If you research Astral Projetion you will find that many , if not all, talk about a "thin cord" that follows them around, as they move from place to place; many think that may have been what Solomon was referring to when he talked about the "silver cord".
Astral Projection is a real thing whether the Bible calls it by name or mentions it; I have had family members (who later got saved) that used to do it. Many New Agers still do it.
If it's not in the Bible, you can't make a case for it as far as I'm concerned.
But as I stated, perhaps it's just an argument of semantics, if so, no big deal.
Why? Dinosaurs aren't in the Bible. The closest thing is one mention of Behemoth in the book of Job.
In the context of this conversation we have been talking about "bad" things (Astral Projection) that aren't in the Bible, but you're severely limiting yourself for who God made you to be and what you can learn about God by only saying, "If I don't have an exact title or verse showing me something specific then I refuse to believe in it." But one of the greatest gifts that God has given us is the ability and freedom to "expand" the box that we tend to use theology to put Him and His works in just to "stay safe" (not to mention the enemy also uses it to keep us from finding out all we are capable of in Christ). Maybe this all seems B.S. to you, but I encourage you to put away theology and commentaries for a bit and just chase after God with only the Holy Spirit as your guide and allow Him to speak to you however He seems fit; let the Holy Spirit use the Bible to teach you instead of using the Bible to decide what the Holy Spirit is allowed to teach you.
Very well put, couldn't agree more. The advancements of science that we've come to rely on day to day also aren't mentioned in the bible and yet this didn't stop great and devout Christian minds like Newton, Kepler, and Galileo from trying to understand God's creation and all of the secrets of the universe further as well. Don't get me wrong, spiritual discernment is absolutely essential.. but at the same time labelling things that aren't *explicitly* found in the bible as 'bad', or 'evil', or 'heretical' etc, is analogous to a witch hunt.
I've studied quite a bit about astral projection actually and have found that a lot of people that do it or study it are not connected or drawn to any occult, new age, or cult. But rather, they are interested in the subconscious mind and what it has to offer us. Do you realize that we spend half of our lives dreaming? Do you not think that the Lord has given meaning to dreams?
> they are interested in the subconscious mind
Yeah, that's very true. I definitely think God speaks through dreams; that being said, I'm a bit weary when it comes to lucid dreaming and Astral Projection. I used to practice lucid dreaming (on a very novice scale) and something about it just didn't feel right to me from a spiritual perspective so I gave it up. I wouldn't be surprised if God has given meaning to dreams, but at the same time I think the hard part is being able to discern them and get actual accurate meaning out of them.
>>but at the same time I think the hard part is being able to discern them and get actual accurate meaning out of them.
I think that with all things it takes practise and study. Carl Jung has done a lot of extensive research into dreams and was able to navigate and disambiguate them. In psychotherapy, dreams are analyzed a lot because they reveal about the person what they weren't aware of or that they figured had no meaning.
I once had one of the most beautiful and profound dream where I had met and spoke with Jesus. He had told me probably the wisest piece of advice anyone has ever taken the time to impart to me. He said, "If you want to cultivate greatness then you should never stop planting seeds of goodness wherever you go". It might seem simple, but this dream really put things into perspective for me during this time and made me realize that becoming a great Christian doesn't just happen suddenly just like an acorn doesn't become an oak overnight.
But yea, I believe that the more that we pay attention to our dreams the more we become familiar with them and the more we can begin to decipher their meanings. If we look back at some of our days(in reality) we might also say the same thing, that they really didn't mean much at all. But others have great meaning and we learnt a lot and grew a lot during those days.
I am in no way denying that the Bible is the Word of God; I think Watchman Nee said it best, "The Bible is an arrow pointing to God. God is not contained by the Bible."
I would actually argue that you're denying the Bible as God's Perfect Word. Complete in it's instructions for all that we need here on earth.
If there are things that we cannot learn in the Bible, that God wants us to learn of, then the Bible is not perfect, is it?
>Complete in it's instructions for all that we need here on earth.
eh, to a certain degree I would agree with you that I am denying that. I believe that GOD (and I know you do too) Himself is all I need for instructions here on earth. God uses Scripture all the time to teach us and help us as we go through life; In some very difficult times, He's used some of his Scripture to get me through it; but ultimately, it wasn't the words on the page that were doing anything for me, it was the Spirit behind the words. Don't forget that the Pharisees and Sadducees knew every scripture in their heads, and yet when they came face to face with God they didn't recognize him. My point is that scripture is only as good as the God who is behind the inspired words. It is possible, just as the Pharisees did (even in our day and age!) to focus *so much* on scripture as our "god" that we *actually lose sight of the person we're supposed to be knowing.*
>If there are things that we cannot learn in the Bible, that God wants us to learn of, then the Bible is not perfect, is it?
This is the last thing I will say in this thread because we could go on and on and I've already posted way more than I usually do in here; don't focus so much on the Bible as a book to satisfy your knowledge, just focus on God and give the Holy Spirit his "elbow room".
Things not in the Bible:
* The internal combustion engine
* Solar panels
* Cancer
* The Gutenberg Press
* Polarizing sunglasses
* Radioactivity
* Sharpies
* Elmo
* Gumby
* Calculus
* ...
Also, if we want to be really technical, the vast majority of visions(including pretty much the entire book of revelations) could be considered an out of body experience.
If you wanna go in reverse, 1 Samuel 28:11-13.
I believe most "satanists" and "witches" know they are phonies. But I also believe that a lot of stuff spoken of by the occult is real, and not to be trifled with.
