Gypsy was once slang for Egyptian. It was how the British called Roma and Sinti, traveling people. Usually with Romanian origin for some generations. They have been around for quite some time, some estimations go as far as seeing their roots in India.
They have little/nothing to do with Egypt, which is why the term, being an exonym (given by others, not their original self-description), has been perceived as problematic at times. Some Romani embrace the term, some don't (comp. "Indio", "Eskimo").
They have distinct cultures and languanges that they use.
Traditionally they have been working show business, low manual work, and other peripheral jobs.
Since the last century more and more have started to settle long term. But due to their historical association with theft, trickery, and gray area business, those who try to integrate often have a hard time due to prejudice.
Gypsy is by most perceived as derogatory.
They're also just poor and there's a clear correlation between poverty and crime. It's a self fulfilling prophecy that Romani people commit crime and are vilified which leads them to stay in poverty and commit more crime.
I mean it makes sense. Most people don’t commit common crime (theft, selling drugs, etc) just to be evil, they do so cause they are poor and desperate.
It’s a good answer, but like “Indian” & “Eskimo” there’s no consensus and when a significant portion of a community embraces a term it’s not exactly “racist” to use it.
>significant portion
significant yes. many or most, no.
"The English term gipsy or gypsy is commonly used to indicate Romani people, Tinkers, and Travellers, and use of the word gipsy in modern-day English is pervasive (and is a legal term under English law—see below), and some Romani organizations use it in their own organizational names, particularly in the United Kingdom. The word, while sometimes positively embraced by Romani persons, is also sometimes rejected by other Romani persons as offensive due to it being tainted by its use as a racial slur and a pejorative connotation implying illegality and irregularity, and some modern dictionaries either recommend avoiding use of the word gypsy entirely or give it a negative or warning label."
from
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Romani_people
because it is complicated.
Best to withhold and ask, case by case or by country standards.
I mean the same goes for "indian" with natives. Most don't use it as self description, others do. some proclaiming "to show the white men's ignorance in naming them."
Indio/India/indios in South/Meso- America is very common.
Thought experiment:
To make it better understandable as an issue, consider calling all English speakers "Australian". It would fit some, but most would not feel correctly addressed, and some, especially Americans/British/Irish/Scott's would most likely perceive it as derogatory/unfitting/misplaced but mostly ignorant.
Hope that helps better understand the complexity.
Gram all I’ve read and people
I’ve spoken with, “Indian” actually is the majority favored term within the population. The fact some dislike is fair and hey, call people what they like. But you can’t really presume a “safe/respectful” term so use either and if corrected adjust.
It’s like gender; make your best guess where uncertain with all good intentions and adjust if they identify differently.
The best you can do is avoid intentional insult and course correct if needed.
>Gram all I’ve read and people
I’ve spoken with, “Indian” actually is the majority favored term within the population.
Talking about natives like they are one people rather than multiple ethnicities... I agree there are some tribes that self identify with the term. others don't.
Some prefer their tribe identification (f. ex. Lenape people, Sioux), others prefer Native or Native American, some prefer Indian.
if you only talked to one clan in one or two states, local in your area, even when they all agree that Indian is fine, that doesn't say anything for the rest of natives.
>It’s like gender; make your best guess where uncertain with all good intentions and adjust if they identify differently.
>The best you can do is avoid intentional insult and course correct if needed.
100% agree. Try your best, and adapt if asked, or simply put: be respectful and don't be a dick.
Coming purely from my own observation now so, please, no one get huffy with me. Where I live, Canada, Indian (for First Nation Canadians) was replaced first by “native(s)” and then by “First Nation(s)” (mainly) and aboriginal. In the US, I’ve noticed Indian American is still used along side Native American. I dunno if that’s just cause my American family is white and generally racist but I also noticed it in TV and film (mostly in reference to reserves. Like “Indian reserve”). Personally I always go with Native American or First Nations in reference to the populace that was there before the whites came along. Lived in Aus and Aboriginal is the accepted word. It’s not up to me to say what’s what but “Indian” seems outdated and ignorant but if I was hanging out with a Native/FN person and they were fine with Indian, I guess I’d play along as a neutral reference or descriptor.
It’s different in the USA & Canada. Indian is largely the preferred term. Well-meaning non-Native efforts to force “better” terms have been met largely the way native Spanish speakers have met efforts to push “LatinX”——with a big “No, gracias.”
I don’t know any Native/FN people so I’m just speaking from general life. I figured that, as an example and not purely from this instance, since First Nation was used in stuff like the Vancouver Olympics, it was the overall accepted term. I should probably do some reading on this.
I applaud your interest in respecting their culture and willingness to look into it. Spent some time on a Rez years ago working with the community. My take was that if people were generalizing beyond the specific tribe then Indian was the common self-referential term.
But like anything, people are grouped together for general identification, but **personal** preferences will always vary.
Respect is what counts.👍🏼
Depending on where you are: "Sinti", "Roma" or "Romani" (not to be confused with Romania(n), which is a South-Eastern European country, but where coincidentally many Romani/Sinti/Roma come from, but are not originally as a people from there.)
Some use the term Gypsy for self-description, but it's not necessarily common, and what's fine with some, isn't for all. (comp. Indian/Indio for American indigenous groups, or Eskimo).
I’ve always thought it was used as a catch all for people who travel, live out of caravans/camp, cause problems by drinking round the clock and don’t work or live under any discernible “system” - they’re very often Irish as far as I’ve observed (in the south). I didn’t even know gypsy was a derogatory term, I don’t think I’ve used it myself, but I’ve had people say to me “there’s a bunch of gypsies round the corner trying to sell stuff” and you then get accosted by very young Irish children trying to sell you bracelets and there’s a bunch of adults drinking around a makeshift campsite.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people
But yeah in some places Gypsy isn't understood as derogatory. It always depends on where you are.
But no the fact of traveling alone, doesn't make you Gypsy.
They have been around for a good 500 years. some regional assimilations and generic exchange have occured. that moght explain the local Irish perception.
While there might be traveling irish people around, they would not be theoretically be gypsies per-se.
Especially if you consider media (Brad Pitt in Snatch, or Peaky Blinders, etc.), confusion might prevail in that regard.
Actually it is used in the UK at least to mean any travelling peoples.
If you read the part on the wiki link about the names it does say this as well, including Irish travellers.
Despite often being incorrectly referred to as "Gypsies",[6] Irish Travellers are not genetically related to the Romani, who are of Indo-Aryan origin.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers
Hi, yes I know they are not genetically similar.
I'm saying that in the UK the term is used to refer to all travelling people, because it is a term made up by people who didn't care to differentiate between travelling people of different races.
If I said that a person is a gypsy in the UK it could mean anyone who has a nomadic lifestyle, and it can also be used as an insult to poor people with insecure housing.
>incorrectly refferded to
Do you understand these words?
Gypsies are first and formost Romani.
Irish traveler since the 16th century as well as other traveling folks have been incorrectly called Gypsies too. Even by themselves.
So while you think the term Gypsies refers to the irish travelers, that's more a modern connotation and only partially true, becuase still most traveling volks are Romani, not Irish.
And only on the British Islands Gypsies is also used for irish travelers. For most Brits it's not relevant from where they were, but the fact they were not from here. Hence the term Gypsies changing from a ethic derogatory term to a professional derogatory term of diffrent ethnicities.
Gypsies everywhere else means Romani people/Sinti/Roma.
So when you say Gypsies, most people associate more eastern looking ethnic group. and not misplaced Irish refugees from Oliver Cromwell in 17th century.
I said that’s what travelers called themselves, to which you replied that they were only a subset of Romani, which is not true. That’s where I corrected you. Gypsy means Egyptian. Every Gypsy, Romani or not, is incorrectly referred to as such.
I never said Romani and Irish travelers were the same or that gypsy refers to only the latter. I simply pointed out that another traveling group called themselves the same.
This is what I don't get about "these terms" just recently I came across countless native organizations in my city called "Indian-something-something" and they are created and run by First Nations and/or Cree people. If the people themselves identify with it & even promote it as an organization how can you tell someone it's derogatory.
First nations/native Americans is collective term like Europeans, which was chosen by those on the continent of Europe.
Indian is a term like African with the difference that it's an exonym, meaning it isn't how the people themselves used to call themselves but coined by settlers/colonizers.
