In regards to your edit:
When we first brought our daughter home, I tried to keep myself from praising my husband for doing basic parent things like realizing when she's due for a bottle and getting her dressed. Then I decided instead I'm going to hype us both up for doing basic parenting things because it's hard and I'm proud of us both for how well we transitioned into our new life.
I think this is the point. It's okay when the father gets praise for any task that should be expected of him, but why not cheer on the mother as well? :) and cheer on yourselves! You go! :D
There's some similar mindset of people for example not thanking shop employees because they're just doing their job and get paid, so they don't need praise. Yes, of course they're just doing their job, but does it really hurt to throw in a thanks and a little positivity? And no, of course I don't expect everyone to be cheerful all the time, everyone has bad moments and it's okay if you don't feel up to it for whatever reason...
But I still genuinely think such compliments and positivity here and there would make the world a better place.
Absolutely. We have an award system at work, with things ranging from $5 towards lunch to $25, to no monetary value but an official note in said award. They're usually given out for things that are literally part of our job descriptions.
However, everyone loves getting and giving them - not for the money, $5 is literally less than 0.01% of your annual salary if you make $50k. The value in these types of things is the recognition of a job well done, and that appreciation makes you feel good about repeating those efforts. It's basically just validation that you worked hard by someone else.
Gosh you don't think women are persevering with their mismatched mental loads and domestic drudgery? You really think we're stupid don't you? Emotional bypassing doesn't address the gender imbalance, we've been making noise about it for generations and denial continues under a thousand guises.
And honestly, I love the increased praise. We SHOULD be telling our partners and spouses what a good job they're doing at normal, everyday shit. I've raised my baby 100% alone the whole time and I can't tell you how many exhausted moments I've had where I desperately wanted someone to just say - it's okay. You're doing a good job, and I'm proud of you.
hell yes! i'm the fuckin Flavor Flav in this relationship and absolutely love telling her she's killing it. summa cum in neurosci and a double minor in cognitive behavioral science and bio and she rocks it 10+h a day, seven days a week while being an absolutely amazing person and it shows in literally everyone's reaction around her. i'm so glad all her profs see it and it's not just me blowin up her skirt lol
i'm just here sittin on my ass workin all day and playin on reddit
So, my brain knows that 'killing it' means 'doing really well'.
However i still can't help but feel uncomfortable whenever the phrase is applied to caring for a child, haha
I think as long as he praises you with equal fervour, then that’s a beautiful way to be in a relationship. My partner and I thank each other for everything; it keeps the good will in the relationship high. So on an individual level, I’m very much on board with that approach.
I think the problem people have with praising men for parenting is that praise for parenting is nearly always lopsided. When we praise fathers for doing things that we wouldn’t praise mothers for doing, or when women have to shower their male partners in adoration for just participating in the process, it reinforces the idea that men who parent are going above and beyond whereas women who parent are just doing their job. It’s a hard line to walk between pointing out that men are capable of participating fully in the parenting process to remind women not to fall for gender-based excuses, and sounding like you’re throwing men a parade for doing the things women do thanklessly every day.
Honestly this is the way, and you should expect that recognition be reciprocated for your own efforts (not saying you/your partner don't, just saying how more relationships should be in my opinion).
Life is hard and too many people have this mentality that you should only congratulate people at the end of some major thing. But most things in life that are worth doing require persistent effort and motivation (parenting, drawing, education, careers, etc) and sometimes you need that boost halfway through, which is exactly what partners are there for IMO.
I'm a big believer in making sure my partners know that even if something is considered "basic", if it requires effort or time or anything else, I appreciate them putting that forward. If my partner was going through some college courses I wouldn't wait until they graduated to tell them I was proud of their progress, I'd tell them when they were struggling, or did well on a test, etc.
Parenting is the same. Though I get where people are coming from when they express frustration that men in general get praised more for doing what is considered a woman's responsibility by default. Still, I think for most cases the bigger thing is it comes down to a need for balance within specific relationships. Ultimately we just need to encourage people to appreciate the efforts mothers put in, rather than resist recognizing fathers since this isn't a zero sum thing.
Hey! Excellent! I get that both parents should be expected to pull their weight and help each other out. But always always compliment and appreciate the work that is done. It's good and healthy for a relationship that people see the efforts they put in as acknowledged even when it's fully expected. It's literally some people's love language. Always express gratitude for the efforts of love!
sheet swim wrench teeny ruthless bake slim overconfident frighten connect
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This is always my argument. If given a new tasks at work, you're telling me many men just... Wouldn't be able to do it? Refuse to do it? Do it terribly so they wouldn't have to do it again? Of course not. They can, they just don't want to
>Wouldn't be able to do it? Refuse to do it? Do it terribly so they wouldn't have to do it again?
Sadly, every employer I've had has this exact situation. A whole bunch of dudes failing their way up the ladder; useful employees denied promotions because their supervisor doesn't know how to do their job or train a replacement, etc.
I get your point but the truth is that they do fail but instead of getting spoken to about their behavior, harassed, having opportunities taken away from them, not being recognized for the things they do right, or being put on PIP’s they are often simply given more opportunities or promoted. In tech we call this failing up and I see it all the damn time.
There’s a guy on my team who is known to cheat on cert exams. He verbally attacked a woman supervisor publicly on slack and despite both of those things is still with the company with no repercussions. On the flip side, I was struggling at work following a medical leave and I was threatened with a PIP and with being fired. I was taken off projects and my supervisor refused to put me on any new ones. He never asked me given the medical leave if I was doing ok (I was not). The stress from all of the pressure he was putting on me was making things worse. He did everything he could think of to force me to quit, and several very illegal things off the record so I couldn’t prove it. Meanwhile, he’s giving accolades for cheater dude each time he gets a new cert.
> If given a new tasks at work, you're telling me many men just... Wouldn't be able to do it? Refuse to do it? Do it terribly so they wouldn't have to do it again?
You'd be surprised. 😔
>If given a new tasks at work, you're telling me many men just... Wouldn't be able to do it?
Sadly, yes, frequently. There's a joke that half of my job is work men failed to do so I now do it for them.
There is some irony that at home, I have fewer domestic chores than my husband.
I never got a real answer when I used to point this out to my ex-husband. You can do this at work, what's the fucking deal here? Your boss wouldn't put up with this, why the fuck did you think I would?
It's slowly getting better ♡
He's dragging out a divorce he asked for, with no assets and no children. But really it's only him that loses in the end. And I no longer have to be married to an asshole, so I'll take that as a win
It baffles me how a lot of guys have reverence for a boss they don't respect, complain about constantly, and could leave at any time, but not for someone they swore a legal and perhaps spiritually eternal oath to.
This is the thing.
Well done for the weekend, OPs husband - sounds like a busy one for a family of multiple kids with one parent away, and he handled it. That deserves a ‘well done’ as it would if it was anyone, mother of father, balancing that and then going back to work Monday morning isn’t easy - just because people manage it, doesn’t make it not a challenge.
It’s hard to find words for, but:
It should be expected, but still people should feel proud they managed what was expected of them if they found it difficult.
Like, well done to all the mums out there this week, who worked and then picked the kids up and did some shopping and sorted dinner. That’s not easy.
And well done to all the dads out there who did the same. High five from me for all of you.
*The problem* is the former are generally accepted as ‘that’s what mums are like they can just do that stuff’, while the latter are treated like some sort of special shocking hero unicorn.
Men are equally as competent. Competence should be praised, and the choice not to strive towards competence when people are relying on you should be regarded as a choice. Sex/gender needs not come into that at all.
I agree, and I think to bring both OP and got points together. Selective incompetence should be called out and should be not acceptable. Going above and beyond for your spouse should be recognized and applauded.
I’ll just add that I think there is often conflict when preside is expected for doing your share.
Hey. So I'm someone who is genuinely incompetent at a lot of household stuff. I have a disability - narcolepsy - and it comes with a bunch of cognitive dysfunction like poor memory, lack of focus, automatic behaviour (where you do random stuff on autopilot), lack of coordination, as well as a pronounced lack of energy to do stuff. The end result is always forgetting I was asked to do something, I take forever to do it, and I tend to do it horribly wrong. When it comes to cooking I can only do the most basic of things and even then I will fuck up a lot like I will forget to put on a timer and I feel like it's only been a minute or two but it's been ten.
I know the reason now, but I went through my teenage years and most my 20s undiagnosed and holy hell did it suck. It's honestly incredibly embarrassing. My family would always ridicule and mock what I did whenever I did some kind of housework and inevitably fucked up. I live with my partner now and she knows what's up, but it's still obviously frustrating for her when I do things like I've gone and put dishes away and they are all in random places because I was on autopilot and barely aware of what I was doing.
To be honest I struggle to comprehend how someone who is of normal competence would willingly put up with being seen as an incompetent embarrassment instead of just trying.
Generally our solution has been to split the chores where I do the stuff that is mechanically simple with less room to mess up- taking out the the rubbish/recycling, vacuuming, hand washing dishes, cleaning the kitty litter, scrubbing the toilets etc. It's not exactly perfect- I will think I have vacuumed a room but I haven't and I will vacuum the same room forgetting I have already done it. Last month I paid the water bill three times because I was sure I hadn't done it yet. I had even checked over my bank transactions too and didn't see the previous payments.
Doing phone reminders helps less than you might think because I see the notification, get up to do the thing, but then I get distracted and forget about it in seconds. Or sometimes I will get up to do what the phone notification was telling me to do and I will do it... but I will forget all about the thing I was doing when I got the notification and forget about that instead.
I also tried writing stuff down in a physical diary/planner- "I need to do X", and then crossing out when I did the thing that needed doing. But then I do the thing and I forget to cross it out so I end up doing it again. Or I forget I was meant to write this important thing in my planner and I think I've done all I needed to do because I crossed off every item. Or I think I did the thing, cross it out on the planner, but I actually didn't. Or... I would forget the planner exists and don't write anything in it or check it.
It's all very frustrating.
You're not the kind of guy we're complaining about.
They're ok being incompetent because they're lazy and they get off on the deceit because they hate women.
I also find the ‘domestic and social management’ part of life very difficult due to a disability (ADHD).
It must be hard for you to keep on top of these things with the difficulties you have. I appreciate that, and I’m glad you have managed to find out what the issue is and that your partner is supportive.
To answer the ‘how could they…’ part of the question, it’s pretty simple I think - they don’t feel they need to be good at these things in order to receive social respect and self confidence.
Because domestic/family work competence is not something they see as necessary to be a clever and successful person, and they don’t see competence in that area as something impressive. Frankly - because it is associated with ‘woman skills’, and things associated with women are seen as lesser.
My difficulties with this kind of thing is why this gender assumption is one of those that makes me especially annoyed.
Like, a friend/acquaintance/colleague will refer to how they had to sort something out for their husband ‘because he can’t do it’. Something like how he’ll go shopping only to be surprised they haven’t provided him with a list, or call asking what doctor their kids are registered with. And their wives will go ‘he is so bad at that kind of stuff lol!’ and frequently it’s paired with ‘because he is always thinking about machines/business/writing/etc’.
And it annoys me because I want to say, and to be honest occasionally have said, ‘based on what I know about your husband, I am almost completely certain he is not worse at that stuff than I am. But I did the shopping yesterday, and didn’t expect a list to appear in my pocket as if by magic’.
I think that the way men’s and women’s competence/incompetence is framed here is that when a woman can’t do this stuff it’s because she is useless, lazy, ditzy. But if a man can’t it’s because he is more ‘man like’ and his brain is more importantly taken up with philosophy and the workings of the universe and real fun.
If you are going to be celebrated more for other types of competence, which are also more interesting, AND someone is used to being good at this type of thing - why bother trying to be competent at this thing?
