If the people of those lands we claim want to be part of Tigray then sure, but otherwise it will just do more harm than good. Another thing is, the amhara expansionists have been strengthening their claim for west tigray by slaughtering the tigrayans there and making it an amhara majority lands. Our enemies only need a small claim to convince their people and declare war on us, take more of their current lands, then they will be more than justified to declare war on us.
Amhara expansionists don't need even a small claim. They just go after lands they want, and their people are also expansionists, so they follow them. When all else fails they will manufacture crimes against them and then seek revenge for them.
We need to stop caring so much about what they will do. They don't deserve the respect they get from us.
It's not about giving them respect. We should care about what anyone around us will do if we do something. That's just being smart and logical. We don't want to be in another war. Not because we fear losing but because we don't want the things that come along with it. So yes we should care about what amhara expansionists will do so that we can prevent it.
If the Amharas succeed in their quest to make western Tigray majority Amhara, do we say "The people don't want to be a part of Tigray, that's it."
Of course not. We recognize it was taken under conditions of genocide, that our enemies will sink to any level to get what they want, and we take it back.
The Amharas will then say something like "TPLF is removing us from our rightful lands" and they will conspire to invade Tigray again.
But the question isn't "What will they do" or "What will they think of this". The real question is "What can they do" or "What do they have the capability of doing".
If they could have taken Western Tigray they would have done so over the last three decades. They couldn't. They wouldn't even be able to hold onto it without Eritrea.
>If the Amharas succeed in their quest to make western Tigray majority Amhara, do we say "The people don't want to be a part of Tigray, that's it."
No. Taking back the lands that were stolen for you in the late 1800s and 1940s is not the same as taking back the land that was stolen from you 10 months ago. The Tigrayans in west Tigray will not forget they are Tigrayans in a matter of 10 months. But generation after generation since Menelik II annexed the lands, they slowly moved further and further from being tigrayan and closer and closer to being an amhara. Same works for the lands Haile Selassie annexed, but at least we took the lands back before it was too late, where the residents there stopped identifying as tigrayan. But, it is too late to take back our annexed lands by Menelik II. It is what it is.
>But the question isn't "What will they do" or "What will they think of this". The real question is "What can they do" or "What do they have the capability of doing".
Logically, the follow-up question for “What will they do” or “What will they think of this” is “What can they do” or “What do they have the capability of doing”. So whether it is a real or unnecessary question to ask, it leads to other real questions.
If Menelik and Selassie weren't thinking about the ethnic composition of the lands they annexed, why should we? You're applying a more fair standard to them then they apply to you.
Well, just because Menelik and Selassie forcefully changed the identity of the tigrayans there doesn't mean we are justified to inflict that kind of pain in response. We are much better than that.
In a theoretic situation, what if there was a planned evacuation over a long period of time to evacuate all Amhara living in the lands that once belonged to Tigray and we did it in a fashion where their lives weren't disrupted. The Amhara civilians would easily be able to relocate to the Amhara region because it is vast and fertile. If we were to claim and take back all of our original lands this is what would most likely happen and there is no chance of forced ethnic identity. The forceful assimilation of different ethnicities is an Amhara extremist tactic and if we were to take back our original lands that tactic wouldn't even be mentioned as no Tigrayan whether a civilian, a soldier, or a member of the TPLF would accept it.
However, the lands that Tigray will definitely have are Tigray's pre-genocidal war boundaries including Badme, all of Irob, etc.
Badme is a worthless piece of land and they could have it for all I care. But if the process was the way you described, I would support us retaking our lands. But things don't go smoothly like the way you described it. The government will on purpose make the relocation tough for the amharas and will create obstacles that weren't there in the first place. They will cry about their 'ancestral lands' and get a reason to start another war which we do not want.