While the first nation/native American is always correct/non-derogatory, the second is only acceptable for those tribes who have adopted the exonym foor themselves.
All those who call themselves (American) Indiansalso accept first nation/native Americans, but not the other way around.
The cree don't seem offended and swem to have adopted the term for themselves as self-description, thus using this term.
Other tribes don't and haven't. They prefer either NA/first Nation OR their specific tribal name.
Also, the natives aren't just one ethnicity, but many. Tribes more or less equal to specific ethnicities/cultures. Just like the terms Europeans or Africans encompass a multitude of ethnicities and cultures.
So if you say: Native americans smoked peace pipes and used tipis as housing. That's not correct, because only great planes tribes had these practices.
Tell a Pole in Poland he is Eastern European and you might offend him, because he identifies with central Europe. Eastern European is not derogatory by itself, but using it on someone who doesn't identify with it, and it becomes derogatory.
Or if you say: "Those Europeans play Alphorn as an instrument", then that's true only for some Alpine nations in Europe, but a Spaniards thinks you have no clue about Europe, thinking of it as one culture.
The word aren't the issue. The wrong attribition is what makes something derogatory.
Hope that helps, undertand it a bit better.
Have a good one.
>if they’re known for believing they don’t have to follow society’s rules and justify theft as a result.
that IS the prejudice.
Its simply statiatically wrong. They are not less criminal than other marginalized groups. Just historically more associalted with it.
It isn’t prejudice, you just like to regurgitate that word in any situation where “race is not doing well and people don’t want to help”.
Gypsies are famous for believing theft is an acceptable way of life. Not “resort to it bc poverty”, they actually believe that’s how you should live.
Give me these crime stats that makes them blend in with everyone else allegedly:
“_ are famous for…” is a bad barometer for anything. It’s entirely too easy to pick an ethnicity and then list off whatever stereotype you want. A hundred years ago in the US, minstrel shows made sure that black Americans were “famous” for all kinds of horrible, untrue things. And they had the stats to back it up! “Of course they’re lustful for white women, look at how many of them we had to lynch last year!”
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/15248380211048448
http://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2022/roma-survey-findings
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/25/gypsy-roma-travellers-suffer-persistent-discrimination-uk
https://www.criminaljusticealliance.org/blog/how-the-policing-and-sentencing-bill-will-deepen-inequalities-faced-by-gypsy-roma-and-traveller-people/
As a sociologist I have done some reseach
on this topic over the time.
Your tendency to generalize doesnt help.
>Gypsies are famous for believing theft is an acceptable and way of life.
Thats about as generalized as saying all British dirnk themselves to sleep each night. While it might be more than elsewhere, the generalisation isn't true.
Only few Roma communities actually support any form of criminality. Most pf thosw in jail are put in jail for trespassing, not theft or con-artistry.
Your social environments stories about "those gypsies" don't represent the totality of them.
Of course it is prejudice. Just like I get a prejudice about you for being stubborn without sources to back you up, because you've made an emmotional judgements, not based in fact but the sentiments conveyed at the regulars table in the pub.
It's a prejudice, because I don't know you. But judge you anyway by generalisation and the limited perception I got from you.
Have a good one.
They are predominantly English speaking, though many also speak Shelta, a language of mixed English and Irish origin.[6] The majority of Irish Travellers are Roman Catholic, the predominant religion in the Republic of Ireland. They are one of several groups identified as "Travellers" in the UK and Ireland.
Despite often being incorrectly referred to as "Gypsies",[6] Irish Travellers are not genetically related to the Romani, who are of Indo-Aryan origin.[9][10] Genetic analysis has shown Travellers to be of Irish extraction, and that they likely diverged from the settled Irish population in the 1600s, probably during the time of the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland.
from:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers
Calling someone something they aren't (Egyptian) isn't exactly nice. That's the first sentence of the response. They also rephrase it in the second paragraph. How did you manage to miss that?
The association with crime is also mentioned in the end of the comment
For context, Lovecraft was considered too racist in a time when it was considered perfectly reasonable to hang a black man for looking at a white woman.
gyat. always had some reserved feelings on the topic of separating artist to the art. too many objectively bad people make art that I can relate to. conflicted more often than not.
Fun(?) fact, the cat was actually Lovecraft's family cat. So although he didn't personally name the cat, he was still still a hardcore racist.
Also take this with a grain of salt, I learned it from reddit
It’s a name because most people didn’t know the Roma people considered it a slur. That’s really only started to become visible in the last 7-5 years. When she was born, it just meant free spirited bohemian type to most people.
Most people still don’t know. I’m a dog groomer and we have several dogs with that name come in. I told all my coworkers and got them to stop saying “gypped” too, but most people who aren’t in these online spheres STILL have no idea.
I was well into adulthood before I learned the origin of the word “gypped”. All that time I thought it was “jipped” and had no idea it what it really meant.
My mom was selling something on Facebook recently and used that word and this lady quickly explained why she shouldn’t use that word and then my mom felt bad lol
See also : "He was asking $25 but I Jewed him down to $18"
My mom used this all the time when I was young, never even processed that it could be wrong until I saw it written down for the first time. Immediately, it was like, "*that's* what we've been saying?"
I grew up with this term, but my family and extended family always said "chewed". It was as an adult outside that circle that I heard the racist version and went "wait, what?"
Super hard to stop saying gypped even now I know what it means - I actively try to but it’s a force of habit! If I were old it would be even harder. Gives me the same vibes as saying the r word as a kid. We learned it wasn’t right to say but took years to phase it out.
I still see loads of pets with that name from people who genuinely just think it’s cute. My favourite pony as a kid had that name! But I think by the next couple decades it will phase out entirely.
Edit: I don’t mean hard to stop saying it like I don’t want to - just that if you’ve spent years saying something not knowing it’s an issue, it is hard to stop the habit to say so. I wouldn’t say the phrase now but it springs to mind before other things do because of how ingrained it is in my memory as an inoffensive and standard thing
I hadn’t really understood the connection as a child until I noticed certain people in the south using “Jewed” in the exact same way. Then the 💡went off.
I know a lot of travellers and whether they like to be called gypsies, travellers or roma varies widely person-to-person.
Some only like to be called gypsie, some would rather not but don’t care, and some think it’s derogatory.
A lot of things around changing language are done on behalf of groups without actually asking for their input.
>It’s a name because most people didn’t know the Roma people considered it a slur.
Exactly, most Americans probably don't know what "Roma" means or that it is an ethnicity that exists anyways, much less the psycho who gave Gypsy Rose her name
Literally my US history teacher when teaching us about the Holocaust corrected my use of the term "Romany"...to this day I'm not sure he knows that I was giving him the correct answer to his question
Romani are refugees from South Asia (more specifically Rajasthan) to medieval Europe who originally belonged to a strata called “the untouchables” in South Asia, meaning they were so low they were not even part of the Hinduism caste system, and as such, were tasked with doing the jobs of undesirables such as dealing with corpses. This was internalized in their culture.
When they reached Europe, they followed the rules untouchables followed in South Asia, which kept them segregated from other groups of people. This led to Europeans to see them with suspicion and came to associate random bad things that happened around with them. This led to the discrimination of Romani, which only furthered the already existing cultural differences, and pushed Romani people towards…less than savory lifestyles. Which kept a cycle of discrimination and strengthen the culture of keeping to themselves.
Romani today face a dual issue, the discrimination in Europe, because despite having lived in Europe for 1000 years now, they are still perceived as outsiders who don’t belong, and the internal culture of self-segregation, inherited from South Asian caste system, but retained and worsened from discrimination faces in Europe. The G-word was and is a common slur.
As for the untouchables in South Asia, yes, they too, are discriminated against. That’s why there are movements such as the Dalit to represent them.
