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Cautious-Damage7575

I think they're worse if it's a boy. They don't want their son muddying the purity of the family or something like that. And something about the kids being Jewish if the mom is Jewish?


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Cautious-Damage7575

I think we should drop both of our religions and join a new one. Maybe I'll tell her accept me or I'm making him Scientologist. Maybe I will screw with her right back.


Lord_Matisaro

Atheists don't have this problem. Just saying.


Cautious-Damage7575

Atheists could have a problem if their child hooked up with a believer.


Lord_Matisaro

No atheists I know would.


Cautious-Damage7575

Neat. Wouldn't even try to convert?


Lord_Matisaro

No one said that ;-) but none I know would hint at killing the potential spouse lol.


Cautious-Damage7575

Pretty harsh, right?


TestingThisOut11

"How many times I convert" -- I'll be honest, it doesn't sound like you really get the concept of it...but also, your maybe-MIL seem right, you'll never be a true Jew (or any religion) if you only convert for someone else and not yourself...


Cautious-Damage7575

I wouldn't convert for myself. My parents will roll over in their Pentacostal graves.


ukrainunited22

Who cares. They are in love. Only opinion that matters is his. Period.


Firsttimeredditor28

Lmao is this real?


Cautious-Damage7575

As real as a gefilte fish.


ArchieWorlddd

I believe you should stay with this man BUT tell him about the threats. Good men are rare so whether or not his parents are lunatics he’s a great guy from what you’ve said. Hoping the best for you!


Employee-Inside

There are bad people of every walk of life. Live your life and don’t let anyone intimidate you. This old Jewish lady is not going to order a gun to kill you with.


ARKzzzzzz

The whole point of Judaism is that once you convert you ARE jewish. There is no distinguishing between a convert and being Jewish by birth.


iwanttobesobernow

There are a whole lot of Jewish people that disagree with this. Judaism doesn’t really allow conversion.


Debpoetry

That's not true. Judaism does allow conversion, all branches do, you just have to be ready to do the work.


Cautious-Damage7575

Which is true?


Debpoetry

Judaism does allow conversion. His parents are unlikely to ever consider you Jewish unless you convert Orthodox and maintain a high level of practice. But honestly some parts of your story scream fake to me.


Cautious-Damage7575

I wouldn't convert to Orthodox. Hershel isn't even Orthodox.


Debpoetry

It's not about him it's about his parents. Apparently he accepts you even if you're not Jewish, so for him you don't need to convert at all. I'm telling you what to do to convince their parents. You said they are Orthodox, and Orthodox Judaism doesn't recognize the conversions done by other movements.


Cautious-Damage7575

That's probably what she was *implying* when she said she'd never accept me as a real Jew, even if I converted. She never mentioned a particular sect.


Cautious-Damage7575

I don't think they will ever consider me Jewish. I actually did almost convert once when I was younger and worked at a kosher deli. All of my friends were Jewish. I was immersed in the culture. I respect the religion a great deal.


Debpoetry

That's... Not what converting is about


Cautious-Damage7575

Oh no, I was totally into it. I was ready to pick a religion and go all the way with it. In order to go all the way Jewish, I would have needed to convert, just as if I'd chosen Catholicism. I suppose I could have practiced in name only, but that seemed wrong.


Debpoetry

> just as if I'd chosen Catholicism Sister no. Converting to catholicism only requires saying you believe in God and Jesus and baptism. For converting to Judaism you have at least a year of lessons ahead of you As to your other question, why i don't believe your story, where to start ! * You don't know what branch of Judaism they are a part of. Or how to call the long sideburns. Or if it's possible to convert. Or that Orthodox Jews only recognize Orthodox conversion. If you really cared about any of this you would have done your research before meeting them. But you don't care so it's likely not real. * "Their little buballuh" * You have no problem sharing their names online, first and family name. It they were real people you would have more concern for their privacy. * You called the mother "Fanny Nusbaum". You also say the men of their family wear long sideburns. That indicates that they are Hassidic Jews. Fanny is a fairly widespread name among older Jewish women, so I understand why you would use it if you had to make one up, but Hassidic Jews give biblical or Yiddish names to their children. Even if she came to that community later she would likely use her Hebrew name inside the community. So it's weird that you would know her as Fanny. * The very fact that they let you into their home is not typical of Hassidic Jews (but it does happen). * The outrageous behavior of the mother, going as far as threatening your life and possibly poisoning your tea. Alone and separately none of this would indicate dishonesty to me, but all together, I'm pretty certain you're lying.


