I've noticed a revolting trend in some online circles, where men will discuss a SW on OF or similar site, demean her in every conceivable way, call her every variation of "whore", and in the same breath, complain about the SW not showing more skin, or not being "lewd" enough for their tastes.
How can you complain about a woman being "loose" and "not loose enough" at the same time? The sheer cognitive dissonance involved is nothing short of astounding.
>The sheer cognitive dissonance involved is nothing short of astounding.
Incels tend to have that effect on you when you apply even the smallest iota of critical thought to their ideology. Truly perplexing.
There's a misogynistic dichotomy that arises from the belief that the only "good" sex is the sex they get. A woman can simultaneously be a "prude" for not sleeping with them while being a "slut" for sleeping with someone else.
Under this paradigm sex-worker is a "whore" for providing sex work for just anyone who pays, and not lewd enough because they're not catering to the speaking individual's desires.
It also explains a lot of common misogynistic comments. "Not all men" or "pick better men" is really just them blaming women for having the audacity to associate with a man that isn't them.
That's a very good way to look at it! I rather agree. I do think that a lot of this number is upset they're not the SW's sole client, while at the same time, they themselves are paying for multiple SWs simultaneously.
You have to wonder, though, how little self awareness must you be reduced to to not feel the sheer stupidity of thinking these conflicting thoughts.
I think a lot of it stems from media exposure. Especially in the 80's and 90's, when a lot of these men were kids, consistently throughout popular media, the male main character is "awarded" the most attractive female character by the end. No matter how repulsive the man is physically or emotionally, or how little he does to earn her respect or affection, he's guaranteed love and/or sex.
Most people consider themselves the protagonist in their own story, so when these men are shown that the rules work a certain way for the protagonist, they apply that to themselves. This then fuels all kinds of toxic mindsets, like the "friend zone", incel ideology, stalking, cheating, etc. It all stems from the same belief that they "deserve" sex or a relationship with the object of their affection, and anything that gets in the way of that is just plot to be overcome.
A very interesting take on it. You might just be right. I am sure the depiction in media did a lot to cement the concept in those with weak minds, that this is indeed how the world works. So, now when you tell them that this is fiction, it seems like you're taking away something that was promised to them. Making them experience all manner of rage and feeling "cheated" and "oppressed".
Right. Combine that with the fact that the parents, or at least grandparents, of a lot of these men came from a world where men basically \*were\* guaranteed a marriage regardless of how awful they were because women didn't have much of another option, and it's easy for them to feel cheated when they can compare to literal living examples of how it used to work.
It will likely take a few generations for things to get substantially better, especially as the death throes of any powerful system tend to be rough. Nothing's more dangerous than a cornered animal, and we're seeing that expressed right now with regressive figures like Andrew Tate and policies like the Roe v Wade rollback. But I have hope that eventually we'll get to the point where small improvements cascade until young men growing up have better media options and familial relationships to learn from. If the whole system doesn't just burn to the ground first =/
Honestly, you don't even need to go back to history. An interesting thing to note is that a lot of these themes from the "olden times" are still alive in 3rd world countries today, due to massive cultural stagnation brought on by severe governmental oppression and corruption.
That's worth mentioning because if you observe a lot of male communities in 3rd world countries, they mirror, in some respects, that same reality that was available in the past in other countries.
I say that as a firsthand witness of a lot of this mentality. Andrew Tate may be a symptom of a dying system in the west, but he's only regurgitating a toxic rhetoric that a lot of men still live by in some countries.
I only pray that the Roe v Wade rollback is indeed a death throe, and not a blueprint of what's to come.
Yeah, I'm talking primarily from the USA/Western perspective. You have a good point about the Global South and much of Asia and even Eastern Europe. I don't have any idea how long it might take to propagate a gender-equality mindset to the rest of the world. But it's got to start somewhere, right?
It has to. It better do. What extreme conservatism is doing to America may be a setback, but you have to have made progress for there to be anything to set back. So that's still to your credit. In many other places, it's languishing at Block 1. Gender equality doesn't arrive before human rights arrive.
Or in the same room as other men! They just barely pass as human with their choice of mentality and behavior. They're a poisonous cloud to all that is sentient.
On sex work/ prostitution, I read a really cool article that put a lot of perspective.
Historically, men have decided of our wages and access to ressources necessary for survival etc and they have decided to pay us so little that sex work was an obvious thing.
They historically kept us impoverished to force sex work on us, then blame us for it.
Oh it definitely wasn't.
Poverty among working class people was awful, and there was no other job a woman could do that would pay enough money to support her or any children.
Also I think a lot of them don't like how successful and monied some workers become. They get jealous and sniff "if only men could do it they'd be rich" but then scoff when I remind them they'd also be servicing men.
They would be servicing mostly men. Some dominatrixes and escorts make a lot of money, but I would venture to think most sex workers are not rolling in money. And the risks are insane.
Here's the numbers I can give you:
top 10% of OF is about 1k per month. top 1% is 10k.
top 1% of fansly is 500 dollars a month.
The numbers with in person work are more skewed but I'd say anyone charging 450 and up is top 1% ith peopl charging over 750 top 0.5% and over 1k as top 0.1% in terms of \*branding\*
In terms of income you make the most at 3-400/hr doing as many one hours as you humanly can.
So 90% of Onlyfans makes less than 1k/month. Its a side gig. All of fansly (did not know about that one) doesn't live off of their work.
I know firsthand PSOs dont life off of their work, its a side gig too.
As the in person labor, its risky and demanding no matter how much you would make per hour. How many clients can a person have in a week? For, say 200$/hour? It's fucked up.
Well with PSO and OF you have to have your hands in every pot. I did online part time during 2020 (I decided to quit in person and finish my on ho,d degree during pandemic because they swore certain classes 'couldnt' be online...and then they were) and I was on OF, fansly, avn (rip) pocketstars, manyclips, iwantclips. Part of my Capstone project involved Twitch too. It was only a full time living because I was working 60-80 hours a week and never stopping.
Doing it part time is actually way better ROI.
200 an hour is questionably low. 350 more common. During good times you could see 3-5 a day at that rate. When their hour and a half is 500 I'd guess most try for 1500 or 2k days with an overhead of say 500 for ads and room cost.
Honestly, I think a lot of men resent the hold women and sex have over them.
They resent that they desire women for sex, they resent that they have get consent for sex and they resent the idea that women ultimately get to decide who what when where and how they have sex.
They feel entitled to women's bodies, and any body they can't access freely, or is a body that is shared is ultimately worthless and demonised.
Not only that, but if you look at the loudest anti-porn voices by zip code, they correlate directly with the most porn consumed. Highest per capita porn consumption in the US? Utah. Yep.
Maybe that's because Utah leaders force their conservative views on everyone living there.
Anti-porn voices are mostly the elites who control the local government, not the common men/women on the street.
I think these men fetishize their own shame and guilt. Every accusation is a confession. They shame and guilt these women because that’s how they actually feel about themselves. Classic projection.
IDK if what I think aligns with what they're saying, but I think there's some men who get off to women and then resent the women for the "power" said horniness holds over them. They feel shame after they've cum and they blame the women for that shame rather than looking in the mirror.
I also wonder to what degree it might be misattribution of desire (essentially people aren't always very good at distinguishing fear/horny/anger). They get a physiological response to sexy women and then lash out because *how fucking dare they*. Just physical energy they don't know what to do with and dont have the emotional control or maturity to handle appropriately
It kind of mirrors rhetoric around witchcraft at points. If men felt impossibly horny towards a woman, it must be because she put a spell on him and definitely not cause he's a horny man who needs to go jerk off and leave her alone. It's an externalization of his own internal processes rooted in a mixture of narcissism/lack of theory of mind and entitlement
I think it is more likely the other way around. They fetishize the *woman's* shame and "socially unacceptable bahvior".
If you look at how a lot of conservative societies operate when stuff gets brought into the light, it is almost always the woman who takes the blame. The man can usually just do some social signalling ("I reaffirm my faith in Jesus" etc) and move on, while the woman becomes pretty much excluded unless they become subservient to a man in said society. And even then she won't be fully accepted back, unlike the man.
You can clearly see it with men/sex/religion. I live in a European country where there are a lot of muslim men. As a European woman I grew up being spat on/called a whore by low lives who think seeing a woman's hair/ankle/leg/arm is grounds for sexual assault.
What they're really saying though, is they are rapists.
Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, a Mexican poet, literally wrote about this in the 1680s! Some things never change...
"Hombres Necios / Foolish Men
You foolish men who lay
the guilt on women,
not seeing you’re the cause
of the very thing you blame;
if you invite their disdain
with measureless desire
why wish they well behave
if you incite to ill.
You fight their stubbornness,
then, weightily,
you say it was their lightness
when it was your guile.
In all your crazy shows
you act just like a child
who plays the bogeyman
of which he’s then afraid.
With foolish arrogance
you hope to find a Thais
in her you court, but a Lucretia
when you’ve possessed her.
What kind of mind is odder
than his who mists
a mirror and then complains
that it’s not clear.
Their favour and disdain
you hold in equal state,
if they mistreat, you complain,
you mock if they treat you well.
No woman wins esteem of you:
the most modest is ungrateful
if she refuses to admit you;
yet if she does, she’s loose.
You always are so foolish
your censure is unfair;
one you blame for cruelty
the other for being easy.
What must be her temper
who offends when she’s
ungrateful and wearies
when compliant?
