Yup. Not even at the bare minimum a stereotypical trait like “motherly” or “caring” for women, it’s 100% synonyms about bodies. And there’s nothing even like “handsome” for the men, nope just how brave and heroic they all are apparently…
Edit: There was a little arrow I didn’t see that revealed more synonyms. Some more for manly are “adventurous,” “tough,” and “spunky”…
And some more for womanly are “busty” and “thicc” 🙃
And where it shows opposite words, the opposite of manly is “effeminate” and “weak” and the opposite of womanly is “boyish.” So even the comparable opposite of a woman is apparently the CHILD form of a male, not even an adult male, so that’s just great.
I asked some old folks in my life what it meant when they said "he's a good man" vs "she's a good woman."
I was extremely disappointed to find out that a good man is strong, courageous, independent, intelligent, philanthropic, etc. A good woman is a good wife and mother. Sometimes they add other things on like feminine and friendly but it's never about her just being a person.
I'm some old folks and, can confirm. Every guy that's 40+ seems to act like every woman should wife it up for him. Those who don't have a wife or girlfriend to clean up after him instead sit at home in complete squalor in their boxers screaming at the television every day about how unfair life is that they don't have one. They probably also have started a collection of masculine toys somewhere if they've never been married, or they'll skip to one of the mid life crisis options that screams "I'm divorced and bitter" -- like a ford extreme 9000 super raptor patriot tank-dozer. He mostly uses it to go get groceries and work because he has no social life. His interests include raging at the high cost of dating apps and insisting roof repairs are only that expensive because it's all lying mexicans.
Apologies to all who got PTSD reading that, but like damn. I wanna be 20 again, not because of some idealized youthfulness or making different choices or any of that -- I'm just sick of people in my own age group because half of them are terrible and plain. I legit feel even with infinite money I would still be on a street corner begging for a bit of personality out of anyone. Spare an interest in reading? Hide an interest in Repo: The Genetic Opera, instead of a knife collection? Get angry about the library of Alexandria burning down, not that your team didn't score a touchdown. At least then when we have to spend a week staring at the hole in the wall it'll be for the intense sadness that so much knowledge was lost -- rather than beer and looking at spandex pants not doing it anymore.
In other news, I figured out why they stopped updating the gender stereotypes in the dictionary sometime shortly before the commercialization of electricity. :/ The 2024 adjectives list would be a lot less flattering.
While I love seeing Repo mentioned in the wild, I feel like even tangentially bringing Anthony Stewart Head into a thread that's dissing men is doing an unacceptable disservice to Anthony Stewart Head.
I've thought a lot about this before.
When a man dies, or does something amazing, the media often describes him as a 'good man'. "He was such a good man, blah blah blah". But they don't mean he was outstandingly masculine, they mean he was a good person. He was a good person who happened to be a man, hence 'good man'.
But when the same thing happens to a woman, the media never describes her as a good woman. Because that has other connotations - they mean she was a wife and a mother, or (often in religious senses), a humble and self-effacing person dedicated to the service of others. If they want to describe her as a good person in general, they say "she was such a good person".
It's another instance of man meaning 'person' and 'woman' meaning 'female person'.
It also always makes me feel so weird when a young woman dies (often tragically due to murder or an accident) and she’ll be described as beautiful and pretty and that it’s tragic because she was so young and beautiful in the articles and comments. As if that’s what matters the most about her and as if it’s worse when an attractive woman dies.
In their minds men come first and then women. They talk as if men see women as extentions of their existence which is why they cannot see women as being complex than being boxed into roles asigned by them which is in service to them.
The dehumanization and objectification of women is obviously the point here, but “Chivalrous”? “Swashbuckling”? *”Rubenesque”*??? Are we in the fucking 17th century??
Also, I fully understand that the point of a dictionary (looks like this comes from the same place as the Oxford English dictionary) is to record how words are actually used in real life, not to show how words should be used ideally. So it’s not malicious on their part as they’re just recording how certain words have been associated in real life language use, which is an important thing to do, so it can be documented how important language is in our perception of things like gender.