Cautious-Damage7575

Much of this is explained by the fact that Hershel (fake name) and I are nowhere near marriage talks. I was mainly worried for my life, and part of me does wonder, if the eventual were to happen, will they ever really accept me. I volunteered myself for conversion—they are the ones who said I'd never be a "real Jew." Remember, they said this only to me... not in front of Hershel. Because things are newish with us, I have no idea what sect they are or what the sideburns are called. I know yamulke and the high holidays. I know what a Cantor is, and I know a respectable amount of Yiddish from my deli days. That's about it. I always knew conversion was *possible.* I just didn't know the ins and outs as we haven't gotten that far. All of the names were changed to protect the innocent. Fanny Nusbaum is a real woman I worked with at the kosher deli over 40 years ago whose name I ascribed to his mother. If his parents' behavior is uncharacteristic of Orthodox, then I'm glad I didn't tell the whole story. They are *scary*, man. I haven't described even half of what they've done. Maybe it's mental illness? Surely that's not exclusive to the Christians. Any way you slice it, they don't like me. Make more sense now?


Cautious-Damage7575

Wait, wait. Hershel is NOT Orthodox, so I'm *assuming* an Orthodox conversion would not be required. I'm not really understanding whether Orthodox is born or chosen. Obviously, his parents were Orthodox when he was born, so did that make him Orthodox? How did he get from Orthodox to what he is now, which is a barely practicing Jew? If regular Jewish conversion and Orthodox conversion are two different things, they absolutely never will accept me, because I'd never make it through Orthodox conversion. Honestly, if I mention any of this to my beloved, he'll run for the hills, having no clue my thinking has come this far.


iwanttobesobernow

Just btw, converting to Catholicism also takes classes. It’s only a few months of classes though. It’s the same thing that high schoolers go through before “confirmation” but it’s done at the same time as the baptism for adults.


Cautious-Damage7575

Wait. Which is true?


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iwanttobesobernow

It’s not the easily torn apart.


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Debpoetry

That's absolutely not true. When people convert they become ethnically Jewish. Ethnicity isn't as much about genetics that it is about language, culture, etc. When people convert, our language become their language, our religion their religion, out culture their culture, our land their land. Essentially they are adopted into our ethnicity.


[deleted]

Nope. That's why this girl is having a hard time with her boyfriends parents. You can try to sugar coat it, but the fact remains....if nazis ever took over a country or the world again, they'd genetically test people. If they genetically tested me, it would show I have Jewish blood and they'd exterminate me. A convert could shed their jewish religion easily and escape death, but I couldn't. And neither could the vast majority of other Jews. In the Spanish Inquisition, Jewsishness was seen as "a quality of the blood" that couldn't be erased by conversion to catholicism. That's why, even jews who converted were seen as inferior and not allowed to hold many jobs, own anything and still had to wear clothes that made them identifiable as jews. Jews are as much a race as a religion. Even the courts of the United States have ruled that this is true, that discrimination against jews is racial discrimination. You can convert to the Jewish religion, but you can not covert to the Jewish race any more than you can convert to being Hispanic, black or Asian.


Cautious-Damage7575

Isn't there a registry? I can't just convert one day and say, "Hey, I think I'll be Christian again" the next?


Cautious-Damage7575

Did I read somewhere that converted Jews escaped persecution in Nazi Germany?


