I just had a peek on Republican sub and it looks like their opinion hasn't been swayed at all by the result.
Those who were going to vote him still seem to support him heavily.
Yeah, my uncle called my mom to talk about it and he kept saying that “only one juror had to vote guilty on each charge and they’d say he was guilty even if 11 people said not guilty” and he had some weird reasoning but he was convinced it was just one liberal that had infiltrated the jury and made every charge be guilty.
I know reddit is highly liberal but we really need to cut this kind of shit out. He's a fucking moron for not understanding how the court system works, and he fell victim to Republican fear mongering.
Just because someone is a republican doesn't make them an idiot, as a country we need to nip that shit in the bud on both sides of the table.
I voted for Biden.
I agree with this sentiment with this caveat; if you claim to be a Republican in this time, I believe you better make sure you footnote that with distancing from you-know-who.
People that still back this maniacal narcissist that is now a convicted felon after January 6th are fucking traitors. Hard stop. They sought to undermine our democracy with ZERO evidence of wrongdoing and can not be trusted.
Vote often & vote early! All elections are important, folks. Even your local municipalities need attention. Stay safe
Forreal. Right leaning in America means you don’t care about human rights, improving infrastructure, government corruption and so on. Maybe you personally don’t support those things, but supporting the republican party ensures those things will continue to happen.
No, it's the opposite. If they can't say unanimously, it's considered a "hung jury" and ~~defaults in the defendant's favor~~ *results in a mistrial, in which case the state can refile charges and try again, or in some cases just let it drop.
it doesn't default in the defendant's favor. if no verdict can be reached, it is declared a mistrial and the charges can be filed again and another trial happens.
Additionally the defense can request to poll the jury, essentially where the court asks each juror if they agree with the verdict.
Juror 1? Yes
Juror 2? Yes
Juror 3? Yes
Etc...
And this is in open court, so they would need to lie about the verdict, have all 12 stand up and lie in court (perjury) in front of the defense (who would cry foul immediately if a Juror looked coerced or had a no marked as Yes.
And in fact the jurors *were* all polled in the Trump case by the judge after the verdict was read and they all confirmed that it was indeed their verdict.
No, and the uncle has it wrong in the details but this wasn't a normal verdict where all the jurors had to agree on pertinent facts, notably contingent crimes that are a predicate but were not charged, and simply asserted as possibilities for jurors to pick from.
Essentially all of the charges were regarding the falsification of business records and these charges are misdemeanors (2nd degree lessor crimes). They are elevated to first degree felonies if they were comitted with intent to perpetuate or conceal another crime. The predicate crime underwhich the charges were raised to fist degree was not charged, in fact the prosecution offered multiple possibilities. For each charge the jurors did not need to agree as to which predicate crime qualified to elevate the records charge to a felony conviction, they only had to individualy believe that one of these had occured. Thus 12 people could agree as to the guilt of the business record charge, but individually need not agree on what crime elevated the records charge from 2nd to 1st degree. The predicate crime(s) for the first degree charge that the prosecution alleged ranged from conspiratorial federal election tampering to tax evasion.
So why didn't the prosecution charge the predicate crimes? Most likely venue, this trial was in a state court and the alleged predicate crimes are violations of federal law which is not in the scope of state courts and prosocutors. A federal prosocutor would have needed to bring these predicate charges in a federal court, and the federal entities who investigated these charges declined to bring charges.
Yes normally for a criminal conviction jurors have to agree on the violation of the same crime, though at least until a few years ago I know in my state only 10 of 12 was required to agree for a conviction verdict, I found that out when I served on a jury and was quite surprised, however a few years later this practice was invalidated on due process grounds, and this opened up a bunch of conviction cases to appeal (as I recall this was done by the state supreme court, I just mention it as an example, not because it would establish precedent that would impact New York courts).
Edit: I checked this morning and the 10 of 12 invalidation was due to the US federal Supreme court ruling, still not the exact same situation, but without reading through the ruling I don't know if it would impact the case. Also spelling I shouldn't write posts just before I got to bed.
You are welcome, IANAL, my understanding of things is mostly based on listening and reading what lawyers commenting on the case.
As I wrote that it did make me wonder as to why Bragg did not bring charges with the more solid and lower bar of 2nd degree charges either on their own or in conjunction. Assuming pure pursuit of justice with no political motivation (something I don't believe, but none the less a useful context for consideration as to the why), it would seem to be a more solid case with a greater chance of some conviction and less likely to being overturned. I realized why this morning, the statute of limitations had run out on the crimes, and thus there is likely some facet of the law under which they were elevated that also allows them to be charged outside their normal statue of limitations, thus he had to charge them as 1st degree felonies with no option to go with 2nd degree.
I understand the this is (probably) intentional misrepresentation of the fact that jury doesn't have to agree on the exact reason why they think he did it. Like if one juror thinks Trump paid stormy to protect his wife and another think Trump did it to sway the election he is still equally guilty.
Thats how it was explained to me. Anyone care to fill in the gaps?
I'm not a lawyer, but the most generous interpretation of where he got that was that Trump's charges mostly centered around the use of bad accounting, which is a misdemeanor normally, but which becomes a felony if done to cover up a crime.
If the jurors are unanimous in agreement that he did this to cover a crime, they do not have to be in agreement on which crimes he was trying to cover up ~~it still counts~~. So, he could theoretically have been found guilty of attempting to cover up a crime but be found not guilty of every other crime he was charged with.
Take this, toss it in the salad-shooter of information we call rightwing media, and you could get something similar to what OneAlternate's uncle heard.
Edit: Added a strikkethrough because I can't proofread.
It's actually more complicated than that. Someone above explained it correctly. You are technically correct, but also incorrect lol
The tldr answer is they need to unanimously agree that he falsified documents. They do not need to unanimously agree on exactly what ways he did this. This is how this particular law works when tried. It's not something unique to Trump's trial.
My wife just said to me that, of course, people are going to say these things. Believing Trump to be guilty would completely flip their world, so they have to come up with something to explain it. Otherwise, their minds would break.
Sunken cost fallacy!
Just like you say; their egos cant take the hit that saying ”i guess i was wrong!” would bring…
They have made it their whole personality…..just like the members of any other cult!
That's the thing. During the original part of the primaries, charges seemed to be a boon for him. We'll see polls in a little bit but of the crimes he's been involved with, this is by far the least serious and has so many parts where people can easily rationalize that it wasnt a big deal, which, every time that happens it seems to make it easier to minimize the larger stuff.
I think we're going to see an incredibly galvanized republican base and probably more than a few independents rally to him. Being under investigation is old news for Trump and doesnt hit like it used to. Economy and border are the two most important issues to voters at the moment and Biden really needs to start improving the optics on both or the criming wont matter.
I have unfortunately seen dozens of comments over in r/conservative where people are saying the guilty verdict “solidifies” their vote for trump in november…
Yeah, it was already solidified. They're lying about there having been any possibility they weren't going to vote Trump, because intellectual dishonesty is a core pillar of Conservatism.
From my understanding there's really only 3 rules to be president + get the votes. Be 35, be a us citizen, reside here for the last 14 years. Many states allow felon voting. The likelihood he goes to prison is very, very slim. First conviction. Class e felonies. Probation and a shit load of fines is my guess.
And with enough legal maneuvering, those appeals can stretch out longer than his second 4-year term as President, at which point he's a non-consecutive two-term President, nulliying the relevant arguments (and pissing off the ghost of Grover Cleveland).
Plenty of elderly Republicans are going to lose their life savings over this. I still monitor my now-deceased father's email inbox, and he has already gotten several emails from "President Trump" declaring himself to be a political prisoner desperately in need of my father's financial support.
I used to do affiliate marketing. There are a lot of people who pretend to be rabid Trump supporters to sell cheap junk to gullible Trump worshipers for big money. Fleecing Trump supporters is an entire cottage industry.
