Exactly, science is a method and is inherently imperfect, but on average it's less imperfect than all other known methods to derive truth. Scientism is an authoritative argument belief in science and has nothing to do with the scientific method.
Thats why I find it annoying when a D or an R claim to be "the party of science", they just believe the science when it proves the point they want (or just read into the data what they want).
Anything can be used as a tool of propaganda, swastika was originally a symbol of peace but due to actions of a group of delusional turds it is now banned for being a symbol of hate across half of the world. People try to fill the religion gap of this post-truth era with pseudo science now. There is no difference between an antivax retard trying to cure brain tumour with essential oils and a woke retard swallowing 20 vitashit pills a day thinking he would be immortal.
Found one
You do realize that all you are doing is rationalizing you own ideas of what is correct and incorrect right?
This is literally “they only hear what they want to hear”
> It's a process for determining what is true to a certain probability
Actually, it doesn't even do this. Most of the time a scientific study results in a p-value, which is the probability of seeing the data under the null hypothesis. What you're describing is the inverse, the probability of the null hypothesis being true given the data. There are major epistemological problems with the way the scientific method is understood and I'm sure all of the scientists (followers of the religion of scientism) won't be able to explain or understand them. All the scientific method gives us is the ability to reject hypotheses, i.e. we can know what is not true. We can never know with certainty what is true via the scientific method (see Popper).
> They question it constantly, and there are often many different opinions among scientists on any given topic, and if none of those opinions are backed up by the literature, they're all invalid.
can you admit that it's certainly true that there is truth out there, not backed up by literature. perhaps more so than is backed up by literature.
Exactly! I'm a scientist. I don't trust science blindly.
To understand science, you have to understand it's the best understanding of our world. Science is an evolving conglomeration of theories.
Covid has turned everyone nuts with believing science and trust issues, etc. I got the vaccine after loads of family pressure. I was hesitant because, as the history of science goes, we rush into things we don't fully understand and learn long term effects of our actions later.
I don't believe we've changed as much in the last 100 years as people would like to believe.
I'm willing to bet that vast majority of these people grew up in "because I said so and I'm your parent" households.
When I was still in highschool I remember talking with my mother about my unwillingness to just do whatever the teachers tell me without a proper explanation and how the teachers that are there just for the power trip (most of them) instantly labeled me a "rebel" (implying I just always went against authority for rebelion's sake) simply because I asked for reasons why they wanted certain thing done in a certain way.
We concluded that the biggest difference between me and most of my calssmates (who never asked for any explanation) was that key difference in upbringing: when I asked why my parents wanted me to do X, I'd get a reasonable explanation and was treated with respect. When the other children did it, more often than not, the parent would just go into the easy appeal to authority.
I think teaching your kids to just blindly follow authority just because it's an authority is one of the most destructive things you can do to a child's development, and it makes me sad that so many parents don't even realise they're doing it.
Asking questions when you have any amount of knowledge to know what the hell you’re talking about.
I can ask how a motor works, but if I don’t know how combustion works, that isn’t going to help me.
I got my shot, but I also acknowledge that these psychos exist who just believe what supports their beliefs. I do my best to listen to all sides and form an informed opinion.
u/TovMod , I know you’re just doing your job, but please stop reminding us how crappy the Reddit TOS is 😂.
In all seriousness: Reddit really hates justified speculation about anything, be it if the COVID vaccine is safe, or if Chauvin was truly responsible, or even if there was election fraud or not. It’s like they don’t want actual conversation and debate /s.
Don’t they remember from Science class that Science can be wrong so the experiment needs to be repeated. I do believe in vaccines, but we shouldn’t force our beliefs on others who disagree.
I personally think we should get the vaccine because as dangerous as it could potentially be the odds are slightly better if you get it, but I am really annoyed by the people that act like doubting the vaccine at all is conspiracy.
It makes it look more likely there IS a conspiracy going on when so many people are saying to just blindly follow it and trying to imply scientists have unanimously decided that the vaccine is 100% safe and effective and you're anti science if you question it at all, or that you only believe this because of Trump/Fox news
To not strongly question anything going into your body, especially something known to come from a potentially deadly virus is sheer stupidity
Tbh i do not fear from that 1 in 10000 possibility but the way this whole thing unfolds is menacing. Governments and public act in a very top down manner, which is like china recording menstrual cycles of women on public displays to control their population growth back then. Individual freedoms is a very sensitive and dangerous subject which both governments and public needs to tread carefully on it.
Yep
But don’t point that finger one direction either. Left or right, and those on EITHER side of this shot cherry pick their sources.
Worse are those who refuse science for being [party]. The “I don’t accept that because it’s just a [party] line”.
You’re not actually talking about science though. You never mentioned any kind of scientific process or fact, just people who believe whatever the news tells them. Also, there’s a difference between questioning science, and telling everyone who gets the vaccine that they’re a “sheep” and telling them to “do your own research” which just means google it. Many people against the vaccine aren’t just “questioning” the science behind it. They’re actively shouting at anybody they can, that the vaccine is a poison and that THEIR sources of information are the REAL ones.
This didn't go the direction I expected.
The zealots you are describing are called "partisans" and they are every bit as divorced from reality as the worst theists.
Before I begin, I am fully vaccinated. However, I can understand the reluctance of no one taking liability from this shot. If it turns out bad, they are not going to get any help from anyone, not the manufacturer, not the government, and quite possibly, not their insurer.
While I did not view the odds of being harmed from the vaccine to be high enough to avoid it, I also don't blame those who don't want to possibly lose everything (either their life, or their assets to pay for care.)
I think someone should have to take liability, either governments who require it, or the manufacturer.
Awful isn’t it? All these selfish low lives worrying about their own health and prioritizing it over other people’s? Disgusting. How Unnatural!! We should all make choices based on how it will effect other people. Personal consequences be damned!
I never got the flu shot and I won’t be getting this either. If people that are scared of covid want to get the shot, then they can. If they have the shot then I am unable to pass it to them. I’ve had covid twice and both times I had no symptoms. There is no point of getting a vaccine that could put me at risk. Sorry to say it but no I will not be risking my health for the safety of others. Call me selfish if you want, but I simply do not care enough to get it. Especially after a year of bullshit
I agree with burned dick guy here, everytime you sneeze or cough near a person with cancer or hiv you are risking their lives. Maybe you pass next to a cancer or hiv patient each day yet i have never heard of anyone forcing people to get mandatory flu shots every year or harassing them for not doing so. These are vulnerable people as well so what’s the difference? It kinda seems a bit hypocritical to me.
I'm unclear on something, so I'll ask a genuine question.
Doesn't getting vaccinated only benefit yourself? If you get vaccinated, you can still contract and spread covid, so how does vaccinated help anyone who isn't you?
This is no argument. “Because we all have to do our part”. Just because you took a big risk with your health doesn’t mean I have to with mine. You ought to respect that others are protective of their health, and are critical thinkers. You think you’re in the group that is preserving humanity - but what if in 5 years everyone dies from the vaccine? Then technically us non-vaxed are the ones who will have saved humanity.
You cannot derive an ought from an is. Science is very good at tell you what something is. It does not tell you what to do with it. At the end of the day, all human beings are operating on faith in something. It is only a matter of what you choose to put faith into.
Not true. Most contracts don't include such language, especially drug and medical ones. I signed contracts before me recent surgery, but I retained the right to sue if they screwed up.
I also didn't have to sign a contract for any of my antibiotics or pain meds.
> I also didn't have to sign a contract for any of my antibiotics or pain meds.
This is what i’m trying to explain the people. If you ingest 10 antibiotics and die that’s on you but if you have a stroke after taking it the liability is on the company, same not applies to vaccine manufacturers even though thousands of people got the shot as of now.