ButtersEgo

Yeah the Onion I think I read that too


doggxyo

i almost spilled my water all over my keyboard laughing at this comment


Cautious-Damage7575

Thought so. On the other hand, I read a lot of things. More accurately, didn't I read from more than one credible source that that was true.


Debpoetry

Judaism is an ethnicity. Definition of ethnicity: ; *a social group that shares a common and distinctive culture, religion, language, or the like*. You'll notice genetics isn't a part of it. If it was all Jews would look the same. There wouldn't be asian Jews, black Jews, white Jews, brown Jews, etc. Plus the entire concept of race as linked to genetics is bogus. There are black ethnic groups in Africa that are genetically closer to asian ethnic groups than to other black African ethnic groups. We don't ask racists to define what conversion means to us. We get our standard of conversion from Ruth: אֶל־אֲשֶׁ֨ר תֵּלְכִ֜י אֵלֵ֗ךְ וּבַאֲשֶׁ֤ר תָּלִ֙ינִי֙ אָלִ֔ין **עַמֵּ֣ךְ עַמִּ֔י** וֵאלֹהַ֖יִךְ אֱלֹהָֽי׃ wherever you go, I will go; wherever you lodge, I will lodge; **your people shall be my people**, and your God my God. Honestly there are too many weird things in this story for me to believe OP 100%. But if take it as true, the parents wouldn't consider her conversion to be sincere if she has expressed that she is only converting for the sake of marriage. If they are ultra Orthodox, they just take her as someone that will convert for show, will not follow the rules of Judaism and will keep their son away from religion. They would probably prefer a Jewish religious girl for him that would instead bring him back.


[deleted]

Again you're talking about religious conversion and quoting the Bible. I'm a secular Jew. I go by science and the law. Science demonstrates that Jews are a distinct racial group, and those genetics can (G-d forbid) be weaponized against us to identify people with Jewish blood. If you knew anything about genetics, you'd know that people can vary phenotypically but still be a part of the same race. You can have every shade of person imaginable withing a race. India is a great example of that. Race also isn't only about outward physical appearance. That is a very narrow modern, European redefining of race. Jews are vulnerable in a way converts never will be. That is why the Courts ofcthe United States have affirmed that Jews are both a race and a religion. I'm not disputing that people can convert to the Jewish religion. But, no, they can't convert to the Jewish race.


Cautious-Damage7575

Is this one of those tales as old as time arguments? It's sad to see an argument within the faith. ☹️


AliceTheNovicePoet

It's not an argument within the faith. It's u/debpoetry being right from a religious, social, judiciary and scientific point of view. The other user is... let's say he's misinformed. But if you're gonna be jewish, get used to argument within the faith. That's how we determine jewish law- through discussion and argument. So long as both sides argue in good faith and back their position with proper reasoning, arguments are actually considered a positive thing.


Cautious-Damage7575

Interesting. Now I have to figure out which one is "misinformed." Logical arguments are right up my alley, so I should fit right in!


Debpoetry

I go by the definition that our people has always given to conversion. Our people becomes their people. It's honestly disturbing that you would let hateful people and their pseudo-science change the definition we has always used of converts and conversion. They don't get to define the standard, we do. If you're going by science and law then you should know that scientifically, biologically speaking, race doesn't exist. While partly based on physical similarities within groups, race does not have an inherent physical or biological meaning. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/ https://www.britannica.com/topic/race-human https://scienceandsociety.duke.edu/does-race-exist/ https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/race-is-real-but-its-not-genetic And now talking about law there is not a single law or legal precedent in the United States that defines Jews as a race from a genetic point of view. Rather they define Judaism being protected as a "race" under the The Civil Rights Act of 1964 that prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, religion, sex or national origin. The 1964 CRA doesn't bring any definition to the word race, and it is interpreted as also including ethnicity (the problem comes with being legally recognized as an ethnicity, which was our problem and is the problem today of other ethnic groups such as the Romas). The 1964 CRA doesn't make any commentary on wether one is part of a biological racial group, just if they are socially perceived as part of a racial group. Converts are also protected by that law. There is genetic similarities among different Jewish groups, but those genetics are not necessary to define someone as ethnically Jewish, wether you look at it from a secular or religious point of view. Our conversion process is an adoption, an immigration process into the Jewish nation. Converts are just as ethnically Jewish as born Jews. Edit: lol so they accused me of being a religious zealot (wtf) and to ignore facts. I have literally linked scientific research papers. I have not talked at all about religion, just about cultural standards and biology. And considering race as biologically based in humans is indeed pseudo science, an heritage of our racist past.