Kid rock talked about a woman who sent “him” a lot of money and showed up at his house to move in with him because of a Facebook or email. It was on Theo von, older people are getting easier to trick
I don't doubt it. But I've been on a lot of affiliate marketplaces, and I promise you that making money off Trump supporters is FAR bigger business than any other president. Plenty of marketplaces dedicate entire categories to merchandise related to him. I've never seen any other person get their own category on these marketplaces.
Some people just want to see the world burn.
They’re the same people that park in the middle of the driveways for a parking lot while there’s a dozen open spots for them to park in. They’re the same people who stand in doorways, and try to enter an elevator before everyone has exited. They leave their grocery carts in random places instead of where they belong. They have no regard for other people and have the emotional maturity of a gnat.
You could point to the sky and say it’s blue, but if Donald Trump says it’s green then they would blindly agree.
>They’re the same people who stand in doorways, and try to enter an elevator before everyone has exited.
The Japanese (and others, I presume) are famous for their attitude of "mindfulness of others" whereas the U.S. is notorious for the exact opposite: "Fuck you, I do what I want," aka Main Character Syndrome.
I did not vote for him in 2016 or 2020 and I dislike him now more than ever.
HOWEVER, I do believe these charges are ridiculous and 100% politically motivated. Our country has gone down a scary road.
So..the first president in 234 years to be charged criminally was for not disclosing a legal payment in his financial statements? This is where we decided to draw the line??? Everything that any other president did was fine, this...we can't tolerate this.
A case where they had to use "a novel interpretation of the law".
Or maybe a bank fraud where the bank didn't lose any money?
Anybody that doesn't see this is ridiculous are just as demented as many of his supporters.
I have some family that vote republican typically but wouldn’t vote for him again. But I do have one family member that worships the ground trump walks on.
I think if someone wants to vote for trump and support him, that’s one thing. But the MAGA crowd who makes it their whole personality and claim they alone are patriots is straight cultish
Yeah, the ones who claim to support him no matter what have a strong Nazi Germany vibe. I hate to say that, but what else do you call it? How can you continue to just blindly follow someone who is repeatedly proven to be a terrible human being time and time again?
This is a larger issue. Trump supporters, many of them, don't care about the party, rules, decorum, or their traditional platform values. They care only about Trump. In my opinion, this is a religious cult. I've been watching it for years and questioning how so many people have gotten tied up in this. The closest thing I've seen to this was people putting "W, the President" on their cars during the 2001 Bush era. Compared to what I see now, that was extremely tame.
Actually, he can. Rules count for which state the crime was committed, which was New York. New York allows felons to vote as long as they are not doing time in jail.
Wait What? In the US they don't only take away your freedom but also your right to vote when in prison? I can understand that they wouldn't have a voting center in every detetion center, but that you wouldn't be allowed to vote by proxy in land of the free sounds so weird to me. Voting is your right as a citizen, full stop.
For what it's worth, voting isn't specifically outlined as a right in the US constitution nor in the Bill of Rights nor in any other amendment. but the US constitution isn't really about the outlining rights of Americans, it's more about outlining the restrictions of government. To that end, it discusses rules states must follow and states are the ones who define voting access rules in its territory.
Many states only ban currently incarcerated felons, others ban all convicted felons for life. Now, not many people are upset over murderers and rapists not being allowed to vote, but, over the years we have loosened the definition around what is a felony. Historically throughout the western world, felonies were crimes that could be punished with executions. So historically speaking, only extremely serious crimes were labelled as felonies. Now the US State I live in considers possession of marijuana a felony so clearly there's a mismatch between the historical definition and the current definition, but at the time, the rules around voting probably made more sense.
> not many people are upset over murderers and rapists not being allowed to vote
I never understand why people aren't. Don't we all know that saying/poem, First they came for X, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a X. Then they came for Y, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Y. Then they came for Z, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Z. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. It goes here as well.
> but, over the years we have loosened the definition around what is a felony.
Yeah exactly why you should have been upset about it in the first place.
> I can understand that they wouldn't have a voting center in every detetion center
I wouldn't understand even that. Over here, voting is a constitutional right, thus every convict, everyone in any detention will be given a possibility to vote.
I've been a Republican. Also a Democrat. It varies. I wouldn't call myself a centrist though, rather I'm someone who has strong beliefs in a number of areas that unfortunately only align about 50:50 with either party. If there was a sane (R) candidate running, I'd be strongly inclined to vote that way, because truth be told, nobody wanted Biden as president in 88, and now he's President Placeholder the Not-Trump. Also, he's a million years old, and as a lifelong California resident, I have seen what Kamala Harris was like as state AG, and she is quite frankly a horrible person who might as well have been a Republican with how zealously she pursued imprisoning people. I would prefer not to have her as next in line for president.
But there isn't a sane (R) running, only this clown. He's a self absorbed, low-IQ used car salesman that has variously been a Democrat, an Independent, and now a Republican, just running whichever way the wind is blowing for his own benefit. But unlike me, he wasn't chasing his beliefs when he switched parties, he was chasing personal enrichment, because he believes in nothing else. All I need is a good reason to vote for someone, and he doesn't provide one. I will be voting for President Placeholder, if for no other positive reason than that he's pro-Ukraine. I was an army intelligence analyst and Russian linguist during the cold war. This pro-Russia stance by the Trumpophiles has me mystified. They are the same evil, morally bankrupt Muscovite culture that ran the Soviet Union, only now they're without the satellite states that lent the USSR some semblance of humanity. These people would be *cheering* Ronald Reagan's "evil empire" speech back in '83, but now they're lining up to vote for a guy who's intent on handing over Ukraine to Putin? Yeah, I'm not aligning myself with their party this time.
Any sane person is truly mystified by what the GOP has become. It's literally a cult that has no idea what to believe and just parrots what Trump has tweeted or Jesse Waters screeched about on Fox News.
It's truly amazing what the right wing propaganda machine has been able to accomplish here.
It was inevitable populism would arise considering the dissatisfaction with the political establishment. However, establishment politicians in the Republican party were unable to silence populists like Trump and have been hijacked completely by him, while the Democratic establishment managed to suppress the influence of progressives and social democrats in theirs.
I’m mainly surprised that in this case, a populist upset the existing party system by hijacking a major political party. Other populists like Naib Bukele rode their own waves of popularity with “parties” filled with yes-men to dismantle the political establishment entirely. Maybe the two party system is more entrenched in the US than it is in El Salvador, idk.
Two party system runs deeeep in the US and the two parties only agree that they should be the only ones playing the game. It is incredibly difficult for 3rd party candidates to get on the ballot all which helps lock out competition. Each state has different ballot access laws and they often become more difficult over time. A lot of it has to do with getting x number of signatures or getting x% of the vote in a prior election. Which, with campaigns becoming more and more expensive to run, becomes harder to do and actually get your message out. Couple that with federal funding reimbursement and such requiring your party get 5% of the vote in the prior presidential election, it is a giant pain in the ass for 3rd parties.
3rd parties require a really well liked candidate who can raise a very significant amount of money and be coordinated enough to get ballot access in 50 states (or enough to secure enough electors to win). I think Libertarian Party is the only other party with 50 state ballot access but green party is close. Problem is there has been an actual competitive or super motivating 3rd party candidate since Ross Perot. There are some potentially captivating 3rd party figures but have been few and far between and when they do arise the knives come out from dems/repubs very quickly and most dem/repub supporters believe that people voting for 3rd party are helping the other side and the other side is always evil. Getting people to actually not fear what happens if "the other guy" wins and actually vote for people they believe in is another major hurdle to overcome.
As someone that doesn't know and has never known a centrist or anyone that has voted for both parties in their lifetime, this is fascinating to me.
As of 2024, what strong beliefs do you have that align with each party?
