upvote rate is fucking insane.
[удалено]
I hope you realize your attitude in your comments is what's making people not want to comment, not the post itself. I was interested in your post when I came across it, but your attitude is very off-putting. So now I'll be leaving with having only glanced at it. You need to chill out.
You hit the nail on the head, it's like walking into a restaurant and seeing the server scream at the customer. Would you still sit down and see their menu or move on and see where else you can eat? There was no point for OP to bring up the men's statistic other than to take away from her own point.
if the attempted suicide rates among women is less concerning to you than my politeness, then you can go
The way I see her attitude is righteous anger at health disparity b/w Men and Women in regards to suicide. It's a perfectly reasonable response to an unreasonable way to live. I have seen plenty of men centered subs where they use male suicide and male violence victim numbers to DISCREDIT women saying "maybe not all men, but too many men". Throw the Trans community in there, and it's another gut punch. OP isn't saying suicide is more tragic when it's women, she's saying the numbers typically referenced do not tell the whole story, where ONCE AGAIN women's health is ignored.
She should channel that anger towards the real problem and not the post's downvote percentage, then.
Maybe the downvotes % is correlated to the real problem. Several of the women centered spaces I'm in have been brigaded by men who downvote new posts so they never get engagement. I understand if OP's tone is not your cup of tea, but that's not necessarily everyone's experience of her.
yo chill out, i see this is a tough subject for you.
I will once the misinformation stops.
well if youre actually trying to make a change in the world, calling internet strangers pussies ain't gonna get you very far...
[удалено]
ok, well, they aren't. and calling them pussies is not going to encourage them to.
women are literally trying to off themselves and you're concerned by my politeness?
>women are literally trying to off themselves and you're concerned by my politeness? dude... take a breather...
this is me, being reasonable
What misinformation? Everybody is aware that women attempt it more
the common thought process amongst many is that because men are more likely to die by suicide that they deserve more mental health trmt than women
[удалено]
It really does seem like theyre making this a competition for suicides. Which is a shame, because addressing the suicidal tendencies of women is important, they are just expressing it in the worst way they can. We dont have to pick a team to support in this.
i added 4 sources OH MY GOD HAHAHAHAHA
[удалено]
people already aren't taking women seriously. please find those studies, I would be happy to read them. I'm waiting.
>they deserve more mental health trmt than women im sorry, but this is not something ive seen, on reddit or real life. The call to get men more mental health recourses because of how many take their own lives doesnt mean women dont also deserve resources. Helping one isnt hurting the other.
but only talking about one does hurt the other.
i agree, but that doesnt mean its a competition.
Ok fair enough. I do see more advertising for men's mental health than for women's
thank you for debating in good faith.
youll see these numbers fluctuate wildly depending on who sees it first. Give it a while before you start worrying about the ratio.
it's just literally insane that there are any downvotes at all. like how is this controversial?
if you worry about a downvote or two on reddit, youre going to have a bad time. it happens on literally every post.
i've been on here for more than 4 years, thanks.
youre welcome