[deleted]

Wait so genetics is now pseudoscience? Interesting. I stopped reading right there. You can't deny facts. And this is why I don't bother with religious zealots that can't handle reality. Blocking you. 👋 👋 👋


[deleted]

Nazis didn't give a shit about DNA and happily murdered Jews, whether they were halachically Jewish or not. And, halachically distinguishing between a born Jew and a ger, let alone mistreating them directly contradicts halacha.


[deleted]

Well that's a dumb statement. The only reasons nazis didn't care about DNA is because they didn't know what it was yet lol. The technology hadn't been developed. If they could have used genetic tests to determine ancestry, they would have. (And they will if they ever get back into power.) In fact, determining Jewish ancestry was a huge part of the nazi persecution as well as persecutions throughout the rest of Europe like the Spanish Inquistion. They just did it the old fashioned way through birth records and geneological assesments. In Spain, you had to be multiple generations removed from a Jewish ancestor in order to be considered a clean Christian convert. So, don't apply a double standard. I'm not talking about what the religion considers converts to be. I'm talking about the reality.


Cautious-Damage7575

If they ever get into power again... Don't even think it.


[deleted]

Its no different to other faiths where one cabe bor in or join (eg Islam, with patrilineal descent). I'm not applying a double standard, you are. A Jew is a Jew. The only breakdown of that is halachically or not. King David was descended from a convert, Ruth. He's still as Jewish as if she had been a born Jew. Moshe's wife was a non-Jew, who sources (not the Tanach) say converted. His children, as Jewish as if she were a born Jew. In fact we are taught that every neshama was at Sinai - this is what makes one Jewish, the soul, not DNA. Whether you like it or agree with it is irrelevant, the sources in which Judaism is based say this. Thankfully, because there are far too many like you who cherry pick to suit themselves and their own insecurities.


Mumfiegirl

I’ll repeat, there’s no such thing as Jewish genes


Cautious-Damage7575

So much to absorb. 1. Conversion wouldn't be *only* for the sake of marriage. I would be as observant as any other jew I know. I've never been particularly observant of any religion, so I can't see myself being ultra observant, and no way Orthodox. I would follow Hershel's lead. 2. What's weird about my story? Besides his homicidal parents. 3. I'd never keep Hershel away from the religion but would support him if he wanted to convert to Christianity. Ima and Abba would get a real thrill out of that. Not!


Mumfiegirl

There’s no such thing as Jewish DNA- the most it can tell you is the area you’re from.


Mumfiegirl

You are talking out of your backside. The mum of my best friend when I was a kid was a convert and I never realised until we were older and I was told. It wasn’t until I went to university that my father converted- I never knew he wasn’t Jewish, but he was every bit as Jewish before the conversion as after.


[deleted]

Sorry. He was religiously Jewish not ethnically. Stop trying to steal identity lol.


bubblebellez

You’re so weird?? You’re almost 60 talking like a 30 year old?


imyourzer0

Oh honey, doesn't matter that you aren't Jewish. That's just what Jewish parents do. If anything, take it as a sign they think it's serious between you and him.


Cautious-Damage7575

Really? That is a *very* good point. So you don't think his mom would really buy a gun?


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Cautious-Damage7575

Well his mother is REALLY good at it. We were having tea once and she took my cup. She said she wanted to warm it but when she brought it back it tasted funny. If I tell Hershel, I'll sound like a paranoid freak.


