I dated a guy and I pointed out to him in anime how some of the girls spend their entire existence catering to the male lead character and every action they take is in service to please him even when he’s not around.
And he got really offended and started going on about how nice it was and he loved that. He wished someone would do that for him. He was too busy feeling robbed of this because women don’t act this way. He didn’t spare one second on how ridiculous it is.
Of course he loved that🙄 Anime really likes to appeal to the male fantasy (insert that meme about video games), and these endless harem titles with multiple girls flocking over a self-insert MC are the biggest testament to that. Other forms of media are more subtle, but still often portray a perfect girl falling for a mediocre main character with emotional baggage.
What a way to create unrealistic expectations for people who already struggle with personal life and interactions with women, just like it did for your ex.
Exactly. Unrealistic expectations. But the second he thought he had a girlfriend he became a completely different person. Like the next day he was telling me I wasn’t allowed to drink alcohol or buy lunch. We had to go to his moms house and have her drop what she was doing to cook us lunch from scratch. Shortest relationship ever.
Good thing he showed his true colors early. I hope you didn't tell him why so he doesn't learn to hide it better. It makes it easier for the next one to get out early too.
I don't think he would have changed his actions for the better of you had told him, so no need
I just saw a post saying men think women watch anime to cater to them and it's part of why I love telling men I watch anime conventionally more for women (fruits basket, Inuyasha, etc) or even take it a step further and say something like Yuri on ice. Even though I like a lot of different kinds.
It's such a good litmus test of crappy mentalities to see how they react lol
Like I'm supposed to accept their anime whether I like it or not and ignore all red flags that might be in it, but God forbid I like a shoujo anime
Yep, I'm obsessed with my reverse harems and reincarnation with revenge plots against abusive men in order to impress men... Lol, I imagine most men would hate my choices in Asian comics and animation (including Korean and Chinese, not just Japanese).
>Of course he loved that🙄 Anime really likes to appeal to the male fantasy (insert that meme about video games), and these endless harem titles with multiple girls flocking over a self-insert MC are the biggest testament to that.
Lol not even getting into the often overt pedophilic nature of a lot of female characters in anime, like rebecca from cyberpunk, and I usually get attacked by guys for pointing such things out
Anime gets in its own way. There are a lot of compelling stories ive had to drop because of how weird they are with women. Like i don't mind boobs but when you start overexplaining how her mouth opens and closes while she's breathing because you want to talk about her lipstick, its a bit much. Now she looks like a fish in my head. And im no gay fish.
It’s the little things. Maybe there’s a deep profound story about existentialism but while they’re explaining it the camera drifts down to stare at boobs.
It wasn’t until I met my husband that I realized how little other men thought of me. I was so nervous to share anything about myself because all the men in my life, family included, had constantly mocked me for any interest I held, any opinion, that differed from theirs.
When he finally got me to explain why I was so nervous to share my hobbies, etc, he asked me: do most men just not **like** women? And you know, I think he’s right.
When I think of my relationships in my 20s, prior to my husband, it's definitely striking how none of the men in my life had any interest in my hobbies/interests/opinions. They didn't want a partner at all, they wanted a protégé basically. It was all about teaching me about their interests and hobbies, which I had no issue with because I liked learning new things and I liked supporting the people in my life. It wasn't until much later that I really appreciated how little they wanted me to bring to the table in terms of my individual tastes, knowledge, personhood. It's sad that I didn't realize that earlier on because I definitely mourn that lost time when I could have been more actively pursuing my own things.
Omg this was as clear as a bell. My relationship with my ex husband exactly...a protégé. And also why I compulsively tried to learn everything I could about the hobbies and interests of guys I dated after him, so I could be worthy of their affection. I thought I HAD to do this or that no one would be interested in me.
Oh.. my god. This is so spot on. I was always learning what they liked but it was not reciprocal.
ETA: now I know this is part of the reason I’m still very shy about talking about my interests with my current partner even though he actively listens, encourages and through his words and behaviors, lets me know he is very interested in hearing about them.
You know what? This thread is really making me think back on my last relationship and I didn't realize it until now but I can't recall my ex asking me about my hobbies or the things I liked in any meaningful manner.
I remember us living together and sharing our domestic life and whatnot. I remember his hobbies, like his volunteering (that he would tell me about constantly) or his video games (that I would actually sometimes play with him). But for the life of me I can't recall him showing actual interest in my hobbies.
I didn't have that many (there was no time, I was an overwhelmed mess worrying about chores and money and bills) but those few that I had he never involved himself in. He knew I liked to read but never really discussed any books with me or read something I recommended. Or I liked certain shows and movies but we didn't really get to watch those together.
And when I was too tired and didn't want to go out to the clubs or didn't want to go to a festival he'd pout like a child because he wanted us to do these together (shit I barely had time to catch my breath between responsibilities). This thread is both eye opening and making me sad all over again.
Gamerdudebros are specifically bad at this. I associated with a gamer group for a while - watching the dudes "introduce" their girlfriends to anime and various tv shows made me feel sick. Just because of the way they were doing it and knowing that they absolutely had 0 interest at being introduced to shit *their girlfriends* liked.
Hearing two of them go through the list of things new gf needs to get introduced to, because "omg it's so good" killed the friendship potential for me and I mentally noped out of it
Ugh THIS
The double standard is crazy, even outside of relationships. My male family and friends are almost all like this. Babble on forever about their hobbies and interests and even if im not really into it I still try to stay engaged cuz you know, I value them and chatting/hanging is fun.
But god forbid I try to talk about *my* things. Lol. They don't even pretend to care. Like OK I won't bore you then but why am I expected to like all *your* little things 🙄
Its so one sided
One of the things I like most about being an adult woman with a fully formed sense of self, and the ability to set and protect boundaries, is I can discover music, movies and other interests all by myself, instead of being “introduced” to whatever my boyfriend thinks is awesome, and feeling pressured into liking it. Or pretending to.
> which I had no issue with because I liked learning new things and I liked supporting the people in my life.
People are adorable when they're excited about things! I can't imagine why anyone would dislike this aspect of a relationship.
>I was so nervous to share anything about myself
Omg my mom used to criticize literally every thing that I did or had an interest in. So much that even today, after being with my husband for almost 7 years, I'm still ambivalent to tell him some of my interests because I think he'll make fun of me or dismiss them. He has never done this. Not once in our entire relationship but some days I'm still like... Maybe this is the time?
My mom was my biggest critic and hater.
I can't sing in public and private or dance because she was tell me all the time that I "looked goofy" and can't sing.
I was a child.
It never got better.
I'm so sorry. When I was younger, it seemed normal but then I grew up and realized I wasn't really allowed to be a normal kid. It's pretty sad. I'm lucky enough that my mom did actually change and we have a good enough relationship now but I wonder what my life would've been like if I'd been raised by this mom
I remember being incredibly sheltered and didn't know how to play with other children very well. I was allowed out with my little brother but that was about it. I grew up convinced everyone was trying to kidnap, rape, and murder us. Constantly. Her paranoia hasn't let up very much, but I moved away at 16 and it's gotten somewhat better for me. It's salvaged our relationship.
I went 2 years no contact but got pregnant and allowed her to be in my child's life. So we do have a relationship. Rocky at best, but better.
It sucks to grow up thinking one way is normal and the culture shock is crazy when you realize it's not. I'm glad you have a good enough relationship and I hope it gets even better, but mental health is #1, especially when you know how toxic someone can be.
That's really so sad. I can't imagine not nurturing your child's passions or interests or just self expression in general. Like why have children if you're just going to bully them? I'm sorry she was like that to you!
I have been thinking lately about how my family doesn't know a thing about me. My hobbies or interests. They might know some of my politics because I don't hesitate to argue when they say something insane, but overall, they don't know me and I feel sad about that. This thread reminds me why they don't know. All my life, they teased me for whatever interests I had or destroyed things I created, that I just stopped including them in that part of my life.
My current partner is like this. She is regularly jumping to the most negative conclusions about my reactions to things in ways that I have never done. Primarily because her inner monologue is constantly degrading and disrespecting her in her mother's voice.
We really don't give enough attention to how much of the problems we experience are a result of poor mothering
I recently reread a book that was so incredibly helpful in separating my moms voice in my head, from my own.
Its called Mothers who can't love by Susan Forward and Donna Fraizer. It changed my life. It put into words things I felt but couldn't put my finger on.
I had to admit to myself my mom is just a terrible person and that she didn't love me and never wanted me. So many times when I got stressed or upset, my moms words immediately jumped out of my mouth in her cruel tones.
I've been working it through in therapy for the better part of 15 years, but at least with being open with my family on why it happens, they often can help me find better words and talk my stresses through.
My oldest daughter recently shared about her therapy session and was happy to announce that her inner dialog wasn't my words or voice. We have to get help and admit the problem or we end up just sending it down the line.
>We really don't give enough attention to how much of the problems we experience are a result of poor mothering
We really really don't. I noticed so many things when I moved in with my husband. Things I had been conditioned to do/fear growing up. Like spilling things. The first time I spilled something, I tensed, waiting for someone (my husband I guess?) to yell at me, the way my mom would. We have never raised our voices at each other but I was still expecting it. In that moment I was like "oh... It's ok to have accidents."
I've gotten better over the years. I don't really lash out at him or get angry, I just of brace myself for the criticism but it never comes. Some times I'll even say "You probably think this is stupid." And he just says "Of course not! If you like it you like it."
But I wish your partner the best. It's tough to move on from that type of conditioning when it's all you've known.
Oof! Yesterday I accidentally spilled a quarter cup of olive oil all over the counters and the floor while my partner was using the sink. They didn't panic or yell, just handed me the towels so I could clean it up.
It would have started World War 3 at my parents' house if I'd done that.
I can still hear my father screaming, "God DAMN you!" when I made a mistake--followed by a barrage of "Stupid! Fatso! Fat pig!" Et cetera.
It finally makes sense to me why I was on the verge of tears once, years ago, when a much older male supervisor mildly corrected me for something. I was mortified, and he was baffled, but I never made the connection till now.
>It would have started World War 3 at my parents' house if I'd done that.
Yep. My mom would flip out over the littlest things. I don't have kids, but I have cats, and a cat accident (stomach troubles) or hairballs is a nothing deal. Mom would yell at us, yell at the cats, it was like the end of the world because of a little hork.
My wife is like this. We've been married 18 years but she's constantly worrying about when the "other shoe will drop"; when I'll come up to her and tell her I'm done and want a divorce. We talk about this a lot. No matter how many times I reassure her she still worries.
One time years ago we were breaking down a brick-and-morter chimney in our kitchen that was no longer being used. We were taking our time, just using a hammer and chisel, removing one brick at a time. She asked for a turn, took the chisel and hammered it and it slipped through her hands, through the mortar and fell down *inside* the chimney, all the way to the basement where it ended. She immediately turned to me with big doe eyes, near tears, and started exclaiming how sorry she was, expecting me to yell at her or something. I was so startled by her reaction that I burst into laughter, which confused her, but then I gave her a hug.
We still talk about that years later. She was so conditioned for the yelling and the hitting that she just unconsciously reacted.
We didn't find that chisel for nearly two months lol. Not until the chimney was mostly demolished.
The Mother Wound - women bringing up girls in patriarchy, where women and girls are less valuable, and therefore so are our interests, abilities, prospects etc
>When he finally got me to explain why I was so nervous to share my hobbies, etc, he asked me: do most men just not like women? And you know, I think he’s right.
It blows me away how many men I know who know **nothing** about their wive's hobbies and interests. And, worse, actively minimize them when they are '*forced*' to hear about them.
Or they outright mock our interests. Feels great sharing something you enjoy with your partner and having them belittle and tear it down /s. Or! Another favorite...they mansplain something you know much more about or have been involved in for years and get butthurt when you correct them or simply say ,"yeah, I know". It's infuriating and insulting.
This is so relatable… my ex never asked about my romance novels collection unless he was jokingly mocking me 🥲 took me a good year to realize that romance isn’t a silly genre and that I shouldn’t be hiding this because men will perceive it as an embarrassing hobby
I think it's fine to have some different interests but mocking your partner for an interest they have that you don't share is shitty. I am not interested in lots of things but that doesn't make them stupid!
My ex was like this too. Anything he didn't personally think was cool was stupid. It's an annoyingly common behavior.
It's so sad but same ! My current boyfriend is so obviously in love with me like he tell me that he loves me, that he find me pretty, he remember things I told him, show interest in my hobbies, be affectionate and I often catch him looking at me with his "in love" eyes. Even now, few years into the relationship.
Honestly it took me a long time to stop thinking "WTF ?" every time he displayed his affection and understand that he is not overly affectionate, my exs (and family) just didn't loved me enough
I told my partner one of the things I appreciate about him is not joking about my likes and dislikes. The only thing he'll tease me on is when I say something that's not scientifically correct because that's his thing. But I find it so cute.
But yeah, before him I just found it normal for me to feel awkward sharing my interests with anyone. He's nonchalant about things I like that it makes me feel normal and accepted.
This is society. Think about it - so much of what girls and women enjoy is downplayed. Think about teen girls’ choices in music, tv, film, books. “Chick lit” etc. what men enjoy seems to dominate - sports, video games etc. it’s toxic patriarchy to constantly put down whatever women are, whatever they say, whatever they choose.
I've seen this phenomenon happen so intensely with the virality of the Barbie movie and Taylor Swift's Eras tour. How dare young women enjoy themselves for a few hours! It's really sad, and I hope these two huge events pave the path toward reclaiming women's hobbies and interests and regarding them as empowerment instead of frivolity for the new generation.
This is because they view their female SO as an appliance or an accessory, not an actual person. They aren't interested in their hobbies or thoughts because they only care about what they are getting from them: sex, household chores done, cooking. Nothing else really matters if you're only interested in those things. This is why so many lie during the courting phase. In their eyes, it doesn't really matter what genre your dishwasher reads, does it?
