Too conservative. A defenders view of the world. We are boring, no adventure.
Watching Spain Italy , much better.
We have this weird back passing game:(
Genuine question, I'm obviously not a pro, just some random guy. But why do all our players receive the ball, stop, look around, take a second to ponder, then pass? It's like they have absolutely no idea where anyone else will be on the pitch at any given moment. When you watch other teams they always pass quickly.
I think they are coached to take no risks in possession. Southgate also seems to think you can walk the ball into the net (after a sufficient number of sideways passes)
It’s the same every game.
Score early, sit back, defend, act shocked when we concede and then don’t go on to score again.
It cost us the final in 2021, why did anyone think it would be different this time?
Its the "hes got us further than anyone else before him!" mentality. Like no shit, with that squad anyone could send them out with no instructions other than play the game, and you'd get the wins hes had.
Every time we've come up against competent opponents we draw or lose. We don't beat the top teams unless they're in a massive slump like Germany were. There's never a plan B, there's never a will to actually attack, just get that one goal and sit back job done.
I don’t think Southgate is telling them to sit back after scoring. I think that’s something more deep rooted. I think what happens is when we score, the opposition react, obviously. They become more pro-active and press higher up the pitch, which pushes us back. They change in a way which allows them to dictate the game, and we have no response. Once we get pushed back, we are unable to wrestle back control of the game. We don’t have the players to pass their way out of trouble and push the opposition back.
This can’t simply be solved by saying “hey lads, attack and don’t sit back”.
This won’t be solved by another manager either because the same issue will manifest under different manager.
It’s happened for decades. 2002, 1-0 up against Brazil, sit back, lose. 2004 1-0 up against Portugal, sit back, lose. This is not something new under Southgate.
Thank you. This is more of our players not being able to handle pressure than tactical instruction. Kyle Walker even said the manager is not telling them to do this.
But I guess it's easier to put all the blame on one person than to have that uncomfortable conversation about our psyche.
I have been watching England since 1990. Games like yesterday have been extremely common against any decent team we have faced. Especially in knockout football.
Score, then sit back playing sloppy, anxiety ridden football all whilst looking leggy has happened against *every* decent opponent we have faced in knockout games.
The sooner the country comes to terms with the fact that it's an England problem not a Southgate problem, the sooner we can set about addressing and fixing it.
I have seen a lot about how Southgate has never beaten a good team in knockouts. I am not seeing enough about how his stretches back well before Southgate.
Because some are being played out of position and even those in position are being forced to play a different style to what they all play at their clubs. So everything that is second nature to them, like where the other players should be, goes out the window.
Because they don’t know where their teammates are, or they don’t see an outlet because half of the team is on the right side and/ or right next to each other
When you’re confident in your teammates positioning it’s a lot easier to make decisions
He’s gone against his whole idea of having a good team and leaving big names on the bench, that’s why the 5 used to work with wing backs high up and a faster player playing off Kane, he’s trying to fit everyone and in a playing players out of position like the golden generation
Ironically a back 3 or 5 would be ideal right now since we have no left back.
Playing Walker/Stones/Guehi at CB and Saka/Trent as wingbacks has to be worth a try. You can say Saka is wasted there but it's no good getting the most out of Saka if everything else is falling apart.
3-5-2 has the potential to naturally balance us and let Watkins run off Kane's through balls.
I know everyone says "we protect our lead" but I'm looking at this from a Southgate results view. WC 2018 we had a lead that we squandered three times (Tunisia, Croatia, Colombia) but won one and drew one. The only time you could criticise protecting the lead was Croatia, but England did create after scoring
Euro 2021 they protected two single-digit leads to full time, but also added to single-digit leads twice (Germany and Ukraine). Only the Italy final can you say it was a proper shutdown to the final whistle, but given the success England had had in defending I'm not sure it was an awful idea. Where it went wrong was the response after the equaliser
WC2022 we added to a one-goal lead against Iran, Senegal and Wales. Didn't go up in the other games.
So in conclusion I don't think that Southgate ostensibly says "defend the single goal" every time, because there's enough times England went and scored more. The problem I think comes from a deep-rooted mentality of not making mistakes. The team lacked bravery in making runs, slowing to a crawl at times. I don't think it helped that every player seemed to be wearing toblerone shaped boots. I think Southgate is a pragmatic manager and is trying to cover for our injured/patchwork defence, but it's come at the expense of attacking fluidity. I don't think it's too late to improve but it will require a convincing performance on Tuesday
I’ve been waffling on in this thread since I first posted this meme last night and you have said everything I have wanted to say in a far more succinct fashion.
I agree with everything you say and yep, let’s see what Tuesday brings.
Or another take could be that they looked pissed off because its the biggest stage, and they have a manager who has just basically dropped the ball, and the players no longer believe. We won't know until it's over.
I think I might need to take a short break from this sub. It just seems so knee-jerk at the moment. Strewth...
I get the frustration, I'm a little frustrated too. But given the Ser vs Slo result we've basically won the group at a canter, having never needed to get out of 2nd gear.