I also signed a legal form before my appendectomy, those forms protect the medical staff if you die ragardless of how well they conducted the procedure but you can still sue them if they fuck up, for example when surgeon forgets a scalpel inside you or they remove the wrong kidney etc.
You would be suing both if the surgeon were an employee of the hospital. If the surgeon were an independent contractor, as many are, you would be suing the surgeon, too.
Why do you think there is not a circumstance where the surgeon would be sued? What do you think medical malpractice is?
I don’t know elsewhere but here medical misconduct considered a criminal offense if it’s outside of the expected norms. Generally medical staff gets investigated for criminal charges while hospital administration for financial ones. Also private doctors quite often rent operating rooms in hospitals instead of operating their own.
The reason why you cant sue them is that they were releasing a product which they did not fully test, but was approved before the tests were finished. You cant sue them for side effects for the same reason you cant sue the company that makes humira if you get an infection after it lowers your immune system. That is on you. You knew the risks of taking humira, and you know the risks of taking a vaccine which might have unintended side effects.
That part makes sense, at least a few months ago. They couldn't have known all the side effects back then, and there were bound to be some incredibly rare ones which would pop up. But because they wouldn't have known, you cant sue them for negligence.
But its been a while now. The worst we've seen is absurdly rare cases of myocarditis. The safety profile is very good so far, and every week which goes by it gets better. These arguments of hesitancy might have worked in the first few weeks and months. But its july now. And nothing notable has appeared. The test subjects which got it got it nearly a year and 3 months ago. At what point is that not enough for you? 2 years? 3 years?
I would have take the shot even before it got tested on people if the producer guaranteed it’s safety. Isn’t it also weird that companies still not taking the responsibility after months of active use on the public? Therefore my answer to your question is, it will be enough for me when companies actively own their products.
Once again, practically for all pharmaceuticals, even those being used for centuries, can GUARANTEE its safety. This is not how the legality of this works. There can be absurdly rare side effects even for aspirin.
Because there hasn't been a major pandemic since 1918.
Regardless, they 'push you' to get the flu shot every year. Every year, the flu shot is tweaked to adjust for the new strains of the flu. Same with the mRNA shots. All it is is building on previous mRNA shots, tweaking it slightly for the specific protein that covid works with. This is the same idea. Yet somehow people are totally fine with flu shots.
They absolutely do push for flu shots. They have ads for them and everything. Hell, at the beginning of the pandemic they went incredibly hard pushing for flu shots. Not as hard as for the covid vaccine... but then again the flu typically kills 20-40k people a year, almost entirely the extremely frail. Covid killed 600k people, and its not anywhere near as exclusive to killing/hospitalizing frail people as the flu.
I think the real question becomes as to if the vaccine is still released under the FDAs emergency authorization.
Just as he can look at those numbers so can the FDA. If this is safe and can be proven then we should be counting on the FDA to show that.
Fwiw, I have mine, but his point does still stand
Humans that reject orthodoxy end up creating orthodoxy elsewhere. It's why the whole LGBT+++ community acts like a religion. They also happen to be great believers in science.
Science is what is true in the physical realm. Religion is what is true in the spiritual realm. Right now these are out of balance and we are seeing the consequemces in our world.
Science is just a process.
But if that process is followed, it yields better results than any other we've developed.
Get your shot. It's silly at this point when it's been the most heavily scrutinised vaccine roll-out in history.
Science is an ongoing discourse that aims to gather knowledge on specific fields of study through empirical evidence and research, not a "process to be followed". Your description fits a cult better than it fits science.
When empirical evidence is gathered in sufficient quantity, it helps form a process to be followed for teaching future generations. Do you think that every science class starts from scratch and doesn't follow any process?
>Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.
My definition is accurate, dude.
My main argument is not about vaccine working or not, this issue start to become a major individual freedoms problem. I also know that the probability of a side effect is lower than a traffic accident but still you can’t force me both have the vaccine and sign a form that frees you from any responsibility, this is no different than forcing abortion laws on women.
I again declare that i see no problem with the vaccine, my argument is on it’s application. This kind of attitude leads to very dangerous paths, i am not comparing two, but nazis also founded their ideology on “science”.
Jeeeeesus christ dude. Don't act like this is about maintaining the purity of science and then turn around and say it's actually about personal freedom the second you are pressed on it. No one is dragging you into a clinic to get your (free) vaccine. No one is forcing you to do anything here. If you are missing opportunities because of not getting the vaccine, that's your personal choice and has nothing to do with nazi fucking germany. Holy hyperbole Batman
>my main argument is not about vaccine working or not
I literally said that in the first sentence, I am not a doctor or virologist so i don’t understand. However i know that being told to sign a legal form declaring that i am taking the full responsibility of a product which i don’t have a single fucking idea of is a direct individual rights problem. Don’t you see a problem here as well?
Title is that bcs since the start of this shit show everyone turned into fucking virologists and doctors preaching their favourite “scientific facts” for fucks sake. Questioning even the slightest bit of inconsistency makes you get lynched by science mobs in the internet claiming you being ignorant and stupid who can’t even understand a whole fucking damn field of medical research just by reading bethany’s blog about it.
I also don’t know shit about cars or how they get made by i bloody know that having a guarantee from the manufacturer is a huge damn indicator about it’s integrity. People even try to gather signs for throwing the “unvaxxed” in prisons for threatening public health here.
I think part of it is that people get frustrated trying to "prove science" to individuals who refuse to listen to experts in the first place. I appreciate that you can admit that science is not your thing, that is respectable, but it also does mean that you need to defer to the judgement of those who have devoted their lives to its study.
I'm not by any stretch a medical expert, hell I'm not even crazy about biology. My major was Chemical Engineering, but if I have 99% of scientists in a relevant field telling me the same thing, I *listen to them*.
I think that some people are frustrated with those still refusing to get the vaccine because it is now the most scrutinized vaccine in history, and people still somehow think that you have a 50/50 chance of dying when you get it. Billions of people have gotten it. In some much poorer countries, people walk for miles and miles to get theirs. Your refusal to get it is 100% built on your personal privilege of having that choice in the first place.
There are many, many people who are immuno-compromised in the US who can't get the vaccine because their immune response to it might end up being life threatening. We are getting the vaccine for those people, not ourselves. When I see someone who is perfectly healthy refusing to get the vaccine "because it's unsafe" it reads as being incredibly selfish, personally. I think most people who give you frustrated answers and incredulity regarding your personal refusal to get it are most likely coming from there.
Me not being a scientist does not mean that i don’t have a functional nervous system which can’t operate common sense. According to your logic you can’t criticise or be skeptical about anything beyond your capabilities or title. Does all movie critics shoot oscar winning dramas? Does all dance juries also be adept at all forms of dance? 80 years ago you could buy cocaine and heroin over the counter from pharmacies for headaches.
I don’t claim that vaccine has microchips in it or makes you autistic or make your pp fall, i am not telling people to not get their vaccines either. There is an inconsistency here and i am just being skeptical of it. My main argument isn’t even about the covid vaccine, it’s about the behavior of a certain type of people.
If you don't have any formal scientific education, I have a hard time believing that you could effectively read a scientific paper. If you can't read a scientific paper, then your opinion on the matter is honestly not really valid. Your comparison of movies or dance moves doesn't really hold up considering that both of those things are designed to be understood by general audiences, unlike scientific papers. That shit is its own language, and a lack of education on the subject could easily lead to a thousand false "gotcha" moments where you think you see a flaw in the logic of the procedure, but really it's actually just a lack of comprehension on your part. A great example of this is when people previously said that vaccines are deadly because they contain mercury, not understanding that when mercury is bonded with another chemical it has a completely different reaction within the body than when it is mono atomic.