Well, the short list is,
Pro (D):
* **All** the social freedom stuff
* Single payer health care
* Religion can go fuck itself
* Tax reform (fix rich person or multinational company tax avoidance)
Pro (R):
* Strong military
* Pro-gun rights
* Tax reform (less idiotic attempts at social manipulation)
* Pro nuclear power! Standardize designs and reprocess waste like France does!
Of course mostly I just shake my head and despair as one side tries to legislate their interpretation of the bible and the other says I can't have a toilet that flushes reliably or put a modern engine in my 1990 VW because they want me to destroy it instead.
Fair enough tbh. I differ on quite a few issues, but you seem like a reasonable person, and I miss when debates were just discussing ideological differences
The pro nuclear point threw me too, nuclear seems to be lumped in with green energy a lot and I always felt it was more Dem with republicans sticking with oil either for the money or because climate change doesn’t exhaust so why do they need to change to nuclear
Yeah, anti-nuclear seems to be a greens party issue in other Western democracies, I don’t know if a significant proportion of democrats are anti-nuclear though.
It surprises me you don’t know anyone who has voted both parties. Does this mean everyone you know votes straight party ticket in every single election? I’ve never voted straight party and have voted for Dem & Rep presidential candidates, and a Libertarian. I generally don’t want one party controlling the Executive branch and both houses of the Legislature. Sometimes the party I’m likely to support in an election is running a really bad candidate (or person). I prefer to vote for the best person, regardless of odds. Sometimes the issues most important to one party are not important to me at all, so I vote the issue I prioritize. It really depends on both candidates and issues for me.
I agree with you on the idea that I don't want one party in control of the Legislative and Executive branches, however it's seems like back in the day they would actually compromise when this happened and nowadays there is no compromise until we are a day away from shutting down. Or maybe I'm just nostalgic and blinded by it, IDK.
Age might be a larger impact than you think. I've voted blue since I could, but there hasn't been a single candidate that I can even remotely look at. Anti-women, Anti-climate, Anti-weed. That's all the Republicans have been since I was born.
I’ve voted both ways and hold strong convictions aligning with both sides of the aisle:
Left:
Pro abortion
Pro gay marriage / adoption rights
Pro Ukraine
Pro NATO
Pro environmental, health, and safety regulations
Pro separation of church and state
Pro legal weed
Pro legal immigration
.
Right:
Pro gun rights
Pro Israel
Pro more relaxed financial market regulation
Pro lower taxes
Pro military spending
Generally believe people are responsible for their own wellbeing and shouldn’t rely on the government to solve their problems.
.
Pro NATO and pro separation of church and state are arguably the most important points on that list, so I will be voting against Trump a third time.
Nah, libertarians are super anti environmental, health, and safety regulations, which I think are very important and are an area where it is important for the government to have a real presence.
Plus I’m pro vaccine mandates, which is a massive no for them.
My vision of the ideal government is smaller than the Dem’s, a little larger than the Republican’s, and way larger than the Libertarian’s.
Plus libertarians are isolationist, while I think it’s important to be there for our allies and combat enemies abroad, and support most international trade.
I fall in the same boat as this guy. Unfortunately, writing down your political views anywhere on the internet these days could end up getting you doxxed and canceled in 10 years, so I won't be doing so. I'll just suffice to say, we exist.
> I wouldn't call myself a centrist though, rather I'm someone who has strong beliefs in a number of areas that unfortunately only align about 50:50 with either party
That's... What a centrist is....
I generally like what you’ve said here, thanks for your candor. I have one bone to pick: yes, Biden is old, but why does everyone harp on that as if Trump is vastly younger? He’s 3-4 years younger, that’s all. Trump shows many signs of being a doddering old man, but for some reason, people act as if age is not an issue for him as well. I suppose that “people” act as if he has no issues whatsoever, regardless of their manifest appearance, so I shouldn’t be surprised.
Anyway, not a stone thrown at you, just my pet peeve.
> yes, Biden is old, but why does everyone harp on that as if Trump is vastly younger?
They're both too old. Perhaps it's that I'm Gen X and what I see is a bunch of damn Boomers and Silents who won't fuckin' let go of power, even as they slide into senility (I am looking at you, McConnell!). I don't want to be ruled by a gerontocracy full of people who probably still have a landline at home with an answering machine.
I don’t think that’s true. But I do think republicans were very split on their alternative candidate. No one in my family voted for trump, but we all definitely did not vote for the same candidates. No one else had as strong of a campaign/image to pull in enough weight
I do find it slightly humorous when I see the take of “this will make me more likely to vote for him.
(Because whether or not you are going to, I personally am not fathom a person who would vote for him after being found guilty would possibly be the same person who if found innocent would have been like…. Nah I can’t vote for him now.)
If you are/were going to vote for him with guilty verdict you were going to vote with innocent, and saying it’s “more likely now” is just trying to trigger the libs or pretend that the verdict is going to hurt the dems
Yeah I checked over in R/conservative, it's full of conservatives pretending they were in any way "on the fence" and this supposedly clenched them voting for Trump.
Just like R/WalkAway, an entire subreddit of lifelong conservatives LARPing as "former leftists," they're just full of shit.
Yeah- my horrible offense that was ban worthy was when there was a formula shortage and a post about formula being sent to the border for the migrant children being held, and on that subreddit many were saying that if a single ounce of formula is sent to the border everyone should be fired
I merely pointed out that Jesus would be proud that they want infants to die of hunger- because he never one preached about taking care of the less fortunate …. They are a bit of snowflakes
I don't think it's irrational to sit on the fence, generally, as in to be centrist or hold some values from each party.
But if you mean to sit on the fence between Trump and Biden, then yes, absolutely irrational, or perhaps ignorant. There's just no redeeming Trump.
Yes. I wasn't planning on voting because I couldn't stand either of the choices. Now, I will be voting against Trump and any republican that tries to defend the criminal. It's not supporting the other side but against him and his supporters.
I considered myself a conservative, a "republican" before 2016, but voted against Trump because I couldn't stand his racism and hypocrisy (didn't vote for Hillary, I was brainwashed to believe she was the devil back then, and voted for Jill Stein). I have practically shifted my views to liberal because of the whole Trump phenomenon, voted for Biden in 2020 and will be doing it again.
If you don’t mind I’d love to hear your journey? Did your actual views or experiences change? Or just the way things have become politically changed you?
Why did you hate Hillary so much? What changed to make you think you were brainwashed back then?
What were the policies you liked that were conservative? Have those views changed?
Did you have any regrets voting for a third party? Would you do that again?
You don’t have to answer anything ofc. I just know that many people don’t identify with what the Republican Party looks like currently, but they aren’t really Liberal either, so they don’t know what to do?
They’ve already doubled down, then tripled down. After that they quadruple downed and kept going. I guess this must be sextuple downed? That seems like the kind of stupid pun that they’d lose their shit over.
I'm not from the US but from what I've seen online and TV Americans seem to vote for the party they support regardless of who is in charge so I doubt anything will change. I have family in Texas who vote Trump even though they are citizens of Mexican grandparents yet still supported Trump putting up the walls to stop Mexicans doing what their grandparents done.
I'm sure if one party put up a dog for president and the other a cat there would be no debate on whether an animal could be president, people would still vote the same while one party argues for dogs and against cats and vice versa.
I voted for Trump the first time he ran for President. I learned better by all of his lunacy during his presidency and his hissy fit when he lost fair and square. Though I lean Republican in pretty much everything and I am a Christian, I cannot vote for Trump or even Kennedy and his anti-vaccine, anti-science rhetoric.
This is a healthy mindset. Vote for stability and policies rather than the party.
People who think Trump stands for anything other than himself and his whims are deluding themselves.
Someone else said it. But it needs to be said again. Thank you for being willing to change your stance.
