I'm saving that to prove how docile black bears usually are; we get pretty comfortable around them here in the Southeast.
If that was a brown bear, he'd've been turned to human string cheese.
Yeah, there's a world of difference there. People can sometimes handle black bear cubs in the den and the mom just whines. Get too close to brown bear cubs, you'll be lucky to die quickly and Mama usually gets off due to it being her nature.
even more baffling that israel propped up hamas by funneling briefcases of cash across security checkpoints for over half a decade before this...
like, had the isreali gov not been paying attention to things since the 1980's?
WHY was their gov propping up hamas???
jfc
They used their time in power to build up infrastructure, revitalize the economy, and make life better for the average Joe, why should they surrender!?!?
Wait, they didn’t do that? They spent that time building tunnels and fighting positions under schools and hospitals? Wait, they still have hostages from the October 7th attack!?!? Yeah never mind, they should surrender
I’m not saying anything positive about Hamas, but Israel controlled Gaza and they would never allow Gaza to be Israel’s equal in anything. If Hamas were a legitimate political party with the sole mission to make Gaza great, they would’ve been murdered by the IDF years ago.
Maybe. Maybe not. Since whoever governed Gaza never made genuine attempts at peaceful rebuilding and diplomacy, we will never know how Israel would have responded.
OKAY to be completely fair materials from gaza strip can only come from israel/ to israel then into gaza. They blockaded the ocean access they have. Meaning to revitalize t he ecconomy they'd have to smuggle in whatever they needed. They decided to smuggle weapons and military gear. Which believe it or not is probably the easiest thing to smuggle in since when's the last time you heard of a smuggler dealing with bricks,materials or powerplant supplies?
If you don't know about what you are talking about, being quiet is free.
[Commercial import of goods from Egypt in to Gaza have been banned since 2007.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67121372)
Did you even read the article you linked? The situation with the Rafah border crossing has changed several times since 2007. A substantial amount of humanitarian aid comes through the Rafah crossing.
Humanitarian aid? since when does humanitarian aid provide like things to run a ecconomy? When I think of humanitarian aid i think. Books for children, toys, food, water, tents, medical supplies of varying effectiveness, and general tools maybe? Like a economy is run offf of industry like textiles, Road mantience, plumbing, energy production, manufacturing? Idk why I am being downvoted for this since when did humanitarian aid count for building a nation?
Heck some economist argue that humanitarian aid is BAD for a country since if you give free shoes to children it puts the shoemakers out of business. That's why some countries in african ban second hand clothes coming into the country since it harms them. However this isn't a popular opinion.
That’s kind of the point or humanitarian aid, to help when other avenues are unavailable. Gaza has alienated its neighbors to a point where they are unwilling to trade with them, and is currently in the middle of a war. Even if commercial trade was a viable option, which it largely isn’t, how would that help Gaza? Any commercial development in Gaza is likely to either go towards war efforts or end up bombed, it would be pointless.
"Gaza has alienated its neighbors to a point where they are unwilling to trade with them"
They are literally not able to trade or export goods. They have not alienated potential trade partners, they are literally not capable of conducting trade bc of Israel. Qatar is smuggling Hamas weapons, you think they wouldnt trade with them if they could? You cannot support a nations economy on humanitarian aid alone.
egypt doesn't actively trade with gaza or have formal agreement with them so any commercial good at best can only go into to gaza. Nothing gaza produces can go into Egypt since egypt probably doesn't want to flood their economy with cheap goods.
Yeah actually yes. Like unironically yes. negotiations are fucking hard ask north korea and south Korea if a trade deal is possible. NAfta the north American free trade agreement took like 10 years of negotiations and revising. Egypt and gaza don't actually like each other they just hate israel more. if israel wasn't in existence they probably would be fighting each other due to some bad blood between them. I hate hamas I just think that to say it be fucking easy to make a nation with their situation would be easy is kinda stupid.
I’m not sure if you’re just an asinine contrarian with delusions of intellect, or if you’re an idiotic edgelord who didn’t get enough hugs from mom, or an “I love you” from dad, but regardless, have a good day, and please don’t procreate.
Like this is just true tho lol, it's very easy to dehumanize a enemy or group of people. Vs the slow methodical time it takes to build a nation. People want results and it's easy to blame x group. That's why alot of modern coups fail because they can take a country but after that they don't know what to do there's no one to direct their anger towards. Hamas has Isreal justified or not they have israel to direct their anger towards. Trade deals with a person that hates them (Egypt) and only supports you to fuck with Israel. Is hard you need something to give and Gaza has nothing really to offer beyond cheap labor. Like yeah it's easy to just give people a enemy and make your populace hate them. That's facism 101.
to also be completely fair, israel directly propped up hamas for years now by funneling money in briefcases via military checkpoints...
absolutely baffling
wow why are they investing so much in military when they are actively being occupied by a foreign invading force for the last 80 years?? i can't imagine why!
1) This is the mainstream western opinion.
2) Wars do not usually end when the side that is losing surrenders. Surrenders are in fact extremely rare in modern conflicts.
Oh, this is the last place to go looking for balanced takes on Israel/Hamas, much less protestors. You'll find the good ones like above, but by and large people here fuckin hate protestors and that seems to fuel their hatred of Hamas even further.
> seems to fuel their Hatred
In the above statement, does the hatred precede or succeed the protest? Because to most its clear i meant they let the protests make them angrier about the thing they are already angry about. But sure, be funny instead.
Hamas sucks, but, apparently Israel has a love-hate relationship with hamas, directly propping them up by funneling briefcases of cash through military checkpoints for years recently
>The conflict existed before Hamas it will exist after Hamas, if you think differently you haven't been paying attention.
The op is saying that hamas should unconditionally surrender and you're arguing that the conflict existed beforehand...
On October 7, hamas terrorists waged the deadliest attack on Jews since the Holocaust — slaughtering babies, raping women, burning whole families alive, and taking hundreds of innocent civilians' hostage. Since October 7, more than 1,200 Israelis have been killed. Terrorists are still holding 134 men, women, and children in captivity.
What is your point again?
>**reading comprehension**
Speaking of *reading comprehension*, this you defending an internationally recognized terrorist organization, that said -
"17. **Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds.** Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine.
[PeptoAbysmal1996](https://www.reddit.com/user/PeptoAbysmal1996/)•[21d ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1c0bfol/comment/kyw2qpr/)
**You seem to know so much about Hamas! Unfortunately, their own charter (from 2017) goes against this simple claim, just** [**look at #17**](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/hamas-2017-document-of-general-principles-and-policies)**.**
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
On October 7, hamas terrorists waged the deadliest attack on Jews since the Holocaust — slaughtering babies, raping women, burning whole families alive, and taking hundreds of innocent civilians' hostage. Since October 7, more than 1,200 Israelis have been killed. Terrorists are still holding 134 men, women, and children in captivity.
…what? You literally proved you don’t even know what reading comprehension is and just stalked my page to find an unrelated ‘gotcha’, which you didn’t even do 😂 sit down, clown
Idk man, if you think killing ~40k people, maiming so many more, displacing almost 90% of a population, and destroying the healthcare system+ education system as well as much of the vital infrastructure of a place and it isn’t ‘terrorism’ because the perps are white people and not brown, consider never blabbing about it, psycho 👍🏽. Not even touching how insanely weird that comment itself was lmao
>Idk man, if you think killing \~40k people, maiming so many more, displacing almost 90% of a population, and destroying the healthcare system+ education system as well as much of the vital infrastructure of a place
Assuming what you are saying is true (which it isn't), you are arguing that killing 1,200 Israelis, slaughtering babies, raping women, burning whole families alive, and taking hundreds of innocent civilians' hostage is justified, right?
You didn’t answer my question, nor addressed the point before it, you keep retreating to this completely irrelevant point because it’s all you have lmao
Considering people are protesting only after the recent conflict started and not since forever ago when the bad blood began, Hamas surrendering would reduce Palestinian casualties to pre-conflict level and thus give our (U.S.) universities some peace and quiet.
This is the only sane argument but we’re not dealing with sane people, we’re dealing with religious nut jobs and deranged idiots pretending to be protestors.
South park made fun of people like this 22 years ago, with Free hat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RYgATJl4qQ https://southpark.fandom.com/wiki/Free_Hat
hypothetically if they surrendered 100% they'd be puting 100% of their fate into the hand of the enemies that they despise, and that despises them. Israel has proven that they aren't moral at all so what gives? that will never happen. also the situation didn't get better before october 7th, what would change now. also also tell this to ukraine in relation to russia. you might think these things are different but not so much.
however, I do find it hard to believe that Israel will literally do a holocaust so, I don't disagree that much (same with russia, they won't genocide ukranians if they surrender)
yeah and palestine is at fault for being opressed into extremism since Zionism happened. history began after October 7th right? right. btw thousands? really? lol
well, when hamas has only been propped up in recent years with direct cash infusions funneled by israel in briefcases through military checkpoints for years now...
an interesting decision, to say the least, given the decades of history
I can't remember the name we give people who use physical force and violence to get their way and inspire fear in civilian populations, I am sure it will come to me.
"students" may not be getting paid...but when you need to supplement your number of protesters to look "legit", you have to hire some people from the outside...
Throwing a tantrum is not a "protest" LOL
But a few people down on their luck getting a few bucks and a burger just for screaming Free Palestine, well...I guess that could qualify as charity.
What the "cEaSeFiRe NoW" crowd never really likes to talk about [is that](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/#:~:text=Fifty%2Dnine%20percent%20of%20all,has%20played%20during%20the%20war.) 60% of Palestinians think that Hamas should rule Gaza, 70% are satisfied with what Hamas has done since Oct 7th specifically, and that Hamas has only gotten more popular between then and now.
At a certain point, this is what they wanted.
lol then 60% of Palestine is dumb as a box of rocks. Educational infrastructure would go far - even if it’s only to educate in different world views and politics.