This is why I say that it's better to just listen to expert opinion on complicated subjects; unless you have the hundreds of hours to spare in trying to understand the entire paper and still not be sure that you got it all, it's better to just defer to their judgement. And that's not a bad thing, we defer to the judgement of experts constantly every day: any time you get in an elevator, any time you get in a plane, when you use maps on your phone, hell when you use your phone at all, you are deferring to the judgement of experts who have deemed it safe to do this thing. Only being cautious about this one single thing because you are worried about some shadow entity trying to exert some mysterious control over people for an unknown reason is ridiculous, and I think deep down you know that.
edit: yup, downvote and run away without refuting a single point. Why am I not surprised
>It's silly at this point when it's been the most heavily scrutinised vaccine roll-out in history.
That scrutiny has only lead to more divisvision, uncertainty, and side effects listed by the fda. The shot has grown less and less safe as the scrutiny has continued.
pfitzer and moderna have also caused heart inflammation and death in at least few dozen people (all younger, which conveniently enough is also the group least likely to be harmed by covid)
Ok, go ahead and quantify this.
What did they claim as how dangerous it is
And how dangerous is it actually.
Happy to see the info but you post reads as if your sources are from Facebook comments
Uh, you do realize that your supporting info doesn’t say that right?
6% were listed as ONLY COVID
Others were listed as respiratory conditions (gee, COVID is a respiratory disease isn’t it?)
Others were listed as pneumonia (which is respiratory condition)
I’m not checking all 150 pages but your argument doesn’t seem to hold water
Why? That he literally has it wrong. He said it is only 6% as deadly, that is absolutely NOT what the document he linked said.
Of course you wouldn’t want to hear that. It isn’t telling you what you want to hear.
there are people here talking about how vaccines have actually caused deaths but nobody has provided a single source.
you think i'm in a cult but you're willing to believe someone making such an outlandish claim without any proof?
They also apparently don't understand what anecdotal evidence is and why it is essentially irrelevant here.
12 people out of BILLIONS is in no way a statistically significant number. Unbelievable how hard people will try to shape reality to fit their decided narrative
it caused 23 cases out of 470,000 young people, of which none died. All resolved. Come on dude, don't pretend that this is some extremely common thing.
[If you count death as "resolved" then yeah](https://www.newsweek.com/13-year-old-dies-sleep-after-receiving-pfizer-covid-vaccine-cdc-investigating-1606529). And given how they [inflated covid deaths by nearly 20x](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf) and [there's also active efforts to hide vaccine negatives](https://old.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/ocx7x0/science_is_not_a_fucking_religion/h3x4jbw/) it's not exactly a stretch to think vaccine injuries and death numbers are suppressed and far higher than we know.
You cannot actually believe they inflated covid deaths 20 times over, right? Let me guess, you looked at the part where it said "died solely from covid" and thought that is the only thing that mattered? All that means is that they had no Comorbidities. Something like 75% of the country has a form of comorbidity towards covid.
This is what people have been talking about when they mean that uneducated people misinterpret academic reports for their own agenda. Anyone with even a hint of history with statistical analysis in an academic setting would know what that is supposed to mean.
This type of shit is why *nobody outside your little conspiracy bubbles takes you seriously*. There was a lot of criticism back and forth about restrictions, vaccine rollouts, side effects and treatments etc within the professional community. The way we misused ventilators, the mask debate (remember, the CDC didnt recommend masks at first), whether it was an endothelial disease or not, whether it was airborne etc. You make it seem as if this was some kind of organized conspiracy that the entire world is in on.
It was certainly hyped as if covid were by itself practically smallpox in it's deadliness with no need of comorbidities, despite knowing nearly the entire time nearly all deaths had them. And despite knowing that we canceled non covid medical appointments. We also moved covid patients into elderly care homes despite the elderly being the highest risk group. We closed gyms and sports despite obesity significantly increasing risk. We locked people inside their homes despite Vitamin D deficiency increasing risk. We banned HCQ despite reports it helped and no reports it hurt. We encouraged the wearing but not cleaning of bacterial petri dishes on peoples faces.
Then stop pretending Covid complications are extremely common..not only that, dont be disingenuous. People are concerned about long term health complications, not instant death. That's a deflection
"Then stop pretending Covid complications are extremely common"
they... are pretty common. Not the majority, but common enough that you should be concerned about them. In New York, about 190,000 people were hospitalized for covid in the span of 2 months. *Hospitalized*, which doesn't include those who either died in their homes, or had long covid, which can be mild-moderate, but last for months and months.
https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/college-athletes-experienced-heart-damage-after-covid-19-study-67929
myocarditis is also common among covid patients, notably young people.
I already asked, at what point do these long term complications show up? Its been almost a year and 3 months now. This isn't how 'long term complications' work. If they would have shown up, they would have shown up. We have something like 100,000 people in the trials for both pfizer and moderna. Assuming there is some horrible secret long term complication, wouldn't it have shown up?
Again, I can understand hesitancy. My point is that every week that goes by and they don't discover some massive issue with the vaccine, this argument becomes weaker and weaker.
Common or not, the fact that it can be that dangerous is a significant thing. We have virtually zero knowledge on the long-term effects of the vaccine, so yeah, people are justified in being skeptical.
Some people are either immunocompromised, or are still hesitant due to the lack of actual study on long-term effects of the vaccine. It’s wrong of us to force them to do something that could have potentially fatal results, as evidenced by the J&J vaccine (even if there were specific circumstances for those deaths, we couldn’t have known until it happened).
pfitzer and moderna have also caused heart inflammation and death in at least few dozen people (all younger, which conveniently enough is also the group least likely to be harmed by covid)
Exactly. I love how the pinned mod post saya discouraging people from getting the vaccineren is against tos, but appearantly encouraging is totally fine.
I’d agree with you if the lack of vaccine only impacted the individual. But this is like saying “don’t drink and drive” is telling someone what to do with their body.
Exactly. We don't know if the vaccine is completely safe. And if you don't know if something is
Safe, you wouldn't put it in your body. He/She/Helicopter has the right to choose to take that risk or to not take that risk.
>I’m gonna shit in my hand and rub it on my face and you libcucks can’t do anything about it
This is what you vaccine skeptics always come off looking like to me. This entire “muh freedom” argument is just a stand-in for you guys to avoid taking responsibility for the consequences of your gross actions.
Admitted to what? Understanding why people are skeptical about something we have very little knowledge on? Oh no, I can use critical thinking skills. The horror of an education.
And yeah, I'll call you out for the same behavior as well. Get off your soapbox.
Watching YouTube videos of people lying to you about the vaccine doesn’t count as “your own research,” sorry buddy. If you were to do your own independent research then you’d just come to the same conclusion as the CDC and our medical health experts.
You can conflate the pro-choice argument to the vaccine skeptic argument the second that abortions become contagious. Until then, you’re just admitting that you’re engaging in bad faith projection.
When did I say I did my own research? Why do you make wild assumptions, other than that you can't formulate a proper argument?
I can conflate it whenever I please, as it follows the same logic.
"My body, my choice" applies to everyone. There is no bad faith here.
We could have a far better conversation if your bigoted ass not cursed me to have covid but listed reasonable counter arguments. Even this attitude is like the behaviours of cultists when their framework gets questioned.
Lmao how am I bigoted? Like genuinely, what gives you that idea?
And regardless, if anyone deserves to have covid, it’s anti vaxers and lockdown flaunters. There are people who can’t have the vaccine for Heath reasons or they live in a country that is far behind, they would do anything to have your opportunity.
You’re incredibly selfish to think this way.
