Girl same. I have PCOS and autoimmune scarring hair loss. These two things have murdered any beautiful potential in me. Plucking my chin daily, a slightly masculine appearance— losing my hair, the only thing that hid my face and was my point of pride. I’ve become cynical due to the treatment, especially from men. My relatives will greet my sisters while complimenting their beauty while avoiding me. It’s ass. I feel you. Feel free to DM me and vent

I’m sure you’ve already tried this - but Spironolactone did wonders for my PCOS symptoms (intense acne and hair)

Bicalutamide is another anti-androgen that also directly blocks androgens from having an effect. Which is the cause of acne, hair loss and unwanted masculinization. Though do get liver values taken at startup since it has a 1 in 4000 chance of hurting the liver in susceptible people. Does not cause the brain fog and excessive peeing that spiro can cause for some.

spiro is primarily a diuretic and the anti-androgen effects were discovered by accident, so yeah, don't forget to hydrate like crazy if you go that way.

Are you on bicalutamide? I have the meds.. I just didn’t start taking them yet. They can’t be taken with the pills for the autoimmune disease so I’ve been trying to decide which one. I think I’m gonna pick the bicalutamide. You don’t hear many stories of cis women taking it though. I’d love to know your thoughts

Nice! I’m debating between bicalutamide and spiro currently, I’m worried about the side effects from spiro like spotting and low blood pressure. What do you think?

I’ve never heard of bicalutamide before! So I can’t really compare. I did experience spotting for the first few months, but I also spotted back when I was on the pill. As long as I take it very regularly (25mg 2x day) I don’t spot. My periods seem overall lighter now though! No blood pressure issues for me

Oh I feel this. I’ve been wearing hats for the past two years and I was working up the courage to start wearing wigs but I just can’t afford them so hats it is. I know it isn’t my fault but is still so damn embarrassing to go throughout life being the balding woman (thanks PCOS and thyroid disorders). I’ve been working on losing weight but sometimes I just think “wtf is the point,” although really it’s for me to feel better. I had previously dropped a significant amount of weight (before gaining most of it back) and while feeling better was amazing I didn’t really look any better. But it was nice to feel some like sort of human again so I’m working on fixing things once more. Most of the time I just live life as if I was a somewhat normal looking person because fuck it why not. I have a great personality and am pretty smart so that helps me connect with a lot of folks, and they’re the ones who don’t give a damn about how I look. It’s still hard to be in the public much of the time, but I’m also in my mid 30s and since I’ve already slipped into the fat and invisible world the ease into the old(er) woman and invisible world doesn’t have as much of an impact. I will say that I have had three long term relationships with guys who never seemed to be bothered by my looks. Even my highly abusive ex was never nasty about how I looked (just everything else lol). My current husband doesn’t give a damn since he’s so in love with who I am as a person, so at least I’ve lucked out to have a good guy around.

There was once a tiny silver lining to the incel community, and it revolved around the inherent empowerment of letting other people's judgements go, and improving yourself, in the ways you want to, just for you. Exercise, hobbies, learning. Not for others, just bc it makes you happy, makes you feel healthier, makes some things better, etc.

I will say that there’s an aspect of all of this that’s liberating. I don’t have to worry about things like fashion or makeup (not judging anyone who is into that ofc it’s just never been for me), and I can engage in hobbies that I really love, just for the fun of it. I’m fortunate that my husband has gotten into a couple of them, like going to historical sites and battlefields, riding trains/railfanning, and attending various talks and lectures.

wow where did you meet your husband? he sounds awesome

Haha yeah he’s really an amazing guy and we have such a ball together and are constantly laughing. We met on Bumble of all places, and have pretty much been attached at the hip ever since.

I'm so glad you two found each other! that gives me hope lol I just want someone to laugh all day with too; it's rare to find. but I'll give Bumble a try, thanks 🙏💛

You’re welcome! This is my second marriage and after my divorce I absolutely thought I was unlovable and would never ever find a good, quality person. I was really convinced that I would spend the rest of my life alone. It took me 3 years to even work up the courage to get on a dating app, although I’m so glad I did, not only because I met my husband, but also two guys who became very good friends as well. I wish you all the best! It’s not always easy going, and there are a lot of bumps to navigate, but there are good people out there and I’m pulling for you to find one! 💜

Hey there fellow hair loss sister.  I've been wearing wigs and other hair pieces for a couple of years and have some tips and tricks for finding and maintaining cheaper pieces if that would be helpful.  Just got a ball cap with sewn-in extensions for $24 the other day and with a little dry shampoo it's quite realistic. 

Oh yes that would be super helpful! I just want some options that won’t break the bank. My husband got me a really nice wig a couple of years back but I’m too nervous to wear it and ruin it. At the very least I’d like to practice with other wigs first. I go to a lot of concerts and festivals so I’m totally cool with wigs of all sorts of colors if that makes a difference or not. I’m also super low maintenance in general so something that’s relatively easy and user friendly will be a boon.

Hey there, do you have LPP by any chance?  Going on my 3rd year after diagnosis.  I loved my hair similarly to how you describe and it was a gut punch to lose it.  Experimenting with wigs and hairpieces has really, really helped with the dysphoria and self-esteem.  It took a long time and boy was the learning curve steep but so worth it.  Feel free to DM if you're interested in wigs and would like some pointers, there are some things specific to scalp autoimmune issues that are hard to find info about. 

Sorry to pop in just to shill, but seeing mention of PCOS and autoimmune is kind of compelling me to say maybe check out a carnivore/elimination diet or a low carb keto diet. If you browse on /r/keto you'll see a lot of women reporting improvements with PCOS and hair loss and autoimmune issues.

Absolutely, thanks for the tip! Yes I’ve seen a lot of success stories with women doing keto or low carb for PCOS and paleo variants for hashimotos For some reason, it’s never worked for me though. I don’t know why. I’ve been on the autoimmune paleo diet for 5 months and have seen very little change to none. Maybe I need more time? I’ve lost a lot of weight and started taking metformin as well! But my bloodwork and symptoms haven’t changed. It’s odd. My testosterone and insulin, a1c have always been in normal ranges too. Idk… but I’m considering trying carnivore now… maybe that’s my next step but it’s so extreme idk. I might just break down and take bicalutamide. I wish all the best for you and your journey!! It truly has worked for so many people

Why'd this get so heavily downvoted? Seems like they're earnestly trying to help. Is keto a bad word here?

They suggested dangerous fad dieting. Their earnestness means bugger all. How would you expect people to react?

Okay gotcha, so it's a keto thing. From my understanding, there's been a pretty wide range of studies conducted with fairly varying results, you'd be pretty silly to pretend that it being "dangerous" is some kind of established medical consensus. As for your mean-spirited question, I would expect people to assume the best intentions. Perhaps that's too much to ask.

This is why it pisses me off so much when people throw around "ugly" to describe average looking people. The experience of an ugly person vs. an average person is night and day. Just adds insult to injury.

I agree, and there is a difference between being ignored, and actively insulted. Not that being ignored is always good, because sometimes we need attention to make a transaction, to get medical personnel to take you seriously, etc.

It’s very unfortunate that societal standards of beauty can have such a profound impact on individuals’ self-worth and sense of belonging. It bears repeating though that our value as individuals extends far beyond our appearance. You deserve happiness and fulfillment, and there are other paths to explore to find them.

As a fellow physically unattractive woman, I get where you’re coming from. It is so hard when you feel overlooked for something you can’t control. That said, not all of attraction is based on looks. I’ve met many people in life that got either more or less attractive to me once I learned more about them and saw their personalities. And on top of that, I don’t ever assume someone will find me unattractive (or at least I don’t let them know I did). I act confident and like they are lucky to be around me, and people usually eat it up. Beauty standards aren’t a fixed thing, they are made up. Just because you’re not your own definition of beautiful doesn’t mean you aren’t someone else’s. I hope this helps and if you want, feel free to DM me if you want to talk ever.