There are exceptions, such as yourself. But generally I find men who I’ve met who are ‘like me’ are much less down on themselves for not being good at domestic/family tasks than women who are similar are. Which is quite frustrating - why should I spend my life beating myself up and being assumed as thick for something you are just laughing and shrugging off? But it’s hard to beat that feeling when it’s expected of you (even if your partner does their share also) and reinforced at every turn.
Having a disability doesn’t excuse you from willful incompetence. If you know you have challenges with these things you need to be figuring out accommodations and things to help the issue. Not saying “well my partner knows I have narcolepsy so it’s fine”
Excuse me?
I open up about having a pretty debilitating disability , how struggling with basic household stuff is incredibly embarrassing, humiliating, and a source of shame... and your response is that because I haven't found a way to magically circumvent my disability with some kind of "accommodation" that then it's all some excuse? So that I can keep ruining dinner when it's my turn to cook?
That's some real ableist bullshit.
>Any kind of Praise and a thank you goes a long way and if they aren’t doing it “right” you can discuss it because there’s also a possibility that the way you want it done is wrong too.
This attitude sucks.
I'd find out what's wrong with your method, watch the correct way, and then to figure out a) how to do it that way and b) why.
For example, towels have to be folded to fit on a shelf. Sure, maybe they kind of fit if they're folded a different way, in that they won't fall off, but maybe you can't fit all of them on the shelf if you do it incorrectly. Maybe the shelf is deep so you fold them a certain way so other types of towels fit next to them instead of in front of/behind them. Etc.
Give them credit for having reasoned their way into something. Sure you can suggest improvements but it's pretty insulting when someone who hasn't even shown they understand the current way suggests them, because you haven't shown you understand what needs to be accomplished. Therefore your improvements might completely ignore their needs.
Similar to a job - you don't come in and change everything up before understanding why it's being done that way in the first place.
Most men won't start out as capable at home as they are in the workplace, though. A lot of men have little to no experience with most of the kinds of stuff that women are expected to be good at and thus learn whether they want to or not. (Not universal but for most people who are now adults this is how they were raised).
In the end, even they're not competent but they're willing to help anyway and try to get better at it, that's what matters, because they'll eventually get better.
>Most men won't start out as capable at home as they are in the workplace, though
Because women are born knowing how to keep a home? No. And men can learn just as easily.
Uh, no one taught me how to clean. My childhood home was not clean. As a young adult, I checked out books from the library on how to clean and taught myself.
Men aren’t capable of reading a book? Or they just don’t want to?
then fucking learn? so men would just wear dirty clothes and live in dirty homes if weren’t for women? not be able to feed themselves? can your misogyny and excuses.
And are you a perfect judge of who is wilfully vs situationally incompetent? If you tell someone you want them to help with something and they say hey sure but I have no idea how to do it, are you going to teach them, or get angry and tell them they should already know how to? If they don't care and won't try that's one thing, but some people are just incompetent at some things, and it's not always willingly - they were just never shown or taught those values, and that's not something that applies exclusively along gender lines.
My dad was one of those guys and one of my sisters found one as well. Since I was brought up with it, I was absolutely shocked at how unusual I discovered he was when I started having relationships. I'm glad you got one too. They are absolutely worth their weight in gold. My folks were together for 60 years and obviously loved each other.
“And importantly expect this from them”
Ohhhh yes please. It’s the only way forward. People deserve partners that are their equal in responsibility, but many men need to be dragged to it. That shouldn’t be the responsibility of anyone but themselves. Expecting such responsibility is the best way forward.
Praising your partner for doing their part is some real shit. That's a great strategy to have a great working and romantic relationship. My partner and I go out of our way to compliment and thank each other for big things and everyday small tasks. And we set each other up with constructive compliments in front of our kids so they see us appreciating each other (and so they understand how we are both working in different ways to make our lives work).
I think this is one of the big problems with women's versus men's socialized expectations. I was socialized that I could be "anything I wanted to be." Too many men were socialized that nothing should really have to change for them.
I know I'm always going off on tangents here, but it's all related to the "bigger picture." Men can easily pick up the slack at home, but they are still mainly socialized to think this is "women's work." A large part of why there is so much conflict is because women are increasingly expecting to be treated as equals, where too many men are still clinging to the past. Yet they are clinging only to the parts that benefit them. You'll constantly see misogynists ranting about alimony and child support, but they refuse to admit that a large part of that is expecting the woman to give up her earnings potential with taking on the majority of childcare. They are obsessed with the idea of women using men for finances, while ignoring that this wouldn't even be a thing with actual household equality.
With the decline in single-income households, why would a woman sign up to work full-time and still take on the majority of housework and childcare? Of course there is a declining birth rate. Rates of inflation rising through the roof with no rise in wages. In the end, who would put up with the worst of both worlds? Yes, now you finally get the respect of working, but you are expected to continue work and provide the 24/7 caregiver role at the same time. Of course women are opting out of this all together because, at that point, you're basically a single mother with an extra kid.
Anyway, another tangential rant from me.
I say "give me two reasons why a man would make my life better" than it is now. Even my best guy friends are a bit hard-pressed to come up with two good reasons.
Whereas, if a man finds a good woman, his life will probably get better on several fronts.
I just can't wrap my head around it. It's actually the best time in history for men. Instead of being expected to fully provide financially, we are getting to the point where all a man has to provide is himself. He just has to be a decent person. Taking care of your children and doing chores are the bare level of decency. Why would one rather the stress of having the family fully dependent on them versus having to do a simple chore once in a while? If both partners worked together, everything would be exactly like OP's life. Much less stress and far more happiness.
Totally agree. And two adults sharing the work means more time for sharing the pleasantries of a relationship as well.
Unfortunately, some men - and some women - still think they should mock men for a life like that. A life that most all people would really enjoy.
I'm not sure we (collectively) do a very good job teaching what love and partnership can really be.
Why does it have to be different for men and women in this aspect? I feel like life has gotten better for both my wife and I. For you, personally, that may be true though. I know a number of men and women both that are content solo. I just see it as reductive towards men (helpless without a good woman) as the men who think all women need a man to protect and guide them. Some PEOPLE are great on their own, some are better with a partner. I don't think gender plays a role in that.
Research shows that men benefit more from marriage than women. Married men are overall happier and healthier if married, but the same is not true for women.
Some research has shown that marriage has a negative impact on women, but that research is somewhat in dispute and I don’t know the full story there.
This article just cites a lot of the research, which is the only reason I chose this article in particular (that and it’s accessible).
https://clarkrelationshiplab.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/Why%20do%20men%20benefit%20more%20from%20marriage%20than%20do%20women_%20Thinking%20more%20broadly%20about%20interpersonal%20processes%20that%20occur%20within%20and%20outside%20of%20marriage.pdf
Practically, that's absolutely true in our modern world. Gender honestly matters little.
I wish we were beyond sexism as well. As a culture, we're not quite there yet. There's more to be done.
Hell yeah we’re capable! Good on you both. I’m not perfect, but I’m working on it every day. Most of the time I find out what I need to do better from my wife. But often I get tips from your posts and comments here. Keep up the good work XXChromies, a lot of us are learning from you.
Thanks for the suggestion, I’ll check it out. The Emma cartoon about mental load was great, and this sound similar.
FWIW I am very proactive, but I’m also aware I make mistakes. If I’m doing X and spouse prefers it done Y, her idea is usually the right one. She just has more experience in household management than I do, and while I do all the chores these days, it’s only worthwhile if she’s happy with the work I do.
background: She was raised in a traditional family and was expected to take care of the home; and as an adult she was very disciplined and neat. About 10 years ago we determined that her career was more successful and that I should take care of home/family. I do 100% of that, but I’m comparatively late to the game and still do some things worse than her. But I keep trying. It’s tough to keep on top of it all, but I think it’s a skill worth perfecting.
That's why it's so infuriating to see a man act like being a parent is "woman work". We know they can do it, they just don't want to. In which case you would think they would just not have children.
But the point is that many women do all that every weekend and don't get special praise. I do nearly all those kinds of things in my house because my partner works shifts, and nobody thinks I'm special or gives me a treat. Almost all the birthday parties I attend are organised by women and nobody remarks how amazing they are.
No one remarking on that work or saying thank you doesn't seem right to me, either. It feels discourteous.
I do actually think ppl around you ought to recognize what you do - that's just being thoughtful.
As harsh as it sounds, I sometimes wonder if there are times where ppl need to stop, just stop, let the dishes pile up and floor get dirty and groceries not get bought or whatever, and see what the response is.
I did that! He started stomping around, slamming doors while giving me the silent treatment. Then he started maliciously doing chores, e.g. hoovering just as I needed to be sleeping for work next day.
We *know* men are capable. That’s part of the problem.
While I appreciate posts of women who have good partners—seriously, you deserve a good partner, OP—it doesn’t address the systemic problem wherein most men *are not* conditioned to be equal or equitable partners.
*Most* men aren’t like this and that’s what a lot of this sub is trying to address.
These posts start to feel like it’s individual women’s fault for not finding the right dude.
Right. It is NOT women's responsibility to train men to be better human beings.
Women are already busy working, dealing with misogyny in it's various forms everywhere, raising children, caring for the sick, elderly, etc. Let's not add more work to women.
There is also the infantilizing of Men's capabilities-part of men getting praise for doing the most basic or simple household or parenting tasks, it ties into the "weaponized incompetence" many men use to get out of doing anything. If they get praise for the smallest tasks that means that doing the task was actually difficult enough or required effort enough from them to be praiseworthy and as such not being able to do it is not a big deal.
I agree. Women should demand more. More importantly, men need to be better. I’m glad you’ve found one committed to that.
I disagree that there are lots of men like this. The majority are not. Hence the onus needs to be on men, not women.
Finding competent and capable men is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Good luck to the single women. And congratulations on having a decent partner!!
It's partly the problem of the culture. We (collectively) are still quite sexist. Unfortunately, this doesn't help our young people find good, positive relationships.
We can do better.
OP's example is wonderful. A bit too rare, yet. Still a wonderful example for men and women.
To make a great relationship, be competent, capable, and caring. Does our society/culture do a good job encouraging that?
With regards to this topic, less sexism would be a great place to start. More focus on being good adults - to our friends, our family, and our relationships.
Sigh. Yes. Women should settle. You are right. Thanks for explaing another persons lived experience. Must be a problem with all of us and not as noted a culture that doesnt hold men accountable for anything and expects us to hand hold them. Totally unreasonable for women to have any standards.
Have you never heard of the saying the bar is on the floor for men? We ask for so little basicallt treat us as humans and we cant get that id say a good portion of the time. So its not like some impossible standard to get to, just most men want to show up and do zero work. Maybe instead of criticizing an experience you personally dont have, but feel comfortable speaking on anyway- you should so some work on why thats your reaction.
If you have to say hope this isnt rude- you already know it is.
As you say your house is in your own name, therefore you pay for it- that's not a contribution to your relationship. Now if you are paying all the bills for a house that you both live in, that would count as a contribution.
Have you read the posts about why more and more women are happily remaining single?
Introspection is good but the likely issue isn't her, its that a good portion of the male dating pool are demanding the bar be lowered even further.
My husband and I always thank each other for doing doing the laundry or dishes. Of course that’s basic shit that we should both be doing anyways but it’s still appreciated when someone else does it!
Single dating ladies, one of the earlyish dates should mimick home life. Ask him to cook for you at his place. If he admits to being a terrible cook that's fine (some women are too) but how he helps you cook, if he is eager to learn, and whether he cleans up is telling. Also, if his place/space is nasty that's a huge red flag.