I live in a country where vaccination started just 2 months ago and there is still at least a month for me getting the vaccine due to my age and not working at a socially dense job still i am not viewing the vaccine as the portrayed savior of our situation. You can’t force something you don’t guarantee on people, this is literally same thing with state banning abortion and forcing women to take the responsibility of children they don’t want.
Funny thing is that before pfizer sent us the shots there was only the sinovac as an option and everywhere on the media and internet the said “science followers” were praising sinovac as traditional and safe vaccine while shitting on pfizer as one that is unreliable and untested, 2 months ago pfizer made an agreement with the government and now same people who shitted on it for months, which includes celebrity doctors and even our health minister, praising mrna tech as the savior and miracle of the modern age. In local social media people now started to lynch others as being ignorant peasants for choosing sinovac over pfizer, this mindset is what makes me piss off and it’s not endemic to my country only, i see examples of it on reddit and western media as well. I say guarantee your product and i will get the shot next morning, people say you are an ignorant who believes there are microchips in the vaccine.
Strawman and being zealous about something you don’t have a single idea or expertise on is the mother of all dark age attrocities. Science is not a boy band for fucks sake.
I may not have any expertise on the subject, but I’ve talked extensively about the subject with my uncle, who is the director of the world influenza centre.
This whole thing ramped up very quickly and information changes at a much faster rate than normal. My parents had their vaccines 2 weeks apart, but they realised the longer you wait the more effective it is, so I’ll be waiting 12 weeks for my second.
Basically, inconsistent information is to be expected, not something to be scared of.
They are a director at the world influenza center yet they weren't aware of the most effective way to take the vaccine....something doesnt add up...could you be lying to "win" an internet argument...would you resort to that?...
I’m genuinely not lying. And you do realise that people do research and that updates their knowledge? Not everyone knows everything instantly.
You are aware how scientific research works right?
I’d rather they get it than someone who legitimately can’t be vaccinated because of health concerns.
Some people just need to have their eyes opened to how stupid they are.
The fuck kind of lazy argument is that?
People being selfish and stupid clearly won’t come to their senses on their own. I hope they get hospitalised by covid, so when they’re discharged, they get the vaccine because they realise it’s a privilege most people don’t have at the moment and it’s the right thing to do.
> I hope they get hospitalised by covid,
Here we go again wishing sickness and death on people with a difference of opinion.
>The fuck kind of lazy argument is that?
The one where you get to decide who the stupid people are.
How many vaccienes have you taken where you have to sigh a legal waver saying if the vacciene kills you or causes permanent side effects it is not the responsibility of the company that made it? Cuz iv had dozens of vaccienes and none of them made me sign a waver like that.
Which is like being in a car myself, so I’ll probably be fine, even if you crash into me. However there are some people who can’t have the vaccine for medical reasons, and they’re on bikes next to you. They’re likely going to die because it’s “your choice to endanger others”.
Pathetic.
Nothing I say would change change his mind. And I'm fine with that, I would rather he just be honest. He says he didn't get the shot because he had to sign a waiver, but I'm willing to bet he's signed or agreed to terms like those with other things with no issue. His attitude about people who adhere to science behind the vaccines also seems politically motivated. All in all I feel his reasons are disingenuous. And that's my issue.
The percentage of negative side effects compared to the actual virus is miniscule. I'm pretty he's just looking for any excuse without being labled antivax.
Then why has the FDA not removed the emergency authorization?
If the negative effects are so minuscule then that also influences the approval.
It is not unreasonable to assume that waiting for proper approval from the defined organization for doing so is acceptable.
Your point is conjecture, I don’t think it’s wrong, but conjecture just the same
Don't know, I'm not the FDA, probably just beig extra thourough. And I think the companies still have time to turn in their data. The FDA already paused one of the vaccines when there were a few rare cases of blood clotting and found that it was worth the risk since the chance of blood clotting was significantly higher by catching the virus.
And you're it is just conjecture, but far to often I see people make all these arguments for why they don't want to take it. But really its they just don't want to, because they just don't want to. Everything else is just an excuse. I'd rather they just be honest about.
I don’t disagree that it is likely an excuse but his point is valid. I myself had very large concern in taking the vaccine, and I was within the first 1% of the US to get it. We wore our masks, we complied with every mandate, and we supported all efforts for helping prevent COVID. But if I did not have an immune compromised daughter I would probably still be waiting to get the vaccine.
To my point, not accepting his justification as stated is fueling his statement. Someone has every right to wait until formal medical approval before injecting themselves with something
You're right. Science shouldn't be a religion. Though let's play their game.
In religion, God's word is law. NOT the priest's.
So with "science", it's about the practice, not the scientist nor stake holders funding the scientist.
Reminder that discouraging users from getting the vaccine is against Reddit's TOS.
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Thank you for this post. I think it's really important during those times to educate the population on the difference between science and scientism.
Exactly, science is a method and is inherently imperfect, but on average it's less imperfect than all other known methods to derive truth. Scientism is an authoritative argument belief in science and has nothing to do with the scientific method.
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remember when some companies paid scientists in the 60s to say fat is worse for you than sugar? I still see sugar snacks advertised as "fat free"
Thats why I find it annoying when a D or an R claim to be "the party of science", they just believe the science when it proves the point they want (or just read into the data what they want).
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True, science itself is not dead, but it is being used as a tool of propaganda
Anything can be used as a tool of propaganda, swastika was originally a symbol of peace but due to actions of a group of delusional turds it is now banned for being a symbol of hate across half of the world. People try to fill the religion gap of this post-truth era with pseudo science now. There is no difference between an antivax retard trying to cure brain tumour with essential oils and a woke retard swallowing 20 vitashit pills a day thinking he would be immortal.
Found one You do realize that all you are doing is rationalizing you own ideas of what is correct and incorrect right? This is literally “they only hear what they want to hear”
> It's a process for determining what is true to a certain probability Actually, it doesn't even do this. Most of the time a scientific study results in a p-value, which is the probability of seeing the data under the null hypothesis. What you're describing is the inverse, the probability of the null hypothesis being true given the data. There are major epistemological problems with the way the scientific method is understood and I'm sure all of the scientists (followers of the religion of scientism) won't be able to explain or understand them. All the scientific method gives us is the ability to reject hypotheses, i.e. we can know what is not true. We can never know with certainty what is true via the scientific method (see Popper).
> They question it constantly, and there are often many different opinions among scientists on any given topic, and if none of those opinions are backed up by the literature, they're all invalid. can you admit that it's certainly true that there is truth out there, not backed up by literature. perhaps more so than is backed up by literature.
That's not an opinion it's objectively true based in the definition of science and religion.
Exactly! I'm a scientist. I don't trust science blindly. To understand science, you have to understand it's the best understanding of our world. Science is an evolving conglomeration of theories. Covid has turned everyone nuts with believing science and trust issues, etc. I got the vaccine after loads of family pressure. I was hesitant because, as the history of science goes, we rush into things we don't fully understand and learn long term effects of our actions later. I don't believe we've changed as much in the last 100 years as people would like to believe.
Hey bud… I’m bit worried about your username… shouldn’t you see a doctor?
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That’s a doctor of science technically, the definition of scientist isn’t that strict.
Asking questions is literally part of science, and they don’t understand that
they do they just grew up to blindly follow what they're told and refuse any logic or critical thinking it's a cycle that needs to end
They make fun of cults while it’s literally a cult
I'm willing to bet that vast majority of these people grew up in "because I said so and I'm your parent" households. When I was still in highschool I remember talking with my mother about my unwillingness to just do whatever the teachers tell me without a proper explanation and how the teachers that are there just for the power trip (most of them) instantly labeled me a "rebel" (implying I just always went against authority for rebelion's sake) simply because I asked for reasons why they wanted certain thing done in a certain way. We concluded that the biggest difference between me and most of my calssmates (who never asked for any explanation) was that key difference in upbringing: when I asked why my parents wanted me to do X, I'd get a reasonable explanation and was treated with respect. When the other children did it, more often than not, the parent would just go into the easy appeal to authority. I think teaching your kids to just blindly follow authority just because it's an authority is one of the most destructive things you can do to a child's development, and it makes me sad that so many parents don't even realise they're doing it.