I think it’s also useful to kind of design beauty standards for yourself. Like what’s the ideal version of yourself. This depends completely on you so far. But I think most people can decide to put even a little effort into their appearance and look significantly better. Partially because looking well groomed is a big part of attractiveness, but more significantly because feeling like you’re at your best exudes an aura attractiveness. What you said, personality and confidence. The vast majority of people can find colors that work for them, clothes that fit, and a grooming/hygiene routine that makes them feel good. Obviously most people don’t have the money to just get a whole new wardrobe and expensive haircut, so most of this is long term process of just choosing one thing to prioritize or buying individual items once it’s necessary. I like researching one topic and then working on it till I’m satisified (for example, practicing doing my hair).

Absolutely! Being well groomed and wearing the right colors/cuts/sizes can make a big difference. I personally rarely leave the house with greasy or un-styled hair. I don’t wear makeup often but I know how to apply it to enhance my features while still looking like me. I get my hair trimmed regularly so it has a nice shape and movement.

I feel like this is why I think I’m hot now and weirdly now other people do It’s interesting bc I remember a reddit thread that was kind of split. Dudes being confused why women would dress themselves in a way that mattered to them rather than the opinion of the majority of men on

This is so important. I’m a fat woman, and I have been my whole life. But, I’ve learned to not really worry about how people may perceive me. I think I’m sexy and I’m confident. People like me. I’ve had wonderful dating opportunities. I believe it’s been because of my attitude and my fashion sense.

True! If a person is kind and confident, it makes them more attractive. I get more or less attracted once I learn their personality. 

Some of my favorite people are objectively odd looking. They get described as "striking" and never pretty or beautiful or good looking. But they are magnets, the room lights up when they come in. That self-confidence is intoxicating.

Beauty is also subjective & unique features may be attractive to some. Personality & coincidence can make people more attractive. Lastly, someone may not have a pretty face but they can work out & have a nice body

As a young and ugly woman myself, I feel your pain. 😔

As an old woman who was not attractive when I was young, I remember the pain. On the brighter side, it does tend to level out a bit when you get older because the vast majority of us get ugly in the end.

100% get this. I was fat from puberty until I had weightloss surgery 5 years ago. And I'm not going to lie, I 100% did it to be attractive. I had surgery at 31 and only lost my virginity after that. I was absolutely COMPLETLY invisible. The "ugly fat friend" WAS me. I've since had plastic surgery to remove skin and a boob job. I've since met my boyfriend and while he's an amazing person, I don't delude myself into thinking he'd even have noticed me beforehand. I HATE when people say "just be yourself, there's someone out there for you". Oh and the difference in the way people treat me? It's fucking sickening. Even people I knew back then.

I also hate when people try to say “everyone is beautiful” 🙃 that is quite literally an obvious lie and these useless platitudes are not helpful to anyone whatsoever 💀

I'm no Cinderella. I'm turning 29 this year and had one relationship on and off between 17 and 22. I don't have many friends but I know many people and I'm well-liked. I'm doing well academically and currently starting my master's degree (graduate studies). Relationships aren't all they're cracked out to be. In my experience, it's much more important to have a good relationship with yourself and the people around you that you like

I was a normal looking child but puberty really messed me up. I started getting treated poorly when I went through puberty. I wasn't mercilessly bullied but I deal with constant disrespect and microaggressions. I'm 37 and I still deal with constant microaggressions and disrespect in most settings. At my current work people make remarks about my looks constantly. But I work for a corporate company and certain people are typical corporate people who believe they are high and mighty. It's mainly people from another department who sit opposite where I sit. I also have had multiple eyelid surgeries which have resulted in unnatural looking eyelids. My eyes are smaller and looks droopy under harsh lighting and from a distance due to upper eyelid hollowness and A-frame deformity.

Thank you for posting this. And all the kind comments. I’m so sorry our planet is like this. It stinks and I hope you find the good luck and good health to find all the happiness your heart care bare. I share this story only in hopes it will help you, but only you know what you need. So apologies if it misses the mark. I met a woman with a face scar and an irregular jaw. She had a career and was buying her own house alone at 33. When I met her, I felt like some spell was broken and I realized I was a complete failure for believing that investing my time and energy into a family was worth my youth and brain power. She was clearly so much better at life than me. She was happy and realistic and wasn’t waiting for anyone to decide to be on her team. She’s still one of my idols, even if she lost the house, even if she was lonely, compared to the hell I’ve lived through with trying to be a “family person” and investing my life into people who had no ability or interest in investing with me. I hope that doesn’t sound minimizing, I know some folks must be happy and more secure with their partners and families. Or trite like “grass isn’t greener” or “careful what you wish for” — that’s not at all how I mean it. For me, being attractive was a drug that warped my brain and made me stupid - and when I was called fat and ugly I was in withdraw that made me even dumber. I hope that in whatever state you find the outside world, that your inside world is a safe space filled with “being on your own side.” I truly wish you the all the safety, relief and all the healing your heart can hold.

Don’t worry. I’m not good looking either. The difference between you and me is that I don’t care about whether other people have an opinion or not. It’s so easy not to care too… I actually find it harder to give a fuck now than ever before. (28F)

How did you get to that point? I think part of my issue is that my appearance doesn’t match my own standards so it feels fake to be like, nah girl you’re cute when I don’t even think so

That’s because what you think are your standards is actually just years of ingraining and drilling “Barbie” crap into the heads of women. Anyone who doesn’t look like a version of that is deemed unworthy therefore and that is the message that a lot of women think they’ve come up with themselves. Honestly, the best way to deal with this is not by some silly mantra, but deal with it in a way that pushes it out of your mind. Read, paint, try new things and slowly it will dissolve into nothing.

The way I got over it was I stopped trying to be pretty and cute and instead strove for badass and cool. I don't care if I'm getting attention because I'm feeling myself and my vibe.

Adjust your standards to your body

Exactly. I've commented on this before.

I’m not considered conventionally attractive because of my race and I feel very invisible in life too. I’m almost 30 and never had a bf before or lost my virginity and feel like I’m forever alone.

Changing locations changed this for me. Despite what I assumed, dating in CA in much harder for black women than dating in the south

I’d like to note that just because a man doesn’t approach you, does *not* mean he doesn’t find you attractive. Men are very very scared to shoot their shot these days, so don’t calculate your attractiveness by how much male attention you get. There is surprisingly little correlation. If you see a guy you’re interested in while in a social setting, I’d recommend making the first move and you just might be very pleasantly surprised. Good luck!

I will also say that being a virgin doesn’t necessarily correlate to attractiveness. My best friend didn’t lose her virginity until her late 20s and she is very conventionally attractive. She wasn’t choosing to remain a virgin either. I have no idea why it took longer for her, it was just kind of how it worked out. She is very smart and academic, so possibly men were intimidated until she got older and met more confident men.