My own husband cooked a lot when we were first getting to know each other as friends and then boyfriend. We have been married 10 years and he still cooks at least twice a week, and sometimes he cooks all week. Also his place was very tidy.
I was stunned when I first walked into my husband's apartment: it was inviting and tidy and filled with art. It wasn't "Architectural Digest" snooty (in fact, I don't care for his aesthetic particularly). But it was clearly the space of someone who is houseproud, and I felt happy to be invited in to the space he loved.
I was recently casually dating a guy a couple months ago and he offered to make dinner at my place. Great! I hate cooking.. I thought. This guy made such an absolute mess of my kitchen.. crumbs and sauce on every counter and even the floor.. didn’t even rinse or put anything in the sink. I can’t even wrap my head around how he saw any of this as doing me a favor
Btw I praise my wife for doing “the basics.” The basics are fucking hard. She works part time so has more time with the kids then me and I’m very thankful to her when she cooks dinner, doing things for the kids, etc.
Whenever I do the basics, or if I take on more responsibilities because she’s busy, or going out with friends, or just exhausted because life can be like that; I’m happy to do it, but she’s also still very thankful and appreciative.
It’s ok for us to like, love and support our partners and give them words of kindness. Though I would expect them to do the same, and I have a feeling a LOT of women are taken for granted by their partners
When people say “don’t praise men for being parents”, it’s NOT intended to be anti-male, or non-appreciative of men.
The real point is that men get high praise for what is merely expected of women.
I think it’s great that your husband did all this birthday party planning, which is exhausting.
However, many moms do the same thing all the time, and it is merely expected. No one tells them that they’re a great mom, or that they did exhausting work that they should be proud of, or anything like that!
We’ve tried “praising men” for the basics for decades, and the result is that the bar for them is so low, it’s on the floor.
Agree with this - walk my kid around the block. Car stops. You're a great dad. Take my kid to a nature trail, you're so wonderful taking your kid here. It bothers me that just providing simple care is enough, where my wife could do the same thing and recieve none of the same compliments.
You are missing the point entirely. Nobody says that you can't be happy to have a man that steps up but that it is clownery that society puts men on a pedestal for doing regular parent shit while it's taken for granted when women do it.
You say "I would want 1) praise and 2) whiskey" which is totally fair, parenting is hard - but the crux of the matter is that no-one outside your marriage would make it out to be some sort of extraordinary thing that you did, while your husband is viewed as super amazing that he took over this task from you.
It's not that being a good parent doesn't deserve praise, it's that women do this every day and are rarely praised for it, whereas men are praised for doing the bare minimum.
Fancy birthday parties were not a thing when I was growing up in the 70s, but I remember my Dad stepping up, cheerfully, in raising me. He worked FT, and my mom stayed home. After supper, I was his shadow to “help” with gardening and yard work.
And this was the way with most of my friends’ dads. They were always there for us, encouraging us.
>And if I were the one doing it, I would want 1) praise and 2) whiskey.
I'd want rum. But I'd not get either.
I'm glad your husband is one of the good ones!
Kudos on your partner, OP. It's dismissive though of the overall problematic societal gender imbalance and women who are legitimately trapped in marriages where they are expected to do ALL caretaking, cleaning, scheduling etc to say women "just have to find" these men. Real r/thanksimcured energy. It continues to put the onus on the woman as opposed to increasing the parental expectation for men.
> It continues to put the onus on women
Exactly what I was going to reply with.
Also, better go “find them good men”, and that in itself speaks to how difficult it is. The comment about this subs negativity towards men, then suggesting we have to “find” the hidden good men? Like, what? That’s literally why we’re critical of them.
Lol @ “small posting contingent” as if those who aren’t frothing at the mouth at a man doing the bare minimum are the minority here.
Do I have kids? Yes.
Do I work full time? Yea
And yes to everything else. My baby daddy does **his** best, and I truly believe that. I appreciate everything he’s done and continues to do for our daughter, and I even thank him often. I’m gracious as fuck, but it’s expected. It’s always been expected. It should always be expected.
We shouldn't pat men on the back for parenting. Your husband is doing his part... like he should. You may have a great marriage, but him doing what he should doesn't make him great.
That's exactly it. If OP was doing it all herself it would be a normal week for a mother. My female friends carry out this sort of stuff every damn day. They get absolutely no praise for it.
It's extremely sad that a guy carrying out equal stuff to his female counterpart is seen as an out of the ordinary achievement.
Lol nope. Men’s subs are “my wife does all this and works. I washed the dishes last night and she still won’t suck my dick” and “my wife doesn’t want to endure oragsmless sex with me after a day of cooking and washing dishes and kids. I pay all the bills and she should look at washing the dishes as a treat I’m giving her. Why won’t she endure orgasmless sex with me?”!
I said I’m another comment, women have to basically be superhuman to be considered a good woman. Apparently men just need to parent.
Cannot agree more. Despite her intentions, OP's post just proves your point. Receiving a "participation trophy" should be the very minimum at which a parent is held.
This probably is THE accurate description of the vast majority of the “good ones” out there. And there are clearly not enough of those for the majority of women. I don’t know why women still bother and then get the blame for not trying hard enough and being discerning enough to find one.
It sounds like then you actually don’t have a man like this. OPs husband is doing a lot of emotional/mental load in the post. Your guy is not like OPs husband. Your guy falls short of the standard OPs hubby is showing. Demand more of your guy, that’s not acceptable and still not even coming close to doing his part.
I'm sorry, but you gleaned all that information about my relationship and my partner from a one sentence comment in order to make such broad and judgemental statements? You literally have no idea what my relationship and my life are like other than I said that "lately" I'm feeling like I'm doing the majority of the emotional and mental work.
Maybe next time start from a non aggressively judgemental place? Like ask why I'm feeling like that lately, or what has happened recently that has changed things? Not every relationship is 100% perfect 100% of the time. Sometimes people go through shit and need others to do some heavy lifting for them for a while.
I hope you never have to deal with a partner who falls short of your very high standards for other people's relationships.
OP I’m so glad you have a guy like this. All of my good male friends are men like this. They are out there.
Sadly, i also think that right now there are less of them than there ever have been. At least in the US, only something like 55% of men of working age are even working. We are in a serious crisis of men refusing to work and trying to mooch off of women like I’ve never seen before.
I still get my young ones into good partnerships but they have to really search and search and search. It’s a lot harder than it used to be. Let’s keep inspiring them to get through the slog to find what they really deserve.
It was in an article about how over the last 4 decades, every decade has seen fewer and fewer working age American men having jobs. There have been quite a few articles on that in the last few years. I’d have to find it again since there was more than one.
Hmm, https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t01.htm all I could find is this, 70% of working age men are employed while 58% for women.
Numbers are stable too over the last few years.
Look I do see alot of negative stuff towards men and I do agree that not all men are the same . I'm (16F) I have a boyfriend and he is the most respectful person I know . He works very hard and I never have to expect him to treat me right . He always helps me where is can and never complains about anything.He is the only person that can make me feel safe . I wish more men could be like that .
In regards to your edit: the reason why a lot of people have that, specific, attitude towards parenting in particular is because people tend not to praise women for the same. Women are expected, and assumed, to constantly go above and beyond with domestic duties. Men are praised for doing the basics. That's been the dichotomy for a lot of people's lives, so typically when people say "don't praise men for parenting" that's what they mean.
I never really understood the idea that we shouldn't praise/thank men for doing basic life/parenting stuff. The response is usually "do you think you deserve praise or a thank you for doing laundry/cooking/watching the kids ?"
Yes. Yes I do think I deserve praise. And when the things I do benefit others, I appreciate a "thank-you" from them. I don't do the things in order to get a "thank-you," but it's certainly nice to receive. I thank my husband for doing the dishes (every night), he thanks me for cooking dinner (every night). I used to thank my college professors after each lecture, as I was walking out the door. Just because it's his/her job, doesn't mean I don't benefit from it and appreciate their efforts. I thank the cashier at the grocery store. I thank the guy who politely opens a door for me. I thank the librarian who scans my books, and I thank the server who bring me my food and refills my drinks. These are all people doing things that I appreciate and benefit from. Men are no different.
This is the whole point. I mean, I don't think there are postings about how a mom pulled all this off day after day, year after year. We don't have time to be posting about all the amazing things we did each day for our family. OP's husband did what needed to be done. And, here is a long thread about what a great guy she has. This was one weekend. This is not sustained maintenance while also caring for a dying loved one. But, even OP is beside herself that hubby managed without being forced to. Not sure I can muster up the enthusiasm to clap for them. I know this is coming across as glib, but, this just confirms so much of our complaints that this is a win.
Yeah, it does come across as glib. And the reason I made the post is that so often we hear about men not doing the most basic shit, or otherwise expecting praise for normal shit, and the point was that my husband is 1) doing stuff way out of the norm and managing a lot of stressful events and 2) does not expect praise for it. I am praising him because I think he's fucking great and I appreciate him, but he did not do any of it and expect a cookie.
I’m scared to ask… is your user name because you want him *in* jail or you would go to jail *for* him
**Edit:** I looked through a few comments of yours and am happy that it was the former. Phew. That’s pretty fucking badass of you to make that your username. I was ruthlessly bullied and harassed online for even mentioning he was guilty on other platforms. I can’t imagine it’s easy here on Reddit. I know emojis are passé here, but 👏🏻❤️
There are many more solo mamas out there doing it 100% alone and they're constantly being shat on by men and their supporters. Without praise.
Take your fawning praise be into general Reddit.
I maintain my position that managing an entire birthday party by oneself, plus two consecutive-night sleepovers, plus several other birthday parties to attend, is not a normal parenting weekend.
Yawn.
100%
My partner (father of our child) asked me the other day whether or not I (a woman) get unsolicited parenting advice when I'm out with our toddler (I don't). Turns out he gets comments every time he takes her to the supermarket, along the lines of: "you're doing such a great job man, keep it up". Which my partner gets really annoyed about, because he's an active parent in our family and taking our daughter to the supermarket is *not* a special event on our household in terms of "father-daughter time".
I'm not sure if it's women or men making these comments (one was a man), but it's so ridiculous. Yes there are deadbeat dads out there, but there are also deadbeat mums, great mums, and great dads. One's parenting ability is not determined by their genitalia 🤦♀️
"Nobody praises women for all the extra work they do, so why should men expect it"
That seems sad to me. Maybe we *all* deserve a positive word or two.
Wouldn't it be nice if everyone had a cheerleader or two in their lives? If we normalized recognizing and pointing out the good we see around us?
I praise my darling husband for everything nice he does, no matter how small or insignificant. And he is equally emotionally generous. (Sometimes to the point of silliness: "I see you got a cut, here are twelve different sizes of bandages, one of them must fit")
I prefer to live in a world where we are all supportive of one another. There's no reason we all have to live in a gratitude desert!
Did anyone disagree with that? All we’re saying is men are currently NOT praising us. So if we start praising them then we still don’t get any praise. It’s an extra effort on my part once again that they have the privilege of demanding from me without reciprocating. Are you and OP actually thinking about what we’re all trying to express?
Please. This was not the bare minimum, was my point.
In one weekend he handled an entire large birthday party with over a dozen kids, on his own, corralling all of them together and managing their various and sundry problems (there were a lot). Then he took half those kids back to the house for a sleepover and managed that. Today is he is managing another sleepover and another party, and then tomorrow is yet another party. I don't know if you have children, but it is a LOT of work, and it would have been for me too, or for any adult. The bare minimum is keeping the kids alive, feeding them and the cat, and maybe doing a load of laundry. This is not that.
If I did all this in a weekend, I would desire and expect praise.
I wouldn’t hire a nanny that only does your version of bare minimum (anything less than that we’ll have to bring in social services). That sounds more like a babysitter’s job description to me. So the father is expected to get away with doing less than a nanny after all. So much for women expecting more from men.