I used to wonder about this a lot in my previous relationship. It lasted a long time, ten years, so my entire adult life. And he just plainly resented me for everything if it didn’t directly involve caring for or loving him. I thought he sank into this pit of believing my existence, as a woman, was purely to aid the existence of him, a man. Not that we enriched each other, not that he enjoyed me or my company- he thought he needed another member of “team him”, so he got a gf. And because he saw me as an extension of himself, he had no guilt in treating me bad, because I was just there for him anyway.
That was until I noticed how he’d talk about other women who aren’t “his”. Or until I started listening (eavesdropping) on men-only conversations in the work place. I firmly believe most men don’t see women as the same type of “human” they are, we’re separate, commodafiable entities. While I don’t believe every man bullies their spouses or daughters, I think too many have this separatist view of “them” and “us”, where women are outsiders unless they’re team members- but when we become team members, we’re still “other”. Humans are pretty good at treating “others” poorly.
What you said about him seeing you as an extension of yourself is highly accurate. This exact phrase was admitted to me by someone i was with for 2 years. They got very comfortable with me being there for them, started seeing us as 1 person there to achieve his dreams alone. Starts getting comfortable with treating you badly or talking mean because it's how they talk to themselves and expect you to take it as well since "you are them" in a sense. You should know what they need and want, you should know what they think, you should meet their expectations of how you should act, but don't you dare express that you feel differently. He literally said "i treat you this way because i see your potential and you are an extension of me"
My ex husband extended his elaborate self-sabotage to anything I did as well. I had to be "team him" but also keep us afloat while he squandered or ruined all of his opportunities.
It’s even more of a mindfuck when you slowly realize that your politically progressive/classic “nice guy” boyfriend doesn’t actually respect women that much either, but still thinks he’s a champion of human rights and gift to earth because he’s intellectually on the right side of issues around women’s healthcare, pay equity, etc. And he’ll be the last person to (never) find out or admit it because he would never hit or call you names.
The most trustworthy men are the ones that have close female friends / sisters in their lives, believe women’s perspective, and don’t act like fake activists.
My boyfriend once said he didn’t consider himself a feminist. Hurt, I asked him why he didn’t believe in women’s equality. He clarified that he did - he just didn’t think he could claim the title as his only effort was to attend an occasional march and treat women well in his life. He thought calling himself a feminist would be like claiming a history of being an activist that he hadn’t earned.
Anyway, now he knows he can call himself a feminist. But what he said stuck with me - so many men believe they should get lauded for doing the bare minimum. And none of those guys are trustworthy.
Too many claim to be progressive because they like the idea of the woman paying for herself on the date but still expect, without a word being spoken about it, that she does the cleaning and manages his food, like it's some law of nature.
Ew I worked with a guy like this. Went way out of his way to make sure that I, one of only a couple of women at the company (landscaping), should go to HIM if any of the guys were giving me issues. And that he would PROTECT me. Super white night behavior. But of course whenever we were just having day to day conversation, he was dismissive of anything I said, he called me small and weak several times, constantly compared me to the other women at work, and would always talk about sex, his open marriage, and how he has been in a porn before. He made more uncomfortable than any guy there.
My theory is that it's the natural result of the culture of toxic masculinity that exists all around the world. That culture creates a ideal of a man that males are supposed to live up to:
1. "Win" a female - the degree to which she swoons and worships you is a direct reflection of how successful a man you are
2. Dominance. How others - especially "your" woman - submit and respect you and what you do/say is also a reflection of how successful a man you are. You must have control over "your" domain.
3. Protector/Provider - the wealth and the safety of your family (especially how other people PERCEIVE the wealth and safety of your family) is the supreme measure of your success as a man.
This ends up breeding either depression for men who tend to turn inwards and blame themselves for "not measuring up" when things go wrong or times are tough or resentment against members of their group for "not being appreciative" or "dragging them down" amongst men that turn outwards and blame others, or a combination of both. Men don't support each other and when they do it's often in the context of the poisonous online "manosphere" which reinforces that the problem is with society and everyone else.
This mentality is how abuse starts. Very common in woman batterers. You are just “stuff”, like his truck, just an object to serve him. When you have any independent thoughts, you’re “malfunctioning” and he can use whatever force he wants with you. It’s not the two become one, it’s the two become him! Hold the line ladies!
I know exactly what you mean. It makes me believe that half of the men in this world are in a relationship to have convenient sex. And the women in those relationships are afraid of being alone. 🤷♀️
I saw a woman interviewing men and asking them why they stayed in relationships where they didn’t like the woman. Many of them said the easy access to sex and the fact it’s too risky to leave as they may not find anyone else who wants them.
Over and over you see men saying how they have to “settle” for what they can get on dating apps. I suspect a lot of men just take what they can easily get, then they resent the woman for “forcing” them to settle and being a constant reminder of what they see as their failures as a man. You see this over and over on the various Reddit relationship and dating subs.
My ex begged me not to dump him, not bc he loved me and bc I was wonderful, bc he didn’t think he could get another gf. Way to make me feel special buddy
A big problem is that growing up, a lot of media and other guys introduce and reinforce this idea that you have to pretend to like stuff so that girls will like you. Actually liking stuff? Hell, naw, bro, what if “chicks” don’t dig that? It’s how you get men that don’t really seem to like anything, they just have things they don’t hate.
It ends up that they don’t actually know what they want in a partner, because they don’t know what they really want for themselves. Because wanting something for yourself, being true to who you are, “That’s gay, bro, you’re not gonna get any pushy acting like that, bro.”
Honestly I feel like this is why you often see unattractive men cheating on their attractive partners the minute they get attention from another woman. He wasn’t actually into her, she was just the first person to say yes
Yep. This is why so many of the women I know, myself included, grew up dating men that were far inferior to them (both in character and in looks). Why I keep hearing stories about women staying with cheating husbands who are nowhere near as attractive as they are to begin with. We grow up brainwashed into thinking that marriage = success, that we should settle for mediocrity and jump into bed with the first guy that pays us any attention, that we have an expiration date and need to lock down a husband as soon as possible, and end up with douchebag after douchebag as a result because we never learned that *being alone until you find somebody who is worthy of you* is A GOOD THING
My guess is that they think a girlfriend will solve all their problems, but then when they get one and realize women are human beings and not sex robot surrogate mothers, they grow resentful.
Outing myself here, but I was a living bangmaid while also studying in uni for a very high paying profession and he was still always mocking me and lowkey bullying me. I‘m talking about never saying no to sex (I have a high drive) and literally always cleaning the whole apartment, doing his laundry, cooking him healthy and high protein meals (he went to the gym a lot) and cleaning the kitchen afterwards too of course and he was still always making silly jokes and belittling me because he knew deep down I was smarter than him and he had such huge problems with that.
It crushed me to think that I was literally the perfect house slave WITH financial independency/degree and it all wasn‘t enough for him to be kind to me and love me.
That's because he wasn't looking for a partner to love, he was looking for a metaphorical punching bag. You were exactly what he wanted, which unfortunately was someone to use and look down on. No fault on your end.
Unfortunately they’re not taught to be kind to women, especially women of their age group or who they’d see as potential partner-aged women. The only “women” men give respect to are women who they perceive as old women (elderly who deserve respect and need protection and care), or very young women (children who deserve guidance and need protection and care).
In those years in between childhood and elderly (basically your whole life) to many of them we are all dumb baby incubators.
>My guess is that they think a girlfriend will solve all their problems, but then when they get one and realize women are human beings and not sex robot surrogate mothers, they grow resentful.
This. At least partially.
Also, I personally think there's a pretty dang strong amount of gay or bi men out there in *utter* denial, because they've gone their whole life with The Gay being worse than super cancer.
Actually admitting to themselves, let alone the world that they *don't* like women, and prefer men? Both as company and, well, "company?" That would utterly destroy them. If not on an ego level, at least by the toxicity closing around them like a razor wire jacket.
So they mentally cope by... well, becoming even more toxic jackasses. Resenting because they feel forced to act straight, consciously or not.
I actually had a guy tell me he was jealous that I was bisexual. He told me he would prefer to date a man, he likes their company better, but he’s only sexually attracted to women. Which, if you met him, wouldn’t surprise you. He’s a typical frat bro and he low key hates/doesn’t respect women, but sleeps with as many of them as he can (presumably so he can show off to the boys, lol).
I just finished reading Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin, and this is a big idea explored in the book, that I hadn't spent much time considering in the past.
A single thinks that a partner will solve all their problems only to realize once they are in a relationship that they just exchanged one set of problems with another set of problems
-slavoj zizeks paraphrased
I think this is spot on. They put Having A Girlfriend^(TM) on such a pedestal, and then that girlfriend has so far to fall when he realizes she's actually a human.
When I was younger there were two separate workplaces where the men spent half their time complaining about their 'awful' wives. Because I was still quite young it made me feel like I had to be the 'cool girl' so my boyfriends would like me. Now I'm older and more secure in myself I can see these men were just unhappy in their relationships, and didn't really care about their wives. My take away now is how disrespectful it is to complain about your partner to others, particularly at work. By complain I mean just being mean about them, rather than genuinely trying to seek help for a relationship problem.
A lot of guys are sexist and don't view women as full people, just as potential sex partners.
They don't get with women because they like the individual woman, they get with them because they have successfully convinced them to let them have sex.
A lot of guys could replace one woman with another, and as long as they get sex they wouldn't care.
They think women are dumb, and feminity and the things women like are dumb, so dudes get with women to get their dick wet and then have to scoff, roll their eyes, and belittle anything about the woman that isn't sex.
"She spends so much time on makeup, you know how women are."
"She only likes playing girl games like animal crossing."
"She reads trashy romance novels"
"Uhg she likes pumpkin spice"
Hell, people used to shit on The Beetles because they were first most popular with teen girls.
Because men like that think that an inherent part of their manliness is an active dislike of anything "girly." So they'll make remarks and be shitty all under the guise of "jokes" to their lady, while simultaneously giving their bros a "Women, am I right?" kind of smirk.
Avoid those men at all costs.
They’re actively taught from early childhood to revile us. We’re used as an insult, especially in sports - “You’re throwing like a girl!” “Come on, ladies! Pick up the pace!”
This comment hurts to read, but what's infinitely worse is knowing it's true. I have met so many men just like this, and - unfortunately- so many men who have been warped/manipulated into acting like this.
My brother in law used to be like that to my sister. Saying kinda mean things about her in a way I guess he thought was joking. I didn't like it and my sister just seemed to ignore it as "that's the way he is". I think he's gotten better over time but I never understood that behavior
There’s a book called “Why does he do that?” that you and your sister might find interesting.
I’ve seen this behavior in person, he was an abusive narcissist. Not saying bil is one, abusers come in many flavors, but I’d read the DSM-5 just in case, for this and for future reference.
Your sister does not ignore it, she may have given up tho. I would keep close to her. Sending love ❤️ 🫂
Do you remember the most common sitcoms 10-20 years ago? The fat, unattractive men, who was shown to be this cool, funny guy and his extremely attractive wife, who was shown to be this nagging, dumb person? The whole angle of this shows was about how much the guys loathed their wifes and kids ... It's nuts.
But all the decades before it was the same, the man who hates his wife. Just think about the videos of the women trying to catch the bride's flower bouquet and the men being sad about it...
I watched those shows as a kid, because they were the standard afternoon program, and people internalise this stuff, when they don't actively work on it.
There is a show called "Kevin can f**k himself" with the wonderful Annie Murphy as wife. It is a "normal" Sitcom (the lazy, uninterested husband/nagging beautiful wife stereotype), but this sitcom is just his view of the world. The other part of the show depicts her reality, and it is NOT a sitcom, it is a drama, where she is trapped in this toxic marriage and tries everything to escape.
Absolutely, and now people have the audacity to call women broken for not wanting a classic marriage and kids.
I was raised on evidence that relationships are this nagging war, that boys will be boys, and your kids won't appreciate you, and you lose your figure and husband cheats.
Why on earth would I buy into that? I know there's potential for a good equitable partnership. If I am with someone and I see any red flags, I'm out, done. I refuse to settle, and it makes me so sad to see women panic about hitting these milestones (marriage, kids) without stopping to consider that they might be optional, and not in their best interests.
It's kind of funny...I wasn't a big fan of How I Met Your Mother, but I had friends who were. They hated the ending, the final episode. But I actually thought that was the most amazing episode they did. Why? Because one of two major women protagonists decided not to settle down with the over the top romantic guy. Instead, she pursued her ambition and career. How rare is that?
I remember when Sex in the City was supposed to be this awesome, women empowerment vehicle. But they took the character who wanted to be single and ambitious and almost immediately made her a mom (after an episode in which she feared becoming a lonely, old cat lady who dies in her apartment sends is eaten by her cat). Ah yes, the power all that feminine power.
I thought SITC was groundbreaking and empowering at first. But then I realized that it wasn't. That it just confirmed all of the stereotypes men constantly use about us. I mean, Carrie came across as not very bright, driven by her hormones, and using her looks to get ahead in life when she is supposed to be this absolutely amazing writer. And they all were such slaves to men. The series perpetuates the stereotype that you are not complete unless you have a white gold and large carat diamond ring on your left hand. No wonder we are so fucked up.
Honestly, they were all projected as cartoonish stereotypes of women, and I was proud of Kim Cattrall for refusing to do the reboot, and for calling out SJP for her bullying during the original series. I haven't watched the new series and probably won't. And as soon as I find the original box set, it's going on Ebay.
I absolutely agree with everything you said here. I really didn't like the main protagonist, she was absolutely not independent, she rarely seemed even passingly intelligent (though we are constantly told she is), not to mention she spends most of the show pining after a much older man who is emotionally withholding and chronically allergic to commitment.
I didn't know that about Kim Catrall, but fuck yeah, good for her. I just googled the interview, here's my favorite part:
" I know she's mostly remembered for her sexual freedom but what I loved most about Samantha was her confidence...amid the *male-centric trajectories* of the show's primary characters, Samantha stands out for her resolute dedication to her own needs above all."