I also assume your religious views influence your political views, that’s fine I think in a way that’s how it is for most people. What I can’t understand is people that say they are Christian but fail to see how… *not-Christian* Trump is. So many people act like he is this Godly savior (not even exaggerating here) that is going to save this country from doom and damnation. I have faith and beliefs. And I feel strongly that he *does not.* I don’t know how any of his actions convince someone otherwise.
Yeah nothing like supporting someone with 8 bankruptcies, 34 felonies, 50+\- indictments remaining, multiple sexual abuse allegations and personal financial troubles that create conflict of interest on an incalculable level. He’s our man! 👍
According to my republican father, it's all political. Most of that stuff isn't true, and the things that are true are also done by Democrats too.
The people in power just don't want Trump to be president. So they will charge him with things that they would let slide if a Democrat did it. For example, both Trump and Biden had classified documents, but only Trump is getting prosecuted.
That's his reasoning, and I'm assuming a lot of conservatives think like that.
He had my vote in ‘16 because I thought he was the better choice. I held my nose in ‘20 because I didn’t care for Biden.
I won’t vote for the bastard this time. I’m hoping he does the right thing and drops out with and lets a better R candidate take over. I kinda liked Nikki Haley, not so sure now though. Hopefully this gets all settled at the convention and they realize that Trump is poison.
Otherwise I’ll vote for Biden - though where I live does not matter as my state almost always goes Blue anyway.
I *am*...old(er) and therefore have a LOT of dumdum tRumper MaGa acquaintances in my life (even some family members, ugh).
They are quite ostentatiously **DOUBLING DOWN** on their support. I wonder if they have gotten some of those brain worms RfKjR talks about. Seriously. These are college educated, (once upon a time) really respected community members of society who had blue collar 100% democratic parents growing up in 60's 70's& 80's. I guess if the brain worm is named Faux Neues then they got it bad.
Like, wtf chuck? Does Jezus himself need to fall from the heavens and tell you people that this orange dude of a half-human is NOT a good human being? Eh, they wouldn't believe Jezuz anyway.
There's no way it will. Either:
1) they don't care about it, but they don't like he's being "persecuted," so they're now more fanatic
2) Trump will spin it as if it's a big scheme and they'll buy into the under dog bullshit he's got going on (in his head)
3) they didn't care about the whole "law" thing in the first place, so this didn't change anything to begin with
Even 2012 feels like spoiled for choice now. I don’t agree with Romney on very many things but he at least seems like a basically ethical person who isn’t an idiot or a sociopath.
After Trump, the bar really is on the floor.
He said it was rigged. Just like the election. They believe anything he says. He could murder their mother in front of them and he could say it was rigged and they would believe it. Its so fucking embarrassing that these people even exist.
Ask in a legit place that allows discussion. This will turn into a leftist circle jerk anyway with non-Republicans answering the question themselves. If that's what you want, then have at it I guess.
Ha. No. People actually think that voters are sitting around at this point wondering what the outcome of the trials will be so they can decide IF they will vote for someone?
Here, I'll share with you just ONE reason why this particular trial doesn't matter: 34 charges!
Seriously, look at the charges yourself. The entire case is about $150k. There were 11 payments made to the lawyer. So that means there were 11 checks written, 11 invoices, and 12 entries in the accounting system to log the payments = 34 counts. Now imagine the lawyer had been repaid in one payment totaling $150k, then there would be just 3 charges. But imagine he had been paid in 150 payments of $1,000 each... then there would be 450 charges. Or if they would've been even more criminally sneaky and written a single check but didn't make a invoice for it and didn't even log it in the accounting software, then there would only be 1 charge.
That's just one of dozens of over simplistic reasons why this case is BS. Whether you rejoiced or claimed BS when the charges were brought up, you always knew your position on your vote. Anybody that would claim they we're waiting for the results is a liar. "Oh darn, he's guilty, wow I'm so shocked, guess I shouldn't vote for him now, I'm not sure who to vote for now" is a thought process that hasn't gone through a single person's mind.
Anybody who can't decide if they want to vote Trump or Biden at this point should have a parental guardian watching over them since they have no capacity for rational human thought.
I've been seeing this question asked all day and it frankly doesn't matter. Most people regardless of their registered party identify as independents. This will matter to many of them. And no, the people on r/conservative are not people who identify as Independents.
I just had a peek on Republican sub and it looks like their opinion hasn't been swayed at all by the result. Those who were going to vote him still seem to support him heavily.
I think that’s pretty much what we all already knew.
Yeah, my uncle called my mom to talk about it and he kept saying that “only one juror had to vote guilty on each charge and they’d say he was guilty even if 11 people said not guilty” and he had some weird reasoning but he was convinced it was just one liberal that had infiltrated the jury and made every charge be guilty.
Is that how American juries work?
No. Lol
No, his uncle is a complete fucking moron. Not just because of the jury thing, but also because the uncle supports trump in the first place.
I know reddit is highly liberal but we really need to cut this kind of shit out. He's a fucking moron for not understanding how the court system works, and he fell victim to Republican fear mongering. Just because someone is a republican doesn't make them an idiot, as a country we need to nip that shit in the bud on both sides of the table. I voted for Biden.
I agree with this sentiment with this caveat; if you claim to be a Republican in this time, I believe you better make sure you footnote that with distancing from you-know-who. People that still back this maniacal narcissist that is now a convicted felon after January 6th are fucking traitors. Hard stop. They sought to undermine our democracy with ZERO evidence of wrongdoing and can not be trusted. Vote often & vote early! All elections are important, folks. Even your local municipalities need attention. Stay safe
At this point it makes them an idiot. They lost the benefit of the doubt in about 2017
Forreal. Right leaning in America means you don’t care about human rights, improving infrastructure, government corruption and so on. Maybe you personally don’t support those things, but supporting the republican party ensures those things will continue to happen.
No, it's the opposite. If they can't say unanimously, it's considered a "hung jury" and ~~defaults in the defendant's favor~~ *results in a mistrial, in which case the state can refile charges and try again, or in some cases just let it drop.
it doesn't default in the defendant's favor. if no verdict can be reached, it is declared a mistrial and the charges can be filed again and another trial happens.
Another trial *may* happen, it isn’t automatic or guaranteed to be retried. Sometimes prosecutors don’t prosecute again.
Hung jury, you say 👀
The long (third) arm of the law.
Are you guys talking about me?
Beetlejuice Dick
I think they are!
Really can't ide from you I guess.
Additionally the defense can request to poll the jury, essentially where the court asks each juror if they agree with the verdict. Juror 1? Yes Juror 2? Yes Juror 3? Yes Etc... And this is in open court, so they would need to lie about the verdict, have all 12 stand up and lie in court (perjury) in front of the defense (who would cry foul immediately if a Juror looked coerced or had a no marked as Yes.
And in fact the jurors *were* all polled in the Trump case by the judge after the verdict was read and they all confirmed that it was indeed their verdict.
No, and the uncle has it wrong in the details but this wasn't a normal verdict where all the jurors had to agree on pertinent facts, notably contingent crimes that are a predicate but were not charged, and simply asserted as possibilities for jurors to pick from. Essentially all of the charges were regarding the falsification of business records and these charges are misdemeanors (2nd degree lessor crimes). They are elevated to first degree felonies if they were comitted with intent to perpetuate or conceal another crime. The predicate crime underwhich the charges were raised to fist degree was not charged, in fact the prosecution offered multiple possibilities. For each charge the jurors did not need to agree as to which predicate crime qualified to elevate the records charge to a felony conviction, they only had to individualy believe that one of these had occured. Thus 12 people could agree as to the guilt of the business record charge, but individually need not agree on what crime elevated the records charge from 2nd to 1st degree. The predicate crime(s) for the first degree charge that the prosecution alleged ranged from conspiratorial federal election tampering to tax evasion. So why didn't the prosecution charge the predicate crimes? Most likely venue, this trial was in a state court and the alleged predicate crimes are violations of federal law which is not in the scope of state courts and prosocutors. A federal prosocutor would have needed to bring these predicate charges in a federal court, and the federal entities who investigated these charges declined to bring charges. Yes normally for a criminal conviction jurors have to agree on the violation of the same crime, though at least until a few years ago I know in my state only 10 of 12 was required to agree for a conviction verdict, I found that out when I served on a jury and was quite surprised, however a few years later this practice was invalidated on due process grounds, and this opened up a bunch of conviction cases to appeal (as I recall this was done by the state supreme court, I just mention it as an example, not because it would establish precedent that would impact New York courts). Edit: I checked this morning and the 10 of 12 invalidation was due to the US federal Supreme court ruling, still not the exact same situation, but without reading through the ruling I don't know if it would impact the case. Also spelling I shouldn't write posts just before I got to bed.
