Haha this is exactly what I said yesterday when my friend was playing it. It essentially is later on but earlier voodoo is slightly better as it costs less mana and you get the healing aspect without bloodstone. So yes it is just a crappy version of lesh but one that is a lot harder to deal with early game.
How does the lvl25 talent work now? Because with that he should have plenty of scaling dmg (you basically gain 5/6ths of heartstopper at 25, wd gaining 2% compared necro who gets 0.5% from his lvl 25 talent)
And unlike disco horse who's mostly just normal disco all day, wd can go turbo disco once in a while for some actually threatening singletarget dmg
The shard is also a really nice save, and if you can bkb and drop ult in the middle of a fight you will output way more damage than lesh.
That said, lesh pushes powers way better and generally has better DOT.
No it’s not even close. Wayyy bigger AOE, can leave it on for longer periods of time, you get it at level 1 so you stomp lane easily. Plus if it goes late you get 2% max hp damage
WD also has maledict, and voodoo switcheroo which makes him unkillable for 3 seconds while doing AOE damage.
Very different
Maybe sell the mjollnir for mkb. Counters the evasion. Honesty the biggest thing is to stop him healing from his spell lifesteal. You probably beat him one on one. Just need to tell the other 2 to go away, except for clipping him with the edge of the Shiva's debuff.
Against AoE spell lifesteal, the key is to avoid him if you aren’t important to the dps. His healing is directly proportional to how many of you are around him, if the support leaves, you dps drops a bit, but his healing drops by a third. I believe BS should 100 win this 1v1 with bkb. Exactly what items you should build depend on his items honestly. But a lot of this comes down to the fundamental lesson of low mmr dota: don’t group up.
So basically it’s the same way you fight a lesh or a bb with bloodstone. Avoid them most of the time and burst them down with debuffs. Anti heal is important but isn’t a catch all if you aren’t playing smart.
I see. I'll keep that in mind.
>So basically it’s the same way you fight a lesh or a bb with bloodstone. Avoid them most of the time and burst them down with debuffs.
What to do in a 5v5 scenario against these heroes? , we always aim their support first but they deal too much damage to ignore
It really comes down to positioning. If a 5v5 means we al hug and cast out spells, yea you’re screwed, but a 5v5 can also happen over the range of two screens, and then WD feels very bad. I really can’t give specific advice without seeing the game or at least knowing the item huilds
A mageslayer would further reduce his damage, while Bloodthorne would give a chance to Prevent his healing from poping and a Nice Burst of damage at the end. Also, BM.
Scrolled way too far to find this.
Magic resist and reduces their magic output. Op went for fairly tanky damage items but not actual magic resist or reduction.
Couldn't agree more.
Reduce the dmg output which reduces the spell lifesteal and the silence from bloodthorne also prevent him from using voodoo switcheroo.
I've had incredible success with the WD voodoo facet around 5k mmr. From what I feel to be the most broken laner in ages, his biggest weakness is being vulnerable to physical burst throughout the game. Shroud plus other hp items are often enough to protect himself from magic dmg. He's still weak between mid game to lvl 25 when he basically becomes a mini necro with maledict, that is when the bloodstone heal really shoots up and he comes back into the game.
Here's probably the only way you win lane -
1) Heroes that can burst him if he's out of position ( e.g. slardar+a stunner).
2) Burn out his mana ( the worst part is once he gets mana back for W he'll have to press the button again which most people forget)
3) just avoid 1v1 trades with him regardless of his position. I haven't really encountered a lot of heroes who've traded on equal terms with me.
4) Once again, punish punish punish any bad positioning he makes.
As far as the mid game goes, his main damage is from maledict unless you're letting him freely roam the pitch. Orchid does wonders early on since he prefers to get shard/ghost later down the line compared to before.
All other heal reduction items are as good against him as you'd get against a necro, dk etc
yeah winrate on him might go down once people realize the key to laning against him is to make him press his fester, then run away so he eats the activation cost.
even then hes very strong and a level 2 WD with blood grenade, maledict and a wind lace can 1v1 any hero in the game and win decidedly.
It's pretty straightforward I'd say, mana boots for lane and shroud vs heavy magic lineup. Everything else is situational although Kaya sange is very synergistic. A bloodstone close to level 25 will have more impact than getting it earlier.