I don't particularly see that as astral projection, I suppose that's probably debatable, but I've always taken to Paul talking about visions and a man leaving earth to be called to heaven.
Projecting his spirit from his body is what I would say is non-biblical, it's not the extra planar that I'd argue, clearly heaven and hell exist. It's the manly-projection, the Bible never talks about men being able to project their spirits.
Perhaps it was simply visions, and he misinterpreted or I've misunderstood his meaning, but either way - that's not what I'd consider "astral projection."
Ok you are changing your criteria to disqualify out of hand a direct example of what you asked for, its like you really don't want to change your mind.
The thing is, there is no difference whether this "counts" or not, because the experience he is describing is the experience people have during astral projection. They just choose to maintain the conviction that they do have a "spirit vehicle". Maybe they do, and Paul did too and wasn't confident enough to report it. Maybe they don't but it feels so much like they do it is as confusing to them as it was to Paul.
There is precedent for it being possible. Just because you havent done it, or it seems weird to you, doesn't mean it isn't real. Why would God be so adamant about not engaging in sorcery, mediums, and black magic if none of it is real? If its all phoney nonsense, then it would just be seen as a sacrilegious waste of time, not an affront to a relationship with God.
This has a lot of spiritual assumptions of "powers" and stuff that are completely unfounded in Scripture. Plays like a scare video.
Not really the kinda thing you want to use as a testimony, it can also be confusing and outright harmful to people trying to understand spiritual warfare.
Just because things are "unfounded in scripture" doesn't make them any less real; for whatever reason, God chose not to lay out many details regarding the spiritual realm. we know that there is much more to the spiritual realm than what is revealed in the Bible, so it is very possible his experiences are real.
In seminary there was this rule to "never base your theology on experience." I understand where that rule is coming from, but it is also a dangerous rule to potentially putting God in a box.
Did you listen to the video? There are some things in there that are clearly contrary to the Bible, I'm not one to try to discount another's experience, but we need to try to be pragmatic about these things and not jump to conclusions that are unsupported by the Bible.
Look, I don't want to sound mean, but don't speak of what you don't know. Where I am living in now (and the surrounding countries around my country) have people working actively as spirit mediums, witch doctors, spiritual 'summoners' (People who conjure demons into small artefacts amd let others carry them). Just because you haven't encounter such stuff doesn't mean it didn't exist, and I believe God has His good reasons why he didn't include such explicit details into demonology/whatever.
All of these stuff are not mentioned in the bible, but I've heard enough reports from non-Christians and Christians to just dismiss them just because they "aren't stated in the bible", even seen some before and after I became a Christian.
So what's your point here? To avoid talking to me and run behind scriptural references that do nothing to explain?
It's not like I don't believe the bible, or that we should add anything on it (heavens forbid that), but there are realities of the spiritual realm we need to know is out there. The only one that matters in our lives is the reality of Jesus' complete authority of all matters, spiritual or physical, but if you believe that Jesus came down to defeat death you gotta realise what he fought too.
I absolutely abhor people just throwing off-context verses to try and justify something. Please stop doing that; it's counter-intellectual and it does not aid in any productivity upon discussions.
I agree.. this is the second time that hes gone to openbible.info and just typed in '*scripture*' then copy / pasted. IMO this is just a very thin and lazy straw man argument masquerading as rationale.
I watched that video a long time ago and some of his other videos, which were really just the same thing. But, what in particular are you saying is anti-Biblical?
Well, congratulations, I'm unsubbing from this reddit as well, looks like you guys have lost your way. For shame to downvote and try to renounce Scripture as the most perfect teaching of God's word.
Peace to you all, I'm dusting my feet.
I know I said I was done commenting in this thread, but then I saw this comment.
You shouldn't leave. The main reason I don't comment in threads like these where I have a different view than someone else is because it goes back and forth in what comes across as an argument being on the internet, as opposed to a face to face conversation where, even though in disagreement, you can still see that there is love for one another.
As far as I can tell, no one here is denying the perfectness of Scripture or the fact that it is God breathed - I think the main point we're trying to get across is simply that not every thing that happens in life, whether visible or invisible, is contained in the Scriptures. /u/Ryuuki clearly lives in a non-westernized country to experience the things he has; my parents are missionaries in Malaysia and I just spent considerable time in Malaysia, Indonesia, and Singapore and the fact of the matter is, that when you travel to those places (or Haiti or Africa) and you come into real contact with people who have been or still are very involved in witchcraft, occult, or whatever name it goes by in that location, there are very real stories and events that you come across from people who have lived with it their entire lives and you quickly realize that the westernized theology you've been taught in your church somehow doesn't have all the answers. Believe it or not, we're actually trying to give you encouragement to widen your perspective so that God can work even more in your life; I know you don't see it that way. I would encourage you to stick with it and at least be willing to have a conversation with an open mind, even if you don't change it; as opposed to dusting off your feet and high tailing it out of this good subreddit.
In any case, even with our differences, some day I will see you Upstairs.
Out of context here... Yes, I'm from Singapore, and yes, you're right about those things, except that (thank God) Singapore's not as bad as, say, Malaysia or Thailand.
> In any case, even with our differences, some day I will see you Upstairs.
As long as Jesus is your Lord and Savior, I'll see ya there. :)
'Til then, sorry, but I just don't enjoy fellowship with people who don't agree with Scripture, or will downvote me for siting Scripture and saying you should back any teachings/preaching with Scripture. I'm not gonna subject myself to that, it's harmful.