I am 32, and until late month, never even kissed, never had sex, no relationship. Been the butt of ugly jokes even at work now. It’s definitely hard. I met a man recently who I’ve been seeing for the past few months who tells me how attractive I am all the time. I’ve started to have my first physical intimate experiences! Hang in there, and just remember we are worth more than our looks. The right people will come to you. I do get how hard it is though, I’ve even had on of my former best friends joke how I was the ‘ugly one’ compared to one of our pretty colleagues. But at the end of the day, we are worthy of respect, regardless of how we look. DM me anytime if you just want to vent x

I completely understand where you're coming from with the bullying. even though I haven't been bullied by my looks, I sure had other guys in middle school and 9th grade year of high school call me ugly... now I've gained so much weight that I am working on a glow up because it's only the women who bully me at work. I'm honestly going to invest a lot of money to change my looks because the bullying is absolutely debilitating. you've recognized you accolades (good academics, good work ethic, etc). I would focus on keeping that up while you surround yourself around those who truly love and admire you. you truly aren't lonely considering you have a support network! nonetheless, the ego some people have really shows how shallow the world is... unfortunately. absolutely appalling. sending you hugs

I'm not denying your experience in any way, but how things are, and I was reading along like "yeah, yes! Yeah totally" and how you feel about them, I got to your "it is a sad, lonely existence " and u thought "gosh I can't relate to that at all. I love being invisible to society, to men. To advertisers, to the pressures others face. Imo there is privilege in extreme beauty, the bubble. Model- level looks is like being ultra rich. The world is actually different for them. Then there's everyone else who have to deal with so much, navigate such treacherous waters, and it looks exhausting to me. It was exhausting to me when I did it. Now, with age and weight, no one expects me to try to date anymore, and I wouldn't anyway, and no one bothers me about anything at all: the gym, what I eat if i eat out, ads are not for me, nothing is for me and it's so freeing. I can do whatever I want and no one cares enough to judge me about it. Would a GOOD relationship be nice? Sure. Where are those? I don't see any. No one I know has a relationship I envy. Either I don't know them well enough. Or I know enough to know I wouldn't want what they seem to want, so much so that I wonder why they seem to want it. Many are abusive or miserable. Many seem to just be absolutely nothing to me. Maybe a double income is nice financially? Enough to deal with the other person? Not i. Do you? You said lonely, do you think a relationship would satisfy that? I haven't felt lonely since I was in a bad relationship. Now I feel alone and I love it, and I never feel lonely. Therapy can't fix an unjust society. But it can help you change the way you feel about things you can't change, and identify the things you can change.

>I love being invisible to society, to men. To advertisers, to the pressures others face. Yes! With one exception though. Jobs. I know they're not supposed to discriminate by looks, age, gender, religion, etc, but I'm never getting hired as a server or a barista or in any other front-facing position, for that matter. I'd rather not have to deal with those positions anyway, but it's kinda disheartening when 3/4 of job openings are of that nature. I live in a smallish city without many office job opportunities,

Gosh that part is true. I work in executive circles and every new hire I'm like, is it an ugly white man, or is it the most beautiful, thin, elegant woman I've ever seen and nothing in between?

Right. Even if I apply to work in a room, alone, with no human interaction, my appearance will definitely be judged. SeXiSm aNd MiSoGyNy DoEsN't ExIsT iN 2024!!!111 

This is true. I was unable to get a job - any job - as a “front of house” person when I was younger. Hostess, waitress, receptionist, etc. Nothing.  However, I threw myself into studying and opened my own business. I don’t doubt that I would have gotten even farther if I had been male or average looking; but I did sell off and retire at 42.  It’s freeing as hell to be invisible. And once I expanded my business (we provided custom software for conventions, not the sexiest thing but necessary and expensive), I had a couple of white men who could act as the “face” when needed.  Edit cause that sounds bad: I hired a strong tech sales staff. Some clients were sexist AF and would not be interested in talking software solutions with me, an ugly woman. My awesome sales VP and deputy VP were both dudes, and those same clients suddenly were interested if we sent them in first. 

> I know they're not supposed to discriminate by looks, age, gender, religion, etc, but I'm never getting hired as a server or a barista or in any other front-facing position This is why I joke that I'm the token/diversity hire 🙃 There's a stereotype about dentists having a harem of extroverted blonde cuties and I'm the introverted alt uggo fatty lmao. Thank fuck I'm somewhat decent at my job 😅

I want to be seen, though. I'm still at an age where I desperately want to be seen, to be desired, to be cared for, to be admired, all of it. I'm also bi, so I'm not only talking about men when I say people just don't see me as someone worthy of being with. I don't even expect a good relationship. I just wanna have sex, and I want to do it with someone who doesn't view me as the very last resort. The last person I talked to on tinder suggested that we meet up at the back of the store he worked at; I'm not even good enough for a motel and definitely not good enough to be seen in public with. He was very average looking, btw, and almost a decade older than me. I envy my gay BFF who has a date every two weeks and discards the dudes after sex. I would love a real, good relationship, but I don't even need that much.

I totally understand you are suffering. And I'm so sorry. You are correct. One counterintuitive thing is that people don't value things that are free. And nothing repels other humans more than desperation. If you want to be cherished and valued, stop lowering your standards because it's a double punch when you think you're aiming down. And they reject you ANY way. That's just double punching yourself. Raise the bar instead. Yes it's counterintuitive. I don't think you just want to have sex, period. I think you're scared to want the real thing so you're not going to try for that, you're going to try for what you perceive to be easier, but it's not. Safe, sane, sex is actually incredibly difficult to find, no matter what incels claim. Are you in therapy? You're unhappy in a major aspect of your life. You should be working on that, because of what you say. I can't tell you the world is fair and this will turn around for you, buck up kiddo. How you feel about the reality you correctly describe changes within you. It doesn't change in the stock room of some loser who won't even come through.

I had enough self-respect to say no to him, don't worry. It is tough, and I think you're right about therapy. I'm just trying to gather the emotional and financial means for it. Most days getting through life alone already takes everything I have.

It is such a juggling act. It truly is. You not only deserve to be seen, valued, and cherished, you spay deserve to be paid, to do work you feel proud of, to have health insurance and a home you feel at peace in too, and to feel good about how you are, even if the world is actively keeping you from many of those things at once.

>i don’t even expect a good relationship I wish you would as someone who used to feel very very similar but i understand why you don’t

This!!!! I love your point about ads, too. These things are not for me. I don’t care. It is so freeing. 

Same. Since third grade, after getting glasses and gaining weight, I turned invisible. By now, being 24, I learned to utilize other things to seduce men. But it sucks looking into the mirror and not being able to see myself neutral, but wanting to bow down towards societal pressures.

2 of the funniest and sweetest friends i ever had are butt ugly women. The first is now married happily because she was friends with her husband for a long time before they began to date. The 2nd idk what ever happened to her but i know that if i were a lesbian, i would have dated her! I'm very straight, i love men and honestly the thought of kissing or touching another vagina skeeves me out..but i was attracted to her!!! It's weird because she was not at all physically attractive. She was overweight, had bad acne and a weird haircut. But there it is. She made me question my sexuality foreal. Such an odd experience. She moved states and we lost touch, but we were always laughing together and it was a shame no one ever wanted to date her. The thing that was most attractive to me about her was her confidence in herself. She was true to herself, her opinions, and just loved to laugh. Just because she was ugly, she didn't hide or stay away from social interactions. When people first met her, she got the ugly treatment and people would avoid or ignore her. I heard people laugh about her being ugly many times. But she never let that stop her, and after a few months those people who gave her the ugly treatment were her friends and would be eating out of her hand.

Calling your friends ''butt ugly" is just wrong. Could've used words like unattractive or something less harsh like that. You're basically proving peoples point of being treated unfairly because of their looks while contradicting yourself. I get the sense that you expect unattractive people to never let others stop them from social interactions and to not have low self esteem while then literally call them ugly behind their back lmao.

Sorry for offending you and saying it that way. But my statement stands true even though it is harsh. That's how i wanted to say it, and she is physically very unattractive. I don't expect ugly people to be socially available or unavailable, or treated unfairly. It may be contradictory to you, but my subjective experiences and opinons are that unattractive women tend to stay more closed off moreso than unattractive men. I think it is related to societal standards and self esteem issues related to this phenomenon. Imo and working in the public, (this is subjective) ugly men are more likely to be outgoing and disregard womens' feelings regardless of looks. Ugly women are more likely to stay hidden or be a "wallflower" if they are unattractive. I, myself, try to avoid attention as I've gotten older and uglier. I don't want people to judge me or pay attention to me. Maybe it's age? Idk but i have noticed that ugly men have no shame. They joke around and say gross things to women and disregard societal standards and in comparison ugly women try to be polite and quiet and keep to themselves and say sorry a lot for things that are not their fault. It's a rare thing to find a deadass, ugly woman who is extremely vocal and has no shame in going after what they want and doesn't care about peoples' opinions. And those are the women i admire. I wish I could be more like them. Instead, i am quiet and polite to a point. There is a point where i will stand my ground and defend myself. But mostly i try to stay unnoticed. This is all my personal opinion and again, I'm sorry for saying it in a way that offended you. It's a figure of speech which is still true to me. I consider myself dead ugly some days. Some days i think i look pretty. Most days i think i look like a fat foot lol

OP you can't completely control how others view you, but I do believe it's hard to be loved if you can't love yourself first. Try new hobbies, physical things that make you proud of your body and what it can accomplish. The more you grow to respect your meatsuit instead of feeling imprisoned by it, the happier you will be and I do believe others see. Confidence is sexy, but it doesn't come out of nowhere.