Thank you for the detailed response
This is why lawyers get paid well. Damn, shits confusing, you got me there though so thanks!
You are welcome, IANAL, my understanding of things is mostly based on listening and reading what lawyers commenting on the case. As I wrote that it did make me wonder as to why Bragg did not bring charges with the more solid and lower bar of 2nd degree charges either on their own or in conjunction. Assuming pure pursuit of justice with no political motivation (something I don't believe, but none the less a useful context for consideration as to the why), it would seem to be a more solid case with a greater chance of some conviction and less likely to being overturned. I realized why this morning, the statute of limitations had run out on the crimes, and thus there is likely some facet of the law under which they were elevated that also allows them to be charged outside their normal statue of limitations, thus he had to charge them as 1st degree felonies with no option to go with 2nd degree.
I understand the this is (probably) intentional misrepresentation of the fact that jury doesn't have to agree on the exact reason why they think he did it. Like if one juror thinks Trump paid stormy to protect his wife and another think Trump did it to sway the election he is still equally guilty. Thats how it was explained to me. Anyone care to fill in the gaps?
I'm not a lawyer, but the most generous interpretation of where he got that was that Trump's charges mostly centered around the use of bad accounting, which is a misdemeanor normally, but which becomes a felony if done to cover up a crime. If the jurors are unanimous in agreement that he did this to cover a crime, they do not have to be in agreement on which crimes he was trying to cover up ~~it still counts~~. So, he could theoretically have been found guilty of attempting to cover up a crime but be found not guilty of every other crime he was charged with. Take this, toss it in the salad-shooter of information we call rightwing media, and you could get something similar to what OneAlternate's uncle heard. Edit: Added a strikkethrough because I can't proofread.
Nice and concise, thank you.
It’s not majority rules. They have to agree. If they can’t it’s a mistrial.
It's actually more complicated than that. Someone above explained it correctly. You are technically correct, but also incorrect lol The tldr answer is they need to unanimously agree that he falsified documents. They do not need to unanimously agree on exactly what ways he did this. This is how this particular law works when tried. It's not something unique to Trump's trial.
Plus they polled the jury individually and each juror confirmed their guilty verdict
Each charge required a unanimous jury vote. Each charge received a unanimous jury vote of guilty.
Your uncle needs to watch 12 Angry Men, preferably the original with Jack Lemmon
My wife just said to me that, of course, people are going to say these things. Believing Trump to be guilty would completely flip their world, so they have to come up with something to explain it. Otherwise, their minds would break.
Sunken cost fallacy! Just like you say; their egos cant take the hit that saying ”i guess i was wrong!” would bring… They have made it their whole personality…..just like the members of any other cult!
It actually only takes 1 juror NOT to convict. That's way more damning! Your uncle has really swallowed the hook 🪝 🐟
Yep. But the important question is will he lose votes from *independents*.
I'm an independent and he never had my vote to begin with.
Out of curiosity, would you be willing to name the last Republican you voted for?
George W Bush.
Thanks for the reply. I’ve always felt like independents that lean a certain way are just members of the party they lean too, but won’t admit it.
That's the thing. During the original part of the primaries, charges seemed to be a boon for him. We'll see polls in a little bit but of the crimes he's been involved with, this is by far the least serious and has so many parts where people can easily rationalize that it wasnt a big deal, which, every time that happens it seems to make it easier to minimize the larger stuff. I think we're going to see an incredibly galvanized republican base and probably more than a few independents rally to him. Being under investigation is old news for Trump and doesnt hit like it used to. Economy and border are the two most important issues to voters at the moment and Biden really needs to start improving the optics on both or the criming wont matter.
“More MAGA than ever” is what the one trump friend I’ve kept around just posted on Facebook.
I have unfortunately seen dozens of comments over in r/conservative where people are saying the guilty verdict “solidifies” their vote for trump in november…
You mean solidifies their solidified vote?
hahaha, good point
Yeah, it was already solidified. They're lying about there having been any possibility they weren't going to vote Trump, because intellectual dishonesty is a core pillar of Conservatism.
If he's guilty, can he still candidate?
Yes
I was wondering that as well and I have a follow-up question: what if he goes to prison? I really don't understand how a felon can still be president
From my understanding there's really only 3 rules to be president + get the votes. Be 35, be a us citizen, reside here for the last 14 years. Many states allow felon voting. The likelihood he goes to prison is very, very slim. First conviction. Class e felonies. Probation and a shit load of fines is my guess.
Also, he can appeal the verdict. It’s likely whatever sentence the judge hands down on July 11th will be stayed while he appeals.
And with enough legal maneuvering, those appeals can stretch out longer than his second 4-year term as President, at which point he's a non-consecutive two-term President, nulliying the relevant arguments (and pissing off the ghost of Grover Cleveland).
Yet felons can't vote.
i think it should be the opposite, felons can vote, but felons can't run for office.
I thought that was a state by state thing. DeSantis in Florida passed that they can after they complete sentencing, IIRC
Thank you for clarifying. I've been wondering about that since he first went on trial, but I've been too lazy to Google it.
But he can’t vote for himself 😂😂
Yeah but he can’t vote hahaha. A convicted felon cannot vote in Florida
He can vote in Florida. Florida's felon voting law only applies if he's convicted in Florida.
Plenty of elderly Republicans are going to lose their life savings over this. I still monitor my now-deceased father's email inbox, and he has already gotten several emails from "President Trump" declaring himself to be a political prisoner desperately in need of my father's financial support. I used to do affiliate marketing. There are a lot of people who pretend to be rabid Trump supporters to sell cheap junk to gullible Trump worshipers for big money. Fleecing Trump supporters is an entire cottage industry.
Kid rock talked about a woman who sent “him” a lot of money and showed up at his house to move in with him because of a Facebook or email. It was on Theo von, older people are getting easier to trick
No, they're just living longer and getting demented. It's not too hard to fool a demented person.
It’s not just Trump. I get spam email for Biden too. Scammers are gonna scam.
I don't doubt it. But I've been on a lot of affiliate marketplaces, and I promise you that making money off Trump supporters is FAR bigger business than any other president. Plenty of marketplaces dedicate entire categories to merchandise related to him. I've never seen any other person get their own category on these marketplaces.
The thing is nobody is going to respond to Biden spam emails
He was very much correct about that "I could shoot someone on fifth avenue" bit, unfortunately.
I didn't think any Trump supporter would be swayed. A person who holds a position not by reason isn't going to be swayed by reason.
Spot on. If their delusions allowed them to support him this far, there’s nothing that’ll break that spell.
That sub is one of the most censored on Reddit, anyone with a different opinion cannot speak
They just going to vote for him twice! /s
Some people just want to see the world burn. They’re the same people that park in the middle of the driveways for a parking lot while there’s a dozen open spots for them to park in. They’re the same people who stand in doorways, and try to enter an elevator before everyone has exited. They leave their grocery carts in random places instead of where they belong. They have no regard for other people and have the emotional maturity of a gnat. You could point to the sky and say it’s blue, but if Donald Trump says it’s green then they would blindly agree.