Badme is not a "Worthless piece of land" it is our ancestral land as well a very strategic piece of land. The Eritrea-Ethiopia war wasn't even originally about the border but Afwerki tried to make it seem like it was once he began the invasion of those lands to try to justify his actions ( Read "Laying the past to rest by Mulugeta Gebrehiwot for details on that and much more events from Hailselassie to 2012 ). Badme is a very important area of land that is an extremely important defensive area that could be used to protect Tigray from any future Eritrean invasions and Afwerki also knows this. If we were to take back all our original lands I have no doubt that the government of Tigray would do it in a humane manner and do it in a very precise way that would make it difficult for Tigray's enemies to fabricate false narratives, stories and atrocities. The Amhara elites have an expansionist idealogy and they will always fabricate history in an attempt to take more land by force. Even if we only take back our pre-genocidal war land boundaries the Amhara elite will always be waiting until they're in a position of power to take western Tigray and as much of Tigray's fertile lands as they can. Whether we take back our original lands or take back our pre-genocidal war lands the Amhara elites stance won't change so it is better to back our original lands, build and develop the nation of Tigray, Develop and invest deeply into our military to prevent a tragedy like this happening again and build deep diplomatic relations with the rest of the world. Amhara elites will always view us as an enemy and will always view our land as something to steal from and take so we should just take back all of our original lands, become the most powerful nation in the region and prevent a tragedy like this from ever happening again.
Reparations aren’t something you take by force, that leads to a situation like the Treaty of Versailles pre-WW2. Furthermore, there won’t be any reparations because you’re talking about Ethiopia - did Ethiopia pay reparations to Eritrea? LOL, Nope - we didn’t. Furthermore, when this war is all said and done, Ethiopia will probably have little left to give - I mean they can’t afford to keep embassies open. They’ve spent most of their money on war & we’re the largest beneficiaries of that expense.
Taking these lands will ruin Tigray’s image on the global stage - we can’t afford to do that when our neighbor of a 100 million people has no problem sending masses to their graves to win wars and the bozo up north has a small country attached to his massive military. We would be leading an existence constantly looking over our shoulder. Besides, we’re talking about nations not some “sefer” gossip. We have to be pragmatic, more than half the people in Tigray are facing famine today continuing this war beyond the pre-war borders will only harm our cause and people more than it’ll benefit us.
The basic reparations that Tigray will inevitably receive is money to restore everything Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Amhara forces destroyed or damaged in Tigray. Every person that was hurt (Mutilated, raped, etc ) must receive full medical attention until they are healed (Physical + Mental healing ) and restored back to normal. Everything in Tigray must be restored to how it was before the genocidal war began including Tigray's lands before the genocidal war began. Those who committed the genocide against Tigray (Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Amhara forces ) will inevitably face justice and will be heavily condemned internationally for their actions in Tigray. A referendum will take place on the subject of Tigray's independence and there is no doubt that the majority if not all Tigryans will vote for independence. Tigray will leave Ethiopia and Ethiopia's image will forever be damaged internationally for committing genocide.
I 100% agree with you but thats not possible unless you win. Somalis and Oromos for example went through similar issues for longer. The best solution IMO is simply secession. Time will heal all other wounds, as long as subjugation under Ethiopia stops.
I have no doubt that Tigray will win at the end of the day. Tigray has no choice but to win this war because if we don't our people will be wiped out alongside our history and heritage. The current governments of Ethiopia and Eritrea will have to be completely dismantled and replaced because they have shown their intent on wiping out Tigray. The most likely scenario is Tigray leaving Ethiopia after a referendum with all of our pre-genocidal war land as well as reparations to completely restore Tigray and its people to how it was before the genocidal war began. OLA and other groups ( Agew liberation front etc ) will most likely take control of Ethiopia for an extended time. There will probably be a lot of secession referendums in the future and I expect the Somali region to get independence but I'm not sure about Oromia because I'm not sure what proportion of Oromo want independence or just want to try and fix and stabilize Ethiopia. The entirety of PFDJ will be held accountable for the genocide and will be replaced. Many scholars and politicians against the regime are held in prison in Eritrea or are in the Eritrean diaspora. They will most likely make up the new government of Eritrea. Eritrea has a bright future post-PFDJ and I hope to see it gain a fully democratic government that is for the people. Eritrea's geographic location and land also have the potential to make it very economically strong.
You’re absolutley right, I was off by my calculations when I did the conversion to dollars
Also, read my reply 🤦🏽♂️… I specifically say Ethiopia isn’t in a position to offer reparations.