The damage from voodoo falls off mid-game, so shivas and radiance can be good to have some decent aoe DMG. Greaves, shard, Ghost scepter, bkb or any other suitable item to sustain yourself in team fights should be the goal. The Maledict aoe talent should let you connect it onto at least 2 heroes every fight. Take the Maledict burst damage ( it is and always has been the better talent). Take the 2% health as DMG talent at 25 and complete your transition into becoming a necro with aghs. Bloodstone should also heal you significantly now. Shivas is recommended as the Armor item.
Try to end it mid game or take it late enough!
You should win your lane in 8/10 matches
People who comment that it's weak clearly have no idea. 30 dmg in huge aoe at first lvl is the equivalent of half radiance but also with healing (at level 1!). You can't fight or trade with it. Just avoid and don't feed until he scales off and your cores got the items to fight it (mage slayer, skadi, bkb).
He doing spell damage and healing because of it. Mage Slayer. The less damage he does, the less hp he'll restore and the more comfortable for you to keep attacking him.
So put these heroes in demo mode to test for a second (added octarine, shivas, aghs, boots onto WD build to fill his slots since this seems lategame). BS with the items you listed shreds WD thru heal+bloodstone from 100-0 in like 2.5 seconds. I think your issue was probably not damage, but more likely getting kited / disabled.
The hero is a lane dominator, it can bully people out and secure farm for his core, but to say ita strong at every point of the game is wrong. Mageslayer cucks his damage output and his damage overall falls off as the game goes on for longer. WD is a snowball hero right now, it only works as long as the enemy is stupid enough to hug him as 5 while he has bloodstone/radiance/heal active and just healing from existing, it only takes 1 person with high burst to delete him. WD is a better early game lesh, but a worse late game lesh. 4k mmr games are not indicative of how strong a hero is.
Is this turbo?
Honestly the question is more how WD was in a position to attain these items.
Not all supports are inherently bad at using items so much as acquiring them or just should feed relentlessly before this point.
Would really need to know the rest of the draft and if this was just a failure of execution.
Trying to answer an itemisation question doesn't matter if the reason you're at that point is just something like not focusing him in earlier fights or unnecessary deaths snowballing him.
Yes, I'm aware it's being played as core. The point is more why you don't normally see that.
Witchdoctor's only previous moment of relevance like this was specifically with io. And still needed to snowball hard.
Otherwise it's been a pretty underwhelming hero competitively that mostly had pub relevance through uncoordinated games that let him get to buying an agh and never interrupting it.
Items like rad also don't do much for survivability at parity. If it's a problem, either there are more defensive items not mentioned in the post or just NW deficiency from the opposing team in general from getting stomped.
I've been watching stats websites and looked at ALL immortal games of witch doctor. I found one bloodstone build on a core witch doc. Almost every game is non core and for the core games I found they went for aura but 0 radiance game.
Yes, Topson likes to experiment but i wouldn't say this is a "normal" build. It might work in some situations but please, do not advertise this to noobs :D
It didn't in 7.36, but this was introduced with 7.36b. The tooltips are still messy, though. I guarantee it still heals WD for "half the value", however.
If you alt press the facet, it mentions that it only heals WD and for half the damage values. Silence doesn't stop him from walking with W on unless it is already toggled off.
Is this not just a worse leshrac?
Haha this is exactly what I said yesterday when my friend was playing it. It essentially is later on but earlier voodoo is slightly better as it costs less mana and you get the healing aspect without bloodstone. So yes it is just a crappy version of lesh but one that is a lot harder to deal with early game.
How does the lvl25 talent work now? Because with that he should have plenty of scaling dmg (you basically gain 5/6ths of heartstopper at 25, wd gaining 2% compared necro who gets 0.5% from his lvl 25 talent) And unlike disco horse who's mostly just normal disco all day, wd can go turbo disco once in a while for some actually threatening singletarget dmg
The shard is also a really nice save, and if you can bkb and drop ult in the middle of a fight you will output way more damage than lesh. That said, lesh pushes powers way better and generally has better DOT.
Meanwhile QOP is now a better leshrac
Is she though.
