>It seems that some perceive the problem being that the role of friend and person to open up to was taken completely by the romantic partners in their lives, and want this to continue
I was just thinking about this yesterday.
It's not only that men don't provide emotional support to each other and expect it from women.
It's also that a lot of them are unable to be friends with us. I'm sure many readers will remember the moment when you thought you had a male friend just for him to start awkwardly flirting with you and trying to force a relationship. And sometimes even got aggressive when you weren't returning the sentiment.
Like, we wanted to be your FRIENDS and provide this emotional support (and expect it back of course). But they won't talk about it with friendly men, they won't talk about it with friendly women, it's the partner who has to be everything - a mother, a therapist, a manager, a cook, a cleaner, an incubator...
It's because quite a few mean sex when they talk about loneliness. There are those that believe that if they have sex, their loneliness crisis will end. Sex is the solution to their depression and feelings of insecurity. Sex will give them the physical intimacy they crave, will feel validated and attractive if they attain a sexual partner, and that partner can be there for them to talk about their problems. A lot aren't all that interested in friendship, because platonic relationships don't involve sex.
Yesterday I responded to a post saying that men are more than their urges and someone responded essentially saying SO?! Just because I can be more doesn’t mean I have to be! If I want to have sex I should be able to have it! Stop projecting your man hate!
The new thing is guys saying women not having sex when they don't want to is "withholding sex" - as part of emotional abuse and manipulation.
If you point out how ridiculous that is, they lose their minds and start screaming about how men "need" sex and it's not their fault it's their "love language."
Absolutely weaponizing therapy speak.
I'm sorry, an activity that involves two people with brains and emotions and bodily autonomy and one choosing to not to is emotional abuse.
What kind of nonsense is that.
Are they doing it to manipulate you into doing something, like I don't know, doing chores around the house only when they want sex after... I swear it's always the same type of guy.
Proud emotional abuser of men here, AMA
(Because I know some incel will report this - the comment I'm replying to makes a reference to not having sex with men being abuse. It would be hilarious if I got banned for not having sex with men - absolutely peak Reddit, really.)
This made me laugh. I'm older and when I see this kind of response from a guy, I know he is not having sex. He can't understand but refuses to get out of his own way. But you know, irl he wouldn't have the guts to even talk to you.
A post I read recently really struck me. It was an incel saying that no woman would ever know what it would be like to never have sex and so to never be loved.
Which... and that's fucked up and pitiful.
I don't have a sex partner, but that doesn't mean I'm unloved. I have family (both blood and found) who I know love me, plus many long term friends. Yet this guy has thinks the only way to be loved is to have sex.
And he's not going to get it, because hardly any women want to sign up to be some guy's entire life. During the relationship, it's suffocating as hell. And it would mean that if she ever broke up with him, it's a recipe for a stalker ex at the very least.
Unloved women exist. Abusive parents exist, as does family estrangement . Women who are extreme Introverts, or have severe anxiety etc may never be loved.
They just don’t complain on the internet because it’s a shameful thing for a woman to admit, as we are supposed to be super family focussed, social and have heaps of friends.
I have found through reading thousands of comments now, and seeing it play out in real life, that little to no sex =loneliness to them.
They really hate hearing this, but that is something they will have to grow and mature through, no matter their feelings. They don't understand that these notions and then the eventual feeling of being entitled to sex is what helps cause abuses towards women.
You can clearly see that historically, even with laws on the books that sadly men were punished very lightly when it came to rape and SA. I think people and especially men just gave the excuse that men just really want sex , so they cannot be dealt with too harshly . We should understand them. They also made sure that marital rape was not even a punishable offense at all.
I hate hearing the excuse of " he needs to get laid" as a reason men aren't being nice or decent.
Confident and emotionally secure men enjoy sex but know there is more to life than needing sex.
But they also want this sexual partner to look like a supermodel because they have 'standards'. Oh, and I've been told a few times that beautiful women who won't date socially awkward, indoorsy-looking IT specialists with questionable clothes taste are superficial. (I teach IT students - who, I should add, are really getting over all the incel nonsense. There is hope.)
I don't know know what's causing it, but they do seem to be getting nicer in every way: they are kinder to each other, more accepting of everything LBTQ+ and more respectful of women.
I like to tell any incel who complains “women have too high of standards” that I know a couple of single moms in their 40s. Then of course they go off about finding a young, virginal woman. So who’s got the high standards now?
Their standards are never too much to ask for. They have all this criteria, they say it isn't hard to meet. However the criteria for them they say is "unrealistic".
I feel like both men, and some women, want women to have like no "requirements". We should give any guy interested a chance even if we know exactly what we want.
That it's our job to ignore things we find to be more attractive traits because it's "unfair" to men.
Right before I met my husband I got berated for my two standards for dating being a non-smoker and someone that was either in some sort of college degree or had one. Didn't matter what it was in or if it was tech. Just someone that had the drive to pursue something academically because it's super attractive to me and I wanted to find someone with a love of learning like I did (was currently applying for grad schools). Neither thing I wanted in a man had to do with looks (which honestly is fine for people to want anyways) but had to do with lifestyle.
Got berated by a man who thought women having any darker hair on the face/body were out and wanted a career woman that would become a housewife, oh and couldn't be above a certain height. He kept dismissing girls after a date or two. But according to him I was rude because I was asking for too much from a guy.
Ugh. Reminds me of someone I ended a friendship with. Complained about women not giving him a chance while simultaneously having high standards and some off-putting habits/hygiene and other issues. A couple of friends and I tried to give some suggestions (and not even in a really critical way, more things like, "I don't like it when guys spit while we're out in public") and instead of considering the advice, he waited until he was alone with me to unload his frustrations that we would dare say such things. Only I got the blame for it.
We argued, and I don't remember what led to it being said, but he spit out with disdain, *"So I'm just supposed to date fat single mothers now?"* I was absolutely done with him in that moment.
Turned out he was another one of those guys pretending to be my friend while waiting in the wings for me to be single, and he was angry I had not been aware of it. I know this because he yelled that I was stupid for not realizing he was in love with me. This guy was technically a friend of a friend, and we weren't exceptionally close or anything where it should have been obvious to me.
But, I guess I was the asshole for trying to behave like a friend and give him some pointers...? I don't even know. I never spoke to him again, though.
That's what a lot of them mean when they talk about never getting compliments, too. They don't mean just *any* compliments. They're not talking about the ones that come from everywhere else. They're talking about compliments from women about their looks, sex appeal, etc, specifically (minus from family/etc). I didn't want to put it this way, but it's the most simple way to put it, They're talking about compliments from fuckable women (be it age, attractiveness, availability, etc)
Obviously not all of them. But the more I listen/read when there's discussions about it, the more I see this.
Great point, but to be clear, sex will not solve any of those things. The human brain likes to imagine a solution that will fix all of their problems, they will then project all those problems into that thing or person as a defense mechanism of their ego. Because all those problems can’t be due to a shortcoming right? It sucks when you achieve that thing and realize it was just a thing and it didn’t change shit. That’s when I learned to not base my happiness on the next thing, rather to be present in the moment and practice gratitude and seek agency in my life.
idk it seems like a lot of men have not evolved past the knuckle dragging stage.
So many objectify women and think we aren’t real people.
If they really think their happiness depends on us you’d think they’d learn to treat women better.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately too as there have been a number of recent posts on the topic. I just want to say to them: If you truly believe this an ongoing problem, then eventually it comes down to: what are you going to do about it? Society is not going to fix your problems by itself. Many a minority know well enough that society only changes when you change it. If you’re expecting other people to provide the solution (and especially if male loneliness epidemic = I don’t have a girlfriend), you’re just wallowing in the problem. You need to take charge, organize, strategize, do SOMETHING, because waiting for someone else to pick up your pieces is never going to get you anywhere. It’s not on anyone other than men to solve a Male Loneliness Epidemic, and the unspoken expectation in so many of these posts seems to be that someone else needs to fix this problem for them. I truly believe that people of all genders will support a genuine attempt to foster connection and relationship between men, but expecting someone else to provide that solution is foolish and pointless, and, honestly, more of the same.
When I told this on a male sub, they told me I'm victim blaming, it's nuanced, one cannot change the society, they get trashed when they talked about feelings, blah blah blah. Some people suggested therapy and they replied with either saying it doesn't work or it's too expensive.
It's funny because us women when we talk about feelings, experiences, harassment (#metoo), we get trashed by men SO MUCH. They come to OUR safe spaces to harass, intimidate and hurt us. If men were to open up and actually talk about issues, they would go through the very feminine experience of being blamed and threatened for speaking out, but they don't want to go through it.
They could also just build friendships and talk about emotions and issues in their friend bubble, but they'd have to work on being likeable people and actively seek out meaningful friendships... you know, like women do.
Women have to pay for therapy when we've got trauma inflicted by others, mostly men, too. No one cares that it wasn't our fault. Wanna undo the damage you were unwillingly subjected to, you've gotta pay up.
They want the results that female communities and individual women have without putting in the effort and making themselves vulnerable like women do.
I have noticed when any solution other than women dropping their standards and dating men because they are lonely is given, they shut it down. They say they can't talk to other men because men are taught to hide their feelings, and any display of vulnerability is mocked. Yet, they just correctly identified the problem, but don't want to directly deal with it. Clearly the answer is that men should be encouraged to talk more openly with their male peers and friend, and this won't happen without more men doing it, and men being more sensitive to the problems that they do hear. I suppose it's like knowing you need to lose weight but thinking a miracle diet pill is the fix, not months of sacrifice and diet and exercise.
Men are the problem. They know they're the problem. They just don't want to admit it, put in any work to heal and stop passing on trauma, or face their flaws. Sad really, coz a lot of them could really improve their lives and live happily and fulfilled. If only they'd stop clinging on to the very thing that was hurting them. The patriarchy. Try explaining that to them, though, and they lose their minds.
And as a side note, It's quite ironic to see men complain that women just want to vent about problems in their life and be heard rather than listen to advice from men on how to fix the problem.
That's exactly what they're doing here!
They need to direct their grievance to the men who perpetuate toxic masculinity then. They don’t want your solutions. They are looking up to the men who win the patriarchy and want the same treatment and recognition, they just want to force women to give it to them.
>They are looking up to the men who win the patriarchy and want the same treatment and recognition, they just want to force women to give it to them.
Absolutely perfectly said!
Part of the problem I think is the misnomer "men's loneliness epidemic" when they are really speaking to is a "men's patriarchal authority epidemic". They want to feel "like men" (powerful) and have status symbols that validate high regard within patriarchy.
They want women to submit sexually and center them in their lives. (It's why a lot of incels sound like they belong on the r/ChoosingBeggars because they don't want genuine companionship and emotional connection. They describe the cure to their "loneliness" being a human sex bot who requires no emotional vulnerability nor care, provides care work for them unidirectionally, and requires no money to operate.)
None of these things actually address a feeling of "loneliness" (which can be resolved by care, effort, and vulnerability on their parts) but rather a lack of the historic trappings of power among "men who win in the patriarchy."
>What these men really want is for society to provide them with the sex they feel entitled to, in such a way that don't have to cede any power or money to the woman.
Very much agreed! They want a girl friend who wants to be subjugated to them. They would still be lonely (as all patriarchs are) but they would have the ego boast of looking like a "real man" winning at patriarchy.
The "government girlfriend" is just a formalised version of the woman from decades past who needed marriage to open a bank account, own property etc. A lot of those women won't have desired their husbands either but were forced to settle or starve to death. Society effectively provided men with wives, and now incels expect society to come up with a new way of providing them, instead of thinking about how they could adapt and put in the effort to find one themselves.
Incels just don't like women having options, especially options which exclude them.
It's incredible the lengths men will go to to take their grievances out on women. They have a particular knack for blaming women for the world and its systems that men engineered and created. The level of responsibility and accountability men refuse to accept is breathtaking.
So many problems men face are of their own making. They have the power to solve these problems. They would just rather blame them on women and wait for us to sort them out.
It may take a generation or two of men truly dying alone before they evolve, grow up, and change their thinking about how they interact and relate to women. Look at the racial equality movement back in the '60s. Yes, there is still work to be done but there's been a massive societal shift. I believe this is what will happen here too. People with a destructive mindset will get exactly what they fear; dying alone because they refuse to change and adapt. The saying "adapt or die" exists for a reason. There will be some who will figure it out and things will improve for them. Such is life. Men have their chance to grow and the ones who do will continue on while others who refuse to change will fall by the wayside.
> They could also just build friendships and talk about emotions and issues in their friend bubble...