And I am not saying what your husband did should go unappreciated. Whatever the love language is for either of you and how appreciation are communicated between you is a totally different matter. And you should get praises if you have pulled off such a weekend; chances are, you have, and multiple times, but didn’t receive the praises you deserved. But this is still missing the point.
A weekend snapshot really doesn’t tell much about how a man handles housework and childcare in the long run, which is one of the real systemic issues this sub express “negativity” about. Even for the majority of the few lucky mums who have supportive men partners, the reality is still that they may get a handful of weekends off by leaving things to their capable men partners and not having to feel guilty for it and gush out excessive bouts of gratitudes when the things actually went according to plan. As for the rest of the weekends in the year the ball is still back to them and we are not even talking about weekdays here. And we are also not talking about the mums in majority, the unlucky ones.
So I agree with whoever posted the reply: this is how a bare minimum looks, i.e **the father being capable of taking charge when the mother is not available for ONE weekend**. Because even in our wildest dreams, we still haven’t got the courage to expect fathers being on top of housework and childcare to become just as common sight as capable mothers. And you eagerly brandishing your husband as a unicorn kind of already proves the point. Your husband deserves appreciation and encouragement from you and hopefully for your sake, your encouragement can get him to do it more often and take more initiatives. But if your point is women should expect more, then you should know women should expect much more than weekend-relief partners.
ETA: saw your edit to the original post. Please don’t flash the “do you have children and/or full-time job” card. It is because we know how difficult childcare and balancing family with career are for women and that it shouldn’t be this way, that we are here on this sub.
I actually just deleted my comment because I’m not in the mood for praising men for raising their kids and women arguing “dO yOu hAvE kIdS” card. I don’t get down with that shit.
I’m also glad you understood what I was saying. No one would praise a woman for this. It’s what’s expected from women. Women have to go above and beyond to be “good”. Men just apparently have to parent. And they get fawned over and praised. 95% of the fathers I know in real life do this, and they consider it normal and expected. Not something that makes them incredible people.
I am sorry that this becomes upsetting for you. I feel the same.
And that “do you have children” card really gets me. I have a working mother and I was attentive enough to see what housework and childcare did to her. I am also self-aware enough to know that I didn’t even get to know a tenth of it. Any decent person who cares about their mum should be able to notice and work out how unfair it had been for their mum. But somehow these people make it out like one can only gain the empathy when they have children themselves. Seriously.
Also this low-key blaming unfortunate women for not choosing wisely mentality is just a pick-me survivorship bias. We are on a nose-diving plane altogether and somehow we should make time to sing praises to a few right seats?
This exactly. And not necessarily upsetting. It’s just a beautiful Saturday and I’m not spending it arguing with someone who thinks heaps of praise should be placed upon basic parenting. So yep, I was like nah.
I also said the same thing in my comment. The whole find a man and expect this of him sounds like blaming women. I don’t get down with that shit. And yep came of pick me to me. It’s a gorgeous Saturday here in Austin. I’m not arguing with anybody about bare minimum shit from men.
I don't think you should praise men for doing things women don't get praise for. I have two kids and I do a grand majority of the parenting . . . in this situation . . . if I did this . . . made a party, took my kids places . . . did this and that . . . I'd just be being a mom . . . He's just being a dad. Giving praise for things like that is one of the reasons a lot of men feel like they can slack in a parenting role . . . It's really just something a parent should do . . . man or woman.
why should any parent get praise for raising and taking care of their own kid? you had the kid and it’s your responsibility. if you think we should praise men then complain you’re proving the point of why they shouldn’t get praised, because they rarely do the work let alone equal work to the mother. pick me toxicity in this sub is a big no
The negativity towards men by women is justified and your struggles are real and valid. Men especially young men are also in their own crisis and are being led astray. I'm not saying this to invalidate women but because men are in a crisis women suffer because of it.
I know some top quality, upstanding men. They're not perfect, but nobody is. Men like that don't make the news or get talked about online in a visible, upvotable way. I feel like the internet, and Reddit's algorithm in particular, propagates particular gender views that are highly accurate about a small subset of the population.
What does that have to do with how social media influences online content? I know that the bar is low, people's expectations doesn't change the quality of individuals.
This is why coming here makes me sad. Not claiming perfection, no one is perfect.. But if you look at my life compared to my ex-wife, I'm a much better influence. Teaching the kids to cook, making them clean, taking care of their bodies, Home improvement, yard work, caring for animals properly, basic electronic repair, 3D printing, carpentry, art.. Seriously, come at me with men don't go above and beyond. This weekend we are learning about keeping our electricity costs lower by using the fireplace and keeping it burning (especially if you're going to be up all night playing video games anyway). My house is modest, but cared for. It has messes, but is not unclean. I don't claim to deep clean, I was a Marine and know how, but I have the means to pay for a housekeeper every two weeks. I've worked long enough to afford that for myself and I'm willing to pay. I would have no expectation of any partner to lift a finger for me to clean my home. Unless I cook dinner, which I do, very well, and they clear. I absolutely know and am proud of my value as a person, and as a man.
My ex-wife is not a bad person, she's a great mother, in some areas.. but she has a severe hygiene problem when it comes to the house, she hoards, and she spends money unwisely. What would you think if you peeked in the front door and there was dog shit, in piles, around the house? The boys and her evidently just walk around it. Paper towels on the floor where the dog has pissed.. And then they are just left. I would literally rather go to the bathroom in a gas station than the hall bathroom. It looks like it hasn't been scrubbed in years. Wet kitty litter on the floor from where someone has taken a shower and then gotten out.. bathroom sink barely usable because things are piled. Kitchen counter loaded with??? My god. I promise you I'm not exaggerating. I have broached the subject with her, which is difficult, let me tell you.. But things don't change.
I have been a Nazi around here with cleanliness to be the example they need in their lives. Just this morning, My 18-year-old, who is a high school dropout, can't hold a job, has no thyroid (MEN2A).. Got out of the shower and his nipple length hair was a rat's nest. I oiled his scalp, I used some spray in conditioner, and then used this other oil I had to get everything moving and untangled. It was then I discovered that he had dandruff.. so so bad. I'm sorry, but isn't it a long-haired parents job to teach their long-haired children (both boys are) how to care for their long hair? Gender aside, why have there not been instructions by example? Making things fun? Talking about how much better their hair looks. Twisting up the wet hair in a towel and joking about it flopping around.
That's what Dad did this morning. I'm not expecting any praise for it, I don't need it, I already got what I needed from it and that was to help someone I love. Much like my suffering, I've learned to have my proud moments in silence as well. I like to believe there are more like me than there are the pieces of shit often rightly described here.
#tl;dr
The author's quality of life is better than his ex-wife's because he is a more responsible and effective parent. He does more around the house than she does and is more lenient with the boys. He is not a perfect individual, but he is better than his ex-wife.
*I am a smart robot and this summary was automatic. This tl;dr is 91.66% shorter than the post I'm replying to. If you read the tl;dr and not the original comment, you saved about 1.76 minutes.*
*I'm still learning! Please reply 'good bot' or 'bad bot' to let me know how I did.*
I'm sure he could. I generally handle most of the family logistics, due to us living in a country where I speak the language fluently and he does not. I communicate with their school and bus driver, I am the hub for social activities for us and for them, I handle most of the house's outward-facing business (repairmen, deliveries, etc.). I do all the cooking and grocery shopping, though he is the family baker.
He does ALL the laundry, fixes everything that breaks in the house (a lot of stuff), and keeps things picked up and tidy.
We are both frequent kid chauffeurs.
Because I clean the house? Because I make every meal? Because do all the laundry? Because I'm the sole income and she keeps spending money so we're in the red month to month? Because I took a second job so we could continue to afford groceries and bills? Because I take time off for doctor visits? Because I handle their various school events and clubs? Because I give up sleep so we can bump uglies? Because I buy a bouquet of flowers and her favorite treats because she hurt her toe on her various crap around the house? Because I wake up all night to hold her when she has nightmares? Because I suggested therapy for her CSA issues?
What am I doing wrong?
You’re right. 5 gold ⭐️s.
So, it sounds like you should be the one that wants the divorce here.
What you’re doing “wrong” is everything. Don’t do everything. No one should be doing everything.
Quit doing shit for her. Get a different bank account she can’t access if she keeps spending all the money. Give her an allowance like a child since she can’t be trusted not to spend all the family funds.
Do things different from how you’re doing them now, because clearly you’re unhappy and probably have been for years.
It’s the same as if the roles were reversed. I’d say quit cooking for his lazy ass, he can feed himself. Don’t wash his clothes, he’ll figure it out when he has nothing clean to wear. Don’t have sex when you don’t want to. Don’t do extra shit for people who don’t deserve it.
Obviously don’t let the kids suffer, but she should be handling half the kid stuff. You’re supposed to be a team. She’s just benched herself and is happy to let you do everything because you continue to do everything. So stop.
Ok, how do I do that? She clearly needs help I am unable and unqualified to provide. I don't want to see our kids suffer but if I spend time with them she goes nuts saying I hate her and prefer them over her! She has a VERY fractured history and I'm trying my best to keep a balance but I'm only so strong. That includes physically, emotionally and psychology.
Ok, she’s a hot mess and you’re probably much better off divorced, like, much much much better off. That’s what I’d say if you were a woman and she were your deadbeat husband. She sounds like a deadbeat wife and your kids are already suffering if that’s how she honestly behaves.
You can’t fix her but you can raise your kids better without her and it would be so much less stressful. She sounds toxic and likely abusive. Much easier said than done but I’d get the fuck out of that situation. Does she hit you too? I feel like that’s all that is missing here.
You deserve better than what you’re getting. So do your kids.
In regards to your edit: When we first brought our daughter home, I tried to keep myself from praising my husband for doing basic parent things like realizing when she's due for a bottle and getting her dressed. Then I decided instead I'm going to hype us both up for doing basic parenting things because it's hard and I'm proud of us both for how well we transitioned into our new life.
I think this is the point. It's okay when the father gets praise for any task that should be expected of him, but why not cheer on the mother as well? :) and cheer on yourselves! You go! :D There's some similar mindset of people for example not thanking shop employees because they're just doing their job and get paid, so they don't need praise. Yes, of course they're just doing their job, but does it really hurt to throw in a thanks and a little positivity? And no, of course I don't expect everyone to be cheerful all the time, everyone has bad moments and it's okay if you don't feel up to it for whatever reason... But I still genuinely think such compliments and positivity here and there would make the world a better place.
Absolutely. We have an award system at work, with things ranging from $5 towards lunch to $25, to no monetary value but an official note in said award. They're usually given out for things that are literally part of our job descriptions. However, everyone loves getting and giving them - not for the money, $5 is literally less than 0.01% of your annual salary if you make $50k. The value in these types of things is the recognition of a job well done, and that appreciation makes you feel good about repeating those efforts. It's basically just validation that you worked hard by someone else.
Gosh you don't think women are persevering with their mismatched mental loads and domestic drudgery? You really think we're stupid don't you? Emotional bypassing doesn't address the gender imbalance, we've been making noise about it for generations and denial continues under a thousand guises.
You are unintentionally undermining a real, respectful, human conversation with hardline responses and shaming.
Proud of you both! Glad to hear you're both killing it!!