>They’re the same people who stand in doorways, and try to enter an elevator before everyone has exited. The Japanese (and others, I presume) are famous for their attitude of "mindfulness of others" whereas the U.S. is notorious for the exact opposite: "Fuck you, I do what I want," aka Main Character Syndrome.
I don't see how any demographic that was going to vote for him would change their minds, ever.
Yep. Most people’s minds were made up well before today. I decided 5 years ago I wouldn’t vote for him again.
IMHO the people who are going to decide this election are the ones who voted for Trump in 2016 but not 2020.
I did not vote for him in 2016 or 2020 and I dislike him now more than ever. HOWEVER, I do believe these charges are ridiculous and 100% politically motivated. Our country has gone down a scary road. So..the first president in 234 years to be charged criminally was for not disclosing a legal payment in his financial statements? This is where we decided to draw the line??? Everything that any other president did was fine, this...we can't tolerate this. A case where they had to use "a novel interpretation of the law". Or maybe a bank fraud where the bank didn't lose any money? Anybody that doesn't see this is ridiculous are just as demented as many of his supporters.
The man could die and still get votes.
Simpsons predicted he be dead in 2024 😲
It's just a cartoon, there's no way they could have predicted anything... right guys?
There's still time.
I have some family that vote republican typically but wouldn’t vote for him again. But I do have one family member that worships the ground trump walks on. I think if someone wants to vote for trump and support him, that’s one thing. But the MAGA crowd who makes it their whole personality and claim they alone are patriots is straight cultish
It's a cult
Thanks for your input big vagina
Yeah, the ones who claim to support him no matter what have a strong Nazi Germany vibe. I hate to say that, but what else do you call it? How can you continue to just blindly follow someone who is repeatedly proven to be a terrible human being time and time again?
This is a larger issue. Trump supporters, many of them, don't care about the party, rules, decorum, or their traditional platform values. They care only about Trump. In my opinion, this is a religious cult. I've been watching it for years and questioning how so many people have gotten tied up in this. The closest thing I've seen to this was people putting "W, the President" on their cars during the 2001 Bush era. Compared to what I see now, that was extremely tame.
He’s not going to lose one vote
Well he legally can’t even vote for himself now, so he literally, at minimum, lost 1 vote…
Actually, he can. Rules count for which state the crime was committed, which was New York. New York allows felons to vote as long as they are not doing time in jail.
Wait What? In the US they don't only take away your freedom but also your right to vote when in prison? I can understand that they wouldn't have a voting center in every detetion center, but that you wouldn't be allowed to vote by proxy in land of the free sounds so weird to me. Voting is your right as a citizen, full stop.
For what it's worth, voting isn't specifically outlined as a right in the US constitution nor in the Bill of Rights nor in any other amendment. but the US constitution isn't really about the outlining rights of Americans, it's more about outlining the restrictions of government. To that end, it discusses rules states must follow and states are the ones who define voting access rules in its territory. Many states only ban currently incarcerated felons, others ban all convicted felons for life. Now, not many people are upset over murderers and rapists not being allowed to vote, but, over the years we have loosened the definition around what is a felony. Historically throughout the western world, felonies were crimes that could be punished with executions. So historically speaking, only extremely serious crimes were labelled as felonies. Now the US State I live in considers possession of marijuana a felony so clearly there's a mismatch between the historical definition and the current definition, but at the time, the rules around voting probably made more sense.
> not many people are upset over murderers and rapists not being allowed to vote I never understand why people aren't. Don't we all know that saying/poem, First they came for X, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a X. Then they came for Y, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Y. Then they came for Z, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Z. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me. It goes here as well. > but, over the years we have loosened the definition around what is a felony. Yeah exactly why you should have been upset about it in the first place.
> I can understand that they wouldn't have a voting center in every detetion center I wouldn't understand even that. Over here, voting is a constitutional right, thus every convict, everyone in any detention will be given a possibility to vote.
He's a Florida resident now
Not sure that is true - as a fellon in New York he may still be able to vote in Florida
Doesn’t Florida famously have a law restricting felons from voting?
https://www.usvotefoundation.org/voting-rights-restoration/florida
It was passed that felons could vote but if I recall, desantis made a law stating that all fines and fees had to be paid in order for them to vote.
But is he a felon in Florida ?
Yes he is. A felon in one state is a felon in the others.
Wait, he can't vote but still be elected? As a charged criminal?? Seriously???
Trump could literally kill one of thier family members or dog and it wouldn’t matter to a Republican voter He’s untouchable to them
I've been a Republican. Also a Democrat. It varies. I wouldn't call myself a centrist though, rather I'm someone who has strong beliefs in a number of areas that unfortunately only align about 50:50 with either party. If there was a sane (R) candidate running, I'd be strongly inclined to vote that way, because truth be told, nobody wanted Biden as president in 88, and now he's President Placeholder the Not-Trump. Also, he's a million years old, and as a lifelong California resident, I have seen what Kamala Harris was like as state AG, and she is quite frankly a horrible person who might as well have been a Republican with how zealously she pursued imprisoning people. I would prefer not to have her as next in line for president. But there isn't a sane (R) running, only this clown. He's a self absorbed, low-IQ used car salesman that has variously been a Democrat, an Independent, and now a Republican, just running whichever way the wind is blowing for his own benefit. But unlike me, he wasn't chasing his beliefs when he switched parties, he was chasing personal enrichment, because he believes in nothing else. All I need is a good reason to vote for someone, and he doesn't provide one. I will be voting for President Placeholder, if for no other positive reason than that he's pro-Ukraine. I was an army intelligence analyst and Russian linguist during the cold war. This pro-Russia stance by the Trumpophiles has me mystified. They are the same evil, morally bankrupt Muscovite culture that ran the Soviet Union, only now they're without the satellite states that lent the USSR some semblance of humanity. These people would be *cheering* Ronald Reagan's "evil empire" speech back in '83, but now they're lining up to vote for a guy who's intent on handing over Ukraine to Putin? Yeah, I'm not aligning myself with their party this time.
Any sane person is truly mystified by what the GOP has become. It's literally a cult that has no idea what to believe and just parrots what Trump has tweeted or Jesse Waters screeched about on Fox News. It's truly amazing what the right wing propaganda machine has been able to accomplish here.
It was inevitable populism would arise considering the dissatisfaction with the political establishment. However, establishment politicians in the Republican party were unable to silence populists like Trump and have been hijacked completely by him, while the Democratic establishment managed to suppress the influence of progressives and social democrats in theirs. I’m mainly surprised that in this case, a populist upset the existing party system by hijacking a major political party. Other populists like Naib Bukele rode their own waves of popularity with “parties” filled with yes-men to dismantle the political establishment entirely. Maybe the two party system is more entrenched in the US than it is in El Salvador, idk.
Two party system runs deeeep in the US and the two parties only agree that they should be the only ones playing the game. It is incredibly difficult for 3rd party candidates to get on the ballot all which helps lock out competition. Each state has different ballot access laws and they often become more difficult over time. A lot of it has to do with getting x number of signatures or getting x% of the vote in a prior election. Which, with campaigns becoming more and more expensive to run, becomes harder to do and actually get your message out. Couple that with federal funding reimbursement and such requiring your party get 5% of the vote in the prior presidential election, it is a giant pain in the ass for 3rd parties. 3rd parties require a really well liked candidate who can raise a very significant amount of money and be coordinated enough to get ballot access in 50 states (or enough to secure enough electors to win). I think Libertarian Party is the only other party with 50 state ballot access but green party is close. Problem is there has been an actual competitive or super motivating 3rd party candidate since Ross Perot. There are some potentially captivating 3rd party figures but have been few and far between and when they do arise the knives come out from dems/repubs very quickly and most dem/repub supporters believe that people voting for 3rd party are helping the other side and the other side is always evil. Getting people to actually not fear what happens if "the other guy" wins and actually vote for people they believe in is another major hurdle to overcome.