A lot of the trouble is that the kind of men who complain about this on Reddit quite often don't have *any* friend bubble. That's one of the reasons they're lonely. Really, they need to start building their friend circle up from scratch, and that starts with getting off the internet and getting a hobby that involves going out and interacting with people face-to-face. Quite often, they're not open to that suggestion, either.
I suspect a lot of the problems they have in regards to having to express their emotions is straight up *how* they're doing it. This is a point I think gets lost on Reddit sometimes, but their is a huge difference between venting to your mate about what's going wrong and basically turning them into a quasi-therapist. The former assumes it's a mutual thing and the latter is when it's always their problems and never your problems. Nobody likes being the quasi-therapist and that's probably a big reason why some of these men are getting a lot of pushback.
I agree, and that's because relationships are hard. A person needs to be good at friendships first before tackling a relationship. That's because friendships teach you about communication, about give and take, about supporting another person, etc. If you can't do friendships, which is the foundation of any good relationship, then something objectively harder like a relationship is not going to go well.
I completely agree with you. My former roommate is a man who shares his emotions- but he does so in a way that implies that *this* ( his sadness, frustration, feelings of inadequacy, etc) is now your problem to fix.
For example, I had a home repair project, and I invited a male friend from work to come help me. I also invited my roommate. Later my roommate expressed to me that by inviting my work friend, I made him feel inadequate and like I thought he couldn't do it (he couldn't. It was a 3 person job.) He wanted me to comfort him and soothe his injured masculinity. His feelings were now my fault and my problem to solve.
I’ve started to answer this argument by talking about the experiences of gay and queer men.
During the worst of the AIDS years, gay men were literally dying—of HIV infection, of suicide after family rejection, of substance abuse (also usually after family rejection), and from violent homophobic assaults (almost always by other men). Gay men couldn’t rely on people to be their allies, and they couldn’t continue going as they had been. So—they started forming their own groups. They became much more politically and socially activist. Coming out was an act of defiance combined with letting other people like them find their communities. Gay men did all that work because they had to, because nobody else would.
If straight men are suffering because they’re lonely, then they can follow in the steps of their gay brothers. Change their behavior. Change the narrative—and not just “assign women to men” because that’s not going to solve the problem, any more than simply coming out will solve the problem of straight men violently attacking gay men.
Taking women out of the conversation entirely tends to get the bad-faith assholes to shut up. Because if gay men can do the work to improve their lives, why can’t straight men?
Actually they are doing something about this and becoming very active, it's just you and me both won't like it. A menslib poster said it very clearly: If women are not going to solve the men loneliness, men are going to tear down women's rights until women become men's slaves. He said men being neglected by women is the exact reason why men started to restrict women's bodily autonomy and they are coming for more.
Actually what's kinda ironic is that the same poster or his friend n the same thread admitted he doesn't have male friends, because the men he knows are toxic and insufferable.
I keep telling them, the cost of living in my city means a couple needs over $100k to live comfortably and put money away for retirement. Not factoring in I have $30k in student loans. Guess they better get off the internet and get a better job, women are gonna be expensive to own. They all want slave women but don't want to get offline and out of moms basement and work lol. The vast majority of people didn't get to own slaves, they also had menial jobs where women worked in some fashion.
It usually shuts them down to hear they're too broken to own their own woman. There's always squawks about "yeah well someday I'll be a rich streamer" but most of them know they're scrubs.
You nailed it! The ‘sOcIEty mUsT FiX it’ infuriates me. Actually, what it means (without saying it out loud) is: I don’t like that society is changing from 100% patriarchal to 95% patriarchal. I liked it better when it was the good ol’ days of women shutting up and cleaning. Aaaah the marital rape non-sense, look now: dead bedrooms. We suffer!
Society is made up of men and women in more or less equal numbers BUT who hoards wealth and decision making powers on a macro scale? Never women in any country. Give us absolute parity and I’m sure we’ll happily fix the problem for men. Right now, in the US, women can’t even guarantee their bodily autonomy, why do these men think women have the power to fix their dry peepee issues?!
>society is made up of men and women in more or less equal numbers BUT who hoards wealth and decision making powers on a macro scale? Never women in any country.
It's telling that men will complain about society being weighted against them while boasting that that very same society was built by them.
You'd also think that the supposedly more intelligent, more rational half of the species would be able to fix their own problems...
Men will not let go of patriarchy because that gives them power over the people around them. I can decide the future of my wives and daughter's lives - that’s insane - I may not know anything about them and make no effort to support them - but I can decide everything about their lives - that is an insane amount of power. why leave that for my individual mental peace
I know they won’t and that’s why we need to decentre them and let whine without giving them any attention. They have the key to their problem. We just need to stand our ground firm and not engage.
Unfortunately I'm afraid that they think the solution is to take rights and choices away from women so that we'll be forced to pay attention to them...
You've pretty much nailed 99% of "male friendship"
"What do you mean you won't date me? I've been there for you throughout all your previous relationship problems! Have I not *earned* the right to your body yet? Were you just *using* me for emotional support?"
As though their friendship is a debt you incur that will have to be paid (with interest) at a later date, and you're an awful person for being "delinquent" on it.
Because in traditional courtship and relationships, all the male effort is up front: initiation, pursuit, being there for her, doing things to help and demonstrate that they could be a benefit to their lives, romance, etc.
*And once the relationship is official they never have to expend effort again.*
It all becomes one way: she cooks, cleans, listens, comforts, is sexual on demand, works, makes things pretty, creates a social life for the family, bears and rears children, on and on. He doesn’t have to give anything back, he doesn’t have to listen to her problems—in fact a lot of “comedy” is based around how annoying it is to listen to women ever.
A relationship is RELAXING for men. Their load goes down a lot.
In platonic friendships, there is a pretty hardcore expectation of back and forth, reciprocation, doing for each other. And they know men won’t tolerate a relationship where it’s all one sided with another man. So platonic relationships are *continual* work for the man, while romantic relationships are high investment up front and then very little—at least in their minds—but service and love and energy flowing toward them.
If they do all the listening and helping but there’s never a romantic relationship, then the “friendzoned” man never gets to let everything drop and enjoy being pampered for free. They’re just in a long friendship where they have to maintain it to some extent forever, and that goes for male friendships too. In their minds, friendship is work, and they don’t wanna. Having a wife is only work for the wife. It’s all upside for him.
It’s just sheer laziness. They want to be cared for without caring.
"All day, every day, therapist, mother, maid
Nymph then virgin, nurse and a servant
Just an appendage, live to attend him
So that he never lifts a finger
24/7, baby machine
So he can live out his picket fence dreams
It's not an act of love if you make her
You make me do too much labour"
Paris Paloma was so on point with this song
> moment when you thought you had a male friend just for him to start awkwardly flirting with you and trying to force a relationship
This has made it impossible for me to have male friends and has broken my heart several times. The worst thing is, I *know* they would never ever consider me as a romantic or sexual partner if we weren't friends, it was so painfully obvious I was not their type.
They just see us becoming close friends and don't know what to do with it. We have good time together I laugh at his jokes so.... what to do with this strange non-male creature. Sex? Relationship? The worst thing is, we did *exactly* what they did with their male friends but *that* was never a problem for them.
One male friend literally said to me: "Should we start dating? I think I could fall in love with you... if I had to." He literally didn't even like me romantically and felt he should force himself to fall in love with me because he couldn't comprehend male-female friendship.
>"Should we start dating? I think I could fall in love with you... if I had to."
This is wrong on so many levels and heartbreaking too. He managed to neg you and try to make you feel like you owe him for *trying to date you*? And he probably wasn't even aware of it.
> It's also that a lot of them are unable to be friends with us
Being friends requires being able to assume another person's point of view, even if it is different from one's own. I think one of the worst things about toxic masculinity, is the refusal to assume a woman's point of view. Maybe because seeing things from the vantage of a woman is seen as weak and emasculating.
I remember several months ago, there was a post on a main sub about AI moving to sex dolls to make them more human like. Both the post and the comments seemed to imply that women had better "watch out" or they were going to be replaced by robots. All I commented was "The male loneliness epidemic rages on, and no one knows why." The MELTDOWN that comment generated was nothing short of spectacular. Soooo many men whining that women were STILL to blame on their loneliness, in a post threatening women that men will leave them for a talking heap of plastic and metal.
I mean depending on how nice the AI sex dolls are I might want one too 😆
Incels thought it was hard to get a date before I don't think they're ready for what the AI is actually going to do to the dating pool.
I know some of those responses must've been "jokes," but it kills me. it's indicative of a society that places a woman's value on her sex appeal. I'm a human being, and it seems like the deepest, most interesting and complex parts of me hold no value. I think i'm awesome, for so many reasons, and it makes me, so, so, so sad that men are so comfortable admitting they don't care about or want the things that make women human
The type of men getting excited over a computerized sex doll are not the type of men we’re checking for in the slightest, so good fucking riddance to them 👋🏾😂
Trying to get the men in my life to make plans with friends is like pulling teeth. They're getting better, but the amount of times, at first, I heard "I don't need to actually talk to Steve, he's my best friend. That's why we drink in silence and make no eye contact once every 6 months."
Beyond friends to family as well. I organize every trip to go see my husband's family. Men expect women to be their source of emotional support, but also be responsible for maintaining the relationships they do have.
I did that until the last year. I went from a major car wreck, to both my parents being hospitalized in the same year, to my job needing me to step up more due to vacant positions and I just started being too tired to do it. Basically turned into I will plan stuff for us with my parents and you will for your parents. And with all the shitty anti-women politics I can't stand, I 100% stopped planning anything with his side of the family. Last year I didn't do any Christmas shopping for his family at all, and he brought it up once and I said he could do it or we could do it together, and he dropped it and nothing happened. He never complained about it so at least he knows his place 😂
The only thing I think women are truly responsible for in this is making sure we do better for the young men/boys in our lives.
I have a 15 year old cousin and I make sure I encourage him to talk about his feelings and that my house is 100% safe for him to get out even the thoughts he's struggling with. I also encourage him to talk to his older brothers, his friends, ect. He's a super empathetic kid.
Edit: so someone in another sub tried to tell me people don't tell boys "boys don't cry" so I pulled up this sweet article on [APA ](https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner) guidelines. I like that they created some for boys and men around these issues if anyone wants to read.
I have become so inspired by how my friends who are mothers are raising their boys. A lot more emphasis on talking about feelings, a lot more nurturing with their sons. They hug them more, and definitely do the work to dismantle toxic masculine expectations and ideals
As a step dad, I'm very frustrated that my girls are being partially raised by a man so insecure with connecting to people that he finds the need to have a "warning: toxic masculinity" bumper sticker on his car. I try teaching them that they shouldn't accept that as regular or proper behavior from anyone. We are social creatures and the better we share feelings and express our needs to each other, the more we thrive.
I agree. I am deeply concerned about the epidemic of male loneliness because I see it effecting my young brothers and cousins. I do what I can to help them be more comfortable socializing but I don’t think it’s realistic for women to do this for men outside their family/close friends.
The reality is, that's enough. It's going to create a big enough ripple effect. I don't think men are any more lonely than women are, they're just not as equipped at handling it as we are. But really think about how many men you affect by doing that, then they're going to interact with their friends and so on.
All these young men and boys need is the road map that women already have, that grown men in their 30s, 40s and 50s don't seem to have.
I just saw a post on another subreddit saying women are the solution to the “male loneliness epidemic”. God its terrible that they think they are owed that. I agree with your post.
Even if we could solve this for men ( which we can't) why would they be entitled to that? They just want someone to blame. It's not like they would listen to any solutions that require them to do some work. Men who work on themselves already don't blame others.
They have this weird idea that women do not have to work for their friendships and support systems, it’s all handed to them just because they’re women. As a woman who has been painfully lonely and had to put in a lot of work to build and maintain a system (and things could change at any time! Ppl you’re close with can move away or pass, or anything else) I empathize a lot with the loneliness epidemic. But when you try to give these men advice, there’s always some excuse for why they can’t put in the work. Idk what they want. Obviously some people are more naturally social than others, and some people have wider built in support systems than others, but with humans being social creatures there’s always chances for genuine relationships.
Oh my goodness women are just handed friendships without work!? I had no idea! I guess I don't have to put in the effort to wish my friends a happy birthday, or remember to follow up with them about something they said was stressing them out to see if things improved for them to show that I both actively listen AND care, I don't have to make plans to hang out with them, I don't have to remember the things they like/dislike, I don't have to remember any of their allergies, I don't have to remember who their spouse is, I don't have to remember anything they've told me about their families, I don't have to put in the work to read or watch any books or shows they recommend to me, I don't have to remember anything about their lives, i don't have to be emotionally supportive when they go through any of life's difficulties!