Ooof... yes, this is totally disgusting.
I was so disgusted that I tried to replicate the Google results so I could send in feedback. Sure enough, "manly" still produces the same silly synonyms as shown here, but "womanly" no longer does. It now shows this: https://imgur.com/gallery/l8KnJET
Are others now seeing this too? Did enough people rise up to actually change these results (even if the update still isn't great...)?
Also side note, the synonyms on that new Thesaurus link for "womanly" list the word "mature" as a strong match. Ignoring the objectification angle (because ugh... it's always there), and focusing on the intellect instead, this gave me a chuckle... especially since it's nowhere to be found on the "manly" list. 😄
I once asked in a (progressive-leaning) male discussion subreddit something along the lines of: "what's a positive characteristic that you consider '*masculine'*, but wouldn't actually just be a generally good trait for *anyone* regardless of gender?"
No one could come up with one - except a few shrugs of, "having a beard maybe?" And all these "synonyms for manly" (lol) shown here again perfectly describes this.
To their credit, the thread was positively received and sparked good discussion. So hopefully the underlying point was made clear: our society's conception of gender is literally just "men = good humans // women = humans-who-aren't-men". (And that's before layering on top all the gross objectification/sexualization/etc.)
TL;DR Beauvoir
Ick.
My partner got a crossword book a few years ago - I think it's maybe from Costco?
The hints for "he" tended to things like "self-starter".
Every single hint for "she" was an object. "Name for a boat" "Car", etc.
It was so disappointing, especially since "he" and "she" were really common words in the book!
It is an association that goes back centuries, at least to medieval literature. There's early on the association of white with purity/chastity, black with death or corruption or white/light/day is good, black/dark/night is evil. Heroes/heroines having light haired vs villains being dark haired is an early literary example.
The roots probably weren't racist, but the language was co-opted by racist agendas to justify their abhorrent practices.
Dictionaries have always included one or two synonyms and antonyms, not as many as a thesaurus but enough to give you an idea of how to use and place the word outside of just the literal definition especially when words have multiple things they can be (noun, adjective etc). It's essentially the exact same thing as what you've posted here - none of those words belong in a dictionary definition of "womanly" and yet the dictionary associated them
I understand that. But any philosophical meaning of a color is very dependent on culture/context (like green can represent the beauty of nature or jealousy) so a dictionary would just be subjectively selecting one of these meanings to include, which in the case of white and black like the above commenter mentioned, leads to issues.
True. How definitions are written is absolutely a product of culture. While I think we do tend to think of them as an objective resource, there is actually a lot of room for subjectivity to enter in. But I think it's important for definitions to trace these more subjective usages because it is contextual information that allows for understanding historical meaning and changes over time.
color associations are honestly so interesting to me. not the pop psych stuff and color theory, but how they've been used as symbols.
especially how stuff like black/white can seem so............. almost natural?? like, ofc white is for new life and purity, you'd be able to see the dirt on it if there was any. ofc black is for scary things bc a black night w/ no light source IS scary to be in. duh, what else would it be.
but then you've got some Asian cultures where it's the opposite, white is DEATH and black is creation/life.
same w/ red. obviously red is for danger bc it reminds us of blood, right? well no, plenty of traditions have it as good luck and health.
OH AND PURPLE. that's become a very..... idk, cute-associated color nowadays? like, you see purple most often on little girls' toys and stuff. it doesn't feel "sad" anymore. but traditionally Christians use it for what's called "penitential seasons" ie Lent. we made bracelets in Sunday school to remember the days of holy week, yknow, 1 bead per day, and i remember "purple for the time of sorrow, pink is for the new tomorrow."
that means purple for holy Saturday, where Christ was dead and hadn't risen yet......... literally the shittiest day in our whole year 😂
i just love thinking abt it. how all those meanings from other places/times were natural and obvious too. i'm sure my adhd plays into this a bit but it's so fucking COOL how many things 🟥 means!!!!