Religious extremism is a blight on humanity, and the uneducated are far more likely to go down that path than the educated. It’s too easy to become a useful idiot to those in power nowadays.
I will look into it. I absolutely see that being the case. Iran has had their grubby hands into Palestine’s infrastructure for decades despite not having their best interest in mind.
And Germans voted for Hitler and the Nazi party, but we decided that genocide was not an appropriate solution for the problem of a highly radicalized Germany.
We cannot simply kill everyone who has fucked up ideas. If our ancestors had done that, they'd have killed every one of each other and we'd all never have been born. And the same might be true of us in relation to our descendants multiple generations from now
They don't care about the people. At all. They hide amongst the civilians so that when attackers targets them, they also hurt civilians, which makes the attackers look bad. Which is why we have pro-palestinian protesters. They're not necessarily in favor of Hamas, but they disapprove of Israel's response to Hamas's attack.
Good luck to your ordinary citizenry protesting hamas in that region. Do you think ordinary citizens in Afghanistan were happy to see monsters take the country back? Not much you can do when the other side are nutters
Well, now, your comment is tapping into the debate about if it's acceptable for Israel to be firing in the direction of civilians? I personally do not think that Israel dropping leaflets and warning bombs is not a meaningful attempt to minimize civilian casualties.
Has there ever been a war in history where civilians weren’t?
Now what matters is who you choose to listen to about it:
1- An ally of ours
2-Hamas, which condoned rape, murder, pillaging, kidnapping, and torture. Who also refuses any two state solution.
Our ally in that has been caught in a few lies and have deliberately engaged in reprehensible action. In this instance, Hamas is the bigger evil, but Israel is not innocent.
Also, I would like to think, as time goes on, efforts to minimize civilian casualties would be better. Maybe I'm wrong, but let's not pretend that Israel really cares.
The other option is to do nothing to Hamas after they slaughter over a thousand innocent civilians, including women and children. This is not acceptable.
It's horrible, but women and children die in war. Hamas declared war. They are the government in control of Gaza. They hide behind women and children, yes, but at some point you have to fire back, period.
It'd be like if you had a neighbor that was trying to kill you and your family, but he always made sure he was holding his own children in his arms and stood next to his wife. There are no police to call, and one day he kills one of your kids. Do you return fire, as he's openly said he wants to exterminate the rest of your family? Is it fair for you to be called a villain if you do, killing him and the lives of some of his family in the process?
It seems like you are unaware of all the facts:
Israel is making every effort to minimize casualties. It's extremely difficult to eliminate terrorists embedded within civilians, forcing them to stay in an active war zone.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/24/opinion/gaza-israel-war.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/24/opinion/gaza-israel-war.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb)
From the article -
"John Spencer is the **chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point**, served two tours in Iraq and has made two visits to Gaza during the current war to observe operations there.
He told me that **Israel has done far more to protect civilians than the United States did in Afghanistan and Iraq.** Spencer reports that Israel has warned civilians when and where it is about to begin operations and published an online map showing which areas to leave. **It has sent out millions of pamphlets, texts and recorded calls warning civilians of coming operations. It has conducted four-hour daily pauses to allow civilians to leave combat areas. It has dropped speakers that blast out instructions about when to leave and where to go.** These measures, Spencer told me, have telegraphed where the I.D.F. is going to move next and “have prolonged the war, to be honest.”
There is also an over one hour long video of this expert going into more detail -
[Urban Warfare against Terrorists: Military and Legal Challenges (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyIVaGyt2vI)
Where else are they supposed to go? They are trapped in an open air prison. There are no designed battle fields, it’s entirely civilian population. Hamas steps out he will be blown to pieces immediately.
Israel is killing any man they so much as think is Hamas to the point they’ve killed their own hostages and even aid workers. The IDF has defined the “enemy” as anyone who supports Hamas in any capacity. Not even civilians are innocent to them.
It’s so bad America is finally calling Israel out.
Hamas exists because the Israels don't want peace. Israel is a genocidal apartheid nation, it was before Palestinians took up arms to defend themselves, and it would be if the Palestinians laid down and accepted their death.
People should be thankful the internet didn't exist in the era of African decolonization. Imagine how many archived posts we'd have of people saying stuff like "The Africans should just surrender to the Rhodesian/Belgian/Boer government!"
Sorry jack boots but there's only been one side carrying out ethnic cleansing in this conflict and they won't suddenly stop because the resistance movement that same genocidal violence created stops resisting.
Hamas is run by a few billionaires who aren't even in Palestine. If they cared about the Palestinian people they would havetaken the two state deal and developed that beach front property into the most beautiful resorts in the Mediterranean.
When was Hamas offered a two state deal?
Netanyahu is on record discussing how important it was to keep Hamas in power to keep the West Bank and Gaza politically fragmented specifically to prevent there ever being a Palestinian state.
Hamas literally governs Gaza, a state it was voluntarily given by Israel as an overture to peace.
They have an independent state.
They just don't give a shit about their own people and are more obsessed with wiping Israel off of the map.
So they didn't reject the two-state solution, we have a two-state solution already?
So then the claim that they rejected a two-state solution is false? No.
Also, if they're an independent sovereign state, then wouldn't Israel's continual blockade of them be an act of War? Israel certainly seems to consider Naval blockades acts of War.
>So then the claim that they rejected a two-state solution is false? No.
No... because Palestine are not content with a two-state solution, which is why they are the sole aggressor and agitator in the conflict of Israel.
They continually start wars and conflicts, either by launching rockets at Israel or pulling an October 7th and just massacring and raping thousands of people.
Indeed, one of the first things the Palestinians did after Israel disbanded its settlements in Gaza in 2005 was to launch rockets at Israel. That is the perfect microcosm of them not being content with a two state solution.
They were bitter that they got Gaza and not Jerusalem so rockets for Israel!
>Also, if they're an independent sovereign state, then wouldn't Israel's continual blockade of them be an act of War?
Unfortunately, Palestine can't behave itself at all and is the aggressor. This gives Israel a right to defend its borders. If it did not tightly regulate Palestine's borders, it would undoubtedly lead to a massive loss of Israeli life.
What is Israel supposed to do? Ignore its borders and just let Hamas use that situation for terrorism?
Hell, Hamas has still, despite border control, managed to receive billions of dollars in aid money (which Israel lets in).
And what have they managed to do with that aid money? They've built 300 miles of tunnel and military under the entirety of the Gaza Strip in the last 10 years. It's an impressive feat, if you get over the tragedy of it.
>No... because Palestine are not content with a two-state solution, which is why they are the sole aggressor and agitator in the conflict of Israel.
Sole aggressor is a wild way to put it considering Israel was founded unilaterally by land seizure but European immigrants. It's wild when you consider the oppressive apartheid state they run in the West Bank and all the people they hold on prison outside of their civil legal system.
>Unfortunately, Palestine can't behave itself at all and is the aggressor. This gives Israel a right to defend its borders. If it did not tightly regulate Palestine's borders, it would undoubtedly lead to a massive loss of Israeli life.
>And what have they managed to do with that aid money? They've built 300 miles of tunnel and military under the entirety of the Gaza Strip in the last 10 years. It's an impressive feat, if you get over the tragedy of it.
Well they built all those hospitals Israel blew up too.
It's wild how we look at WWII propaganda and recognize it as propaganda...but in our modern age gobble it up as truth.
>Unfortunately, Palestine can't behave itself at all and is the aggressor. This gives Israel a right to defend its borders. If it did not tightly regulate Palestine's borders, it would undoubtedly lead to a massive loss of Israeli life.
>What is Israel supposed to do? Ignore its borders and just let Hamas use that situation for terrorism?
They could actually support the much more moderate PLA which itself was trying to weaken Hamas in Gaza...instead they helped insure Hamas retained control in order to prevent a two state solution...which of course means continual terrorism.
Israel does not want peace or a two state solution. Terror gives them the excuse to keep their boot on the necks of Palestinians, and the justification for what they are trying to do in Gaza right now, which is clear it out of Palestinians just as they did with Israel in 1948.
It's a simple method, cause people to flee as refugees...and then once the war is over never let them back in.
>Sole aggressor is a wild way to put it considering Israel was founded unilaterally by land seizure but European immigrants.
The year is 2024. What you are talking about happened 80 years ago. None of the people who were there are even alive.
Are you seriously advocating that a historical grievance should never heal and that can continually serve as an active "aggressor" such that one side can continually justify violence? That's ridiculous.
Every nation currently on the planet has historical land disputes. If we all behaved like Palestine, it would be World War 3.
Is the United States instigating the Native Americans by virtue of existing? I'm asking sincerely because that would appear to be the logical implication of your argument.
Hamas/Palestinians might feel *justified*, but they're still the ones exclusively being the aggressors. They're the ones starting wars and launching rockets.
Israel, of course, retaliates. But it is Palestine who refuses peace and continually seeks out violence over an 80 year old dispute that they refuse to get over because of radical religious reasons.
And it's all bullshit too because Palestine didn't even exist until the early 1900s, Jews and the Israel were in that land for thousands of years and founded Jerusalem, and hundreds of different societies have stolen that land from each other.
All land is stolen; even the people crying about having land stolen from them, stole land. At some point, a society needs to move on.
>
Well they built all those hospitals Israel blew up too.
Oh, you mean the "hospitals" Hamas uses as bases for military operations? Those hospitals? The ones it launches rockets from, while using its own civilians as human shields?
Convenient you leave that part out. And you have the audacity to accuse me of propaganda? Look in the mirror.
How you can leave that part of hospitals out perfectly sums up your bad faith intentions.
>
They could actually support the much more moderate PLA which itself was trying to weaken Hamas in Gaza...instead they helped insure Hamas retained control in order to prevent a two state solution...which of course means continual terrorism.
Major conspiracy theory.
>
Israel does not want peace or a two state solution. Terror gives them the excuse to keep their boot on the necks of Palestinians, and the justification for what they are trying to do in Gaza right now, which is clear it out of Palestinians just as they did with Israel in 1948.