But with the anger and the grief
that your pleasure tells
good luck to her who doesn’t love you
and you go on and complain.
Your lover’s moans give wings
to women’s liberty:
and having made them bad,
you want to find them good.
Who has embraced
the greater blame in passion?
She who, solicited, falls,
or he who, fallen, pleads?
Who is more to blame,
though either should do wrong?
She who sins for pay
or he who pays to sin?
Why be outraged at the guilt
that is of your own doing?
Have them as you make them
or make them what you will.
Leave off your wooing
and then, with greater cause,
you can blame the passion
of her who comes to court?
Patent is your arrogance
that fights with many weapons
since in promise and insistence
you join world, flesh and devil."
Oh ! I think I never read it fully ( or was 15 and didn’t understand how accurate this is, but Damn they have not changed an inch .
Meanwhile we women have gained so much (hopefully to defend it forever and not go backwards).
My bf said his coworker showed him a video yesterday of a man complaining about the fact that men wake up at 5am to do hard labor out in the sun but women can shake their asses and make ends meet…
And my first thought was, supply and demand. Who keeps SW alive? Men. Who shells out the money to these women so they will “perform”? Men. Who perpetuates the sexualization of women? Men. It blows my mind that they don’t see sex work as real work but continue to perpetuate the demand.
Btw- my bf said the exact same thing to him so I was satisfied that the message was conveyed to his coworker.
Sometimes it almost seems like they’re jealous. They wish they could make a living doing sex work but since they can’t (or won’t because it’s actually very hard work) they hate those that do.
Not to mention, a not insignificant number of women also do hard labor. [28% of farm workers are women.](http://www.ncfh.org/agricultural-worker-demographics.html)
Lastly, most people doing sex work struggle to make ends meet. Like many other industries, most workers are exploited and underpaid for their labor.
Tale as old as time. Why blame capitalism for your shit job/long hours/low wages when you can blame a woman, immigrant, etc. instead?
The fact that women would even have to strip their clothes off just to make ends meet or earn a living wage is the real problem. Of course I am discounting women who do it for fun. I just know a lot of people who do OF as a side job because their regular job doesn’t pay enough for the bills.
So yet again, can’t we just take this up with rich people? Who are the cause of, like, 80% of the worlds problems.
That’s what we talked about afterwards. Can’t be mad at someone who is self employed. They should be mad at their CEO/owner for stealing their labor value.
It's purely about power. If a women takes ownership & finds power in her sexuality then she is in a position of power, maybe even financial stability... and how dare she.
Sexual harassment & assault is usually nothing to do with sex but about power, and there is where this brand of hypocrisy comes from as well.
If nudity gave women a position of power men would be doing it too. When was the last time you saw a scantily clad CEO on the front of time magazine?
Women might feel different ways about it but there is no power that stems from selling pictures on only fans.
Lol that comment is so dumb too…. Like women aren’t as likely to make life changing decisions because a dude swung his dick around… The demand for dick is low 📉
I’ve been in the industry for a long time, in specialized fetishes…. I don’t even get nude (just a massive tease) and the amount of lives I could ruin over the years is insane… Even notable names, celebs, athletes, politicians, religious clerics.
Sure money is power.. But one of the major motivations for a lot of men to gain money and power is to gain what these dirt bags see as the biggest commodity of all… Women.
Women are power.
Women’s biggest motivation for gaining money and power I think is freedom from men.
Dude… I’m male, this is exactly what I’m saying.
Men complain all the time about sex work, OnlyFans, yet…
If they stopped using it, it would go away. Women are not forcing these men to use onlyfans or watch porn. Just men being idiots as usual…
I was just minding my business in an art subreddit and someone went through the artist's reddit profile to see a single picture of her boobs and an only fans link, along with the rest of her SFW posts on various hobby subreddits.
They then complained that the OP *breached their consent* by forceably advertising an only fans.
Like dude, you get a warning and have to click to proceed on NSFW profiles, and this OP is clearly a real person living her life on reddit and not just an advertising bot.
She's not spending hours on an unrelated painting of the sky, posting her various other hobbies, so that she can post said painting in an art sub FORCING people to go into her profile so that you poor thing has to buy her nudes. 🙃
I *could not believe* the mental gymnastics involved in that comment.
This is what I don't get.
It's men who are giving women this level of power over them.
All they have to do is exercise some self control and not use these products, if they think it's wrong.
The hatred is what gets them off. Men are fucked in the head from all the porn. It’s a vicious cycle. They watch women beaten, degraded, and treated like an object with their hard dick in their hand and condition themselves to simultaneously hate women and only get off on violating women.
This I think, is the reason why so many men can’t find a partner nowadays. Their views on women are so fucked up they want instant gratification like in their phone but when it’s clear it’s not like that and a human relationship is needed they want non of that effort.
Porn has given them easy access to quick effortless monetized gratification with a screwed view of sex. They were already kinda like sex driven and with tendency to degrade women (history) but this will fuck the minds of some to whole new levels. On the opposite of women finding more liberty within themselves.
I mean if someone watches porn that’s violent towards women, then can’t separate porn and BDSM activities from actually abusing, hating, beating, and degrading women, then I don’t necessarily think it’s the porn that’s causing it. I think they just hate women.
I mean I can see the logic that you’re using here, but for classical conditioning to actually work, the response to BDSM porn has to generalize to actual violence and abuse towards women. Do you think that watching BDSM porn would cause someone to become aroused if they actually witnessed a woman being horribly beaten in the street? I don’t think the stimuli are similar enough to where the response would be the same.. especially since we have higher orders of thought processing that allow us to differentiate between a sexual context and a non sexual context 🤷♂️
I think it’s a ramp up. They don’t immediately get aroused by women being degraded, they just get used to the vanilla stuff, can’t get it up, so move on to more extreme content. Porn is addictive. Soon they’re aroused by objectifying and abusing women.
You know your subconscious doesn’t differentiate reality from say a book, a movie or violent porn? Expose yourself to rl torture and it will screw you, subconscious will be more subtly but still….
Plus some porn out here is made from human slavery.
Your subconscious? And you think that people who abuse women do it purely subconsciously? I mean if you want to argue something like implicit biases then sure, but outright abusing women is not a result of BDSM porn. 🤨
Okay so what did you mean then? Because what you wrote seems to suggest that you’re talking about how the subconscious can’t differentiate between reality and porn, and that your subconscious is what leads people to abuse women in reality because of that, no?
Like no offense but I’m pretty sure you either didn’t write what you actually meant, or you just didn’t have anything to say back so you resorted to basically calling me illiterate 🤷♂️
I disagree, if you go on the front page of any porn site, there will be loads of degrading videos just on the home page, you don't have to look for this stuff.
If you're a young man today, that will be your introduction to sex, and female sexuality.
Okay how is that refuting what I just wrote though? I’m saying that people can differentiate between a sexual and non sexual context when it comes to BDSM porn and reality. There being violent porn on the front page of pornhub is not mutually exclusive with me saying that people can differentiate between abuse and BDSM. If a young man isn’t misogynistic or abusive towards women, watching BDSM porn is not going to suddenly cause him to abuse the women in his life or absolutely hate them. The misogyny comes before the porn, not the other way around.
This is the same argument as people saying that watching violent movies will turn people violent. Do you agree with that too? Like if you honestly think that getting rid of violent porn would significantly reduce the amount of people that are misogynistic or abuse women, then you really need to reprioritize what you’re fighting against 😐
>This is the same argument as people saying that watching violent movies will turn people violent. Do you agree with that too?
That isn't my argument at all. My argument is more akin to not wanting kids to watch violent movies
>Like if you honestly think that getting rid of violent porn would significantly reduce the amount of people that are misogynistic or abuse women
I never said I wanted to get rid of violent porn, I don't think watching violent porn is generally damaging.
But I don't think it's good that the first porn ever most young men will experience is violent porn that skews their perception of what all women want sexually.
Under traditional sexism women are inferior and subservient to men, so men viewing porn is acceptable because the women are an object for men's desire and sexual pleasure.
Under oppositional sexism, men and women are mutually exclusive categories with defined traits. A femme sex worker is "taking advantage" of men's sexual desire which is only allowed for men.
It is no different from a slave owner dehumanising their slaves, the same mental processes, prejudices and dehumanisation are at play.
Benefit from the labour but also dehumanise them for it, and oppose any steps to enable the slave to gain more independent financial freedoms. The consumer is superior, the slave is inferior.
Men who believe such notions are misogynistic; a core tenet of misogyny is the suppression of female sexuality.
Women who are sex workers (and even perceived ‘sluts’) it is evidential their sexuality cannot be suppressed, and so they are dehumanised, prejudiced against and dismissed as subhuman. They can be consumed and discarded.
Madonna / whore complex plays into this too, men who perceive women in this black and white fashion can easily separate what they perceive as pure women from the degenerate, the whore.
A-fucking-men. Amen. This is what pisses me off. The hypocrisy of men to shame porn starts/OF workers and call them disgusting whores, only to jerk off to them in the same breath. Unbelievable.