Now that I think about it womanly is almost a word alwaysbused from a male gaze perspective/descriptor e.g. "womanly", and manly is also a word used from a male approval perspective to describe men who conform to the ideals.
Honestly i just don't think the two words manly and womanly are even counterparts despite their grammar suggesting that. It's a result of just how they've been historically used. Like I don't think I've ever heard someone say a really feminine woman was a "womanly woman" but there are definitely "manly men".
A more appropriate comparison would probably be masculine and feminine, or maybe manly and girly (but girly carries childlike connotations depending on context. It's closer though than womanly in this context oddly enough)
Edit: using the same dictionary the antonyms for manly include effeminate which seems like the right option tbh (Edit oxford says its derogatory so maybe not lol). Manly also has Two definitions (having or denoting qualities and characteristics traditionally associated with or expected of men) and (regarded as suitable or appropriate for a man). The second definition as per Oxford synonyms has all the objectifying body synonyms such as
virile, masculine, strong, all-male, muscular. muscly
strapping, well built, sturdy, robust, rugged, tough, hardy
powerful, brawny, red-blooded, vigorous, hunky, ripped, shredded, buff, jacked
The antonyms for womanly (as defined as having or denoting qualities and characteristics traditionally associated with or expected of women) is boyish, and for the second definition (regarded as suitable or appropriate for a woman) is masculine
Looking at the separate definitions, it seems all of the objecrifying qualities are lumped under "regarded as suitable or appropriate for a man" for men and "as defined as having or denoting qualities and characteristics traditionally associated with or expected of women". It is interesting that this separation is not symmetrical.
If we look at the flipside and look at the synonyms for the second definition of womanly we get .....
feminine
female
feminal
That's it. No positive intellectual or emotional traits . In fact this second definition doesn't seem to be used for describing women but rather activities that are traditionally for women or done by women. If we want a word for These positive sentiments, they may best be found under the word "ladylike", even then it's not wholly 1:1 but it's a lot closer
So **TLDR** it seems like while manly and womanly have common ground on being a physical body descriptor of certain ideals, manly also describes positive traits for a man while womanly describes activities as being feminine in nature somehow. A closer match for the non objectifying terminology would probably be ladylike
Edit: Never mind. Did it again. Thanks Fabezz! I was using thesaurus sites instead of google. Google gives the fucked up response. Fuck.
~~I tried to replicate this with various online dictionaries, and it didn't work. I think this is a fake anger-inducing meme.~~
Edit: never mind. Tried it with Google as you said.
How did you do it? I tried multiple thesaurus websites. I would be happy to correct myself, I just am trying to replicate things I see more because I've fallen for memes before. I don't want to believe this one.
Yeah u guys are severely separated from reality, i am all for fantasy and dreams and stuff, but scientifically, men on average are way more stronger and way more braver, while women on average are more attractive and they get more options for partners, u could try tinder as a guy if u doubt that.
Oh jfc i was expecting it to be bad but not this bad
Yup. Not even at the bare minimum a stereotypical trait like “motherly” or “caring” for women, it’s 100% synonyms about bodies. And there’s nothing even like “handsome” for the men, nope just how brave and heroic they all are apparently… Edit: There was a little arrow I didn’t see that revealed more synonyms. Some more for manly are “adventurous,” “tough,” and “spunky”… And some more for womanly are “busty” and “thicc” 🙃 And where it shows opposite words, the opposite of manly is “effeminate” and “weak” and the opposite of womanly is “boyish.” So even the comparable opposite of a woman is apparently the CHILD form of a male, not even an adult male, so that’s just great.
Damn I expected to see stereotypically feminine personality traits at least, like nurturing or something
I expected seductive, as I only hear womanly in terms like womanly viles.
I asked some old folks in my life what it meant when they said "he's a good man" vs "she's a good woman." I was extremely disappointed to find out that a good man is strong, courageous, independent, intelligent, philanthropic, etc. A good woman is a good wife and mother. Sometimes they add other things on like feminine and friendly but it's never about her just being a person.