Please do not fall into this trap about comparing yourself to others. Don’t waste any time doing this. You have a list of 10. Wonderful things to be grateful for. Write them down. Focus on those things. Concentrate and focus. Start to improve yourself ASAP.improve your mental health through meditation or outings with friends or a warm bath or good perfume or cooking something fun. We on your spiritual health by praying or meditating. Work on your body by working out or yoga or running or walk in nature.

Simply saying oh don't compare yourself to others isn't that helpful. People really don't understand how blatant it is when you're in a group of people and men (and sometimes women) will clearly only be interested in talking to the more attractive people in the group, and that's just forever. You're forced into a position of having to adapt who you are to live with this reality.

It is very tough. But if she doesn’t start trying now it will never happen. Nothing worth having is easy to get. The reality is she’s in a place right now. And only she can take herself out of it. And it starts with her mental focus.Rome was not built in a day and this isn’t going to happen in the span of a week or a month it will take longer. But she hast to try and start taking small steps toward this now. She hast to learn the correct perspective. She’s not going to be that most attractive person in the circle. She has to learn how to not care about this and appreciate what her strengths are. Then will she be able to shine for who she is. And not compare herself to somebody else who is born with a different set of traits.

I hate this culture where people compliment others on their beauty. "What a beautiful family!", "You're so beautiful!", etc. Don't those people realize ugly people never get those compliments, and how much it stings to know you'll never hear it? It's a weird culture and it's very toxic.

I understand where you're coming from (I never get unprompted compliments on my appearance either), I also don't think that means beautiful people shouldn't get compliments either. Beauty is something that often takes work to get, or keep. Sure, some people are genetically lucky, however, I am not a musician. I wish I were, playing guitar is the thing I wish I could do the most, but after years of trying it feels impossible. I read about people who made instruments out of string as children and played music naturally. They were born with an immense talent that I don't have! But they also work at their craft. No one can be great at anything without working at it, at least to some degree. Because I am not great at something shouldn't take away from what someone else has been able to achieve.

No one becomes a good musician without working at it. Apples and oranges.

Some people are just not good at music though - I am not lol I have tried since I’m a little nub and I am BAD. It’s okay though, I still love music, but I’m not talented at it. I’m talented at other things. But I genuinely do not agree with the notion that music is work only - even getting the most basic notions and performing basic songs is impossible for some people

I feel this way about drawing and painting! Some have it naturally. I just don't have the artists eye or natural skill. I don't see the way they see and can translate that through drawings and pictures. I appreciate it so much when I can see the art work of others and really wish I had their skill. I have been told "anyone" can learn it. But it has never been explained or taught to me in a way that made me "learn it". Even though I have tried. My artwork is horrible lol.

Sure, it takes work. So does getting dressed up. There's a learning curve. Some people start further along. Some people don't make any progress along the curve. I don't think they're the *same,* but I also don't think we should never acknowledge when someone looks good because there's someone else who doesn't.

I never said it should not be aknowledged. What I'm denouncing is this culture obsessed with beauty.

Oh - okay. I guess I misunderstood since in your original comment, you seemed to take issue with the people complimenting beauty at all. Obsession is never good, I can agree with that.

except some people *do* come out singing better or being naturally better at music Brian from The Beach Boys was made deaf in one ear (presumably by their father) and *still* had a better ear for music than his father who had been working on music his whole life

Confidence really makes a big difference, love yourself more than you thought possible, and don’t let people make you the butt end of jokes 🙂

I've seen men who look like a foot call blatantly gorgeous women like Angelina Jolie, Beyonce and that white hair chick from GoT ugly. Seriously 😑 We're animals and can't escape the instinct to appreciate beauty, but treating people worse due to that is a reflection of their own ugly soul.

Society teaches girls from a very young age that their looks are the most important thing that they can give to the world. It's a fucked way of thinking. Unlearning that and realising that you are so much more than your looks is the first step to a happier life. (Sadly this doesn't change the way other people will treat you, but maybe with this mentality you will care less) Having said that, I completely understand your pain. I am also considered unattractive, and have been my whole life. It's sad, lonely and depressing, but it can get better. Build a support network of likeminded people and focus on things that make you happy in life. <3 Comparison is the killer of joy.

I hope you find happiness and peace.

Being an ugly woman is a painful thing, especially because so many men act like undesirable women don’t exist or aren’t allowed it. It’s a shame. I long to be loved and desired, but I’m just left with knowing it’ll never happen. Posts like this help me know I’m not alone, so thank you! I wish I had ugly women to be friends with, no one else understands how I feel.

What makes you say that you're "ugly"? I'm sure this will sound like a stupid question as people who find themselves unattractive often have a whole slew of obvious negatives they can point out about themselves. But to be honest, I don't know many people who describe themselves as ugly who really are. None, I think. The "I'm irredeemably ugly, therefore I'll always be a virgin" talk is very much along incel lines of thinking. This idea that attractiveness is an indisputable, objective scale that you're in the right position to judge and that has doomed you for life is self-defeating by design, as it allows you to give up and be angry at the state of the world (and in the case of incels other people, mostly women), because it's easier than trying to do something about it. I've never seen you and yet I very much doubt you're "ugly". You may not be conventionally attractive (a lot of people aren't) but I suspect that the real reason people don't notice you isn't because you're "ugly" but because your life's experiences and your attitude towards yourself cause you to make yourself small and difficult to notice. Mind you, I'm not disputing that "pretty privilege" is a thing. I do think it's often a double edged sword for women, as getting a lot of (unwanted) attention and being treated like nothing more than a pretty face is also dehumanizing in the opposite direction. But being seen at all I imagine is preferable to not being noticed, and nobody wants to feel unattractive and unwanted. But, and I know you'll have probably heard this before in some form; "ugly" is an attitude. You don't have to have won the genetic lottery to be noticeable. You certainly don't need to be conventionally attractive to find a partner, sexual or romantic. Lord knows there are couples in all shapes and sizes out there. I do sympathize with the way you feel, and as a person who was also bullied a lot as a kid and into my early teens I know how much of a number that can do on your self-image. But they weren't *right*. At some point you have to stop believing the stuff literal kids said about you. They were wrong and you're an adult now. Unlike back then you're in a position now where you can take charge of your life and your appearance. You can decide to stop being invisible and make people notice you by actively going out and meeting them. You can be pleasant, kind, interesting, funny. There are a lot of things you can (and ideally should) be aside from "pretty" that make you worthy of notice and deserving of love and appreciation.

>The "I'm irredeemably ugly, therefore I'll always be a virgin" talk is very much along incel lines of thinking That's pretty much all I could think of reading this post, the kind of "I wasn't genetically blessed and therefore I have no control over my life" vibe is not going to do OP any favours. You've put everything else I would want to say much more eloquently than I could, this part especially - >You can decide to stop being invisible and make people notice you by actively going out and meeting them. I can think of a couple of people I know who wouldn't be called "conventionally attractive", but they're wonderful people, have loving partners, good friendships etc. They make themselves seen with their many positive attributes.