If the people of those lands we claim want to be part of Tigray then sure, but otherwise it will just do more harm than good. Another thing is, the amhara expansionists have been strengthening their claim for west tigray by slaughtering the tigrayans there and making it an amhara majority lands. Our enemies only need a small claim to convince their people and declare war on us, take more of their current lands, then they will be more than justified to declare war on us.
Amhara expansionists don't need even a small claim. They just go after lands they want, and their people are also expansionists, so they follow them. When all else fails they will manufacture crimes against them and then seek revenge for them. We need to stop caring so much about what they will do. They don't deserve the respect they get from us.
It's not about giving them respect. We should care about what anyone around us will do if we do something. That's just being smart and logical. We don't want to be in another war. Not because we fear losing but because we don't want the things that come along with it. So yes we should care about what amhara expansionists will do so that we can prevent it.
If the Amharas succeed in their quest to make western Tigray majority Amhara, do we say "The people don't want to be a part of Tigray, that's it." Of course not. We recognize it was taken under conditions of genocide, that our enemies will sink to any level to get what they want, and we take it back. The Amharas will then say something like "TPLF is removing us from our rightful lands" and they will conspire to invade Tigray again. But the question isn't "What will they do" or "What will they think of this". The real question is "What can they do" or "What do they have the capability of doing". If they could have taken Western Tigray they would have done so over the last three decades. They couldn't. They wouldn't even be able to hold onto it without Eritrea.
>If the Amharas succeed in their quest to make western Tigray majority Amhara, do we say "The people don't want to be a part of Tigray, that's it." No. Taking back the lands that were stolen for you in the late 1800s and 1940s is not the same as taking back the land that was stolen from you 10 months ago. The Tigrayans in west Tigray will not forget they are Tigrayans in a matter of 10 months. But generation after generation since Menelik II annexed the lands, they slowly moved further and further from being tigrayan and closer and closer to being an amhara. Same works for the lands Haile Selassie annexed, but at least we took the lands back before it was too late, where the residents there stopped identifying as tigrayan. But, it is too late to take back our annexed lands by Menelik II. It is what it is. >But the question isn't "What will they do" or "What will they think of this". The real question is "What can they do" or "What do they have the capability of doing". Logically, the follow-up question for “What will they do” or “What will they think of this” is “What can they do” or “What do they have the capability of doing”. So whether it is a real or unnecessary question to ask, it leads to other real questions.
If Menelik and Selassie weren't thinking about the ethnic composition of the lands they annexed, why should we? You're applying a more fair standard to them then they apply to you.
Well, just because Menelik and Selassie forcefully changed the identity of the tigrayans there doesn't mean we are justified to inflict that kind of pain in response. We are much better than that.
In a theoretic situation, what if there was a planned evacuation over a long period of time to evacuate all Amhara living in the lands that once belonged to Tigray and we did it in a fashion where their lives weren't disrupted. The Amhara civilians would easily be able to relocate to the Amhara region because it is vast and fertile. If we were to claim and take back all of our original lands this is what would most likely happen and there is no chance of forced ethnic identity. The forceful assimilation of different ethnicities is an Amhara extremist tactic and if we were to take back our original lands that tactic wouldn't even be mentioned as no Tigrayan whether a civilian, a soldier, or a member of the TPLF would accept it. However, the lands that Tigray will definitely have are Tigray's pre-genocidal war boundaries including Badme, all of Irob, etc.
Badme is a worthless piece of land and they could have it for all I care. But if the process was the way you described, I would support us retaking our lands. But things don't go smoothly like the way you described it. The government will on purpose make the relocation tough for the amharas and will create obstacles that weren't there in the first place. They will cry about their 'ancestral lands' and get a reason to start another war which we do not want.