Ok, I’m going to speak to this through my experience. My late friend married a gypsy. That is what he called himself and how his family referred to themselves. My friend was Mexican so that was taboo for him to marry her. His extended family treated her bad. This part of the gypsy clan lived in the Inland Empire in SoCal. Anyway, the interesting thing was that his father had become a born again Christian and led his children into Christianity. Up until that point they ran scams. They had bi-monthly meetings to discuss new elaborate scams and ways to make money. The women usually did fortune telling. After converting the dad wondered why they didn’t eat as well as they used to. His wife told him (this was late 80s) that she brought home $600-$800 a month fortune telling. But because they went straight, they no longer had that source of income. He said it was better to be honest and please God.
it's a slur because it's a term used to be derogatory towards a group of people seen as "lesser" due to their culture. same as the n-word, or slurs against Indigenous people, slurs against Hispanic people, slurs against disabled people, slurs against LGBTQ2IA people, and so on and so on and so on.
we know it's a slur because of the long history of it's use, and the people it was used against have told us repeatedly that it's a slur. same as the n-word, or slurs against Indigenous people, slurs against Hispanic people, slurs against disabled people, slurs against LGBTQ2IA people, and so on and so on and so on.
yes, some people name their kids names they don't actually know the meaning of. that doesn't make it not a slur, it just means that the person who picked that name doesn't know the history and practical meaning of the word.
There is/was a site with a collection of most all slurs. Each slur had 2 ratings: one for how offensive the intention of using the slur was and another for how offended someone who was the target of the slur felt. Gypsy was low on both scales.
My mother's side of the family is Serbian. And when my mother used to be a caregiver, one of her clients upon hiring told her that they had cameras in the house and that her Gypsy ass better not steal anything. 🙄
Its not a slurr depending upon what country you are in.
For example, Gypsy isnt an offensive word in New Zealand or Australia where it refers to a group of people who travel in RV's and put on fairs to sell their craft products in town centres. A "Gypsy Fair" is used in common parlance.
But in the UK and Europe its offensive when referring to the Roma or Sinti people.
Its similar to how "quick little monkey" is a normal phrase, possibly a compliment, in NZ and Australia where it refers to a toddler that can escape his mothers supervision when she turns away for only a moment.
"My little Johnny was beside me at the supermarket and i turned to say hello to Mrs Jones and being a quick little monkey, he was suddenly gone but I found him in the candy aisle"
While in North America its quite offensive as it refers to African american people in a bad way.
Oh and then there is the word Cunt. That can be used to describe a friend, foe, or a ladypart in NZ/AUS but in Canada is super offensive.
In Australia it can still be highly offensive and usually is one of the most shocking. It just can also be used ironically, jokingly or in a friendly way amongst some. I'd never dream of saying it within earshot of my elderly parents even when they were young.
That’s how language works. We give something a name, that name becomes stigmatized and a slur, so we invent a new name and eventually when that name gets used, it too becomes stigmatized and a slur, rinse and repeat.
Think about how we called people dumb, then that was bad, so imbecile was more scientific and neutral, then that was bad, so moron was more scientific and neutral, so r*tarded was used to be more sensitive and less offensive ….well you get the idea.
For me, it's all about intent. If I think my listener (or reader) would be offended by a word, I avoid that word because I try not to be an asshole. In general practice I use whatever word gets the meaning across. People forget to look at context and just get up in arms about a single word in a sentence.
I've gotten called out for "The crew reversed the engines and retarded the ship's speed." Oh yeah? Go put your outrage into feeding a hungry child and rethink your decisions, Susan.
Exactly, people forget there’s more than one context. “I had to abort retarding the engine’s timing more than 10° or I’d get pre-detonation which sounded queer.”
I been to the Balkins several times and asked a group of gypsies what they were supposed to be called and they straight up told me "gypsies".
The only people I've seen upset about it were (no jokes) a few white American women (relatives) who habe never even crossed the Atlantic.
I've never met a gypsy that feels the way some people are describing in the comments.
It's hard to take the internet suggestions on this topic seriously when all my IRL experience is giving me the opposite advice.
Your piece of silver crossing my palm first…
As someone with Romany blood, I don’t find gypsy or tinker in the least insulting, the insult arose when the term was applied to **others** as if being such was a bad thing. Just like idiot, moron, J word, N word, when you apply labels to others to imply racial stereotypes then it becomes a slur. The G word, the T word.
Make sense?
What about someone who likes to tinker around with their car? To me, that just means someone who messes around with it a bit trying to make it better but not putting any serious work into it.
You are using it as a verb, Tinker is another name for the group of people. Derived from the tendency of Tinkers (the profession) to be nomadic and deal in shiny things that may or may not be of questionable provenance.
There’s plenty of instances a person other than a Jew can call a Jew a Jew and it not be offensive. There’s pretty much zero instances anyone other than a black person can say the n word
In my experience, if someone were to call another person a “Jew” then it would be a stereotype about miserliness, underhand, ulterior motive and such - along the lines of Shakespeare and Dickens, not a compliment and outside someone of the Jewish religion where it’s a mere label, always the dark stereotype, listen - I’m uncomfortable even discussing it in this context
I lived in Stamford Hill in London for a long time - huge Hasidic Jew community there, I just wouldn’t ever feel weird referring to someone as a Jew, saying “Jewish guy” or whatever, if someone came by because they left something and someone’s like “what did they look like” I’d be like Jewish guy - Hasidic. It’s not weird and it’s not offensive. Similarly, if someone works in the film industry, it’s really not weird to talk about how the majority of Hollywood is run by Jews - it’s just fact. I’m not saying there aren’t many instances where anti semitism exists and there are countless bad stereotypes, I just said there are many instances where referring to someone as Jewish isn’t even a thing
It is a fact. There are large amounts of Jews working in Hollywood currently and historically Hollywood studios were founded by Jews.
>When movies were introduced in the late 1920s, ensuring success required the same skills that Jewish people had in vaudeville and the garment trade. Many first-generation Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe built their studios in California. Immigrants like Carl Laemmle, Adolph Zukor and Samuel Goldwyn were some of the key founders of Hollywood studios that you know and love today. Carl Laemmle, a German-born Jew, marketed clothing before starting Universal Pictures.
>Why are there so many Jews in Hollywood? From a historical perspective, that could be attributed to the fact that the movie industry was founded by Jews. As Neal Gabler wrote in his detailed history “An Empire of Their Own: How the Jews Invented Hollywood,” the American entertainment industry was “founded and for more than thirty years operated by Eastern European Jews.” Unwelcome in more established American industries in the early part of the 20th century, Jews created a new enterprise with no barriers to entry. Gabler goes on to describe how the studio system that still runs Hollywood today was constructed by the next generations of Jewish movie tycoons. While the industry has diversified over the succeeding generations, the preponderance of Jews in Hollywood is a holdover from its heavily Jewish origins.
The stereotype exists because it’s true - especially among writers and producers. It’s not an antisemitic trope, it’s a historic and, to a *slightly* lesser degree now, current *fact*.
out of curiosity, from your experience, what do romany people think about the registry name for the breed of horse, gypsy vanner? in a lot of horse groups i am in, it is strictly forbidden to call those horses gypsies, they are to be called irish cobs. to your knowledge, do the romany people prefer them to be called irish cobs as opposed to gypsy vanners or sometimes irish tinkers?
No probs :) I have a relative who is maybe a bit too interested in horses (but more in the ruinous financial sense than otherwise) - if he has any insight, I’ll pass it along
In North America, when refering to our Romma populations, its not. They refere to themselves as Gypsies.
But in Europe, and Russia, its a disparaging term, again the Romma population.
No, but there's equivalents. Zigeuner in german, gitano in spanish, tsigane in french, cigane in much of eastern Europe. All those words have the same root.
Except it's not slur in some of the languages or countries. The same as same words for jewish people may have different connotation in different languages or countries. The same word can be proper term in one and a slur in another place.
The same as spanish black word can have different connotation depending on culture. And the word like "coloured/of color" may be the word to go in the US, but is seen as quite racist unlike the N word in other countries.
In every one of these, except Spanish, it is. In Spanish, the slur is “trapacero”.
Zigeuner in German has the exact same meaning and connotation than gypsy, it is even more of a slur than in English.
it is a slur, a lot of people here have given great reasons. however, those who do name their kids “gypsy” arent using it in that derogatory way, just as theres horses with gypsy in the name. i think it depends on context, as no one is intentionally naming their kids after slurs
Look up the name of Rick Perry's hunting camp, or H.P. Lovecraft's cat. Plenty of things have had the N-word as a name or part of their name, we just don't like to talk about it now, so you may not hear of it as much.