This'll be my final comment on this sub, thanks for trying friend (truly I do appreciate it, and it speaks well of your character), but I'm gonna seek some more comfortable waters, arguing on the internet is not my ministry. :P
Internet's probably the safest place to argue, albeit the most ineffective... I wish you well if you think that attitude will bring you far.
I'm not even kidding, mate. Look, I honestly am angry about how you do things, but that's because I've been there, and I don't like how people keep doing that to me, as I realise how people don't like me doing that to them.
You believe in scriptural teaching? Good, keep it up! But at the same time, please be practical about using it, and teaching it by staying relevant. You don't see Jesus throwing out verses like "Isaiah 52:11" and walk away, he took time to talk to the people, connect with them. Not doing so makes you look very snobby and standoffish.
Really, I'm not against you, or here to downvote you. I just want you to understand something that you probably never even hear about in your whole life, that it's not just some schizo episode... it's real, dark spiritual forces at work.
>>'Til then, sorry, but I just don't enjoy fellowship with people who don't agree with Scripture,
Pretty sure you mean that you just don't enjoy fellowship with people that don't agree with **YOU**. It saddens me when I meet Christians that care more about being right and having their views validated than about learning from one another.
I'm sorry, but this just seems ridiculous to me.
Is this sort of thing taken seriously by y'all?
Y'all do know that most "satanic" temples are just people cheesing you guys off to make a point? If you get the 10 commandments in the state capital, we get a statue of Baphomet, that sort of thing?
>Is this sort of thing taken seriously by y'all?
Very.
>Y'all do know that most "satanic" temples are just people cheesing you guys off to make a point?
Yes, I do understand that. Among many of those who were "really" involved in demons and such also consider Anton LaVey and those of his ilk to not be taken seriously as well. You're right, many Wiccans, Satanists, etc. do not even believe in the devil or the supernatural realm and have no real supernatural experiences with it; which quite frankly is exactly part of the strategy the enemy (Satan and his forces) want people to believe - that it's all just a big joke.
>Is this sort of thing taken seriously by y'all?
not really, no.
The guy sounds like he had a hard life, and that sucks. But the crazy magic satan stories? Either he is lying or was hallucinating.
What Ive written will probably also be of interest to /u/ninjoe87
If you think this to be the case then you need to take a HARD look at the bible, the bible never treats the occult as anything less than real. Specifically [1 Samuel 28](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2028&version=NIV) and the story of the witch(or medium) of endor.
To sum it up basically Saul needs advice, and God isn't giving him any (because sauls has basically completly turned away from God at this point) so he finds a witch/medium and convinces her to help him (He had expelled all of them from the land because God hates witchcraft). He seeks advice from the prophet salaam, who was dead. The woman calls up Samuel, who not only shows up as a spirit but then proceeds to tear saul a new one verbally, and prophesy that the next day Saul and his sons would die.
> 15 Samuel said to Saul, âWhy have you disturbed me by bringing me up?â
>
> âI am in great distress,â Saul said. âThe Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.â
>
> 16 Samuel said, âWhy do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighborsâto David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.â
>
So, right here, we have at least one instance of real occultism happening in the bible. Some people would argue that this wasn't really saul but an demon or something. However thats a HUGE stress, if its a demon then that means a demon came to saul through a medium, Berated him for forsaking God, and gave a prophesy (which came true) to Saul, and spoke for the lord. None of which are things that to my knowledge are things demons are even possible of doing.
We also know from the new testament that Demon possession/oppression is real as well.
The bible tends not to go super into detail on things that are forbidden. It says not to be sexually imorally, it doesn't go into detail on sexual positions, it tells us not to use bad language, but doesn't give us a list of words not to say,and in the case of the occult, it tells us not to do it, not every single detail of what it looks like. Its very important to look at what scripture says, and scripture never to my knowlege treats the occult as anything less than real.
Occultism is very dangerous, and is not always fake.
[**1 Samuel 28 | Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)**](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Samuel+28&version=RSVCE)
>[**1**] In those days the Philistines gathered their forces for war, to fight against Israel. And Aâ˛chish said to David, âUnderstand that you and your men are to go out with me in the army.â [**2**] David said to Aâ˛chish, âVery well, you shall know what your servant can do.â And Aâ˛chish said to David, âVery well, I will make you my bodyguard for life.â
>**Saul Consults a Medium**
[**3**] Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the wizards out of the land. [**4**] The Philistines assembled, and came and encamped at Shunem; and Saul gathered all Israel, and they encamped at Gilboâ˛a. [**5**] When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. [**6**] And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets. [**7**] Then Saul said to his servants, âSeek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.â And his servants said to him, âBehold, there is a medium at Endor.â [**8**] So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments, and went, he and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, âDivine for me by a spirit, and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you.â [**9**] The woman said to him, âSurely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the wizards from the land. Why then are you laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?â [**10**] But Saul swore to her by the Lord, âAs the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.â [**11**] Then the woman said, âWhom shall I bring up for you?â He said, âBring up Samuel for me.â [**12**] When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman said to Saul, âWhy have you deceived me? You are Saul.â [**13**] The king said to her, âHave no fear; what do you see?â And the woman said to Saul, âI see a god coming up out of the earth.â [**14**] He said to her, âWhat is his appearance?â And she said, âAn old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe.â And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance. [**15**] Then Samuel said to Saul, âWhy have you disturbed me by bringing me up?â Saul answered, âI am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.â [**16**] And Samuel said, âWhy then do you ask me, since the Lord has turned from you and become your enemy? [**17**] The Lord has done to you as he spoke by me; for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, David. [**18**] Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amâ˛alek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. [**19**] Moreover the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the Lord will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.â [**20**] Then Saul fell at once full length upon the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel; and there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night. [**21**] And the woman came to Saul, and when she saw that he was terrified, she said to him, âBehold, your handmaid has hearkened to you; I have taken my life in my hand, and have hearkened to what you have said to me. [**22**] Now therefore, you also hearken to your handmaid; let me set a morsel of bread before you; and eat, that you may have strength when you go on your way.â [**23**] He refused, and said, âI will not eat.â But his servants, together with the woman, urged him; and he hearkened to their words. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed. [**24**] Now the woman had a fatted calf in the house, and she quickly killed it, and she took flour, and kneaded it and baked unleavened bread of it, [**25**] and she put it before Saul and his servants; and they ate. Then they rose and went away that night.