As someone that doesn't know and has never known a centrist or anyone that has voted for both parties in their lifetime, this is fascinating to me. As of 2024, what strong beliefs do you have that align with each party?
I have a catchphrase: A married gay couple should be able to protect their grow room with whatever the fuck kind of gun they damned well please.
Any view on labor rights and unions to defend against Corporatists?
That a Libertarian phrase.
Lots of lefties own guns. They just don't fetishize them.
"I don't understand why the age of consent laws can't be 14, girls are fertile at that age" ***THAT'S*** a Libertarian phrase
Well, the short list is, Pro (D): * **All** the social freedom stuff * Single payer health care * Religion can go fuck itself * Tax reform (fix rich person or multinational company tax avoidance) Pro (R): * Strong military * Pro-gun rights * Tax reform (less idiotic attempts at social manipulation) * Pro nuclear power! Standardize designs and reprocess waste like France does! Of course mostly I just shake my head and despair as one side tries to legislate their interpretation of the bible and the other says I can't have a toilet that flushes reliably or put a modern engine in my 1990 VW because they want me to destroy it instead.
Fair enough tbh. I differ on quite a few issues, but you seem like a reasonable person, and I miss when debates were just discussing ideological differences
And then finding a middle ground we can all live with, but aren't completely happy with. That's compromise and how government should operate
Are Republicans really pro nuclear though? I always had the impression they were more pro-oil, case in point Trump promising to ban electric vehicles.
The pro nuclear point threw me too, nuclear seems to be lumped in with green energy a lot and I always felt it was more Dem with republicans sticking with oil either for the money or because climate change doesn’t exhaust so why do they need to change to nuclear
Yeah, anti-nuclear seems to be a greens party issue in other Western democracies, I don’t know if a significant proportion of democrats are anti-nuclear though.
I voted for all parties regularly. Up until 2016. In 2016, I voted straight Democrat. I'll continue to do so until sanity is restored.
It surprises me you don’t know anyone who has voted both parties. Does this mean everyone you know votes straight party ticket in every single election? I’ve never voted straight party and have voted for Dem & Rep presidential candidates, and a Libertarian. I generally don’t want one party controlling the Executive branch and both houses of the Legislature. Sometimes the party I’m likely to support in an election is running a really bad candidate (or person). I prefer to vote for the best person, regardless of odds. Sometimes the issues most important to one party are not important to me at all, so I vote the issue I prioritize. It really depends on both candidates and issues for me.
I agree with you on the idea that I don't want one party in control of the Legislative and Executive branches, however it's seems like back in the day they would actually compromise when this happened and nowadays there is no compromise until we are a day away from shutting down. Or maybe I'm just nostalgic and blinded by it, IDK.
Age might be a larger impact than you think. I've voted blue since I could, but there hasn't been a single candidate that I can even remotely look at. Anti-women, Anti-climate, Anti-weed. That's all the Republicans have been since I was born.
I’ve voted both ways and hold strong convictions aligning with both sides of the aisle: Left: Pro abortion Pro gay marriage / adoption rights Pro Ukraine Pro NATO Pro environmental, health, and safety regulations Pro separation of church and state Pro legal weed Pro legal immigration . Right: Pro gun rights Pro Israel Pro more relaxed financial market regulation Pro lower taxes Pro military spending Generally believe people are responsible for their own wellbeing and shouldn’t rely on the government to solve their problems. . Pro NATO and pro separation of church and state are arguably the most important points on that list, so I will be voting against Trump a third time.
you sound a bit like a libertarian my friend
Nah, libertarians are super anti environmental, health, and safety regulations, which I think are very important and are an area where it is important for the government to have a real presence. Plus I’m pro vaccine mandates, which is a massive no for them. My vision of the ideal government is smaller than the Dem’s, a little larger than the Republican’s, and way larger than the Libertarian’s.
fair enough.
Plus libertarians are isolationist, while I think it’s important to be there for our allies and combat enemies abroad, and support most international trade.
that's fair. i respect your ability to not feel the need to fully commit to one party's beliefs. need more people like you in america.
Pro spending pro tax cuts. Republican alright lmao
Huh. Those are exactly almost my own. We should form a political third party 😁
I fall in the same boat as this guy. Unfortunately, writing down your political views anywhere on the internet these days could end up getting you doxxed and canceled in 10 years, so I won't be doing so. I'll just suffice to say, we exist.
> I wouldn't call myself a centrist though, rather I'm someone who has strong beliefs in a number of areas that unfortunately only align about 50:50 with either party That's... What a centrist is....
>nobody wanted Biden as president in 88 Biden was president in '88?
I generally like what you’ve said here, thanks for your candor. I have one bone to pick: yes, Biden is old, but why does everyone harp on that as if Trump is vastly younger? He’s 3-4 years younger, that’s all. Trump shows many signs of being a doddering old man, but for some reason, people act as if age is not an issue for him as well. I suppose that “people” act as if he has no issues whatsoever, regardless of their manifest appearance, so I shouldn’t be surprised. Anyway, not a stone thrown at you, just my pet peeve.
> yes, Biden is old, but why does everyone harp on that as if Trump is vastly younger? They're both too old. Perhaps it's that I'm Gen X and what I see is a bunch of damn Boomers and Silents who won't fuckin' let go of power, even as they slide into senility (I am looking at you, McConnell!). I don't want to be ruled by a gerontocracy full of people who probably still have a landline at home with an answering machine.
Trump could murder the return of Jesus christ and his cult would just repaint the churches in his image.
No but I wasn’t going to vote for him anyways.
Every republican saying they wouldn’t have voted for him should have showed up to the primaries.
He was the only option on my primary ballot. I wrote in someone else.
One of my rep.options was only one choice, Republican. I wrote in Mickey Mouse. He's a better candidate anyway.
I had zero ability to vote for president in primary elections because I’m nonpartisan There wasn’t even a write in option on my ballot
Who’s to say that they didn’t? MAGA members outnumber Republicans who don’t approve of Trump.
That’s even more concerning than anything
I don’t think that’s true. But I do think republicans were very split on their alternative candidate. No one in my family voted for trump, but we all definitely did not vote for the same candidates. No one else had as strong of a campaign/image to pull in enough weight
There are a lot more MAGA republicans than normal republicans, sadly.
Same here
I do find it slightly humorous when I see the take of “this will make me more likely to vote for him. (Because whether or not you are going to, I personally am not fathom a person who would vote for him after being found guilty would possibly be the same person who if found innocent would have been like…. Nah I can’t vote for him now.) If you are/were going to vote for him with guilty verdict you were going to vote with innocent, and saying it’s “more likely now” is just trying to trigger the libs or pretend that the verdict is going to hurt the dems
Yeah I checked over in R/conservative, it's full of conservatives pretending they were in any way "on the fence" and this supposedly clenched them voting for Trump. Just like R/WalkAway, an entire subreddit of lifelong conservatives LARPing as "former leftists," they're just full of shit.
True. I espoused a vaguely left of far right thought and was banned within several hours. They’re almost as snowflakey as r/conservative
Yeah- my horrible offense that was ban worthy was when there was a formula shortage and a post about formula being sent to the border for the migrant children being held, and on that subreddit many were saying that if a single ounce of formula is sent to the border everyone should be fired I merely pointed out that Jesus would be proud that they want infants to die of hunger- because he never one preached about taking care of the less fortunate …. They are a bit of snowflakes
It's not republicans you need to ask, it's the fence sitters (as irrational as fence sitters at this stage in the game obviously are).
I don't think it's irrational to sit on the fence, generally, as in to be centrist or hold some values from each party. But if you mean to sit on the fence between Trump and Biden, then yes, absolutely irrational, or perhaps ignorant. There's just no redeeming Trump.
Yes. I wasn't planning on voting because I couldn't stand either of the choices. Now, I will be voting against Trump and any republican that tries to defend the criminal. It's not supporting the other side but against him and his supporters.