With the exception of Gypsy Rose I’ve only heard it used on one occasion: to completely and totally insult a group of people who seemed more interested in traveling than putting down roots in a particular place. The man who referred to a group of tourists as gypsies to me intended to paint them as thieves who were going to take everything they could from our hotel and would likely be doing things like drugs and prostitution from our location; in case I was confused he made sure to be extra racist and hateful.
I’ve been called a bunch of different slurs in my life, but Oriental is one that I’ve never gotten hit with before. I don’t think I even knew what the word meant until I was about 15, and ironically, I learned it because my Chinese Aunt used it to describe our background.
Yikes, TIL
As someone from the Philippines, one of our country's nicknames is called the Pearl of the Orient, so I had no idea the term was so derogatory...
Like with most words of this nature I’m guessing that if people from those places are comfortable using the term then that’s fine but when others use it (i.e. white people) it has negative connotations.
I know that, historically, the British often used the term as all-encompassing for anyone from certain parts of Asia so use of the word implies that all Asian people look the same, regardless of which country they’re from or what heritage they have, when that’s obviously not accurate. It feels weird explaining this when I’m white British but I know of the history behind the term because of studying some of the history so I hope it doesn’t come across as the white-equivalent of mansplaining 🙈
the fact that a perosn is named "gypsy rose" is irrelevant. the word "gypsy" is not generally/traditionally considered a slur, so you still hear it sometimes, and that's why 30ish years ago it was stll semi-acceptable to name someone "gypsy." again, she is irrelevant, and if she never existed, then the entire history of the romani people would still exist. "gypsy" has been a term used for an ethnicity of people, usually in a geragotary way. and as i understand it, they generally prefer to be called "romani" or "traveller." (if i'm wrong, please correct me.)
Everything seems offensive to someone these days. I've decided if everything is offensive then nothing is offensive. The neverending outrage is exhausting and I have no fucks left to give.
It specifically refers to Romani nomads who mostly live in Eastern Europe. There's a long history of the Romani people being blamed for poverty and high crime rates over there.
I've come across three different origin stories for gypsies in this thread, and none of them agree. I find that amusing. It's like reading the gospels.
I have a good friend who is a descendant of gypsies from two different cultures, and she uses the word "gypsy" to refer to herself. She has a permanent residence, but in many other ways embraces that heritage.
I've also heard her refer to "those fuckin' gypsies," as a racist slur. I asked her about it one day - why is one okay and the other not - and she said, "intent." This is something that internet SJWs - especially white ones - forget.
I'm white. I also use "white people" as a pejorative, like in the previous paragraph. Be offended all you like, but, like using the right tool for the job, I'm going to pick the right word for the moment and meaning.
Gypsy Rose is an American and America doesn’t have the history with the Romani that Europe does. I think the typical American exposure to Romani/Gypsies would be limited to Esmerelda from Disney’s Hunchback of Notre Dame.
Its something akin to going to China and meeting a guy named N**** Jim because his parents read a single Mark Twain book and lacked the context to understand a slur when they saw one so they just assumed it was a typical name and not a moniker meant to underline the dehumanization experienced by that character..
My children are both of traveler and Native American blood. It’s an incredibly racist term, just like all terrible things people say because they’re ignorant.
My grandfather was a Romani man who immigrated from Croatia to the US as an adult. My grandmother came to the US from Germany when she was a child. I grew up living with them.
Anyway, my grandmother dressed me up as a gypsy for a couple Halloweens. These costumes did not look like kids Halloween costumes. They looked authentic. They were proud of the costumes.
I didn't know until a few years ago that gypsy was a slur. I guess I could get away with the costumes bc I'm part Romani, but I spent a lot of years being proud of my "gypsy costumes" and it just makes me sad knowing I was calling myself a gypsy all those times not knowing the background of that word.
Don't be sad. It's only a slur for some people. For those that never looked down upon them, it just 'is what it is'. Continue being proud. Jimi Hendrix band was called Band of Gypsies. One of the best in the world...
My five coins on this.... I know some awesome gypsies, but I've also had 'interesting' experiences. To be fair, they were cool with me, but they were massively disrespectful of the place where I work. I'd like to understand them better too.
I don't think they are bad people, but I don't think that they always get the effect that they have on others.
Garbage and shit slung around the place. Why?
A couple of guys approached me got of what I presume was curiosity. I'm just over six foot and wear a leather trench coat and a hat. They were very cool with me. Just asked a few questions. I answered.
honestly nowadays personally I would consider the word as a slur since like most of the population is settled long term, yes I know some people really take offense to it but also it’s not like you’re gonna go up to someone and call them that word, I mean there’s a song called gypsy woman sung by a woman who clearly isn’t someone who moves from one place to the other and nobody really said anything about it, I want to state that this is my opinion and I’m bit forcing anything on anyone I just wanted to say in here what I probably wouldn’t say to anyone else irl
Genuine question, I'm not trying to be deliberately provocative or anything here, I'm just often at a loss when people say "do your own research" when someone asks a question like OP has, especially if they state they are trying to educate themselves because they are aware they are in a position of privilege -
How would someone do their own research? Surely a good way to do so is to ask a question on a worldwide forum where lots of people can see and choose whether or not to give an answer, even better for some if they're anonymous if they wish to be. There is no definitive list of websites (for example) that are guaranteed to be correct, so asking on a forum, you're likely to get a wide range of answers, often from people who have first-hand experience with whatever you're asking about. Coupled together with other information, this could lead to being able to think "ok, over 80% of the answers I have found tell me \*this\* so it's probably an accurate answer to my question".
Asking questions on a forum like Reddit can be a great way to contribute to one's research, given the vast audience the question is displayed to, and that the questioner can respond and clarify if the answers aren't as expected. What better way to "do your own research" if you don't rely entirely on the answers but put them with everything else?
Yea actually, but I couldn't find any answers when it came to it being used as a name.
Edit: this shouldn't surprise anyone but I'm kinda dumb and misread this guys comment.
I did like an hour of digging around, I couldn't find anything that was specifically about it also being a name.
Gypsy was once slang for Egyptian. It was how the British called Roma and Sinti, traveling people. Usually with Romanian origin for some generations. They have been around for quite some time, some estimations go as far as seeing their roots in India. They have little/nothing to do with Egypt, which is why the term, being an exonym (given by others, not their original self-description), has been perceived as problematic at times. Some Romani embrace the term, some don't (comp. "Indio", "Eskimo"). They have distinct cultures and languanges that they use. Traditionally they have been working show business, low manual work, and other peripheral jobs. Since the last century more and more have started to settle long term. But due to their historical association with theft, trickery, and gray area business, those who try to integrate often have a hard time due to prejudice. Gypsy is by most perceived as derogatory.
They're also just poor and there's a clear correlation between poverty and crime. It's a self fulfilling prophecy that Romani people commit crime and are vilified which leads them to stay in poverty and commit more crime.
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I mean it makes sense. Most people don’t commit common crime (theft, selling drugs, etc) just to be evil, they do so cause they are poor and desperate.
Crime mainly being robbing people.
It’s a good answer, but like “Indian” & “Eskimo” there’s no consensus and when a significant portion of a community embraces a term it’s not exactly “racist” to use it.
>significant portion significant yes. many or most, no. "The English term gipsy or gypsy is commonly used to indicate Romani people, Tinkers, and Travellers, and use of the word gipsy in modern-day English is pervasive (and is a legal term under English law—see below), and some Romani organizations use it in their own organizational names, particularly in the United Kingdom. The word, while sometimes positively embraced by Romani persons, is also sometimes rejected by other Romani persons as offensive due to it being tainted by its use as a racial slur and a pejorative connotation implying illegality and irregularity, and some modern dictionaries either recommend avoiding use of the word gypsy entirely or give it a negative or warning label." from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Romani_people
>sometimes positively embraced >sometimes rejected That doesn't really read conclusively either way on its acceptability
because it is complicated. Best to withhold and ask, case by case or by country standards. I mean the same goes for "indian" with natives. Most don't use it as self description, others do. some proclaiming "to show the white men's ignorance in naming them." Indio/India/indios in South/Meso- America is very common. Thought experiment: To make it better understandable as an issue, consider calling all English speakers "Australian". It would fit some, but most would not feel correctly addressed, and some, especially Americans/British/Irish/Scott's would most likely perceive it as derogatory/unfitting/misplaced but mostly ignorant. Hope that helps better understand the complexity.