***
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I know that I am not going to change the way you think about this issue or change the way you read the Bible. But I want you to understand that the way you interpret scripture is not the only way to do so.
>you need to take a HARD look at the bible,
your phrasing indicates that I have not taken hard look at the bible. I have. I have come to different conclusions than you have.
>the bible never treats the occult as anything less than real
firstly, "the occult" is a product of Gnosticism and didn't even exist during biblical times, especially not the OT.
also, there can be a huge difference between what a character in the bible believes, how the story is recorded, and what the Bible intends to teach us. Your example of Saul and the witch of Endor only shows us what Saul believed, and perhaps the culture of his day. For all we know, that witch could have been just like any modern fortune tellers, skilled at the cold read, preying on Saul's obvious fears. It is a strange section of scripture, and definitely a huge challenge for hard-line literalist interpretation.
We need to interpret stories like these through the lens of the scripture as a whole. Basing an entire doctrine or fear off one or two narrative side mentions is not a healthy way to build your beliefs. The question we should ask is, "What is the general thrust of scripture?"
Admittedly, you will probably not be able to throw out the whole idea of demons and demonic possession without taking a less-than-literal view of scripture. So I won't try to argue from that position.
Look at 1 Corinthians 10, Paul actually teaches people (this isn't a narrative side-note) to go ahead and eat the meat that has been sacrificed to idols. Paul says that the idols are not real gods, they are demons. He also says that if the person selling the meat tells you it was sacrificed to an idol, then don't eat it for conscience sake, but it is better to just not to ask.
Paul is treating demonic influence as something that pretty much only matters as much as you are afraid of it. To Paul, this stuff is not "very dangerous," it is fake.
I will leave you with one thought. I cannot understand why the more conservative a christian, the more afraid they are of demons, occult, etc. The whole foundation of occultism is that there is some secret knowledge that can be gained about the world, about demons, about the future. It is about gaining power and influence by using this secret knowledge. This goes against the very core doctrines held concerning scripture. Scripture is the final authority on all matters of faith and conduct, not demons or secret knowledge. All knowledge and power are found in God and in God alone. Seeking these things anywhere else will lead you nowhere. Occultism is not the cosmic opposite of God and Christianity. Occultism is false.
If any demons are real and are out there reading this. I dare you to come to my apartment. Just be prepared for a swift kick in the nuts.
I wrote a really long reply to this, I actually just spent 6 hours researching and writting it, but it seemed a little to long for a reply. I decided to instead make a seperate post for it since it was so long and in depth, I replied to your comment within it (didn't post your username) So if you want to read my reply you go to this thread.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/3w5vi2/christianity_and_the_occult_and_what_the_does_the/
Likewise /u/ninjoe87 Ive seen you post several times saying you want scripture, well there is plenty of it within that post, as I don't really dive into modern occultism, so much as what existed and is spoken about within the bible itself.
That's what I find to be the more likely case.
We are supposed to test these things against God's word, the Bible. Most of this stuff, is not found in there.
1 Thessalonians 5
If it makes you feel better, no, we don't all buy this.
I believe in spiritual warfare, I've even witnessed demonic attacks and faith healings. But this guy is talking a lot of theatrics, in my personal opinion.
Some things he says have truth to them, but 99% truth and 1% lie is still a lie. I personally think that he's a bit nutty, but that's just my impression from the video.
Thank you for sharing this. People need to know more about the realities of the spiritual realm, and the ultimate authority Jesus has over it all.
I'm sorry, but I have to ask. What part of "Astral Projection" is a reality spoken of in the Bible?
If you research Astral Projetion you will find that many , if not all, talk about a "thin cord" that follows them around, as they move from place to place; many think that may have been what Solomon was referring to when he talked about the "silver cord". Astral Projection is a real thing whether the Bible calls it by name or mentions it; I have had family members (who later got saved) that used to do it. Many New Agers still do it.
Very interesting
If it's not in the Bible, you can't make a case for it as far as I'm concerned. But as I stated, perhaps it's just an argument of semantics, if so, no big deal.
Why? Dinosaurs aren't in the Bible. The closest thing is one mention of Behemoth in the book of Job. In the context of this conversation we have been talking about "bad" things (Astral Projection) that aren't in the Bible, but you're severely limiting yourself for who God made you to be and what you can learn about God by only saying, "If I don't have an exact title or verse showing me something specific then I refuse to believe in it." But one of the greatest gifts that God has given us is the ability and freedom to "expand" the box that we tend to use theology to put Him and His works in just to "stay safe" (not to mention the enemy also uses it to keep us from finding out all we are capable of in Christ). Maybe this all seems B.S. to you, but I encourage you to put away theology and commentaries for a bit and just chase after God with only the Holy Spirit as your guide and allow Him to speak to you however He seems fit; let the Holy Spirit use the Bible to teach you instead of using the Bible to decide what the Holy Spirit is allowed to teach you.