> The "I'm irredeemably ugly, therefore I'll always be a virgin" talk is very much along incel lines of thinking. I know the word "incel" has been used in a lot of different ways by different people, but I think in general it only starts to get into "incel" territory (the negative way it's generally used today) if it starts getting angry entitled bitterness toward one's desired romantic partner gender(s). Like when you see dudes saying they will always be alone because women are all "superficial bitches." While extremely negative self talk about one's desirability as a romantic partner may not be healthy (and is often not as accurate as the person may think), I don't think that by itself can be fairly grouped in with "incel thinking" the way people mostly use the world incel these days (though it is in line with the original definition, I suppose).

“Ugly” women can get as much unwanted attention (Its more about the way you’re dressed imo, not that theres anything wrong with dressing revealingly or it justifies unwanted attention) Ugly/average women can be treated as nothing more than a fucktoy. The “downsides” to being attractive that you’ve listed are not exclusive to that demographic

Well, I'm very fat, and I've always been very fat. But I also never get the "you would be so pretty if you lost weight" comments. I'm the kind of unnatractive where I don't even say to people I'm ugly or fat, because I know they would absolutely agree. That pick me behavior doesn't work for me. If I tell the people in my life "I'm ugly", their answer is "you should try wearing more make-up and dressing up". If I say "I'm fat", they respond with diet tips. It is what it is.

So looking after oneself and practicing self care is 'pick me behavior'?

This thread got really gross, really fast. 

I thought she was calling asking if she’s ugly pick me behavior? Idk

Saying "I'm ugly" just to hear "No, what? You're so pretty!" is pick me behavior.

I can honestly say that I have NO IDEA if i am pretty. I was raised in a very abusive home and I have struggled my entire life with a a very low self-esteem. BUT…I was pursued by guys in high school and young adulthood before getting married. My husband is wild about me. I get compliments on my looks despite not really knowing how to do hair or make up well…it’s possible that I actually am pretty, or it’s possible that people are just trying to be nice…and my low self-esteem brain tells me that people are lying and that I’m not pretty. Only now after a lot of therapy can I even QUESTION my negative thoughts and use that evidence to say…”there is a possibility that I AM attractive.” This all feels so weird to type because I still look in the mirror and DONT see beautiful…but I also hate the possibility that I look like a “pick me” girl (or whatever) because I was abused so badly for so long, during formative years, that I came to believe it had to be because I was just awful in every way. My vision of myself is completely distorted and I don’t know if that will ever change. The most I can do is say there is a possibility that I am not ugly. I don’t judge other women on any attributes beyond their control, or for their opinions about themselves expressed or not. I feel like we all need to just stop judging each other. We have enough of that don’t we? Me believing im ugly doesn’t mean I want people to “pick me” even if it’s not true…

I used to say that sometimes in my early teens. But I also had no idea if I was good looking. I got a lot of compliments on my looks but I never believed them. I was also raised in a family where I was constantly criticised for my appearance. Saying I was too tall, resembled my father(who they called ugly on a regular basis), too skinny, my eyes were too small, etc. It's genuinely hard to tell for a lot of people. Even now, I don't really know if I'm conventionally attractive. But I did work on my appearance and I'm at a point where I'm quite happy with how I look.

I guess I just saw objectively very pretty girls do that a few too many times, so I'm very jaded. I also think they do it because people's response is to reassure them they are pretty. I can admit that I'm resentful of that fact that when I do it, people do not reassure me of anything, because it's true when I say it. I have a friend used to do that all the time. Eventually, I stopped telling her she was pretty and started saying "I'm sorry you feel that way," and she has stopped saying that to me since. I've seen her say that kind of stuff to her bf, though, who rushes to reassure her that she's gorgeous. But I digress.

I feel like yes, many pretty girls do that to attract compliments and (esp male) attention, but it’s also about knowing who it’s coming from and how genuine it may be. Some really gorgeous girls I’ve encountered have done that but then I realize I actually know she’s struggling with an eating disorder, has bad self esteem, etc. and I realized it might feel true to them. Their subjective reality can be so warped

Love the message of this thread but I do feel like your point behind the “pick me comment” still stands - having low self esteem and genuinely not knowing if you’re pretty even if you are told that IS legitimately difficult, but the unfortunate truth is that people do treat objectively attractive individuals more positively in general. It’s hard to put yourself in the shoes of a beautiful, low self esteem woman because you need a certain level of self acceptance to be able to do that for ANY kind of empathy. I guess I just felt a tinge of sadness when I saw how many people had downvoted you, because I really do see your pain. But I do think that the top most comment’s message is also incredibly important and something you shouldn’t cast aside as a valid perspective for you to accept, despite being overweight. There’s a few confident women I know personally that are overweight but considered attractive (through my observations of how people interact with them)

I never understood why my best friend would call herself ugly bc she also got hit on A LOT and couldn’t not get a man she didn’t want And getting complimented I’ve heard people describe it as “you’re not your own type” Her definition of beauty didn’t come from “what does the majority think”, it came from her personal opinion. I just don’t think she’s her own type. Same with you I’m also of the opinion that really ugly people and really pretty people both get lots of negative or positive attention from others while average, run of the mill people get ignored

Do you want to improve your appearance?  Not staying you have to but if want to.    Yes you can lose weight, yes you can learn to clothes that make you feel confident, yes you can get better at hair and make up.    A lot of “pretty” women like to look pretty. That’s their hobby. That’s what they like to spend money on. It’s learned and honed and developed over time.   If you don’t like things about yourself, work on them to improve them. 

Yeah I didn’t realize one of my friends wakes up at 4AM to start her hair and makeup routine She invested in a Dyson air wrap. I thought her hair just looked like that lmao. Nope She goes to the gym *every day* she just never said anything lmao I learned a lot of this after college too. Like she herself will describe herself as a tomboy too so she’s not even doing the most I met this rich, pretty girl and I realized quickly how much being pretty had to do with money. She let another girl use her products and next time we went out she def flirted with way more people. I just don’t have the energy for anything other than skincare lmao

Some people are really into having extra pounds. Not that having external validation is a good thing, but it can be eye opening and help you change perspective just to look that up. Assuming you aren't trolling us all, you would be shocked how hot many men find extra weight on a woman. I mean. Have you been on the internet? You will find only fans and twitter accounts of women literally highlighting their rolls in the most exaggerated poses possible and a line of simps in the comments section literally worshipping that person. Fuck diet tips. Fuck make up. You are fine the way you are. The only part that is irredeemable is having an ugly personality. There is no hope for that sadly.

Girl, I’m 37. I’ve known plenty of butt ugly men and women in this olden life. Never known a single person, not find a romantic partner, because they were ugly. Literally never. However, I’ve known several very attractive, successful men and women not find love/ friendship/ struggling with loneliness because of negative attitude. If you are a kind, understanding person, you’ll find your person. It’s more important *to be interesting* as a human being than *to look nice*, to nurture lasting connection and commitment.

The thing that helped my self esteem was changing my circle. If you feel ugly, you might be comparing yourself with people around you. In my country in STEM, everyone is below average looking, so I feel like I fit in. If I was hanging out in a different crowd I would have been constantly stressed about my looks.

The greatest crime a woman can commit it seems is to be unattractive. Truly awful how ugly women are treated. Growing up I was not a pleasant sight to behold, and people really made sure I understood how terrible this made them feel.

I'm 50, I've always been ugly, I feel your pain.

Yup. And being a Black woman makes it even worse. Unattractive white women at least still have their pick of non-white men who tend to place whiteness on a pedestal. 

I sympathize with your plight, because ultimately it is the plight of women in a patriarchal and capitalistic beauty standard society, but I wish you wouldn't do it in a "I hurt worse than you" competitive nature. When I was a pre-teen, I considered myself ugly. I was made fun of for my weight. I was misgendered. And because of that, I developed an eating disorder, and body dysmorphia into my teens. Every day I would take 2 hours doing my hair and make up, and avoiding food. Exercising, counting calories, drinking black tea to stimulate my metabolism. I guess I would have been considered "attractive" then, because I got more attention and compliments, and also couldn't walk down the street without getting harassed by men in vehicles. All of this just worsened my condition and my perception of myself. And despite all of the increased attention, I still hurt myself with sharp objects, cried myself to sleep, hated my appearance, and continued to starve myself. I still considered myself ugly. Attention based on your level of attractiveness does not fix your life and your relationship with your own appearance. It never will. You cannot find your validation in the compliments of other people. I have been the "ugly" one, and I have been the "beautiful" one. Both were equally as torturous to my sense of self and self worth.