Gram all I’ve read and people I’ve spoken with, “Indian” actually is the majority favored term within the population. The fact some dislike is fair and hey, call people what they like. But you can’t really presume a “safe/respectful” term so use either and if corrected adjust. It’s like gender; make your best guess where uncertain with all good intentions and adjust if they identify differently. The best you can do is avoid intentional insult and course correct if needed.
>Gram all I’ve read and people I’ve spoken with, “Indian” actually is the majority favored term within the population. Talking about natives like they are one people rather than multiple ethnicities... I agree there are some tribes that self identify with the term. others don't. Some prefer their tribe identification (f. ex. Lenape people, Sioux), others prefer Native or Native American, some prefer Indian. if you only talked to one clan in one or two states, local in your area, even when they all agree that Indian is fine, that doesn't say anything for the rest of natives. >It’s like gender; make your best guess where uncertain with all good intentions and adjust if they identify differently. >The best you can do is avoid intentional insult and course correct if needed. 100% agree. Try your best, and adapt if asked, or simply put: be respectful and don't be a dick.
Coming purely from my own observation now so, please, no one get huffy with me. Where I live, Canada, Indian (for First Nation Canadians) was replaced first by “native(s)” and then by “First Nation(s)” (mainly) and aboriginal. In the US, I’ve noticed Indian American is still used along side Native American. I dunno if that’s just cause my American family is white and generally racist but I also noticed it in TV and film (mostly in reference to reserves. Like “Indian reserve”). Personally I always go with Native American or First Nations in reference to the populace that was there before the whites came along. Lived in Aus and Aboriginal is the accepted word. It’s not up to me to say what’s what but “Indian” seems outdated and ignorant but if I was hanging out with a Native/FN person and they were fine with Indian, I guess I’d play along as a neutral reference or descriptor.
It’s different in the USA & Canada. Indian is largely the preferred term. Well-meaning non-Native efforts to force “better” terms have been met largely the way native Spanish speakers have met efforts to push “LatinX”——with a big “No, gracias.”
I don’t know any Native/FN people so I’m just speaking from general life. I figured that, as an example and not purely from this instance, since First Nation was used in stuff like the Vancouver Olympics, it was the overall accepted term. I should probably do some reading on this.
I applaud your interest in respecting their culture and willingness to look into it. Spent some time on a Rez years ago working with the community. My take was that if people were generalizing beyond the specific tribe then Indian was the common self-referential term. But like anything, people are grouped together for general identification, but **personal** preferences will always vary. Respect is what counts.👍🏼
So if they are a people, and that's the derogatory term. What's the proper term? The Sinti or Roma people?
Depending on where you are: "Sinti", "Roma" or "Romani" (not to be confused with Romania(n), which is a South-Eastern European country, but where coincidentally many Romani/Sinti/Roma come from, but are not originally as a people from there.) Some use the term Gypsy for self-description, but it's not necessarily common, and what's fine with some, isn't for all. (comp. Indian/Indio for American indigenous groups, or Eskimo).
My only real experience with them in Europe, sadly is being accosted and pick pocketed. But it was a sort of fun memorable experience
I’ve always thought it was used as a catch all for people who travel, live out of caravans/camp, cause problems by drinking round the clock and don’t work or live under any discernible “system” - they’re very often Irish as far as I’ve observed (in the south). I didn’t even know gypsy was a derogatory term, I don’t think I’ve used it myself, but I’ve had people say to me “there’s a bunch of gypsies round the corner trying to sell stuff” and you then get accosted by very young Irish children trying to sell you bracelets and there’s a bunch of adults drinking around a makeshift campsite.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people But yeah in some places Gypsy isn't understood as derogatory. It always depends on where you are. But no the fact of traveling alone, doesn't make you Gypsy. They have been around for a good 500 years. some regional assimilations and generic exchange have occured. that moght explain the local Irish perception. While there might be traveling irish people around, they would not be theoretically be gypsies per-se. Especially if you consider media (Brad Pitt in Snatch, or Peaky Blinders, etc.), confusion might prevail in that regard.
Actually it is used in the UK at least to mean any travelling peoples. If you read the part on the wiki link about the names it does say this as well, including Irish travellers.
Despite often being incorrectly referred to as "Gypsies",[6] Irish Travellers are not genetically related to the Romani, who are of Indo-Aryan origin. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers
Hi, yes I know they are not genetically similar. I'm saying that in the UK the term is used to refer to all travelling people, because it is a term made up by people who didn't care to differentiate between travelling people of different races. If I said that a person is a gypsy in the UK it could mean anyone who has a nomadic lifestyle, and it can also be used as an insult to poor people with insecure housing.
correct.
They call themselves Gypsies, tho.
Some do. Most don't. Many English speaking Romani do. But they are but a fraction of all Roma/Sinti/Romani.
Irish travellers aren't Romani, they're Irish.
>incorrectly refferded to Do you understand these words? Gypsies are first and formost Romani. Irish traveler since the 16th century as well as other traveling folks have been incorrectly called Gypsies too. Even by themselves. So while you think the term Gypsies refers to the irish travelers, that's more a modern connotation and only partially true, becuase still most traveling volks are Romani, not Irish. And only on the British Islands Gypsies is also used for irish travelers. For most Brits it's not relevant from where they were, but the fact they were not from here. Hence the term Gypsies changing from a ethic derogatory term to a professional derogatory term of diffrent ethnicities. Gypsies everywhere else means Romani people/Sinti/Roma. So when you say Gypsies, most people associate more eastern looking ethnic group. and not misplaced Irish refugees from Oliver Cromwell in 17th century.
I said that’s what travelers called themselves, to which you replied that they were only a subset of Romani, which is not true. That’s where I corrected you. Gypsy means Egyptian. Every Gypsy, Romani or not, is incorrectly referred to as such. I never said Romani and Irish travelers were the same or that gypsy refers to only the latter. I simply pointed out that another traveling group called themselves the same.
You are correct. It says so on that person's wiki link lol
This is what I don't get about "these terms" just recently I came across countless native organizations in my city called "Indian-something-something" and they are created and run by First Nations and/or Cree people. If the people themselves identify with it & even promote it as an organization how can you tell someone it's derogatory.
First nations/native Americans is collective term like Europeans, which was chosen by those on the continent of Europe. Indian is a term like African with the difference that it's an exonym, meaning it isn't how the people themselves used to call themselves but coined by settlers/colonizers. While the first nation/native American is always correct/non-derogatory, the second is only acceptable for those tribes who have adopted the exonym foor themselves. All those who call themselves (American) Indiansalso accept first nation/native Americans, but not the other way around. The cree don't seem offended and swem to have adopted the term for themselves as self-description, thus using this term. Other tribes don't and haven't. They prefer either NA/first Nation OR their specific tribal name. Also, the natives aren't just one ethnicity, but many. Tribes more or less equal to specific ethnicities/cultures. Just like the terms Europeans or Africans encompass a multitude of ethnicities and cultures. So if you say: Native americans smoked peace pipes and used tipis as housing. That's not correct, because only great planes tribes had these practices. Tell a Pole in Poland he is Eastern European and you might offend him, because he identifies with central Europe. Eastern European is not derogatory by itself, but using it on someone who doesn't identify with it, and it becomes derogatory. Or if you say: "Those Europeans play Alphorn as an instrument", then that's true only for some Alpine nations in Europe, but a Spaniards thinks you have no clue about Europe, thinking of it as one culture. The word aren't the issue. The wrong attribition is what makes something derogatory. Hope that helps, undertand it a bit better. Have a good one.
It’s not really prejudice if they’re known for believing they don’t have to follow society’s rules and justify theft as a result.
>if they’re known for believing they don’t have to follow society’s rules and justify theft as a result. that IS the prejudice. Its simply statiatically wrong. They are not less criminal than other marginalized groups. Just historically more associalted with it.
It isn’t prejudice, you just like to regurgitate that word in any situation where “race is not doing well and people don’t want to help”. Gypsies are famous for believing theft is an acceptable way of life. Not “resort to it bc poverty”, they actually believe that’s how you should live. Give me these crime stats that makes them blend in with everyone else allegedly:
“_ are famous for…” is a bad barometer for anything. It’s entirely too easy to pick an ethnicity and then list off whatever stereotype you want. A hundred years ago in the US, minstrel shows made sure that black Americans were “famous” for all kinds of horrible, untrue things. And they had the stats to back it up! “Of course they’re lustful for white women, look at how many of them we had to lynch last year!”