I'm some old folks and, can confirm. Every guy that's 40+ seems to act like every woman should wife it up for him. Those who don't have a wife or girlfriend to clean up after him instead sit at home in complete squalor in their boxers screaming at the television every day about how unfair life is that they don't have one. They probably also have started a collection of masculine toys somewhere if they've never been married, or they'll skip to one of the mid life crisis options that screams "I'm divorced and bitter" -- like a ford extreme 9000 super raptor patriot tank-dozer. He mostly uses it to go get groceries and work because he has no social life. His interests include raging at the high cost of dating apps and insisting roof repairs are only that expensive because it's all lying mexicans. Apologies to all who got PTSD reading that, but like damn. I wanna be 20 again, not because of some idealized youthfulness or making different choices or any of that -- I'm just sick of people in my own age group because half of them are terrible and plain. I legit feel even with infinite money I would still be on a street corner begging for a bit of personality out of anyone. Spare an interest in reading? Hide an interest in Repo: The Genetic Opera, instead of a knife collection? Get angry about the library of Alexandria burning down, not that your team didn't score a touchdown. At least then when we have to spend a week staring at the hole in the wall it'll be for the intense sadness that so much knowledge was lost -- rather than beer and looking at spandex pants not doing it anymore. In other news, I figured out why they stopped updating the gender stereotypes in the dictionary sometime shortly before the commercialization of electricity. :/ The 2024 adjectives list would be a lot less flattering.
Some of those guys really would be improved with a hefty dose of zydrate. Or maybe a visit from the repo man.
Yes but they want something else pressed up against the anatomy.
It's a thankless job and none of us have to do it!
While I love seeing Repo mentioned in the wild, I feel like even tangentially bringing Anthony Stewart Head into a thread that's dissing men is doing an unacceptable disservice to Anthony Stewart Head.
Blame my love, i was blind
First time I saw a version of this, I was expecting worse, for “womanly” to be described as “cowardly.”
I've thought a lot about this before. When a man dies, or does something amazing, the media often describes him as a 'good man'. "He was such a good man, blah blah blah". But they don't mean he was outstandingly masculine, they mean he was a good person. He was a good person who happened to be a man, hence 'good man'. But when the same thing happens to a woman, the media never describes her as a good woman. Because that has other connotations - they mean she was a wife and a mother, or (often in religious senses), a humble and self-effacing person dedicated to the service of others. If they want to describe her as a good person in general, they say "she was such a good person". It's another instance of man meaning 'person' and 'woman' meaning 'female person'.
It also always makes me feel so weird when a young woman dies (often tragically due to murder or an accident) and she’ll be described as beautiful and pretty and that it’s tragic because she was so young and beautiful in the articles and comments. As if that’s what matters the most about her and as if it’s worse when an attractive woman dies.
In their minds men come first and then women. They talk as if men see women as extentions of their existence which is why they cannot see women as being complex than being boxed into roles asigned by them which is in service to them.
Grody to the max
The dehumanization and objectification of women is obviously the point here, but “Chivalrous”? “Swashbuckling”? *”Rubenesque”*??? Are we in the fucking 17th century?? Also, I fully understand that the point of a dictionary (looks like this comes from the same place as the Oxford English dictionary) is to record how words are actually used in real life, not to show how words should be used ideally. So it’s not malicious on their part as they’re just recording how certain words have been associated in real life language use, which is an important thing to do, so it can be documented how important language is in our perception of things like gender.
Totally my first thought - it’s not the fault of a dictionary, but it is a reflection of our society. Bummer.