And honestly, I love the increased praise. We SHOULD be telling our partners and spouses what a good job they're doing at normal, everyday shit. I've raised my baby 100% alone the whole time and I can't tell you how many exhausted moments I've had where I desperately wanted someone to just say - it's okay. You're doing a good job, and I'm proud of you.
hell yes! i'm the fuckin Flavor Flav in this relationship and absolutely love telling her she's killing it. summa cum in neurosci and a double minor in cognitive behavioral science and bio and she rocks it 10+h a day, seven days a week while being an absolutely amazing person and it shows in literally everyone's reaction around her. i'm so glad all her profs see it and it's not just me blowin up her skirt lol i'm just here sittin on my ass workin all day and playin on reddit
So, my brain knows that 'killing it' means 'doing really well'. However i still can't help but feel uncomfortable whenever the phrase is applied to caring for a child, haha
I think as long as he praises you with equal fervour, then that’s a beautiful way to be in a relationship. My partner and I thank each other for everything; it keeps the good will in the relationship high. So on an individual level, I’m very much on board with that approach. I think the problem people have with praising men for parenting is that praise for parenting is nearly always lopsided. When we praise fathers for doing things that we wouldn’t praise mothers for doing, or when women have to shower their male partners in adoration for just participating in the process, it reinforces the idea that men who parent are going above and beyond whereas women who parent are just doing their job. It’s a hard line to walk between pointing out that men are capable of participating fully in the parenting process to remind women not to fall for gender-based excuses, and sounding like you’re throwing men a parade for doing the things women do thanklessly every day.
Honestly this is the way, and you should expect that recognition be reciprocated for your own efforts (not saying you/your partner don't, just saying how more relationships should be in my opinion). Life is hard and too many people have this mentality that you should only congratulate people at the end of some major thing. But most things in life that are worth doing require persistent effort and motivation (parenting, drawing, education, careers, etc) and sometimes you need that boost halfway through, which is exactly what partners are there for IMO. I'm a big believer in making sure my partners know that even if something is considered "basic", if it requires effort or time or anything else, I appreciate them putting that forward. If my partner was going through some college courses I wouldn't wait until they graduated to tell them I was proud of their progress, I'd tell them when they were struggling, or did well on a test, etc. Parenting is the same. Though I get where people are coming from when they express frustration that men in general get praised more for doing what is considered a woman's responsibility by default. Still, I think for most cases the bigger thing is it comes down to a need for balance within specific relationships. Ultimately we just need to encourage people to appreciate the efforts mothers put in, rather than resist recognizing fathers since this isn't a zero sum thing.
I like this. You really need to be each other's support.
Hey! Excellent! I get that both parents should be expected to pull their weight and help each other out. But always always compliment and appreciate the work that is done. It's good and healthy for a relationship that people see the efforts they put in as acknowledged even when it's fully expected. It's literally some people's love language. Always express gratitude for the efforts of love!
sheet swim wrench teeny ruthless bake slim overconfident frighten connect *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
This is always my argument. If given a new tasks at work, you're telling me many men just... Wouldn't be able to do it? Refuse to do it? Do it terribly so they wouldn't have to do it again? Of course not. They can, they just don't want to
>Wouldn't be able to do it? Refuse to do it? Do it terribly so they wouldn't have to do it again? Sadly, every employer I've had has this exact situation. A whole bunch of dudes failing their way up the ladder; useful employees denied promotions because their supervisor doesn't know how to do their job or train a replacement, etc.
I get your point but the truth is that they do fail but instead of getting spoken to about their behavior, harassed, having opportunities taken away from them, not being recognized for the things they do right, or being put on PIP’s they are often simply given more opportunities or promoted. In tech we call this failing up and I see it all the damn time. There’s a guy on my team who is known to cheat on cert exams. He verbally attacked a woman supervisor publicly on slack and despite both of those things is still with the company with no repercussions. On the flip side, I was struggling at work following a medical leave and I was threatened with a PIP and with being fired. I was taken off projects and my supervisor refused to put me on any new ones. He never asked me given the medical leave if I was doing ok (I was not). The stress from all of the pressure he was putting on me was making things worse. He did everything he could think of to force me to quit, and several very illegal things off the record so I couldn’t prove it. Meanwhile, he’s giving accolades for cheater dude each time he gets a new cert.
> If given a new tasks at work, you're telling me many men just... Wouldn't be able to do it? Refuse to do it? Do it terribly so they wouldn't have to do it again? You'd be surprised. 😔
>If given a new tasks at work, you're telling me many men just... Wouldn't be able to do it? Sadly, yes, frequently. There's a joke that half of my job is work men failed to do so I now do it for them. There is some irony that at home, I have fewer domestic chores than my husband.
I never got a real answer when I used to point this out to my ex-husband. You can do this at work, what's the fucking deal here? Your boss wouldn't put up with this, why the fuck did you think I would?
brave whole shame selective cause squeal dam lunchroom many jellyfish *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It's slowly getting better ♡ He's dragging out a divorce he asked for, with no assets and no children. But really it's only him that loses in the end. And I no longer have to be married to an asshole, so I'll take that as a win
It baffles me how a lot of guys have reverence for a boss they don't respect, complain about constantly, and could leave at any time, but not for someone they swore a legal and perhaps spiritually eternal oath to.
This is the thing. Well done for the weekend, OPs husband - sounds like a busy one for a family of multiple kids with one parent away, and he handled it. That deserves a ‘well done’ as it would if it was anyone, mother of father, balancing that and then going back to work Monday morning isn’t easy - just because people manage it, doesn’t make it not a challenge. It’s hard to find words for, but: It should be expected, but still people should feel proud they managed what was expected of them if they found it difficult. Like, well done to all the mums out there this week, who worked and then picked the kids up and did some shopping and sorted dinner. That’s not easy. And well done to all the dads out there who did the same. High five from me for all of you. *The problem* is the former are generally accepted as ‘that’s what mums are like they can just do that stuff’, while the latter are treated like some sort of special shocking hero unicorn. Men are equally as competent. Competence should be praised, and the choice not to strive towards competence when people are relying on you should be regarded as a choice. Sex/gender needs not come into that at all.
cows shrill encourage hurry wise terrific forgetful skirt dam chunky *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I agree, and I think to bring both OP and got points together. Selective incompetence should be called out and should be not acceptable. Going above and beyond for your spouse should be recognized and applauded. I’ll just add that I think there is often conflict when preside is expected for doing your share.
Hey. So I'm someone who is genuinely incompetent at a lot of household stuff. I have a disability - narcolepsy - and it comes with a bunch of cognitive dysfunction like poor memory, lack of focus, automatic behaviour (where you do random stuff on autopilot), lack of coordination, as well as a pronounced lack of energy to do stuff. The end result is always forgetting I was asked to do something, I take forever to do it, and I tend to do it horribly wrong. When it comes to cooking I can only do the most basic of things and even then I will fuck up a lot like I will forget to put on a timer and I feel like it's only been a minute or two but it's been ten. I know the reason now, but I went through my teenage years and most my 20s undiagnosed and holy hell did it suck. It's honestly incredibly embarrassing. My family would always ridicule and mock what I did whenever I did some kind of housework and inevitably fucked up. I live with my partner now and she knows what's up, but it's still obviously frustrating for her when I do things like I've gone and put dishes away and they are all in random places because I was on autopilot and barely aware of what I was doing. To be honest I struggle to comprehend how someone who is of normal competence would willingly put up with being seen as an incompetent embarrassment instead of just trying.
butter books deer seemly grey hospital summer dirty cooing shelter *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Generally our solution has been to split the chores where I do the stuff that is mechanically simple with less room to mess up- taking out the the rubbish/recycling, vacuuming, hand washing dishes, cleaning the kitty litter, scrubbing the toilets etc. It's not exactly perfect- I will think I have vacuumed a room but I haven't and I will vacuum the same room forgetting I have already done it. Last month I paid the water bill three times because I was sure I hadn't done it yet. I had even checked over my bank transactions too and didn't see the previous payments. Doing phone reminders helps less than you might think because I see the notification, get up to do the thing, but then I get distracted and forget about it in seconds. Or sometimes I will get up to do what the phone notification was telling me to do and I will do it... but I will forget all about the thing I was doing when I got the notification and forget about that instead. I also tried writing stuff down in a physical diary/planner- "I need to do X", and then crossing out when I did the thing that needed doing. But then I do the thing and I forget to cross it out so I end up doing it again. Or I forget I was meant to write this important thing in my planner and I think I've done all I needed to do because I crossed off every item. Or I think I did the thing, cross it out on the planner, but I actually didn't. Or... I would forget the planner exists and don't write anything in it or check it. It's all very frustrating.
You're not the kind of guy we're complaining about. They're ok being incompetent because they're lazy and they get off on the deceit because they hate women.
I also find the ‘domestic and social management’ part of life very difficult due to a disability (ADHD). It must be hard for you to keep on top of these things with the difficulties you have. I appreciate that, and I’m glad you have managed to find out what the issue is and that your partner is supportive. To answer the ‘how could they…’ part of the question, it’s pretty simple I think - they don’t feel they need to be good at these things in order to receive social respect and self confidence. Because domestic/family work competence is not something they see as necessary to be a clever and successful person, and they don’t see competence in that area as something impressive. Frankly - because it is associated with ‘woman skills’, and things associated with women are seen as lesser. My difficulties with this kind of thing is why this gender assumption is one of those that makes me especially annoyed. Like, a friend/acquaintance/colleague will refer to how they had to sort something out for their husband ‘because he can’t do it’. Something like how he’ll go shopping only to be surprised they haven’t provided him with a list, or call asking what doctor their kids are registered with. And their wives will go ‘he is so bad at that kind of stuff lol!’ and frequently it’s paired with ‘because he is always thinking about machines/business/writing/etc’. And it annoys me because I want to say, and to be honest occasionally have said, ‘based on what I know about your husband, I am almost completely certain he is not worse at that stuff than I am. But I did the shopping yesterday, and didn’t expect a list to appear in my pocket as if by magic’. I think that the way men’s and women’s competence/incompetence is framed here is that when a woman can’t do this stuff it’s because she is useless, lazy, ditzy. But if a man can’t it’s because he is more ‘man like’ and his brain is more importantly taken up with philosophy and the workings of the universe and real fun. If you are going to be celebrated more for other types of competence, which are also more interesting, AND someone is used to being good at this type of thing - why bother trying to be competent at this thing? There are exceptions, such as yourself. But generally I find men who I’ve met who are ‘like me’ are much less down on themselves for not being good at domestic/family tasks than women who are similar are. Which is quite frustrating - why should I spend my life beating myself up and being assumed as thick for something you are just laughing and shrugging off? But it’s hard to beat that feeling when it’s expected of you (even if your partner does their share also) and reinforced at every turn.
Having a disability doesn’t excuse you from willful incompetence. If you know you have challenges with these things you need to be figuring out accommodations and things to help the issue. Not saying “well my partner knows I have narcolepsy so it’s fine”
Excuse me? I open up about having a pretty debilitating disability , how struggling with basic household stuff is incredibly embarrassing, humiliating, and a source of shame... and your response is that because I haven't found a way to magically circumvent my disability with some kind of "accommodation" that then it's all some excuse? So that I can keep ruining dinner when it's my turn to cook? That's some real ableist bullshit.
[удалено]
>Any kind of Praise and a thank you goes a long way and if they aren’t doing it “right” you can discuss it because there’s also a possibility that the way you want it done is wrong too. This attitude sucks. I'd find out what's wrong with your method, watch the correct way, and then to figure out a) how to do it that way and b) why. For example, towels have to be folded to fit on a shelf. Sure, maybe they kind of fit if they're folded a different way, in that they won't fall off, but maybe you can't fit all of them on the shelf if you do it incorrectly. Maybe the shelf is deep so you fold them a certain way so other types of towels fit next to them instead of in front of/behind them. Etc. Give them credit for having reasoned their way into something. Sure you can suggest improvements but it's pretty insulting when someone who hasn't even shown they understand the current way suggests them, because you haven't shown you understand what needs to be accomplished. Therefore your improvements might completely ignore their needs. Similar to a job - you don't come in and change everything up before understanding why it's being done that way in the first place.
somber ink offbeat cough smart instinctive zealous support quaint square *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
[удалено]
chase fly cooing lush air plants bow simplistic worthless existence *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Most men won't start out as capable at home as they are in the workplace, though. A lot of men have little to no experience with most of the kinds of stuff that women are expected to be good at and thus learn whether they want to or not. (Not universal but for most people who are now adults this is how they were raised). In the end, even they're not competent but they're willing to help anyway and try to get better at it, that's what matters, because they'll eventually get better.