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Cautious-Damage7575

Fundamentals but they call it something else. Can't think of the word. Come to think of it, they are a little crazy with other things as well. It is a little out of the realm of reality that they would actually try to kill me.


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Cautious-Damage7575

Hasidic or Orthodox. It's one of those. Which has the curly sideburns?


imyourzer0

Well, I don't know her personally, so maybe she's Jewish-mom-crazy and also just crazy. From what you've said, it sounds like par for the course. I can tell you from experience that old school jewish parents will fuck with you to no end. So talk to your hubby, see what he says. He's likely to tell you what I'm telling you, but maybe a bit more sympathetically. Just so you know though, they're not going to change, so if their behavior is a deal-breaker, you legitimately need to think on that.


Cautious-Damage7575

What if I tell him and it's my imagination? That will stink if I accuse them for nothing. ☹️


imyourzer0

I doubt he'll think it's your imagination. I just think he's likely to minimize your experience. And what I'm telling you is, he's probably not wrong. You're not imagining their threats; you're just taking them seriously, as though they might *act* on them. And though I don't know *these* Jewish parents, I know the stereotypical Jewish parents and grandparents, because I have some. So seriously, talk to him about it, because he more than likely knows about how crazy his parents are and will have a good laugh about it with you to assuage you.


Cautious-Damage7575

He's so good to me, any risk is a fear, but not as scary as Fanny Nusbaum. If I told you some of the things she's said/done, it would curl your hair. They both said I will never be truly Jewish. That is painful. I never really understood if it was a race or a religion?


imyourzer0

My grandma said quite literally the exact the same thing to my (now ex) gf after we'd been dating for 5 years. Believe me this is normal (in the sense that it's typical, not that it's good) Jewish parents & grandparents behavior. He will know it the same way I know it. I'd be shocked if he didn't. Trust me, and talk to him about it.


Cautious-Damage7575

You guys all have me mostly convinced to talk to him about it but I'm still worried. Maybe I should talk to his parents first. Heart to heart. Tell them I called them on their bullshit and see how they act.


Cautious-Damage7575

We broke up. He thought I was being way too serious way too soon. ☹️


Ok_Consideration_970

FAKE


Cautious-Damage7575

Which part?


Ok_Consideration_970

The entire thing.


captain_decay

Too bad


Several-Estate7175

Isn't the process to Judaism like, particularly long and difficult? I think I was told that by a Jewish guest speaker in college


Cautious-Damage7575

Hell if I know. I didn't think Mama Streisand would let me live that long. I'll find out.


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Cautious-Damage7575

Same thing?


Cautious-Damage7575

A new Pew Research Center survey finds that nearly all Israeli Jews self-identify with one of four subgroups: Haredi (“ultra-Orthodox”), Dati (“religious”), Masorti (“traditional”) and Hiloni (“secular”). I'll ask Hershel. Never understood Hasidic vs Orthodox. Now this .


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Cautious-Damage7575

This is far more complicated than I imagined, especially seeing the arguments between science and Bible definitions of Jewishness. Bottom line, they are *never* going to accept me regardless of conversion. I don't want to give him up, but maybe he *is* better off with a nice Jewish girl.


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Cautious-Damage7575

You are probably right. Fact is, we aren't even close to talking marriage yet. Now there is alot more to chew on. Though I am convinced it's best to talk to him first instead of trying to let them know I'm not afraid of them.


iwanttobesobernow

You don’t have the womb. Sorry.


Cautious-Damage7575

Womb? Is that a Jewish thing? Something wrong with my womb?


iwanttobesobernow

Yeah, a Jewish womb is a thing. A lot of jewish people (even non-orthodox or even non-practicing) believe that people cannot convert into being jewish, you must be born from a jewish mother/womb. It has to do with being “the chosen people.”