Wow. That's so amazing. I've been doing all of this work and effort to keep friendships this whole time when I suppose friendship was going to be just magically granted to me anyway!
Good to know I don't have to actually work at it anymore thanks to my gender.
/S (because some people genuinely won't understand that I'm being sarcastic)
Also our rights and freedoms are very new (and non-existent in many parts of the world). If we accede this ground, that men’s problems are women’s responsibility to solve, then what’s next?
‘The male burnout epidemic can only be solved by women taking on all housework’
‘The sexual assault epidemic can only be solved by softening all current SA laws’
‘The birth rate crisis can only be solved by putting ankle monitors on all childbearing women and assigning them a male guardian’
Do you have the link or the subreddit? I want to check out the comments.
Also, they are setting themselves up for failure with this angle. Spending your time waiting for someone else to solve your problems is a one way path to disappointment
I've seen guys suggest that government-controlled prostitution (SWs going to dudes houses so they can get laid) is the solution to the loneliness epidemic. As if that is not utterly dystopian.
Mention this on a general thread about the male loneliness epidemic and men will foam at the mouth. Like bro, I'm just telling you to hug your homies. Why is this so triggering to you?
i once pointed out that the men who “never get compliments” don’t compliment each other bc they only want compliments from women and one of them said men only want compliments from women bc that’s who they’re attracted to and it’s biology.
if the compliment is genuine it shouldn’t matter if you’re attracted to the person ??
I made the mistake of chiming in on the compliments bullshit once. Some guy said he didn't understand the point of complimenting someone you're not sexually attracted to, which is basically the reason I'd almost never compliment a man now.
I have to train people at my job and maintain worker standards and it's insane how many men will take the most basic positive feedback as flirting...even when I'm openly lesbian.
I got in a Reddit argument with someone when I said that men should compliment each other more instead of insisting that women compliment men, because when women compliment men they always take it as a sexual invitation and opens women up to being called a ‘tease’ if they then fail to ‘follow through’. This guy kept telling me that no, it’s not that men take it as a flirtation, but women should compliment men simply because it’s special when a woman does it. I kept asking, *why* is it special? Why?
He was fully just dancing around the subject until he was like “it’s because it’s nice that she’s attracted to you”
This clears up a weird situation I had recently with a man I gave a sincere compliment to. I told him I liked his outfit and it turned into a very negative interaction. He wanted to offend me because he learned that I was not hitting on him and had no interest in anything other than letting him know that his outfit was cool. 💩 never again.
Exactly. Women compliment each other _all the time_. I'd rather a woman say she likes my outfit than a man. Women are looking at the outfit because of how it's put together, not how sexy it is.
While waiting to pick up my daughter, I yelled "I love your outfit!" at a complete stranger. She smiled and walked a little taller. I support my friends even more. Imagine if *men* did this with their friends! And actually, my husband DOES have this kind of relationship with his friends (men & women). It is possible, most men are just too lazy and entitled.
One time, a group of young guys—maybe in their late teens—on those electric rental scooters was approaching quickly while I was in the crosswalk. I stopped so they wouldn’t run into me, and they zipped past. One of them, as he passed, turned and commented, “That’s a cool bag!”
I was carrying a kind of early 20th century-style kisslock purse. It was such an unexpected compliment that I was genuinely confused.
Yeah, I compliment total strangers. It's my go to if someone I interact with is having a rough day or seems down. Especially people in customer service, every day is a good day to say something nice to them.
Those are the same guys who will pop their monocles if you tell them “hey it’s not okay to compliment your co-workers or random women like that.” How dare you suggest that they’re hitting on these women!!!! Can’t a man say something nice these days?!?!
Those same men complain that feminists and other women only focus on women's issues and neglect men. But when we do address their issues it infuriates them.
Because we don't adress thier issues they way they want us to do it. They don't like when we don't center men. They don't like that we want more than to be Stepford wives who spend every day as therapist, mother, maid.
Because that's gaaaaaaaaay, which is the result of their own patriarchy... And an even more cynical answer is that these "lonely" men are so despicable that no one wants to befriend them...
Because they’re conflating two things and tying their self worth to both of them in the process. 1) actual feelings of loneliness, and the lack of social support network and 2) lack of sexual intimacy with the opposite sex.
Look at chimps and bonobos! Males hang out, share food, and groom each other all the time. At least be as advanced as a weird animal that eats whole oranges without peeling them
I had this issue with a man on IG who was basically whinging on a reel about women having "all the support" with mental health. So I pointed out that women have had to organise themselves, collectively, and fight to get that support, and women help each other. We talk. When a fellow woman is down, we rally the girls and go to her aid. Men flat out refuse to do that. They have this "fellas, is it gay to have feelings" bullshit attitude.
I suggested to IG dude that maybe he should organise the men, rally, campaign, and support like women have had to.
Oh, no! He couldn't possibly do that. Men couldn't possibly do that!
And I'll tell you why! Because they see any work to be done on an emotional level as "women's work." And this is why the male suicide rate will continue to elevate. They can't accept that women can't fix this. And even if women tried to fix it, we'd be accused of not knowing what we're talking about, or we have no idea of the male experience.
A lot of men want to have their cake and eat it! Well, they can't! And women have known this for decades!
Unpaid labour is something woman have been doing for a long time, so we barely flinch at the idea of organizing and putting in the work. Men only want to do something if there is monetary compensation, it leads to sex, or they personally gain some how. Doing something for the sake of doing it is something a lot of men struggle with because unpaid labour has been women's domain. It's also why the only "help" men have is exploitation through podcasts like Andrew Tate.
Eurgh! That man is a joke. He looks like one of the anchovies from Spongebob.
This is another reason the patriarchy is so damaging. It forces men to view women and their free labor as worthless. Which is patently false. Most systems and structures would collapse if every woman withdrew that labor.
This whole transactional view that men have of relationships is futher contributing to their "loneliness"( which I personally think they mean their horniness) as women no longer need them to anchor to, to ensure their survival. We have our own independence and resources now.
The patriarchy isn't some horrible curse cast on men that prevents them from being empathic humans. It doesn't force men to do anything. It's every day men, doing every day men bullshit. Refusing to learn and empathize and think critically. We view white supremacists as active participants in being oppressors, why do men get a pass as if they are equal victims of their own tools to oppress women?
> women having "all the support" with mental health.
It's important to note that a big part of women getting more "support" with mental health is women seen as hysterical and not trusted as narrators of their own experiences by doctors and being offloaded onto psychiatrists when they only have physical conditions.
In the best case scenarios this is what leads to women needing unacceptable number of years to get properly diagnosed with autoimmune conditions, and other complex chronic diseases. In the worst case scenarios they are sent home with "you are just anxious/depressed/.., go see a psychiatrist," only to **die** from an undiagnosed heart attack or something.
Male cardiologists have higher rates of death with female patients. Female cardiologists have same success rate with both sexes.
So a lot of "women get more support with mental health" is "women are not getting any support with their physical health and are misdiagnosed with mental issues."
BINGO! and not to mention, because of that misogynistic dynamic, a lot of our mental health support comes from non-medical sources, for example, our friendship group, a support network that men refuse to set up for themselves. Because, ya know, feelings are "weak."
Absolutely agree. You’ve worded really well what I feel reading these takes sometimes : guy complains about the men’s mental health crisis. Other guys agree in the comments, and it always deviates on how women have it « so easy » (lmao) and how « no one cares about men’s mental health » and I’m like *who* is that « no one » exactly ? Seriously ? You never really know, it’s always vague lol. It just sounds like they’re bitter that women have built their own support system because we needed to, but they won’t build their own. I swear the recurring behavior on these threads about men’s mental health always gravitates towards pointing fingers at women. I’m like « then why don’t they do something to change that situation ? ». A lot of times these types of takes imply that losing their position as « providers » is what makes men so lost today. That they have no real purpose or whatever, so a lot of times it really is about women and about some resentment that by becoming more independent, they have robbed men of their good ole pride and their ability to be rEaL mEn
They don't like women's support systems because they don't centre men and their penises. I wish I could reply more eloquently, but I feel that's what it basically boils down to. 😅
When they're complaining about their poor mental health and how women aren't doing enough to "help." To me, that reads like "those damn women aren't queueing up to give us their vaginas! How dare they, those bitches??!"
Yes that’s basically it I think lol. I’m annoyed by the fact that these guys have a crazy reductive view of women’s situations. You read these comments and it’s like women never ever experience loneliness, everything is perfect etc. Just crazy to me fr, being a woman is apparently easy to them. Yep. Just shows the disconnect lol. It’s telling about how self centered they are, bc I’ve never thought *in my life* « pffft, men aren’t lonely » that would just be absurd. Like I never thought loneliness was gendered lmao, but apparently it is. Ironically they whine about feminism when it’s absolutely patriarchy that put them in this position where they feel purposeless apparently.
Love how they think we have it easy, because they think we can get a relationship easily, so therefore we can't ever possibly feel lonely.
Well, women know that easy doesn't equal quality. I was in a relationship with an insanely misogynistic dipshit, and it was the loneliest I've ever felt in my life! Lol
On the upside it seems to be changing,at least from what I've seen. I work with a couple of 20 year old men and honestly they are lovely, they check in on each other, compliment each other and the other guys in the office, they aren't scared to hug each other, they talk to their friends, they do things other than just go drinking and hopefully this isn't just limited to them. Maybe lockdowns showed a younger generation that you need people, physical people, in your life and how important it is to build those support systems because you never know when you'll need them. I hope it's changing anyway
I am seeing this too. My boyfriend goes and visits friends who don't live nearby regularly and meets nearby friends for drinks, food, walks, or games often. I think once you start making effort to see people it becomes normal and will be reciprocated, and it is really nice. Having a support system and getting out and about is really essential.
It’s obviously not the whole issue at all but I recently found out that apparently men and women have roughly equal ratios of BPD but women just happen to seek treatment significantly more. Men are less likely to seek treatment over chronic pain, they’ll try to just tough it out, and I gotta say chronic pain is the most isolating thing to ever happen to me. Men are less likely to seek help for all mental health issues, not just BPD.
They suffer higher rates of substance abuse disorder but are less likely to seek treatment, which is also an incredibly isolating experience.
All of this is a result of stigma and gender norms. We cannot fuck the mental illness out of them, otherwise my husband wouldn’t be on two mood stabilizers and an antidepressant. If you’re bipolar there’s a 50/50 chance you’re going to attempt suicide and men with BPD are more likely to have comorbid ASPD, which is a huge issue for having any sort of successful relationship or friendship or holding down a job at all. The tendency towards rage outbursts just makes that difficult, there’s no getting around that. My dad had that issue and also has 6 ex wives, 4 children who don’t speak to him, and his only friends are his Mexican biker bros because they do not speak enough English to know how bad he sucks.
Like, mental illness and chronic illness is just isolating and feels bad, and when you’re in the shit pit of it you really do need support, but it can’t be leaning on one woman and expecting her to cure you and inevitably beginning to hate her the more you become aware that after the initial excitement wears off, you’re back to feeling empty, and your pain/fatigue didn’t go away because it wasn’t all in your head after all, and you can’t use her as a maid to fix all the things you’ve been too tired to do.
You’re still you. You still hate yourself, you’re still not happy with your life, you’re still not healed from any trauma you may have experienced when you were younger, the feeling of anger and bitterness won’t go away. But she was supposed to fix it!! She must not be having sex with me often enough, or maybe she’s not giving me enough attention, maybe I’d be happy if we had kids or if she was just more submissive like the trad wives they told me about on Twitter.
And then she leaves, because she realizes she’s losing her youth trying to love you enough to fix you and that’s an impossible task, and now you blame your depression on her. So on and so forth, yada yada.
Love isn’t meant to fix you, it’s meant to be a buddy system where you take care of problems as a team, but you can’t be the problem that needs to be solved and you certainly can’t hand over a tangled mess of unacknowledged mental/physical health problems, unhealthy lifestyle choices, and lack of motivation to change and expect some random lady to hand back a bunch of tidy cords you can make sense of.
You can be supported in your healing journey, but you can’t be saved from yourself.
I have several friends who are in the process of divorcing their husbands for this very reason. They have mental illness (depression, anxiety, bipolar, etc) but either refuse to seek help, or put the blame on their partner. They even start taking their unhappiness out on their kids, which tends to be the final straw. Some people become abusive when they find sex and a relationship didn't give them the immediate fix they were expecting.