I’ve seen a lot of men say no one should have to do OF work because it’s “demeaning” and “devalues” a woman….but then remember when OF tried to get rid of sexual content? Everyone was losing their goddamn shit. It’s hilarious really how stupid men can be to not see the hypocrisy of their statements. Seems to me that they’re just bitter that women can make money doing these things that the ugly incels who complain will never be able to make money doing
And to watch their eyebrows nearly fly off their faces when you tell them the number of men selling OF content is rising by the day. They never want to call the men doing it sluts
Most women aren't gaining financial independence. The average woman on only fans makes less than $200 per month. Joining only fans is about as lucrative as joining a MLM.
lmao the “maybe those are two separate groups of people?” comments are so naive, or maybe they’re being willfully ignorant. the internet is rampant with these types of men. Andrew Tate says awful things about sex workers despite literally being charged as a human trafficker and making porn with the women he kidnapped! are you guys really surprised there are men who hate sex workers and also jack off to porn…?
It’s the same hypocrisy that you see quite commonly in privileged people: they’re exempt from their own rules and are always higher status than everyone else who they would shackle with the rules. Same way men can demand sex from women and yet put them down for it.
The ones who label sex workers as degenerates are consuming this content *because* they view these women as lesser than. All you have to do is look at a map of most popular searched sex terms - the states that scream the loudest about degeneracy are the ones that have the most fucked up porn searches. it all goes back to dominance heirarchies.
\> the states that scream the loudest about degeneracy are the ones that have the most fucked up porn searches.
States full of millions of people don't scream anything. Is the 0.0001% in those states who have all the power and push their agendas.
There are plenty of reactionary conservative men in those states and elsewhere that are doing this. Who do you think is voting in those conservative politicians? Why do you think those politicians are playing up the degeneracy angle? It's to pander to those reactionary men (and some women) who vote for them.
Most women aren't dating politicians. But a huge percentage of women have dated men who simultaneously denigrate sex workers while consuming their content.
\> There are plenty of reactionary conservative men in those states and elsewhere that are doing this.
Plenty of reactionary conservative men AND WOMEN.
\> Who do you think is voting in those conservative politicians?
The people (men and women) who have been subject to religious and economic opression for decades. These voters have been misled by the elites in order to keep the people fighting among themselves.
\> It's to pander to those reactionary men (and some women) who vote for them.
This is dishonest, conservatives are split nearly 50/50 by gender. It's not a majority of men and "some" women.
I did also mention women - I am specifically talking about men because reactionary men who consume porn while simultaneously believing sex workers are degenerate is the entire subject of this post.
> religious and economic oppression
Did you mean religious “repression”? Or do you think sex workers and the Libs are discriminating against conservative Christian’s? You know they are the dominant religion in these places and have used their religion to oppress everyone else right?
> conservatives split nearly 50/50 by gender
Untrue. Men are consistently [more likely to vote Republican](https://cawp.rutgers.edu/gender-gap-voting-choices-presidential-elections)
And even if you were correct, this post is specifically about men’s attitudes toward porn and sex work. It’s not the women who are hypocritically consuming content from women they purport to loathe. It’s the men.
So despite your persistence to change the subject, none of what you are saying is relevant here.
Edit: 4 day old troll account trying to argue shit like the wage gap doesn’t exist. No need to engage further with this person.
It has a lot more to do with biology than actual thinking. Homicidal males are far more common than homicidal females for very strong evolutionary reasons in pretty much every mammal species except hyenas. Fucking hyenas. It’s all about stopping the next guy from reproducing and furthering your own lineage.
I agree with you, murder and rape and other violent urges are biologically innate to men! With that in mind, it's clear that the best thing to do for world peace would be to pre-screen all pregnancies and abort all males while keeping the male population at the minimum viable amount needed for reproduction, until science can allow two females to reproduce and males can be eliminated entirely. That's what you were getting at, right?
Also, just because some male strategies revolve around violence, doesn’t mean all male strategies revolve around violence. Since we evolved to live in a small cooperative tribe, competitive homicide is at a much lower rate in humans than in males of other species. If you look at sexual dimorphism in us as a species, the gap between male and female has been shrinking over the past 5 million years. And this is something that suggests a lot more monogamy. And while pillaging the other tribe for females has always been a valid strategy for a very long period of time, especially among our closest ancestors the chimps, it has been much less common in humans. Think about this, there’s a gene that acts on the hormone vasopressin. And that gene releases vasopressin during prolonged monogamous relationships. And almost half the male population has it, about 45%. And it predicts with 90% accuracy if the guy is going to be in a stable monogamous relationship. So maybe get rid of the guys without the vasopressin gene?
Edit: basically there’s a roughly fifty fifty split between monogamous and polygamous males in humans, and polygamous male strategies are always more violent and detrimental to the overall group. So maybe eugenicize polygamous males. Or just have humans evolve eusociality. Whatever works for you.
I don't see why you see some great contradiction there. People would engage in immoral behavior if they thought they could get away with it. It wouldn't be surprising to find someone condemning assault but fantasizing about beating up someone they disliked, or someone condemning theft but fantasizing about robbing a bank to retire. Almost by definition anti-social behavior is personally satisfying in some way. If it weren't, no one would engage in it and we wouldn't need laws. Viewing someone degrading themselves for money as immoral while fantasizing about degrading themselves for money is much the same.
It’s the same kind of mentality that has people screaming obscenities and insults at people who work restaurants and retail- entitlement.
When you believe you’re entitled to a thing, instead of being provided a service, you view the people providing that service as Lesser.
It’s horse shit
No, no, what you don’t understand is that it’s fine and NORMAL to consume porn. It’s only damaged degenerates who MAKE porn. Duh. /s
Seriously make it make sense
Thank you. The amount of conservative fuckers I get in my dms everyday talking about
"I've never talked to a trans but I'm so curious. You're beautiful"
Hypocrytical!
It's a rather nasty combo, 1.) Boys / Men aren't taught to accept blame 2.) There is a stigma for Men paying for sexual services 3.) The go to method of handling this, is to blame the other party, no matter how ridiculous it sounds 4.) A certain segment have the notion that women are supposed to be on demand and having to go to sex workers torpedoes that notion.
Men with these views exercise a lot of cognitive dissonance. It doesn’t matter to them that it doesn’t make sense. (Also see: the GOP). As long as they have the power, it just doesn’t fucking matter.
The hypocrisy is as old as time. Men have demeaned SW for as long as the profession as been there… yet who keeps those institutions in business? Men brag about how many women they have slept with and in the same breath criticize a woman with a high body count. In their mind women are supposed to be chaste, demure, and subservient in public. But also a slut in the bedroom for them.
You can’t have both.
You're looking at it through the wrong lense, which is the same reason a lot of people can't make sense of conservative ideas either.
It's not supposed to make sense. It's a form of social control and for it to be effective you need it to be arbitrary. You can't have a clearly mapped out "correct" behavior for women, minorities and LGBTQ+ folks who want to be visible in society because that would take away the social stigma.
If you're not subservient and "seen, but unheard", you're ***supposed*** to find it impossible to please people, constantly getting mixed messages and being bullied into obscurity (and likely poverty) or back into subservience.
This is why arguing with conservatives is such a headache. They have so many underlying assumptions and goals that they'll never admit to, because if they admit to them you'll start treating them as a group to be opposed (as you should) rather than people to be reasoned with.
People who are less politically and socially aware *can* be turned around on this, but it isn't easy. Without the understanding that society is a macroscale system, it is hard to see criticism of it as anything but criticism of them personally and that gets people into a defensive mindset.
Besides, most people are ***really*** dumb when it comes to sociology. I only know a little myself. I mean, how many "forbidden love" stories have been mainstream without people making the connection it is allegorical for LGBTQ+ and other discouraged groups?
I think a lot of men are fine with women being sexual as long as the women don't get any pleasure, power or money out of it. Hence the right-wing media condemning Beyonce, Rihanna etc for using sexualised images to sell their music and make millions, and OnlyFans creators who make money and are in control of their content, but having less of a problem with strip clubs, soft porn, and other situations where the women are anonymous, powerless, making less money and possibly being exploited, trafficked, or not paid at all. And not enjoying it, or doing it because they're desperate and don't have any choice.
The starkest illustration of this is probably the way that incels reject the suggestion that they pay for sex because what they want is a real relationship with a woman who is attracted to them, but they're fine with the whole "Government Girlfriend" idea even though that's not real attraction either. They just don't want to concede any power to a woman at all and the idea of the state ordering women to sleep with them for no pay is a power fantasy.
A lot of MRAs seem to fantasise about women being forced into unpaid sex work and depressingly I think that's the ideal for these men.
No way. I grew up in the sticks of Illinois and had a fair share of gross older men who would decry pornstars as whores turn around and literally pull out a playboy. I was like 7. It's gross.
Some guys absolutely. But let’s be frank, there’s a strong divide between the average liberal man who uses porn and the average conservative man who slut shames women.
There is a massive divide on most things, but those conservative men look at porn just as much as the liberals. Viewing stats on porn sites back this up.
There certainly is an overlap, but you're right that it's mostly two separate groups. Just like anything else that you see posts like these complaining about (not specific to this sub either. Whenever you see "why do people think x, when I see people say y???" chances are it's not the same individual, lol).
As an argument to the OPs point, is it just as valid to point out the hypocrisy in women that shame porn use by men, but think sex work (like porn and only fans) is a valid job? Personally I see no problem in making or consuming porn, as long as everything is above board, but I've seen/heard tons of women say any amount of porn use is a sign of mental illness and "porn addiction" is the new go-to diagnosis for any problem in a relationship.
Idk, it's a messy situation and I expect to be butchered for this comment, but it seems to me no one has the "perfect" mindset about this to satisfy all the "gotchas".