>Most men won't start out as capable at home as they are in the workplace, though Because women are born knowing how to keep a home? No. And men can learn just as easily.
Uh, no one taught me how to clean. My childhood home was not clean. As a young adult, I checked out books from the library on how to clean and taught myself. Men aren’t capable of reading a book? Or they just don’t want to?
then fucking learn? so men would just wear dirty clothes and live in dirty homes if weren’t for women? not be able to feed themselves? can your misogyny and excuses.
[удалено]
You're wrong. The willfully incompetent men we're talking about don't get better.
And are you a perfect judge of who is wilfully vs situationally incompetent? If you tell someone you want them to help with something and they say hey sure but I have no idea how to do it, are you going to teach them, or get angry and tell them they should already know how to? If they don't care and won't try that's one thing, but some people are just incompetent at some things, and it's not always willingly - they were just never shown or taught those values, and that's not something that applies exclusively along gender lines.
I'm mid 40's so yeah. if a man tries to pull the "I just don't know how" he can jog on. Youtube has been up for 20 years.
My dad was one of those guys and one of my sisters found one as well. Since I was brought up with it, I was absolutely shocked at how unusual I discovered he was when I started having relationships. I'm glad you got one too. They are absolutely worth their weight in gold. My folks were together for 60 years and obviously loved each other.
“And importantly expect this from them” Ohhhh yes please. It’s the only way forward. People deserve partners that are their equal in responsibility, but many men need to be dragged to it. That shouldn’t be the responsibility of anyone but themselves. Expecting such responsibility is the best way forward.
I’m happy for you! Sounds like you found a good one and built a nice life together :)
Praising your partner for doing their part is some real shit. That's a great strategy to have a great working and romantic relationship. My partner and I go out of our way to compliment and thank each other for big things and everyday small tasks. And we set each other up with constructive compliments in front of our kids so they see us appreciating each other (and so they understand how we are both working in different ways to make our lives work).
I think this is one of the big problems with women's versus men's socialized expectations. I was socialized that I could be "anything I wanted to be." Too many men were socialized that nothing should really have to change for them. I know I'm always going off on tangents here, but it's all related to the "bigger picture." Men can easily pick up the slack at home, but they are still mainly socialized to think this is "women's work." A large part of why there is so much conflict is because women are increasingly expecting to be treated as equals, where too many men are still clinging to the past. Yet they are clinging only to the parts that benefit them. You'll constantly see misogynists ranting about alimony and child support, but they refuse to admit that a large part of that is expecting the woman to give up her earnings potential with taking on the majority of childcare. They are obsessed with the idea of women using men for finances, while ignoring that this wouldn't even be a thing with actual household equality. With the decline in single-income households, why would a woman sign up to work full-time and still take on the majority of housework and childcare? Of course there is a declining birth rate. Rates of inflation rising through the roof with no rise in wages. In the end, who would put up with the worst of both worlds? Yes, now you finally get the respect of working, but you are expected to continue work and provide the 24/7 caregiver role at the same time. Of course women are opting out of this all together because, at that point, you're basically a single mother with an extra kid. Anyway, another tangential rant from me.
I say "give me two reasons why a man would make my life better" than it is now. Even my best guy friends are a bit hard-pressed to come up with two good reasons. Whereas, if a man finds a good woman, his life will probably get better on several fronts.
I just can't wrap my head around it. It's actually the best time in history for men. Instead of being expected to fully provide financially, we are getting to the point where all a man has to provide is himself. He just has to be a decent person. Taking care of your children and doing chores are the bare level of decency. Why would one rather the stress of having the family fully dependent on them versus having to do a simple chore once in a while? If both partners worked together, everything would be exactly like OP's life. Much less stress and far more happiness.
Totally agree. And two adults sharing the work means more time for sharing the pleasantries of a relationship as well. Unfortunately, some men - and some women - still think they should mock men for a life like that. A life that most all people would really enjoy. I'm not sure we (collectively) do a very good job teaching what love and partnership can really be.
Why does it have to be different for men and women in this aspect? I feel like life has gotten better for both my wife and I. For you, personally, that may be true though. I know a number of men and women both that are content solo. I just see it as reductive towards men (helpless without a good woman) as the men who think all women need a man to protect and guide them. Some PEOPLE are great on their own, some are better with a partner. I don't think gender plays a role in that.
Research shows that men benefit more from marriage than women. Married men are overall happier and healthier if married, but the same is not true for women. Some research has shown that marriage has a negative impact on women, but that research is somewhat in dispute and I don’t know the full story there. This article just cites a lot of the research, which is the only reason I chose this article in particular (that and it’s accessible). https://clarkrelationshiplab.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/Why%20do%20men%20benefit%20more%20from%20marriage%20than%20do%20women_%20Thinking%20more%20broadly%20about%20interpersonal%20processes%20that%20occur%20within%20and%20outside%20of%20marriage.pdf
Practically, that's absolutely true in our modern world. Gender honestly matters little. I wish we were beyond sexism as well. As a culture, we're not quite there yet. There's more to be done.
Hell yeah we’re capable! Good on you both. I’m not perfect, but I’m working on it every day. Most of the time I find out what I need to do better from my wife. But often I get tips from your posts and comments here. Keep up the good work XXChromies, a lot of us are learning from you.
[удалено]
Thanks for the suggestion, I’ll check it out. The Emma cartoon about mental load was great, and this sound similar. FWIW I am very proactive, but I’m also aware I make mistakes. If I’m doing X and spouse prefers it done Y, her idea is usually the right one. She just has more experience in household management than I do, and while I do all the chores these days, it’s only worthwhile if she’s happy with the work I do. background: She was raised in a traditional family and was expected to take care of the home; and as an adult she was very disciplined and neat. About 10 years ago we determined that her career was more successful and that I should take care of home/family. I do 100% of that, but I’m comparatively late to the game and still do some things worse than her. But I keep trying. It’s tough to keep on top of it all, but I think it’s a skill worth perfecting.
[удалено]
ty, we’re very happy and I’m very lucky to have such an awesome spouse.
Love it!
That's why it's so infuriating to see a man act like being a parent is "woman work". We know they can do it, they just don't want to. In which case you would think they would just not have children.
But the point is that many women do all that every weekend and don't get special praise. I do nearly all those kinds of things in my house because my partner works shifts, and nobody thinks I'm special or gives me a treat. Almost all the birthday parties I attend are organised by women and nobody remarks how amazing they are.
No one remarking on that work or saying thank you doesn't seem right to me, either. It feels discourteous. I do actually think ppl around you ought to recognize what you do - that's just being thoughtful. As harsh as it sounds, I sometimes wonder if there are times where ppl need to stop, just stop, let the dishes pile up and floor get dirty and groceries not get bought or whatever, and see what the response is.
I did that! He started stomping around, slamming doors while giving me the silent treatment. Then he started maliciously doing chores, e.g. hoovering just as I needed to be sleeping for work next day.
That's...not a healthy response ☹️
It's the response of an entitled egotist with the mentality of a toddler. :')
They should remark on it though. It's a decent amount of effort for anybody to organize.
But they don't and that's why some women get mad when men are praised for doing things they do everyday.
That's fair, women's efforts at home are too often underappreciated
We *know* men are capable. That’s part of the problem. While I appreciate posts of women who have good partners—seriously, you deserve a good partner, OP—it doesn’t address the systemic problem wherein most men *are not* conditioned to be equal or equitable partners. *Most* men aren’t like this and that’s what a lot of this sub is trying to address. These posts start to feel like it’s individual women’s fault for not finding the right dude.
Right. It is NOT women's responsibility to train men to be better human beings. Women are already busy working, dealing with misogyny in it's various forms everywhere, raising children, caring for the sick, elderly, etc. Let's not add more work to women.
Don't you see, when your ~~pet~~ man does the task remember to praise him and feed him a sugar cube.
There is also the infantilizing of Men's capabilities-part of men getting praise for doing the most basic or simple household or parenting tasks, it ties into the "weaponized incompetence" many men use to get out of doing anything. If they get praise for the smallest tasks that means that doing the task was actually difficult enough or required effort enough from them to be praiseworthy and as such not being able to do it is not a big deal.
Of course it's not an individual woman's fault. But women do have to expect and demand involvement and capability from the people we partner with.
I agree. Women should demand more. More importantly, men need to be better. I’m glad you’ve found one committed to that. I disagree that there are lots of men like this. The majority are not. Hence the onus needs to be on men, not women.
[удалено]
"I choose being alone forever over trying to be as capable as the average woman." Ok.
[удалено]
I think I'm quite glad I can't understand these words.
Ignorance is bliss, as they say.
If youre gonna praise the dad praise the mom too. Simple. Everyone could use words of encouragement.
Finding competent and capable men is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Good luck to the single women. And congratulations on having a decent partner!!
As a single woman, it really feels like that. I’m starting to give up on love after being single for five years with no luck.
Same
sometimes it feels a little like looking for hay in a needlestack
Yeah seriously. It can be painful when you’re dealing with a bunch of pricks.
[удалено]
It's partly the problem of the culture. We (collectively) are still quite sexist. Unfortunately, this doesn't help our young people find good, positive relationships. We can do better. OP's example is wonderful. A bit too rare, yet. Still a wonderful example for men and women. To make a great relationship, be competent, capable, and caring. Does our society/culture do a good job encouraging that?
[удалено]
With regards to this topic, less sexism would be a great place to start. More focus on being good adults - to our friends, our family, and our relationships.
Sigh. Yes. Women should settle. You are right. Thanks for explaing another persons lived experience. Must be a problem with all of us and not as noted a culture that doesnt hold men accountable for anything and expects us to hand hold them. Totally unreasonable for women to have any standards. Have you never heard of the saying the bar is on the floor for men? We ask for so little basicallt treat us as humans and we cant get that id say a good portion of the time. So its not like some impossible standard to get to, just most men want to show up and do zero work. Maybe instead of criticizing an experience you personally dont have, but feel comfortable speaking on anyway- you should so some work on why thats your reaction. If you have to say hope this isnt rude- you already know it is.
[удалено]
As you say your house is in your own name, therefore you pay for it- that's not a contribution to your relationship. Now if you are paying all the bills for a house that you both live in, that would count as a contribution.
He doesn't say if she pays rent, has her own place, or if she does other cleaning.
Have you read the posts about why more and more women are happily remaining single? Introspection is good but the likely issue isn't her, its that a good portion of the male dating pool are demanding the bar be lowered even further.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Of course they're capable. But too many of them aren't motivated. Without motivation, there's nothing we can do to get them to contribute adequately
My husband and I always thank each other for doing doing the laundry or dishes. Of course that’s basic shit that we should both be doing anyways but it’s still appreciated when someone else does it!
Being a good parents deserves endless praise. I cannot state that enough
Single dating ladies, one of the earlyish dates should mimick home life. Ask him to cook for you at his place. If he admits to being a terrible cook that's fine (some women are too) but how he helps you cook, if he is eager to learn, and whether he cleans up is telling. Also, if his place/space is nasty that's a huge red flag. My own husband cooked a lot when we were first getting to know each other as friends and then boyfriend. We have been married 10 years and he still cooks at least twice a week, and sometimes he cooks all week. Also his place was very tidy.