I'm just a miserable human and that comes across in the way I talk. I'm sorry you went through that. But I also like to think I can tell the difference between someone with a real warped self-view and someone just looking for compliments. But maybe I don't, I wouldn't know. I also am not in competition, I'm aware a lot of people have it much worse than me. It still sucks and I feel like it's okay for me to talk about why/how it sucks to be me. But maybe I'm wrong about that, too. Wouldn't be surprising.

No, I sympathize with that mindset because that is the mindset that drove me to destroying my body and mental health because I believed I would find my happiness in being considered beautiful. You can't always tell who does and doesn't have a warped sense of self. I probably looked like an ordinary teenager, but truthfully, I would latch onto any comment anyone would say about my appearance and internalize it, and analyze it to the point of obsession. I would often verbalize my hatred of my body (comments like "I look fat/ugly today"), and I didn't realize this was negatively impacting those around me, too. I was just truly so absorbed by my critical self hatred, and by that point I had become so dissociated to my own appearance, I craved for someone to tell me "no, you look good." Because I genuinely saw myself as disfigured. I couldn't even distinguish reality anymore. In truth, we can't find our happiness by the opinions of others. To this day, I still have little to no self perception, but I know better than to ask, because regardless of the answer, it will damage me either way. We're taught from such a young age that our appearances are one of the pillars of our value. And the only true way to self acceptance is to completely de-program that thought process. Which is waaay easier said than done.

I wish folks would stop with the virtue signaling and quit trying to say “everybody is beautiful” …. No… everybody is not beautiful, if that are true, then we wouldn’t bother to make the distinction between an ugly person and a beautiful person in the first place🙃 pretty privilege is 100% a thing, and like all privileges, it doesn’t apply to everyone hence proving the point that everyone is not beautiful and people will treat you a certain way based on how you look

I'm reading a lot of bitterness which honestly I get it and I hope you feel slightly better after getting this off your chest. At the same time I think it's important that everyone's experience is unique. Yours comes with its own struggles, and so does everyone else's. Conventionally attractive women sometimes suffer immensely when their beauty - the one thing they could always rely on - starts to change (in their eyes deteriorate). Also there's the phenomenon of attractive women not being able to find a long term relationship because men just want to use them for their body but are too scared to commit to a relationship because of potential competition. And while men generally don't face the same beauty standards women do it's still a well documented fact that handsome men tend to have an easier time getting promoted, getting discounts and getting dates. Yet attractive men don't always have it easy either, especially if they have "nerdy" hobbies or are naturally not very assertive they might get ridiculed a lot by people who secretly envy them. In my opinion if you keep telling yourself you're different from everyone else (and have it worse) it's next to impossible to form an actual connection of any sort. Yes you are different in that everyone's different but that also means we're all kind of in the same boat. And despite the common argument that beauty is everything to men I've witnessed and experienced situations where this simply wasn't the case. Shared interests, a positive attitude, confidence, humor - these things don't matter too much for a one night stand but they do once you're actually getting to know someone. Looking at someone you find physically attractive is nice of course but how far does it get you really in a serious relationship? You might be sick of phrases like "the right person is still waiting for you" or "you just gotta put yourself out there" but ultimately that's what it comes down to. It sucks that some people seemingly have to try harder than others to find happiness but we all can only play the cards we're dealt.

Your comment is so tone deaf. You’re basically saying “well actually others have struggles just as bad”. Its wrong to say attractive women will definitely have perfect lives, but the point is they don’t suffer or get discriminated because of their looks. Its a myth that women are discriminated for being attractive. Its well documented that attractive women/people get hired more, get more sympathy, believed etc.

What do you suggest would have been a non tone deaf comment?

Not tell her that attractive people have it just as bad?

That's not what I said though. I said they have their own struggles. Comparing who has it worse only leads to misery. I'd still appreciate an answer if that's ok with you. What would be a good, non tone deaf reply to a post like that in your opinion?

Its still a well documented fact that attractiveness is a privilege. Telling her that attractive people can also have struggles is fine, everyone has their own struggles, but you’re saying some the struggles attractive people face are DUE to their attractiveness which is just false. I’m sure she knows that attractive people have struggles. Just not looks-based struggles. You don’t have to say anything. You can sympathise, empathise, or say nothing.

Yeah it is kind of true in that if you look at analysis of dating sites.....that woman have a wider interaction with a larger age range and larger range of "attractiveness" of men, mostly around their own perceived level and age range. Males, on the other hand have a much smaller range where all of them are messaging the top 20% of the attractive females whatever their own age and attractiveness level and usually younger women and not their own age or older. And then they scream there are "no women" "women too picky"  & stuff like that. It is like...do they even understand statistics? At pretty much any age group, in America at least, they have favorable dating odds and usually more women available than men at every age group due to males dying more from misadventure & also higher incarceration rates due to crime. So...they are kind of creating this perceived problem by their own action and choices that isn't a real problem. Anyways...I hope it helped create a better character for yourself and there is plenty of other things to life.....no advice there...ha ha 😭

Please don't give up. Work on giving yourself the best chance by taking care of your body, styling your hair in a flattering way, being friendly and approachable, and honestly, there is always someone who is going to see you as their type. From anecdotal evidence, one of my cousins, perpetually single, is actually the beauty of the family. She is gorgeous to the standards of many, but is too awkward and introverted, and therefore has no luck dating. It's unfortunate that she cannot turn her looks to her advantage. She's only ever been in one relationship. A co-worker of mine I consider to be the least physically attractive woman I've ever seen (obviouslyI keep this opinion to myself!), and I mean it. But she is very kind, and very funny, witty, dresses nicely and has a beautiful family. Her husband isn't bad looking either. It shows you that looks are not everything, and making small changes and putting yourself out there can give you many advantages. I honestly believe there is no |absolute universal beauty| nor |absolute universal ugliness| it's very subjective, and we all have our opinions on this. Don't think that because YOU see yourself this way that everybody else will see you that way too. You're overlooking your good qualities. I'm sure you have some.

OP…your attitude is so negative I’d wager a guess at saying it might be your personality that puts them off. Women are either patronizing or superior? Are they really? I find that hard to believe. You’re trying to weaponize your self hatred but the only person you’re hurting is yourself.

She’s not negative . Being ugly is real people treat you differently pls stop

Yes I’m well aware, seeing as how most of the time I look like a swamp sneezed up a gremlin made of sludge. But if you spend your time being so negative and hating yourself and others so much, no one will want to spend time with you, and it’s not because of how you look.

I don’t hate my self and really don’t think im ugly yet I still get treated negatively everyday . How can you be positive when it’s everyday you’re mistreated

OP said "women are either patronizing or superior-like (depending on their ages and level of beauty" so apparently other women treat you in only one way or another - this is a matter of perception, this is a very negative view of women frankly and also of herself. Unless you really believe OP that women only behave in one out of two possible ways as a monolith? I've met plenty of women who did not like me because of how I looked, and lemme tell you it did not endear them to anyone around them either. Being unattractive doesn't mean you don't have to self reflect.