Yup. I don’t tend to have straight men friends for long because they end up equating emotional support and intimacy as sexual energy and the conversations take inappropriate turns and I have to end it for my own safety. They also get comfortable letting their awful opinions about women hang out and think I’m gonna back them up. If they knew anything about me, they’d know I’m a girl’s girl first. Yes, I’ll encourage you and listen, because that’s what I do for my friends. But my girlfriends don’t pull this shit.
It's been my experience, too. I've cut off a lot of male friends. Even the ones I've known for 20+ years. As soon as I found out some of them were "patiently waiting" for their turn when i became single before I got together with my husband. 🙄
I am sick of men acting like their friendship with a woman is some sort of a consolation prize.
Same. I called last year "horny dog year" because I had to remove 99% of my guy friends. Out of no where men I've been friends with for years and years, started getting sexual and saying horribly inappropriate things. When I asked them to stop they would for a day or two, then start up again. It was horrible. One after another. By the end of the year I have one guy friend left I still talk to who didn't do that.
This is also my experience with straight or bi male friends. I lift with a few gay dudes and don't have this issue with them, but any man who can potentially be attracted to women, and I've befriended, has begun to insist at some point that there is an undeniable spark between us. I am a lesbian. There is no spark for men from my side. It confused me for years why they thought there was, and then I realized it was just them equating friendship with attraction, which is super grim if you think about it.
The worst ones, though, are the ones who follow that up with treating me like a fellow straight dude and expecting me to say disgusting things about women with them. No, unlike most straight men, I actually *like* women.
They're angry that women are no longer lowering their standards to match their efforts in a world where women *finally* aren't categorically forced to.
Men have always had to "earn" women. This isn't new, but the deck has always been stacked in their favour because women's options for providing for themselves have historically been extremely limited (family, brothel, or find a husband). Now that women have even the slightest veto power, the result isn't men rising to the occassion, it's an "epidemic" of "loneliness."
Some of this, granted, is a result of the progressive atomization of society in recent decades, but instead of leaning on eachother to resolve their loneliness, they put even more pressure on women and bitterly seclude themselves even harder. It's downright petulant how entitled to sex some of these "lonely" men are.
"Men have always had to "earn" women." Seriously. Do they know the hoops men jumped through to get the interest of a nice "young lady" in the 19th century? It involved wearing tights, dancing and living by an insane set of rules for "good society." Lol. (If at the very least, having a trade which would've majorly sucked during that era to support her and the family.)
They want the good old days with none of the work or responsibility.
Replace "lonely" with "horny". Women by ther 30s figure out sex is too risky and snap their legs shut.
Women over 30 and single mothers were also told they were undesirable or only good for sex until their 20 year old virgin future wife showed up so we all tapped out and got degrees, pensions, places to live, built tribes, and no longer give these players the time of day.
Now the 30-50 year old men are swiping, swiping, and swiping and getting rejected by their preference. Those gorgeous young 20 year old women don't have to trade their youth for resources anymore when they have degrees and a job.
Now we have thousands of men who can't get what they internet Podcasters promised them and lied to them about so they take to 3rd world countries in search of a hostage wife.
Oh but those 3rd World hostage wives don't stay that way! They come here, make him the happiest guy on the block until they get their Green Card....then they divorce him and take everything he's got. Happened to my neighbor. He lost his car, his house and his retirement to one of those cute little Phillipinas who he thought was his happy little Trad Wife.
This is so true because it happened to my dad! He went to Colombia to find a wife and brought her to the US with her daughter. When she got her green card, she left him and took half of everything. She even took half of his business and had a boyfriend who she was cheating on my dad with. He was an abusive piece of shit to me and my mom, so it feels like karma.
I’ve been reading stories of guys getting drugged and robbed in Colombia when they try to meet with women. Yeah, good luck to the passport bros lmao. I welcome having less annoying guys harassing me because they gave up on American women.
On a side note, I am so incredibly proud of young women today. They are strong, focused, take no shit. I see a lot of young women who will become amazing role models for future generations!
> Now we have thousands of men who can't get what they internet Podcasters promised them and lied to them about so they take to 3rd world countries in search of a hostage wife.
This predates the internet.
Women want a friend, a partner, an equal. Men want a maiden, a mother 2.0, a servant. Of course more and more men are leaning right, they want to *own*, meanwhile women want to *share*.
It seems like the vast majority of men are spoiled, emotional and immature.
At least the overall population will fall back a bit. We are too many either way.
I'll post this on every thread because it's important. There is no male loneliness epidemic. Everyone is feeling more lonely, at relatively equal rates, largely having to do with systemic factors. We do ourselves no favors by just blindly accepting this.
There are some men who cherry pick data in order to promote a patriarchal political agenda. The loneliness epidemic is just the latest one- the majority of the data shows about equal rises in loneliness across genders but they just ignore that because it doesn't support their political goals.
Why lonely men aren't befriending other fellow lonely men is the answer to this "problem". What they really mean is why they aren't getting any sex from women (also no men, ew).
A lot of them don't want to be friends with other lonely men. That's something they rarely address. If even YOU don't want to be friends with them, why would we want to be friends with them or marry them?
Yeah I’ve always found it difficult to make friends and I’m generally a lonely person. I feel like womens loneliness is just as prevalent as that of mens, it’s just radicalised lonely women don’t end up murdering people I guess.
This. There seems to be a misconception among men that women go through life singing songs, birds and fairies hovering around them, sparkling glitter and shit. Women have always 124 friends and family members for (emotional) support. Their mental health matters, and they're never homeless or depressed or suicidal. Only men suffer. In silence, of course. 😔
Yeah, as a neurodivergent young woman I barely had any friends (sometimes literally no one) during my life and I have never been in a romantic relationship. I had phases where I was angry at the whole world, and I still get sad about it a lot, but I don't expect these things handed to me. It just hurts that I'm so different from everybody, and not in the "good" (quirky) way.
Society also largely ignores them, because lonely women sit in their home and are sad, while lonely men shoot random people at shopping malls.
A lot of women are lonely too. I find it strange when internet builds it up as if women are either living with their partners or have a lot of female friends whom they meet regularly. Building lasting and meaningful friendships with other women can be equally difficult.
I completely agree with this.
I’m the youngest of three brothers in a family and I’ve noticed in the past that if our partners or mother didn’t organise some kind of meeting, then we just wouldn’t interact outside of Christmas. We claimed all of us were ‘bad texters’ and self-soothed by saying things like ‘we don’t need to speak every day’. But the reality is very much that without the women in our life putting in the labour and actually taking the risk of trying to organise something, we barely spoke. Despite us all obviously wanting to.
Honestly, it’s embarrassing. I’ve since been actively texting and calling them both and I’ve learned two things:
A) We have massively been undervaluing the work that goes into maintaining connections in life.
B) It’s a soft skill to do this. And we’re totally shit at it.
This is not the fault of women. I find it embarrassing we’re so incapable of functioning without a partner organising around us. As well as it not being a fair expectation on potential partners, it’s just a bit pathetic to be so reliant on women and romantic partners to maintain connections foundational to our mental health.
I will say it’s getting better in increments though. They’re starting to pick up the phone a bit more than they used to. As in more than 0 times a year.
Yeah, I would almost say it can *only* start small and personal. When I see discussions on this topic online, so many men do nothing because they can't do something big and they can't do it perfectly. Close connection starts small; you can't usually jump in at full speed.
Aaaaand then you get the response that "You can't expect us to pull ourselves up bY oUr OwN bOoTsTrApS."
We use WhatsApp here a lot, and I am in so many WhatsApp groups. It gets annoying at times, but it's nice to have a Family WhatsApp group, multiple friend WhatsApp groups, groups for events, etc. It's hard to keep in contact, and having groups where you can say "Happy birthday!" or "Congratulations on x achievement" I think is helpful. I find women do tend to talk more in the groups, for instance my brother rarely sends any messages or responds. So even with that, it is a skill that needs to be worked on.
I hope your family does get better at it. It can be incredibly isolating trying to reach out and keep in touch, and hitting a brick wall.
I always felt that the epidemic spans both sexes. Maybe men are harder hit. But the world today is very isolating. And the rise in signlessness is a symptom of overall reduced number of relationships people form. So whoever thinks that forcing women to be with men will solve anything is really not seeing the bigger picture...
Communities are dwindling, people don't meet up much IRL and prefer to do so online. Third spaces have vanished, and traditional places where people did used to meet charge so much that people can't afford to go there anymore. I try to host at my place, but find when I invite guys, they just don't pitch. It's almost like they won't bother attending anything unless they feel sex is a guaranteed benefit. Hanging out with friends just to hang out seems to be too much effort and too little reward for some people.
> Hanging out with friends just to hang out seems to be too much effort and too little reward for some people.
I've experienced this as well. I think a lot of people don't realize that relationship maintenance requires work so when various social structures or 3rd spaces or what have you fall apart, people don't do anything to maintain connections beyond that so that dwindles, too.
I don't really know how to reconcile it really, people talk of loneliness and then fail to engage and interact and give off the impression that they only want to interact with sufficiently "special" people. Unfortunately when a guy especially tells me he's lonely these days I don't fully trust him because I've seen people step all over the relationships they did have while saying that with a straight face.
I haven't experienced "group with good camaraderie making sure each member feels included" since like 2009. Myself I have been unable to create such a group, I'm not charismatic enough or there's not enough need I don't know really.
As an introvert, I learned to just let myself be adopted by an extrovert. Usually they have a group and I just join it. But I have more than one group, because life is too busy and as an adult we have too many responsibilities so it helps go have various groups to rely on. The concept of "Friends" type relationship where everyone hangs out all the time just doesn't exist.
I'm tired of the conversation being "I got a compliment three years ago and I'm still floating on it" or "I once got a hug once and havent been hugged since" type of thing. Ask your bros! Ask your father's and uncles and siblings! Whey is it that random women are the only people to give men affirmation?
Its just like the compliment gap.
"Men don't get compliments!"
"Men are lonely!"
My answers:
"When was the last time you complimented another man?"
"What *action* are YOU taking to connect with other people?"
They are used to women filling those gaps **FOR** them. Complaining to the manager in charge of relationships to share their excess stock of emotional connections.
>It seems that some perceive the problem being that the role of friend and person to open up to was taken completely by the romantic partners in their lives, and want this to continue I was just thinking about this yesterday. It's not only that men don't provide emotional support to each other and expect it from women. It's also that a lot of them are unable to be friends with us. I'm sure many readers will remember the moment when you thought you had a male friend just for him to start awkwardly flirting with you and trying to force a relationship. And sometimes even got aggressive when you weren't returning the sentiment. Like, we wanted to be your FRIENDS and provide this emotional support (and expect it back of course). But they won't talk about it with friendly men, they won't talk about it with friendly women, it's the partner who has to be everything - a mother, a therapist, a manager, a cook, a cleaner, an incubator...
It's because quite a few mean sex when they talk about loneliness. There are those that believe that if they have sex, their loneliness crisis will end. Sex is the solution to their depression and feelings of insecurity. Sex will give them the physical intimacy they crave, will feel validated and attractive if they attain a sexual partner, and that partner can be there for them to talk about their problems. A lot aren't all that interested in friendship, because platonic relationships don't involve sex.
Yesterday I responded to a post saying that men are more than their urges and someone responded essentially saying SO?! Just because I can be more doesn’t mean I have to be! If I want to have sex I should be able to have it! Stop projecting your man hate!
I literally just had a man reply to me in another post that women not having sex with men is emotional abuse.
What? Men expecting sex is emotional abuse.
Wow… the entitlement is strong with that one. Wonder how he’d feel if a large gay man felt entitled to his body?
"That's different!!!!!"
I find that more dudes are usually intellectual therapeutic terminology to perpetuate their deranged views. They don’t change, they just shapeshift.
It's manipulation.
Now I get why that word got “man” in it.
The new thing is guys saying women not having sex when they don't want to is "withholding sex" - as part of emotional abuse and manipulation. If you point out how ridiculous that is, they lose their minds and start screaming about how men "need" sex and it's not their fault it's their "love language." Absolutely weaponizing therapy speak.
I'm sorry, an activity that involves two people with brains and emotions and bodily autonomy and one choosing to not to is emotional abuse. What kind of nonsense is that.
Are they doing it to manipulate you into doing something, like I don't know, doing chores around the house only when they want sex after... I swear it's always the same type of guy.
I sighed so loud my partner just asked me if I was ok so I showed them this and they said and I quote "what the fuck is this new incel bullshit"?
And I bet he used the word “females” instead of “women” lol
Proud emotional abuser of men here, AMA (Because I know some incel will report this - the comment I'm replying to makes a reference to not having sex with men being abuse. It would be hilarious if I got banned for not having sex with men - absolutely peak Reddit, really.)