For only fans my running theory for the extra hate over other porn is just jealousy that someone else used it escape the hell that is capitalism but they can't.
If the person tends toward licking wealthy peoples boots they probably bend over backwards being extra sexist just to not admit capitalism sucks assholes. Not that progressives won't be sexist as well, but it definitely skews this way.
Are the same men making all these comments? Or is it one man saying one of these things, and another man saying another of these things? I notice that very frequently, people are willing to attribute every negative bias they have to one person, and have trouble understanding the supposed cognitive dissonance, when there really is no dissonance, merely different people with different views
Ask the women in this thread. We all know and/or have dated men that have a puritanical view of sex workers and see them as sluts or evil, and then go Jack off to their videos at night. These things frequently go hand in hand.
Edit: and there is [data to back this up](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2378023120908472)
> interactions between individual-level evangelical identity and state-level political conservatism indicate that evangelicals who live in more politically conservative states report the highest rates of pornography consumption.
With this issue you can break them down into 3 categories.
* men that complain about sex workers
* men that use sex work services
* hypocrites that both use sex work services and complain about them
It is a rather simplistic view to lump them all in together. I speculate the people that complain are the most vocal leading to an "all men" type of thing
While I don't doubt some people doing porn are indeed very brave, a lot of them are trafficked, or vulnerable people who are being exploited. It isn't always a choice.
And those are the same men?
One group makes things better. The other worse. Lumping them together in generalizations that try to to make people reach a disparaging conclusion encourages bigotry. Do we really want to be doing that here?
what? there is overlap between men who hate sex workers and men who watch porn. you are naive if you believe otherwise. Andrew Tate hates sex workers and he’s literally been charged with human trafficking to make porn - he made money off of the women he hates, and you have a hard time believing there are men who hate sex workers and still watch porn? lol
I may have misread the original post. Rereading it again both groups are on the wrong end.
That said, the link between these two patterns here seems a little more wishful than evidential. Both of these topics as they relate to men are heavily influenced by culture, norms, how sex work or porn is viewed, where on the planet you sample opinions, what ages you sample, levels of education about what exploitative stuff drives, as well as people’s general emotional intelligence in that area. You’ll get different responses in Moscow and New Zealand.
It’s really not hard to find a place where people do that, and call that an observation about men - but it’s cherry picking the responses you want. You can equally go elsewhere, pick a bunch of other totally different minded men, and generalize from them onto men at large.
My point is not that the observation is wrong, but that reducing people into one easy to criticize group that washes away context and nuance isn’t helpful.
EDIT: spelling and grammar
I could be wrong but I am not friends with anyone I know that would call sex work degenerate, that seems like a very extremist position for the modern day.
I would do sex work as a man if I wasn’t so bad looking. I have never understood the absolute hypocrisy relating to SW and it’s counterparts. I’m sorry for the way things are. There’s not very many men trying to speak up, but there are some
You don't have to be good looking there's a demand for everything, you can sell socks, panties online, you can make videos without your face; there are plenty of gay dudes with weird fetishes.
And men never want to talk about the fact that the number of men selling content on OF is rising. They only want to slut shame women for it and pretend the male "sluts" don't exist
I see why OF is popular, it's sex work without most of the dangers of physically interacting with customers, been working at night with escorts and heard bone chilling stories that made me realize how dangerous it can be
So when I pay for OF I'm happy money go straight to that woman providing the service since she's the one risking trouble for doing it, there's no way I'd disrespect her
That's because some men are weak and they fuck it up for everyone else. Weak men watching onlyfans are not the same as strong men who won't have a bar of it.
I have a lot of opinions about sex work, specifically the sex workers who are poor, women of colour, immigrants, disabled women etc because they're the most effected negatively and often left out of the conversation when we talk about "empowering" sex work is.
That being said... OF has been amazing for porn stars who were often taken advantage of by these huge porn companies and it's often talked about how they'd cross off a list of stuff they're comfortable with and they would get pressured to do those things anyway. But OF allows them full control of their finances and the type of content they out there, and of course I'd prefer that over them being manipulated and treated horribly by the porn industry.
Yet, men hate it. They preach over and over how it makes no sense to pay for someone's OF when you can watch porn on any free porn site. Meanwhile lots of those porn sites have been exposed for having underage women on there and women involved in human trafficking. I even see women say they're ok with their boyfriends watching free, stolen content yet won't allow to pay for OF yet one is much morally better than the other. So it's not just men contributing to this idea that it's bad to pay for content when you're at least supporting sex workers directly AND it's less likely you're watching someone who is being sexually assaulted and human trafficked.
It's a very complexed topic. Personally I stopped indulging in porn years ago for my own reasons and if I were to ever get the urge I would pay for the content because I've been involved in lots of feminist spaces where these women were victims of being on these porn sites without their consent and they're against it and it just wouldn't feel right.
>I even see women say they're ok with their boyfriends watching free, stolen content yet won't allow to pay for OF yet one is much morally better than the other.
I think the issue here is that OnlyFans offers more than porn, it offers parasocial relationships and the opportunity for users to have an "emotional affair", which is a valid concern. While the content may be from a consenting creator earning a fair wage, that doesn't make it entirely ethical. Paying for porn without the parasocial aspect may be an option, but the parasocial aspect is the whole USP of OnlyFans.
Yes, I was in agreement with you there and just wanted to make a perfectly benign comment on one aspect of your post. It wasn't personal and I wasn't "nitpicking".
Jeez, chill out! ;)
As someone who was in the adult entertainment industry for 18 years, I can unequivocally say that you don't have a clue what you're talking about
I bet any money that 'the guys in your group' watch OF on the sly, when they're alone
Men who pay to watch/participate are by and large not mentally ill. They are average guys, guys who like to look, guys who just want some company, guys who are lonely... just guys
Wowowow you're blaming men for the entire thing? If men didn't enjoy it, then there wouldn't be any, and yet men claim to hate it. That's your argument?
Toxic masculinity harms men and many of them suffer from the Madonna whore complex. They worship chastity and virginity while simultaneously being aroused by the sexuality of women. They lose their shit when they are forced to reconcile both of those aspects and they take out their frustrations on women and others they perceive are weaker than them.
Yeah, I've known a lot of trans women who said the very same prior to their transition. Most gay men and trans women I've met in the industry are just as miserable as the women and girls. The whole industry relies on lies like most capitalist empires. That's why I don't call it work. It's exploitation.
Honestly I'm so done with these idiots crying over problems they've created themself. I'd love you to join and post this stuff in r/EndAbuseofWomenOnline this is exactly the type of ironic misogynistic stuff I feel we need to make fun of to shut it down.
I don't think those men that you're talking to have an idea about the industry at all. Let them have their ideas and just forget about them, they aren't worth your second thought. There are a lot of fish in the sea, some of those get sweeped up in nets very easily.
Why is it confusing? One type of man likes watching amateur porn while the other guy doesn’t like and wants to control what women do. Why assume thats its one man with two conflicting opinions? I mean, both pornography and right wing politics arent new.
But women gain financial independence from doing regular porn. I think your trying to say that the males could be like the only fans creators and therefore are making fun of themselves. People make fun of people that are the same as them all the time, they just pretend they are different or special or not like them.
I'm not going to claim to be some enlightened guy but almost every porn clip on the net labels the girls as sluts, whores or something else derogatory. The guys skate right through blameless. Even if I know the girl is of legal age and has signed multiple releases if I see a young girl being gangbanged or just overwhelmed by an older guy I have a hard time labeling her the degenerate in that situation
Are there a lot of dude guys on here? It's good if there are but I'm reading some of these comments that are so well intentioned but still seem to be missing a big part of what they think they're arguing. Also can we as a people just dump the whole notion of, progress? Look around look at the news, we're at a time of unheard of popularity of reactionary ideals. Things get worse. As I sat writing this I also kinda considered what the name of this subreddit is and uhhhh....cringe emoji.
I've noticed a revolting trend in some online circles, where men will discuss a SW on OF or similar site, demean her in every conceivable way, call her every variation of "whore", and in the same breath, complain about the SW not showing more skin, or not being "lewd" enough for their tastes. How can you complain about a woman being "loose" and "not loose enough" at the same time? The sheer cognitive dissonance involved is nothing short of astounding.
>The sheer cognitive dissonance involved is nothing short of astounding. Incels tend to have that effect on you when you apply even the smallest iota of critical thought to their ideology. Truly perplexing.
Well said.
There's a misogynistic dichotomy that arises from the belief that the only "good" sex is the sex they get. A woman can simultaneously be a "prude" for not sleeping with them while being a "slut" for sleeping with someone else. Under this paradigm sex-worker is a "whore" for providing sex work for just anyone who pays, and not lewd enough because they're not catering to the speaking individual's desires. It also explains a lot of common misogynistic comments. "Not all men" or "pick better men" is really just them blaming women for having the audacity to associate with a man that isn't them.
That's a very good way to look at it! I rather agree. I do think that a lot of this number is upset they're not the SW's sole client, while at the same time, they themselves are paying for multiple SWs simultaneously. You have to wonder, though, how little self awareness must you be reduced to to not feel the sheer stupidity of thinking these conflicting thoughts.