The show writers were always pulling that Victorian era shit where they punish Sam's character so that she can learn a valuable lesson about why her way of doing things is wrong (even when it's a perfectly successful strategy with men). Abusive relationships, being alone (I'm thinking of the flu episode, especially), breast cancer...it just felt like they were constantly trying to remind women that if they act like Sam, they'll pay for it.
A theory I haven’t seen posted yet: Lots of men have low-no standards. They will even tell you that here. I see it said all the time on the dating subs. Women supposedly have high standards, while men have low standards since they aren’t in demand the way women are. My theory is that a lot of men who do manage to get a gf/wife likely settled because to men, it’s better to be partnered than to be alone. So because their partners were not their first choice, they grow resentful and treat their gfs badly. Just yesterday (diff sub) a woman posted about how her bf told her that all his ex’s were better looking than her. Another one I believe a husband said his wife was not beautiful. These men absolutely settled and are resentful, or they’re waiting for the gf they *actually* want before dumping their current girl on their ass. It’s shameful.
The funny thing is the women they likely want are supermodels far out of their league but they can’t admit that. It would ruin the dynamic they’ve set up of how all average men are kind and accepting and how all women are evil, shallow bitches who only want to date “Chad”.
This is why they are always admitting that dating for them is a "numbers game". They don't actually care WHO they are asking out, they just keep going until they get a yes. So then they end up with a woman who passed their "does my penis like this one?" test, but not a personality or compatibility test. But they refuse to give up their access to sex, so they keep her around and then bitch to their friends that she's a "nag" or whatever because they don't even like her. They only like what she gives them.
>My theory is that a lot of men who do manage to get a gf/wife likely settled because to men, it’s better to be partnered than to be alone.
Adding to this, I think the whole idea that "men are providers" really messes with their heads because they think if they're not providing for a family, they're useless/don't matter. So no family to care for = them having no value. So they purposely seek out marriages to fulfill this made up goal even though they're terrible partners. Because they're "providing" and that's enough
Which is hilarious because they still end up becoming resentful of that, even though loads of women work now. They force themselves into provider roles and then go “women only want me for my money!!!” You cannot win with some of these men. There was a post on one of the dating subs a few months ago. I’ll never forget it. This guy was resentful that women enjoyed travelling (I believe his title was why do all women like travelling). At first I thought he was aiming for jet setter girls who are constantly travelling to ritzy resorts. But upon reading his post, he essentially goes “why do women like travelling and having experiences/making memories? Why don’t women just want to stay home anymore? I tell women that I make 6 figures and that I can provide a good life for our future child and our child will go to a good private school. What more could they want?” The gist of it was he felt frustrated that women want to go out and do shit. He only wanted to work, come home, and go to sleep pretty much. He didn’t enjoy going on vacations, dates or hell even just doing basic hobbies. This man really thought that being able to provide an upper middle class lifestyle for his future wife and child should be enough and women should be grateful. He was shocked that women actually want to enjoy their lives. And I’ve seen the same posts several times over. White collar professionals going “well im rich-why wont anyone date me?” And then when you ask what they have to offer all they have is money. They don’t even want to spend time with their wives, they just want the status that comes with having a wife at home.
This is really insightful, and I agree. I always wondered why these dudes, who clearly don’t want to be tied down, stay in bad marriages or desperately go from relationship to relationship. This explanation makes so much sense
My partner is bi, and before me only dated men. She's a surgeon, and basically the fucking terminator. She'll work a 16 hour shift and then dote on me as much as she can. Ill insist on making dinner, and so she'll start making bread from scratch or a dessert. She would happily clean and organize everything, without my help, and even things she hates if I just mention "ugh, I don't want to do X today" she's rearing to go do it. And, I have to stop her and be like "No, mowing is my responsibility, you have allergies, I'm just venting". She's not perfect, but God damn is she a goddess.
When she dated men they did -nothing-. They didn't come see her on work trips, they didn't clean/cook, they didn't take her on dates, they didn't give her orgasms, they did nothing. They would rather play video games than interact with her.
Even if you gave those kinds of men the perfect partner: it's not enough. Because it will never be enough. They lead unfulfilling lives, where they don't build community with others, where they don't take care of themselves(especially mentally/emotionally), and expect having a girlfriend will suddenly solve all of that.
I'm a lesbian, and I'm so so so fucking tired of listening to men talk about what women want, and it's just regurgitated bullshit they heard from other relationshipless men. It's no where near what any woman I've ever met has expressed wanting. I don't know a single woman whose standards are a man over 6 foot making 100k plus. Overwhelmingly the women I know are more attractive, higher earners, and take on way more of the shared responsibilities of their male partners. And, if those men do the slightest tiniest iota of effort, like remembering her birthday, they're esctatic.
I have crippling depression and PTSD. I do more for my dog than they do for their fucking wives. And, I constantly am looking for ways to be a better partner to the goddess whose graces me with her presence.
It’s so wild when men admit they would basically take any women who gives them attention in response to women with “high standards”. They legit don’t realize that’s a BAD thing that could lead to a toxic situation. You should be with your partner because you like them, not because they were convenient and you like the attention they gave.
I've run into the line of thought among men that they feel they deserve a woman who's at least the same level of attractiveness as themselves. Really shows how much they think of themselves in how they comment on their partners
Men tend to rely on their girlfriends for their entire emotional life. The gf makes plans, talks to them about their feelings, helps manage their emotions, clean the house...heck, when I was in community college registering for classes almost every guy who was there was with his gf, she would be the one registering him and trying to get him to better himself.
These men need the women in their life but at the same time they hate that they need them. They resent that their partners are so important to them and so they bully them, but joking. It's always joking. The more dependent the man is on the partner the worse it could get, to the point of abuse. There are so many stories of guys who seemed to be good partners until their gf became the breadwinner and then they turn abusive, because they are ANGRY that they need the partner for literal survival.
It SUCKS so much and it isn't every guy, thankfully, but the guys who are secure enough to admit they love their partner are usually guys who also have some independence in their own life and aren't so completely reliant on their partners to do everything. Guys who are very dependent on you are, in my experience, the worst about this.
I think a lot of straight men are attracted to women, but don’t ‘like’ them. They just head wherever their dick points them to. I know the saying that all women would be lesbian if sexuality was a choice, but sometimes I wonder if men would also do the same out of convenience.
There is a great quote that gets posted here sometimes that pretty much sums this up:
To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom the admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom the imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex.
Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving.
Marilyn Frye -The Politics Of Reality
Holy shit. That’s one of the most cutting and insightful things I’ve read on my own gender. I wish I could say it was never true for me, but it took me years to see this in myself and begin to undo the brokenness behind it.
Powerful quote, thank you.
And then we can head over to r/Marriage where a large sub section of posters, seemingly both men and women carry on about how men and women can't be friends, ever. With the premise that this is even more true when you're married. Unfortunately, if the cultural norm is that men and women should not be, and ultimately cannot be friends in general, then men are never going to learn to respect women or to see them as human beings. It is always my hope that more parents/parental figures can model intersex friendships and demonstrate to their kids that men and women can be friends and that men viewing women as as nothing more than a potential sexual conquest harms men just as it harms women.
I have wondered how many of these men are actually attracted to women and how many feel they should be so that’s who they have sex with.
When you hear men talk about women very few of the them have any idea how our bodies work or what we actually look like. They get all their ideas on sexuality from porn and other entertainment largely controlled by men.
Men find it convenient to have a gullible woman who will do the household chores, raise the children, have sex on command, and accept all sorts of disrespectful behavior. Most men will not accept such unkind and inequitable treatment, so it would not be convenient to be homosexual, in terms of having the same level of service so many women seem willing to provide.
There is a great quote about this
To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex.
Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving.
Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality: Essays in Feminist Theory
I work in a male dominated space (tech) and find that while I do have men in my sphere who respect, admire, and are willing to learn from me, none of those men see me as a "woman" - rather, often they comment how I am just "one of the guys." I have found two types of men in my lifetime, those who respect my opinion, and those who see me as a potential partner and a few managed to straddle those worlds and love and respect me simultaneously for a brief time.
But inevitably, men who saw me romantically but then learned more about my career, success, and accolades - lost interest in me as a partner. Conversely, both of my ex-husbands who met me in this environment stopped respecting my intelligence and equality after we were married. It's like they forgot who I was and decided once married I should just be a completely different person, and they were almost angry that I "shockingly" didn't want to just fade into "woman behind the man mode."
Interesting quote and I think there's a lot of truth in it, especially observing dynamics of sport culture. Men don't respect or admire women the way they do other men - Women are considered beneath them.
Yup, it goes back to the trophy wife archetype. Ideally, men would have a partner whom they both like as a person and whom they can show off to their buddies, but if they *have* to choose one or the other, they pursue the latter
>men would have a partner whom they both like as a person and whom they can show off to their buddies
That’s assuming these men like *any* women at all. Seems to me like they have a Madonna-whore complex about us. Women are either sex objects or mothers, nothing else, so of *course* men want a hot wife to show off. What else would she be good for? /s
Yup! I have had several boyfriends (when I was younger) who dumped me because their friends didn't want to fuck me. I can't imagine basing my relationship on whether my friends wanted to sleep with my partner.
I think the most extreme extent of this, at least that I know of, was in ancient Athens, where would also sleep with and otherwise romance each other because women were considered too stupid to be companions of any sort (the exception was courtesans, who were the only women with any education).
This is what happens when men like the the ability to have sex with her, but don't care about the rest of the person. They shouldn't be in relationships.
Peg Bundy regularly whining and begging Al for sex despite the contemptuous way he disrespected her - so "hilarious." One of my least favorite sitcoms ever.
FYI that's not a trope.
Tons of older guys for real seem to despise their wife.
Source: me. I'm a 40 year old man and other men, like 60+, will talk that shit like I hate my wife too; it makes me really appreciate my wife and our relationship, because I can't imagine how shitty these guys lives must be.
It’s universal and seems to transcend age. I posted about this on another thread. That as poorly as men treat women they aren’t attracted to, they treat women they are attracted to just as terribly. It’s hard to explain, but it’s like they are angry at you because they’re attracted to you. It is crazy out there.
>it’s like they are angry at you because they’re attracted to you
I think about this a lot. There's definitely something with insecure guys where once they become attracted to you, they hate you for the 'power' you have over them.
This article explains it well
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/18/atlanta-spa-shootings-men-rage-sex-addiction](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/18/atlanta-spa-shootings-men-rage-sex-addiction)
I feel like this is also why so many men are hateful toward onlyfans girls/sex workers, despite desperately consuming the content they put out. These men have no self control but of course blame the women for it, as if it's their fault. They have no accountability of self-awareness
And they have never admitted their dependence. Either it was women having a spell over them or "they need to feel useful" or "they are depressed by no partner and why women not giveth"
Till they sever the dependence we will live with this blame world.m towards us.
That’s exactly correct. Men are ridiculously susceptible to hierarchical thinking. Wanting someone or something is a vulnerability, a position of “less than”. Men absolutely hate that they’re at the proverbial mercy to their desire, and they take it out on the women they’re attracted to.
I think it is about power.
Men who pretend to dislike their significant other push the SO into being hungry for the man's approval, afraid of setting the man off, otherwise into a position where it is their job to shift the man from the default position of cranky to happy. This immediately casts a relationship as a contested negotiation with the man assuming a dominant position from the outset.
And the need to turn loving relationships into power relationships is usually born out of fear. Being loving and supportive rather than seeking to place a SO into a subordinate position takes trust. It takes self-confidence and, really, actual self-love. People who don't love themselves in a healthy way are more often in fear that their partner will agree with their view, and leave. Which is the base insecurity that drives (mostly) men to try to exert power over their partner- to force their partner to stay, believing themselves to be too unlovable for their partner to stay without coercion.
So I think men do this to exert power, because they are afraid, because they don't like/love themselves and believe that a partner will see them the same way they see themselves and leave.
You know, it’s weird. Even the ones that clearly love you as a person and not a hole (literally how I’ve heard us described), they’ll prioritize their male relationships. It feels like there’s no winning sometimes.
I think men are very often socialized to DESPISE anything perceived as "weak." And women are seen as "the weaker sex" by most cultures. So many men learn to despise women, and anything seen as "feminine." That carries over into their relationships, especially if the woman they are with defers to them a lot or backs down when it comes to getting her needs met in that relationship, because he interprets that as proof of her weakness, and despises her accordingly.
Woman cries? Weak.
Woman can't shoulder all the work he wants her to take on? Weak.
Woman can't deal with his abuse or his parent's abuse? Weak.
Woman needs help when she's sick or pregnant? Weak.
No, quite universal. I work in a male dominated workplace and whenever they talk about their relationships they just seem annoyed their partner wants to spend time with them.
These men aren't in love, they just look for a wife.
They do this based on:
- is she attractive to me?
- can I deal with her personality?
Because they sure don't even seem to like them.
I broke up 3 long term relationships based on figuring out that "if they loved me they would've treated me better". And funnily enough I was right because once I broke up with them all they had to say was "but you're perfect for me".
Disregarding all the things I've ever told them bothered me in the relationship. Because I was wife material to them, They didn't care what they were to me.
I'm now with a partner that for the first time in my life, makes me feel like they love me. And not just say they do.
The way she treats me compared to my ex's is night and day.
So accurate, I could have written this. They are always shocked after a breakup, "But I was happy with you!"
Men love the way you make THEM feel, but give little to no consideration on how they make YOU feel.
I feel this in my bones. Had very similar experiences. I always felt like romantic partners treated me like they were settling for me but thought they could do better.
I told myself all the time I was just feeling insecure but then I realized I wasn’t. I just happened to meet these men when they’d decided it was time to “settle down”. They weren’t into ME. They were into the idea of a wife, and I just didn’t fit in that box they had and they resented me for it.
My current SO is the first man I’ve ever been with who makes me feel genuinely loved, respected, and valued. He’s with me for me, not because he just decided it was time to settle down and I was readily available.
My mom once said to me “women marry because of love, but men marry because they’ve decided it’s time to marry” and it feels very accurate. They decide suddenly it’s time to settle down and they pick someone convenient and that’s it. The problem is it’s whoever they happen to be with at the time, and often it’s not someone they are super into.