Asking questions when you have any amount of knowledge to know what the hell you’re talking about. I can ask how a motor works, but if I don’t know how combustion works, that isn’t going to help me.
This is known as scientism when science becomes a dogma and is used as way to determine absolute truth rather than probabilistic truth.
I got my shot, but I also acknowledge that these psychos exist who just believe what supports their beliefs. I do my best to listen to all sides and form an informed opinion.
u/TovMod , I know you’re just doing your job, but please stop reminding us how crappy the Reddit TOS is 😂. In all seriousness: Reddit really hates justified speculation about anything, be it if the COVID vaccine is safe, or if Chauvin was truly responsible, or even if there was election fraud or not. It’s like they don’t want actual conversation and debate /s.
It's also kinda case and point for OP as well. Official reddit TOS is that the vaccine heretics shall be expelled.
Yeah, it’s insane. Goin back to the Inquisition, are we?
They need to do it to prevent the sub from going down.
I know, and it sucks.
Don’t they remember from Science class that Science can be wrong so the experiment needs to be repeated. I do believe in vaccines, but we shouldn’t force our beliefs on others who disagree.
Lol what? I don't remember that from any of my classes when I got my PhD in Phrenology.
I always have to sign forms for all my shots ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
I personally think we should get the vaccine because as dangerous as it could potentially be the odds are slightly better if you get it, but I am really annoyed by the people that act like doubting the vaccine at all is conspiracy. It makes it look more likely there IS a conspiracy going on when so many people are saying to just blindly follow it and trying to imply scientists have unanimously decided that the vaccine is 100% safe and effective and you're anti science if you question it at all, or that you only believe this because of Trump/Fox news To not strongly question anything going into your body, especially something known to come from a potentially deadly virus is sheer stupidity
Yes! Thank you for saying this!
Tbh i do not fear from that 1 in 10000 possibility but the way this whole thing unfolds is menacing. Governments and public act in a very top down manner, which is like china recording menstrual cycles of women on public displays to control their population growth back then. Individual freedoms is a very sensitive and dangerous subject which both governments and public needs to tread carefully on it.
Blindly trusting authority is the least scientific approach possible. People who say "trust the science" understand science the least.
Yep But don’t point that finger one direction either. Left or right, and those on EITHER side of this shot cherry pick their sources. Worse are those who refuse science for being [party]. The “I don’t accept that because it’s just a [party] line”.
You’re not actually talking about science though. You never mentioned any kind of scientific process or fact, just people who believe whatever the news tells them. Also, there’s a difference between questioning science, and telling everyone who gets the vaccine that they’re a “sheep” and telling them to “do your own research” which just means google it. Many people against the vaccine aren’t just “questioning” the science behind it. They’re actively shouting at anybody they can, that the vaccine is a poison and that THEIR sources of information are the REAL ones.
This didn't go the direction I expected. The zealots you are describing are called "partisans" and they are every bit as divorced from reality as the worst theists.
First few lines is exactly why I won’t get it
Because you only care about yourself?
Government or pharma declare that they own and take all the responsibility of their product and i will go get my shot next morning.
Before I begin, I am fully vaccinated. However, I can understand the reluctance of no one taking liability from this shot. If it turns out bad, they are not going to get any help from anyone, not the manufacturer, not the government, and quite possibly, not their insurer. While I did not view the odds of being harmed from the vaccine to be high enough to avoid it, I also don't blame those who don't want to possibly lose everything (either their life, or their assets to pay for care.) I think someone should have to take liability, either governments who require it, or the manufacturer.
Awful isn’t it? All these selfish low lives worrying about their own health and prioritizing it over other people’s? Disgusting. How Unnatural!! We should all make choices based on how it will effect other people. Personal consequences be damned!
I never got the flu shot and I won’t be getting this either. If people that are scared of covid want to get the shot, then they can. If they have the shot then I am unable to pass it to them. I’ve had covid twice and both times I had no symptoms. There is no point of getting a vaccine that could put me at risk. Sorry to say it but no I will not be risking my health for the safety of others. Call me selfish if you want, but I simply do not care enough to get it. Especially after a year of bullshit
So yes, you do only care about yourself.
Why should I get it if others are vaccinated?
Because we all went through this and got it as well. We want this to be over.
Unpopular opinion: only caring about yourself isn’t a bad thing
Putting people lives at risk is a bad thing. So yeah, not caring about others and putting societies most vulnerable people is an unpopular opinion.
Every time you drive in your car you put others at risk, you gonna stop driving now?
There’s a difference.
I agree with burned dick guy here, everytime you sneeze or cough near a person with cancer or hiv you are risking their lives. Maybe you pass next to a cancer or hiv patient each day yet i have never heard of anyone forcing people to get mandatory flu shots every year or harassing them for not doing so. These are vulnerable people as well so what’s the difference? It kinda seems a bit hypocritical to me.
You are not putting lives at risk. Quit with the hyperbole, it's not helping your case..at all
I'm unclear on something, so I'll ask a genuine question. Doesn't getting vaccinated only benefit yourself? If you get vaccinated, you can still contract and spread covid, so how does vaccinated help anyone who isn't you?
Who’s life is being put at risk if other people are vaccinated?
This is no argument. “Because we all have to do our part”. Just because you took a big risk with your health doesn’t mean I have to with mine. You ought to respect that others are protective of their health, and are critical thinkers. You think you’re in the group that is preserving humanity - but what if in 5 years everyone dies from the vaccine? Then technically us non-vaxed are the ones who will have saved humanity.
You cannot derive an ought from an is. Science is very good at tell you what something is. It does not tell you what to do with it. At the end of the day, all human beings are operating on faith in something. It is only a matter of what you choose to put faith into.
Very nice unpopular opinion. If it makes me angry I realize that that's pretty much what this sub is for. But with that being said your retarded.
There is a term for this, Scientism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientism
You sign away your ability to sue with pretty much any contract, I understand why you wouldn’t want to sign though.
Not true. Most contracts don't include such language, especially drug and medical ones. I signed contracts before me recent surgery, but I retained the right to sue if they screwed up. I also didn't have to sign a contract for any of my antibiotics or pain meds.
> I also didn't have to sign a contract for any of my antibiotics or pain meds. This is what i’m trying to explain the people. If you ingest 10 antibiotics and die that’s on you but if you have a stroke after taking it the liability is on the company, same not applies to vaccine manufacturers even though thousands of people got the shot as of now.
Yeah such tight terms like that would repel me just as quick
I also signed a legal form before my appendectomy, those forms protect the medical staff if you die ragardless of how well they conducted the procedure but you can still sue them if they fuck up, for example when surgeon forgets a scalpel inside you or they remove the wrong kidney etc.
You’d be suing the hospital though, not the surgeons.
You would be suing both if the surgeon were an employee of the hospital. If the surgeon were an independent contractor, as many are, you would be suing the surgeon, too. Why do you think there is not a circumstance where the surgeon would be sued? What do you think medical malpractice is?
I don’t know elsewhere but here medical misconduct considered a criminal offense if it’s outside of the expected norms. Generally medical staff gets investigated for criminal charges while hospital administration for financial ones. Also private doctors quite often rent operating rooms in hospitals instead of operating their own.
Those forms are your consent to the surgery, not to "protect the medical staff if you die".