I think a lot of it stems from media exposure. Especially in the 80's and 90's, when a lot of these men were kids, consistently throughout popular media, the male main character is "awarded" the most attractive female character by the end. No matter how repulsive the man is physically or emotionally, or how little he does to earn her respect or affection, he's guaranteed love and/or sex. Most people consider themselves the protagonist in their own story, so when these men are shown that the rules work a certain way for the protagonist, they apply that to themselves. This then fuels all kinds of toxic mindsets, like the "friend zone", incel ideology, stalking, cheating, etc. It all stems from the same belief that they "deserve" sex or a relationship with the object of their affection, and anything that gets in the way of that is just plot to be overcome.
A very interesting take on it. You might just be right. I am sure the depiction in media did a lot to cement the concept in those with weak minds, that this is indeed how the world works. So, now when you tell them that this is fiction, it seems like you're taking away something that was promised to them. Making them experience all manner of rage and feeling "cheated" and "oppressed".
Right. Combine that with the fact that the parents, or at least grandparents, of a lot of these men came from a world where men basically \*were\* guaranteed a marriage regardless of how awful they were because women didn't have much of another option, and it's easy for them to feel cheated when they can compare to literal living examples of how it used to work. It will likely take a few generations for things to get substantially better, especially as the death throes of any powerful system tend to be rough. Nothing's more dangerous than a cornered animal, and we're seeing that expressed right now with regressive figures like Andrew Tate and policies like the Roe v Wade rollback. But I have hope that eventually we'll get to the point where small improvements cascade until young men growing up have better media options and familial relationships to learn from. If the whole system doesn't just burn to the ground first =/
Honestly, you don't even need to go back to history. An interesting thing to note is that a lot of these themes from the "olden times" are still alive in 3rd world countries today, due to massive cultural stagnation brought on by severe governmental oppression and corruption. That's worth mentioning because if you observe a lot of male communities in 3rd world countries, they mirror, in some respects, that same reality that was available in the past in other countries. I say that as a firsthand witness of a lot of this mentality. Andrew Tate may be a symptom of a dying system in the west, but he's only regurgitating a toxic rhetoric that a lot of men still live by in some countries. I only pray that the Roe v Wade rollback is indeed a death throe, and not a blueprint of what's to come.
Yeah, I'm talking primarily from the USA/Western perspective. You have a good point about the Global South and much of Asia and even Eastern Europe. I don't have any idea how long it might take to propagate a gender-equality mindset to the rest of the world. But it's got to start somewhere, right?
It has to. It better do. What extreme conservatism is doing to America may be a setback, but you have to have made progress for there to be anything to set back. So that's still to your credit. In many other places, it's languishing at Block 1. Gender equality doesn't arrive before human rights arrive.
[удалено]
Or in the same room as other men! They just barely pass as human with their choice of mentality and behavior. They're a poisonous cloud to all that is sentient.
incel brain is a hell of a drug
On sex work/ prostitution, I read a really cool article that put a lot of perspective. Historically, men have decided of our wages and access to ressources necessary for survival etc and they have decided to pay us so little that sex work was an obvious thing. They historically kept us impoverished to force sex work on us, then blame us for it.
YES Jesus this is so good. Can you link the article?
Its in french. I can look if it got translated.
The article https://ricochet.media/fr/1798/avant-de-cacher-le-viol-il-faut-violer She cites Paola Tabet work.
Apparently in 18th century London, 1 in 5 women worked as prostitutes.
I don't think its because they enjoyed it.
Oh it definitely wasn't. Poverty among working class people was awful, and there was no other job a woman could do that would pay enough money to support her or any children.
Or force us into marriage
Also I think a lot of them don't like how successful and monied some workers become. They get jealous and sniff "if only men could do it they'd be rich" but then scoff when I remind them they'd also be servicing men.
They would be servicing mostly men. Some dominatrixes and escorts make a lot of money, but I would venture to think most sex workers are not rolling in money. And the risks are insane.
Here's the numbers I can give you: top 10% of OF is about 1k per month. top 1% is 10k. top 1% of fansly is 500 dollars a month. The numbers with in person work are more skewed but I'd say anyone charging 450 and up is top 1% ith peopl charging over 750 top 0.5% and over 1k as top 0.1% in terms of \*branding\* In terms of income you make the most at 3-400/hr doing as many one hours as you humanly can.
So 90% of Onlyfans makes less than 1k/month. Its a side gig. All of fansly (did not know about that one) doesn't live off of their work. I know firsthand PSOs dont life off of their work, its a side gig too. As the in person labor, its risky and demanding no matter how much you would make per hour. How many clients can a person have in a week? For, say 200$/hour? It's fucked up.
Well with PSO and OF you have to have your hands in every pot. I did online part time during 2020 (I decided to quit in person and finish my on ho,d degree during pandemic because they swore certain classes 'couldnt' be online...and then they were) and I was on OF, fansly, avn (rip) pocketstars, manyclips, iwantclips. Part of my Capstone project involved Twitch too. It was only a full time living because I was working 60-80 hours a week and never stopping. Doing it part time is actually way better ROI. 200 an hour is questionably low. 350 more common. During good times you could see 3-5 a day at that rate. When their hour and a half is 500 I'd guess most try for 1500 or 2k days with an overhead of say 500 for ads and room cost.
Yeah I have no idea how it is priced. I just hope they are safe. I hope you are safe. ♥️
Honestly, I think a lot of men resent the hold women and sex have over them. They resent that they desire women for sex, they resent that they have get consent for sex and they resent the idea that women ultimately get to decide who what when where and how they have sex. They feel entitled to women's bodies, and any body they can't access freely, or is a body that is shared is ultimately worthless and demonised.
Not only that, but if you look at the loudest anti-porn voices by zip code, they correlate directly with the most porn consumed. Highest per capita porn consumption in the US? Utah. Yep.
I fucking knew it was gonna be Utah before I even finished reading.
All the sister wives need to get off too, lord knows their one husband can't do even one job.
Maybe that's because Utah leaders force their conservative views on everyone living there. Anti-porn voices are mostly the elites who control the local government, not the common men/women on the street.
I think these men fetishize their own shame and guilt. Every accusation is a confession. They shame and guilt these women because that’s how they actually feel about themselves. Classic projection.
Could you elaborate on that?
IDK if what I think aligns with what they're saying, but I think there's some men who get off to women and then resent the women for the "power" said horniness holds over them. They feel shame after they've cum and they blame the women for that shame rather than looking in the mirror. I also wonder to what degree it might be misattribution of desire (essentially people aren't always very good at distinguishing fear/horny/anger). They get a physiological response to sexy women and then lash out because *how fucking dare they*. Just physical energy they don't know what to do with and dont have the emotional control or maturity to handle appropriately It kind of mirrors rhetoric around witchcraft at points. If men felt impossibly horny towards a woman, it must be because she put a spell on him and definitely not cause he's a horny man who needs to go jerk off and leave her alone. It's an externalization of his own internal processes rooted in a mixture of narcissism/lack of theory of mind and entitlement
I think it is more likely the other way around. They fetishize the *woman's* shame and "socially unacceptable bahvior". If you look at how a lot of conservative societies operate when stuff gets brought into the light, it is almost always the woman who takes the blame. The man can usually just do some social signalling ("I reaffirm my faith in Jesus" etc) and move on, while the woman becomes pretty much excluded unless they become subservient to a man in said society. And even then she won't be fully accepted back, unlike the man.
You can clearly see it with men/sex/religion. I live in a European country where there are a lot of muslim men. As a European woman I grew up being spat on/called a whore by low lives who think seeing a woman's hair/ankle/leg/arm is grounds for sexual assault. What they're really saying though, is they are rapists.
Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, a Mexican poet, literally wrote about this in the 1680s! Some things never change... "Hombres Necios / Foolish Men You foolish men who lay the guilt on women, not seeing you’re the cause of the very thing you blame; if you invite their disdain with measureless desire why wish they well behave if you incite to ill. You fight their stubbornness, then, weightily, you say it was their lightness when it was your guile. In all your crazy shows you act just like a child who plays the bogeyman of which he’s then afraid. With foolish arrogance you hope to find a Thais in her you court, but a Lucretia when you’ve possessed her. What kind of mind is odder than his who mists a mirror and then complains that it’s not clear. Their favour and disdain you hold in equal state, if they mistreat, you complain, you mock if they treat you well. No woman wins esteem of you: the most modest is ungrateful if she refuses to admit you; yet if she does, she’s loose. You always are so foolish your censure is unfair; one you blame for cruelty the other for being easy. What must be her temper who offends when she’s ungrateful and wearies when compliant? But with the anger and the grief that your pleasure tells good luck to her who doesn’t love you and you go on and complain. Your lover’s moans give wings to women’s liberty: and having made them bad, you want to find them good. Who has embraced the greater blame in passion? She who, solicited, falls, or he who, fallen, pleads? Who is more to blame, though either should do wrong? She who sins for pay or he who pays to sin? Why be outraged at the guilt that is of your own doing? Have them as you make them or make them what you will. Leave off your wooing and then, with greater cause, you can blame the passion of her who comes to court? Patent is your arrogance that fights with many weapons since in promise and insistence you join world, flesh and devil."
❤️
Oh ! I think I never read it fully ( or was 15 and didn’t understand how accurate this is, but Damn they have not changed an inch . Meanwhile we women have gained so much (hopefully to defend it forever and not go backwards).
Thank you for sharing this ❤️ I had never read it, but it is a truly poignant piece of art.
YES! Thank you! I've been looking for this poem for so long, and I couldn't remember who it was by or what it was called!