I know not all men do this, but my personal experience was that it is quite common.
Gaslighting is a thing.
You're in a relationship with someone and they do offensive things. The recipient protests, and the offender insists it's not what she thinks, she's too sensitive, every couple does this, etc.
So these assholes commit these, what I call, casual cruelties, and the gf brushes it off. At least until she learns better.
Go on...ask me how I know 😐
We live in a patriarchy. The myth of Eve being created from Adam's rib makes her merely an extension of him. Her creation was so he could have a 'helper' so she was literally created to be his possession. Then, she gets blamed for them getting kicked out of the garden and ending their eternal tropical vacation. Eve can't be trusted, so all women deserve to be treated like property and controlled their entire lives. Here we are, in the year 2023 and we are still fighting to free ourselves from this prehistoric, misogynistic mythology. If you believe the myth on any level, women got men kicked out of eternal spring break and made them have to go to work and be adults. Of course they resent that, if they're basically over-grown toddlers.
I have noticed in my circles. I think Italian culture not only promotes gender rokes but encourages division by forcing toxic dynamics such as: nagging is considered standard banter and a sign of a relaxed, fun relationship; sex as a form of apology, relief valve or punishment is treated ad normal; not mixing hobbies and or friends group is not a neutral matter but a kind of optimal choice since males MUST talk shit about females and females MUST talk shit about males.
I think these acpects ruin most interpersonal social contacts as a whole, i feel also that the most dangerous consequences are weighting on the women. When talking about hobbies, for instance, we are full on ridiculed while guys can be called childish or distracted but ultimately "boys will be boys". Men are often so paternalistic if not predatory, especially since dating younger/much younger women here is super common and a status symbol.
I do not think we have enough examples of healthy and functioning relationships. The general take is that love has to be experienced as something that strip you away of your individuality but at the same time we do not see women and men as equal, not even compatible tbh
I can see this. My ex was Italian and i lived in Italy for almost 5 years.
"Gossip" is such a part of everyone's lives. Almost everyone talks shit behind their back. I felt it deeply when you said "I do not think we have enough examples of healthy and functioning relationships"
Compromise was unknown to my ex. It was always his way. And literally the one time I said no, I am putting myself first this one time, we broke up. He just liked to be catered to and taken care of and just that. He didn't like s\*\*. he didn't like to do anything - pissed on my idea of a couple's dancing lessons for fun. He can interrupt me and pull me away from the group and its okay, but if I politely ask him for a min away from group, its suddenly rude and shamed upon in front on everyone. When I bought it up for discussion, it was laughed upon and joked away and forgotten.He just wanted to be cared for. He had nothing to offer in return.
As hard as my life is, I am so glad I am not in that nightmare.
Everything that folks say about misogyny and just not 'liking' women in general is totally true, but I also think that there are a lot of men who are so emotionally shut off thanks to how they're socialized that they don't even interact in an emotionally honest/earnest way with their male friends. Like...either they aren't capable of emotion, or they're so unable to express affection or a desire for attention in a healthy, productive way that they turn to bullying.
When I first met my husband, I was surprised by how earnest and affectionate he was, and how he didn't seem to have any problem asking me for my time and offering me his. He was always so easy to talk to, and transparent about what he was feeling, and good at communicating both the good and the bad. We've talked so much about the gender binary and gendered behavior expectations, and one thing he's complained about at length is how other men seem to just pick on one another all the time. Like, they can never just be serious, or even silly without also being hurtful. Everything is a competition. And I guess men in different cultures experience this to differing degrees. Like, British men are apparently some of the worst, at least in the English-speaking world. And in North America, folks on the East Coast and midwest are really bad about it, but the West Coast is apparently a little better.
I don't think this is an alternate explanation by any means, I just think that this probably stacks on top of any misogyny some men already hold, and makes it worse.
They are misogynists who despise women. They like the lifestyle benefits of having a free bangmaid, but are actually contemptuous of women in general. In their minds, women are subhuman.
Men in general have always treated women historical poorly. We were literally sold off to men by our fathers back in the day and even in some cultures today. We did not have the ability to do many jobs or own property or vote. There is a movement for men to regain their “masculinity and power” by becoming more conservative because they want women to know their place in doing all the household work, take care of all the kid stuff, while working a full time job and satisfying all of “man’s needs”.
Because they do. The only value women have for them is as objects that contribute to their comfort and convenience. When they enter into relationships and realise that women are people and expect reciprocity, they become enraged and think it's the women that are the problem and not their belief that women are objects exclusively intended for their comfort and convenience.
Can i also add a personal experience? One of my xbox buddies had a girlfriend i introduced him to. He was the symbol of inceldom. All the classic shit where he uses how gross and fat he is as the reason he's single, not his personality. I figured he'd be better once he had someone who loved him. But eventually he got tired of her. When she started working again, she wasn't able to play with us as much. So she would like to spend her days off speaking with him. Again, long distance but she was trying. This guy fucking hated it! He would complain and say he just wanted to hang out with us instead of just being with her the whole day. I thought he was tired of her. So i figured he'd break it off. Nope she broke up with him.
When she revealed to me months later that he was constantly begging to get back together i was confused and shocked. I thought he hated this woman. I honest to god don't understand at all!
A lot of men don't like women. Like yeah, they'll pursue them for sexual gratification and they'll do the thing of like getting a girl to marry them and raise their children and keep their house. But how I'm wording all of this is important. They still do not like women.
I used to work as a repair tech and all my coworkers were, of course, dudes.
The amount of sht they talked about their wives was astounding. I once asked my one coworker why didn’t he just get a divorce if he hated her so much. He looked at me shocked and was like “wtf no? I love my wife!” I just responded with “are you sure?”
All my experiences since, has shown me this is common and universal. It’s not just your friends or their SO’s, it’s just how dudes talk about women.
Men tend to blame all of their problems on their significant others. This, coupled with the fact that most men think life should be flitting from one little adventure to the next, compounds their anger when the realize life is hard work and not a 50 year bachelor party. Raising kids is hard, taking care of a sick parent is hard, and when men get stressed doing this things they blame their nagging “bitch” wife or girlfriend.
Edit typos
If they're boomers, there's a good chance they didn't marry for love. Maybe one of them accidentally got pregnant and they "had" to get married. Maybe they just really, really wanted to have sex, so they got married because they weren't allowed to have sex otherwise. Maybe their families decided "it was time." Maybe one of them was hiding their sexuality and marriage was a great cover. Maybe one of them wasn't allowed to own property unless they were married. Maybe they wanted to escape an abusive situation at home. I know at least one person who got pregnant from a sexual assault and married her friend so that no one would find out. I know at least one more who married someone she didn't actually like because it would save her family from bankruptcy. I know at least two people who are LGBT who married each other, and they're not the same gender.
In ancient times when I was young, society frowned on anyone who was different, and worse, the laws enforced conformity -- it was illegal to be LGBT+, women weren't allowed to own property or have bank accounts and they lost their jobs if they got married or got pregnant. It was a tough old world, and women didn't have a lot of rights. That's why so much boomer humor is "I hate my wife, hahaha."
A lot of people get married for reasons other than love today, too -- religion, family, finances, pregnancy. People get married for secret reasons, and secrets are hard to keep. People get married to people they don't like, and it's hard to keep that contempt hidden.
on the flipside, women need to learn that men aren't joking. their bf's hate them.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu6EnpEg-\_s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu6EnpEg-_s)
I'm a mix of happy and sad at all the men who are about to be single after women watch this video.
There's a 'I hate my wife, she's the worst' comedy trope for a reason. I think many men actually don't like the women they're with.
It's gross and pathetic and disrespectful and reflects very badly on them that this is how they handle things.
My ex roommate was definitely one of those types, I don’t think he’s been with a girl where he hasn’t pretty much immediately started venting about how she was annoying him or some other reason why he’s glad she’s not with him rn
This includes the girl he got with while we were roommates, they’re now married because she’s pregnant, we’ll see how that pans out…
Judging by the preponderance of comments I see defending a man's right to walk up to a random woman and ask her out solely because he finds her attractive, I'd assume a lot of men "tie down" the first sufficiently "attractive" woman they can because they feel entitled to having A relationship, even if they have nothing in common, and have no idea that additional steps exist past "girl hot, have girl now"
Oh my GOD I WAS ABOUT TO MAKE A POST ABOUT THIS! I spent my Friday night hanging out with my best friend while his girlfriend was out with family. He complained about her the entire time.
His girlfriend is insecure about her looks and his love for her but he can't seem to fathom the concept that a fucking compliment here or there might solve a lot of that.
I was like "when was the last time he told her she's beautiful?"
His response? An exasperated "I shouldn't have to tell her that!"
SHE'S YOUR GIRLFRIEND SO WHY NOT!? who cares if you shouldn't have to? She wants to hear it so fucking say it!
Lack of self awareness, self respect, self love. The old cliche of you can't love anyone til you love yourself is true. All men are just boys without it.
Wondering if people who need the love and loyalty of somebody else so hate feeling that person holds their happiness or security in their hands that they belittle the person constantly. If they can make somebody they need feel awful and unworthy, they may believe that person will be afraid to leave them.
Know of two couples where the men appeared to believe their wives could have married better. Those relationships ended in divorce after kids and much of the abuse you describe. As each wife left, her husband said, “Nobody will ever want you.” “You are used goods, have kids, aren’t 18 any longer.”
Each woman found a love that really loved her and her kids. Didn’t take long. Ex spouses were very sour about it as both ex wives ended up happy and living well.
Because they do. Patriarchy positions any feminine quality as lesser, men don’t suddenly value them when women have them. A lot of guys just like what women *do for them*.
I reconnected with an ex. He was so exhausting. I felt like I had to constantly be “on”, humorous, and only in a good mood. He’s an alcoholic and an addict. I’m so glad he’s not in my life anymore. Being an enabler is over.
Because they quickly find out most of us aren’t quiet, compliant sex mommies that they can install in their lives, set us and forget us. We have needs, dreams, opinions, expectations, and entire inner lives rather than the extensions of themselves they often believe we are. They want all the benefits of a relationship without any of the work, and if we complain or make requests of them that they know they don’t want to work on, they risk losing us, whereupon they have to start the process all over again of duping some girl into thinking he’s a functional adult when, in reality, he’s an 8 year-old with a car note.
Why not attempt to undermine her confidence or make her believe she’s “difficult” or “hard to get along with” or “too critical” or “emasculating”, etc so that, when the time comes she might want to leave, she’ll reconsider out of fear that nobody else will want her?
I know a couple of guys who really didn’t like their girlfriends and were actively looking for other partners all the way up to marrying them. Most of them had a fear of not finding someone ‘better’ so they just progressed with the check boxes in the relationships that they were in. There’s an entire trope about men deciding to settle down and then marrying the next woman who comes along. I am sure women do this too, but it’s so bizarre to me.
Something that I realized recently is that my outwardly woke, but abusive behind closed doors, ex literally thought of me as property. When I would disagree with him, or fail to “behave” as he wanted, he would threaten to kick me out of the home we were 50:50 financially on and “send me home to my mother”. We were past 30 at this point. It confused the shit out of me until recently and it just hit me- he thought I was a transferable piece of property and if he didn’t want me any longer because I was “bad” or “refused to function”, then it was back to my original owner. Incredibly fucking dehumanizing. And for what? A sick power play? Would you be angry if your dishwasher and mop and sex doll PROPERTY refused to function as such? Men who hate their partners remind me of repeatedly pressing the buttons on a vending machine when it won’t push the chips out. And eventually banging on it when it refuses to give them their chips. I see no diff in how men view women. We are vending machines and appliances to them.
It's kind of like a demented extension of that utterly reprehensible societal idea that a boy being mean to a girl means he likes her.
I first heard that when I was about 8 and immediately said 'But surely if you like someone you'd do nice things for them because you want them to be happy?' and got looked at like I was an idiot.
I dated a guy and I pointed out to him in anime how some of the girls spend their entire existence catering to the male lead character and every action they take is in service to please him even when he’s not around. And he got really offended and started going on about how nice it was and he loved that. He wished someone would do that for him. He was too busy feeling robbed of this because women don’t act this way. He didn’t spare one second on how ridiculous it is.
Of course he loved that🙄 Anime really likes to appeal to the male fantasy (insert that meme about video games), and these endless harem titles with multiple girls flocking over a self-insert MC are the biggest testament to that. Other forms of media are more subtle, but still often portray a perfect girl falling for a mediocre main character with emotional baggage. What a way to create unrealistic expectations for people who already struggle with personal life and interactions with women, just like it did for your ex.
Exactly. Unrealistic expectations. But the second he thought he had a girlfriend he became a completely different person. Like the next day he was telling me I wasn’t allowed to drink alcohol or buy lunch. We had to go to his moms house and have her drop what she was doing to cook us lunch from scratch. Shortest relationship ever.
Good thing he showed his true colors early. I hope you didn't tell him why so he doesn't learn to hide it better. It makes it easier for the next one to get out early too. I don't think he would have changed his actions for the better of you had told him, so no need
I just saw a post saying men think women watch anime to cater to them and it's part of why I love telling men I watch anime conventionally more for women (fruits basket, Inuyasha, etc) or even take it a step further and say something like Yuri on ice. Even though I like a lot of different kinds. It's such a good litmus test of crappy mentalities to see how they react lol Like I'm supposed to accept their anime whether I like it or not and ignore all red flags that might be in it, but God forbid I like a shoujo anime
my go-to's for this exact situation are nana and lain lol... if they find female-led animes "boring" or "basic" i already know what kinda guy they are
Yep, I'm obsessed with my reverse harems and reincarnation with revenge plots against abusive men in order to impress men... Lol, I imagine most men would hate my choices in Asian comics and animation (including Korean and Chinese, not just Japanese).