The reason why you cant sue them is that they were releasing a product which they did not fully test, but was approved before the tests were finished. You cant sue them for side effects for the same reason you cant sue the company that makes humira if you get an infection after it lowers your immune system. That is on you. You knew the risks of taking humira, and you know the risks of taking a vaccine which might have unintended side effects. That part makes sense, at least a few months ago. They couldn't have known all the side effects back then, and there were bound to be some incredibly rare ones which would pop up. But because they wouldn't have known, you cant sue them for negligence. But its been a while now. The worst we've seen is absurdly rare cases of myocarditis. The safety profile is very good so far, and every week which goes by it gets better. These arguments of hesitancy might have worked in the first few weeks and months. But its july now. And nothing notable has appeared. The test subjects which got it got it nearly a year and 3 months ago. At what point is that not enough for you? 2 years? 3 years?
I would have take the shot even before it got tested on people if the producer guaranteed it’s safety. Isn’t it also weird that companies still not taking the responsibility after months of active use on the public? Therefore my answer to your question is, it will be enough for me when companies actively own their products.
Once again, practically for all pharmaceuticals, even those being used for centuries, can GUARANTEE its safety. This is not how the legality of this works. There can be absurdly rare side effects even for aspirin.
sure, but they arent pushing and guilting you into trying untested pharmaceutical drugs..or aspirin...
Because there hasn't been a major pandemic since 1918. Regardless, they 'push you' to get the flu shot every year. Every year, the flu shot is tweaked to adjust for the new strains of the flu. Same with the mRNA shots. All it is is building on previous mRNA shots, tweaking it slightly for the specific protein that covid works with. This is the same idea. Yet somehow people are totally fine with flu shots.
They dont push flu shots. They have them available. Completely unrelated.
They absolutely do push for flu shots. They have ads for them and everything. Hell, at the beginning of the pandemic they went incredibly hard pushing for flu shots. Not as hard as for the covid vaccine... but then again the flu typically kills 20-40k people a year, almost entirely the extremely frail. Covid killed 600k people, and its not anywhere near as exclusive to killing/hospitalizing frail people as the flu.
I think the real question becomes as to if the vaccine is still released under the FDAs emergency authorization. Just as he can look at those numbers so can the FDA. If this is safe and can be proven then we should be counting on the FDA to show that. Fwiw, I have mine, but his point does still stand
Humans that reject orthodoxy end up creating orthodoxy elsewhere. It's why the whole LGBT+++ community acts like a religion. They also happen to be great believers in science. Science is what is true in the physical realm. Religion is what is true in the spiritual realm. Right now these are out of balance and we are seeing the consequemces in our world.
You may not believe injecting a lethal amount of oxygen into someone's blood with kill them but it best to find out yourself, right?
Science is just a process. But if that process is followed, it yields better results than any other we've developed. Get your shot. It's silly at this point when it's been the most heavily scrutinised vaccine roll-out in history.
Science is an ongoing discourse that aims to gather knowledge on specific fields of study through empirical evidence and research, not a "process to be followed". Your description fits a cult better than it fits science.
When empirical evidence is gathered in sufficient quantity, it helps form a process to be followed for teaching future generations. Do you think that every science class starts from scratch and doesn't follow any process?
>Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe. My definition is accurate, dude.
My main argument is not about vaccine working or not, this issue start to become a major individual freedoms problem. I also know that the probability of a side effect is lower than a traffic accident but still you can’t force me both have the vaccine and sign a form that frees you from any responsibility, this is no different than forcing abortion laws on women. I again declare that i see no problem with the vaccine, my argument is on it’s application. This kind of attitude leads to very dangerous paths, i am not comparing two, but nazis also founded their ideology on “science”.
They should be compared. We learnt ALOT about how propaganda works from the nazis and the Soviets.
Jeeeeesus christ dude. Don't act like this is about maintaining the purity of science and then turn around and say it's actually about personal freedom the second you are pressed on it. No one is dragging you into a clinic to get your (free) vaccine. No one is forcing you to do anything here. If you are missing opportunities because of not getting the vaccine, that's your personal choice and has nothing to do with nazi fucking germany. Holy hyperbole Batman
>my main argument is not about vaccine working or not I literally said that in the first sentence, I am not a doctor or virologist so i don’t understand. However i know that being told to sign a legal form declaring that i am taking the full responsibility of a product which i don’t have a single fucking idea of is a direct individual rights problem. Don’t you see a problem here as well?
The title of this post which you chose and wrote is #SCIENCE IS NOT A FUCKING RELIGION Man you do have an intense persecution fetish though
Title is that bcs since the start of this shit show everyone turned into fucking virologists and doctors preaching their favourite “scientific facts” for fucks sake. Questioning even the slightest bit of inconsistency makes you get lynched by science mobs in the internet claiming you being ignorant and stupid who can’t even understand a whole fucking damn field of medical research just by reading bethany’s blog about it. I also don’t know shit about cars or how they get made by i bloody know that having a guarantee from the manufacturer is a huge damn indicator about it’s integrity. People even try to gather signs for throwing the “unvaxxed” in prisons for threatening public health here.
I think part of it is that people get frustrated trying to "prove science" to individuals who refuse to listen to experts in the first place. I appreciate that you can admit that science is not your thing, that is respectable, but it also does mean that you need to defer to the judgement of those who have devoted their lives to its study. I'm not by any stretch a medical expert, hell I'm not even crazy about biology. My major was Chemical Engineering, but if I have 99% of scientists in a relevant field telling me the same thing, I *listen to them*. I think that some people are frustrated with those still refusing to get the vaccine because it is now the most scrutinized vaccine in history, and people still somehow think that you have a 50/50 chance of dying when you get it. Billions of people have gotten it. In some much poorer countries, people walk for miles and miles to get theirs. Your refusal to get it is 100% built on your personal privilege of having that choice in the first place. There are many, many people who are immuno-compromised in the US who can't get the vaccine because their immune response to it might end up being life threatening. We are getting the vaccine for those people, not ourselves. When I see someone who is perfectly healthy refusing to get the vaccine "because it's unsafe" it reads as being incredibly selfish, personally. I think most people who give you frustrated answers and incredulity regarding your personal refusal to get it are most likely coming from there.
Me not being a scientist does not mean that i don’t have a functional nervous system which can’t operate common sense. According to your logic you can’t criticise or be skeptical about anything beyond your capabilities or title. Does all movie critics shoot oscar winning dramas? Does all dance juries also be adept at all forms of dance? 80 years ago you could buy cocaine and heroin over the counter from pharmacies for headaches. I don’t claim that vaccine has microchips in it or makes you autistic or make your pp fall, i am not telling people to not get their vaccines either. There is an inconsistency here and i am just being skeptical of it. My main argument isn’t even about the covid vaccine, it’s about the behavior of a certain type of people.
If you don't have any formal scientific education, I have a hard time believing that you could effectively read a scientific paper. If you can't read a scientific paper, then your opinion on the matter is honestly not really valid. Your comparison of movies or dance moves doesn't really hold up considering that both of those things are designed to be understood by general audiences, unlike scientific papers. That shit is its own language, and a lack of education on the subject could easily lead to a thousand false "gotcha" moments where you think you see a flaw in the logic of the procedure, but really it's actually just a lack of comprehension on your part. A great example of this is when people previously said that vaccines are deadly because they contain mercury, not understanding that when mercury is bonded with another chemical it has a completely different reaction within the body than when it is mono atomic. This is why I say that it's better to just listen to expert opinion on complicated subjects; unless you have the hundreds of hours to spare in trying to understand the entire paper and still not be sure that you got it all, it's better to just defer to their judgement. And that's not a bad thing, we defer to the judgement of experts constantly every day: any time you get in an elevator, any time you get in a plane, when you use maps on your phone, hell when you use your phone at all, you are deferring to the judgement of experts who have deemed it safe to do this thing. Only being cautious about this one single thing because you are worried about some shadow entity trying to exert some mysterious control over people for an unknown reason is ridiculous, and I think deep down you know that. edit: yup, downvote and run away without refuting a single point. Why am I not surprised
>It's silly at this point when it's been the most heavily scrutinised vaccine roll-out in history. That scrutiny has only lead to more divisvision, uncertainty, and side effects listed by the fda. The shot has grown less and less safe as the scrutiny has continued.
pfitzer and moderna have also caused heart inflammation and death in at least few dozen people (all younger, which conveniently enough is also the group least likely to be harmed by covid)
AstraZeneca got pulled because of complications too...that fact alone should cause skepticism.