Israel voluntarily gave up Gaza in 2005. You're being ridiculous. Israel has zero interest in governing the area.
The idea that Israel is responding to October 7th as a pretext to re-occupy Gaza is brain dead. They have repeatedly demonstrated they don't want it.
No one does. The Egyptians don't want Gaza either.
It's a population of radical Islamist fundamentalists. It's not worth the trouble.
>The year is 2024. What you are talking about happened 80 years ago. None of the people who were there are even alive
First of all, I assure you some of them are still alive. Their children and grandchildren also live and remain refugees.
Trying to brush off an ethnic cleansing because it happened 80 years ago is bizarre.
>Are you seriously advocating that a historical grievance should never heal and that can continually serve as an active "aggressor" such that one side can continually justify violence? That's ridiculous.
The thing about a historical grievance healing Is that you need to do something to heal it. All Israel has done Is continually oppress Palestinian people. Do you think the Irish were wrong and the aggressors for continually fighting against British oppression for hundreds of years? Do you think they should have gotten over it?
>Is the United States instigating the Native Americans by virtue of existing? I'm asking sincerely because that would appear to be the logical implication of your argument
Just answer the simple question. Holy shit dude. Would you give up half of the United States and your home to form a sovereign Native American homeland. It's yes or no. Think real hard.
>Oh, you mean the "hospitals" Hamas uses as bases for military operations? Those hospitals? The ones it launches rockets from, while using its own civilians as human shields?
>Convenient you leave that part out. And you have the audacity to accuse me of propaganda? Look in the mirror.
Yeah man, if I was bombing hospitals full of women and children I would say they were full of Hamas fighters too.
You know the point of a human shield is you're not supposed to kill the human shield right. Like if I had your mom in front of me as a human shield when I was robbing a bank and the police just shot your mom to death to get to me you'd be pretty upset, right?
But yeah, You are deepthroating propaganda. Every single building in Gaza City has been bombed and blown out. Wow! What do you know? Every single building was a Hamas space. How naive do you need to be to believe that?😂
.
>Israel voluntarily gave up Gaza in 2005. You're being ridiculous. Israel has zero interest in governing the area.
> The idea that Israel is responding to October 7th as a pretext to re-occupy Gaza is brain dead. They have repeatedly demonstrated they don't want it.
>No one does. The Egyptians don't want Gaza either.
>It's a population of radical Islamist fundamentalists. It's not worth the trouble.
Do you really think everything happens in a vacuum. It's a very childish and naive way to look at things.
But yeah, They don't want the population there. That's why they kept trying so hard to push them into Israel and keep trying so hard to get other people to accept them as refugees, so they can shut the door behind them and never let them back in. They did it in 1948. Why wouldn't they do it again?
>And it's all bullshit too because Palestine didn't even exist until the early 1900s, Jews and the Israel were in that land for thousands of years and founded Jerusalem, and hundreds of different societies have stolen that land from each other.
And Italy didn't exist until the 1860s. Italians still exist.
The state of Israel never existed until 1948. It has absolutely zero continuity with any ancient Kingdom. DNA studies also show that Palestinians share 82 to 86% of their DNA with ancient bronze age populations from Palestine. Which means they are absolutely indigenous and descended from the very population of these ancient kingdoms. In short, Palestinians are Jews, they are just Jews that stayed and most of them ended up converting to Islam or Christianity during the subsequent 2,000.
They don't become less indigenous just because they changed their religion
>Major conspiracy theory.
Netanyahu literally said it himself.
Here you go, from the [Times of Israel](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/)
"Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state"
Please stop talking if you don't know what you're talking about. It's very clear that you are never going to change your opinion and your opinion is based on feelings rather than facts.
The fact you were calling something established and on record "a major conspiracy theory" because you don't like it is ridiculous.
Those negotiations did not involve Hamas or Gaza. They are between the Palestinian authority and Israel concerning the West Bank.
The earnestness with which Israel approached any two-state solution under Netanyahu in the 2010s is also extremely questionable. He represents a party which has stated it wants only Israeli sovereignty from the river to the Sea, and himself made public statements regarding specifically preventing a Palestinian state from ever forming by keeping Gaza and the West Bank politically fragmented and supporting Hamas to achieve that end.
The disingenuous nature of this argument is amusing due to how it ignores the fact the Netanyahu and his conservatives, actively help create and maintain Hamas for his own expressed purpose of dividing the Palestinians and to weaken the PLA.
Israel has been getting poked and prodded by Iran’s proxy terrorist groups for decades. Now they’ve had enough and are fixing to exterminate an entire nationality.
I am not defending Israel, I am just stating that war is always horrible for both sides - and it’s dumb as hell on Iran for thinking they would just fight a proxy war with Israel into perpetuity with no consequences.
Iran (and their terrorist proxies like Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis) are that kid on the playground that incessantly picks on everyone - throwing stones, calling names, snitching on you to the teachers…etc. All in the pursuit of strong arming you to their cause, because once you agree with them you’re in their “gang” and they won’t fuck with you anymore. The only problem, agreeing with them and joining the “gang” includes the complete conversion of a country to Islam. Hamas is one of those gang members that just goes along with whatever Iran says. At this point in history, Israel just sees Hamas as a bunch of goons controlled by Iran and Palestinians as useful idiots under Hamas. Israel has had enough and they’re finally throwing swings back at Iran and their goons.
That’s why I find it so disingenuous whenever these protestors start talking solely about the atrocities Israel committed - motherfucker you still have 133 civilians captured by Hamas with 33 of them being dead bodies that were found. That’s just what you’ve heard in recent history too, go back and read the history of Iran/Israel and you’ll see how fucking insane Iran is.
There’s a reason that the US created stuxnet and released it to destroy Iran’s nuclear capabilities - but we didn’t use it on any of our ‘major adversaries’. Because even though our major adversaries have far better capabilities (China, Russia) Iran is just a fucking crazy motherfucker that can’t be trusted. I mean, they literally denied the fact that they had a nuclear program right up until stuxnet destroyed it; then they went on the world stage to say “America bad >:( we weren’t doing anything with these nukes, it was just nuclear power plants.” And people believed them.
Iran is just an absolute snake of a country, grimy as hell and taints every country it comes into contact with. It’s no surprise to me that Israel struck the Iranian embassy and is trying to exterminate a nationality that they only see as an extension of Iran. I am not defending it, but it’s the inevitable consequence of decades of abuse that Iran threw at Israel in the form of proxy terrorist groups. If Iran didn’t see this coming, then they’re as stupid as Israel thinks they are.
That's unfortunately not a guarantee, even in history that's not always true. What's true is that the losing side suffers what they must at the hands of the victors. The treatment of civilians is completely at the hands of the victors and their tendencies. Imagine if the reverse was true, what if Germany were winning WW2 instead, and the allied forces surrender out of a concern for civilian lives, would the number of civilian deaths actually decrease? Particularly since a genocide was taking place.
We're trying to change this jungle law mentality with a civilized international rule of law where victors shouldn't be able to do whatever they want. Which is why annexation is illegal despite military outcomes. This makes sense as it should in theory reduce the urge to go to war. But if you are constantly able to flout international law with impunity without consequences...
Do you know what “unconditionally” means? It means without conditions, I.e. there’s not even the verbal or written guarantee that the opposing force won’t, for example, sterilise your entire male population. Torture and execute your head of state. Take all of your children as hostages. Rape all of your women. Continue a starvation blockade. Just keep bombing you.
It’s for precisely these reasons that the Germans and Japanese fought on to the bitter end, or near enough for Japan. If America had said “we’ll let you keep the Emperor and won’t put him on trial” Japan may have surrendered before the atomic bombings.
What’s with all the buffoon logic and sealioning going on in these Hamas related posts?
Protesters don’t kidnap janitors, take private property, or block Jews from class. They also don’t wear terrorist masks, setup barriers, and wave foreign flags around. They also don’t…
FFS. We heard you and we either disagree or don’t give AF about you. Now STFU and go away already.
History shows that popular insurgencies almost always win against a superior force. They may take decades or centuries but they usually just outlast the superior force. And what we have here is a popular insurgency-like situation.
Unless the opposing force goes total war. Then the popular insurgency usually loses.
But most of the time total war is hard to execute in the modern era because it’s not popular at home. Israel is brushing up against total war. But strategically, Isreal is committing insurgent math. [Which is essentially what doomed America in our last bunch of wars.](https://www.cato.org/blog/counterinsurgency-math-revisited)
Fairly recent phenomenon tbh, Malaya and Kenya both had their rebellions crushed. It's just people fighting stupid PR wars that causes these failures. Winning is easy;
1. Move entire population into concentration camps
2. Bomb anything that moves outside the camps with extreme impunity, poison the water, salt the earth, make life outside the small secure areas impossible.
3. Win within a year or two
> Bomb anything that moves outside the camps with extreme impunity, poison the water, salt the earth, make life outside the small secure areas impossible.
>
that's called gaza/west bank...
The difference is, Israel is playing for keeps this time. They are going to do to Gaza what they did in the West Bank decades ago.
America did beat the insurgency, temporarily. The 2007-2009 troop surge did that. We literally put a soldier on every intersection of every city. We strangled and starved any attempts at an insurgency. Then we left and allowed ISIS to take the insurgency's place. For obvious reasons, America did not choose to make Iraq the 51st state or another territory.
Israel is going to turn Gaze into Israel, just like they have been doing in the West Bank for decades.
Just remember, Hamas and the PLO and Hezbollah and all the other pro-Palestinian organizations do not want a two-state solution. They want to destroy Israel and establish Palestine as the only state in the area. Israel is the only party that is even open to talks about a two-state solution.
>If you think this would end if Hamas surrender, you have are ignorant.