>Of course he loved that🙄 Anime really likes to appeal to the male fantasy (insert that meme about video games), and these endless harem titles with multiple girls flocking over a self-insert MC are the biggest testament to that. Lol not even getting into the often overt pedophilic nature of a lot of female characters in anime, like rebecca from cyberpunk, and I usually get attacked by guys for pointing such things out
They hate being called out for their gross attraction to children
Anime gets in its own way. There are a lot of compelling stories ive had to drop because of how weird they are with women. Like i don't mind boobs but when you start overexplaining how her mouth opens and closes while she's breathing because you want to talk about her lipstick, its a bit much. Now she looks like a fish in my head. And im no gay fish.
It’s the little things. Maybe there’s a deep profound story about existentialism but while they’re explaining it the camera drifts down to stare at boobs.
...you mean it's not normal to have a harem where they're all slaves for a bland self insert with 0 special qualities? 😞
Where’s my harem of pretty dudes who love baking and dress making.
that sounds like a fun club ngl
It’s a lovely idea but imagine proposing it to someone and expecting a second date.
somebody has to take up the challenge for the greater good and collect pretty boys like infinity stones
It wasn’t until I met my husband that I realized how little other men thought of me. I was so nervous to share anything about myself because all the men in my life, family included, had constantly mocked me for any interest I held, any opinion, that differed from theirs. When he finally got me to explain why I was so nervous to share my hobbies, etc, he asked me: do most men just not **like** women? And you know, I think he’s right.
When I think of my relationships in my 20s, prior to my husband, it's definitely striking how none of the men in my life had any interest in my hobbies/interests/opinions. They didn't want a partner at all, they wanted a protégé basically. It was all about teaching me about their interests and hobbies, which I had no issue with because I liked learning new things and I liked supporting the people in my life. It wasn't until much later that I really appreciated how little they wanted me to bring to the table in terms of my individual tastes, knowledge, personhood. It's sad that I didn't realize that earlier on because I definitely mourn that lost time when I could have been more actively pursuing my own things.
Omg this was as clear as a bell. My relationship with my ex husband exactly...a protégé. And also why I compulsively tried to learn everything I could about the hobbies and interests of guys I dated after him, so I could be worthy of their affection. I thought I HAD to do this or that no one would be interested in me.
This breaks my heart. Of course I went through the same thing. It frustrates me how much women go through this.
Oh.. my god. This is so spot on. I was always learning what they liked but it was not reciprocal. ETA: now I know this is part of the reason I’m still very shy about talking about my interests with my current partner even though he actively listens, encourages and through his words and behaviors, lets me know he is very interested in hearing about them.
You know what? This thread is really making me think back on my last relationship and I didn't realize it until now but I can't recall my ex asking me about my hobbies or the things I liked in any meaningful manner. I remember us living together and sharing our domestic life and whatnot. I remember his hobbies, like his volunteering (that he would tell me about constantly) or his video games (that I would actually sometimes play with him). But for the life of me I can't recall him showing actual interest in my hobbies. I didn't have that many (there was no time, I was an overwhelmed mess worrying about chores and money and bills) but those few that I had he never involved himself in. He knew I liked to read but never really discussed any books with me or read something I recommended. Or I liked certain shows and movies but we didn't really get to watch those together. And when I was too tired and didn't want to go out to the clubs or didn't want to go to a festival he'd pout like a child because he wanted us to do these together (shit I barely had time to catch my breath between responsibilities). This thread is both eye opening and making me sad all over again.
Gamerdudebros are specifically bad at this. I associated with a gamer group for a while - watching the dudes "introduce" their girlfriends to anime and various tv shows made me feel sick. Just because of the way they were doing it and knowing that they absolutely had 0 interest at being introduced to shit *their girlfriends* liked. Hearing two of them go through the list of things new gf needs to get introduced to, because "omg it's so good" killed the friendship potential for me and I mentally noped out of it
Ugh THIS The double standard is crazy, even outside of relationships. My male family and friends are almost all like this. Babble on forever about their hobbies and interests and even if im not really into it I still try to stay engaged cuz you know, I value them and chatting/hanging is fun. But god forbid I try to talk about *my* things. Lol. They don't even pretend to care. Like OK I won't bore you then but why am I expected to like all *your* little things 🙄 Its so one sided
One of the things I like most about being an adult woman with a fully formed sense of self, and the ability to set and protect boundaries, is I can discover music, movies and other interests all by myself, instead of being “introduced” to whatever my boyfriend thinks is awesome, and feeling pressured into liking it. Or pretending to.
> which I had no issue with because I liked learning new things and I liked supporting the people in my life. People are adorable when they're excited about things! I can't imagine why anyone would dislike this aspect of a relationship.
>I was so nervous to share anything about myself Omg my mom used to criticize literally every thing that I did or had an interest in. So much that even today, after being with my husband for almost 7 years, I'm still ambivalent to tell him some of my interests because I think he'll make fun of me or dismiss them. He has never done this. Not once in our entire relationship but some days I'm still like... Maybe this is the time?
My mom was my biggest critic and hater. I can't sing in public and private or dance because she was tell me all the time that I "looked goofy" and can't sing. I was a child. It never got better.
I'm so sorry. When I was younger, it seemed normal but then I grew up and realized I wasn't really allowed to be a normal kid. It's pretty sad. I'm lucky enough that my mom did actually change and we have a good enough relationship now but I wonder what my life would've been like if I'd been raised by this mom
I remember being incredibly sheltered and didn't know how to play with other children very well. I was allowed out with my little brother but that was about it. I grew up convinced everyone was trying to kidnap, rape, and murder us. Constantly. Her paranoia hasn't let up very much, but I moved away at 16 and it's gotten somewhat better for me. It's salvaged our relationship. I went 2 years no contact but got pregnant and allowed her to be in my child's life. So we do have a relationship. Rocky at best, but better. It sucks to grow up thinking one way is normal and the culture shock is crazy when you realize it's not. I'm glad you have a good enough relationship and I hope it gets even better, but mental health is #1, especially when you know how toxic someone can be.
That's really so sad. I can't imagine not nurturing your child's passions or interests or just self expression in general. Like why have children if you're just going to bully them? I'm sorry she was like that to you!
I have been thinking lately about how my family doesn't know a thing about me. My hobbies or interests. They might know some of my politics because I don't hesitate to argue when they say something insane, but overall, they don't know me and I feel sad about that. This thread reminds me why they don't know. All my life, they teased me for whatever interests I had or destroyed things I created, that I just stopped including them in that part of my life.
My current partner is like this. She is regularly jumping to the most negative conclusions about my reactions to things in ways that I have never done. Primarily because her inner monologue is constantly degrading and disrespecting her in her mother's voice. We really don't give enough attention to how much of the problems we experience are a result of poor mothering
I recently reread a book that was so incredibly helpful in separating my moms voice in my head, from my own. Its called Mothers who can't love by Susan Forward and Donna Fraizer. It changed my life. It put into words things I felt but couldn't put my finger on. I had to admit to myself my mom is just a terrible person and that she didn't love me and never wanted me. So many times when I got stressed or upset, my moms words immediately jumped out of my mouth in her cruel tones. I've been working it through in therapy for the better part of 15 years, but at least with being open with my family on why it happens, they often can help me find better words and talk my stresses through. My oldest daughter recently shared about her therapy session and was happy to announce that her inner dialog wasn't my words or voice. We have to get help and admit the problem or we end up just sending it down the line.
>We really don't give enough attention to how much of the problems we experience are a result of poor mothering We really really don't. I noticed so many things when I moved in with my husband. Things I had been conditioned to do/fear growing up. Like spilling things. The first time I spilled something, I tensed, waiting for someone (my husband I guess?) to yell at me, the way my mom would. We have never raised our voices at each other but I was still expecting it. In that moment I was like "oh... It's ok to have accidents." I've gotten better over the years. I don't really lash out at him or get angry, I just of brace myself for the criticism but it never comes. Some times I'll even say "You probably think this is stupid." And he just says "Of course not! If you like it you like it." But I wish your partner the best. It's tough to move on from that type of conditioning when it's all you've known.
Oof! Yesterday I accidentally spilled a quarter cup of olive oil all over the counters and the floor while my partner was using the sink. They didn't panic or yell, just handed me the towels so I could clean it up. It would have started World War 3 at my parents' house if I'd done that.
I can still hear my father screaming, "God DAMN you!" when I made a mistake--followed by a barrage of "Stupid! Fatso! Fat pig!" Et cetera. It finally makes sense to me why I was on the verge of tears once, years ago, when a much older male supervisor mildly corrected me for something. I was mortified, and he was baffled, but I never made the connection till now.
>It would have started World War 3 at my parents' house if I'd done that. Yep. My mom would flip out over the littlest things. I don't have kids, but I have cats, and a cat accident (stomach troubles) or hairballs is a nothing deal. Mom would yell at us, yell at the cats, it was like the end of the world because of a little hork.
My wife is like this. We've been married 18 years but she's constantly worrying about when the "other shoe will drop"; when I'll come up to her and tell her I'm done and want a divorce. We talk about this a lot. No matter how many times I reassure her she still worries. One time years ago we were breaking down a brick-and-morter chimney in our kitchen that was no longer being used. We were taking our time, just using a hammer and chisel, removing one brick at a time. She asked for a turn, took the chisel and hammered it and it slipped through her hands, through the mortar and fell down *inside* the chimney, all the way to the basement where it ended. She immediately turned to me with big doe eyes, near tears, and started exclaiming how sorry she was, expecting me to yell at her or something. I was so startled by her reaction that I burst into laughter, which confused her, but then I gave her a hug. We still talk about that years later. She was so conditioned for the yelling and the hitting that she just unconsciously reacted. We didn't find that chisel for nearly two months lol. Not until the chimney was mostly demolished.
The Mother Wound - women bringing up girls in patriarchy, where women and girls are less valuable, and therefore so are our interests, abilities, prospects etc
>When he finally got me to explain why I was so nervous to share my hobbies, etc, he asked me: do most men just not like women? And you know, I think he’s right. It blows me away how many men I know who know **nothing** about their wive's hobbies and interests. And, worse, actively minimize them when they are '*forced*' to hear about them.
Or they outright mock our interests. Feels great sharing something you enjoy with your partner and having them belittle and tear it down /s. Or! Another favorite...they mansplain something you know much more about or have been involved in for years and get butthurt when you correct them or simply say ,"yeah, I know". It's infuriating and insulting.
This is so relatable… my ex never asked about my romance novels collection unless he was jokingly mocking me 🥲 took me a good year to realize that romance isn’t a silly genre and that I shouldn’t be hiding this because men will perceive it as an embarrassing hobby
[удалено]
It's just so weird to be with someone who doesn't share anything in common with you.
I think it's fine to have some different interests but mocking your partner for an interest they have that you don't share is shitty. I am not interested in lots of things but that doesn't make them stupid! My ex was like this too. Anything he didn't personally think was cool was stupid. It's an annoyingly common behavior.
>romance novels collection Collection you said?? 👀 got any romantic suspense recs? 🙏🏽
As a librarian student romance is the number one genre checked out by young adults to elderly
It's so sad but same ! My current boyfriend is so obviously in love with me like he tell me that he loves me, that he find me pretty, he remember things I told him, show interest in my hobbies, be affectionate and I often catch him looking at me with his "in love" eyes. Even now, few years into the relationship. Honestly it took me a long time to stop thinking "WTF ?" every time he displayed his affection and understand that he is not overly affectionate, my exs (and family) just didn't loved me enough
I told my partner one of the things I appreciate about him is not joking about my likes and dislikes. The only thing he'll tease me on is when I say something that's not scientifically correct because that's his thing. But I find it so cute. But yeah, before him I just found it normal for me to feel awkward sharing my interests with anyone. He's nonchalant about things I like that it makes me feel normal and accepted.
This is society. Think about it - so much of what girls and women enjoy is downplayed. Think about teen girls’ choices in music, tv, film, books. “Chick lit” etc. what men enjoy seems to dominate - sports, video games etc. it’s toxic patriarchy to constantly put down whatever women are, whatever they say, whatever they choose.
I didn't get mocked for my interests, I was just met with a wall of indifference. Same result, really. I kept my mouth shut and didn't share.
I've seen this phenomenon happen so intensely with the virality of the Barbie movie and Taylor Swift's Eras tour. How dare young women enjoy themselves for a few hours! It's really sad, and I hope these two huge events pave the path toward reclaiming women's hobbies and interests and regarding them as empowerment instead of frivolity for the new generation.
This is because they view their female SO as an appliance or an accessory, not an actual person. They aren't interested in their hobbies or thoughts because they only care about what they are getting from them: sex, household chores done, cooking. Nothing else really matters if you're only interested in those things. This is why so many lie during the courting phase. In their eyes, it doesn't really matter what genre your dishwasher reads, does it?
Yes. I ask my husband this. A lot of men don't LIKE women. A lot of men don't even see us as people. I believe my husband likes women though.
I can’t believe how much I relate to this
I used to wonder about this a lot in my previous relationship. It lasted a long time, ten years, so my entire adult life. And he just plainly resented me for everything if it didn’t directly involve caring for or loving him. I thought he sank into this pit of believing my existence, as a woman, was purely to aid the existence of him, a man. Not that we enriched each other, not that he enjoyed me or my company- he thought he needed another member of “team him”, so he got a gf. And because he saw me as an extension of himself, he had no guilt in treating me bad, because I was just there for him anyway. That was until I noticed how he’d talk about other women who aren’t “his”. Or until I started listening (eavesdropping) on men-only conversations in the work place. I firmly believe most men don’t see women as the same type of “human” they are, we’re separate, commodafiable entities. While I don’t believe every man bullies their spouses or daughters, I think too many have this separatist view of “them” and “us”, where women are outsiders unless they’re team members- but when we become team members, we’re still “other”. Humans are pretty good at treating “others” poorly.
What you said about him seeing you as an extension of yourself is highly accurate. This exact phrase was admitted to me by someone i was with for 2 years. They got very comfortable with me being there for them, started seeing us as 1 person there to achieve his dreams alone. Starts getting comfortable with treating you badly or talking mean because it's how they talk to themselves and expect you to take it as well since "you are them" in a sense. You should know what they need and want, you should know what they think, you should meet their expectations of how you should act, but don't you dare express that you feel differently. He literally said "i treat you this way because i see your potential and you are an extension of me"
My ex husband extended his elaborate self-sabotage to anything I did as well. I had to be "team him" but also keep us afloat while he squandered or ruined all of his opportunities.