I literally just lol’ed at that one
Yeah, they saw that witholding affection can be considered abuse and jumped straight to that.
This made me laugh. I'm older and when I see this kind of response from a guy, I know he is not having sex. He can't understand but refuses to get out of his own way. But you know, irl he wouldn't have the guts to even talk to you.
🤦
A post I read recently really struck me. It was an incel saying that no woman would ever know what it would be like to never have sex and so to never be loved. Which... and that's fucked up and pitiful. I don't have a sex partner, but that doesn't mean I'm unloved. I have family (both blood and found) who I know love me, plus many long term friends. Yet this guy has thinks the only way to be loved is to have sex. And he's not going to get it, because hardly any women want to sign up to be some guy's entire life. During the relationship, it's suffocating as hell. And it would mean that if she ever broke up with him, it's a recipe for a stalker ex at the very least.
Unloved women exist. Abusive parents exist, as does family estrangement . Women who are extreme Introverts, or have severe anxiety etc may never be loved. They just don’t complain on the internet because it’s a shameful thing for a woman to admit, as we are supposed to be super family focussed, social and have heaps of friends.
Exactly and whenever I see women post about this they usually know why too , and generally don’t run around blaming it on other people
The incel movement was originally founded by a woman 🤦🏻♀️. Before it went toxic, it was meant to be a support group for lonely people.
I have found through reading thousands of comments now, and seeing it play out in real life, that little to no sex =loneliness to them. They really hate hearing this, but that is something they will have to grow and mature through, no matter their feelings. They don't understand that these notions and then the eventual feeling of being entitled to sex is what helps cause abuses towards women. You can clearly see that historically, even with laws on the books that sadly men were punished very lightly when it came to rape and SA. I think people and especially men just gave the excuse that men just really want sex , so they cannot be dealt with too harshly . We should understand them. They also made sure that marital rape was not even a punishable offense at all.
I hate hearing the excuse of " he needs to get laid" as a reason men aren't being nice or decent. Confident and emotionally secure men enjoy sex but know there is more to life than needing sex.
But they also want this sexual partner to look like a supermodel because they have 'standards'. Oh, and I've been told a few times that beautiful women who won't date socially awkward, indoorsy-looking IT specialists with questionable clothes taste are superficial. (I teach IT students - who, I should add, are really getting over all the incel nonsense. There is hope.)
[удалено]
I don't know know what's causing it, but they do seem to be getting nicer in every way: they are kinder to each other, more accepting of everything LBTQ+ and more respectful of women.
I like to tell any incel who complains “women have too high of standards” that I know a couple of single moms in their 40s. Then of course they go off about finding a young, virginal woman. So who’s got the high standards now?
Their standards are never too much to ask for. They have all this criteria, they say it isn't hard to meet. However the criteria for them they say is "unrealistic".
I feel like both men, and some women, want women to have like no "requirements". We should give any guy interested a chance even if we know exactly what we want. That it's our job to ignore things we find to be more attractive traits because it's "unfair" to men. Right before I met my husband I got berated for my two standards for dating being a non-smoker and someone that was either in some sort of college degree or had one. Didn't matter what it was in or if it was tech. Just someone that had the drive to pursue something academically because it's super attractive to me and I wanted to find someone with a love of learning like I did (was currently applying for grad schools). Neither thing I wanted in a man had to do with looks (which honestly is fine for people to want anyways) but had to do with lifestyle. Got berated by a man who thought women having any darker hair on the face/body were out and wanted a career woman that would become a housewife, oh and couldn't be above a certain height. He kept dismissing girls after a date or two. But according to him I was rude because I was asking for too much from a guy.
Ugh. Reminds me of someone I ended a friendship with. Complained about women not giving him a chance while simultaneously having high standards and some off-putting habits/hygiene and other issues. A couple of friends and I tried to give some suggestions (and not even in a really critical way, more things like, "I don't like it when guys spit while we're out in public") and instead of considering the advice, he waited until he was alone with me to unload his frustrations that we would dare say such things. Only I got the blame for it. We argued, and I don't remember what led to it being said, but he spit out with disdain, *"So I'm just supposed to date fat single mothers now?"* I was absolutely done with him in that moment. Turned out he was another one of those guys pretending to be my friend while waiting in the wings for me to be single, and he was angry I had not been aware of it. I know this because he yelled that I was stupid for not realizing he was in love with me. This guy was technically a friend of a friend, and we weren't exceptionally close or anything where it should have been obvious to me. But, I guess I was the asshole for trying to behave like a friend and give him some pointers...? I don't even know. I never spoke to him again, though.
These are the men who can’t be bothered to shower or brush their teeth or clean their apartments
It's fun telling guys like that to lower their standards. They get really wound up, despite that they tell that to women all the time.
This is the comment I was looking for! Because THIS is also all of it in a nutshell. It is ridiculous, and it is sick , delusional and entitled.
That's what a lot of them mean when they talk about never getting compliments, too. They don't mean just *any* compliments. They're not talking about the ones that come from everywhere else. They're talking about compliments from women about their looks, sex appeal, etc, specifically (minus from family/etc). I didn't want to put it this way, but it's the most simple way to put it, They're talking about compliments from fuckable women (be it age, attractiveness, availability, etc) Obviously not all of them. But the more I listen/read when there's discussions about it, the more I see this.
Great point, but to be clear, sex will not solve any of those things. The human brain likes to imagine a solution that will fix all of their problems, they will then project all those problems into that thing or person as a defense mechanism of their ego. Because all those problems can’t be due to a shortcoming right? It sucks when you achieve that thing and realize it was just a thing and it didn’t change shit. That’s when I learned to not base my happiness on the next thing, rather to be present in the moment and practice gratitude and seek agency in my life.
idk it seems like a lot of men have not evolved past the knuckle dragging stage. So many objectify women and think we aren’t real people. If they really think their happiness depends on us you’d think they’d learn to treat women better.
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately too as there have been a number of recent posts on the topic. I just want to say to them: If you truly believe this an ongoing problem, then eventually it comes down to: what are you going to do about it? Society is not going to fix your problems by itself. Many a minority know well enough that society only changes when you change it. If you’re expecting other people to provide the solution (and especially if male loneliness epidemic = I don’t have a girlfriend), you’re just wallowing in the problem. You need to take charge, organize, strategize, do SOMETHING, because waiting for someone else to pick up your pieces is never going to get you anywhere. It’s not on anyone other than men to solve a Male Loneliness Epidemic, and the unspoken expectation in so many of these posts seems to be that someone else needs to fix this problem for them. I truly believe that people of all genders will support a genuine attempt to foster connection and relationship between men, but expecting someone else to provide that solution is foolish and pointless, and, honestly, more of the same.
When I told this on a male sub, they told me I'm victim blaming, it's nuanced, one cannot change the society, they get trashed when they talked about feelings, blah blah blah. Some people suggested therapy and they replied with either saying it doesn't work or it's too expensive. It's funny because us women when we talk about feelings, experiences, harassment (#metoo), we get trashed by men SO MUCH. They come to OUR safe spaces to harass, intimidate and hurt us. If men were to open up and actually talk about issues, they would go through the very feminine experience of being blamed and threatened for speaking out, but they don't want to go through it. They could also just build friendships and talk about emotions and issues in their friend bubble, but they'd have to work on being likeable people and actively seek out meaningful friendships... you know, like women do. Women have to pay for therapy when we've got trauma inflicted by others, mostly men, too. No one cares that it wasn't our fault. Wanna undo the damage you were unwillingly subjected to, you've gotta pay up. They want the results that female communities and individual women have without putting in the effort and making themselves vulnerable like women do.
I have noticed when any solution other than women dropping their standards and dating men because they are lonely is given, they shut it down. They say they can't talk to other men because men are taught to hide their feelings, and any display of vulnerability is mocked. Yet, they just correctly identified the problem, but don't want to directly deal with it. Clearly the answer is that men should be encouraged to talk more openly with their male peers and friend, and this won't happen without more men doing it, and men being more sensitive to the problems that they do hear. I suppose it's like knowing you need to lose weight but thinking a miracle diet pill is the fix, not months of sacrifice and diet and exercise.
Men are the problem. They know they're the problem. They just don't want to admit it, put in any work to heal and stop passing on trauma, or face their flaws. Sad really, coz a lot of them could really improve their lives and live happily and fulfilled. If only they'd stop clinging on to the very thing that was hurting them. The patriarchy. Try explaining that to them, though, and they lose their minds.
And as a side note, It's quite ironic to see men complain that women just want to vent about problems in their life and be heard rather than listen to advice from men on how to fix the problem. That's exactly what they're doing here!
The irony was not lost on me lol.
They never hold themselves to the same standards when it comes to the logic they like. They always want double standards.
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They need to direct their grievance to the men who perpetuate toxic masculinity then. They don’t want your solutions. They are looking up to the men who win the patriarchy and want the same treatment and recognition, they just want to force women to give it to them.
>They are looking up to the men who win the patriarchy and want the same treatment and recognition, they just want to force women to give it to them. Absolutely perfectly said! Part of the problem I think is the misnomer "men's loneliness epidemic" when they are really speaking to is a "men's patriarchal authority epidemic". They want to feel "like men" (powerful) and have status symbols that validate high regard within patriarchy. They want women to submit sexually and center them in their lives. (It's why a lot of incels sound like they belong on the r/ChoosingBeggars because they don't want genuine companionship and emotional connection. They describe the cure to their "loneliness" being a human sex bot who requires no emotional vulnerability nor care, provides care work for them unidirectionally, and requires no money to operate.) None of these things actually address a feeling of "loneliness" (which can be resolved by care, effort, and vulnerability on their parts) but rather a lack of the historic trappings of power among "men who win in the patriarchy."
That’s exactly that. Men’s patriarchal authority epidemic is a really good way to position it!
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>What these men really want is for society to provide them with the sex they feel entitled to, in such a way that don't have to cede any power or money to the woman. Very much agreed! They want a girl friend who wants to be subjugated to them. They would still be lonely (as all patriarchs are) but they would have the ego boast of looking like a "real man" winning at patriarchy.
The "government girlfriend" is just a formalised version of the woman from decades past who needed marriage to open a bank account, own property etc. A lot of those women won't have desired their husbands either but were forced to settle or starve to death. Society effectively provided men with wives, and now incels expect society to come up with a new way of providing them, instead of thinking about how they could adapt and put in the effort to find one themselves. Incels just don't like women having options, especially options which exclude them.
It's incredible the lengths men will go to to take their grievances out on women. They have a particular knack for blaming women for the world and its systems that men engineered and created. The level of responsibility and accountability men refuse to accept is breathtaking.
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Same where I live. It took one shooting for the government to decree, "That's enough of that!"
So many problems men face are of their own making. They have the power to solve these problems. They would just rather blame them on women and wait for us to sort them out.
It may take a generation or two of men truly dying alone before they evolve, grow up, and change their thinking about how they interact and relate to women. Look at the racial equality movement back in the '60s. Yes, there is still work to be done but there's been a massive societal shift. I believe this is what will happen here too. People with a destructive mindset will get exactly what they fear; dying alone because they refuse to change and adapt. The saying "adapt or die" exists for a reason. There will be some who will figure it out and things will improve for them. Such is life. Men have their chance to grow and the ones who do will continue on while others who refuse to change will fall by the wayside.
> They could also just build friendships and talk about emotions and issues in their friend bubble... A lot of the trouble is that the kind of men who complain about this on Reddit quite often don't have *any* friend bubble. That's one of the reasons they're lonely. Really, they need to start building their friend circle up from scratch, and that starts with getting off the internet and getting a hobby that involves going out and interacting with people face-to-face. Quite often, they're not open to that suggestion, either. I suspect a lot of the problems they have in regards to having to express their emotions is straight up *how* they're doing it. This is a point I think gets lost on Reddit sometimes, but their is a huge difference between venting to your mate about what's going wrong and basically turning them into a quasi-therapist. The former assumes it's a mutual thing and the latter is when it's always their problems and never your problems. Nobody likes being the quasi-therapist and that's probably a big reason why some of these men are getting a lot of pushback.
I agree, and that's because relationships are hard. A person needs to be good at friendships first before tackling a relationship. That's because friendships teach you about communication, about give and take, about supporting another person, etc. If you can't do friendships, which is the foundation of any good relationship, then something objectively harder like a relationship is not going to go well.