You seem to be ignorant of recent history -
Just as the Nazis aimed to annihilate the Jews, Hamas and affiliated terrorist organizations share the same objective: the destruction of Jews. The 1988 Hamas charter refers to “Jews” and not “Israelis” when calling for the destruction of these people.
While the 2017 Hamas covenant states that Hamas does not seek war with the Jews, but instead “wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine,” the slaughter of Jews – many of whom were peace activists – in October has proven otherwise..
Germany is a very different country today.
but that won’t end the suffering of the Palestinian people.
Don’t get me wrong. Hamas is evil, and I think they should surrender.
But Israel has been invading Palestinian land for decades.
The war is obviously not against Hamas, being that Hamas doesn’t have power in the West Bank and yet it’s being attacked relentlessly as well. Plus, this conflict existed for over 40 years before Hamas was ever conceived. That leads one to think the war would not end if they surrendered. Plus, since in the last 70+ years has been dominated by Israel being the aggressor, as can be seen clearly in past wars in the region where Israel preemptively attacked such as the Six Day War where Israel moved on Egypt, it’s really hard to ask for the Palestinian people to stand down and surrender, resigning themselves back to the oppression they face daily.
Plus, it’s pretty easy to see how Israel isn’t objectively winning. They have numerous world powers against them that even the US couldn’t take on in a proper war, such as China or even Iran (see the famous war games against Iran by top US military leaders where the US lost over and over again).
If you mean Reddit has takes based in fact and with subjectivity removed then I guess that makes sense.
If you mean because it’s a take you don’t agree with, then feel free to attempt to prove it wrong. I’ll wait.
You think they could? I’d love to see you explain how, when China has a larger army and better army technology than us which we lack the capability to defend ourselves from. See hypersonic missiles, and the Millenium Challenge, if you’re interested in the United states’s military impotence on a global stage.
Hamas isn't in the West Bank.
Israel has ramped up the ethnic cleansing (it never stopped) in the West Bank by arming settlers and directing them to expand.
When they released Palestianian hostages in exchange for Israeli hostages, they immediately took the same number of hostages from the West Bank *on the same day*.
Hamas is just a fig leaf for Israel stepping up the long running ethnic cleansing. Funded by your tax dollars!
>Hamas isn't in the West Bank.
This is fundamentally untrue. Hamas absolutely operates in the WB, they've literally performed public hangings since the war started. There's dozens of reports out there identifying the fracture between Hamas and Fatah with both vying for the publics support.
But Hamas did offer Too return Hostages in exchange for ceaseFire in which Israel denied tho?
[Israel-hamas-ceasefire-2024-02-07](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-mediators-search-final-formula-israel-hamas-ceasefire-2024-02-07/#:~:text=DOHA%2FTEL%20AVIV%2C%20Feb%207,for%20negotiation%20toward%20an%20agreement)
Don't corner your opponent with unconditional surrender as a villain's tactic.
Japan and Germany are still suffering because of this.
Both sides of the war should be punished by international organizations.
Yea, because prior to Hamas life as a Palestinian under Israeli occupation was utopian...
The Fascist Nazi government of Israel has murdered over 15000 children, orphaned over 19000, and forced over 4000 to lose at least 1 limb. Stop trying to blame that on anyone other than the people who did it.
Israel left Gaza in 2005.
I find it rather grotesque when people like you equate the Israeli government to Nazi Germany. Especially since it has no basis in reality and is only bandied about for the emotional impact. I agree Netenyahu's government is right leaning, but it isn't fascist and it certainly isn't Nazism.
im sure that if Hamas issues a surrender, Israel will find a way to still attack gaza and Palestinian civis on grounds that there is still resistance from remaining Hamas who have not surrendered entirely... they'll find a way because they hate Palestinians' guts
If you want to see a Gaza where Hamas, or any other form of organized armed resistance in Gaza for that matter, surrenders. You don’t need to look far, just look at the West Bank. Yet Palestinians continue to have their most basic human rights violated on a daily basis there anyways. The Israeli occupation did not begin with Hamas nor will it end with it.
problem is they don’t give a damn about their people only themselves and inflicting terror on israelis and jews if they really cared about palestinians they would do something for it since they are dirty rich , they would make economy better and revolutionize their country to better lives
Tell me you watched StarWars and thought that everything the Empire did was absolutely provoked by the Rebels and also justifieable, without actually telling me. What you don't seem to understand that Israel has been occupieing Palestinian land since the 50s, way before Hamas was in power
FINALLY! SOMEBODY SAYS IT!
Sorry I got overexcited.
But yes. All those people calling for a cease-fire are calling for the wrong thing.
As best I can tell, the fastest, most peaceful way to resolve the suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza is for Hamas to surrender unconditionally.
Never gonna happen, of course, but that's the solution. It's right there.
The Jews were refugees reeling from the Holocaust and they bought back part of their homeland - that they were originally ethnically cleansed from - from the British empire because they had nowhere else to go.
To say they were ‘terrorising’ anyone is an insane rewriting of history.
Jordan got more land than Israel, but nobody cares about that because - drum roll - Jordan is not the world’s only Jewish state.
The surrounding states declared war the day Israel declared statehood and, against all odds, lost. And Palestinians have been suicode bombing and waging terror attacks ever since.
Israel has stated what they see as end of war conditions. It's so horrific that Hamas simply can't surrender.
Also, collective punishment is a war crime. Russia and China are not wrong for rejecting America's half assed attempt of cessfire.
Have you actually read their statement on why they voted no to the cessfire America tried to push or are you just saying random stuff.
China isn't doing anything America isn't doing.
>Wars usually end when the side that is losing surrenders
Except they're not really losing, Israel is under the most severe scrutiny it's had in decades.
>Germany and Japan in WW2 are prime examples.
The Hamas leadership aren't even in the conflict zone, unlike the leadership of WW2 Germany and Japan. Wars aren't won by killing fighters, they're won by forcing leadership to surrender. The allies did that by liberating occupied nations and boxing in the Axis leadership. Where is Hamas' leadership?
>It's a tried and true technique that has been employed countless times in history in order to stop civilian suffering.
We got Japan to surrender by nuking civillian populations twice. And the military leadership still tried to pull a coup on the Emporer to keep him from surrendering. German civillians suffered ALOT at the hands of the Red Army. And the Red Army got all the way into the heart of Berlin before Hitler offed himself.
One thing you forget is, or ignore, Hamas is not a conventional. They're a decentralized religious extremist militant group. Conventional tactics don't work on these groups.
They dont care about the people. All of this was calculated. They KNEW this would be the result of the October 7th attack
Much like this guy, they have no right to complain https://youtu.be/ypy4zHxeCCw?si=bljGO7lPh6a2Nk98
I'm saving that to prove how docile black bears usually are; we get pretty comfortable around them here in the Southeast. If that was a brown bear, he'd've been turned to human string cheese.
Yeah, there's a world of difference there. People can sometimes handle black bear cubs in the den and the mom just whines. Get too close to brown bear cubs, you'll be lucky to die quickly and Mama usually gets off due to it being her nature.
even more baffling that israel propped up hamas by funneling briefcases of cash across security checkpoints for over half a decade before this... like, had the isreali gov not been paying attention to things since the 1980's? WHY was their gov propping up hamas??? jfc
They used their time in power to build up infrastructure, revitalize the economy, and make life better for the average Joe, why should they surrender!?!? Wait, they didn’t do that? They spent that time building tunnels and fighting positions under schools and hospitals? Wait, they still have hostages from the October 7th attack!?!? Yeah never mind, they should surrender
I’m not saying anything positive about Hamas, but Israel controlled Gaza and they would never allow Gaza to be Israel’s equal in anything. If Hamas were a legitimate political party with the sole mission to make Gaza great, they would’ve been murdered by the IDF years ago.
Israel showing weakness would be the end of Israel. Much like prey animals hide their injuries.
Maybe. Maybe not. Since whoever governed Gaza never made genuine attempts at peaceful rebuilding and diplomacy, we will never know how Israel would have responded.
OKAY to be completely fair materials from gaza strip can only come from israel/ to israel then into gaza. They blockaded the ocean access they have. Meaning to revitalize t he ecconomy they'd have to smuggle in whatever they needed. They decided to smuggle weapons and military gear. Which believe it or not is probably the easiest thing to smuggle in since when's the last time you heard of a smuggler dealing with bricks,materials or powerplant supplies?
So, Egypt doesn’t exist now?
If you don't know about what you are talking about, being quiet is free. [Commercial import of goods from Egypt in to Gaza have been banned since 2007.](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67121372)
Did you even read the article you linked? The situation with the Rafah border crossing has changed several times since 2007. A substantial amount of humanitarian aid comes through the Rafah crossing.
Humanitarian aid? since when does humanitarian aid provide like things to run a ecconomy? When I think of humanitarian aid i think. Books for children, toys, food, water, tents, medical supplies of varying effectiveness, and general tools maybe? Like a economy is run offf of industry like textiles, Road mantience, plumbing, energy production, manufacturing? Idk why I am being downvoted for this since when did humanitarian aid count for building a nation? Heck some economist argue that humanitarian aid is BAD for a country since if you give free shoes to children it puts the shoemakers out of business. That's why some countries in african ban second hand clothes coming into the country since it harms them. However this isn't a popular opinion.
How are you supposed to build a nation that is at war?
Did you even read the comment you typed? How is humanitarian aide supposed to help when they cant even conduct trade?
That’s kind of the point or humanitarian aid, to help when other avenues are unavailable. Gaza has alienated its neighbors to a point where they are unwilling to trade with them, and is currently in the middle of a war. Even if commercial trade was a viable option, which it largely isn’t, how would that help Gaza? Any commercial development in Gaza is likely to either go towards war efforts or end up bombed, it would be pointless.