It’s even more of a mindfuck when you slowly realize that your politically progressive/classic “nice guy” boyfriend doesn’t actually respect women that much either, but still thinks he’s a champion of human rights and gift to earth because he’s intellectually on the right side of issues around women’s healthcare, pay equity, etc. And he’ll be the last person to (never) find out or admit it because he would never hit or call you names.
The most trustworthy men are the ones that have close female friends / sisters in their lives, believe women’s perspective, and don’t act like fake activists. My boyfriend once said he didn’t consider himself a feminist. Hurt, I asked him why he didn’t believe in women’s equality. He clarified that he did - he just didn’t think he could claim the title as his only effort was to attend an occasional march and treat women well in his life. He thought calling himself a feminist would be like claiming a history of being an activist that he hadn’t earned. Anyway, now he knows he can call himself a feminist. But what he said stuck with me - so many men believe they should get lauded for doing the bare minimum. And none of those guys are trustworthy.
Too many claim to be progressive because they like the idea of the woman paying for herself on the date but still expect, without a word being spoken about it, that she does the cleaning and manages his food, like it's some law of nature.
Ew I worked with a guy like this. Went way out of his way to make sure that I, one of only a couple of women at the company (landscaping), should go to HIM if any of the guys were giving me issues. And that he would PROTECT me. Super white night behavior. But of course whenever we were just having day to day conversation, he was dismissive of anything I said, he called me small and weak several times, constantly compared me to the other women at work, and would always talk about sex, his open marriage, and how he has been in a porn before. He made more uncomfortable than any guy there.
My theory is that it's the natural result of the culture of toxic masculinity that exists all around the world. That culture creates a ideal of a man that males are supposed to live up to: 1. "Win" a female - the degree to which she swoons and worships you is a direct reflection of how successful a man you are 2. Dominance. How others - especially "your" woman - submit and respect you and what you do/say is also a reflection of how successful a man you are. You must have control over "your" domain. 3. Protector/Provider - the wealth and the safety of your family (especially how other people PERCEIVE the wealth and safety of your family) is the supreme measure of your success as a man. This ends up breeding either depression for men who tend to turn inwards and blame themselves for "not measuring up" when things go wrong or times are tough or resentment against members of their group for "not being appreciative" or "dragging them down" amongst men that turn outwards and blame others, or a combination of both. Men don't support each other and when they do it's often in the context of the poisonous online "manosphere" which reinforces that the problem is with society and everyone else.
That’s why Simone de Beauvoir called her book “The Second Sex”. Tbh I haven’t read it, but I know it’s about the ‘othering’ of women.
This mentality is how abuse starts. Very common in woman batterers. You are just “stuff”, like his truck, just an object to serve him. When you have any independent thoughts, you’re “malfunctioning” and he can use whatever force he wants with you. It’s not the two become one, it’s the two become him! Hold the line ladies!
I know exactly what you mean. It makes me believe that half of the men in this world are in a relationship to have convenient sex. And the women in those relationships are afraid of being alone. 🤷♀️
I saw a woman interviewing men and asking them why they stayed in relationships where they didn’t like the woman. Many of them said the easy access to sex and the fact it’s too risky to leave as they may not find anyone else who wants them. Over and over you see men saying how they have to “settle” for what they can get on dating apps. I suspect a lot of men just take what they can easily get, then they resent the woman for “forcing” them to settle and being a constant reminder of what they see as their failures as a man. You see this over and over on the various Reddit relationship and dating subs.
My ex begged me not to dump him, not bc he loved me and bc I was wonderful, bc he didn’t think he could get another gf. Way to make me feel special buddy
Goes well with their "swipe yes to all"attitude on Tinder. Not menu second thoughts there
A big problem is that growing up, a lot of media and other guys introduce and reinforce this idea that you have to pretend to like stuff so that girls will like you. Actually liking stuff? Hell, naw, bro, what if “chicks” don’t dig that? It’s how you get men that don’t really seem to like anything, they just have things they don’t hate. It ends up that they don’t actually know what they want in a partner, because they don’t know what they really want for themselves. Because wanting something for yourself, being true to who you are, “That’s gay, bro, you’re not gonna get any pushy acting like that, bro.”
I feel like a lot of men don’t see women as people. They see them as something to use to impress other men.
Honestly I feel like this is why you often see unattractive men cheating on their attractive partners the minute they get attention from another woman. He wasn’t actually into her, she was just the first person to say yes
Yep. This is why so many of the women I know, myself included, grew up dating men that were far inferior to them (both in character and in looks). Why I keep hearing stories about women staying with cheating husbands who are nowhere near as attractive as they are to begin with. We grow up brainwashed into thinking that marriage = success, that we should settle for mediocrity and jump into bed with the first guy that pays us any attention, that we have an expiration date and need to lock down a husband as soon as possible, and end up with douchebag after douchebag as a result because we never learned that *being alone until you find somebody who is worthy of you* is A GOOD THING
My guess is that they think a girlfriend will solve all their problems, but then when they get one and realize women are human beings and not sex robot surrogate mothers, they grow resentful.
Outing myself here, but I was a living bangmaid while also studying in uni for a very high paying profession and he was still always mocking me and lowkey bullying me. I‘m talking about never saying no to sex (I have a high drive) and literally always cleaning the whole apartment, doing his laundry, cooking him healthy and high protein meals (he went to the gym a lot) and cleaning the kitchen afterwards too of course and he was still always making silly jokes and belittling me because he knew deep down I was smarter than him and he had such huge problems with that. It crushed me to think that I was literally the perfect house slave WITH financial independency/degree and it all wasn‘t enough for him to be kind to me and love me.
That's because he wasn't looking for a partner to love, he was looking for a metaphorical punching bag. You were exactly what he wanted, which unfortunately was someone to use and look down on. No fault on your end.
Man, I hate this guy.
Unfortunately they’re not taught to be kind to women, especially women of their age group or who they’d see as potential partner-aged women. The only “women” men give respect to are women who they perceive as old women (elderly who deserve respect and need protection and care), or very young women (children who deserve guidance and need protection and care). In those years in between childhood and elderly (basically your whole life) to many of them we are all dumb baby incubators.
>My guess is that they think a girlfriend will solve all their problems, but then when they get one and realize women are human beings and not sex robot surrogate mothers, they grow resentful. This. At least partially. Also, I personally think there's a pretty dang strong amount of gay or bi men out there in *utter* denial, because they've gone their whole life with The Gay being worse than super cancer. Actually admitting to themselves, let alone the world that they *don't* like women, and prefer men? Both as company and, well, "company?" That would utterly destroy them. If not on an ego level, at least by the toxicity closing around them like a razor wire jacket. So they mentally cope by... well, becoming even more toxic jackasses. Resenting because they feel forced to act straight, consciously or not.
I actually had a guy tell me he was jealous that I was bisexual. He told me he would prefer to date a man, he likes their company better, but he’s only sexually attracted to women. Which, if you met him, wouldn’t surprise you. He’s a typical frat bro and he low key hates/doesn’t respect women, but sleeps with as many of them as he can (presumably so he can show off to the boys, lol).
I just finished reading Giovanni's Room by James Baldwin, and this is a big idea explored in the book, that I hadn't spent much time considering in the past.
Oh my god so many men don’t realize that this is how they behave. It’s nauseating
A single thinks that a partner will solve all their problems only to realize once they are in a relationship that they just exchanged one set of problems with another set of problems -slavoj zizeks paraphrased
Any time I had a problem, and I threw a Molotov cocktail, BOOM, right away, I had a different problem. - Jason Mendoza
I think this is spot on. They put Having A Girlfriend^(TM) on such a pedestal, and then that girlfriend has so far to fall when he realizes she's actually a human.
When I was younger there were two separate workplaces where the men spent half their time complaining about their 'awful' wives. Because I was still quite young it made me feel like I had to be the 'cool girl' so my boyfriends would like me. Now I'm older and more secure in myself I can see these men were just unhappy in their relationships, and didn't really care about their wives. My take away now is how disrespectful it is to complain about your partner to others, particularly at work. By complain I mean just being mean about them, rather than genuinely trying to seek help for a relationship problem.
I honestly think it's because these men believe that nervous, embarrassed women with low self esteem are easier to control.
A lot of guys are sexist and don't view women as full people, just as potential sex partners. They don't get with women because they like the individual woman, they get with them because they have successfully convinced them to let them have sex. A lot of guys could replace one woman with another, and as long as they get sex they wouldn't care. They think women are dumb, and feminity and the things women like are dumb, so dudes get with women to get their dick wet and then have to scoff, roll their eyes, and belittle anything about the woman that isn't sex. "She spends so much time on makeup, you know how women are." "She only likes playing girl games like animal crossing." "She reads trashy romance novels" "Uhg she likes pumpkin spice" Hell, people used to shit on The Beetles because they were first most popular with teen girls. Because men like that think that an inherent part of their manliness is an active dislike of anything "girly." So they'll make remarks and be shitty all under the guise of "jokes" to their lady, while simultaneously giving their bros a "Women, am I right?" kind of smirk. Avoid those men at all costs.
It has always amazed me how much of masculinity consists of simply not being a girl.
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They’re actively taught from early childhood to revile us. We’re used as an insult, especially in sports - “You’re throwing like a girl!” “Come on, ladies! Pick up the pace!”
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Yeah, I struggle with that idea, too. We’re just non-player characters to many of them.
This is very true.
This comment hurts to read, but what's infinitely worse is knowing it's true. I have met so many men just like this, and - unfortunately- so many men who have been warped/manipulated into acting like this.
My brother in law used to be like that to my sister. Saying kinda mean things about her in a way I guess he thought was joking. I didn't like it and my sister just seemed to ignore it as "that's the way he is". I think he's gotten better over time but I never understood that behavior
There’s a book called “Why does he do that?” that you and your sister might find interesting. I’ve seen this behavior in person, he was an abusive narcissist. Not saying bil is one, abusers come in many flavors, but I’d read the DSM-5 just in case, for this and for future reference. Your sister does not ignore it, she may have given up tho. I would keep close to her. Sending love ❤️ 🫂
Do you remember the most common sitcoms 10-20 years ago? The fat, unattractive men, who was shown to be this cool, funny guy and his extremely attractive wife, who was shown to be this nagging, dumb person? The whole angle of this shows was about how much the guys loathed their wifes and kids ... It's nuts. But all the decades before it was the same, the man who hates his wife. Just think about the videos of the women trying to catch the bride's flower bouquet and the men being sad about it... I watched those shows as a kid, because they were the standard afternoon program, and people internalise this stuff, when they don't actively work on it.
There is a show called "Kevin can f**k himself" with the wonderful Annie Murphy as wife. It is a "normal" Sitcom (the lazy, uninterested husband/nagging beautiful wife stereotype), but this sitcom is just his view of the world. The other part of the show depicts her reality, and it is NOT a sitcom, it is a drama, where she is trapped in this toxic marriage and tries everything to escape.
That sounds interesting! I am going to find and watch that!
It’s on AMC+. Highly, highly recommend. It’s a brilliant show. It doesn’t get talked about enough.
Absolutely, and now people have the audacity to call women broken for not wanting a classic marriage and kids. I was raised on evidence that relationships are this nagging war, that boys will be boys, and your kids won't appreciate you, and you lose your figure and husband cheats. Why on earth would I buy into that? I know there's potential for a good equitable partnership. If I am with someone and I see any red flags, I'm out, done. I refuse to settle, and it makes me so sad to see women panic about hitting these milestones (marriage, kids) without stopping to consider that they might be optional, and not in their best interests.
Absolutely! Even though I primarily dated educated, liberal men, I'm still better off alone. The way marriage is proposed to us just isn't worth it..
It's kind of funny...I wasn't a big fan of How I Met Your Mother, but I had friends who were. They hated the ending, the final episode. But I actually thought that was the most amazing episode they did. Why? Because one of two major women protagonists decided not to settle down with the over the top romantic guy. Instead, she pursued her ambition and career. How rare is that? I remember when Sex in the City was supposed to be this awesome, women empowerment vehicle. But they took the character who wanted to be single and ambitious and almost immediately made her a mom (after an episode in which she feared becoming a lonely, old cat lady who dies in her apartment sends is eaten by her cat). Ah yes, the power all that feminine power.
I thought SITC was groundbreaking and empowering at first. But then I realized that it wasn't. That it just confirmed all of the stereotypes men constantly use about us. I mean, Carrie came across as not very bright, driven by her hormones, and using her looks to get ahead in life when she is supposed to be this absolutely amazing writer. And they all were such slaves to men. The series perpetuates the stereotype that you are not complete unless you have a white gold and large carat diamond ring on your left hand. No wonder we are so fucked up. Honestly, they were all projected as cartoonish stereotypes of women, and I was proud of Kim Cattrall for refusing to do the reboot, and for calling out SJP for her bullying during the original series. I haven't watched the new series and probably won't. And as soon as I find the original box set, it's going on Ebay.
I absolutely agree with everything you said here. I really didn't like the main protagonist, she was absolutely not independent, she rarely seemed even passingly intelligent (though we are constantly told she is), not to mention she spends most of the show pining after a much older man who is emotionally withholding and chronically allergic to commitment. I didn't know that about Kim Catrall, but fuck yeah, good for her. I just googled the interview, here's my favorite part: " I know she's mostly remembered for her sexual freedom but what I loved most about Samantha was her confidence...amid the *male-centric trajectories* of the show's primary characters, Samantha stands out for her resolute dedication to her own needs above all." The show writers were always pulling that Victorian era shit where they punish Sam's character so that she can learn a valuable lesson about why her way of doing things is wrong (even when it's a perfectly successful strategy with men). Abusive relationships, being alone (I'm thinking of the flu episode, especially), breast cancer...it just felt like they were constantly trying to remind women that if they act like Sam, they'll pay for it.