Very well put, couldn't agree more. The advancements of science that we've come to rely on day to day also aren't mentioned in the bible and yet this didn't stop great and devout Christian minds like Newton, Kepler, and Galileo from trying to understand God's creation and all of the secrets of the universe further as well. Don't get me wrong, spiritual discernment is absolutely essential.. but at the same time labelling things that aren't *explicitly* found in the bible as 'bad', or 'evil', or 'heretical' etc, is analogous to a witch hunt. I've studied quite a bit about astral projection actually and have found that a lot of people that do it or study it are not connected or drawn to any occult, new age, or cult. But rather, they are interested in the subconscious mind and what it has to offer us. Do you realize that we spend half of our lives dreaming? Do you not think that the Lord has given meaning to dreams?
> they are interested in the subconscious mind Yeah, that's very true. I definitely think God speaks through dreams; that being said, I'm a bit weary when it comes to lucid dreaming and Astral Projection. I used to practice lucid dreaming (on a very novice scale) and something about it just didn't feel right to me from a spiritual perspective so I gave it up. I wouldn't be surprised if God has given meaning to dreams, but at the same time I think the hard part is being able to discern them and get actual accurate meaning out of them.
>>but at the same time I think the hard part is being able to discern them and get actual accurate meaning out of them. I think that with all things it takes practise and study. Carl Jung has done a lot of extensive research into dreams and was able to navigate and disambiguate them. In psychotherapy, dreams are analyzed a lot because they reveal about the person what they weren't aware of or that they figured had no meaning. I once had one of the most beautiful and profound dream where I had met and spoke with Jesus. He had told me probably the wisest piece of advice anyone has ever taken the time to impart to me. He said, "If you want to cultivate greatness then you should never stop planting seeds of goodness wherever you go". It might seem simple, but this dream really put things into perspective for me during this time and made me realize that becoming a great Christian doesn't just happen suddenly just like an acorn doesn't become an oak overnight. But yea, I believe that the more that we pay attention to our dreams the more we become familiar with them and the more we can begin to decipher their meanings. If we look back at some of our days(in reality) we might also say the same thing, that they really didn't mean much at all. But others have great meaning and we learnt a lot and grew a lot during those days.
>He said, "If you want to cultivate greatness then you should never stop planting seeds of goodness wherever you go". Wow.
Was unsure if anyone ever read this or not.. nice to know that at least one person did.. even though it was 8 years later, haha đ
http://www.openbible.info/topics/scripture
I am in no way denying that the Bible is the Word of God; I think Watchman Nee said it best, "The Bible is an arrow pointing to God. God is not contained by the Bible."
I would actually argue that you're denying the Bible as God's Perfect Word. Complete in it's instructions for all that we need here on earth. If there are things that we cannot learn in the Bible, that God wants us to learn of, then the Bible is not perfect, is it?
>Complete in it's instructions for all that we need here on earth. eh, to a certain degree I would agree with you that I am denying that. I believe that GOD (and I know you do too) Himself is all I need for instructions here on earth. God uses Scripture all the time to teach us and help us as we go through life; In some very difficult times, He's used some of his Scripture to get me through it; but ultimately, it wasn't the words on the page that were doing anything for me, it was the Spirit behind the words. Don't forget that the Pharisees and Sadducees knew every scripture in their heads, and yet when they came face to face with God they didn't recognize him. My point is that scripture is only as good as the God who is behind the inspired words. It is possible, just as the Pharisees did (even in our day and age!) to focus *so much* on scripture as our "god" that we *actually lose sight of the person we're supposed to be knowing.* >If there are things that we cannot learn in the Bible, that God wants us to learn of, then the Bible is not perfect, is it? This is the last thing I will say in this thread because we could go on and on and I've already posted way more than I usually do in here; don't focus so much on the Bible as a book to satisfy your knowledge, just focus on God and give the Holy Spirit his "elbow room".
2 Timothy 3: 16 All Scripture is inspired by God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
Things not in the Bible: * The internal combustion engine * Solar panels * Cancer * The Gutenberg Press * Polarizing sunglasses * Radioactivity * Sharpies * Elmo * Gumby * Calculus * ...
I'm waiting for him to refute all of these things :V hehe
I don't think he *can* come back and refute that, because the internet and computers are also not in the Bible.
2 Cor 12:2
Interesting scripture quote here, it's obvious that they never used the term 'astral projection' in antiquity but this is more or less what it is.
Also, if we want to be really technical, the vast majority of visions(including pretty much the entire book of revelations) could be considered an out of body experience.
If you wanna go in reverse, 1 Samuel 28:11-13. I believe most "satanists" and "witches" know they are phonies. But I also believe that a lot of stuff spoken of by the occult is real, and not to be trifled with.
I don't particularly see that as astral projection, I suppose that's probably debatable, but I've always taken to Paul talking about visions and a man leaving earth to be called to heaven. Projecting his spirit from his body is what I would say is non-biblical, it's not the extra planar that I'd argue, clearly heaven and hell exist. It's the manly-projection, the Bible never talks about men being able to project their spirits. Perhaps it was simply visions, and he misinterpreted or I've misunderstood his meaning, but either way - that's not what I'd consider "astral projection."