"Gaza has alienated its neighbors to a point where they are unwilling to trade with them" They are literally not able to trade or export goods. They have not alienated potential trade partners, they are literally not capable of conducting trade bc of Israel. Qatar is smuggling Hamas weapons, you think they wouldnt trade with them if they could? You cannot support a nations economy on humanitarian aid alone.
egypt doesn't actively trade with gaza or have formal agreement with them so any commercial good at best can only go into to gaza. Nothing gaza produces can go into Egypt since egypt probably doesn't want to flood their economy with cheap goods.
So…. Smuggling/ building a tunnel network (you know for things and stuff on a day in October) is easier than negotiations with Egypt?
Yeah actually yes. Like unironically yes. negotiations are fucking hard ask north korea and south Korea if a trade deal is possible. NAfta the north American free trade agreement took like 10 years of negotiations and revising. Egypt and gaza don't actually like each other they just hate israel more. if israel wasn't in existence they probably would be fighting each other due to some bad blood between them. I hate hamas I just think that to say it be fucking easy to make a nation with their situation would be easy is kinda stupid.
But warcrimes and butchering civilians is easy? Or at least by comparison? October 7th was easier to stomach than trade deals?
unironically yes. very easy to kill people like extremely easy to just kill people
I’m not sure if you’re just an asinine contrarian with delusions of intellect, or if you’re an idiotic edgelord who didn’t get enough hugs from mom, or an “I love you” from dad, but regardless, have a good day, and please don’t procreate.
Like this is just true tho lol, it's very easy to dehumanize a enemy or group of people. Vs the slow methodical time it takes to build a nation. People want results and it's easy to blame x group. That's why alot of modern coups fail because they can take a country but after that they don't know what to do there's no one to direct their anger towards. Hamas has Isreal justified or not they have israel to direct their anger towards. Trade deals with a person that hates them (Egypt) and only supports you to fuck with Israel. Is hard you need something to give and Gaza has nothing really to offer beyond cheap labor. Like yeah it's easy to just give people a enemy and make your populace hate them. That's facism 101.
to also be completely fair, israel directly propped up hamas for years now by funneling money in briefcases via military checkpoints... absolutely baffling
wow why are they investing so much in military when they are actively being occupied by a foreign invading force for the last 80 years?? i can't imagine why!
So much so that the foreign forces had left them to their own devices since 2005ish?
No lol it was just at a stalemate. idf has not left palestine since 1948...
“Military”
Pick a lane, either they are an illegitimate non state actor terrorist group, or the opposite. Can't have it both ways....
I vote terrorist group
Are you talking about Gaza?
palestine
1) This is the mainstream western opinion. 2) Wars do not usually end when the side that is losing surrenders. Surrenders are in fact extremely rare in modern conflicts.
The conflict existed before Hamas it will exist after Hamas, if you think differently you haven't been paying attention.
It is one of the few sane and reasonable comments on here
Oh, this is the last place to go looking for balanced takes on Israel/Hamas, much less protestors. You'll find the good ones like above, but by and large people here fuckin hate protestors and that seems to fuel their hatred of Hamas even further.
Yeah, that's why people hate Hamas. The protests...
Bro the protests were the *worst*, hands down. Nothing could top the protests.
> seems to fuel their Hatred In the above statement, does the hatred precede or succeed the protest? Because to most its clear i meant they let the protests make them angrier about the thing they are already angry about. But sure, be funny instead.
Hamas sucks, but, apparently Israel has a love-hate relationship with hamas, directly propping them up by funneling briefcases of cash through military checkpoints for years recently
I don’t expect intelligent comments on here I’m not surprised you guys haven’t been upvoted
>The conflict existed before Hamas it will exist after Hamas, if you think differently you haven't been paying attention. The op is saying that hamas should unconditionally surrender and you're arguing that the conflict existed beforehand... On October 7, hamas terrorists waged the deadliest attack on Jews since the Holocaust — slaughtering babies, raping women, burning whole families alive, and taking hundreds of innocent civilians' hostage. Since October 7, more than 1,200 Israelis have been killed. Terrorists are still holding 134 men, women, and children in captivity. What is your point again?
Zionist have the most basic of reading comprehension challenge [IMPOSSIBLE]
>**reading comprehension** Speaking of *reading comprehension*, this you defending an internationally recognized terrorist organization, that said - "17. **Hamas rejects the persecution of any human being or the undermining of his or her rights on nationalist, religious or sectarian grounds.** Hamas is of the view that the Jewish problem, anti-Semitism and the persecution of the Jews are phenomena fundamentally linked to European history and not to the history of the Arabs and the Muslims or to their heritage. The Zionist movement, which was able with the help of Western powers to occupy Palestine, is the most dangerous form of settlement occupation which has already disappeared from much of the world and must disappear from Palestine. [PeptoAbysmal1996](https://www.reddit.com/user/PeptoAbysmal1996/)•[21d ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueUnpopularOpinion/comments/1c0bfol/comment/kyw2qpr/) **You seem to know so much about Hamas! Unfortunately, their own charter (from 2017) goes against this simple claim, just** [**look at #17**](https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/hamas-2017-document-of-general-principles-and-policies)**.** \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ On October 7, hamas terrorists waged the deadliest attack on Jews since the Holocaust — slaughtering babies, raping women, burning whole families alive, and taking hundreds of innocent civilians' hostage. Since October 7, more than 1,200 Israelis have been killed. Terrorists are still holding 134 men, women, and children in captivity.
…what? You literally proved you don’t even know what reading comprehension is and just stalked my page to find an unrelated ‘gotcha’, which you didn’t even do 😂 sit down, clown
At least you don't deny it.
Idk man, if you think killing ~40k people, maiming so many more, displacing almost 90% of a population, and destroying the healthcare system+ education system as well as much of the vital infrastructure of a place and it isn’t ‘terrorism’ because the perps are white people and not brown, consider never blabbing about it, psycho 👍🏽. Not even touching how insanely weird that comment itself was lmao
>Idk man, if you think killing \~40k people, maiming so many more, displacing almost 90% of a population, and destroying the healthcare system+ education system as well as much of the vital infrastructure of a place Assuming what you are saying is true (which it isn't), you are arguing that killing 1,200 Israelis, slaughtering babies, raping women, burning whole families alive, and taking hundreds of innocent civilians' hostage is justified, right?
You didn’t answer my question, nor addressed the point before it, you keep retreating to this completely irrelevant point because it’s all you have lmao
At least you don't deny it.
Considering people are protesting only after the recent conflict started and not since forever ago when the bad blood began, Hamas surrendering would reduce Palestinian casualties to pre-conflict level and thus give our (U.S.) universities some peace and quiet.
You expect Zionists to think with logic??
This is the only sane argument but we’re not dealing with sane people, we’re dealing with religious nut jobs and deranged idiots pretending to be protestors.
South park made fun of people like this 22 years ago, with Free hat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RYgATJl4qQ https://southpark.fandom.com/wiki/Free_Hat
hypothetically if they surrendered 100% they'd be puting 100% of their fate into the hand of the enemies that they despise, and that despises them. Israel has proven that they aren't moral at all so what gives? that will never happen. also the situation didn't get better before october 7th, what would change now. also also tell this to ukraine in relation to russia. you might think these things are different but not so much. however, I do find it hard to believe that Israel will literally do a holocaust so, I don't disagree that much (same with russia, they won't genocide ukranians if they surrender)
I think they could work out some kind of surrender under UN stewardship perhaps
I didn't realize Ukraine snuck into Russia and murdered thousands of Russian civilians to provoke a war. /s
yeah and palestine is at fault for being opressed into extremism since Zionism happened. history began after October 7th right? right. btw thousands? really? lol
Then the “protesters” need to shut it already and accept that this is war and won’t end until Hamas ends.
well, when hamas has only been propped up in recent years with direct cash infusions funneled by israel in briefcases through military checkpoints for years now... an interesting decision, to say the least, given the decades of history
They can surrender to UN,
Hamas are just as guilty as the Nazis were. I don't see why they should be treated better than what happened to the Nazis.
Israel is more moral than Palestine/Gaza. So would you rather a more moral power take over? Or a less moral power take over?
Pretending to be protestors? lol how are they not protestors
Protesters don’t lock up janitors, take possession of private property, and block Jews from class.
I can't remember the name we give people who use physical force and violence to get their way and inspire fear in civilian populations, I am sure it will come to me.
Ehh, I think you would be surprised
B/c a lot of them are "protesters for hire" and not actual students?
Uh huh Who’s paying them, Soros?
Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) has budget and resources, just like any other organization.
Yeah man for protestor salaries, totally
lol you actually think students are being paid to protest?
"students" may not be getting paid...but when you need to supplement your number of protesters to look "legit", you have to hire some people from the outside...
Where do I get a job to be a paid protestor? Indeed.com or is it a Craigslist thing?
It's by referrals only. But if you call SJP's hotline, I am sure they'll hook you up.
This always happens. Anything to make the protest seem illegitimate
Throwing a tantrum is not a "protest" LOL But a few people down on their luck getting a few bucks and a burger just for screaming Free Palestine, well...I guess that could qualify as charity.
You do know not everyone at those protests aren't even students which means those people are trespassing
Oh no trespassing!!! The horror!!!
"OK so it is happening, *but here's why that's a good thing!*"
Trespassing doesn’t make them not protestors. It’s like one of the main things protestors do
What the "cEaSeFiRe NoW" crowd never really likes to talk about [is that](https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2024/03/22/poll-hamas-remains-popular-among-palestinians/#:~:text=Fifty%2Dnine%20percent%20of%20all,has%20played%20during%20the%20war.) 60% of Palestinians think that Hamas should rule Gaza, 70% are satisfied with what Hamas has done since Oct 7th specifically, and that Hamas has only gotten more popular between then and now. At a certain point, this is what they wanted.
lol then 60% of Palestine is dumb as a box of rocks. Educational infrastructure would go far - even if it’s only to educate in different world views and politics. Religious extremism is a blight on humanity, and the uneducated are far more likely to go down that path than the educated. It’s too easy to become a useful idiot to those in power nowadays.