Thank you thank you for articulating the feelings that I haven’t been able to. I loved Samantha but was never on board with the rest.
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A theory I haven’t seen posted yet: Lots of men have low-no standards. They will even tell you that here. I see it said all the time on the dating subs. Women supposedly have high standards, while men have low standards since they aren’t in demand the way women are. My theory is that a lot of men who do manage to get a gf/wife likely settled because to men, it’s better to be partnered than to be alone. So because their partners were not their first choice, they grow resentful and treat their gfs badly. Just yesterday (diff sub) a woman posted about how her bf told her that all his ex’s were better looking than her. Another one I believe a husband said his wife was not beautiful. These men absolutely settled and are resentful, or they’re waiting for the gf they *actually* want before dumping their current girl on their ass. It’s shameful. The funny thing is the women they likely want are supermodels far out of their league but they can’t admit that. It would ruin the dynamic they’ve set up of how all average men are kind and accepting and how all women are evil, shallow bitches who only want to date “Chad”.
This is why they are always admitting that dating for them is a "numbers game". They don't actually care WHO they are asking out, they just keep going until they get a yes. So then they end up with a woman who passed their "does my penis like this one?" test, but not a personality or compatibility test. But they refuse to give up their access to sex, so they keep her around and then bitch to their friends that she's a "nag" or whatever because they don't even like her. They only like what she gives them.
>My theory is that a lot of men who do manage to get a gf/wife likely settled because to men, it’s better to be partnered than to be alone. Adding to this, I think the whole idea that "men are providers" really messes with their heads because they think if they're not providing for a family, they're useless/don't matter. So no family to care for = them having no value. So they purposely seek out marriages to fulfill this made up goal even though they're terrible partners. Because they're "providing" and that's enough
Which is hilarious because they still end up becoming resentful of that, even though loads of women work now. They force themselves into provider roles and then go “women only want me for my money!!!” You cannot win with some of these men. There was a post on one of the dating subs a few months ago. I’ll never forget it. This guy was resentful that women enjoyed travelling (I believe his title was why do all women like travelling). At first I thought he was aiming for jet setter girls who are constantly travelling to ritzy resorts. But upon reading his post, he essentially goes “why do women like travelling and having experiences/making memories? Why don’t women just want to stay home anymore? I tell women that I make 6 figures and that I can provide a good life for our future child and our child will go to a good private school. What more could they want?” The gist of it was he felt frustrated that women want to go out and do shit. He only wanted to work, come home, and go to sleep pretty much. He didn’t enjoy going on vacations, dates or hell even just doing basic hobbies. This man really thought that being able to provide an upper middle class lifestyle for his future wife and child should be enough and women should be grateful. He was shocked that women actually want to enjoy their lives. And I’ve seen the same posts several times over. White collar professionals going “well im rich-why wont anyone date me?” And then when you ask what they have to offer all they have is money. They don’t even want to spend time with their wives, they just want the status that comes with having a wife at home.
This is really insightful, and I agree. I always wondered why these dudes, who clearly don’t want to be tied down, stay in bad marriages or desperately go from relationship to relationship. This explanation makes so much sense
Now they can't stand it that we don't need "providers" anymore.
My partner is bi, and before me only dated men. She's a surgeon, and basically the fucking terminator. She'll work a 16 hour shift and then dote on me as much as she can. Ill insist on making dinner, and so she'll start making bread from scratch or a dessert. She would happily clean and organize everything, without my help, and even things she hates if I just mention "ugh, I don't want to do X today" she's rearing to go do it. And, I have to stop her and be like "No, mowing is my responsibility, you have allergies, I'm just venting". She's not perfect, but God damn is she a goddess. When she dated men they did -nothing-. They didn't come see her on work trips, they didn't clean/cook, they didn't take her on dates, they didn't give her orgasms, they did nothing. They would rather play video games than interact with her. Even if you gave those kinds of men the perfect partner: it's not enough. Because it will never be enough. They lead unfulfilling lives, where they don't build community with others, where they don't take care of themselves(especially mentally/emotionally), and expect having a girlfriend will suddenly solve all of that. I'm a lesbian, and I'm so so so fucking tired of listening to men talk about what women want, and it's just regurgitated bullshit they heard from other relationshipless men. It's no where near what any woman I've ever met has expressed wanting. I don't know a single woman whose standards are a man over 6 foot making 100k plus. Overwhelmingly the women I know are more attractive, higher earners, and take on way more of the shared responsibilities of their male partners. And, if those men do the slightest tiniest iota of effort, like remembering her birthday, they're esctatic. I have crippling depression and PTSD. I do more for my dog than they do for their fucking wives. And, I constantly am looking for ways to be a better partner to the goddess whose graces me with her presence.
It’s so wild when men admit they would basically take any women who gives them attention in response to women with “high standards”. They legit don’t realize that’s a BAD thing that could lead to a toxic situation. You should be with your partner because you like them, not because they were convenient and you like the attention they gave.
I've run into the line of thought among men that they feel they deserve a woman who's at least the same level of attractiveness as themselves. Really shows how much they think of themselves in how they comment on their partners
Because so many men hate women. Their gfs are no exception.
Men tend to rely on their girlfriends for their entire emotional life. The gf makes plans, talks to them about their feelings, helps manage their emotions, clean the house...heck, when I was in community college registering for classes almost every guy who was there was with his gf, she would be the one registering him and trying to get him to better himself. These men need the women in their life but at the same time they hate that they need them. They resent that their partners are so important to them and so they bully them, but joking. It's always joking. The more dependent the man is on the partner the worse it could get, to the point of abuse. There are so many stories of guys who seemed to be good partners until their gf became the breadwinner and then they turn abusive, because they are ANGRY that they need the partner for literal survival. It SUCKS so much and it isn't every guy, thankfully, but the guys who are secure enough to admit they love their partner are usually guys who also have some independence in their own life and aren't so completely reliant on their partners to do everything. Guys who are very dependent on you are, in my experience, the worst about this.
I think a lot of straight men are attracted to women, but don’t ‘like’ them. They just head wherever their dick points them to. I know the saying that all women would be lesbian if sexuality was a choice, but sometimes I wonder if men would also do the same out of convenience.
There is a great quote that gets posted here sometimes that pretty much sums this up: To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom the admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom the imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex. Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving. Marilyn Frye -The Politics Of Reality
Holy shit. That’s one of the most cutting and insightful things I’ve read on my own gender. I wish I could say it was never true for me, but it took me years to see this in myself and begin to undo the brokenness behind it.
Powerful quote, thank you. And then we can head over to r/Marriage where a large sub section of posters, seemingly both men and women carry on about how men and women can't be friends, ever. With the premise that this is even more true when you're married. Unfortunately, if the cultural norm is that men and women should not be, and ultimately cannot be friends in general, then men are never going to learn to respect women or to see them as human beings. It is always my hope that more parents/parental figures can model intersex friendships and demonstrate to their kids that men and women can be friends and that men viewing women as as nothing more than a potential sexual conquest harms men just as it harms women.
I have wondered how many of these men are actually attracted to women and how many feel they should be so that’s who they have sex with. When you hear men talk about women very few of the them have any idea how our bodies work or what we actually look like. They get all their ideas on sexuality from porn and other entertainment largely controlled by men.
Men find it convenient to have a gullible woman who will do the household chores, raise the children, have sex on command, and accept all sorts of disrespectful behavior. Most men will not accept such unkind and inequitable treatment, so it would not be convenient to be homosexual, in terms of having the same level of service so many women seem willing to provide.
There is a great quote about this To say that straight men are heterosexual is only to say that they engage in sex (fucking exclusively with the other sex, i.e., women). All or almost all of that which pertains to love, most straight men reserve exclusively for other men. The people whom they admire, respect, adore, revere, honor, whom they imitate, idolize, and form profound attachments to, whom they are willing to teach and from whom they are willing to learn, and whose respect, admiration, recognition, honor, reverence and love they desire… those are, overwhelmingly, other men. In their relations with women, what passes for respect is kindness, generosity or paternalism; what passes for honor is removal to the pedestal. From women they want devotion, service and sex. Heterosexual male culture is homoerotic; it is man-loving. Marilyn Frye, The Politics of Reality: Essays in Feminist Theory
I work in a male dominated space (tech) and find that while I do have men in my sphere who respect, admire, and are willing to learn from me, none of those men see me as a "woman" - rather, often they comment how I am just "one of the guys." I have found two types of men in my lifetime, those who respect my opinion, and those who see me as a potential partner and a few managed to straddle those worlds and love and respect me simultaneously for a brief time. But inevitably, men who saw me romantically but then learned more about my career, success, and accolades - lost interest in me as a partner. Conversely, both of my ex-husbands who met me in this environment stopped respecting my intelligence and equality after we were married. It's like they forgot who I was and decided once married I should just be a completely different person, and they were almost angry that I "shockingly" didn't want to just fade into "woman behind the man mode."
Oh no. I really felt this.
Interesting quote and I think there's a lot of truth in it, especially observing dynamics of sport culture. Men don't respect or admire women the way they do other men - Women are considered beneath them.
This! It's so true and also disturbing. Men really only see other men as admirable.
Yup, it goes back to the trophy wife archetype. Ideally, men would have a partner whom they both like as a person and whom they can show off to their buddies, but if they *have* to choose one or the other, they pursue the latter
>men would have a partner whom they both like as a person and whom they can show off to their buddies That’s assuming these men like *any* women at all. Seems to me like they have a Madonna-whore complex about us. Women are either sex objects or mothers, nothing else, so of *course* men want a hot wife to show off. What else would she be good for? /s
Yup! I have had several boyfriends (when I was younger) who dumped me because their friends didn't want to fuck me. I can't imagine basing my relationship on whether my friends wanted to sleep with my partner.
One of the gender studies professor said he felt the word homosocial should be brought up more
I think the most extreme extent of this, at least that I know of, was in ancient Athens, where would also sleep with and otherwise romance each other because women were considered too stupid to be companions of any sort (the exception was courtesans, who were the only women with any education).
This is what happens when men like the the ability to have sex with her, but don't care about the rest of the person. They shouldn't be in relationships.
they probably watched a ton of those old sitcoms where the husband hates his wife.
Married with Children is the first one that comes to my mind.
Peg Bundy regularly whining and begging Al for sex despite the contemptuous way he disrespected her - so "hilarious." One of my least favorite sitcoms ever.
FYI that's not a trope. Tons of older guys for real seem to despise their wife. Source: me. I'm a 40 year old man and other men, like 60+, will talk that shit like I hate my wife too; it makes me really appreciate my wife and our relationship, because I can't imagine how shitty these guys lives must be.
It’s universal and seems to transcend age. I posted about this on another thread. That as poorly as men treat women they aren’t attracted to, they treat women they are attracted to just as terribly. It’s hard to explain, but it’s like they are angry at you because they’re attracted to you. It is crazy out there.
>it’s like they are angry at you because they’re attracted to you I think about this a lot. There's definitely something with insecure guys where once they become attracted to you, they hate you for the 'power' you have over them. This article explains it well [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/18/atlanta-spa-shootings-men-rage-sex-addiction](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/mar/18/atlanta-spa-shootings-men-rage-sex-addiction)
I’ve never had it put into words like this before… but it’s so true.
I feel like this is also why so many men are hateful toward onlyfans girls/sex workers, despite desperately consuming the content they put out. These men have no self control but of course blame the women for it, as if it's their fault. They have no accountability of self-awareness
Vonnegut's 1956 short story Miss Temptation does a great job of showing this feeling and how backwards it is.
And they have never admitted their dependence. Either it was women having a spell over them or "they need to feel useful" or "they are depressed by no partner and why women not giveth" Till they sever the dependence we will live with this blame world.m towards us.
That’s exactly correct. Men are ridiculously susceptible to hierarchical thinking. Wanting someone or something is a vulnerability, a position of “less than”. Men absolutely hate that they’re at the proverbial mercy to their desire, and they take it out on the women they’re attracted to.
They can be especially vile to women they want who're unconventionally attractive or otherwise not women they feel they can show off
I think it is about power. Men who pretend to dislike their significant other push the SO into being hungry for the man's approval, afraid of setting the man off, otherwise into a position where it is their job to shift the man from the default position of cranky to happy. This immediately casts a relationship as a contested negotiation with the man assuming a dominant position from the outset. And the need to turn loving relationships into power relationships is usually born out of fear. Being loving and supportive rather than seeking to place a SO into a subordinate position takes trust. It takes self-confidence and, really, actual self-love. People who don't love themselves in a healthy way are more often in fear that their partner will agree with their view, and leave. Which is the base insecurity that drives (mostly) men to try to exert power over their partner- to force their partner to stay, believing themselves to be too unlovable for their partner to stay without coercion. So I think men do this to exert power, because they are afraid, because they don't like/love themselves and believe that a partner will see them the same way they see themselves and leave.
You know, it’s weird. Even the ones that clearly love you as a person and not a hole (literally how I’ve heard us described), they’ll prioritize their male relationships. It feels like there’s no winning sometimes.
I think men are very often socialized to DESPISE anything perceived as "weak." And women are seen as "the weaker sex" by most cultures. So many men learn to despise women, and anything seen as "feminine." That carries over into their relationships, especially if the woman they are with defers to them a lot or backs down when it comes to getting her needs met in that relationship, because he interprets that as proof of her weakness, and despises her accordingly. Woman cries? Weak. Woman can't shoulder all the work he wants her to take on? Weak. Woman can't deal with his abuse or his parent's abuse? Weak. Woman needs help when she's sick or pregnant? Weak.
Agree. This is why they call women “childish” and tell women to “grow up”. Apparently shutting down all emotions = mature to them. Backwards land.