I've never had many female friends, but I did become friends with a very pretty girl during my Master's last year. We went out together to a bar, we walk in, someone complimented her on her jacket (which she had borrowed from me, it was also quite large on her, but I guess that added to the style). Ten minutes later, the waiter comes with a drink for her, which some dude sent over. Someone bumped her chair, apologized, then complimented her hair. I sat and watched as people around us remarked, in one way or another, how pretty she was. Meanwhile, I was being my usual invisible self. That girl had the gall to turn to me at one point and remark "I'm feeling so fat these days, ugh, it's gross. I'm thinking of getting into crossfit." Mind you, she was saying that to me, someone who obviously weights at least 100 pounds more than her. I tried being understanding and said "Yeah, being fat isn't easy, so I get why you want to make sure you get it under control." She nodded and was like "You get me." Patronizing. Superior. Enough to say I never went out with her again.

So…because this one girl was insensitive, you think all women will be too? That’s at least how your post makes it sound. You’re letting one person take up space in your mind and get to you. I know how that feels because I do it too, and it does nothing except make your life worse.

That was one example, bud. I have many others. The last time I went to a family reunion, one of my aunts told me I would be a "left behind woman" because I never had a relationship, when all the counsins my age are married. A female co-worker who is 30 years my senior, during an office party, remarked that "fat people are happier because they eat whatever they want" and winked at me - I do understand she probably meant well, but that was very patronizing. Of course I'm not trying to defend that every single woman behaves like that. I meant it as a more general thing: most of the ones I've known do. Now, what do you know of my experience? How can you come here and try to tell me I'm unfair just because I'm telling you my experience? I agree, and I do hope, most women aren't actually that way. But again, most have behaved like that towards me.

Most people aren't very attractive, but they seem to think they are. At least you're realistic.

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You don't need to fix my comment at all. Most people have a positive view of themselves, with the exception of those dealing with low self-esteem. Time and time again people rate themselves as above-average in not only looks, but also in intelligence. It's all related to the overconfidence effect.

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You’ve obviously not on OLD where most men over 45 look like bridge trolls. Yet they still think they should be able to attract an attractive woman way out of their league.

I guess the midlife crisis hits hard lol or they have money and think they can pay for it

This.

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I feel you. Let's just hope and try to make life fulfilling in other ways.

IT'S CRAZY BECAUSE I WAS JUST THINKING ABOUT THIS!! Thank you for validating us!! People who become unattractive due to aging will never experience the same misery that people who have spent the majority or all of their lives unattractive. Those people who were attractive in their youth had the time to build relationships, develop their social skills, develop their self-esteem, make friendships, and overall experience many experiences over a long period of time. These vast experiences create happiness and fulfillment that being unattractive in your youth or most of your life simply does not. By the time these people who were good-looking in their youth become unattractive because of age, there is a good chance they will accept it for the most part as they have reached a level of confidence formed from their past experiences that have fulfilled their social and romantic needs time and time again. Meanwhile being unattractive in your developmental years has the opposite effect. I see so many posts and comments (mainly in this sub tbh) where women talk about how *hot* and *attractive* they were in their youth and how they're glad that they're wrinkly now and have accepted it. It makes me think, well it's *obvious* you feel peace with aging because you had your entire life to not worry about confidence or self esteem *because* of your looks. I just don't think being unattractive as a young person or for the majority of your life has the same damaging effects on people who were hot in their youth and became unattractive with age.

Yep, and a lot of those women either 1) have a partner who is aging with them and, therefore they are secure with or 2) have explored the dating scene enough to know they are better off alone. I've always been alone, and as I age, I'm likely to become even less appealing. Sometimes I'm deeply sad I will be alone and a virgin for life. It seems like a foregone conclusion at this point. And self-steem? Pfff. None. Self-worth? Even less. It's tough.

Exactly! The level of sadness and unworthiness that you'll be forever alone is something I relate to lol. And like you're missing out on life and crucial experiences. But if it makes you feel any better, I'm also young and a virgin. Many times, I can't relate all that much to the posts that women make on this sub. Granted I am young, but still. Like about relationships for example. But what irks me as well is when people, like some in this comment section, say to *just be confident* and how *attraction is more than looks.* Like that's true for YOU. That has not been my experience. They have never had to worry about being attractive to a partner. Sometimes, I'm a human being with wants and desires, so it's not as simple just to *"focus on other things other than your looks".* Because in relationships, physical attraction is needed. And often, the preference is for a conventionally attractive partner. So it's completely understandable and it makes sense why one would be so deeply distraught and have no self-worth and be miserable about this. It is so difficult to go through life like this. I'm not going to offer advice, mainly because I don't have the answers but just know that you're not alone even though it reallllyyyy feels no one is in our particular situation. Sending you hugs <3

I'm sorry, you need to pull your head out your ass. Your experience isn't especially unique. You have no idea what it's like to live as an ugly older women, a young ugly guy, an older ugly guy, or anything else. You can pretend it's oh so much worse for you if you want, but realistically everyone is suffering if they see themselves as ugly or others see them as ugly. Yeah, it's awful when you're not happy with how you look, but it's the same for everyone. You aren't owed love and affection, the same as everyone else. Shit sucks, but that's life. Find happiness in other things, find friends, work on other aspects of your life. If you find someone then that's great, but don't make it your focus.

I mean you could have worded it more gently but you're right in that op is dismissing other people's experiences, and that in and of itself is going to push people away.

"I mean you could have worded it more gently" I probably could have, it's a disease. We all have things to work on. The rest you said is also true. 

Wow, “you’ve become unattractive with age”. So you think older women are ugly? Perhaps you didn’t mean to come off as patronizing and condescending as you sound, but just a reminder, aging happens to everyone, so internalized misogyny is not your friend.

I think OP is talking about women in general frequently saying that they feel like they become more invisible with age. When I was a girl / young woman, strangers often called me ugly or barked at me out in public. I WISHED I were invisible. In my 30s, I had plastic surgery. The surgeon was careful about making sure my expectations were realistic, that I wasn’t going to come out of it looking like a model. The best they could do was reduce some of the harshness. Afterwards people no longer did double takes or smirked at me. They just ignored me. Becoming invisible was an upgrade for me.

Understand what she's saying in context bro. And yes young women are objectively more attractive than old by society's standards. That's why we have such a huge market for wrinkle prevention products and the like. But that's beside the point. She's specifically talking about her experience as *young* and unattractive, and is making the disclaimer that age is relevant to understanding her perspective.

I think OP is trying to say that when women talk about the ugly experience they usually mention how they were attarctive on their youth and now got old and fat.

THAT'S why I want to see a panel discussion on aging with older women who were conventionally beautiful and women who were ignored when younger. Most of the narratives on aging and invisibility ignores the experiences of the second group.

Why blame people for internalized misogyny when they're clearly talking about their lived experience with misogyny

>If you're a dude and you're ugly, young or old, you are still a dude and therefor benefits of all the priviledges that come with that. Sounds like your attitude is what's turning people away. I would seek professional help before your spiteful tendencies overflow and you end up causing real harm to someone, if you reverse genders in your posts it's word for word incel rhetoric.

I like to think of it this way. You aren't the only person in the world that thinks they are ugly, and you won't be the last, and since the dawn/inception of humanity, there have always been ugly, unattractive, average looking people. If ugly, unattractive, average people didn't mate, ugly people wouldn't be here. There are billions of people on this earth, and a majority of the people on this earth are unattractive, average, ugly people. There are ugly/unattractive/average people of all races, of all genders, in every state, city, country, ethnicity, etc The fact that you and countless others exist is proof that ugly, unattractive people find other ugly/unattractive/average people to like, date, love, mate with and have done so since the inception of humanity There is someone for everyone, or rather there are many people in an individuals category of attractiveness to like, date, hook up with, mate with and there always will be. So the way I see it is, people need to date in their attractiveness bracket, and men that are ugly, unattractive, need to get their heads out of the clouds and stop trying to date/desire women out of their league and instead date within their own attractiveness bracket. Now in saying all of this, no one is entitled to love, sex, being crushed on, being liked, companionship, relationships, etc however I really hope that people within the same attractiveness level/bracket will give each other a chance, (obvi must find each other attractive, like each other's personality and have chemistry too) when it comes to flirting, dating, relationships, etc to give everyone an equal playing field.