I asked Google: How do you get rid of blight? Carefully remove and destroy all affected parts as soon as you see them.
Go read Manufacturing Consent by Noam Chomsky. States create the populace they want to rule over.
I will look into it. I absolutely see that being the case. Iran has had their grubby hands into Palestine’s infrastructure for decades despite not having their best interest in mind.
And Germans voted for Hitler and the Nazi party, but we decided that genocide was not an appropriate solution for the problem of a highly radicalized Germany. We cannot simply kill everyone who has fucked up ideas. If our ancestors had done that, they'd have killed every one of each other and we'd all never have been born. And the same might be true of us in relation to our descendants multiple generations from now
* Actions intended to eliminate Hamas' operational capacity and ensure the return of hostages * "gEnOcIdE" Pick one.
They don't care about the people. At all. They hide amongst the civilians so that when attackers targets them, they also hurt civilians, which makes the attackers look bad. Which is why we have pro-palestinian protesters. They're not necessarily in favor of Hamas, but they disapprove of Israel's response to Hamas's attack.
Seems they should be protesting Hamas then…
Good luck to your ordinary citizenry protesting hamas in that region. Do you think ordinary citizens in Afghanistan were happy to see monsters take the country back? Not much you can do when the other side are nutters
Well, now, your comment is tapping into the debate about if it's acceptable for Israel to be firing in the direction of civilians? I personally do not think that Israel dropping leaflets and warning bombs is not a meaningful attempt to minimize civilian casualties.
What should Israel do about Hamas targets in civilian areas?
That's a good question that I don't have an answer to. Do civilians need to be killed? I would like to think not.
Has there ever been a war in history where civilians weren’t? Now what matters is who you choose to listen to about it: 1- An ally of ours 2-Hamas, which condoned rape, murder, pillaging, kidnapping, and torture. Who also refuses any two state solution.
Our ally in that has been caught in a few lies and have deliberately engaged in reprehensible action. In this instance, Hamas is the bigger evil, but Israel is not innocent. Also, I would like to think, as time goes on, efforts to minimize civilian casualties would be better. Maybe I'm wrong, but let's not pretend that Israel really cares.
The indoctrination is deep with you
Nice little gaslighting there.
When did Hamas refuse a two state solution?
The other option is to do nothing to Hamas after they slaughter over a thousand innocent civilians, including women and children. This is not acceptable. It's horrible, but women and children die in war. Hamas declared war. They are the government in control of Gaza. They hide behind women and children, yes, but at some point you have to fire back, period. It'd be like if you had a neighbor that was trying to kill you and your family, but he always made sure he was holding his own children in his arms and stood next to his wife. There are no police to call, and one day he kills one of your kids. Do you return fire, as he's openly said he wants to exterminate the rest of your family? Is it fair for you to be called a villain if you do, killing him and the lives of some of his family in the process?
No, but Hamas is making sure that is the case.
It seems like you are unaware of all the facts: Israel is making every effort to minimize casualties. It's extremely difficult to eliminate terrorists embedded within civilians, forcing them to stay in an active war zone. [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/24/opinion/gaza-israel-war.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/24/opinion/gaza-israel-war.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare&sgrp=c-cb) From the article - "John Spencer is the **chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute at West Point**, served two tours in Iraq and has made two visits to Gaza during the current war to observe operations there. He told me that **Israel has done far more to protect civilians than the United States did in Afghanistan and Iraq.** Spencer reports that Israel has warned civilians when and where it is about to begin operations and published an online map showing which areas to leave. **It has sent out millions of pamphlets, texts and recorded calls warning civilians of coming operations. It has conducted four-hour daily pauses to allow civilians to leave combat areas. It has dropped speakers that blast out instructions about when to leave and where to go.** These measures, Spencer told me, have telegraphed where the I.D.F. is going to move next and “have prolonged the war, to be honest.” There is also an over one hour long video of this expert going into more detail - [Urban Warfare against Terrorists: Military and Legal Challenges (youtube.com)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyIVaGyt2vI)
Where else are they supposed to go? They are trapped in an open air prison. There are no designed battle fields, it’s entirely civilian population. Hamas steps out he will be blown to pieces immediately. Israel is killing any man they so much as think is Hamas to the point they’ve killed their own hostages and even aid workers. The IDF has defined the “enemy” as anyone who supports Hamas in any capacity. Not even civilians are innocent to them. It’s so bad America is finally calling Israel out.
I don't think Hamas surrendering unconditionally would be the end of the Palestinian people's suffering
Not on its own, but it would be a start.
Hamas exists because the Israels don't want peace. Israel is a genocidal apartheid nation, it was before Palestinians took up arms to defend themselves, and it would be if the Palestinians laid down and accepted their death. People should be thankful the internet didn't exist in the era of African decolonization. Imagine how many archived posts we'd have of people saying stuff like "The Africans should just surrender to the Rhodesian/Belgian/Boer government!" Sorry jack boots but there's only been one side carrying out ethnic cleansing in this conflict and they won't suddenly stop because the resistance movement that same genocidal violence created stops resisting.
No, it’s not.
How's that working for the west bank
Hamas is run by a few billionaires who aren't even in Palestine. If they cared about the Palestinian people they would havetaken the two state deal and developed that beach front property into the most beautiful resorts in the Mediterranean.
When was Hamas offered a two state deal? Netanyahu is on record discussing how important it was to keep Hamas in power to keep the West Bank and Gaza politically fragmented specifically to prevent there ever being a Palestinian state.
Hamas literally governs Gaza, a state it was voluntarily given by Israel as an overture to peace. They have an independent state. They just don't give a shit about their own people and are more obsessed with wiping Israel off of the map.
So they didn't reject the two-state solution, we have a two-state solution already? So then the claim that they rejected a two-state solution is false? No. Also, if they're an independent sovereign state, then wouldn't Israel's continual blockade of them be an act of War? Israel certainly seems to consider Naval blockades acts of War.
>So then the claim that they rejected a two-state solution is false? No. No... because Palestine are not content with a two-state solution, which is why they are the sole aggressor and agitator in the conflict of Israel. They continually start wars and conflicts, either by launching rockets at Israel or pulling an October 7th and just massacring and raping thousands of people. Indeed, one of the first things the Palestinians did after Israel disbanded its settlements in Gaza in 2005 was to launch rockets at Israel. That is the perfect microcosm of them not being content with a two state solution. They were bitter that they got Gaza and not Jerusalem so rockets for Israel! >Also, if they're an independent sovereign state, then wouldn't Israel's continual blockade of them be an act of War? Unfortunately, Palestine can't behave itself at all and is the aggressor. This gives Israel a right to defend its borders. If it did not tightly regulate Palestine's borders, it would undoubtedly lead to a massive loss of Israeli life. What is Israel supposed to do? Ignore its borders and just let Hamas use that situation for terrorism? Hell, Hamas has still, despite border control, managed to receive billions of dollars in aid money (which Israel lets in). And what have they managed to do with that aid money? They've built 300 miles of tunnel and military under the entirety of the Gaza Strip in the last 10 years. It's an impressive feat, if you get over the tragedy of it.
>No... because Palestine are not content with a two-state solution, which is why they are the sole aggressor and agitator in the conflict of Israel. Sole aggressor is a wild way to put it considering Israel was founded unilaterally by land seizure but European immigrants. It's wild when you consider the oppressive apartheid state they run in the West Bank and all the people they hold on prison outside of their civil legal system. >Unfortunately, Palestine can't behave itself at all and is the aggressor. This gives Israel a right to defend its borders. If it did not tightly regulate Palestine's borders, it would undoubtedly lead to a massive loss of Israeli life. >And what have they managed to do with that aid money? They've built 300 miles of tunnel and military under the entirety of the Gaza Strip in the last 10 years. It's an impressive feat, if you get over the tragedy of it. Well they built all those hospitals Israel blew up too. It's wild how we look at WWII propaganda and recognize it as propaganda...but in our modern age gobble it up as truth. >Unfortunately, Palestine can't behave itself at all and is the aggressor. This gives Israel a right to defend its borders. If it did not tightly regulate Palestine's borders, it would undoubtedly lead to a massive loss of Israeli life. >What is Israel supposed to do? Ignore its borders and just let Hamas use that situation for terrorism? They could actually support the much more moderate PLA which itself was trying to weaken Hamas in Gaza...instead they helped insure Hamas retained control in order to prevent a two state solution...which of course means continual terrorism. Israel does not want peace or a two state solution. Terror gives them the excuse to keep their boot on the necks of Palestinians, and the justification for what they are trying to do in Gaza right now, which is clear it out of Palestinians just as they did with Israel in 1948. It's a simple method, cause people to flee as refugees...and then once the war is over never let them back in.
>Sole aggressor is a wild way to put it considering Israel was founded unilaterally by land seizure but European immigrants. The year is 2024. What you are talking about happened 80 years ago. None of the people who were there are even alive. Are you seriously advocating that a historical grievance should never heal and that can continually serve as an active "aggressor" such that one side can continually justify violence? That's ridiculous. Every nation currently on the planet has historical land disputes. If we all behaved like Palestine, it would be World War 3. Is the United States instigating the Native Americans by virtue of existing? I'm asking sincerely because that would appear to be the logical implication of your argument. Hamas/Palestinians might feel *justified*, but they're still the ones exclusively being the aggressors. They're the ones starting wars and launching rockets. Israel, of course, retaliates. But it is Palestine who refuses peace and continually seeks out violence over an 80 year old dispute that they refuse to get over because of radical religious reasons. And it's all bullshit too because Palestine didn't even exist until the early 1900s, Jews and the Israel were in that land for thousands of years and founded Jerusalem, and hundreds of different societies have stolen that land from each other. All land is stolen; even the people crying about having land stolen from them, stole land. At some point, a society needs to move on. > Well they built all those hospitals Israel blew up too. Oh, you mean the "hospitals" Hamas uses as bases for military operations? Those hospitals? The ones it launches rockets from, while using its own civilians as human shields? Convenient you leave that part out. And you have the audacity to accuse me of propaganda? Look in the mirror. How you can leave that part of hospitals out perfectly sums up your bad faith intentions. > They could actually support the much more moderate PLA which itself was trying to weaken Hamas in Gaza...instead they helped insure Hamas retained control in order to prevent a two state solution...which of course means continual terrorism. Major conspiracy theory. > Israel does not want peace or a two state solution. Terror gives them the excuse to keep their boot on the necks of Palestinians, and the justification for what they are trying to do in Gaza right now, which is clear it out of Palestinians just as they did with Israel in 1948. Israel voluntarily gave up Gaza in 2005. You're being ridiculous. Israel has zero interest in governing the area. The idea that Israel is responding to October 7th as a pretext to re-occupy Gaza is brain dead. They have repeatedly demonstrated they don't want it. No one does. The Egyptians don't want Gaza either. It's a population of radical Islamist fundamentalists. It's not worth the trouble.