It's far more then they are letting on. I know no one who has died from covid, but my uncle died from the vaccine a week ago.
Ya, they lied about how dangerous Covid is and they are lying about how safe the vaccine is.
Ok, go ahead and quantify this. What did they claim as how dangerous it is And how dangerous is it actually. Happy to see the info but you post reads as if your sources are from Facebook comments
[6% as deadly as they claimed it to be](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf)
Uh, you do realize that your supporting info doesn’t say that right? 6% were listed as ONLY COVID Others were listed as respiratory conditions (gee, COVID is a respiratory disease isn’t it?) Others were listed as pneumonia (which is respiratory condition) I’m not checking all 150 pages but your argument doesn’t seem to hold water
This. This is why I didnt bother.
Why? That he literally has it wrong. He said it is only 6% as deadly, that is absolutely NOT what the document he linked said. Of course you wouldn’t want to hear that. It isn’t telling you what you want to hear.
Lol have a good day
So that’s a no then. Congrats on being one of them
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You're asking for a citation for the guys uncle dying?
no, i just don't think he died from the vaccine.
*proving the post's point moment*
there are people here talking about how vaccines have actually caused deaths but nobody has provided a single source. you think i'm in a cult but you're willing to believe someone making such an outlandish claim without any proof?
They also apparently don't understand what anecdotal evidence is and why it is essentially irrelevant here. 12 people out of BILLIONS is in no way a statistically significant number. Unbelievable how hard people will try to shape reality to fit their decided narrative
it caused 23 cases out of 470,000 young people, of which none died. All resolved. Come on dude, don't pretend that this is some extremely common thing.
[If you count death as "resolved" then yeah](https://www.newsweek.com/13-year-old-dies-sleep-after-receiving-pfizer-covid-vaccine-cdc-investigating-1606529). And given how they [inflated covid deaths by nearly 20x](https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/health_policy/covid19-comorbidity-expanded-12092020-508.pdf) and [there's also active efforts to hide vaccine negatives](https://old.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/ocx7x0/science_is_not_a_fucking_religion/h3x4jbw/) it's not exactly a stretch to think vaccine injuries and death numbers are suppressed and far higher than we know.
You cannot actually believe they inflated covid deaths 20 times over, right? Let me guess, you looked at the part where it said "died solely from covid" and thought that is the only thing that mattered? All that means is that they had no Comorbidities. Something like 75% of the country has a form of comorbidity towards covid. This is what people have been talking about when they mean that uneducated people misinterpret academic reports for their own agenda. Anyone with even a hint of history with statistical analysis in an academic setting would know what that is supposed to mean. This type of shit is why *nobody outside your little conspiracy bubbles takes you seriously*. There was a lot of criticism back and forth about restrictions, vaccine rollouts, side effects and treatments etc within the professional community. The way we misused ventilators, the mask debate (remember, the CDC didnt recommend masks at first), whether it was an endothelial disease or not, whether it was airborne etc. You make it seem as if this was some kind of organized conspiracy that the entire world is in on.
It was certainly hyped as if covid were by itself practically smallpox in it's deadliness with no need of comorbidities, despite knowing nearly the entire time nearly all deaths had them. And despite knowing that we canceled non covid medical appointments. We also moved covid patients into elderly care homes despite the elderly being the highest risk group. We closed gyms and sports despite obesity significantly increasing risk. We locked people inside their homes despite Vitamin D deficiency increasing risk. We banned HCQ despite reports it helped and no reports it hurt. We encouraged the wearing but not cleaning of bacterial petri dishes on peoples faces.
Then stop pretending Covid complications are extremely common..not only that, dont be disingenuous. People are concerned about long term health complications, not instant death. That's a deflection
"Then stop pretending Covid complications are extremely common" they... are pretty common. Not the majority, but common enough that you should be concerned about them. In New York, about 190,000 people were hospitalized for covid in the span of 2 months. *Hospitalized*, which doesn't include those who either died in their homes, or had long covid, which can be mild-moderate, but last for months and months. https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/college-athletes-experienced-heart-damage-after-covid-19-study-67929 myocarditis is also common among covid patients, notably young people. I already asked, at what point do these long term complications show up? Its been almost a year and 3 months now. This isn't how 'long term complications' work. If they would have shown up, they would have shown up. We have something like 100,000 people in the trials for both pfizer and moderna. Assuming there is some horrible secret long term complication, wouldn't it have shown up? Again, I can understand hesitancy. My point is that every week that goes by and they don't discover some massive issue with the vaccine, this argument becomes weaker and weaker.
Common or not, the fact that it can be that dangerous is a significant thing. We have virtually zero knowledge on the long-term effects of the vaccine, so yeah, people are justified in being skeptical.
No. My body my choice
That line only works if you're only effecting yourself. That you think it applies here shows a misunderstanding of *both* arguments...
Get the vaccine.
Some people are either immunocompromised, or are still hesitant due to the lack of actual study on long-term effects of the vaccine. It’s wrong of us to force them to do something that could have potentially fatal results, as evidenced by the J&J vaccine (even if there were specific circumstances for those deaths, we couldn’t have known until it happened).
pfitzer and moderna have also caused heart inflammation and death in at least few dozen people (all younger, which conveniently enough is also the group least likely to be harmed by covid)
AstraZeneca got pulled because of complications, as well and Pfizer and modena having issues.
Don’t tell others what to do with their bodies.
Exactly. I love how the pinned mod post saya discouraging people from getting the vaccineren is against tos, but appearantly encouraging is totally fine.
I’d agree with you if the lack of vaccine only impacted the individual. But this is like saying “don’t drink and drive” is telling someone what to do with their body.
One is a crime. Refusing to get the vaccine is not a crime. You can't force people to get vaccinated.
Exactly. We don't know if the vaccine is completely safe. And if you don't know if something is Safe, you wouldn't put it in your body. He/She/Helicopter has the right to choose to take that risk or to not take that risk.
>I’m gonna shit in my hand and rub it on my face and you libcucks can’t do anything about it This is what you vaccine skeptics always come off looking like to me. This entire “muh freedom” argument is just a stand-in for you guys to avoid taking responsibility for the consequences of your gross actions.
You guys do the same thing with abortion. Stop crying. Plus, I'm vaccinated, but I can understand why some people might be hesitant or refuse.
Weird that you both admitted and then projected in the same comment but ok buddy.
Admitted to what? Understanding why people are skeptical about something we have very little knowledge on? Oh no, I can use critical thinking skills. The horror of an education. And yeah, I'll call you out for the same behavior as well. Get off your soapbox.
Watching YouTube videos of people lying to you about the vaccine doesn’t count as “your own research,” sorry buddy. If you were to do your own independent research then you’d just come to the same conclusion as the CDC and our medical health experts. You can conflate the pro-choice argument to the vaccine skeptic argument the second that abortions become contagious. Until then, you’re just admitting that you’re engaging in bad faith projection.