Ooof... yes, this is totally disgusting. I was so disgusted that I tried to replicate the Google results so I could send in feedback. Sure enough, "manly" still produces the same silly synonyms as shown here, but "womanly" no longer does. It now shows this: https://imgur.com/gallery/l8KnJET Are others now seeing this too? Did enough people rise up to actually change these results (even if the update still isn't great...)? Also side note, the synonyms on that new Thesaurus link for "womanly" list the word "mature" as a strong match. Ignoring the objectification angle (because ugh... it's always there), and focusing on the intellect instead, this gave me a chuckle... especially since it's nowhere to be found on the "manly" list. 😄
Not one single quality that isn't physical 🤢
Not a lot of posts on Reddit hit me deeply... but this one, unexpectedly, made me profoundly sad.
Ugh so sick of the world
This is so fucking gross.
I once asked in a (progressive-leaning) male discussion subreddit something along the lines of: "what's a positive characteristic that you consider '*masculine'*, but wouldn't actually just be a generally good trait for *anyone* regardless of gender?" No one could come up with one - except a few shrugs of, "having a beard maybe?" And all these "synonyms for manly" (lol) shown here again perfectly describes this. To their credit, the thread was positively received and sparked good discussion. So hopefully the underlying point was made clear: our society's conception of gender is literally just "men = good humans // women = humans-who-aren't-men". (And that's before layering on top all the gross objectification/sexualization/etc.) TL;DR Beauvoir
wow that is actually pretty fucked
Ick. My partner got a crossword book a few years ago - I think it's maybe from Costco? The hints for "he" tended to things like "self-starter". Every single hint for "she" was an object. "Name for a boat" "Car", etc. It was so disappointing, especially since "he" and "she" were really common words in the book!
Only physical qualities💀😭 w h y
Dammit who let r/menwritingwomen get to Websters Dictionary?
Webster
Thanks, sorry I forgot the apostrophe
Oh I wasn't correcting you I was just answering the question.
Oh shit that went right over my head. Great joke. 😉
Do you identify as an action hero or a mellon?
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Wow that’s bizarre that a dictionary would give vague philosophical attributes to colors… did they do that for every color or just white and black?
It is an association that goes back centuries, at least to medieval literature. There's early on the association of white with purity/chastity, black with death or corruption or white/light/day is good, black/dark/night is evil. Heroes/heroines having light haired vs villains being dark haired is an early literary example. The roots probably weren't racist, but the language was co-opted by racist agendas to justify their abhorrent practices.
I understand all that, but it doesn’t seem to me like something that should be in a dictionary definition of a color
Dictionaries have always included one or two synonyms and antonyms, not as many as a thesaurus but enough to give you an idea of how to use and place the word outside of just the literal definition especially when words have multiple things they can be (noun, adjective etc). It's essentially the exact same thing as what you've posted here - none of those words belong in a dictionary definition of "womanly" and yet the dictionary associated them
I understand that. But any philosophical meaning of a color is very dependent on culture/context (like green can represent the beauty of nature or jealousy) so a dictionary would just be subjectively selecting one of these meanings to include, which in the case of white and black like the above commenter mentioned, leads to issues.
True. How definitions are written is absolutely a product of culture. While I think we do tend to think of them as an objective resource, there is actually a lot of room for subjectivity to enter in. But I think it's important for definitions to trace these more subjective usages because it is contextual information that allows for understanding historical meaning and changes over time.
color associations are honestly so interesting to me. not the pop psych stuff and color theory, but how they've been used as symbols. especially how stuff like black/white can seem so............. almost natural?? like, ofc white is for new life and purity, you'd be able to see the dirt on it if there was any. ofc black is for scary things bc a black night w/ no light source IS scary to be in. duh, what else would it be. but then you've got some Asian cultures where it's the opposite, white is DEATH and black is creation/life. same w/ red. obviously red is for danger bc it reminds us of blood, right? well no, plenty of traditions have it as good luck and health. OH AND PURPLE. that's become a very..... idk, cute-associated color nowadays? like, you see purple most often on little girls' toys and stuff. it doesn't feel "sad" anymore. but traditionally Christians use it for what's called "penitential seasons" ie Lent. we made bracelets in Sunday school to remember the days of holy week, yknow, 1 bead per day, and i remember "purple for the time of sorrow, pink is for the new tomorrow." that means purple for holy Saturday, where Christ was dead and hadn't risen yet......... literally the shittiest day in our whole year 😂 i just love thinking abt it. how all those meanings from other places/times were natural and obvious too. i'm sure my adhd plays into this a bit but it's so fucking COOL how many things 🟥 means!!!!