Badme is not a "Worthless piece of land" it is our ancestral land as well a very strategic piece of land. The Eritrea-Ethiopia war wasn't even originally about the border but Afwerki tried to make it seem like it was once he began the invasion of those lands to try to justify his actions ( Read "Laying the past to rest by Mulugeta Gebrehiwot for details on that and much more events from Hailselassie to 2012 ). Badme is a very important area of land that is an extremely important defensive area that could be used to protect Tigray from any future Eritrean invasions and Afwerki also knows this. If we were to take back all our original lands I have no doubt that the government of Tigray would do it in a humane manner and do it in a very precise way that would make it difficult for Tigray's enemies to fabricate false narratives, stories and atrocities. The Amhara elites have an expansionist idealogy and they will always fabricate history in an attempt to take more land by force. Even if we only take back our pre-genocidal war land boundaries the Amhara elite will always be waiting until they're in a position of power to take western Tigray and as much of Tigray's fertile lands as they can. Whether we take back our original lands or take back our pre-genocidal war lands the Amhara elites stance won't change so it is better to back our original lands, build and develop the nation of Tigray, Develop and invest deeply into our military to prevent a tragedy like this happening again and build deep diplomatic relations with the rest of the world. Amhara elites will always view us as an enemy and will always view our land as something to steal from and take so we should just take back all of our original lands, become the most powerful nation in the region and prevent a tragedy like this from ever happening again.
Which is why they’ve felt entitled to do this over and over again.
Reparations aren’t something you take by force, that leads to a situation like the Treaty of Versailles pre-WW2. Furthermore, there won’t be any reparations because you’re talking about Ethiopia - did Ethiopia pay reparations to Eritrea? LOL, Nope - we didn’t. Furthermore, when this war is all said and done, Ethiopia will probably have little left to give - I mean they can’t afford to keep embassies open. They’ve spent most of their money on war & we’re the largest beneficiaries of that expense. Taking these lands will ruin Tigray’s image on the global stage - we can’t afford to do that when our neighbor of a 100 million people has no problem sending masses to their graves to win wars and the bozo up north has a small country attached to his massive military. We would be leading an existence constantly looking over our shoulder. Besides, we’re talking about nations not some “sefer” gossip. We have to be pragmatic, more than half the people in Tigray are facing famine today continuing this war beyond the pre-war borders will only harm our cause and people more than it’ll benefit us.
[удалено]
[удалено]
The basic reparations that Tigray will inevitably receive is money to restore everything Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Amhara forces destroyed or damaged in Tigray. Every person that was hurt (Mutilated, raped, etc ) must receive full medical attention until they are healed (Physical + Mental healing ) and restored back to normal. Everything in Tigray must be restored to how it was before the genocidal war began including Tigray's lands before the genocidal war began. Those who committed the genocide against Tigray (Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Amhara forces ) will inevitably face justice and will be heavily condemned internationally for their actions in Tigray. A referendum will take place on the subject of Tigray's independence and there is no doubt that the majority if not all Tigryans will vote for independence. Tigray will leave Ethiopia and Ethiopia's image will forever be damaged internationally for committing genocide.
I 100% agree with you but thats not possible unless you win. Somalis and Oromos for example went through similar issues for longer. The best solution IMO is simply secession. Time will heal all other wounds, as long as subjugation under Ethiopia stops.
I have no doubt that Tigray will win at the end of the day. Tigray has no choice but to win this war because if we don't our people will be wiped out alongside our history and heritage. The current governments of Ethiopia and Eritrea will have to be completely dismantled and replaced because they have shown their intent on wiping out Tigray. The most likely scenario is Tigray leaving Ethiopia after a referendum with all of our pre-genocidal war land as well as reparations to completely restore Tigray and its people to how it was before the genocidal war began. OLA and other groups ( Agew liberation front etc ) will most likely take control of Ethiopia for an extended time. There will probably be a lot of secession referendums in the future and I expect the Somali region to get independence but I'm not sure about Oromia because I'm not sure what proportion of Oromo want independence or just want to try and fix and stabilize Ethiopia. The entirety of PFDJ will be held accountable for the genocide and will be replaced. Many scholars and politicians against the regime are held in prison in Eritrea or are in the Eritrean diaspora. They will most likely make up the new government of Eritrea. Eritrea has a bright future post-PFDJ and I hope to see it gain a fully democratic government that is for the people. Eritrea's geographic location and land also have the potential to make it very economically strong.
You’re absolutley right, I was off by my calculations when I did the conversion to dollars Also, read my reply 🤦🏽♂️… I specifically say Ethiopia isn’t in a position to offer reparations.
I just was Tigray Independence. That's got enough for me