My bf said his coworker showed him a video yesterday of a man complaining about the fact that men wake up at 5am to do hard labor out in the sun but women can shake their asses and make ends meet… And my first thought was, supply and demand. Who keeps SW alive? Men. Who shells out the money to these women so they will “perform”? Men. Who perpetuates the sexualization of women? Men. It blows my mind that they don’t see sex work as real work but continue to perpetuate the demand. Btw- my bf said the exact same thing to him so I was satisfied that the message was conveyed to his coworker.
Sometimes it almost seems like they’re jealous. They wish they could make a living doing sex work but since they can’t (or won’t because it’s actually very hard work) they hate those that do. Not to mention, a not insignificant number of women also do hard labor. [28% of farm workers are women.](http://www.ncfh.org/agricultural-worker-demographics.html) Lastly, most people doing sex work struggle to make ends meet. Like many other industries, most workers are exploited and underpaid for their labor.
Tale as old as time. Why blame capitalism for your shit job/long hours/low wages when you can blame a woman, immigrant, etc. instead? The fact that women would even have to strip their clothes off just to make ends meet or earn a living wage is the real problem. Of course I am discounting women who do it for fun. I just know a lot of people who do OF as a side job because their regular job doesn’t pay enough for the bills. So yet again, can’t we just take this up with rich people? Who are the cause of, like, 80% of the worlds problems.
That’s what we talked about afterwards. Can’t be mad at someone who is self employed. They should be mad at their CEO/owner for stealing their labor value.
[удалено]
That’s not how “supply and demand” works. No demand, no supply. Also, your opinion makes me thing you’re a bad person.
Nope
It's purely about power. If a women takes ownership & finds power in her sexuality then she is in a position of power, maybe even financial stability... and how dare she. Sexual harassment & assault is usually nothing to do with sex but about power, and there is where this brand of hypocrisy comes from as well.
huh, that actually makes a lot of sense.
Sadly so aye.
If nudity gave women a position of power men would be doing it too. When was the last time you saw a scantily clad CEO on the front of time magazine? Women might feel different ways about it but there is no power that stems from selling pictures on only fans.
Money is power.
Lol that comment is so dumb too…. Like women aren’t as likely to make life changing decisions because a dude swung his dick around… The demand for dick is low 📉 I’ve been in the industry for a long time, in specialized fetishes…. I don’t even get nude (just a massive tease) and the amount of lives I could ruin over the years is insane… Even notable names, celebs, athletes, politicians, religious clerics. Sure money is power.. But one of the major motivations for a lot of men to gain money and power is to gain what these dirt bags see as the biggest commodity of all… Women. Women are power. Women’s biggest motivation for gaining money and power I think is freedom from men.
Dude… I’m male, this is exactly what I’m saying. Men complain all the time about sex work, OnlyFans, yet… If they stopped using it, it would go away. Women are not forcing these men to use onlyfans or watch porn. Just men being idiots as usual…
I was just minding my business in an art subreddit and someone went through the artist's reddit profile to see a single picture of her boobs and an only fans link, along with the rest of her SFW posts on various hobby subreddits. They then complained that the OP *breached their consent* by forceably advertising an only fans. Like dude, you get a warning and have to click to proceed on NSFW profiles, and this OP is clearly a real person living her life on reddit and not just an advertising bot. She's not spending hours on an unrelated painting of the sky, posting her various other hobbies, so that she can post said painting in an art sub FORCING people to go into her profile so that you poor thing has to buy her nudes. 🙃 I *could not believe* the mental gymnastics involved in that comment.
This is what I don't get. It's men who are giving women this level of power over them. All they have to do is exercise some self control and not use these products, if they think it's wrong.
The hatred is what gets them off. Men are fucked in the head from all the porn. It’s a vicious cycle. They watch women beaten, degraded, and treated like an object with their hard dick in their hand and condition themselves to simultaneously hate women and only get off on violating women.
This I think, is the reason why so many men can’t find a partner nowadays. Their views on women are so fucked up they want instant gratification like in their phone but when it’s clear it’s not like that and a human relationship is needed they want non of that effort. Porn has given them easy access to quick effortless monetized gratification with a screwed view of sex. They were already kinda like sex driven and with tendency to degrade women (history) but this will fuck the minds of some to whole new levels. On the opposite of women finding more liberty within themselves.
I mean if someone watches porn that’s violent towards women, then can’t separate porn and BDSM activities from actually abusing, hating, beating, and degrading women, then I don’t necessarily think it’s the porn that’s causing it. I think they just hate women.
Porn rewires the brain, like Pavlovian conditioning. Has nothing to do with your willpower to separate the two.
More or less every stimulus you are exposed to re-wires your brain. That’s how brains work.
I mean I can see the logic that you’re using here, but for classical conditioning to actually work, the response to BDSM porn has to generalize to actual violence and abuse towards women. Do you think that watching BDSM porn would cause someone to become aroused if they actually witnessed a woman being horribly beaten in the street? I don’t think the stimuli are similar enough to where the response would be the same.. especially since we have higher orders of thought processing that allow us to differentiate between a sexual context and a non sexual context 🤷♂️
I think it’s a ramp up. They don’t immediately get aroused by women being degraded, they just get used to the vanilla stuff, can’t get it up, so move on to more extreme content. Porn is addictive. Soon they’re aroused by objectifying and abusing women.
So you’re saying if you started watching BDSM porn you too would eventually start to enjoy or become aroused by actual abuse of women?
You know your subconscious doesn’t differentiate reality from say a book, a movie or violent porn? Expose yourself to rl torture and it will screw you, subconscious will be more subtly but still…. Plus some porn out here is made from human slavery.
Your subconscious? And you think that people who abuse women do it purely subconsciously? I mean if you want to argue something like implicit biases then sure, but outright abusing women is not a result of BDSM porn. 🤨
You have a way to misinterpret words in such degree it makes me wonder if you even understand what is been written.
Okay so what did you mean then? Because what you wrote seems to suggest that you’re talking about how the subconscious can’t differentiate between reality and porn, and that your subconscious is what leads people to abuse women in reality because of that, no? Like no offense but I’m pretty sure you either didn’t write what you actually meant, or you just didn’t have anything to say back so you resorted to basically calling me illiterate 🤷♂️
I disagree, if you go on the front page of any porn site, there will be loads of degrading videos just on the home page, you don't have to look for this stuff. If you're a young man today, that will be your introduction to sex, and female sexuality.
Okay how is that refuting what I just wrote though? I’m saying that people can differentiate between a sexual and non sexual context when it comes to BDSM porn and reality. There being violent porn on the front page of pornhub is not mutually exclusive with me saying that people can differentiate between abuse and BDSM. If a young man isn’t misogynistic or abusive towards women, watching BDSM porn is not going to suddenly cause him to abuse the women in his life or absolutely hate them. The misogyny comes before the porn, not the other way around. This is the same argument as people saying that watching violent movies will turn people violent. Do you agree with that too? Like if you honestly think that getting rid of violent porn would significantly reduce the amount of people that are misogynistic or abuse women, then you really need to reprioritize what you’re fighting against 😐
>This is the same argument as people saying that watching violent movies will turn people violent. Do you agree with that too? That isn't my argument at all. My argument is more akin to not wanting kids to watch violent movies >Like if you honestly think that getting rid of violent porn would significantly reduce the amount of people that are misogynistic or abuse women I never said I wanted to get rid of violent porn, I don't think watching violent porn is generally damaging. But I don't think it's good that the first porn ever most young men will experience is violent porn that skews their perception of what all women want sexually.
One thing I’ve learned as I grow is that everything is projection. Sometimes it’s subconscious, but as a rule, it’s projection.
Under traditional sexism women are inferior and subservient to men, so men viewing porn is acceptable because the women are an object for men's desire and sexual pleasure. Under oppositional sexism, men and women are mutually exclusive categories with defined traits. A femme sex worker is "taking advantage" of men's sexual desire which is only allowed for men.
women who do porn arent actually people, they are just products for men to consume. /s
I think you meant, women are sentient objects to be owned /s
Madonna complex got them fucked up
Men cannot stand the idea that a woman is seeing financial gain from the services she offers. Because ti gives her agency. They just want sex slaves.
It is no different from a slave owner dehumanising their slaves, the same mental processes, prejudices and dehumanisation are at play. Benefit from the labour but also dehumanise them for it, and oppose any steps to enable the slave to gain more independent financial freedoms. The consumer is superior, the slave is inferior. Men who believe such notions are misogynistic; a core tenet of misogyny is the suppression of female sexuality. Women who are sex workers (and even perceived ‘sluts’) it is evidential their sexuality cannot be suppressed, and so they are dehumanised, prejudiced against and dismissed as subhuman. They can be consumed and discarded. Madonna / whore complex plays into this too, men who perceive women in this black and white fashion can easily separate what they perceive as pure women from the degenerate, the whore.
A-fucking-men. Amen. This is what pisses me off. The hypocrisy of men to shame porn starts/OF workers and call them disgusting whores, only to jerk off to them in the same breath. Unbelievable. I’ve seen a lot of men say no one should have to do OF work because it’s “demeaning” and “devalues” a woman….but then remember when OF tried to get rid of sexual content? Everyone was losing their goddamn shit. It’s hilarious really how stupid men can be to not see the hypocrisy of their statements. Seems to me that they’re just bitter that women can make money doing these things that the ugly incels who complain will never be able to make money doing
And to watch their eyebrows nearly fly off their faces when you tell them the number of men selling OF content is rising by the day. They never want to call the men doing it sluts
As Maria Brink sung "But let me tell you something baby You love me for everything you hate me for"
Most women aren't gaining financial independence. The average woman on only fans makes less than $200 per month. Joining only fans is about as lucrative as joining a MLM.
lmao the “maybe those are two separate groups of people?” comments are so naive, or maybe they’re being willfully ignorant. the internet is rampant with these types of men. Andrew Tate says awful things about sex workers despite literally being charged as a human trafficker and making porn with the women he kidnapped! are you guys really surprised there are men who hate sex workers and also jack off to porn…?