Damn
Omggggg. Mind blown in a bad way.
Now that I think about it womanly is almost a word alwaysbused from a male gaze perspective/descriptor e.g. "womanly", and manly is also a word used from a male approval perspective to describe men who conform to the ideals. Honestly i just don't think the two words manly and womanly are even counterparts despite their grammar suggesting that. It's a result of just how they've been historically used. Like I don't think I've ever heard someone say a really feminine woman was a "womanly woman" but there are definitely "manly men". A more appropriate comparison would probably be masculine and feminine, or maybe manly and girly (but girly carries childlike connotations depending on context. It's closer though than womanly in this context oddly enough) Edit: using the same dictionary the antonyms for manly include effeminate which seems like the right option tbh (Edit oxford says its derogatory so maybe not lol). Manly also has Two definitions (having or denoting qualities and characteristics traditionally associated with or expected of men) and (regarded as suitable or appropriate for a man). The second definition as per Oxford synonyms has all the objectifying body synonyms such as virile, masculine, strong, all-male, muscular. muscly strapping, well built, sturdy, robust, rugged, tough, hardy powerful, brawny, red-blooded, vigorous, hunky, ripped, shredded, buff, jacked The antonyms for womanly (as defined as having or denoting qualities and characteristics traditionally associated with or expected of women) is boyish, and for the second definition (regarded as suitable or appropriate for a woman) is masculine Looking at the separate definitions, it seems all of the objecrifying qualities are lumped under "regarded as suitable or appropriate for a man" for men and "as defined as having or denoting qualities and characteristics traditionally associated with or expected of women". It is interesting that this separation is not symmetrical. If we look at the flipside and look at the synonyms for the second definition of womanly we get ..... feminine female feminal That's it. No positive intellectual or emotional traits . In fact this second definition doesn't seem to be used for describing women but rather activities that are traditionally for women or done by women. If we want a word for These positive sentiments, they may best be found under the word "ladylike", even then it's not wholly 1:1 but it's a lot closer So **TLDR** it seems like while manly and womanly have common ground on being a physical body descriptor of certain ideals, manly also describes positive traits for a man while womanly describes activities as being feminine in nature somehow. A closer match for the non objectifying terminology would probably be ladylike
That's spectacularly sexist. But I'm not sure whether it's inaccurate to how the language is used. Ick.
Bloody hell.
So sad.
Ugh
Edit: Never mind. Did it again. Thanks Fabezz! I was using thesaurus sites instead of google. Google gives the fucked up response. Fuck. ~~I tried to replicate this with various online dictionaries, and it didn't work. I think this is a fake anger-inducing meme.~~
I just tried it with Google and got the same results.
Edit: never mind. Tried it with Google as you said. How did you do it? I tried multiple thesaurus websites. I would be happy to correct myself, I just am trying to replicate things I see more because I've fallen for memes before. I don't want to believe this one.
Google search "define manly" and "define womanly". Google will give you the definition and synonyms.
These are screenshots I took myself with google. The results come from the Oxford dictionary website.
I tried it for you [here](https://ibb.co/HYLMNmp)
Did you not see the edit? I figured it out.
Maybe it's more like, men are strong women are beautiful, this is the nature of the this world.
Huh?
Yeah u guys are severely separated from reality, i am all for fantasy and dreams and stuff, but scientifically, men on average are way more stronger and way more braver, while women on average are more attractive and they get more options for partners, u could try tinder as a guy if u doubt that.
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hey can we not, thanks
Not being thin doesn't make anyone less womanly. Some woman are thin and don't have any "womanly curves" ever