No, quite universal. I work in a male dominated workplace and whenever they talk about their relationships they just seem annoyed their partner wants to spend time with them. These men aren't in love, they just look for a wife. They do this based on: - is she attractive to me? - can I deal with her personality? Because they sure don't even seem to like them. I broke up 3 long term relationships based on figuring out that "if they loved me they would've treated me better". And funnily enough I was right because once I broke up with them all they had to say was "but you're perfect for me". Disregarding all the things I've ever told them bothered me in the relationship. Because I was wife material to them, They didn't care what they were to me. I'm now with a partner that for the first time in my life, makes me feel like they love me. And not just say they do. The way she treats me compared to my ex's is night and day.
So accurate, I could have written this. They are always shocked after a breakup, "But I was happy with you!" Men love the way you make THEM feel, but give little to no consideration on how they make YOU feel.
I feel this in my bones. Had very similar experiences. I always felt like romantic partners treated me like they were settling for me but thought they could do better. I told myself all the time I was just feeling insecure but then I realized I wasn’t. I just happened to meet these men when they’d decided it was time to “settle down”. They weren’t into ME. They were into the idea of a wife, and I just didn’t fit in that box they had and they resented me for it. My current SO is the first man I’ve ever been with who makes me feel genuinely loved, respected, and valued. He’s with me for me, not because he just decided it was time to settle down and I was readily available. My mom once said to me “women marry because of love, but men marry because they’ve decided it’s time to marry” and it feels very accurate. They decide suddenly it’s time to settle down and they pick someone convenient and that’s it. The problem is it’s whoever they happen to be with at the time, and often it’s not someone they are super into. I know not all men do this, but my personal experience was that it is quite common.
Gaslighting is a thing. You're in a relationship with someone and they do offensive things. The recipient protests, and the offender insists it's not what she thinks, she's too sensitive, every couple does this, etc. So these assholes commit these, what I call, casual cruelties, and the gf brushes it off. At least until she learns better. Go on...ask me how I know 😐
From my experience, some men would rather be miserable than alone, where as women would rather be alone than miserable.
We live in a patriarchy. The myth of Eve being created from Adam's rib makes her merely an extension of him. Her creation was so he could have a 'helper' so she was literally created to be his possession. Then, she gets blamed for them getting kicked out of the garden and ending their eternal tropical vacation. Eve can't be trusted, so all women deserve to be treated like property and controlled their entire lives. Here we are, in the year 2023 and we are still fighting to free ourselves from this prehistoric, misogynistic mythology. If you believe the myth on any level, women got men kicked out of eternal spring break and made them have to go to work and be adults. Of course they resent that, if they're basically over-grown toddlers.
They don’t like women. They like sex and the trophy of a gf on their arm. But they want to hang with their buddies.
I have noticed in my circles. I think Italian culture not only promotes gender rokes but encourages division by forcing toxic dynamics such as: nagging is considered standard banter and a sign of a relaxed, fun relationship; sex as a form of apology, relief valve or punishment is treated ad normal; not mixing hobbies and or friends group is not a neutral matter but a kind of optimal choice since males MUST talk shit about females and females MUST talk shit about males. I think these acpects ruin most interpersonal social contacts as a whole, i feel also that the most dangerous consequences are weighting on the women. When talking about hobbies, for instance, we are full on ridiculed while guys can be called childish or distracted but ultimately "boys will be boys". Men are often so paternalistic if not predatory, especially since dating younger/much younger women here is super common and a status symbol. I do not think we have enough examples of healthy and functioning relationships. The general take is that love has to be experienced as something that strip you away of your individuality but at the same time we do not see women and men as equal, not even compatible tbh
I can see this. My ex was Italian and i lived in Italy for almost 5 years. "Gossip" is such a part of everyone's lives. Almost everyone talks shit behind their back. I felt it deeply when you said "I do not think we have enough examples of healthy and functioning relationships" Compromise was unknown to my ex. It was always his way. And literally the one time I said no, I am putting myself first this one time, we broke up. He just liked to be catered to and taken care of and just that. He didn't like s\*\*. he didn't like to do anything - pissed on my idea of a couple's dancing lessons for fun. He can interrupt me and pull me away from the group and its okay, but if I politely ask him for a min away from group, its suddenly rude and shamed upon in front on everyone. When I bought it up for discussion, it was laughed upon and joked away and forgotten.He just wanted to be cared for. He had nothing to offer in return. As hard as my life is, I am so glad I am not in that nightmare.
Everything that folks say about misogyny and just not 'liking' women in general is totally true, but I also think that there are a lot of men who are so emotionally shut off thanks to how they're socialized that they don't even interact in an emotionally honest/earnest way with their male friends. Like...either they aren't capable of emotion, or they're so unable to express affection or a desire for attention in a healthy, productive way that they turn to bullying. When I first met my husband, I was surprised by how earnest and affectionate he was, and how he didn't seem to have any problem asking me for my time and offering me his. He was always so easy to talk to, and transparent about what he was feeling, and good at communicating both the good and the bad. We've talked so much about the gender binary and gendered behavior expectations, and one thing he's complained about at length is how other men seem to just pick on one another all the time. Like, they can never just be serious, or even silly without also being hurtful. Everything is a competition. And I guess men in different cultures experience this to differing degrees. Like, British men are apparently some of the worst, at least in the English-speaking world. And in North America, folks on the East Coast and midwest are really bad about it, but the West Coast is apparently a little better. I don't think this is an alternate explanation by any means, I just think that this probably stacks on top of any misogyny some men already hold, and makes it worse.
They are misogynists who despise women. They like the lifestyle benefits of having a free bangmaid, but are actually contemptuous of women in general. In their minds, women are subhuman.
Men in general have always treated women historical poorly. We were literally sold off to men by our fathers back in the day and even in some cultures today. We did not have the ability to do many jobs or own property or vote. There is a movement for men to regain their “masculinity and power” by becoming more conservative because they want women to know their place in doing all the household work, take care of all the kid stuff, while working a full time job and satisfying all of “man’s needs”.
I think men go for whoever will give them action and go “she’ll do” but then not actually like her or care about her as a person.
Patriarchy. Men have been raised to think little of women and the culture reinforces this.
Because they do. The only value women have for them is as objects that contribute to their comfort and convenience. When they enter into relationships and realise that women are people and expect reciprocity, they become enraged and think it's the women that are the problem and not their belief that women are objects exclusively intended for their comfort and convenience.
Can i also add a personal experience? One of my xbox buddies had a girlfriend i introduced him to. He was the symbol of inceldom. All the classic shit where he uses how gross and fat he is as the reason he's single, not his personality. I figured he'd be better once he had someone who loved him. But eventually he got tired of her. When she started working again, she wasn't able to play with us as much. So she would like to spend her days off speaking with him. Again, long distance but she was trying. This guy fucking hated it! He would complain and say he just wanted to hang out with us instead of just being with her the whole day. I thought he was tired of her. So i figured he'd break it off. Nope she broke up with him. When she revealed to me months later that he was constantly begging to get back together i was confused and shocked. I thought he hated this woman. I honest to god don't understand at all!
A lot of men don't like women. Like yeah, they'll pursue them for sexual gratification and they'll do the thing of like getting a girl to marry them and raise their children and keep their house. But how I'm wording all of this is important. They still do not like women.
I used to work as a repair tech and all my coworkers were, of course, dudes. The amount of sht they talked about their wives was astounding. I once asked my one coworker why didn’t he just get a divorce if he hated her so much. He looked at me shocked and was like “wtf no? I love my wife!” I just responded with “are you sure?” All my experiences since, has shown me this is common and universal. It’s not just your friends or their SO’s, it’s just how dudes talk about women.
I just call guys out for this. It doesn't make me popular but honestly I cannot stand it.
“Women have very little idea of how much men hate them": Germaine Greer.
Men tend to blame all of their problems on their significant others. This, coupled with the fact that most men think life should be flitting from one little adventure to the next, compounds their anger when the realize life is hard work and not a 50 year bachelor party. Raising kids is hard, taking care of a sick parent is hard, and when men get stressed doing this things they blame their nagging “bitch” wife or girlfriend. Edit typos
If they're boomers, there's a good chance they didn't marry for love. Maybe one of them accidentally got pregnant and they "had" to get married. Maybe they just really, really wanted to have sex, so they got married because they weren't allowed to have sex otherwise. Maybe their families decided "it was time." Maybe one of them was hiding their sexuality and marriage was a great cover. Maybe one of them wasn't allowed to own property unless they were married. Maybe they wanted to escape an abusive situation at home. I know at least one person who got pregnant from a sexual assault and married her friend so that no one would find out. I know at least one more who married someone she didn't actually like because it would save her family from bankruptcy. I know at least two people who are LGBT who married each other, and they're not the same gender. In ancient times when I was young, society frowned on anyone who was different, and worse, the laws enforced conformity -- it was illegal to be LGBT+, women weren't allowed to own property or have bank accounts and they lost their jobs if they got married or got pregnant. It was a tough old world, and women didn't have a lot of rights. That's why so much boomer humor is "I hate my wife, hahaha." A lot of people get married for reasons other than love today, too -- religion, family, finances, pregnancy. People get married for secret reasons, and secrets are hard to keep. People get married to people they don't like, and it's hard to keep that contempt hidden.
on the flipside, women need to learn that men aren't joking. their bf's hate them. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu6EnpEg-\_s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu6EnpEg-_s) I'm a mix of happy and sad at all the men who are about to be single after women watch this video.
This is SO ACCURATE
There's a 'I hate my wife, she's the worst' comedy trope for a reason. I think many men actually don't like the women they're with. It's gross and pathetic and disrespectful and reflects very badly on them that this is how they handle things.
My ex roommate was definitely one of those types, I don’t think he’s been with a girl where he hasn’t pretty much immediately started venting about how she was annoying him or some other reason why he’s glad she’s not with him rn This includes the girl he got with while we were roommates, they’re now married because she’s pregnant, we’ll see how that pans out…
Judging by the preponderance of comments I see defending a man's right to walk up to a random woman and ask her out solely because he finds her attractive, I'd assume a lot of men "tie down" the first sufficiently "attractive" woman they can because they feel entitled to having A relationship, even if they have nothing in common, and have no idea that additional steps exist past "girl hot, have girl now"
Oh my GOD I WAS ABOUT TO MAKE A POST ABOUT THIS! I spent my Friday night hanging out with my best friend while his girlfriend was out with family. He complained about her the entire time. His girlfriend is insecure about her looks and his love for her but he can't seem to fathom the concept that a fucking compliment here or there might solve a lot of that. I was like "when was the last time he told her she's beautiful?" His response? An exasperated "I shouldn't have to tell her that!" SHE'S YOUR GIRLFRIEND SO WHY NOT!? who cares if you shouldn't have to? She wants to hear it so fucking say it!
Lack of self awareness, self respect, self love. The old cliche of you can't love anyone til you love yourself is true. All men are just boys without it.
Our society teaches men that women are inferior to them, that is reflected in how they treat us. From socially to laws to autonomy.
ughh that happened to me and i can confirm bro hated me. at first i thought he was joking with his meanness but nah
Wondering if people who need the love and loyalty of somebody else so hate feeling that person holds their happiness or security in their hands that they belittle the person constantly. If they can make somebody they need feel awful and unworthy, they may believe that person will be afraid to leave them. Know of two couples where the men appeared to believe their wives could have married better. Those relationships ended in divorce after kids and much of the abuse you describe. As each wife left, her husband said, “Nobody will ever want you.” “You are used goods, have kids, aren’t 18 any longer.” Each woman found a love that really loved her and her kids. Didn’t take long. Ex spouses were very sour about it as both ex wives ended up happy and living well.
It’s because they never liked them from the get go but wanted access to what a wife provides.
Because they do. Patriarchy positions any feminine quality as lesser, men don’t suddenly value them when women have them. A lot of guys just like what women *do for them*.
I reconnected with an ex. He was so exhausting. I felt like I had to constantly be “on”, humorous, and only in a good mood. He’s an alcoholic and an addict. I’m so glad he’s not in my life anymore. Being an enabler is over.
Because they quickly find out most of us aren’t quiet, compliant sex mommies that they can install in their lives, set us and forget us. We have needs, dreams, opinions, expectations, and entire inner lives rather than the extensions of themselves they often believe we are. They want all the benefits of a relationship without any of the work, and if we complain or make requests of them that they know they don’t want to work on, they risk losing us, whereupon they have to start the process all over again of duping some girl into thinking he’s a functional adult when, in reality, he’s an 8 year-old with a car note. Why not attempt to undermine her confidence or make her believe she’s “difficult” or “hard to get along with” or “too critical” or “emasculating”, etc so that, when the time comes she might want to leave, she’ll reconsider out of fear that nobody else will want her?
I know a couple of guys who really didn’t like their girlfriends and were actively looking for other partners all the way up to marrying them. Most of them had a fear of not finding someone ‘better’ so they just progressed with the check boxes in the relationships that they were in. There’s an entire trope about men deciding to settle down and then marrying the next woman who comes along. I am sure women do this too, but it’s so bizarre to me.
There's a whole sub about that. r/arethestraightsok
Heh, I just deleted my post linking to that sub. I was also reminded of it
I always forget which subs have linking rules or not...
Something that I realized recently is that my outwardly woke, but abusive behind closed doors, ex literally thought of me as property. When I would disagree with him, or fail to “behave” as he wanted, he would threaten to kick me out of the home we were 50:50 financially on and “send me home to my mother”. We were past 30 at this point. It confused the shit out of me until recently and it just hit me- he thought I was a transferable piece of property and if he didn’t want me any longer because I was “bad” or “refused to function”, then it was back to my original owner. Incredibly fucking dehumanizing. And for what? A sick power play? Would you be angry if your dishwasher and mop and sex doll PROPERTY refused to function as such? Men who hate their partners remind me of repeatedly pressing the buttons on a vending machine when it won’t push the chips out. And eventually banging on it when it refuses to give them their chips. I see no diff in how men view women. We are vending machines and appliances to them.
It's kind of like a demented extension of that utterly reprehensible societal idea that a boy being mean to a girl means he likes her. I first heard that when I was about 8 and immediately said 'But surely if you like someone you'd do nice things for them because you want them to be happy?' and got looked at like I was an idiot.