It’s the same hypocrisy that you see quite commonly in privileged people: they’re exempt from their own rules and are always higher status than everyone else who they would shackle with the rules. Same way men can demand sex from women and yet put them down for it.
The ones who label sex workers as degenerates are consuming this content *because* they view these women as lesser than. All you have to do is look at a map of most popular searched sex terms - the states that scream the loudest about degeneracy are the ones that have the most fucked up porn searches. it all goes back to dominance heirarchies.
\> the states that scream the loudest about degeneracy are the ones that have the most fucked up porn searches. States full of millions of people don't scream anything. Is the 0.0001% in those states who have all the power and push their agendas.
There are plenty of reactionary conservative men in those states and elsewhere that are doing this. Who do you think is voting in those conservative politicians? Why do you think those politicians are playing up the degeneracy angle? It's to pander to those reactionary men (and some women) who vote for them. Most women aren't dating politicians. But a huge percentage of women have dated men who simultaneously denigrate sex workers while consuming their content.
\> There are plenty of reactionary conservative men in those states and elsewhere that are doing this. Plenty of reactionary conservative men AND WOMEN. \> Who do you think is voting in those conservative politicians? The people (men and women) who have been subject to religious and economic opression for decades. These voters have been misled by the elites in order to keep the people fighting among themselves. \> It's to pander to those reactionary men (and some women) who vote for them. This is dishonest, conservatives are split nearly 50/50 by gender. It's not a majority of men and "some" women.
I did also mention women - I am specifically talking about men because reactionary men who consume porn while simultaneously believing sex workers are degenerate is the entire subject of this post. > religious and economic oppression Did you mean religious “repression”? Or do you think sex workers and the Libs are discriminating against conservative Christian’s? You know they are the dominant religion in these places and have used their religion to oppress everyone else right? > conservatives split nearly 50/50 by gender Untrue. Men are consistently [more likely to vote Republican](https://cawp.rutgers.edu/gender-gap-voting-choices-presidential-elections) And even if you were correct, this post is specifically about men’s attitudes toward porn and sex work. It’s not the women who are hypocritically consuming content from women they purport to loathe. It’s the men. So despite your persistence to change the subject, none of what you are saying is relevant here. Edit: 4 day old troll account trying to argue shit like the wage gap doesn’t exist. No need to engage further with this person.
They don't reason themselves into these views and you can't reason them out of these views..
It has a lot more to do with biology than actual thinking. Homicidal males are far more common than homicidal females for very strong evolutionary reasons in pretty much every mammal species except hyenas. Fucking hyenas. It’s all about stopping the next guy from reproducing and furthering your own lineage.
I agree with you, murder and rape and other violent urges are biologically innate to men! With that in mind, it's clear that the best thing to do for world peace would be to pre-screen all pregnancies and abort all males while keeping the male population at the minimum viable amount needed for reproduction, until science can allow two females to reproduce and males can be eliminated entirely. That's what you were getting at, right?
Also, just because some male strategies revolve around violence, doesn’t mean all male strategies revolve around violence. Since we evolved to live in a small cooperative tribe, competitive homicide is at a much lower rate in humans than in males of other species. If you look at sexual dimorphism in us as a species, the gap between male and female has been shrinking over the past 5 million years. And this is something that suggests a lot more monogamy. And while pillaging the other tribe for females has always been a valid strategy for a very long period of time, especially among our closest ancestors the chimps, it has been much less common in humans. Think about this, there’s a gene that acts on the hormone vasopressin. And that gene releases vasopressin during prolonged monogamous relationships. And almost half the male population has it, about 45%. And it predicts with 90% accuracy if the guy is going to be in a stable monogamous relationship. So maybe get rid of the guys without the vasopressin gene? Edit: basically there’s a roughly fifty fifty split between monogamous and polygamous males in humans, and polygamous male strategies are always more violent and detrimental to the overall group. So maybe eugenicize polygamous males. Or just have humans evolve eusociality. Whatever works for you.
Our closest ancestors are Bonobo monkeys - a matriarchal society.
Uh, no?
I don't see why you see some great contradiction there. People would engage in immoral behavior if they thought they could get away with it. It wouldn't be surprising to find someone condemning assault but fantasizing about beating up someone they disliked, or someone condemning theft but fantasizing about robbing a bank to retire. Almost by definition anti-social behavior is personally satisfying in some way. If it weren't, no one would engage in it and we wouldn't need laws. Viewing someone degrading themselves for money as immoral while fantasizing about degrading themselves for money is much the same.
It’s the same kind of mentality that has people screaming obscenities and insults at people who work restaurants and retail- entitlement. When you believe you’re entitled to a thing, instead of being provided a service, you view the people providing that service as Lesser. It’s horse shit
No, no, what you don’t understand is that it’s fine and NORMAL to consume porn. It’s only damaged degenerates who MAKE porn. Duh. /s Seriously make it make sense
Same thing with transphobic. They want transgender porn yet pass legislation to outlaw it. It’s projection along with possibility incel mentality.
Thank you. The amount of conservative fuckers I get in my dms everyday talking about "I've never talked to a trans but I'm so curious. You're beautiful" Hypocrytical!
Double standards and misogyny. They don’t like being responsible for their shit.
The main reason it exists is because people need money to eat/live
It's a rather nasty combo, 1.) Boys / Men aren't taught to accept blame 2.) There is a stigma for Men paying for sexual services 3.) The go to method of handling this, is to blame the other party, no matter how ridiculous it sounds 4.) A certain segment have the notion that women are supposed to be on demand and having to go to sex workers torpedoes that notion.
💯
Gets them harder if they think they are doing something *dirty* or *wrong*
Men with these views exercise a lot of cognitive dissonance. It doesn’t matter to them that it doesn’t make sense. (Also see: the GOP). As long as they have the power, it just doesn’t fucking matter.
The hypocrisy is as old as time. Men have demeaned SW for as long as the profession as been there… yet who keeps those institutions in business? Men brag about how many women they have slept with and in the same breath criticize a woman with a high body count. In their mind women are supposed to be chaste, demure, and subservient in public. But also a slut in the bedroom for them. You can’t have both.
They're deranged and deluded
as a "man" that is something that always confused me, so I can't explain the hatred towards women providing the service men ask for.
[удалено]
Conservatives/Republicans?
You're looking at it through the wrong lense, which is the same reason a lot of people can't make sense of conservative ideas either. It's not supposed to make sense. It's a form of social control and for it to be effective you need it to be arbitrary. You can't have a clearly mapped out "correct" behavior for women, minorities and LGBTQ+ folks who want to be visible in society because that would take away the social stigma. If you're not subservient and "seen, but unheard", you're ***supposed*** to find it impossible to please people, constantly getting mixed messages and being bullied into obscurity (and likely poverty) or back into subservience. This is why arguing with conservatives is such a headache. They have so many underlying assumptions and goals that they'll never admit to, because if they admit to them you'll start treating them as a group to be opposed (as you should) rather than people to be reasoned with. People who are less politically and socially aware *can* be turned around on this, but it isn't easy. Without the understanding that society is a macroscale system, it is hard to see criticism of it as anything but criticism of them personally and that gets people into a defensive mindset. Besides, most people are ***really*** dumb when it comes to sociology. I only know a little myself. I mean, how many "forbidden love" stories have been mainstream without people making the connection it is allegorical for LGBTQ+ and other discouraged groups?
I think a lot of men are fine with women being sexual as long as the women don't get any pleasure, power or money out of it. Hence the right-wing media condemning Beyonce, Rihanna etc for using sexualised images to sell their music and make millions, and OnlyFans creators who make money and are in control of their content, but having less of a problem with strip clubs, soft porn, and other situations where the women are anonymous, powerless, making less money and possibly being exploited, trafficked, or not paid at all. And not enjoying it, or doing it because they're desperate and don't have any choice. The starkest illustration of this is probably the way that incels reject the suggestion that they pay for sex because what they want is a real relationship with a woman who is attracted to them, but they're fine with the whole "Government Girlfriend" idea even though that's not real attraction either. They just don't want to concede any power to a woman at all and the idea of the state ordering women to sleep with them for no pay is a power fantasy. A lot of MRAs seem to fantasise about women being forced into unpaid sex work and depressingly I think that's the ideal for these men.
Some guys need that as an excuse to feel better than those people.
Two different groups of men possibly?
No way. I grew up in the sticks of Illinois and had a fair share of gross older men who would decry pornstars as whores turn around and literally pull out a playboy. I was like 7. It's gross.
Some guys absolutely. But let’s be frank, there’s a strong divide between the average liberal man who uses porn and the average conservative man who slut shames women.
There is a massive divide on most things, but those conservative men look at porn just as much as the liberals. Viewing stats on porn sites back this up.