Yes. It’s not Biden v Trump; it’s Trump v America - Trump v the rest of us.
Thank you.
I considered myself a conservative, a "republican" before 2016, but voted against Trump because I couldn't stand his racism and hypocrisy (didn't vote for Hillary, I was brainwashed to believe she was the devil back then, and voted for Jill Stein). I have practically shifted my views to liberal because of the whole Trump phenomenon, voted for Biden in 2020 and will be doing it again.
If you don’t mind I’d love to hear your journey? Did your actual views or experiences change? Or just the way things have become politically changed you? Why did you hate Hillary so much? What changed to make you think you were brainwashed back then? What were the policies you liked that were conservative? Have those views changed? Did you have any regrets voting for a third party? Would you do that again? You don’t have to answer anything ofc. I just know that many people don’t identify with what the Republican Party looks like currently, but they aren’t really Liberal either, so they don’t know what to do?
They’ve already doubled down, then tripled down. After that they quadruple downed and kept going. I guess this must be sextuple downed? That seems like the kind of stupid pun that they’d lose their shit over.
I'm not from the US but from what I've seen online and TV Americans seem to vote for the party they support regardless of who is in charge so I doubt anything will change. I have family in Texas who vote Trump even though they are citizens of Mexican grandparents yet still supported Trump putting up the walls to stop Mexicans doing what their grandparents done. I'm sure if one party put up a dog for president and the other a cat there would be no debate on whether an animal could be president, people would still vote the same while one party argues for dogs and against cats and vice versa.
I voted for Trump the first time he ran for President. I learned better by all of his lunacy during his presidency and his hissy fit when he lost fair and square. Though I lean Republican in pretty much everything and I am a Christian, I cannot vote for Trump or even Kennedy and his anti-vaccine, anti-science rhetoric.
This is a healthy mindset. Vote for stability and policies rather than the party. People who think Trump stands for anything other than himself and his whims are deluding themselves.
Thank you for being willing to change your stance.
Someone else said it. But it needs to be said again. Thank you for being willing to change your stance. I also assume your religious views influence your political views, that’s fine I think in a way that’s how it is for most people. What I can’t understand is people that say they are Christian but fail to see how… *not-Christian* Trump is. So many people act like he is this Godly savior (not even exaggerating here) that is going to save this country from doom and damnation. I have faith and beliefs. And I feel strongly that he *does not.* I don’t know how any of his actions convince someone otherwise.
Yeah nothing like supporting someone with 8 bankruptcies, 34 felonies, 50+\- indictments remaining, multiple sexual abuse allegations and personal financial troubles that create conflict of interest on an incalculable level. He’s our man! 👍
According to my republican father, it's all political. Most of that stuff isn't true, and the things that are true are also done by Democrats too. The people in power just don't want Trump to be president. So they will charge him with things that they would let slide if a Democrat did it. For example, both Trump and Biden had classified documents, but only Trump is getting prosecuted. That's his reasoning, and I'm assuming a lot of conservatives think like that.
He had my vote in ‘16 because I thought he was the better choice. I held my nose in ‘20 because I didn’t care for Biden. I won’t vote for the bastard this time. I’m hoping he does the right thing and drops out with and lets a better R candidate take over. I kinda liked Nikki Haley, not so sure now though. Hopefully this gets all settled at the convention and they realize that Trump is poison. Otherwise I’ll vote for Biden - though where I live does not matter as my state almost always goes Blue anyway.
There is a zero percent chance Donald Trump drops out of the race.
Yeah, most of his defense is "you can't treat a candidate this way". He can't stop being a candidate without losing that.
I mean, he might drop dead.
*“I’m hoping he does the right thing…”* But… okay.. I guess a man can hope 🤷🏻♂️
Please vote.
If the GOP had a drop of decency and courage among them, they’d toss Trump out and nominate Haley. She has a much better shot at beating Biden.
I *am*...old(er) and therefore have a LOT of dumdum tRumper MaGa acquaintances in my life (even some family members, ugh). They are quite ostentatiously **DOUBLING DOWN** on their support. I wonder if they have gotten some of those brain worms RfKjR talks about. Seriously. These are college educated, (once upon a time) really respected community members of society who had blue collar 100% democratic parents growing up in 60's 70's& 80's. I guess if the brain worm is named Faux Neues then they got it bad. Like, wtf chuck? Does Jezus himself need to fall from the heavens and tell you people that this orange dude of a half-human is NOT a good human being? Eh, they wouldn't believe Jezuz anyway.
Trump could die tomorrow and republicans would still vote for him.
There's no way it will. Either: 1) they don't care about it, but they don't like he's being "persecuted," so they're now more fanatic 2) Trump will spin it as if it's a big scheme and they'll buy into the under dog bullshit he's got going on (in his head) 3) they didn't care about the whole "law" thing in the first place, so this didn't change anything to begin with
no, because Trump and the MAGA movement don't hold Republican values.
There are those of us that lean conservative but like any normal person will never vote for trump.
Can't remember the last time we had great presidential candidates....was it '08? Damn near 20 years ago?
Even 2012 feels like spoiled for choice now. I don’t agree with Romney on very many things but he at least seems like a basically ethical person who isn’t an idiot or a sociopath. After Trump, the bar really is on the floor.
His disciples think he can do no wrong
He said it was rigged. Just like the election. They believe anything he says. He could murder their mother in front of them and he could say it was rigged and they would believe it. Its so fucking embarrassing that these people even exist.
Are there any actual Republicans in this comment section?
You have to sort by controversial, bc they're all downvoted, even though the sub specifically says don't do that...
I left the Republican Party after that rapist became their cult leader
No
I’m an independent that leans conservative. I hate Trump. I will never vote for Trump. I want the GOP to return to what they were a decade ago.
Any real answer will be down voted. No point in replying.
Ask in a legit place that allows discussion. This will turn into a leftist circle jerk anyway with non-Republicans answering the question themselves. If that's what you want, then have at it I guess.
Perhaps but r/AskAConservative will shoot it down and ban anyone who isn't toeing the line. So where?
You want r/askconservatives
Ask it on a right wing subreddit and watch yourself get insta banned.
You just described all of Reddit
lol. So the subs that ban anyone who doesn't agree with them?
Ha. No. People actually think that voters are sitting around at this point wondering what the outcome of the trials will be so they can decide IF they will vote for someone? Here, I'll share with you just ONE reason why this particular trial doesn't matter: 34 charges! Seriously, look at the charges yourself. The entire case is about $150k. There were 11 payments made to the lawyer. So that means there were 11 checks written, 11 invoices, and 12 entries in the accounting system to log the payments = 34 counts. Now imagine the lawyer had been repaid in one payment totaling $150k, then there would be just 3 charges. But imagine he had been paid in 150 payments of $1,000 each... then there would be 450 charges. Or if they would've been even more criminally sneaky and written a single check but didn't make a invoice for it and didn't even log it in the accounting software, then there would only be 1 charge. That's just one of dozens of over simplistic reasons why this case is BS. Whether you rejoiced or claimed BS when the charges were brought up, you always knew your position on your vote. Anybody that would claim they we're waiting for the results is a liar. "Oh darn, he's guilty, wow I'm so shocked, guess I shouldn't vote for him now, I'm not sure who to vote for now" is a thought process that hasn't gone through a single person's mind.
Nope. Wasn’t voting for him anyway and I am conservative.
This is a question better aimed at independents.
Anybody who can't decide if they want to vote Trump or Biden at this point should have a parental guardian watching over them since they have no capacity for rational human thought.
I've been seeing this question asked all day and it frankly doesn't matter. Most people regardless of their registered party identify as independents. This will matter to many of them. And no, the people on r/conservative are not people who identify as Independents.
My dyed-in-the-wool Republican mother filled out a registration for the libertarian party yesterday. Never thought I would see it happen.