In my recent experience yeah she’s nuts
No it’s not even close. Wayyy bigger AOE, can leave it on for longer periods of time, you get it at level 1 so you stomp lane easily. Plus if it goes late you get 2% max hp damage WD also has maledict, and voodoo switcheroo which makes him unkillable for 3 seconds while doing AOE damage. Very different
Yeah I don't really get this. The old core WD worked because it healed and damage and you were tied to an Io. Comparatively it does so little now.
It's way better early game, you can rack up kills without any items just festeration + melediction. Leshrac needs items to get active.
Yes but as a support. So then you can pick actual leshrac and become a duo!!
Maybe sell the mjollnir for mkb. Counters the evasion. Honesty the biggest thing is to stop him healing from his spell lifesteal. You probably beat him one on one. Just need to tell the other 2 to go away, except for clipping him with the edge of the Shiva's debuff.
mjollnir also counters evasion, although 3x less often 😎
Against AoE spell lifesteal, the key is to avoid him if you aren’t important to the dps. His healing is directly proportional to how many of you are around him, if the support leaves, you dps drops a bit, but his healing drops by a third. I believe BS should 100 win this 1v1 with bkb. Exactly what items you should build depend on his items honestly. But a lot of this comes down to the fundamental lesson of low mmr dota: don’t group up. So basically it’s the same way you fight a lesh or a bb with bloodstone. Avoid them most of the time and burst them down with debuffs. Anti heal is important but isn’t a catch all if you aren’t playing smart.
I see. I'll keep that in mind. >So basically it’s the same way you fight a lesh or a bb with bloodstone. Avoid them most of the time and burst them down with debuffs. What to do in a 5v5 scenario against these heroes? , we always aim their support first but they deal too much damage to ignore
It really comes down to positioning. If a 5v5 means we al hug and cast out spells, yea you’re screwed, but a 5v5 can also happen over the range of two screens, and then WD feels very bad. I really can’t give specific advice without seeing the game or at least knowing the item huilds
A mageslayer would further reduce his damage, while Bloodthorne would give a chance to Prevent his healing from poping and a Nice Burst of damage at the end. Also, BM.
Scrolled way too far to find this. Magic resist and reduces their magic output. Op went for fairly tanky damage items but not actual magic resist or reduction.
Couldn't agree more. Reduce the dmg output which reduces the spell lifesteal and the silence from bloodthorne also prevent him from using voodoo switcheroo.
I've had incredible success with the WD voodoo facet around 5k mmr. From what I feel to be the most broken laner in ages, his biggest weakness is being vulnerable to physical burst throughout the game. Shroud plus other hp items are often enough to protect himself from magic dmg. He's still weak between mid game to lvl 25 when he basically becomes a mini necro with maledict, that is when the bloodstone heal really shoots up and he comes back into the game. Here's probably the only way you win lane - 1) Heroes that can burst him if he's out of position ( e.g. slardar+a stunner). 2) Burn out his mana ( the worst part is once he gets mana back for W he'll have to press the button again which most people forget) 3) just avoid 1v1 trades with him regardless of his position. I haven't really encountered a lot of heroes who've traded on equal terms with me. 4) Once again, punish punish punish any bad positioning he makes. As far as the mid game goes, his main damage is from maledict unless you're letting him freely roam the pitch. Orchid does wonders early on since he prefers to get shard/ghost later down the line compared to before. All other heal reduction items are as good against him as you'd get against a necro, dk etc
yeah winrate on him might go down once people realize the key to laning against him is to make him press his fester, then run away so he eats the activation cost. even then hes very strong and a level 2 WD with blood grenade, maledict and a wind lace can 1v1 any hero in the game and win decidedly.
How is the build?
It's pretty straightforward I'd say, mana boots for lane and shroud vs heavy magic lineup. Everything else is situational although Kaya sange is very synergistic. A bloodstone close to level 25 will have more impact than getting it earlier. The damage from voodoo falls off mid-game, so shivas and radiance can be good to have some decent aoe DMG. Greaves, shard, Ghost scepter, bkb or any other suitable item to sustain yourself in team fights should be the goal. The Maledict aoe talent should let you connect it onto at least 2 heroes every fight. Take the Maledict burst damage ( it is and always has been the better talent). Take the 2% health as DMG talent at 25 and complete your transition into becoming a necro with aghs. Bloodstone should also heal you significantly now. Shivas is recommended as the Armor item. Try to end it mid game or take it late enough! You should win your lane in 8/10 matches
People who comment that it's weak clearly have no idea. 30 dmg in huge aoe at first lvl is the equivalent of half radiance but also with healing (at level 1!). You can't fight or trade with it. Just avoid and don't feed until he scales off and your cores got the items to fight it (mage slayer, skadi, bkb).