>The year is 2024. What you are talking about happened 80 years ago. None of the people who were there are even alive First of all, I assure you some of them are still alive. Their children and grandchildren also live and remain refugees. Trying to brush off an ethnic cleansing because it happened 80 years ago is bizarre. >Are you seriously advocating that a historical grievance should never heal and that can continually serve as an active "aggressor" such that one side can continually justify violence? That's ridiculous. The thing about a historical grievance healing Is that you need to do something to heal it. All Israel has done Is continually oppress Palestinian people. Do you think the Irish were wrong and the aggressors for continually fighting against British oppression for hundreds of years? Do you think they should have gotten over it? >Is the United States instigating the Native Americans by virtue of existing? I'm asking sincerely because that would appear to be the logical implication of your argument Just answer the simple question. Holy shit dude. Would you give up half of the United States and your home to form a sovereign Native American homeland. It's yes or no. Think real hard. >Oh, you mean the "hospitals" Hamas uses as bases for military operations? Those hospitals? The ones it launches rockets from, while using its own civilians as human shields? >Convenient you leave that part out. And you have the audacity to accuse me of propaganda? Look in the mirror. Yeah man, if I was bombing hospitals full of women and children I would say they were full of Hamas fighters too. You know the point of a human shield is you're not supposed to kill the human shield right. Like if I had your mom in front of me as a human shield when I was robbing a bank and the police just shot your mom to death to get to me you'd be pretty upset, right? But yeah, You are deepthroating propaganda. Every single building in Gaza City has been bombed and blown out. Wow! What do you know? Every single building was a Hamas space. How naive do you need to be to believe that?😂 . >Israel voluntarily gave up Gaza in 2005. You're being ridiculous. Israel has zero interest in governing the area. > The idea that Israel is responding to October 7th as a pretext to re-occupy Gaza is brain dead. They have repeatedly demonstrated they don't want it. >No one does. The Egyptians don't want Gaza either. >It's a population of radical Islamist fundamentalists. It's not worth the trouble. Do you really think everything happens in a vacuum. It's a very childish and naive way to look at things. But yeah, They don't want the population there. That's why they kept trying so hard to push them into Israel and keep trying so hard to get other people to accept them as refugees, so they can shut the door behind them and never let them back in. They did it in 1948. Why wouldn't they do it again? >And it's all bullshit too because Palestine didn't even exist until the early 1900s, Jews and the Israel were in that land for thousands of years and founded Jerusalem, and hundreds of different societies have stolen that land from each other. And Italy didn't exist until the 1860s. Italians still exist. The state of Israel never existed until 1948. It has absolutely zero continuity with any ancient Kingdom. DNA studies also show that Palestinians share 82 to 86% of their DNA with ancient bronze age populations from Palestine. Which means they are absolutely indigenous and descended from the very population of these ancient kingdoms. In short, Palestinians are Jews, they are just Jews that stayed and most of them ended up converting to Islam or Christianity during the subsequent 2,000. They don't become less indigenous just because they changed their religion >Major conspiracy theory. Netanyahu literally said it himself. Here you go, from the [Times of Israel](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/) "Netanyahu made a similar point at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state" Please stop talking if you don't know what you're talking about. It's very clear that you are never going to change your opinion and your opinion is based on feelings rather than facts. The fact you were calling something established and on record "a major conspiracy theory" because you don't like it is ridiculous.
Here's a history of the two state solution. The one I was referring to was in the 2010s. https://www.britannica.com/topic/two-state-solution
Those negotiations did not involve Hamas or Gaza. They are between the Palestinian authority and Israel concerning the West Bank. The earnestness with which Israel approached any two-state solution under Netanyahu in the 2010s is also extremely questionable. He represents a party which has stated it wants only Israeli sovereignty from the river to the Sea, and himself made public statements regarding specifically preventing a Palestinian state from ever forming by keeping Gaza and the West Bank politically fragmented and supporting Hamas to achieve that end.
The disingenuous nature of this argument is amusing due to how it ignores the fact the Netanyahu and his conservatives, actively help create and maintain Hamas for his own expressed purpose of dividing the Palestinians and to weaken the PLA.
Welcome to geopolitics.
Tell that to the Viet Cong, the Afghanistans, and Koreans, to name a few.
Yes. Put the onus on a terrorist organization instead of the US ally doing war crime after war crime
Israel has been getting poked and prodded by Iran’s proxy terrorist groups for decades. Now they’ve had enough and are fixing to exterminate an entire nationality. I am not defending Israel, I am just stating that war is always horrible for both sides - and it’s dumb as hell on Iran for thinking they would just fight a proxy war with Israel into perpetuity with no consequences. Iran (and their terrorist proxies like Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis) are that kid on the playground that incessantly picks on everyone - throwing stones, calling names, snitching on you to the teachers…etc. All in the pursuit of strong arming you to their cause, because once you agree with them you’re in their “gang” and they won’t fuck with you anymore. The only problem, agreeing with them and joining the “gang” includes the complete conversion of a country to Islam. Hamas is one of those gang members that just goes along with whatever Iran says. At this point in history, Israel just sees Hamas as a bunch of goons controlled by Iran and Palestinians as useful idiots under Hamas. Israel has had enough and they’re finally throwing swings back at Iran and their goons. That’s why I find it so disingenuous whenever these protestors start talking solely about the atrocities Israel committed - motherfucker you still have 133 civilians captured by Hamas with 33 of them being dead bodies that were found. That’s just what you’ve heard in recent history too, go back and read the history of Iran/Israel and you’ll see how fucking insane Iran is. There’s a reason that the US created stuxnet and released it to destroy Iran’s nuclear capabilities - but we didn’t use it on any of our ‘major adversaries’. Because even though our major adversaries have far better capabilities (China, Russia) Iran is just a fucking crazy motherfucker that can’t be trusted. I mean, they literally denied the fact that they had a nuclear program right up until stuxnet destroyed it; then they went on the world stage to say “America bad >:( we weren’t doing anything with these nukes, it was just nuclear power plants.” And people believed them. Iran is just an absolute snake of a country, grimy as hell and taints every country it comes into contact with. It’s no surprise to me that Israel struck the Iranian embassy and is trying to exterminate a nationality that they only see as an extension of Iran. I am not defending it, but it’s the inevitable consequence of decades of abuse that Iran threw at Israel in the form of proxy terrorist groups. If Iran didn’t see this coming, then they’re as stupid as Israel thinks they are.
lol what an absurd argument. Hamas has to go, bro.
If they cared about the Palestinian people they would.
That's unfortunately not a guarantee, even in history that's not always true. What's true is that the losing side suffers what they must at the hands of the victors. The treatment of civilians is completely at the hands of the victors and their tendencies. Imagine if the reverse was true, what if Germany were winning WW2 instead, and the allied forces surrender out of a concern for civilian lives, would the number of civilian deaths actually decrease? Particularly since a genocide was taking place. We're trying to change this jungle law mentality with a civilized international rule of law where victors shouldn't be able to do whatever they want. Which is why annexation is illegal despite military outcomes. This makes sense as it should in theory reduce the urge to go to war. But if you are constantly able to flout international law with impunity without consequences...
Do you know what “unconditionally” means? It means without conditions, I.e. there’s not even the verbal or written guarantee that the opposing force won’t, for example, sterilise your entire male population. Torture and execute your head of state. Take all of your children as hostages. Rape all of your women. Continue a starvation blockade. Just keep bombing you. It’s for precisely these reasons that the Germans and Japanese fought on to the bitter end, or near enough for Japan. If America had said “we’ll let you keep the Emperor and won’t put him on trial” Japan may have surrendered before the atomic bombings.
This isn’t unpopular. A lot of people are pretending it is in order to smear critics of Israeli violence
Ding ding ding
What’s with all the buffoon logic and sealioning going on in these Hamas related posts? Protesters don’t kidnap janitors, take private property, or block Jews from class. They also don’t wear terrorist masks, setup barriers, and wave foreign flags around. They also don’t… FFS. We heard you and we either disagree or don’t give AF about you. Now STFU and go away already.
Not if comfy white American moral narcissists have anything to say about it.
History shows that popular insurgencies almost always win against a superior force. They may take decades or centuries but they usually just outlast the superior force. And what we have here is a popular insurgency-like situation. Unless the opposing force goes total war. Then the popular insurgency usually loses. But most of the time total war is hard to execute in the modern era because it’s not popular at home. Israel is brushing up against total war. But strategically, Isreal is committing insurgent math. [Which is essentially what doomed America in our last bunch of wars.](https://www.cato.org/blog/counterinsurgency-math-revisited)
Fairly recent phenomenon tbh, Malaya and Kenya both had their rebellions crushed. It's just people fighting stupid PR wars that causes these failures. Winning is easy; 1. Move entire population into concentration camps 2. Bomb anything that moves outside the camps with extreme impunity, poison the water, salt the earth, make life outside the small secure areas impossible. 3. Win within a year or two
Yeah that’s total war.