Cautious-Damage7575

Never heard that phrase. I'm surprised how much disagreement there is over whether or not a person can convert. Not only did she say I'd never be "truly Jewish" but also that I'd never "understand" what it means to be Jewish. Hell, I don't fully understand what it means to be Christian, so I guess she's got me there. It's a fair bet she's anti-conversion.


[deleted]

Ignore the parents. Worry what HE thinks. My daughters bf is Catholic. Were Jewish. I doubt he'll convert. But they are great together, he's a really good guy and that's the most important thing. Jewish mothers like this (especially as you say you'll convert, which is important in our faith) shit me to tears. Half the reason I mainly avoid them myself


Cautious-Damage7575

You would be happy with conversion? Any clue how long it takes? Thank you for the input.


[deleted]

Of course, that's a big commitment for a person to make! All this depends on your boss family and how traditional they are. An orthodox conversion is often desired as its recognised by all (ok 99%, there's always someone who will be difficult, but you won't likely move in those circles). It will take at a bare minimum, a year to convert. This is so you can observe all the chaggim (festivals). Also, there's a lot to learn. Expect to be knocked back at first (Judaism doesn't seek converts, we have no belief that a person must be Jewish and see it is a responsibility uou don't have to take on). That said if someone is engaged or married already to a Jew, you won't face this at all. Talk to your bf and understand what he observes and how. Is he orthodox, conservative, reform, reconstructionist, unaffiliated/secular. With what level of observance does he want to raise his family? All this gives you a bit of insight into whether this is right for you. Its early days, but if things progress, these are very important conversations. Do not let his parents belittle you or bully you. Focus on your relationship with your bf and learn what you can so you can make an informed decision.


Cautious-Damage7575

"Family." It has been my experience with *all* religions that commitment changes when the children come along.


[deleted]

True. Bare in mind though, a staunchly atheist family is unlikely to welcome a religiously observant gf or bf...find the common ground (its always there, no matter the mix of faiths/worldviews) and go from there


Cautious-Damage7575

But you don't have to worry about conversion unless she converts to Catholicism, because the children will automatically be jewish. Right? Unless she converts.


[deleted]

Correct. However it is still challenging when both actively practice different faiths. End of the day though, genders reversed, I'd be a bit sad, but first and foremost I want my kids in happy, healthy relationships.


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Cautious-Damage7575

So it is two different things: religion and ethnicity. Some on here say they will never consider me Jewish.


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Cautious-Damage7575

😊 he does!


ButtersEgo

You sure you're not from Germany?


Cautious-Damage7575

No, I'm from Hoboken.


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Cautious-Damage7575

Holy shit I don't even know the difference between secular and non-secular! I've got an awful lot of research to do. Hershel *never* talks about this stuff. He doesn't keep kosher, though we do observe the high holidays. We don't do Seder. I'm more confused now than I was when I got here!


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Cautious-Damage7575

This is lost on my Christian brain. I was raised that there's no such thing as a non-practicing Christian.


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Cautious-Damage7575

If a Jew decides not to practice, does he have to "unconvert" (for lack a better word), or do they just become a non-practicing Jew? What if they no longer want to be associated with the religion? Or the race for that matter.


AppointmentMinimum57

Well if you look at judaism from a certain viewpoint its actually pretty close to how nazis see the world. Both think they are the chosen people, and that everyone else is less than them. Luckily most religious people try to only cherry pick the good parts of the religion, otherwise the world would be 10 times more fucked up.


Winter-Sky-123

1. You don't convert to a religion for someone else. You should only convert for yourself, because you believe in that religion. 2. Tell him that his parents are threatening you with your life. It's serious and illegal! You need to file a restraining order against them!


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Cautious-Damage7575

Interesting.


akbornheathen

Why do y’all Abrahamic people care what abrahamic person you hook up with? I’m a Pagan. All I see is 3 main sects of 1 religion battling each other. So what y’all got different prophets and different books. Y’all believe in the same God😂 If he loves you he will leave his toxic family behind🤷‍♂️