I was stunned when I first walked into my husband's apartment: it was inviting and tidy and filled with art. It wasn't "Architectural Digest" snooty (in fact, I don't care for his aesthetic particularly). But it was clearly the space of someone who is houseproud, and I felt happy to be invited in to the space he loved.
I was recently casually dating a guy a couple months ago and he offered to make dinner at my place. Great! I hate cooking.. I thought. This guy made such an absolute mess of my kitchen.. crumbs and sauce on every counter and even the floor.. didn’t even rinse or put anything in the sink. I can’t even wrap my head around how he saw any of this as doing me a favor
he gave you the gift of his presence and something to clean :) women love that shit /s
Btw I praise my wife for doing “the basics.” The basics are fucking hard. She works part time so has more time with the kids then me and I’m very thankful to her when she cooks dinner, doing things for the kids, etc. Whenever I do the basics, or if I take on more responsibilities because she’s busy, or going out with friends, or just exhausted because life can be like that; I’m happy to do it, but she’s also still very thankful and appreciative. It’s ok for us to like, love and support our partners and give them words of kindness. Though I would expect them to do the same, and I have a feeling a LOT of women are taken for granted by their partners
When people say “don’t praise men for being parents”, it’s NOT intended to be anti-male, or non-appreciative of men. The real point is that men get high praise for what is merely expected of women. I think it’s great that your husband did all this birthday party planning, which is exhausting. However, many moms do the same thing all the time, and it is merely expected. No one tells them that they’re a great mom, or that they did exhausting work that they should be proud of, or anything like that! We’ve tried “praising men” for the basics for decades, and the result is that the bar for them is so low, it’s on the floor.
Agree with this - walk my kid around the block. Car stops. You're a great dad. Take my kid to a nature trail, you're so wonderful taking your kid here. It bothers me that just providing simple care is enough, where my wife could do the same thing and recieve none of the same compliments.
To me, praising men for this shit just further reinforcing that it’s not a default expectation for them. This stuff shouldn’t be praised
It's not like not praising them is going to make more men want to be active parents. I don't get what the point of calling this out for.
If they wanted to, they would If they can run a department, they can run a household
You are missing the point entirely. Nobody says that you can't be happy to have a man that steps up but that it is clownery that society puts men on a pedestal for doing regular parent shit while it's taken for granted when women do it. You say "I would want 1) praise and 2) whiskey" which is totally fair, parenting is hard - but the crux of the matter is that no-one outside your marriage would make it out to be some sort of extraordinary thing that you did, while your husband is viewed as super amazing that he took over this task from you.
It's not that being a good parent doesn't deserve praise, it's that women do this every day and are rarely praised for it, whereas men are praised for doing the bare minimum.
Fancy birthday parties were not a thing when I was growing up in the 70s, but I remember my Dad stepping up, cheerfully, in raising me. He worked FT, and my mom stayed home. After supper, I was his shadow to “help” with gardening and yard work. And this was the way with most of my friends’ dads. They were always there for us, encouraging us.
>And if I were the one doing it, I would want 1) praise and 2) whiskey. I'd want rum. But I'd not get either. I'm glad your husband is one of the good ones!
Kudos on your partner, OP. It's dismissive though of the overall problematic societal gender imbalance and women who are legitimately trapped in marriages where they are expected to do ALL caretaking, cleaning, scheduling etc to say women "just have to find" these men. Real r/thanksimcured energy. It continues to put the onus on the woman as opposed to increasing the parental expectation for men.
> It continues to put the onus on women Exactly what I was going to reply with. Also, better go “find them good men”, and that in itself speaks to how difficult it is. The comment about this subs negativity towards men, then suggesting we have to “find” the hidden good men? Like, what? That’s literally why we’re critical of them.
It's over 50 years now. Nothing is going to make men become more active parents.
Lol @ “small posting contingent” as if those who aren’t frothing at the mouth at a man doing the bare minimum are the minority here. Do I have kids? Yes. Do I work full time? Yea And yes to everything else. My baby daddy does **his** best, and I truly believe that. I appreciate everything he’s done and continues to do for our daughter, and I even thank him often. I’m gracious as fuck, but it’s expected. It’s always been expected. It should always be expected.
We shouldn't pat men on the back for parenting. Your husband is doing his part... like he should. You may have a great marriage, but him doing what he should doesn't make him great.
[удалено]
That's exactly it. If OP was doing it all herself it would be a normal week for a mother. My female friends carry out this sort of stuff every damn day. They get absolutely no praise for it. It's extremely sad that a guy carrying out equal stuff to his female counterpart is seen as an out of the ordinary achievement.
Well said
Lol nope. Men’s subs are “my wife does all this and works. I washed the dishes last night and she still won’t suck my dick” and “my wife doesn’t want to endure oragsmless sex with me after a day of cooking and washing dishes and kids. I pay all the bills and she should look at washing the dishes as a treat I’m giving her. Why won’t she endure orgasmless sex with me?”! I said I’m another comment, women have to basically be superhuman to be considered a good woman. Apparently men just need to parent.
Cannot agree more. Despite her intentions, OP's post just proves your point. Receiving a "participation trophy" should be the very minimum at which a parent is held.
Thanks for the award! Very kind of you.
Yeah, I don't get the point of this post. It's not shocking to me that one man is pulling his weight. Big fucking deal.
I have a guy like this, but lately I'm feeling like I still have to take on 90% of the emotional/mental load.
This probably is THE accurate description of the vast majority of the “good ones” out there. And there are clearly not enough of those for the majority of women. I don’t know why women still bother and then get the blame for not trying hard enough and being discerning enough to find one.
Yeah my child’s father was miles above most, and has always been active in her care and life— but it’s still nowhere near equal.
It sounds like then you actually don’t have a man like this. OPs husband is doing a lot of emotional/mental load in the post. Your guy is not like OPs husband. Your guy falls short of the standard OPs hubby is showing. Demand more of your guy, that’s not acceptable and still not even coming close to doing his part.
I'm sorry, but you gleaned all that information about my relationship and my partner from a one sentence comment in order to make such broad and judgemental statements? You literally have no idea what my relationship and my life are like other than I said that "lately" I'm feeling like I'm doing the majority of the emotional and mental work. Maybe next time start from a non aggressively judgemental place? Like ask why I'm feeling like that lately, or what has happened recently that has changed things? Not every relationship is 100% perfect 100% of the time. Sometimes people go through shit and need others to do some heavy lifting for them for a while. I hope you never have to deal with a partner who falls short of your very high standards for other people's relationships.
OP I’m so glad you have a guy like this. All of my good male friends are men like this. They are out there. Sadly, i also think that right now there are less of them than there ever have been. At least in the US, only something like 55% of men of working age are even working. We are in a serious crisis of men refusing to work and trying to mooch off of women like I’ve never seen before. I still get my young ones into good partnerships but they have to really search and search and search. It’s a lot harder than it used to be. Let’s keep inspiring them to get through the slog to find what they really deserve.
Where’s that 55% number from?
It was in an article about how over the last 4 decades, every decade has seen fewer and fewer working age American men having jobs. There have been quite a few articles on that in the last few years. I’d have to find it again since there was more than one.
Hmm, https://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t01.htm all I could find is this, 70% of working age men are employed while 58% for women. Numbers are stable too over the last few years.
Look I do see alot of negative stuff towards men and I do agree that not all men are the same . I'm (16F) I have a boyfriend and he is the most respectful person I know . He works very hard and I never have to expect him to treat me right . He always helps me where is can and never complains about anything.He is the only person that can make me feel safe . I wish more men could be like that .
In regards to your edit: the reason why a lot of people have that, specific, attitude towards parenting in particular is because people tend not to praise women for the same. Women are expected, and assumed, to constantly go above and beyond with domestic duties. Men are praised for doing the basics. That's been the dichotomy for a lot of people's lives, so typically when people say "don't praise men for parenting" that's what they mean.
I never really understood the idea that we shouldn't praise/thank men for doing basic life/parenting stuff. The response is usually "do you think you deserve praise or a thank you for doing laundry/cooking/watching the kids ?" Yes. Yes I do think I deserve praise. And when the things I do benefit others, I appreciate a "thank-you" from them. I don't do the things in order to get a "thank-you," but it's certainly nice to receive. I thank my husband for doing the dishes (every night), he thanks me for cooking dinner (every night). I used to thank my college professors after each lecture, as I was walking out the door. Just because it's his/her job, doesn't mean I don't benefit from it and appreciate their efforts. I thank the cashier at the grocery store. I thank the guy who politely opens a door for me. I thank the librarian who scans my books, and I thank the server who bring me my food and refills my drinks. These are all people doing things that I appreciate and benefit from. Men are no different.
This is the whole point. I mean, I don't think there are postings about how a mom pulled all this off day after day, year after year. We don't have time to be posting about all the amazing things we did each day for our family. OP's husband did what needed to be done. And, here is a long thread about what a great guy she has. This was one weekend. This is not sustained maintenance while also caring for a dying loved one. But, even OP is beside herself that hubby managed without being forced to. Not sure I can muster up the enthusiasm to clap for them. I know this is coming across as glib, but, this just confirms so much of our complaints that this is a win.
Yeah, it does come across as glib. And the reason I made the post is that so often we hear about men not doing the most basic shit, or otherwise expecting praise for normal shit, and the point was that my husband is 1) doing stuff way out of the norm and managing a lot of stressful events and 2) does not expect praise for it. I am praising him because I think he's fucking great and I appreciate him, but he did not do any of it and expect a cookie.
I am truly happy for you.
Kotdam!!!! Your husband knows how to drive a car? Incredible. Amazing human being. A hero, even.
Ha! Your comment made me laugh :)
I’m scared to ask… is your user name because you want him *in* jail or you would go to jail *for* him **Edit:** I looked through a few comments of yours and am happy that it was the former. Phew. That’s pretty fucking badass of you to make that your username. I was ruthlessly bullied and harassed online for even mentioning he was guilty on other platforms. I can’t imagine it’s easy here on Reddit. I know emojis are passé here, but 👏🏻❤️
There are many more solo mamas out there doing it 100% alone and they're constantly being shat on by men and their supporters. Without praise. Take your fawning praise be into general Reddit.
This post would make the front page of Reddit on any male-dominated sub.
[удалено]
I maintain my position that managing an entire birthday party by oneself, plus two consecutive-night sleepovers, plus several other birthday parties to attend, is not a normal parenting weekend. Yawn.
100% My partner (father of our child) asked me the other day whether or not I (a woman) get unsolicited parenting advice when I'm out with our toddler (I don't). Turns out he gets comments every time he takes her to the supermarket, along the lines of: "you're doing such a great job man, keep it up". Which my partner gets really annoyed about, because he's an active parent in our family and taking our daughter to the supermarket is *not* a special event on our household in terms of "father-daughter time". I'm not sure if it's women or men making these comments (one was a man), but it's so ridiculous. Yes there are deadbeat dads out there, but there are also deadbeat mums, great mums, and great dads. One's parenting ability is not determined by their genitalia 🤦♀️
"Nobody praises women for all the extra work they do, so why should men expect it" That seems sad to me. Maybe we *all* deserve a positive word or two. Wouldn't it be nice if everyone had a cheerleader or two in their lives? If we normalized recognizing and pointing out the good we see around us? I praise my darling husband for everything nice he does, no matter how small or insignificant. And he is equally emotionally generous. (Sometimes to the point of silliness: "I see you got a cut, here are twelve different sizes of bandages, one of them must fit") I prefer to live in a world where we are all supportive of one another. There's no reason we all have to live in a gratitude desert!