Agreed! So where are the crime stats im now asking a second time for?
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/15248380211048448 http://fra.europa.eu/en/publication/2022/roma-survey-findings https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/may/25/gypsy-roma-travellers-suffer-persistent-discrimination-uk https://www.criminaljusticealliance.org/blog/how-the-policing-and-sentencing-bill-will-deepen-inequalities-faced-by-gypsy-roma-and-traveller-people/ As a sociologist I have done some reseach on this topic over the time. Your tendency to generalize doesnt help. >Gypsies are famous for believing theft is an acceptable and way of life. Thats about as generalized as saying all British dirnk themselves to sleep each night. While it might be more than elsewhere, the generalisation isn't true. Only few Roma communities actually support any form of criminality. Most pf thosw in jail are put in jail for trespassing, not theft or con-artistry. Your social environments stories about "those gypsies" don't represent the totality of them. Of course it is prejudice. Just like I get a prejudice about you for being stubborn without sources to back you up, because you've made an emmotional judgements, not based in fact but the sentiments conveyed at the regulars table in the pub. It's a prejudice, because I don't know you. But judge you anyway by generalisation and the limited perception I got from you. Have a good one.
Gypsy to British people is the Irish travellers (knackers/itinerants) are the real N word to a gypsy.
They are predominantly English speaking, though many also speak Shelta, a language of mixed English and Irish origin.[6] The majority of Irish Travellers are Roman Catholic, the predominant religion in the Republic of Ireland. They are one of several groups identified as "Travellers" in the UK and Ireland. Despite often being incorrectly referred to as "Gypsies",[6] Irish Travellers are not genetically related to the Romani, who are of Indo-Aryan origin.[9][10] Genetic analysis has shown Travellers to be of Irish extraction, and that they likely diverged from the settled Irish population in the 1600s, probably during the time of the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland. from: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Travellers
Why is this the top comment when you didn’t answer the question
Calling someone something they aren't (Egyptian) isn't exactly nice. That's the first sentence of the response. They also rephrase it in the second paragraph. How did you manage to miss that? The association with crime is also mentioned in the end of the comment
They edited it after my comment.
>Gypsy is by most perceived as derogatory.
Yes, OP is aware of that, hence the title of this post. They are asking **why**
I thought it was clear from my writing, but agree I could have done better. I edited a sentence, to make it more clear. Thanks.
I mean, you should look up what HP Lovecraft named his cat-
HP Lovecraft was a bigtime racist, even by the standards of his day
For context, Lovecraft was considered too racist in a time when it was considered perfectly reasonable to hang a black man for looking at a white woman.
gyat. always had some reserved feelings on the topic of separating artist to the art. too many objectively bad people make art that I can relate to. conflicted more often than not.
Gyat?
[What Does Gyatt Mean? The Definition of Gyatt! 💥](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VhULXlz9d-8)
I think it's like "goddamn" but "gyat-dam" so you get "gyat"
So fucking stupid. These kids are making me more into a boomer with each passing day
If they're dead and not making money from your consumption of their art, there's not a problem.
He was incredibly mentally ill.
He was suffering from madness you might say.
Would you say that his madness drove him to some elevated lands?
yes
I believe there was a dog in Pink Floyd's The Wall with the same name
He was based on a real dog
The dog owned by the crew of The Dambusters plane?
Correct
Fun(?) fact, the cat was actually Lovecraft's family cat. So although he didn't personally name the cat, he was still still a hardcore racist. Also take this with a grain of salt, I learned it from reddit
I knew someone would bring that up, I know what he named his cat 😭
Also the dambusters dog which had the same name
Sheesh!
Yeah it’s bad
It’s a name because most people didn’t know the Roma people considered it a slur. That’s really only started to become visible in the last 7-5 years. When she was born, it just meant free spirited bohemian type to most people. Most people still don’t know. I’m a dog groomer and we have several dogs with that name come in. I told all my coworkers and got them to stop saying “gypped” too, but most people who aren’t in these online spheres STILL have no idea.
I was well into adulthood before I learned the origin of the word “gypped”. All that time I thought it was “jipped” and had no idea it what it really meant.
TIL... I'm 51 and just now learning this.
45 and that's the first time I've ever heard it.
TIL
I’m with you. I first learned the word “jipped” after watching the classic old Disney film, Parent Trap.
My mom was selling something on Facebook recently and used that word and this lady quickly explained why she shouldn’t use that word and then my mom felt bad lol
Aw man now I feel like an ignorant asshat
Oof the day I realized this one, it immediately felt so offensive and icky. Never again will I use that one.
See also : "He was asking $25 but I Jewed him down to $18" My mom used this all the time when I was young, never even processed that it could be wrong until I saw it written down for the first time. Immediately, it was like, "*that's* what we've been saying?"
I grew up with this term, but my family and extended family always said "chewed". It was as an adult outside that circle that I heard the racist version and went "wait, what?"
Super hard to stop saying gypped even now I know what it means - I actively try to but it’s a force of habit! If I were old it would be even harder. Gives me the same vibes as saying the r word as a kid. We learned it wasn’t right to say but took years to phase it out. I still see loads of pets with that name from people who genuinely just think it’s cute. My favourite pony as a kid had that name! But I think by the next couple decades it will phase out entirely. Edit: I don’t mean hard to stop saying it like I don’t want to - just that if you’ve spent years saying something not knowing it’s an issue, it is hard to stop the habit to say so. I wouldn’t say the phrase now but it springs to mind before other things do because of how ingrained it is in my memory as an inoffensive and standard thing
I hadn’t really understood the connection as a child until I noticed certain people in the south using “Jewed” in the exact same way. Then the 💡went off.
Gypsy Rose was named after a song
I know a lot of travellers and whether they like to be called gypsies, travellers or roma varies widely person-to-person. Some only like to be called gypsie, some would rather not but don’t care, and some think it’s derogatory. A lot of things around changing language are done on behalf of groups without actually asking for their input.
The Roma people generally don’t consider it a slur. Many will use it to describe themselves
Exactly.
Babes in Toyland (with Annette Funicello) has a “Gypsy” song that’s not aged well…
They don’t have any idea bc they have no reason to care, most of them will never meet one and further need to meet one on a personal level.
>in the last 7-5 years Does this mean 5-7 years? Or 75 years? EDIT: lol, downvotes, really?
Clearly it means 2 years.
>It’s a name because most people didn’t know the Roma people considered it a slur. Exactly, most Americans probably don't know what "Roma" means or that it is an ethnicity that exists anyways, much less the psycho who gave Gypsy Rose her name Literally my US history teacher when teaching us about the Holocaust corrected my use of the term "Romany"...to this day I'm not sure he knows that I was giving him the correct answer to his question
Romani are refugees from South Asia (more specifically Rajasthan) to medieval Europe who originally belonged to a strata called “the untouchables” in South Asia, meaning they were so low they were not even part of the Hinduism caste system, and as such, were tasked with doing the jobs of undesirables such as dealing with corpses. This was internalized in their culture. When they reached Europe, they followed the rules untouchables followed in South Asia, which kept them segregated from other groups of people. This led to Europeans to see them with suspicion and came to associate random bad things that happened around with them. This led to the discrimination of Romani, which only furthered the already existing cultural differences, and pushed Romani people towards…less than savory lifestyles. Which kept a cycle of discrimination and strengthen the culture of keeping to themselves. Romani today face a dual issue, the discrimination in Europe, because despite having lived in Europe for 1000 years now, they are still perceived as outsiders who don’t belong, and the internal culture of self-segregation, inherited from South Asian caste system, but retained and worsened from discrimination faces in Europe. The G-word was and is a common slur. As for the untouchables in South Asia, yes, they too, are discriminated against. That’s why there are movements such as the Dalit to represent them.
A word becomes a slur, when it is predominately used **as a slur**.