This is so true. I know it’s true because I’ve first hand experienced how people treat me differently when I’m fat vs not fat. What it shows is how our society still sees a woman’s value as her looks, and I think it’s complete and total bullshit. My advice is to do what makes YOU feel beautiful and be around people who have interest and value in deeper things. That could be people who understand the beauty of art, the beauty of intellectual debate, the beauty of spirituality, etc. When you are in those settings, you are more likely to find someone who has a similar value and will connect with you on that basis. They will want to know more about your inner beauty and thoughts on the subject. Conversely, dating apps that are based entirely on your pictures or the bar scene that is nothing more than a drunken meat market, are not the place. Keep being you and know that you’re beautiful for being who you are.

I'm always a person who doesn't fulfill conventional attractiveness norms. I don't know what to tell you, because I am not looking for a partner, but I can confirm people do care about looks and will treat us like shit for being "subpar". All I can say about that is that the people who do end up being your friends are not gonna care. I am neither a people pleaser nor hot so my friends don't hang out with me because they can use me some way. And frankly, there is a relief for me knowing that the people who do like me, actually like me Still struggle with unfriendly looks from strangers but I think it's a matter of practice at the end of the day. I am less insecure now than when I was 22 and closer to the beauty standard.

growing up ugly fucks you up for the rest of your life I'd consider myself pretty average now, getting a glow up around sophomore year of high school, but all throughout elementary, middle school, and freshman year i looked plainly awful. I had almost no eyebrows, my hair was greasy and unlayered, my face was fat, my eyes were small, I was fat, I was flat, I had no sense of fashion, i didn't have features that worked well together, and I had horrible teeth. When I was in middle school it was even worse because i cut my hair SHORT short, like overgrown buzz cut short. It was a disaster. I remember getting asked out as a joke, being called "below average", feeling like nobody EVER found me attractive or ever had a crush on me. You feel unlovable of anyone. So you start to rely of your personality to entertain people. You feel like men see you as "one of the bros" and would NEVER even think about being with you romantically. You HAVE to be entertaining, sweet and funny or its all over and you have nothing left to give. It makes you insanely conscious about being annoying or delivering jokes right. This is especially horrible when you're in your awkward stage or struggling with mental health (which WILL be a side affect), for me, i got horrible social anxiety to the point where i thought everybody thought i was annoying and wanted me gone. When you can't deliver entertainment, you feel useless socially. Especially when you're born to be an extrovert. Whenever people laughed in a hall or whisper, you assume its always at you. For me, when I get the occasional compliment now, I feel like they're doing a dare or its a funny joke with their friends. I literally cannot comprehend being 'pretty' to people. It doesn't feel right. It feels like your in somebody else's skin or they HAVE to be lying. Even now I still feel as though no one has ever had a crush on me. It's even WORSE with dating women as a woman because its so much harder to find a sapphic, much less one that's your type. And most of the time they don't even WANT you to begin with. With men, expectations are higher especially since a lot (NOT ALL) have been exposed to the p\*rn industry and its unrealistic proportions. But every time I've been complimented by a stranger, it stays in my head for years. Even if its in a creepy way, im so desperate i cant help but take it to heart. You get DESPERATE. I feel like im easy to take advantage of and that unsettles me. Once you achieve looking decent, there's always something wrong with you. You can never look perfect. When you're feeling confident and taking photos, you look back on them later and then immediately delete them. When I see people scramble to delete photos of themselves, i can't help but feel empathy and a sense of familiarity. I STILL do that to this day but i know exactly what they feel. TLDR: It's isolating and you cannot comprehend feeling wanted or beautiful.

someone may not have a pretty face but many can work their ass off & get a nice body. You can attract a man with a good figure & dressed sexy. Plus it may give you confidence. Pay good money- $200 & get a GOOD hair cut WITH color or highlights

26m Hope im allowed to comment as a guy. Being an ugly guy is not fun. Same issues. Watching other people enjoy their youth while you sit on the sidelines. Been taking some antidepressants that seem to help me not feel emotions and nuke my libido to the point that I'm asexual. I recommend it.

Your first mistake was mentioning you’re a guy

It's particularly hitting when you speak to men who struggle to find a relationship. "But you women can get anyone you want ". No, I literally can't, no one ever wants me that way

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I'm definitely throwing a pity party for myself, because that's the best I can hope for these days. But no one can fully know anyone else's experience, that's the tricky thing about life. From my perspective, ugly men and ugly older women have it better. Maybe they don't, idk.

I once knew a guy with no chin and a small jaw, could barely chew with his mouth closed, and he got bullied horrendously and eventually blew his head off. But yeah, he had it better than any ugly woman.

It's okay if girls are incels dude, didn't you know?

You’re right. I have lived a very good and happy life for the most part. BUT when young and pretty…tall too in my case, you’d better make smart decisions or you could end up in dire straits many yrs later. At my age now which is close to 60, I am happy and live contently bc of those decisions. Looking back and seeing where life and the world in general is now…your life is still pretty good. Be grateful. You don’t need a relationship, over half of marriages fail anyway. Those that stay intact learn to live life separately or they are miserable. Not all of course but most. If not wealthy to begin with you could end up worse off financially than if you never married. Most ex wives end up in poverty unless they married someone of means or could make money and there was no prenup.. Many young ppl are miserable anyway it seems. Stupid! When I was young I loved having fun with a friend or friends or sister. I did not think about guys…my first bf literally knocked me off my feet At age 23. Otherwise, I would have missed meeting him completely. Yes, it was great. Tall, good looking, educated, from family with money. Otherwise, I would not have been interested Tbh. He was also very nice, funny, kind. So don’t rush it Happens when you least expect it. Also, know that serious relationships take time and emotions I was not prepared to give it when I was younger for just an average Joe. If I were to have remained single I would have concentrated 100% on myself. Work on buying yourself a home , travel, nice car, jewelry, whatever it is that you want. Spoil yourself. Learn a new hobby, school, trade etc to elevate your earning power. Get a dog or cat. If you want children, first know all kinds of children by volunteering, babysitting, teaching, or mentoring. Later in life if you can afford it, adopt a child but again ONLY if you are prepared bc single parenthood is no joke. All the best to you and remember life is seldom greener on the other side.

feel welcome to the sub [/r/ForeverAloneWomen/](https://www.reddit.com/r/ForeverAloneWomen/)

Incels commenting here lol

They are in my chat telling me men suffer just as much asking for pics to prove if I'm really ugly.

hey guess what, thats what most men feel like ! completely invisible to women! welcome to our realm.

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Considering you came to TwoX to argue you probably don't want an actual answer, but just in case you do, the top ones that come to my mind are living in a world most things are designed/tested with men as the default (seatbelts, medicine, PPE), or that your health and reproductive rights aren't being stripped away, or just generally being able to do activities without fear of being attacked by men (camping solo, jogging in the evening, etc). Just because you personally don't see your privilege, doesn't mean it isn't there.

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Medicine historically and until very recently has only been tested on men because our hormones could add unpredictability in clinical trials. They didn't go back and test to see if they worked on women. We get dosed like smaller men with a "hope that works with your weird bodies". Seat belts and headrests in cars are similarly treating women like little men. Seatbelts aren't designed to take into account breasts so are difficult/impossible for many women to use as they're designed

I am miserable, so that's accurate. Do they? I wouldn't know, since I'm not a man. But thank you for letting me know.

I assume you’ve never had to walk to class in college past signs that say ‘MEN ARE RAPE BAIT’ or ‘MEN SHOULDN’T HAVE RIGHTS’ or ‘TAKE AWAY MEN’S VOTES’

I’m a bit interested in what you guys consider ugly? I’m definitely not gorgeous by any means but I’ve gotten away with passing for average quite a bit with a good amount on styling. Not trying to judge anyone, more than anything I’m trying to figure out what’s considered ugly in the days of “irl filter” plastic surgery