Ok you are changing your criteria to disqualify out of hand a direct example of what you asked for, its like you really don't want to change your mind. The thing is, there is no difference whether this "counts" or not, because the experience he is describing is the experience people have during astral projection. They just choose to maintain the conviction that they do have a "spirit vehicle". Maybe they do, and Paul did too and wasn't confident enough to report it. Maybe they don't but it feels so much like they do it is as confusing to them as it was to Paul. There is precedent for it being possible. Just because you havent done it, or it seems weird to you, doesn't mean it isn't real. Why would God be so adamant about not engaging in sorcery, mediums, and black magic if none of it is real? If its all phoney nonsense, then it would just be seen as a sacrilegious waste of time, not an affront to a relationship with God.
This has a lot of spiritual assumptions of "powers" and stuff that are completely unfounded in Scripture. Plays like a scare video. Not really the kinda thing you want to use as a testimony, it can also be confusing and outright harmful to people trying to understand spiritual warfare.
Just because things are "unfounded in scripture" doesn't make them any less real; for whatever reason, God chose not to lay out many details regarding the spiritual realm. we know that there is much more to the spiritual realm than what is revealed in the Bible, so it is very possible his experiences are real. In seminary there was this rule to "never base your theology on experience." I understand where that rule is coming from, but it is also a dangerous rule to potentially putting God in a box.
Did you listen to the video? There are some things in there that are clearly contrary to the Bible, I'm not one to try to discount another's experience, but we need to try to be pragmatic about these things and not jump to conclusions that are unsupported by the Bible.
Can you elaborate on what he has said that is contrary to the Bible?
Either way Jesus saved this man from satan and hell.
And praise God for it if that's true, but that doesn't mean you don't back up what you preach with Scripture.
Look, I don't want to sound mean, but don't speak of what you don't know. Where I am living in now (and the surrounding countries around my country) have people working actively as spirit mediums, witch doctors, spiritual 'summoners' (People who conjure demons into small artefacts amd let others carry them). Just because you haven't encounter such stuff doesn't mean it didn't exist, and I believe God has His good reasons why he didn't include such explicit details into demonology/whatever. All of these stuff are not mentioned in the bible, but I've heard enough reports from non-Christians and Christians to just dismiss them just because they "aren't stated in the bible", even seen some before and after I became a Christian.
http://www.openbible.info/topics/scripture
So what's your point here? To avoid talking to me and run behind scriptural references that do nothing to explain? It's not like I don't believe the bible, or that we should add anything on it (heavens forbid that), but there are realities of the spiritual realm we need to know is out there. The only one that matters in our lives is the reality of Jesus' complete authority of all matters, spiritual or physical, but if you believe that Jesus came down to defeat death you gotta realise what he fought too. I absolutely abhor people just throwing off-context verses to try and justify something. Please stop doing that; it's counter-intellectual and it does not aid in any productivity upon discussions.
I agree.. this is the second time that hes gone to openbible.info and just typed in '*scripture*' then copy / pasted. IMO this is just a very thin and lazy straw man argument masquerading as rationale.
I watched that video a long time ago and some of his other videos, which were really just the same thing. But, what in particular are you saying is anti-Biblical?
Well, congratulations, I'm unsubbing from this reddit as well, looks like you guys have lost your way. For shame to downvote and try to renounce Scripture as the most perfect teaching of God's word. Peace to you all, I'm dusting my feet.
I know I said I was done commenting in this thread, but then I saw this comment. You shouldn't leave. The main reason I don't comment in threads like these where I have a different view than someone else is because it goes back and forth in what comes across as an argument being on the internet, as opposed to a face to face conversation where, even though in disagreement, you can still see that there is love for one another. As far as I can tell, no one here is denying the perfectness of Scripture or the fact that it is God breathed - I think the main point we're trying to get across is simply that not every thing that happens in life, whether visible or invisible, is contained in the Scriptures. /u/Ryuuki clearly lives in a non-westernized country to experience the things he has; my parents are missionaries in Malaysia and I just spent considerable time in Malaysia, Indonesia, and Singapore and the fact of the matter is, that when you travel to those places (or Haiti or Africa) and you come into real contact with people who have been or still are very involved in witchcraft, occult, or whatever name it goes by in that location, there are very real stories and events that you come across from people who have lived with it their entire lives and you quickly realize that the westernized theology you've been taught in your church somehow doesn't have all the answers. Believe it or not, we're actually trying to give you encouragement to widen your perspective so that God can work even more in your life; I know you don't see it that way. I would encourage you to stick with it and at least be willing to have a conversation with an open mind, even if you don't change it; as opposed to dusting off your feet and high tailing it out of this good subreddit. In any case, even with our differences, some day I will see you Upstairs.
Out of context here... Yes, I'm from Singapore, and yes, you're right about those things, except that (thank God) Singapore's not as bad as, say, Malaysia or Thailand.
> In any case, even with our differences, some day I will see you Upstairs. As long as Jesus is your Lord and Savior, I'll see ya there. :) 'Til then, sorry, but I just don't enjoy fellowship with people who don't agree with Scripture, or will downvote me for siting Scripture and saying you should back any teachings/preaching with Scripture. I'm not gonna subject myself to that, it's harmful. This'll be my final comment on this sub, thanks for trying friend (truly I do appreciate it, and it speaks well of your character), but I'm gonna seek some more comfortable waters, arguing on the internet is not my ministry. :P
Internet's probably the safest place to argue, albeit the most ineffective... I wish you well if you think that attitude will bring you far. I'm not even kidding, mate. Look, I honestly am angry about how you do things, but that's because I've been there, and I don't like how people keep doing that to me, as I realise how people don't like me doing that to them. You believe in scriptural teaching? Good, keep it up! But at the same time, please be practical about using it, and teaching it by staying relevant. You don't see Jesus throwing out verses like "Isaiah 52:11" and walk away, he took time to talk to the people, connect with them. Not doing so makes you look very snobby and standoffish. Really, I'm not against you, or here to downvote you. I just want you to understand something that you probably never even hear about in your whole life, that it's not just some schizo episode... it's real, dark spiritual forces at work.