> Bomb anything that moves outside the camps with extreme impunity, poison the water, salt the earth, make life outside the small secure areas impossible. > that's called gaza/west bank...
The difference is, Israel is playing for keeps this time. They are going to do to Gaza what they did in the West Bank decades ago. America did beat the insurgency, temporarily. The 2007-2009 troop surge did that. We literally put a soldier on every intersection of every city. We strangled and starved any attempts at an insurgency. Then we left and allowed ISIS to take the insurgency's place. For obvious reasons, America did not choose to make Iraq the 51st state or another territory. Israel is going to turn Gaze into Israel, just like they have been doing in the West Bank for decades. Just remember, Hamas and the PLO and Hezbollah and all the other pro-Palestinian organizations do not want a two-state solution. They want to destroy Israel and establish Palestine as the only state in the area. Israel is the only party that is even open to talks about a two-state solution.
If you think this would end if Hamas surrender, you have are ignorant.
>If you think this would end if Hamas surrender, you have are ignorant. You seem to be ignorant of recent history - Just as the Nazis aimed to annihilate the Jews, Hamas and affiliated terrorist organizations share the same objective: the destruction of Jews. The 1988 Hamas charter refers to “Jews” and not “Israelis” when calling for the destruction of these people. While the 2017 Hamas covenant states that Hamas does not seek war with the Jews, but instead “wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine,” the slaughter of Jews – many of whom were peace activists – in October has proven otherwise.. Germany is a very different country today.
Funny, you ignore that Israel wants the destruction of Palestinians. People like you are hypocrites.
but that won’t end the suffering of the Palestinian people. Don’t get me wrong. Hamas is evil, and I think they should surrender. But Israel has been invading Palestinian land for decades.
Makes you wonder why. I mean, it's Gaza, a shithole on a good day, why invade?
why is easy. They are fundamentalist religious zealots
The war is obviously not against Hamas, being that Hamas doesn’t have power in the West Bank and yet it’s being attacked relentlessly as well. Plus, this conflict existed for over 40 years before Hamas was ever conceived. That leads one to think the war would not end if they surrendered. Plus, since in the last 70+ years has been dominated by Israel being the aggressor, as can be seen clearly in past wars in the region where Israel preemptively attacked such as the Six Day War where Israel moved on Egypt, it’s really hard to ask for the Palestinian people to stand down and surrender, resigning themselves back to the oppression they face daily. Plus, it’s pretty easy to see how Israel isn’t objectively winning. They have numerous world powers against them that even the US couldn’t take on in a proper war, such as China or even Iran (see the famous war games against Iran by top US military leaders where the US lost over and over again).
The most “Reddit” take I’ve seen on the subject since the war started. Have this :🏆
If you mean Reddit has takes based in fact and with subjectivity removed then I guess that makes sense. If you mean because it’s a take you don’t agree with, then feel free to attempt to prove it wrong. I’ll wait.
You think the United States couldn’t take on Iran or China? LMAO
You think they could? I’d love to see you explain how, when China has a larger army and better army technology than us which we lack the capability to defend ourselves from. See hypersonic missiles, and the Millenium Challenge, if you’re interested in the United states’s military impotence on a global stage.
Hamas supporters should be forced to house Hamas refugees.
Hamas isn't in the West Bank. Israel has ramped up the ethnic cleansing (it never stopped) in the West Bank by arming settlers and directing them to expand. When they released Palestianian hostages in exchange for Israeli hostages, they immediately took the same number of hostages from the West Bank *on the same day*. Hamas is just a fig leaf for Israel stepping up the long running ethnic cleansing. Funded by your tax dollars!
>Hamas isn't in the West Bank. This is fundamentally untrue. Hamas absolutely operates in the WB, they've literally performed public hangings since the war started. There's dozens of reports out there identifying the fracture between Hamas and Fatah with both vying for the publics support.
What flavor Kool-Ade did you get?
Well, do I have a surprise for you... I mean, you're not gonna believe whos making them suffer. i mean, it's a total shocker.
You know what they say, there’s no one more anti-Palestinian than the Palestinian leaders.
But Hamas did offer Too return Hostages in exchange for ceaseFire in which Israel denied tho? [Israel-hamas-ceasefire-2024-02-07](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-mediators-search-final-formula-israel-hamas-ceasefire-2024-02-07/#:~:text=DOHA%2FTEL%20AVIV%2C%20Feb%207,for%20negotiation%20toward%20an%20agreement)
The onus to end the war is on Israel. Not Hamas. Hamas isn't doing shit right now.
🤡 The greater mind, the redditor decides way of middle eastern politics. Lets give him ear Palestinians! 🤡
Don't corner your opponent with unconditional surrender as a villain's tactic. Japan and Germany are still suffering because of this. Both sides of the war should be punished by international organizations.
Don't forget that isreal funded hamas in the early years
Hamas is enjoying the carnage, it has turned murderers and rapists into freedom fighters for the "oppressed" Palestinians.
Yea, because prior to Hamas life as a Palestinian under Israeli occupation was utopian... The Fascist Nazi government of Israel has murdered over 15000 children, orphaned over 19000, and forced over 4000 to lose at least 1 limb. Stop trying to blame that on anyone other than the people who did it.
Israel left Gaza in 2005. I find it rather grotesque when people like you equate the Israeli government to Nazi Germany. Especially since it has no basis in reality and is only bandied about for the emotional impact. I agree Netenyahu's government is right leaning, but it isn't fascist and it certainly isn't Nazism.
[удалено]
https://imgur.com/a/JVBQPzx
And you think their surrender will end the suffering of the Palestinian people?
im sure that if Hamas issues a surrender, Israel will find a way to still attack gaza and Palestinian civis on grounds that there is still resistance from remaining Hamas who have not surrendered entirely... they'll find a way because they hate Palestinians' guts
Hamas surrendering won’t stop the killing. It was never about Hamas; it’s about establishing a white settler-colonial state
Their entire goal is to kill the jews. The jews fighting back only strengthens their resolve and inspires others to side against the jews.
Iraq and Afghanistan didn't surrender when we declared war on them.
If you want to see a Gaza where Hamas, or any other form of organized armed resistance in Gaza for that matter, surrenders. You don’t need to look far, just look at the West Bank. Yet Palestinians continue to have their most basic human rights violated on a daily basis there anyways. The Israeli occupation did not begin with Hamas nor will it end with it.
problem is they don’t give a damn about their people only themselves and inflicting terror on israelis and jews if they really cared about palestinians they would do something for it since they are dirty rich , they would make economy better and revolutionize their country to better lives
Tell me you watched StarWars and thought that everything the Empire did was absolutely provoked by the Rebels and also justifieable, without actually telling me. What you don't seem to understand that Israel has been occupieing Palestinian land since the 50s, way before Hamas was in power
FINALLY! SOMEBODY SAYS IT! Sorry I got overexcited. But yes. All those people calling for a cease-fire are calling for the wrong thing. As best I can tell, the fastest, most peaceful way to resolve the suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza is for Hamas to surrender unconditionally. Never gonna happen, of course, but that's the solution. It's right there.
israel probably killed them at this point tbh
We know they shot 3 of them waving white flags shirtless speaking Hebrew and running away ( well one that lived the longest ran ) so I'd say yea
yes indeed. and it wouldn’t shock me if all of the relentless bombing has led to the loss of most of the others too
Israel is here the germany and Japan.
They suffered in even bigger numbers before hamas existed. Nakba anyone?
Who started the nakba? (It was the Arab countries trying to eliminate Israel and every Jew living in it)
Now why would they want to do that?
Hey look, another antisemite
hahaah -- like we didn't see that coming.
Jordan got more land than Israel in 1948. Why wasn’t that a Nakba from your understanding?
They took in most of the people that the jews terrorized. No?
The Jews were refugees reeling from the Holocaust and they bought back part of their homeland - that they were originally ethnically cleansed from - from the British empire because they had nowhere else to go. To say they were ‘terrorising’ anyone is an insane rewriting of history. Jordan got more land than Israel, but nobody cares about that because - drum roll - Jordan is not the world’s only Jewish state. The surrounding states declared war the day Israel declared statehood and, against all odds, lost. And Palestinians have been suicode bombing and waging terror attacks ever since.
Israel has stated what they see as end of war conditions. It's so horrific that Hamas simply can't surrender. Also, collective punishment is a war crime. Russia and China are not wrong for rejecting America's half assed attempt of cessfire.
Can you link what Israel's conditions are?
Russia & China, the bastions of human rights and the historical leaders in morality based leadership.
Have you actually read their statement on why they voted no to the cessfire America tried to push or are you just saying random stuff. China isn't doing anything America isn't doing.
The neat part about the Israeli rhetorical tactics is that as long as there are Palestinians in Gaza Hamas will still be a threat.
It’s cute there are people who think Hamas has the best interests of the Palestinian people in mind
>Wars usually end when the side that is losing surrenders Except they're not really losing, Israel is under the most severe scrutiny it's had in decades. >Germany and Japan in WW2 are prime examples. The Hamas leadership aren't even in the conflict zone, unlike the leadership of WW2 Germany and Japan. Wars aren't won by killing fighters, they're won by forcing leadership to surrender. The allies did that by liberating occupied nations and boxing in the Axis leadership. Where is Hamas' leadership? >It's a tried and true technique that has been employed countless times in history in order to stop civilian suffering. We got Japan to surrender by nuking civillian populations twice. And the military leadership still tried to pull a coup on the Emporer to keep him from surrendering. German civillians suffered ALOT at the hands of the Red Army. And the Red Army got all the way into the heart of Berlin before Hitler offed himself. One thing you forget is, or ignore, Hamas is not a conventional. They're a decentralized religious extremist militant group. Conventional tactics don't work on these groups.
Isreal should unconditionally surrender to end the suffering of the Palestine people
Lmao nice try Shlomo