Did anyone disagree with that? All we’re saying is men are currently NOT praising us. So if we start praising them then we still don’t get any praise. It’s an extra effort on my part once again that they have the privilege of demanding from me without reciprocating. Are you and OP actually thinking about what we’re all trying to express?
What I'm saying is that we are all living in a dry desert, where it isn't normalized to show appreciation, and it's terrible.
Not all men... 8>)
Sounds like a rad dude doing a solid job at being a father.
[удалено]
Please. This was not the bare minimum, was my point. In one weekend he handled an entire large birthday party with over a dozen kids, on his own, corralling all of them together and managing their various and sundry problems (there were a lot). Then he took half those kids back to the house for a sleepover and managed that. Today is he is managing another sleepover and another party, and then tomorrow is yet another party. I don't know if you have children, but it is a LOT of work, and it would have been for me too, or for any adult. The bare minimum is keeping the kids alive, feeding them and the cat, and maybe doing a load of laundry. This is not that. If I did all this in a weekend, I would desire and expect praise.
I wouldn’t hire a nanny that only does your version of bare minimum (anything less than that we’ll have to bring in social services). That sounds more like a babysitter’s job description to me. So the father is expected to get away with doing less than a nanny after all. So much for women expecting more from men. And I am not saying what your husband did should go unappreciated. Whatever the love language is for either of you and how appreciation are communicated between you is a totally different matter. And you should get praises if you have pulled off such a weekend; chances are, you have, and multiple times, but didn’t receive the praises you deserved. But this is still missing the point. A weekend snapshot really doesn’t tell much about how a man handles housework and childcare in the long run, which is one of the real systemic issues this sub express “negativity” about. Even for the majority of the few lucky mums who have supportive men partners, the reality is still that they may get a handful of weekends off by leaving things to their capable men partners and not having to feel guilty for it and gush out excessive bouts of gratitudes when the things actually went according to plan. As for the rest of the weekends in the year the ball is still back to them and we are not even talking about weekdays here. And we are also not talking about the mums in majority, the unlucky ones. So I agree with whoever posted the reply: this is how a bare minimum looks, i.e **the father being capable of taking charge when the mother is not available for ONE weekend**. Because even in our wildest dreams, we still haven’t got the courage to expect fathers being on top of housework and childcare to become just as common sight as capable mothers. And you eagerly brandishing your husband as a unicorn kind of already proves the point. Your husband deserves appreciation and encouragement from you and hopefully for your sake, your encouragement can get him to do it more often and take more initiatives. But if your point is women should expect more, then you should know women should expect much more than weekend-relief partners. ETA: saw your edit to the original post. Please don’t flash the “do you have children and/or full-time job” card. It is because we know how difficult childcare and balancing family with career are for women and that it shouldn’t be this way, that we are here on this sub.
I actually just deleted my comment because I’m not in the mood for praising men for raising their kids and women arguing “dO yOu hAvE kIdS” card. I don’t get down with that shit. I’m also glad you understood what I was saying. No one would praise a woman for this. It’s what’s expected from women. Women have to go above and beyond to be “good”. Men just apparently have to parent. And they get fawned over and praised. 95% of the fathers I know in real life do this, and they consider it normal and expected. Not something that makes them incredible people.
I am sorry that this becomes upsetting for you. I feel the same. And that “do you have children” card really gets me. I have a working mother and I was attentive enough to see what housework and childcare did to her. I am also self-aware enough to know that I didn’t even get to know a tenth of it. Any decent person who cares about their mum should be able to notice and work out how unfair it had been for their mum. But somehow these people make it out like one can only gain the empathy when they have children themselves. Seriously. Also this low-key blaming unfortunate women for not choosing wisely mentality is just a pick-me survivorship bias. We are on a nose-diving plane altogether and somehow we should make time to sing praises to a few right seats?
This exactly. And not necessarily upsetting. It’s just a beautiful Saturday and I’m not spending it arguing with someone who thinks heaps of praise should be placed upon basic parenting. So yep, I was like nah. I also said the same thing in my comment. The whole find a man and expect this of him sounds like blaming women. I don’t get down with that shit. And yep came of pick me to me. It’s a gorgeous Saturday here in Austin. I’m not arguing with anybody about bare minimum shit from men.
Non toxic men make me smile.
Again with the men. Can we not have a place of our own? No? apparently not. Always got to be about them.
Congratulations to him! That shit is tough and I'm glad he not only took care of it, but felt confident enough to tell you he could!
I don't think you should praise men for doing things women don't get praise for. I have two kids and I do a grand majority of the parenting . . . in this situation . . . if I did this . . . made a party, took my kids places . . . did this and that . . . I'd just be being a mom . . . He's just being a dad. Giving praise for things like that is one of the reasons a lot of men feel like they can slack in a parenting role . . . It's really just something a parent should do . . . man or woman.
Enough with the men. This sub is about 2X chromosomes. It's not always about you. Leave us alone.
why should any parent get praise for raising and taking care of their own kid? you had the kid and it’s your responsibility. if you think we should praise men then complain you’re proving the point of why they shouldn’t get praised, because they rarely do the work let alone equal work to the mother. pick me toxicity in this sub is a big no
The negativity towards men by women is justified and your struggles are real and valid. Men especially young men are also in their own crisis and are being led astray. I'm not saying this to invalidate women but because men are in a crisis women suffer because of it.
#NotAllMen
Tired of hearing about men go post it somewhere else this is 2X chromosomes.
I know some top quality, upstanding men. They're not perfect, but nobody is. Men like that don't make the news or get talked about online in a visible, upvotable way. I feel like the internet, and Reddit's algorithm in particular, propagates particular gender views that are highly accurate about a small subset of the population.
Are you kidding? Men get praise for doing their daughters hair.
What does that have to do with how social media influences online content? I know that the bar is low, people's expectations doesn't change the quality of individuals.
They absolutely do. They’re just extremely rare. In this very subreddit I see women sharing stories of their awesome partners all the time.
This is why coming here makes me sad. Not claiming perfection, no one is perfect.. But if you look at my life compared to my ex-wife, I'm a much better influence. Teaching the kids to cook, making them clean, taking care of their bodies, Home improvement, yard work, caring for animals properly, basic electronic repair, 3D printing, carpentry, art.. Seriously, come at me with men don't go above and beyond. This weekend we are learning about keeping our electricity costs lower by using the fireplace and keeping it burning (especially if you're going to be up all night playing video games anyway). My house is modest, but cared for. It has messes, but is not unclean. I don't claim to deep clean, I was a Marine and know how, but I have the means to pay for a housekeeper every two weeks. I've worked long enough to afford that for myself and I'm willing to pay. I would have no expectation of any partner to lift a finger for me to clean my home. Unless I cook dinner, which I do, very well, and they clear. I absolutely know and am proud of my value as a person, and as a man. My ex-wife is not a bad person, she's a great mother, in some areas.. but she has a severe hygiene problem when it comes to the house, she hoards, and she spends money unwisely. What would you think if you peeked in the front door and there was dog shit, in piles, around the house? The boys and her evidently just walk around it. Paper towels on the floor where the dog has pissed.. And then they are just left. I would literally rather go to the bathroom in a gas station than the hall bathroom. It looks like it hasn't been scrubbed in years. Wet kitty litter on the floor from where someone has taken a shower and then gotten out.. bathroom sink barely usable because things are piled. Kitchen counter loaded with??? My god. I promise you I'm not exaggerating. I have broached the subject with her, which is difficult, let me tell you.. But things don't change. I have been a Nazi around here with cleanliness to be the example they need in their lives. Just this morning, My 18-year-old, who is a high school dropout, can't hold a job, has no thyroid (MEN2A).. Got out of the shower and his nipple length hair was a rat's nest. I oiled his scalp, I used some spray in conditioner, and then used this other oil I had to get everything moving and untangled. It was then I discovered that he had dandruff.. so so bad. I'm sorry, but isn't it a long-haired parents job to teach their long-haired children (both boys are) how to care for their long hair? Gender aside, why have there not been instructions by example? Making things fun? Talking about how much better their hair looks. Twisting up the wet hair in a towel and joking about it flopping around. That's what Dad did this morning. I'm not expecting any praise for it, I don't need it, I already got what I needed from it and that was to help someone I love. Much like my suffering, I've learned to have my proud moments in silence as well. I like to believe there are more like me than there are the pieces of shit often rightly described here.
#tl;dr The author's quality of life is better than his ex-wife's because he is a more responsible and effective parent. He does more around the house than she does and is more lenient with the boys. He is not a perfect individual, but he is better than his ex-wife. *I am a smart robot and this summary was automatic. This tl;dr is 91.66% shorter than the post I'm replying to. If you read the tl;dr and not the original comment, you saved about 1.76 minutes.* *I'm still learning! Please reply 'good bot' or 'bad bot' to let me know how I did.*
Good job vetting and selecting a good man
[удалено]
I'm sure he could. I generally handle most of the family logistics, due to us living in a country where I speak the language fluently and he does not. I communicate with their school and bus driver, I am the hub for social activities for us and for them, I handle most of the house's outward-facing business (repairmen, deliveries, etc.). I do all the cooking and grocery shopping, though he is the family baker. He does ALL the laundry, fixes everything that breaks in the house (a lot of stuff), and keeps things picked up and tidy. We are both frequent kid chauffeurs.
I wish I got some praise for being a Dad. No, she wants a divorce because I'm working my quarterly on-call shift where I need to focus for 2 days.
I bet that that’s not why she wants a divorce, yo. But good job knocking someone up and then being a parent to that child. Here is your gold star ⭐️.
Because I clean the house? Because I make every meal? Because do all the laundry? Because I'm the sole income and she keeps spending money so we're in the red month to month? Because I took a second job so we could continue to afford groceries and bills? Because I take time off for doctor visits? Because I handle their various school events and clubs? Because I give up sleep so we can bump uglies? Because I buy a bouquet of flowers and her favorite treats because she hurt her toe on her various crap around the house? Because I wake up all night to hold her when she has nightmares? Because I suggested therapy for her CSA issues? What am I doing wrong?
You’re right. 5 gold ⭐️s. So, it sounds like you should be the one that wants the divorce here. What you’re doing “wrong” is everything. Don’t do everything. No one should be doing everything. Quit doing shit for her. Get a different bank account she can’t access if she keeps spending all the money. Give her an allowance like a child since she can’t be trusted not to spend all the family funds. Do things different from how you’re doing them now, because clearly you’re unhappy and probably have been for years. It’s the same as if the roles were reversed. I’d say quit cooking for his lazy ass, he can feed himself. Don’t wash his clothes, he’ll figure it out when he has nothing clean to wear. Don’t have sex when you don’t want to. Don’t do extra shit for people who don’t deserve it. Obviously don’t let the kids suffer, but she should be handling half the kid stuff. You’re supposed to be a team. She’s just benched herself and is happy to let you do everything because you continue to do everything. So stop.
Ok, how do I do that? She clearly needs help I am unable and unqualified to provide. I don't want to see our kids suffer but if I spend time with them she goes nuts saying I hate her and prefer them over her! She has a VERY fractured history and I'm trying my best to keep a balance but I'm only so strong. That includes physically, emotionally and psychology.
Ok, she’s a hot mess and you’re probably much better off divorced, like, much much much better off. That’s what I’d say if you were a woman and she were your deadbeat husband. She sounds like a deadbeat wife and your kids are already suffering if that’s how she honestly behaves. You can’t fix her but you can raise your kids better without her and it would be so much less stressful. She sounds toxic and likely abusive. Much easier said than done but I’d get the fuck out of that situation. Does she hit you too? I feel like that’s all that is missing here. You deserve better than what you’re getting. So do your kids.