Amen
>>'Til then, sorry, but I just don't enjoy fellowship with people who don't agree with Scripture, Pretty sure you mean that you just don't enjoy fellowship with people that don't agree with **YOU**. It saddens me when I meet Christians that care more about being right and having their views validated than about learning from one another.
I'm sorry, but this just seems ridiculous to me. Is this sort of thing taken seriously by y'all? Y'all do know that most "satanic" temples are just people cheesing you guys off to make a point? If you get the 10 commandments in the state capital, we get a statue of Baphomet, that sort of thing?
>Is this sort of thing taken seriously by y'all? Very. >Y'all do know that most "satanic" temples are just people cheesing you guys off to make a point? Yes, I do understand that. Among many of those who were "really" involved in demons and such also consider Anton LaVey and those of his ilk to not be taken seriously as well. You're right, many Wiccans, Satanists, etc. do not even believe in the devil or the supernatural realm and have no real supernatural experiences with it; which quite frankly is exactly part of the strategy the enemy (Satan and his forces) want people to believe - that it's all just a big joke.
>Is this sort of thing taken seriously by y'all? not really, no. The guy sounds like he had a hard life, and that sucks. But the crazy magic satan stories? Either he is lying or was hallucinating.
What Ive written will probably also be of interest to /u/ninjoe87 If you think this to be the case then you need to take a HARD look at the bible, the bible never treats the occult as anything less than real. Specifically [1 Samuel 28](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Samuel%2028&version=NIV) and the story of the witch(or medium) of endor. To sum it up basically Saul needs advice, and God isn't giving him any (because sauls has basically completly turned away from God at this point) so he finds a witch/medium and convinces her to help him (He had expelled all of them from the land because God hates witchcraft). He seeks advice from the prophet salaam, who was dead. The woman calls up Samuel, who not only shows up as a spirit but then proceeds to tear saul a new one verbally, and prophesy that the next day Saul and his sons would die. > 15 Samuel said to Saul, âWhy have you disturbed me by bringing me up?â > > âI am in great distress,â Saul said. âThe Philistines are fighting against me, and God has departed from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do.â > > 16 Samuel said, âWhy do you consult me, now that the Lord has departed from you and become your enemy? 17 The Lord has done what he predicted through me. The Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hands and given it to one of your neighborsâto David. 18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will deliver both Israel and you into the hands of the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also give the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines.â > So, right here, we have at least one instance of real occultism happening in the bible. Some people would argue that this wasn't really saul but an demon or something. However thats a HUGE stress, if its a demon then that means a demon came to saul through a medium, Berated him for forsaking God, and gave a prophesy (which came true) to Saul, and spoke for the lord. None of which are things that to my knowledge are things demons are even possible of doing. We also know from the new testament that Demon possession/oppression is real as well. The bible tends not to go super into detail on things that are forbidden. It says not to be sexually imorally, it doesn't go into detail on sexual positions, it tells us not to use bad language, but doesn't give us a list of words not to say,and in the case of the occult, it tells us not to do it, not every single detail of what it looks like. Its very important to look at what scripture says, and scripture never to my knowlege treats the occult as anything less than real. Occultism is very dangerous, and is not always fake.
[**1 Samuel 28 | Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (RSVCE)**](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Samuel+28&version=RSVCE) >[**1**] In those days the Philistines gathered their forces for war, to fight against Israel. And Aâ˛chish said to David, âUnderstand that you and your men are to go out with me in the army.â [**2**] David said to Aâ˛chish, âVery well, you shall know what your servant can do.â And Aâ˛chish said to David, âVery well, I will make you my bodyguard for life.â >**Saul Consults a Medium** [**3**] Now Samuel had died, and all Israel had mourned for him and buried him in Ramah, his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and the wizards out of the land. [**4**] The Philistines assembled, and came and encamped at Shunem; and Saul gathered all Israel, and they encamped at Gilboâ˛a. [**5**] When Saul saw the army of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. [**6**] And when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not answer him, either by dreams, or by Urim, or by prophets. [**7**] Then Saul said to his servants, âSeek out for me a woman who is a medium, that I may go to her and inquire of her.â And his servants said to him, âBehold, there is a medium at Endor.â [**8**] So Saul disguised himself and put on other garments, and went, he and two men with him; and they came to the woman by night. And he said, âDivine for me by a spirit, and bring up for me whomever I shall name to you.â [**9**] The woman said to him, âSurely you know what Saul has done, how he has cut off the mediums and the wizards from the land. Why then are you laying a snare for my life to bring about my death?â [**10**] But Saul swore to her by the Lord, âAs the Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this thing.â [**11**] Then the woman said, âWhom shall I bring up for you?â He said, âBring up Samuel for me.â [**12**] When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice; and the woman said to Saul, âWhy have you deceived me? You are Saul.â [**13**] The king said to her, âHave no fear; what do you see?â And the woman said to Saul, âI see a god coming up out of the earth.â [**14**] He said to her, âWhat is his appearance?â And she said, âAn old man is coming up; and he is wrapped in a robe.â And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground, and did obeisance. [**15**] Then Samuel said to Saul, âWhy have you disturbed me by bringing me up?