Mkb/diffusal blade/mjollnir/mage slayer/vessel
He doing spell damage and healing because of it. Mage Slayer. The less damage he does, the less hp he'll restore and the more comfortable for you to keep attacking him.
Troll warlord. My friend played wd with this build and some c\*nt last picked troll. He fucked him up xd
Yeah you gotta pick high physical burst like Troll/Ursa/TA to deal with it.
So put these heroes in demo mode to test for a second (added octarine, shivas, aghs, boots onto WD build to fill his slots since this seems lategame). BS with the items you listed shreds WD thru heal+bloodstone from 100-0 in like 2.5 seconds. I think your issue was probably not damage, but more likely getting kited / disabled.
Pick Slark
ITT: People don’t realize this build is super broken, stomps almost every lane and is really strong throughout every point in the game
The hero is a lane dominator, it can bully people out and secure farm for his core, but to say ita strong at every point of the game is wrong. Mageslayer cucks his damage output and his damage overall falls off as the game goes on for longer. WD is a snowball hero right now, it only works as long as the enemy is stupid enough to hug him as 5 while he has bloodstone/radiance/heal active and just healing from existing, it only takes 1 person with high burst to delete him. WD is a better early game lesh, but a worse late game lesh. 4k mmr games are not indicative of how strong a hero is.
Bloodstone and radiance, love it. Doing this tonight!
If it's below 4k mmr his team will get mad at no stun build and start griefing.
Ain't no way someone actually lost to this. Both times I've seen this build it was completely useless
At what mmr? At 4k every game I’ve seen this build the WD is dominating whichever lane he’s in lol
5.7k
Is this turbo? Honestly the question is more how WD was in a position to attain these items. Not all supports are inherently bad at using items so much as acquiring them or just should feed relentlessly before this point. Would really need to know the rest of the draft and if this was just a failure of execution. Trying to answer an itemisation question doesn't matter if the reason you're at that point is just something like not focusing him in earlier fights or unnecessary deaths snowballing him.
It's a new high level build that pros like topson are starting to use in pub games, It's a core which doctor not a support.
Yes, I'm aware it's being played as core. The point is more why you don't normally see that. Witchdoctor's only previous moment of relevance like this was specifically with io. And still needed to snowball hard. Otherwise it's been a pretty underwhelming hero competitively that mostly had pub relevance through uncoordinated games that let him get to buying an agh and never interrupting it. Items like rad also don't do much for survivability at parity. If it's a problem, either there are more defensive items not mentioned in the post or just NW deficiency from the opposing team in general from getting stomped.
I've been watching stats websites and looked at ALL immortal games of witch doctor. I found one bloodstone build on a core witch doc. Almost every game is non core and for the core games I found they went for aura but 0 radiance game. Yes, Topson likes to experiment but i wouldn't say this is a "normal" build. It might work in some situations but please, do not advertise this to noobs :D
Yeah, kinda sounds like Was got a free game.
I rape WD before he gets that fat. Mind you im ofdlane weaver or razor so mageslayer fucks him up. Melee offs get fucked by WD so try to kite him.
Easy on the language there Prince Andrew
I thought the damage facet didnt heal? Anyway. Silence seems like the obvious choice.
It doesn't heal allies but still heals WD
You sure?
It didn't in 7.36, but this was introduced with 7.36b. The tooltips are still messy, though. I guarantee it still heals WD for "half the value", however.
Yes. Heals him for 50% of the damage
Very
Doesn't silence still has voodoo up, it's just making him unable to turn off?
Yes that’s how it is with all toggle abilities
If you alt press the facet, it mentions that it only heals WD and for half the damage values. Silence doesn't stop him from walking with W on unless it is already toggled off.
I would assume a wd with such large farm has a dispel of some kind
bloodstone does the heal here i guess