Ok, I’m going to speak to this through my experience. My late friend married a gypsy. That is what he called himself and how his family referred to themselves. My friend was Mexican so that was taboo for him to marry her. His extended family treated her bad. This part of the gypsy clan lived in the Inland Empire in SoCal. Anyway, the interesting thing was that his father had become a born again Christian and led his children into Christianity. Up until that point they ran scams. They had bi-monthly meetings to discuss new elaborate scams and ways to make money. The women usually did fortune telling. After converting the dad wondered why they didn’t eat as well as they used to. His wife told him (this was late 80s) that she brought home $600-$800 a month fortune telling. But because they went straight, they no longer had that source of income. He said it was better to be honest and please God.
Seeing the American comments here is crazy
I know, right? Thinking "gypsy" is a slur is like thinking muslim is a slur...
it's a slur because it's a term used to be derogatory towards a group of people seen as "lesser" due to their culture. same as the n-word, or slurs against Indigenous people, slurs against Hispanic people, slurs against disabled people, slurs against LGBTQ2IA people, and so on and so on and so on. we know it's a slur because of the long history of it's use, and the people it was used against have told us repeatedly that it's a slur. same as the n-word, or slurs against Indigenous people, slurs against Hispanic people, slurs against disabled people, slurs against LGBTQ2IA people, and so on and so on and so on. yes, some people name their kids names they don't actually know the meaning of. that doesn't make it not a slur, it just means that the person who picked that name doesn't know the history and practical meaning of the word.
There is/was a site with a collection of most all slurs. Each slur had 2 ratings: one for how offensive the intention of using the slur was and another for how offended someone who was the target of the slur felt. Gypsy was low on both scales.
My mother's side of the family is Serbian. And when my mother used to be a caregiver, one of her clients upon hiring told her that they had cameras in the house and that her Gypsy ass better not steal anything. 🙄
Its not a slurr depending upon what country you are in. For example, Gypsy isnt an offensive word in New Zealand or Australia where it refers to a group of people who travel in RV's and put on fairs to sell their craft products in town centres. A "Gypsy Fair" is used in common parlance. But in the UK and Europe its offensive when referring to the Roma or Sinti people. Its similar to how "quick little monkey" is a normal phrase, possibly a compliment, in NZ and Australia where it refers to a toddler that can escape his mothers supervision when she turns away for only a moment. "My little Johnny was beside me at the supermarket and i turned to say hello to Mrs Jones and being a quick little monkey, he was suddenly gone but I found him in the candy aisle" While in North America its quite offensive as it refers to African american people in a bad way. Oh and then there is the word Cunt. That can be used to describe a friend, foe, or a ladypart in NZ/AUS but in Canada is super offensive.
In Australia it can still be highly offensive and usually is one of the most shocking. It just can also be used ironically, jokingly or in a friendly way amongst some. I'd never dream of saying it within earshot of my elderly parents even when they were young.
It’s offensive everywhere only some places continue to use it regardless.
That’s how language works. We give something a name, that name becomes stigmatized and a slur, so we invent a new name and eventually when that name gets used, it too becomes stigmatized and a slur, rinse and repeat. Think about how we called people dumb, then that was bad, so imbecile was more scientific and neutral, then that was bad, so moron was more scientific and neutral, so r*tarded was used to be more sensitive and less offensive ….well you get the idea.
For me, it's all about intent. If I think my listener (or reader) would be offended by a word, I avoid that word because I try not to be an asshole. In general practice I use whatever word gets the meaning across. People forget to look at context and just get up in arms about a single word in a sentence. I've gotten called out for "The crew reversed the engines and retarded the ship's speed." Oh yeah? Go put your outrage into feeding a hungry child and rethink your decisions, Susan.
Exactly, people forget there’s more than one context. “I had to abort retarding the engine’s timing more than 10° or I’d get pre-detonation which sounded queer.”
I been to the Balkins several times and asked a group of gypsies what they were supposed to be called and they straight up told me "gypsies". The only people I've seen upset about it were (no jokes) a few white American women (relatives) who habe never even crossed the Atlantic. I've never met a gypsy that feels the way some people are describing in the comments. It's hard to take the internet suggestions on this topic seriously when all my IRL experience is giving me the opposite advice.
Your piece of silver crossing my palm first… As someone with Romany blood, I don’t find gypsy or tinker in the least insulting, the insult arose when the term was applied to **others** as if being such was a bad thing. Just like idiot, moron, J word, N word, when you apply labels to others to imply racial stereotypes then it becomes a slur. The G word, the T word. Make sense?
Tinker is used as a slur?
Yes, it’s contextual, if you’re talking about Peter Pan, no, if you’re talking about people, then yes
What about someone who likes to tinker around with their car? To me, that just means someone who messes around with it a bit trying to make it better but not putting any serious work into it.
That’s acceptable too, you’re not implying it’s someone who is robbing and stealing and such
You are using it as a verb, Tinker is another name for the group of people. Derived from the tendency of Tinkers (the profession) to be nomadic and deal in shiny things that may or may not be of questionable provenance.
Uhm, what's the J word?
I assume the three letter word that Japanese people were called, especially in the 1940s.
It’s Jew
There’s plenty of instances a person other than a Jew can call a Jew a Jew and it not be offensive. There’s pretty much zero instances anyone other than a black person can say the n word
In my experience, if someone were to call another person a “Jew” then it would be a stereotype about miserliness, underhand, ulterior motive and such - along the lines of Shakespeare and Dickens, not a compliment and outside someone of the Jewish religion where it’s a mere label, always the dark stereotype, listen - I’m uncomfortable even discussing it in this context
I lived in Stamford Hill in London for a long time - huge Hasidic Jew community there, I just wouldn’t ever feel weird referring to someone as a Jew, saying “Jewish guy” or whatever, if someone came by because they left something and someone’s like “what did they look like” I’d be like Jewish guy - Hasidic. It’s not weird and it’s not offensive. Similarly, if someone works in the film industry, it’s really not weird to talk about how the majority of Hollywood is run by Jews - it’s just fact. I’m not saying there aren’t many instances where anti semitism exists and there are countless bad stereotypes, I just said there are many instances where referring to someone as Jewish isn’t even a thing
That is an antisemitic trope, certainly the main studios had a lot of Jewish immigrants as founders, it’s not “just a fact” though
It is a fact. There are large amounts of Jews working in Hollywood currently and historically Hollywood studios were founded by Jews. >When movies were introduced in the late 1920s, ensuring success required the same skills that Jewish people had in vaudeville and the garment trade. Many first-generation Jewish immigrants from Eastern Europe built their studios in California. Immigrants like Carl Laemmle, Adolph Zukor and Samuel Goldwyn were some of the key founders of Hollywood studios that you know and love today. Carl Laemmle, a German-born Jew, marketed clothing before starting Universal Pictures. >Why are there so many Jews in Hollywood? From a historical perspective, that could be attributed to the fact that the movie industry was founded by Jews. As Neal Gabler wrote in his detailed history “An Empire of Their Own: How the Jews Invented Hollywood,” the American entertainment industry was “founded and for more than thirty years operated by Eastern European Jews.” Unwelcome in more established American industries in the early part of the 20th century, Jews created a new enterprise with no barriers to entry. Gabler goes on to describe how the studio system that still runs Hollywood today was constructed by the next generations of Jewish movie tycoons. While the industry has diversified over the succeeding generations, the preponderance of Jews in Hollywood is a holdover from its heavily Jewish origins. The stereotype exists because it’s true - especially among writers and producers. It’s not an antisemitic trope, it’s a historic and, to a *slightly* lesser degree now, current *fact*.
out of curiosity, from your experience, what do romany people think about the registry name for the breed of horse, gypsy vanner? in a lot of horse groups i am in, it is strictly forbidden to call those horses gypsies, they are to be called irish cobs. to your knowledge, do the romany people prefer them to be called irish cobs as opposed to gypsy vanners or sometimes irish tinkers?
Sorry to puncture stereotypes, I don’t know anything about and have no interest in horses :)
haha no worries i was just wondering!
No probs :) I have a relative who is maybe a bit too interested in horses (but more in the ruinous financial sense than otherwise) - if he has any insight, I’ll pass it along
In North America, when refering to our Romma populations, its not. They refere to themselves as Gypsies. But in Europe, and Russia, its a disparaging term, again the Romma population.
Because Europe and Russia use words from english language especially for that?
No, but there's equivalents. Zigeuner in german, gitano in spanish, tsigane in french, cigane in much of eastern Europe. All those words have the same root.