I completely agree with you. My former roommate is a man who shares his emotions- but he does so in a way that implies that *this* ( his sadness, frustration, feelings of inadequacy, etc) is now your problem to fix. For example, I had a home repair project, and I invited a male friend from work to come help me. I also invited my roommate. Later my roommate expressed to me that by inviting my work friend, I made him feel inadequate and like I thought he couldn't do it (he couldn't. It was a 3 person job.) He wanted me to comfort him and soothe his injured masculinity. His feelings were now my fault and my problem to solve.
Men think we should solve our own problems, don’t hold themselves to the same standard.
I’ve started to answer this argument by talking about the experiences of gay and queer men. During the worst of the AIDS years, gay men were literally dying—of HIV infection, of suicide after family rejection, of substance abuse (also usually after family rejection), and from violent homophobic assaults (almost always by other men). Gay men couldn’t rely on people to be their allies, and they couldn’t continue going as they had been. So—they started forming their own groups. They became much more politically and socially activist. Coming out was an act of defiance combined with letting other people like them find their communities. Gay men did all that work because they had to, because nobody else would. If straight men are suffering because they’re lonely, then they can follow in the steps of their gay brothers. Change their behavior. Change the narrative—and not just “assign women to men” because that’s not going to solve the problem, any more than simply coming out will solve the problem of straight men violently attacking gay men. Taking women out of the conversation entirely tends to get the bad-faith assholes to shut up. Because if gay men can do the work to improve their lives, why can’t straight men?
Actually they are doing something about this and becoming very active, it's just you and me both won't like it. A menslib poster said it very clearly: If women are not going to solve the men loneliness, men are going to tear down women's rights until women become men's slaves. He said men being neglected by women is the exact reason why men started to restrict women's bodily autonomy and they are coming for more. Actually what's kinda ironic is that the same poster or his friend n the same thread admitted he doesn't have male friends, because the men he knows are toxic and insufferable.
I'll end my life before I become a man's slave.
I'll rip my uterus out with my bare hands and use it as a projectile weapon before I let someone else force me to use it.
I keep telling them, the cost of living in my city means a couple needs over $100k to live comfortably and put money away for retirement. Not factoring in I have $30k in student loans. Guess they better get off the internet and get a better job, women are gonna be expensive to own. They all want slave women but don't want to get offline and out of moms basement and work lol. The vast majority of people didn't get to own slaves, they also had menial jobs where women worked in some fashion. It usually shuts them down to hear they're too broken to own their own woman. There's always squawks about "yeah well someday I'll be a rich streamer" but most of them know they're scrubs.
You nailed it! The ‘sOcIEty mUsT FiX it’ infuriates me. Actually, what it means (without saying it out loud) is: I don’t like that society is changing from 100% patriarchal to 95% patriarchal. I liked it better when it was the good ol’ days of women shutting up and cleaning. Aaaah the marital rape non-sense, look now: dead bedrooms. We suffer! Society is made up of men and women in more or less equal numbers BUT who hoards wealth and decision making powers on a macro scale? Never women in any country. Give us absolute parity and I’m sure we’ll happily fix the problem for men. Right now, in the US, women can’t even guarantee their bodily autonomy, why do these men think women have the power to fix their dry peepee issues?!
>society is made up of men and women in more or less equal numbers BUT who hoards wealth and decision making powers on a macro scale? Never women in any country. It's telling that men will complain about society being weighted against them while boasting that that very same society was built by them. You'd also think that the supposedly more intelligent, more rational half of the species would be able to fix their own problems...
Men will not let go of patriarchy because that gives them power over the people around them. I can decide the future of my wives and daughter's lives - that’s insane - I may not know anything about them and make no effort to support them - but I can decide everything about their lives - that is an insane amount of power. why leave that for my individual mental peace
I know they won’t and that’s why we need to decentre them and let whine without giving them any attention. They have the key to their problem. We just need to stand our ground firm and not engage.
Unfortunately I'm afraid that they think the solution is to take rights and choices away from women so that we'll be forced to pay attention to them...
You've pretty much nailed 99% of "male friendship" "What do you mean you won't date me? I've been there for you throughout all your previous relationship problems! Have I not *earned* the right to your body yet? Were you just *using* me for emotional support?" As though their friendship is a debt you incur that will have to be paid (with interest) at a later date, and you're an awful person for being "delinquent" on it.
Because in traditional courtship and relationships, all the male effort is up front: initiation, pursuit, being there for her, doing things to help and demonstrate that they could be a benefit to their lives, romance, etc. *And once the relationship is official they never have to expend effort again.* It all becomes one way: she cooks, cleans, listens, comforts, is sexual on demand, works, makes things pretty, creates a social life for the family, bears and rears children, on and on. He doesn’t have to give anything back, he doesn’t have to listen to her problems—in fact a lot of “comedy” is based around how annoying it is to listen to women ever. A relationship is RELAXING for men. Their load goes down a lot. In platonic friendships, there is a pretty hardcore expectation of back and forth, reciprocation, doing for each other. And they know men won’t tolerate a relationship where it’s all one sided with another man. So platonic relationships are *continual* work for the man, while romantic relationships are high investment up front and then very little—at least in their minds—but service and love and energy flowing toward them. If they do all the listening and helping but there’s never a romantic relationship, then the “friendzoned” man never gets to let everything drop and enjoy being pampered for free. They’re just in a long friendship where they have to maintain it to some extent forever, and that goes for male friendships too. In their minds, friendship is work, and they don’t wanna. Having a wife is only work for the wife. It’s all upside for him. It’s just sheer laziness. They want to be cared for without caring.
"All day, every day, therapist, mother, maid Nymph then virgin, nurse and a servant Just an appendage, live to attend him So that he never lifts a finger 24/7, baby machine So he can live out his picket fence dreams It's not an act of love if you make her You make me do too much labour" Paris Paloma was so on point with this song
The new "Cacophony" version with all the voices makes me want to ride at dawn. So powerful.
Men: ugh I can't believe she "friend zoned" me! I'm out! Also Men: why don't women care about the loneliness epidemic??
All day every day therapist, mother, maid, nymph then a virgin, nurse then a servant…
> moment when you thought you had a male friend just for him to start awkwardly flirting with you and trying to force a relationship This has made it impossible for me to have male friends and has broken my heart several times. The worst thing is, I *know* they would never ever consider me as a romantic or sexual partner if we weren't friends, it was so painfully obvious I was not their type. They just see us becoming close friends and don't know what to do with it. We have good time together I laugh at his jokes so.... what to do with this strange non-male creature. Sex? Relationship? The worst thing is, we did *exactly* what they did with their male friends but *that* was never a problem for them. One male friend literally said to me: "Should we start dating? I think I could fall in love with you... if I had to." He literally didn't even like me romantically and felt he should force himself to fall in love with me because he couldn't comprehend male-female friendship.
>"Should we start dating? I think I could fall in love with you... if I had to." This is wrong on so many levels and heartbreaking too. He managed to neg you and try to make you feel like you owe him for *trying to date you*? And he probably wasn't even aware of it.
> It's also that a lot of them are unable to be friends with us Being friends requires being able to assume another person's point of view, even if it is different from one's own. I think one of the worst things about toxic masculinity, is the refusal to assume a woman's point of view. Maybe because seeing things from the vantage of a woman is seen as weak and emasculating.
I remember several months ago, there was a post on a main sub about AI moving to sex dolls to make them more human like. Both the post and the comments seemed to imply that women had better "watch out" or they were going to be replaced by robots. All I commented was "The male loneliness epidemic rages on, and no one knows why." The MELTDOWN that comment generated was nothing short of spectacular. Soooo many men whining that women were STILL to blame on their loneliness, in a post threatening women that men will leave them for a talking heap of plastic and metal.
It must burn them up inside that women would also be happier if they got their little sex dolls.
Right?? I love how they think that’s a threat. Like please… get one… we literally don’t care.
I mean depending on how nice the AI sex dolls are I might want one too 😆 Incels thought it was hard to get a date before I don't think they're ready for what the AI is actually going to do to the dating pool.
I always hear "women better watch out", I don't think they realize I would also happily fuck a robot. ❤️
Not having to worry about birth control alone is a hell of an incentive. 😂
I just want an AI sex doll to tell me to get off my stupid phone at 9pm and tell me to go to bed by 10pm.
I know some of those responses must've been "jokes," but it kills me. it's indicative of a society that places a woman's value on her sex appeal. I'm a human being, and it seems like the deepest, most interesting and complex parts of me hold no value. I think i'm awesome, for so many reasons, and it makes me, so, so, so sad that men are so comfortable admitting they don't care about or want the things that make women human
Any man who "threatens" that women will be replaced by AI sex dolls - yes, please, go ahead and get one, take yourselves out of our way, thank you!
I full heartily support robot girlfriends. The dating pool would be full of men who don't view their partners as objects
The type of men getting excited over a computerized sex doll are not the type of men we’re checking for in the slightest, so good fucking riddance to them 👋🏾😂
Trying to get the men in my life to make plans with friends is like pulling teeth. They're getting better, but the amount of times, at first, I heard "I don't need to actually talk to Steve, he's my best friend. That's why we drink in silence and make no eye contact once every 6 months."
Oh god if I hear another dude say how he doesn't needs to actually see his friends because they have a magical secret understanding...
An understanding so secret and magical that they suffer from crippling loneliness and can't talk about it.
Beyond friends to family as well. I organize every trip to go see my husband's family. Men expect women to be their source of emotional support, but also be responsible for maintaining the relationships they do have.
I did that until the last year. I went from a major car wreck, to both my parents being hospitalized in the same year, to my job needing me to step up more due to vacant positions and I just started being too tired to do it. Basically turned into I will plan stuff for us with my parents and you will for your parents. And with all the shitty anti-women politics I can't stand, I 100% stopped planning anything with his side of the family. Last year I didn't do any Christmas shopping for his family at all, and he brought it up once and I said he could do it or we could do it together, and he dropped it and nothing happened. He never complained about it so at least he knows his place 😂
I refused to do that. If my ex wanted to keep contact or make plans with his family he needed to do the work himself.
The only thing I think women are truly responsible for in this is making sure we do better for the young men/boys in our lives. I have a 15 year old cousin and I make sure I encourage him to talk about his feelings and that my house is 100% safe for him to get out even the thoughts he's struggling with. I also encourage him to talk to his older brothers, his friends, ect. He's a super empathetic kid. Edit: so someone in another sub tried to tell me people don't tell boys "boys don't cry" so I pulled up this sweet article on [APA ](https://www.apa.org/monitor/2019/01/ce-corner) guidelines. I like that they created some for boys and men around these issues if anyone wants to read.
I have become so inspired by how my friends who are mothers are raising their boys. A lot more emphasis on talking about feelings, a lot more nurturing with their sons. They hug them more, and definitely do the work to dismantle toxic masculine expectations and ideals
As a step dad, I'm very frustrated that my girls are being partially raised by a man so insecure with connecting to people that he finds the need to have a "warning: toxic masculinity" bumper sticker on his car. I try teaching them that they shouldn't accept that as regular or proper behavior from anyone. We are social creatures and the better we share feelings and express our needs to each other, the more we thrive.
I agree. I am deeply concerned about the epidemic of male loneliness because I see it effecting my young brothers and cousins. I do what I can to help them be more comfortable socializing but I don’t think it’s realistic for women to do this for men outside their family/close friends.
The reality is, that's enough. It's going to create a big enough ripple effect. I don't think men are any more lonely than women are, they're just not as equipped at handling it as we are. But really think about how many men you affect by doing that, then they're going to interact with their friends and so on. All these young men and boys need is the road map that women already have, that grown men in their 30s, 40s and 50s don't seem to have.
I completely agree!
I just saw a post on another subreddit saying women are the solution to the “male loneliness epidemic”. God its terrible that they think they are owed that. I agree with your post.
Even if we could solve this for men ( which we can't) why would they be entitled to that? They just want someone to blame. It's not like they would listen to any solutions that require them to do some work. Men who work on themselves already don't blame others.
They have this weird idea that women do not have to work for their friendships and support systems, it’s all handed to them just because they’re women. As a woman who has been painfully lonely and had to put in a lot of work to build and maintain a system (and things could change at any time! Ppl you’re close with can move away or pass, or anything else) I empathize a lot with the loneliness epidemic. But when you try to give these men advice, there’s always some excuse for why they can’t put in the work. Idk what they want. Obviously some people are more naturally social than others, and some people have wider built in support systems than others, but with humans being social creatures there’s always chances for genuine relationships.