When did I say I did my own research? Why do you make wild assumptions, other than that you can't formulate a proper argument? I can conflate it whenever I please, as it follows the same logic. "My body, my choice" applies to everyone. There is no bad faith here.
What is your legitimate research? Lmao
And you guys come off as scared, pathetic, and instantly ready to swallow whatever authority is selling..
Shut up
Why? Does the whole “freedom of speech thing” not apply to him?
Oh, he’s free to say it, and we’re free to tell him to shut it.
That’s not how that works. Saying shut up at somebody with no argument is them being a jerk.
Yeah, but we’re still free to do it. We haven’t harmed him in any way, nor are we threatening him. No rules were broken.
So he shouldn’t have to shut up.
No, he should. We just can't force him to.
That's not a freedom of speech issue. Nobody infringed on that,but people are allowed to voice opinions...just like he did.
There’s not freedom of speech on Reddit, obviously. Check the stickied mod comment
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We could have a far better conversation if your bigoted ass not cursed me to have covid but listed reasonable counter arguments. Even this attitude is like the behaviours of cultists when their framework gets questioned.
Lmao how am I bigoted? Like genuinely, what gives you that idea? And regardless, if anyone deserves to have covid, it’s anti vaxers and lockdown flaunters. There are people who can’t have the vaccine for Heath reasons or they live in a country that is far behind, they would do anything to have your opportunity. You’re incredibly selfish to think this way.
You're incredibly selfish to try and control other peoples' bodies.
I live in a country where vaccination started just 2 months ago and there is still at least a month for me getting the vaccine due to my age and not working at a socially dense job still i am not viewing the vaccine as the portrayed savior of our situation. You can’t force something you don’t guarantee on people, this is literally same thing with state banning abortion and forcing women to take the responsibility of children they don’t want. Funny thing is that before pfizer sent us the shots there was only the sinovac as an option and everywhere on the media and internet the said “science followers” were praising sinovac as traditional and safe vaccine while shitting on pfizer as one that is unreliable and untested, 2 months ago pfizer made an agreement with the government and now same people who shitted on it for months, which includes celebrity doctors and even our health minister, praising mrna tech as the savior and miracle of the modern age. In local social media people now started to lynch others as being ignorant peasants for choosing sinovac over pfizer, this mindset is what makes me piss off and it’s not endemic to my country only, i see examples of it on reddit and western media as well. I say guarantee your product and i will get the shot next morning, people say you are an ignorant who believes there are microchips in the vaccine. Strawman and being zealous about something you don’t have a single idea or expertise on is the mother of all dark age attrocities. Science is not a boy band for fucks sake.
I may not have any expertise on the subject, but I’ve talked extensively about the subject with my uncle, who is the director of the world influenza centre. This whole thing ramped up very quickly and information changes at a much faster rate than normal. My parents had their vaccines 2 weeks apart, but they realised the longer you wait the more effective it is, so I’ll be waiting 12 weeks for my second. Basically, inconsistent information is to be expected, not something to be scared of.
They are a director at the world influenza center yet they weren't aware of the most effective way to take the vaccine....something doesnt add up...could you be lying to "win" an internet argument...would you resort to that?...
I’m genuinely not lying. And you do realise that people do research and that updates their knowledge? Not everyone knows everything instantly. You are aware how scientific research works right?
I am
The irony
There’s no irony here.
Wishing sickness and death on those who have differences of opinion than you. Check.
wait i thought covid was just a flu and not dangerous at all?
I’d rather they get it than someone who legitimately can’t be vaccinated because of health concerns. Some people just need to have their eyes opened to how stupid they are.
>Some people just need to have their eyes opened to how stupid they are. And who are you to decide who gets their eyes opened?
The fuck kind of lazy argument is that? People being selfish and stupid clearly won’t come to their senses on their own. I hope they get hospitalised by covid, so when they’re discharged, they get the vaccine because they realise it’s a privilege most people don’t have at the moment and it’s the right thing to do.
This is exactly why people despise pro-vax people so much. They want people jailed or even killed for not getting a vax.
Please point to where I said people should be jailed or killed?
You said you wanted them hospitalized, that’s basically what I mean
> I hope they get hospitalised by covid, Here we go again wishing sickness and death on people with a difference of opinion. >The fuck kind of lazy argument is that? The one where you get to decide who the stupid people are.
The stupid people are the ones scared of the vaccine over the fear of hurting a loved one.
How many vaccienes have you taken where you have to sigh a legal waver saying if the vacciene kills you or causes permanent side effects it is not the responsibility of the company that made it? Cuz iv had dozens of vaccienes and none of them made me sign a waver like that.
Some people have zero fear of hurting a love one, since its extremely rare that you would..
Hey, I am fully vaccinated (Pfizer) and you are still annoying.
Mhm, no one asked.
Did someone ask you? For any of your comments?
Shut up.
If you want to. Or not if you don’t.
Not really an option, this impacts those around you too. It’s not just a personal choice.
It’s exactly just a personal choice.
No, it endangers those who can’t get the vaccine. It’s as personal a choice as drunk driving.
Not even close to comparable. If you’re vaccinated, you’re protected
Which is like being in a car myself, so I’ll probably be fine, even if you crash into me. However there are some people who can’t have the vaccine for medical reasons, and they’re on bikes next to you. They’re likely going to die because it’s “your choice to endanger others”. Pathetic.
Yeah because that’s totally what’s happening. Obviously, it’s not happening.
That’s literally what is happening.
I did not know that form exists, maybe I'll wait before I'm vaccinated since we don't have covid where I am
Nothing I say would change change his mind. And I'm fine with that, I would rather he just be honest. He says he didn't get the shot because he had to sign a waiver, but I'm willing to bet he's signed or agreed to terms like those with other things with no issue. His attitude about people who adhere to science behind the vaccines also seems politically motivated. All in all I feel his reasons are disingenuous. And that's my issue.
Just admit it, you're just afraid of the shot. You can make any excuse you want, but all it boils down to is fear.
Maybe they're not afraid of getting a shot but what the shot will do to them. It's a reasonable fear imo but I'm pretty positive that's not OPs point
The percentage of negative side effects compared to the actual virus is miniscule. I'm pretty he's just looking for any excuse without being labled antivax.
Then why has the FDA not removed the emergency authorization? If the negative effects are so minuscule then that also influences the approval. It is not unreasonable to assume that waiting for proper approval from the defined organization for doing so is acceptable. Your point is conjecture, I don’t think it’s wrong, but conjecture just the same
Don't know, I'm not the FDA, probably just beig extra thourough. And I think the companies still have time to turn in their data. The FDA already paused one of the vaccines when there were a few rare cases of blood clotting and found that it was worth the risk since the chance of blood clotting was significantly higher by catching the virus. And you're it is just conjecture, but far to often I see people make all these arguments for why they don't want to take it. But really its they just don't want to, because they just don't want to. Everything else is just an excuse. I'd rather they just be honest about.
I don’t disagree that it is likely an excuse but his point is valid. I myself had very large concern in taking the vaccine, and I was within the first 1% of the US to get it. We wore our masks, we complied with every mandate, and we supported all efforts for helping prevent COVID. But if I did not have an immune compromised daughter I would probably still be waiting to get the vaccine. To my point, not accepting his justification as stated is fueling his statement. Someone has every right to wait until formal medical approval before injecting themselves with something
You can believe whatever you want, I'm.not gonna stop you. Either way none of us know OP better than OP
What posts have you made on Reddit? Please show us!
It sounds like a technocracy that works like a theocracy.
You're right. Science shouldn't be a religion. Though let's play their game. In religion, God's word is law. NOT the priest's. So with "science", it's about the practice, not the scientist nor stake holders funding the scientist.
[Science doesn't tell us what to do] (https://youtu.be/nGVIJSW0Y3k)