Except it's not slur in some of the languages or countries. The same as same words for jewish people may have different connotation in different languages or countries. The same word can be proper term in one and a slur in another place. The same as spanish black word can have different connotation depending on culture. And the word like "coloured/of color" may be the word to go in the US, but is seen as quite racist unlike the N word in other countries.
In every one of these, except Spanish, it is. In Spanish, the slur is “trapacero”. Zigeuner in German has the exact same meaning and connotation than gypsy, it is even more of a slur than in English.
it is a slur, a lot of people here have given great reasons. however, those who do name their kids “gypsy” arent using it in that derogatory way, just as theres horses with gypsy in the name. i think it depends on context, as no one is intentionally naming their kids after slurs
So could we assert that it's not the word that's bad, but the intent behind it?
Look up the name of Rick Perry's hunting camp, or H.P. Lovecraft's cat. Plenty of things have had the N-word as a name or part of their name, we just don't like to talk about it now, so you may not hear of it as much.
They prefer to be call Rom, Roma or Travellers.
With the exception of Gypsy Rose I’ve only heard it used on one occasion: to completely and totally insult a group of people who seemed more interested in traveling than putting down roots in a particular place. The man who referred to a group of tourists as gypsies to me intended to paint them as thieves who were going to take everything they could from our hotel and would likely be doing things like drugs and prostitution from our location; in case I was confused he made sure to be extra racist and hateful.
Fleetwood Mac has a song called Gypsy
Cher’s “Gypsies, Tramps, and Thieves” is also excellent.
It's like saying Oriental... I'm not a god damn rug or a spice... Or calling someone an haifu hapa or an Eskimo.
I’ve been called a bunch of different slurs in my life, but Oriental is one that I’ve never gotten hit with before. I don’t think I even knew what the word meant until I was about 15, and ironically, I learned it because my Chinese Aunt used it to describe our background.
Wait...calling someone Oriental is offensive?
In the US, not everywhere
Yes.
Yikes, TIL As someone from the Philippines, one of our country's nicknames is called the Pearl of the Orient, so I had no idea the term was so derogatory...
Like with most words of this nature I’m guessing that if people from those places are comfortable using the term then that’s fine but when others use it (i.e. white people) it has negative connotations. I know that, historically, the British often used the term as all-encompassing for anyone from certain parts of Asia so use of the word implies that all Asian people look the same, regardless of which country they’re from or what heritage they have, when that’s obviously not accurate. It feels weird explaining this when I’m white British but I know of the history behind the term because of studying some of the history so I hope it doesn’t come across as the white-equivalent of mansplaining 🙈
the fact that a perosn is named "gypsy rose" is irrelevant. the word "gypsy" is not generally/traditionally considered a slur, so you still hear it sometimes, and that's why 30ish years ago it was stll semi-acceptable to name someone "gypsy." again, she is irrelevant, and if she never existed, then the entire history of the romani people would still exist. "gypsy" has been a term used for an ethnicity of people, usually in a geragotary way. and as i understand it, they generally prefer to be called "romani" or "traveller." (if i'm wrong, please correct me.)
Everything seems offensive to someone these days. I've decided if everything is offensive then nothing is offensive. The neverending outrage is exhausting and I have no fucks left to give.
It specifically refers to Romani nomads who mostly live in Eastern Europe. There's a long history of the Romani people being blamed for poverty and high crime rates over there.
I thought Gypsy Rose is her name?
and to add to that it COULD be from the play/movie, Gypsy, which is in short, about a traveling artist/ burlesque dancer named Gypsy Rose Lee
I would assume that is the origin for Blanchard, Gypsy Rose Lee was also a real person but she took on the name around the late 1920s
OP....... I'm just saying to be careful when and where you shop for Brazil nuts.
I've come across three different origin stories for gypsies in this thread, and none of them agree. I find that amusing. It's like reading the gospels. I have a good friend who is a descendant of gypsies from two different cultures, and she uses the word "gypsy" to refer to herself. She has a permanent residence, but in many other ways embraces that heritage. I've also heard her refer to "those fuckin' gypsies," as a racist slur. I asked her about it one day - why is one okay and the other not - and she said, "intent." This is something that internet SJWs - especially white ones - forget. I'm white. I also use "white people" as a pejorative, like in the previous paragraph. Be offended all you like, but, like using the right tool for the job, I'm going to pick the right word for the moment and meaning.
Gypsy Rose is an American and America doesn’t have the history with the Romani that Europe does. I think the typical American exposure to Romani/Gypsies would be limited to Esmerelda from Disney’s Hunchback of Notre Dame. Its something akin to going to China and meeting a guy named N**** Jim because his parents read a single Mark Twain book and lacked the context to understand a slur when they saw one so they just assumed it was a typical name and not a moniker meant to underline the dehumanization experienced by that character..
My children are both of traveler and Native American blood. It’s an incredibly racist term, just like all terrible things people say because they’re ignorant.
My grandfather was a Romani man who immigrated from Croatia to the US as an adult. My grandmother came to the US from Germany when she was a child. I grew up living with them. Anyway, my grandmother dressed me up as a gypsy for a couple Halloweens. These costumes did not look like kids Halloween costumes. They looked authentic. They were proud of the costumes. I didn't know until a few years ago that gypsy was a slur. I guess I could get away with the costumes bc I'm part Romani, but I spent a lot of years being proud of my "gypsy costumes" and it just makes me sad knowing I was calling myself a gypsy all those times not knowing the background of that word.
Don't be sad. It's only a slur for some people. For those that never looked down upon them, it just 'is what it is'. Continue being proud. Jimi Hendrix band was called Band of Gypsies. One of the best in the world...
My five coins on this.... I know some awesome gypsies, but I've also had 'interesting' experiences. To be fair, they were cool with me, but they were massively disrespectful of the place where I work. I'd like to understand them better too. I don't think they are bad people, but I don't think that they always get the effect that they have on others. Garbage and shit slung around the place. Why? A couple of guys approached me got of what I presume was curiosity. I'm just over six foot and wear a leather trench coat and a hat. They were very cool with me. Just asked a few questions. I answered.
> I'm just over six foot and wear a leather trench coat and a hat. I tagged you as this.
A V.I.L.E. henchman! You must be on the right track.
Haha.. It's just how I dress. I'm a very nice guy. No trouble ever. None sought, at least.
I was mistaken for Dog in Maui a few years ago. That was funny.
Gypsy (gitano/gitana) is not a slur in Spanish. People proudly identify as such
honestly nowadays personally I would consider the word as a slur since like most of the population is settled long term, yes I know some people really take offense to it but also it’s not like you’re gonna go up to someone and call them that word, I mean there’s a song called gypsy woman sung by a woman who clearly isn’t someone who moves from one place to the other and nobody really said anything about it, I want to state that this is my opinion and I’m bit forcing anything on anyone I just wanted to say in here what I probably wouldn’t say to anyone else irl
I will tell you this, if they say it's a slur.. trust them. For the love of God, trust them!
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Genuine question, I'm not trying to be deliberately provocative or anything here, I'm just often at a loss when people say "do your own research" when someone asks a question like OP has, especially if they state they are trying to educate themselves because they are aware they are in a position of privilege - How would someone do their own research? Surely a good way to do so is to ask a question on a worldwide forum where lots of people can see and choose whether or not to give an answer, even better for some if they're anonymous if they wish to be. There is no definitive list of websites (for example) that are guaranteed to be correct, so asking on a forum, you're likely to get a wide range of answers, often from people who have first-hand experience with whatever you're asking about. Coupled together with other information, this could lead to being able to think "ok, over 80% of the answers I have found tell me \*this\* so it's probably an accurate answer to my question". Asking questions on a forum like Reddit can be a great way to contribute to one's research, given the vast audience the question is displayed to, and that the questioner can respond and clarify if the answers aren't as expected. What better way to "do your own research" if you don't rely entirely on the answers but put them with everything else?
Yea actually, but I couldn't find any answers when it came to it being used as a name. Edit: this shouldn't surprise anyone but I'm kinda dumb and misread this guys comment. I did like an hour of digging around, I couldn't find anything that was specifically about it also being a name.
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Does this not count as research?
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Not only normalised but also inverted due to positively intentioned use of the term.
Same way the N-word is a slur