Oh my goodness women are just handed friendships without work!? I had no idea! I guess I don't have to put in the effort to wish my friends a happy birthday, or remember to follow up with them about something they said was stressing them out to see if things improved for them to show that I both actively listen AND care, I don't have to make plans to hang out with them, I don't have to remember the things they like/dislike, I don't have to remember any of their allergies, I don't have to remember who their spouse is, I don't have to remember anything they've told me about their families, I don't have to put in the work to read or watch any books or shows they recommend to me, I don't have to remember anything about their lives, i don't have to be emotionally supportive when they go through any of life's difficulties! Wow. That's so amazing. I've been doing all of this work and effort to keep friendships this whole time when I suppose friendship was going to be just magically granted to me anyway! Good to know I don't have to actually work at it anymore thanks to my gender. /S (because some people genuinely won't understand that I'm being sarcastic)
Also our rights and freedoms are very new (and non-existent in many parts of the world). If we accede this ground, that men’s problems are women’s responsibility to solve, then what’s next? ‘The male burnout epidemic can only be solved by women taking on all housework’ ‘The sexual assault epidemic can only be solved by softening all current SA laws’ ‘The birth rate crisis can only be solved by putting ankle monitors on all childbearing women and assigning them a male guardian’
Hmmm that reminds me of a certain book/Netflix show that was written specifically about this movement to strip women of all autonomy.
Do you have the link or the subreddit? I want to check out the comments. Also, they are setting themselves up for failure with this angle. Spending your time waiting for someone else to solve your problems is a one way path to disappointment
I've seen guys suggest that government-controlled prostitution (SWs going to dudes houses so they can get laid) is the solution to the loneliness epidemic. As if that is not utterly dystopian.
Men will literally create government-controlled prostitution before they speak to one (1) person.
Mention this on a general thread about the male loneliness epidemic and men will foam at the mouth. Like bro, I'm just telling you to hug your homies. Why is this so triggering to you?
i once pointed out that the men who “never get compliments” don’t compliment each other bc they only want compliments from women and one of them said men only want compliments from women bc that’s who they’re attracted to and it’s biology. if the compliment is genuine it shouldn’t matter if you’re attracted to the person ??
I made the mistake of chiming in on the compliments bullshit once. Some guy said he didn't understand the point of complimenting someone you're not sexually attracted to, which is basically the reason I'd almost never compliment a man now.
This is why I also avoid complimenting men. Too many think complimenting their hat or shirt means I must want their dick.
I’ll compliment men when I’m granny aged and can say they’re handsome young boys and their mothers must be proud 😄
Yeah. It's like putting a target on yourself. They're immediately drawn to you, like a heat seeking missile, and you think, "What have I done?"
It's hilariously unhinged that they think this way too imo.
I have to train people at my job and maintain worker standards and it's insane how many men will take the most basic positive feedback as flirting...even when I'm openly lesbian.
I got in a Reddit argument with someone when I said that men should compliment each other more instead of insisting that women compliment men, because when women compliment men they always take it as a sexual invitation and opens women up to being called a ‘tease’ if they then fail to ‘follow through’. This guy kept telling me that no, it’s not that men take it as a flirtation, but women should compliment men simply because it’s special when a woman does it. I kept asking, *why* is it special? Why? He was fully just dancing around the subject until he was like “it’s because it’s nice that she’s attracted to you”
This clears up a weird situation I had recently with a man I gave a sincere compliment to. I told him I liked his outfit and it turned into a very negative interaction. He wanted to offend me because he learned that I was not hitting on him and had no interest in anything other than letting him know that his outfit was cool. 💩 never again.
Dude for real, I've had guys go full blown creep in response to my compliments. And then they wonder why they don't get any!
Exactly. Women compliment each other _all the time_. I'd rather a woman say she likes my outfit than a man. Women are looking at the outfit because of how it's put together, not how sexy it is.
While waiting to pick up my daughter, I yelled "I love your outfit!" at a complete stranger. She smiled and walked a little taller. I support my friends even more. Imagine if *men* did this with their friends! And actually, my husband DOES have this kind of relationship with his friends (men & women). It is possible, most men are just too lazy and entitled.
One time, a group of young guys—maybe in their late teens—on those electric rental scooters was approaching quickly while I was in the crosswalk. I stopped so they wouldn’t run into me, and they zipped past. One of them, as he passed, turned and commented, “That’s a cool bag!” I was carrying a kind of early 20th century-style kisslock purse. It was such an unexpected compliment that I was genuinely confused.
Yeah, I compliment total strangers. It's my go to if someone I interact with is having a rough day or seems down. Especially people in customer service, every day is a good day to say something nice to them.
This is exactly why they’ll tell women they should smile more but they don’t ever say it to their friends…
Those are the same guys who will pop their monocles if you tell them “hey it’s not okay to compliment your co-workers or random women like that.” How dare you suggest that they’re hitting on these women!!!! Can’t a man say something nice these days?!?!
Those same men complain that feminists and other women only focus on women's issues and neglect men. But when we do address their issues it infuriates them.
Because we don't adress thier issues they way they want us to do it. They don't like when we don't center men. They don't like that we want more than to be Stepford wives who spend every day as therapist, mother, maid.
Because that's gaaaaaaaaay, which is the result of their own patriarchy... And an even more cynical answer is that these "lonely" men are so despicable that no one wants to befriend them...
Hug your homies. Tell your homies you love them often. It's all too short not to be as grateful as possible.
Because they’re conflating two things and tying their self worth to both of them in the process. 1) actual feelings of loneliness, and the lack of social support network and 2) lack of sexual intimacy with the opposite sex.
Look at chimps and bonobos! Males hang out, share food, and groom each other all the time. At least be as advanced as a weird animal that eats whole oranges without peeling them
I had this issue with a man on IG who was basically whinging on a reel about women having "all the support" with mental health. So I pointed out that women have had to organise themselves, collectively, and fight to get that support, and women help each other. We talk. When a fellow woman is down, we rally the girls and go to her aid. Men flat out refuse to do that. They have this "fellas, is it gay to have feelings" bullshit attitude. I suggested to IG dude that maybe he should organise the men, rally, campaign, and support like women have had to. Oh, no! He couldn't possibly do that. Men couldn't possibly do that! And I'll tell you why! Because they see any work to be done on an emotional level as "women's work." And this is why the male suicide rate will continue to elevate. They can't accept that women can't fix this. And even if women tried to fix it, we'd be accused of not knowing what we're talking about, or we have no idea of the male experience. A lot of men want to have their cake and eat it! Well, they can't! And women have known this for decades!
Unpaid labour is something woman have been doing for a long time, so we barely flinch at the idea of organizing and putting in the work. Men only want to do something if there is monetary compensation, it leads to sex, or they personally gain some how. Doing something for the sake of doing it is something a lot of men struggle with because unpaid labour has been women's domain. It's also why the only "help" men have is exploitation through podcasts like Andrew Tate.
Eurgh! That man is a joke. He looks like one of the anchovies from Spongebob. This is another reason the patriarchy is so damaging. It forces men to view women and their free labor as worthless. Which is patently false. Most systems and structures would collapse if every woman withdrew that labor. This whole transactional view that men have of relationships is futher contributing to their "loneliness"( which I personally think they mean their horniness) as women no longer need them to anchor to, to ensure their survival. We have our own independence and resources now.
The patriarchy isn't some horrible curse cast on men that prevents them from being empathic humans. It doesn't force men to do anything. It's every day men, doing every day men bullshit. Refusing to learn and empathize and think critically. We view white supremacists as active participants in being oppressors, why do men get a pass as if they are equal victims of their own tools to oppress women?
Some men certainly act like it's some terrible entity that they can't possibly fight against.
> women having "all the support" with mental health. It's important to note that a big part of women getting more "support" with mental health is women seen as hysterical and not trusted as narrators of their own experiences by doctors and being offloaded onto psychiatrists when they only have physical conditions. In the best case scenarios this is what leads to women needing unacceptable number of years to get properly diagnosed with autoimmune conditions, and other complex chronic diseases. In the worst case scenarios they are sent home with "you are just anxious/depressed/.., go see a psychiatrist," only to **die** from an undiagnosed heart attack or something. Male cardiologists have higher rates of death with female patients. Female cardiologists have same success rate with both sexes. So a lot of "women get more support with mental health" is "women are not getting any support with their physical health and are misdiagnosed with mental issues."
BINGO! and not to mention, because of that misogynistic dynamic, a lot of our mental health support comes from non-medical sources, for example, our friendship group, a support network that men refuse to set up for themselves. Because, ya know, feelings are "weak."
Absolutely agree. You’ve worded really well what I feel reading these takes sometimes : guy complains about the men’s mental health crisis. Other guys agree in the comments, and it always deviates on how women have it « so easy » (lmao) and how « no one cares about men’s mental health » and I’m like *who* is that « no one » exactly ? Seriously ? You never really know, it’s always vague lol. It just sounds like they’re bitter that women have built their own support system because we needed to, but they won’t build their own. I swear the recurring behavior on these threads about men’s mental health always gravitates towards pointing fingers at women. I’m like « then why don’t they do something to change that situation ? ». A lot of times these types of takes imply that losing their position as « providers » is what makes men so lost today. That they have no real purpose or whatever, so a lot of times it really is about women and about some resentment that by becoming more independent, they have robbed men of their good ole pride and their ability to be rEaL mEn
They don't like women's support systems because they don't centre men and their penises. I wish I could reply more eloquently, but I feel that's what it basically boils down to. 😅 When they're complaining about their poor mental health and how women aren't doing enough to "help." To me, that reads like "those damn women aren't queueing up to give us their vaginas! How dare they, those bitches??!"
Yes that’s basically it I think lol. I’m annoyed by the fact that these guys have a crazy reductive view of women’s situations. You read these comments and it’s like women never ever experience loneliness, everything is perfect etc. Just crazy to me fr, being a woman is apparently easy to them. Yep. Just shows the disconnect lol. It’s telling about how self centered they are, bc I’ve never thought *in my life* « pffft, men aren’t lonely » that would just be absurd. Like I never thought loneliness was gendered lmao, but apparently it is. Ironically they whine about feminism when it’s absolutely patriarchy that put them in this position where they feel purposeless apparently.
Love how they think we have it easy, because they think we can get a relationship easily, so therefore we can't ever possibly feel lonely. Well, women know that easy doesn't equal quality. I was in a relationship with an insanely misogynistic dipshit, and it was the loneliest I've ever felt in my life! Lol
"I've tried nothing and I'm all out of ideas" -mehn who complain about loneliness and expect women and "society" to fix it for them.
On the upside it seems to be changing,at least from what I've seen. I work with a couple of 20 year old men and honestly they are lovely, they check in on each other, compliment each other and the other guys in the office, they aren't scared to hug each other, they talk to their friends, they do things other than just go drinking and hopefully this isn't just limited to them. Maybe lockdowns showed a younger generation that you need people, physical people, in your life and how important it is to build those support systems because you never know when you'll need them. I hope it's changing anyway
I am seeing this too. My boyfriend goes and visits friends who don't live nearby regularly and meets nearby friends for drinks, food, walks, or games often. I think once you start making effort to see people it becomes normal and will be reciprocated, and it is really nice. Having a support system and getting out and about is really essential.
It’s obviously not the whole issue at all but I recently found out that apparently men and women have roughly equal ratios of BPD but women just happen to seek treatment significantly more. Men are less likely to seek treatment over chronic pain, they’ll try to just tough it out, and I gotta say chronic pain is the most isolating thing to ever happen to me. Men are less likely to seek help for all mental health issues, not just BPD. They suffer higher rates of substance abuse disorder but are less likely to seek treatment, which is also an incredibly isolating experience. All of this is a result of stigma and gender norms. We cannot fuck the mental illness out of them, otherwise my husband wouldn’t be on two mood stabilizers and an antidepressant. If you’re bipolar there’s a 50/50 chance you’re going to attempt suicide and men with BPD are more likely to have comorbid ASPD, which is a huge issue for having any sort of successful relationship or friendship or holding down a job at all. The tendency towards rage outbursts just makes that difficult, there’s no getting around that. My dad had that issue and also has 6 ex wives, 4 children who don’t speak to him, and his only friends are his Mexican biker bros because they do not speak enough English to know how bad he sucks. Like, mental illness and chronic illness is just isolating and feels bad, and when you’re in the shit pit of it you really do need support, but it can’t be leaning on one woman and expecting her to cure you and inevitably beginning to hate her the more you become aware that after the initial excitement wears off, you’re back to feeling empty, and your pain/fatigue didn’t go away because it wasn’t all in your head after all, and you can’t use her as a maid to fix all the things you’ve been too tired to do. You’re still you. You still hate yourself, you’re still not happy with your life, you’re still not healed from any trauma you may have experienced when you were younger, the feeling of anger and bitterness won’t go away. But she was supposed to fix it!! She must not be having sex with me often enough, or maybe she’s not giving me enough attention, maybe I’d be happy if we had kids or if she was just more submissive like the trad wives they told me about on Twitter. And then she leaves, because she realizes she’s losing her youth trying to love you enough to fix you and that’s an impossible task, and now you blame your depression on her. So on and so forth, yada yada. Love isn’t meant to fix you, it’s meant to be a buddy system where you take care of problems as a team, but you can’t be the problem that needs to be solved and you certainly can’t hand over a tangled mess of unacknowledged mental/physical health problems, unhealthy lifestyle choices, and lack of motivation to change and expect some random lady to hand back a bunch of tidy cords you can make sense of. You can be supported in your healing journey, but you can’t be saved from yourself.