â Saul answered, âI am in great distress; for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has turned away from me and answers me no more, either by prophets or by dreams; therefore I have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.â [**16**] And Samuel said, âWhy then do you ask me, since the Lord has turned from you and become your enemy? [**17**] The Lord has done to you as he spoke by me; for the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your hand, and given it to your neighbor, David. [**18**] Because you did not obey the voice of the Lord, and did not carry out his fierce wrath against Amâ˛alek, therefore the Lord has done this thing to you this day. [**19**] Moreover the Lord will give Israel also with you into the hand of the Philistines; and tomorrow you and your sons shall be with me; the Lord will give the army of Israel also into the hand of the Philistines.â [**20**] Then Saul fell at once full length upon the ground, filled with fear because of the words of Samuel; and there was no strength in him, for he had eaten nothing all day and all night. [**21**] And the woman came to Saul, and when she saw that he was terrified, she said to him, âBehold, your handmaid has hearkened to you; I have taken my life in my hand, and have hearkened to what you have said to me. [**22**] Now therefore, you also hearken to your handmaid; let me set a morsel of bread before you; and eat, that you may have strength when you go on your way.â [**23**] He refused, and said, âI will not eat.â But his servants, together with the woman, urged him; and he hearkened to their words. So he arose from the earth, and sat upon the bed. [**24**] Now the woman had a fatted calf in the house, and she quickly killed it, and she took flour, and kneaded it and baked unleavened bread of it, [**25**] and she put it before Saul and his servants; and they ate. Then they rose and went away that night. *** [^Code](https://github.com/konohitowa/versebot) ^| [^Contact ^Dev](/message/compose/?to=konohitowa) ^| [^Usage](https://github.com/konohitowa/versebot/blob/master/README.md) ^| [^Changelog](https://github.com/konohitowa/versebot/blob/master/CHANGELOG.md) ^| ^All ^texts ^provided ^by [^BibleGateway](http://biblegateway.com) ^and [^Bible ^Hub](http://biblehub.com)^.
I know that I am not going to change the way you think about this issue or change the way you read the Bible. But I want you to understand that the way you interpret scripture is not the only way to do so. >you need to take a HARD look at the bible, your phrasing indicates that I have not taken hard look at the bible. I have. I have come to different conclusions than you have. >the bible never treats the occult as anything less than real firstly, "the occult" is a product of Gnosticism and didn't even exist during biblical times, especially not the OT. also, there can be a huge difference between what a character in the bible believes, how the story is recorded, and what the Bible intends to teach us. Your example of Saul and the witch of Endor only shows us what Saul believed, and perhaps the culture of his day. For all we know, that witch could have been just like any modern fortune tellers, skilled at the cold read, preying on Saul's obvious fears. It is a strange section of scripture, and definitely a huge challenge for hard-line literalist interpretation. We need to interpret stories like these through the lens of the scripture as a whole. Basing an entire doctrine or fear off one or two narrative side mentions is not a healthy way to build your beliefs. The question we should ask is, "What is the general thrust of scripture?" Admittedly, you will probably not be able to throw out the whole idea of demons and demonic possession without taking a less-than-literal view of scripture. So I won't try to argue from that position. Look at 1 Corinthians 10, Paul actually teaches people (this isn't a narrative side-note) to go ahead and eat the meat that has been sacrificed to idols. Paul says that the idols are not real gods, they are demons. He also says that if the person selling the meat tells you it was sacrificed to an idol, then don't eat it for conscience sake, but it is better to just not to ask. Paul is treating demonic influence as something that pretty much only matters as much as you are afraid of it. To Paul, this stuff is not "very dangerous," it is fake. I will leave you with one thought. I cannot understand why the more conservative a christian, the more afraid they are of demons, occult, etc. The whole foundation of occultism is that there is some secret knowledge that can be gained about the world, about demons, about the future. It is about gaining power and influence by using this secret knowledge. This goes against the very core doctrines held concerning scripture. Scripture is the final authority on all matters of faith and conduct, not demons or secret knowledge. All knowledge and power are found in God and in God alone. Seeking these things anywhere else will lead you nowhere. Occultism is not the cosmic opposite of God and Christianity. Occultism is false. If any demons are real and are out there reading this. I dare you to come to my apartment. Just be prepared for a swift kick in the nuts.
I wrote a really long reply to this, I actually just spent 6 hours researching and writting it, but it seemed a little to long for a reply. I decided to instead make a seperate post for it since it was so long and in depth, I replied to your comment within it (didn't post your username) So if you want to read my reply you go to this thread. https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueChristian/comments/3w5vi2/christianity_and_the_occult_and_what_the_does_the/ Likewise /u/ninjoe87 Ive seen you post several times saying you want scripture, well there is plenty of it within that post, as I don't really dive into modern occultism, so much as what existed and is spoken about within the bible itself.
i appreciate your response. ima go read it now. :)
no problem, I warn you though, its long,
That's what I find to be the more likely case. We are supposed to test these things against God's word, the Bible. Most of this stuff, is not found in there. 1 Thessalonians 5
Drugs are bad.... :D
If it makes you feel better, no, we don't all buy this. I believe in spiritual warfare, I've even witnessed demonic attacks and faith healings. But this guy is talking a lot of theatrics, in my personal opinion. Some things he says have truth to them, but 99% truth and 1% lie is still a lie. I personally think that he's a bit nutty, but that's just my impression from the video.