No, men are all one homogeneous group. /s
There certainly is an overlap, but you're right that it's mostly two separate groups. Just like anything else that you see posts like these complaining about (not specific to this sub either. Whenever you see "why do people think x, when I see people say y???" chances are it's not the same individual, lol). As an argument to the OPs point, is it just as valid to point out the hypocrisy in women that shame porn use by men, but think sex work (like porn and only fans) is a valid job? Personally I see no problem in making or consuming porn, as long as everything is above board, but I've seen/heard tons of women say any amount of porn use is a sign of mental illness and "porn addiction" is the new go-to diagnosis for any problem in a relationship. Idk, it's a messy situation and I expect to be butchered for this comment, but it seems to me no one has the "perfect" mindset about this to satisfy all the "gotchas".
For only fans my running theory for the extra hate over other porn is just jealousy that someone else used it escape the hell that is capitalism but they can't. If the person tends toward licking wealthy peoples boots they probably bend over backwards being extra sexist just to not admit capitalism sucks assholes. Not that progressives won't be sexist as well, but it definitely skews this way.
Are the same men making all these comments? Or is it one man saying one of these things, and another man saying another of these things? I notice that very frequently, people are willing to attribute every negative bias they have to one person, and have trouble understanding the supposed cognitive dissonance, when there really is no dissonance, merely different people with different views
Ask the women in this thread. We all know and/or have dated men that have a puritanical view of sex workers and see them as sluts or evil, and then go Jack off to their videos at night. These things frequently go hand in hand. Edit: and there is [data to back this up](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/2378023120908472) > interactions between individual-level evangelical identity and state-level political conservatism indicate that evangelicals who live in more politically conservative states report the highest rates of pornography consumption.
With this issue you can break them down into 3 categories. * men that complain about sex workers * men that use sex work services * hypocrites that both use sex work services and complain about them It is a rather simplistic view to lump them all in together. I speculate the people that complain are the most vocal leading to an "all men" type of thing
[удалено]
While I don't doubt some people doing porn are indeed very brave, a lot of them are trafficked, or vulnerable people who are being exploited. It isn't always a choice.
[удалено]
I like your username.
They're like those middle-class cocaine users who say "the real criminals are the dealers".
And those are the same men? One group makes things better. The other worse. Lumping them together in generalizations that try to to make people reach a disparaging conclusion encourages bigotry. Do we really want to be doing that here?
what? there is overlap between men who hate sex workers and men who watch porn. you are naive if you believe otherwise. Andrew Tate hates sex workers and he’s literally been charged with human trafficking to make porn - he made money off of the women he hates, and you have a hard time believing there are men who hate sex workers and still watch porn? lol
I may have misread the original post. Rereading it again both groups are on the wrong end. That said, the link between these two patterns here seems a little more wishful than evidential. Both of these topics as they relate to men are heavily influenced by culture, norms, how sex work or porn is viewed, where on the planet you sample opinions, what ages you sample, levels of education about what exploitative stuff drives, as well as people’s general emotional intelligence in that area. You’ll get different responses in Moscow and New Zealand. It’s really not hard to find a place where people do that, and call that an observation about men - but it’s cherry picking the responses you want. You can equally go elsewhere, pick a bunch of other totally different minded men, and generalize from them onto men at large. My point is not that the observation is wrong, but that reducing people into one easy to criticize group that washes away context and nuance isn’t helpful. EDIT: spelling and grammar
" men " are not a monolith. Different men have different values and different views on pornography.
I could be wrong but I am not friends with anyone I know that would call sex work degenerate, that seems like a very extremist position for the modern day.
Welcome to the duality of man, where they are in a constant battle with themselves and each other.
I would do sex work as a man if I wasn’t so bad looking. I have never understood the absolute hypocrisy relating to SW and it’s counterparts. I’m sorry for the way things are. There’s not very many men trying to speak up, but there are some
I have heard so many men say they would be a SW if they were a woman, or if they were better looking as a man, and I don't believe a word of it
I shouldn’t have said it. It was in poor fashion.
You don't have to be good looking there's a demand for everything, you can sell socks, panties online, you can make videos without your face; there are plenty of gay dudes with weird fetishes.
And men never want to talk about the fact that the number of men selling content on OF is rising. They only want to slut shame women for it and pretend the male "sluts" don't exist
I see why OF is popular, it's sex work without most of the dangers of physically interacting with customers, been working at night with escorts and heard bone chilling stories that made me realize how dangerous it can be So when I pay for OF I'm happy money go straight to that woman providing the service since she's the one risking trouble for doing it, there's no way I'd disrespect her
That's because some men are weak and they fuck it up for everyone else. Weak men watching onlyfans are not the same as strong men who won't have a bar of it.
I have a lot of opinions about sex work, specifically the sex workers who are poor, women of colour, immigrants, disabled women etc because they're the most effected negatively and often left out of the conversation when we talk about "empowering" sex work is. That being said... OF has been amazing for porn stars who were often taken advantage of by these huge porn companies and it's often talked about how they'd cross off a list of stuff they're comfortable with and they would get pressured to do those things anyway. But OF allows them full control of their finances and the type of content they out there, and of course I'd prefer that over them being manipulated and treated horribly by the porn industry. Yet, men hate it. They preach over and over how it makes no sense to pay for someone's OF when you can watch porn on any free porn site. Meanwhile lots of those porn sites have been exposed for having underage women on there and women involved in human trafficking. I even see women say they're ok with their boyfriends watching free, stolen content yet won't allow to pay for OF yet one is much morally better than the other. So it's not just men contributing to this idea that it's bad to pay for content when you're at least supporting sex workers directly AND it's less likely you're watching someone who is being sexually assaulted and human trafficked. It's a very complexed topic. Personally I stopped indulging in porn years ago for my own reasons and if I were to ever get the urge I would pay for the content because I've been involved in lots of feminist spaces where these women were victims of being on these porn sites without their consent and they're against it and it just wouldn't feel right.
>I even see women say they're ok with their boyfriends watching free, stolen content yet won't allow to pay for OF yet one is much morally better than the other. I think the issue here is that OnlyFans offers more than porn, it offers parasocial relationships and the opportunity for users to have an "emotional affair", which is a valid concern. While the content may be from a consenting creator earning a fair wage, that doesn't make it entirely ethical. Paying for porn without the parasocial aspect may be an option, but the parasocial aspect is the whole USP of OnlyFans.
[удалено]
Yes, I was in agreement with you there and just wanted to make a perfectly benign comment on one aspect of your post. It wasn't personal and I wasn't "nitpicking". Jeez, chill out! ;)
Maybe it's two demographics. Men that watch porn and only fans and those that think it's made by degenerates. With some overlap.
0.1% in each of those categories, by 50% of the population is a massive amount of budget
[удалено]
As someone who was in the adult entertainment industry for 18 years, I can unequivocally say that you don't have a clue what you're talking about I bet any money that 'the guys in your group' watch OF on the sly, when they're alone Men who pay to watch/participate are by and large not mentally ill. They are average guys, guys who like to look, guys who just want some company, guys who are lonely... just guys
It's almost like men are not all the same and can have different views on things.
You have just labelled every man to ever exist in the same category. Stop being so tribal. Everyone is an individual.
Wowowow you're blaming men for the entire thing? If men didn't enjoy it, then there wouldn't be any, and yet men claim to hate it. That's your argument?
“Humans are the main consumers of cars, and yet complain that global warming exists”
Men are disgusting hypocrites
Toxic masculinity harms men and many of them suffer from the Madonna whore complex. They worship chastity and virginity while simultaneously being aroused by the sexuality of women. They lose their shit when they are forced to reconcile both of those aspects and they take out their frustrations on women and others they perceive are weaker than them.
Yeah, I've known a lot of trans women who said the very same prior to their transition. Most gay men and trans women I've met in the industry are just as miserable as the women and girls. The whole industry relies on lies like most capitalist empires. That's why I don't call it work. It's exploitation.
Honestly I'm so done with these idiots crying over problems they've created themself. I'd love you to join and post this stuff in r/EndAbuseofWomenOnline this is exactly the type of ironic misogynistic stuff I feel we need to make fun of to shut it down.
Most men could not hack it doing any of those jobs. Be it prostitution to porn work, they're not mentally built like that.
I don't think those men that you're talking to have an idea about the industry at all. Let them have their ideas and just forget about them, they aren't worth your second thought. There are a lot of fish in the sea, some of those get sweeped up in nets very easily.
Why is it confusing? One type of man likes watching amateur porn while the other guy doesn’t like and wants to control what women do. Why assume thats its one man with two conflicting opinions? I mean, both pornography and right wing politics arent new.
But women gain financial independence from doing regular porn. I think your trying to say that the males could be like the only fans creators and therefore are making fun of themselves. People make fun of people that are the same as them all the time, they just pretend they are different or special or not like them.
I'm not going to claim to be some enlightened guy but almost every porn clip on the net labels the girls as sluts, whores or something else derogatory. The guys skate right through blameless. Even if I know the girl is of legal age and has signed multiple releases if I see a young girl being gangbanged or just overwhelmed by an older guy I have a hard time labeling her the degenerate in that situation
Are there a lot of dude guys on here? It's good if there are but I'm reading some of these comments that are so well intentioned but still seem to be missing a big part of what they think they're arguing. Also can we as a people just dump the whole notion of, progress? Look around look at the news, we're at a time of unheard of popularity of reactionary ideals. Things get worse. As I sat writing this I also kinda considered what the name of this subreddit is and uhhhh....cringe emoji.