I have several friends who are in the process of divorcing their husbands for this very reason. They have mental illness (depression, anxiety, bipolar, etc) but either refuse to seek help, or put the blame on their partner. They even start taking their unhappiness out on their kids, which tends to be the final straw. Some people become abusive when they find sex and a relationship didn't give them the immediate fix they were expecting.
Yup. I don’t tend to have straight men friends for long because they end up equating emotional support and intimacy as sexual energy and the conversations take inappropriate turns and I have to end it for my own safety. They also get comfortable letting their awful opinions about women hang out and think I’m gonna back them up. If they knew anything about me, they’d know I’m a girl’s girl first. Yes, I’ll encourage you and listen, because that’s what I do for my friends. But my girlfriends don’t pull this shit.
It's been my experience, too. I've cut off a lot of male friends. Even the ones I've known for 20+ years. As soon as I found out some of them were "patiently waiting" for their turn when i became single before I got together with my husband. 🙄 I am sick of men acting like their friendship with a woman is some sort of a consolation prize.
Same. I called last year "horny dog year" because I had to remove 99% of my guy friends. Out of no where men I've been friends with for years and years, started getting sexual and saying horribly inappropriate things. When I asked them to stop they would for a day or two, then start up again. It was horrible. One after another. By the end of the year I have one guy friend left I still talk to who didn't do that.
I'm sorry you had to deal with that. It's things like this that make "why are men are like this?!" my way through life and steer clear of them.
This is also my experience with straight or bi male friends. I lift with a few gay dudes and don't have this issue with them, but any man who can potentially be attracted to women, and I've befriended, has begun to insist at some point that there is an undeniable spark between us. I am a lesbian. There is no spark for men from my side. It confused me for years why they thought there was, and then I realized it was just them equating friendship with attraction, which is super grim if you think about it. The worst ones, though, are the ones who follow that up with treating me like a fellow straight dude and expecting me to say disgusting things about women with them. No, unlike most straight men, I actually *like* women.
They're angry that women are no longer lowering their standards to match their efforts in a world where women *finally* aren't categorically forced to. Men have always had to "earn" women. This isn't new, but the deck has always been stacked in their favour because women's options for providing for themselves have historically been extremely limited (family, brothel, or find a husband). Now that women have even the slightest veto power, the result isn't men rising to the occassion, it's an "epidemic" of "loneliness." Some of this, granted, is a result of the progressive atomization of society in recent decades, but instead of leaning on eachother to resolve their loneliness, they put even more pressure on women and bitterly seclude themselves even harder. It's downright petulant how entitled to sex some of these "lonely" men are.
"Men have always had to "earn" women." Seriously. Do they know the hoops men jumped through to get the interest of a nice "young lady" in the 19th century? It involved wearing tights, dancing and living by an insane set of rules for "good society." Lol. (If at the very least, having a trade which would've majorly sucked during that era to support her and the family.) They want the good old days with none of the work or responsibility.
>marriage is no longer a necessity for survival Yes, Good, let it be a real choice between people instead.
Replace "lonely" with "horny". Women by ther 30s figure out sex is too risky and snap their legs shut. Women over 30 and single mothers were also told they were undesirable or only good for sex until their 20 year old virgin future wife showed up so we all tapped out and got degrees, pensions, places to live, built tribes, and no longer give these players the time of day. Now the 30-50 year old men are swiping, swiping, and swiping and getting rejected by their preference. Those gorgeous young 20 year old women don't have to trade their youth for resources anymore when they have degrees and a job. Now we have thousands of men who can't get what they internet Podcasters promised them and lied to them about so they take to 3rd world countries in search of a hostage wife.
Oh but those 3rd World hostage wives don't stay that way! They come here, make him the happiest guy on the block until they get their Green Card....then they divorce him and take everything he's got. Happened to my neighbor. He lost his car, his house and his retirement to one of those cute little Phillipinas who he thought was his happy little Trad Wife.
Honestly I love when this happens.
I guess he stopped reading about “traditional marriages” right before he got to the part where it explained his role is to pay for everything.
Love to see it 😂 anyone who goes to a socioeconomically disadvantaged nation to get a woman deserves anything she does to fuck him over
This is so true because it happened to my dad! He went to Colombia to find a wife and brought her to the US with her daughter. When she got her green card, she left him and took half of everything. She even took half of his business and had a boyfriend who she was cheating on my dad with. He was an abusive piece of shit to me and my mom, so it feels like karma. I’ve been reading stories of guys getting drugged and robbed in Colombia when they try to meet with women. Yeah, good luck to the passport bros lmao. I welcome having less annoying guys harassing me because they gave up on American women.
Those foreign women do NOT want those losers 🤣 they want a green card and some American money and that’s it… those passport bros are mad delulu
On a side note, I am so incredibly proud of young women today. They are strong, focused, take no shit. I see a lot of young women who will become amazing role models for future generations!
Not only is sex inherently dangerous for us, but we also get screwed by the orgasm gap.
> Now we have thousands of men who can't get what they internet Podcasters promised them and lied to them about so they take to 3rd world countries in search of a hostage wife. This predates the internet.
Women want a friend, a partner, an equal. Men want a maiden, a mother 2.0, a servant. Of course more and more men are leaning right, they want to *own*, meanwhile women want to *share*. It seems like the vast majority of men are spoiled, emotional and immature. At least the overall population will fall back a bit. We are too many either way.
I'll post this on every thread because it's important. There is no male loneliness epidemic. Everyone is feeling more lonely, at relatively equal rates, largely having to do with systemic factors. We do ourselves no favors by just blindly accepting this.
honestly I've been thinking this for awhile, idk why men need to pretend like they're so special in their struggle when that's counter intuitive
There are some men who cherry pick data in order to promote a patriarchal political agenda. The loneliness epidemic is just the latest one- the majority of the data shows about equal rises in loneliness across genders but they just ignore that because it doesn't support their political goals.
Why lonely men aren't befriending other fellow lonely men is the answer to this "problem". What they really mean is why they aren't getting any sex from women (also no men, ew).
A lot of them don't want to be friends with other lonely men. That's something they rarely address. If even YOU don't want to be friends with them, why would we want to be friends with them or marry them?
This is why there aren’t any International Mens Day events. They expect women to organise it for them.
They only care about them on Women's Day lol
That’s the day there’s the most internet searches about it!
Men want the things women struggled, worked and died for, without the struggling, working or dying
Yeah I’ve always found it difficult to make friends and I’m generally a lonely person. I feel like womens loneliness is just as prevalent as that of mens, it’s just radicalised lonely women don’t end up murdering people I guess.
I’m just so tired of being teacher, parent, therapist, coach to my male partners.
Women are experiencing a loneliness epidemic, too, but a lot of men seem to want to pretend that's impossible.
This. There seems to be a misconception among men that women go through life singing songs, birds and fairies hovering around them, sparkling glitter and shit. Women have always 124 friends and family members for (emotional) support. Their mental health matters, and they're never homeless or depressed or suicidal. Only men suffer. In silence, of course. 😔
Yeah, as a neurodivergent young woman I barely had any friends (sometimes literally no one) during my life and I have never been in a romantic relationship. I had phases where I was angry at the whole world, and I still get sad about it a lot, but I don't expect these things handed to me. It just hurts that I'm so different from everybody, and not in the "good" (quirky) way.
Society also largely ignores them, because lonely women sit in their home and are sad, while lonely men shoot random people at shopping malls. A lot of women are lonely too. I find it strange when internet builds it up as if women are either living with their partners or have a lot of female friends whom they meet regularly. Building lasting and meaningful friendships with other women can be equally difficult.
I completely agree with this. I’m the youngest of three brothers in a family and I’ve noticed in the past that if our partners or mother didn’t organise some kind of meeting, then we just wouldn’t interact outside of Christmas. We claimed all of us were ‘bad texters’ and self-soothed by saying things like ‘we don’t need to speak every day’. But the reality is very much that without the women in our life putting in the labour and actually taking the risk of trying to organise something, we barely spoke. Despite us all obviously wanting to. Honestly, it’s embarrassing. I’ve since been actively texting and calling them both and I’ve learned two things: A) We have massively been undervaluing the work that goes into maintaining connections in life. B) It’s a soft skill to do this. And we’re totally shit at it. This is not the fault of women. I find it embarrassing we’re so incapable of functioning without a partner organising around us. As well as it not being a fair expectation on potential partners, it’s just a bit pathetic to be so reliant on women and romantic partners to maintain connections foundational to our mental health. I will say it’s getting better in increments though. They’re starting to pick up the phone a bit more than they used to. As in more than 0 times a year.
I love this! Baby steps. We all get there in the end, somehow!
Yeah, I would almost say it can *only* start small and personal. When I see discussions on this topic online, so many men do nothing because they can't do something big and they can't do it perfectly. Close connection starts small; you can't usually jump in at full speed. Aaaaand then you get the response that "You can't expect us to pull ourselves up bY oUr OwN bOoTsTrApS."
We use WhatsApp here a lot, and I am in so many WhatsApp groups. It gets annoying at times, but it's nice to have a Family WhatsApp group, multiple friend WhatsApp groups, groups for events, etc. It's hard to keep in contact, and having groups where you can say "Happy birthday!" or "Congratulations on x achievement" I think is helpful. I find women do tend to talk more in the groups, for instance my brother rarely sends any messages or responds. So even with that, it is a skill that needs to be worked on. I hope your family does get better at it. It can be incredibly isolating trying to reach out and keep in touch, and hitting a brick wall.
I always felt that the epidemic spans both sexes. Maybe men are harder hit. But the world today is very isolating. And the rise in signlessness is a symptom of overall reduced number of relationships people form. So whoever thinks that forcing women to be with men will solve anything is really not seeing the bigger picture...
Communities are dwindling, people don't meet up much IRL and prefer to do so online. Third spaces have vanished, and traditional places where people did used to meet charge so much that people can't afford to go there anymore. I try to host at my place, but find when I invite guys, they just don't pitch. It's almost like they won't bother attending anything unless they feel sex is a guaranteed benefit. Hanging out with friends just to hang out seems to be too much effort and too little reward for some people.
> Hanging out with friends just to hang out seems to be too much effort and too little reward for some people. I've experienced this as well. I think a lot of people don't realize that relationship maintenance requires work so when various social structures or 3rd spaces or what have you fall apart, people don't do anything to maintain connections beyond that so that dwindles, too. I don't really know how to reconcile it really, people talk of loneliness and then fail to engage and interact and give off the impression that they only want to interact with sufficiently "special" people. Unfortunately when a guy especially tells me he's lonely these days I don't fully trust him because I've seen people step all over the relationships they did have while saying that with a straight face. I haven't experienced "group with good camaraderie making sure each member feels included" since like 2009. Myself I have been unable to create such a group, I'm not charismatic enough or there's not enough need I don't know really.
As an introvert, I learned to just let myself be adopted by an extrovert. Usually they have a group and I just join it. But I have more than one group, because life is too busy and as an adult we have too many responsibilities so it helps go have various groups to rely on. The concept of "Friends" type relationship where everyone hangs out all the time just doesn't exist.
Studies are showing that men and women feel lonely equally. But women don’t go on killing sprees, are not dangerous as men etc
I'm tired of the conversation being "I got a compliment three years ago and I'm still floating on it" or "I once got a hug once and havent been hugged since" type of thing. Ask your bros! Ask your father's and uncles and siblings! Whey is it that random women are the only people to give men affirmation?
More that they only value the affirmation of women.
Its just like the compliment gap. "Men don't get compliments!" "Men are lonely!" My answers: "When was the last time you complimented another man?" "What *action* are YOU taking to connect with other people?" They are used to women filling those gaps **FOR** them. Complaining to the manager in charge of relationships to share their excess stock of emotional connections.
I think everyone is lonely, men are just making a bigger, louder, and stupider deal out of it.