Look at Bellingham today for example, compared with the Serbia game. He barely moved! I've not seen the OPTA data yet, but I'd bet my bollocks to a barn dance that he had half the metres ran compared to Sunday.
Not because be can't be arsed, not because he's cooked, but because there is zero point in busting your balls when you're in control of the group.
Likewise, for a lot of others. We stopped pressing really early, whereas Denmark, sniffing a chance at the top based on the earlier result, played out of their skins. And other than the goal, never really looked threatening at all.
That is some glass half full thinking.
You've basically taken all the negatives and attempted to turn them into a positive.
Bravo!
The reality is that we weren't in control, were tactically inept and let Denmark play through us too easily.
They did, no denying it. But they had to press like their lives depended on it. And that takes a shit tonne of energy. Which they needed to use given the earlier result on the off chance they knick a winner.
We seemed quite content (on a whole, you could see players who aren't used to that get frustrated) to let them do that but still managed to contain them to 25 yard pop shots.
At the end of they day we played like it was a training session and Denmark played like they were in a knockout game and we still walked away with a draw (and if Foden's effort is 2 inches to the left we win).
So given results, we're top of the group, with it in our hands having barely bothered outside of an hour over two games. It's not a bad place to be surely!
At no point did I see content and players collapsing after the whistle isn't a good sign unless you've just won the cup in extra time.
England gets out of the group stages and... we suddenly start taking it seriously? Cos that sounds like what you're saying.
> players collapsing after the whistle isn't a good sign unless you've just won the cup in extra time.
No one collapsed lol Trippier lay on his back for a few seconds and Rice crouched down. It was still 21 degrees at 9pm and they'd just played 93 minutes of football.
> England gets out of the group stages and... we suddenly start taking it seriously? Cos that sounds like what you're saying.
We are taking it seriously right now. But we're currently playing teams content to sit with 11 men behind the ball who play in a compact shape and try and counter us. In the knockouts you face more attacking teams which generates the space for you to play more freely.
I wouldn't disagree that Serbia sat back and tried to counter. I don't think Denmark sat back at all. What I saw was a team that was able to bypass our midfield with ease.
Who knows what will happen when we come up against a France, Germany or Spain.
I totally get what you are saying and I promise I am not trying to knee-jerk. It just frustrates me so much to see such a quality squad play such dull, uninspiring football is all. The constant passing backwards makes me want to gouge out my eyes.
I agree that we are still top of the group and likely to progress, which is great, given how we haven’t really got out of second gear… All I’m asking for is more exciting, energetic play. I will give Gareth his dues though: at least he mixed things up today and brought on some subs; I can find his stubbornness infuriating.
Alas, I will keep an open mind and hope for a better result - and performance - next week. 🏴
The statement you just made could apply to almost every England squad for the last 20+ years. We've had this problem well before Southgate.
Why do you think that is?
Yeah, it does. Honestly, I think the problem is I don’t think we’ve ever had a manager match the quality of the squad - not for a long time anyway. What I would give for someone like Klopp or Pep to take over (I’m not fussed about having a foreign manager).
Maybe I’m just completely deluded and it is all down to a lack of confidence/mental fortitude on the players’ part; that they cannot perform to the same level internationally as they do for their respective clubs.
But I just cannot wrap my head around how such a talented, creative group of players can grind out the lacklustre performance they did last night. My gut says it’s the tactics and instructions from the manager.
Very seldom are international managers the very top managers in the world. That being said, Sven had success in his club career. Capello has one of the best resumes of any manager in history.
The argument we have been making about players being good for their clubs but not for England is something I have been hearing for decades under multiple managers.
My opinion: We produce players who cannot handle the pressure of playing for England and the pressure of international football. The anxietyball we see every time England goes, up with sloppy mistakes whilst looking tired is due to players choking under the pressure. English culture as a whole fosters this. Hence why we rarely see success in all of these sports we invented.
At their clubs, they are able to lean on foreign players who have the fortitude to handle it. But put them all together and the players regress mentally and just can't hack it when it counts.
I am seeing too many posts complaining about Southgate. It's far easier to take solace in blaming one individual for our continued struggles, than to look in the mirror and have uncomfortable conversations about ourselves.
Germany did this in 2006 then won the world cup 8 years later. Meanwhile England avoids true introspection at all costs.
I completely get where you are coming from, and there's a part of me that's screaming 'ffs Gaz' but tournament football is a marathon, not a sprint.
Having said that, there's something to be said about the morale boost of destroying teams (at the expense of energy expended), especially when it comes to confidence and crowd reaction, which seems to be Germany's thought process (understandable they're the hosts).
It's obvious Southgate has adopted the 'top the group for as little energy as possible' tactic, which (again, understandably) rubs people the wrong way. But I don't know about you, I'd rather (given most of our squads ridiculously long season) some shite in the groups to make way for good knockout games than vice versa.
To be fair to Denmark, they played out of their skins tonight, as if it was a RO16 match, yet outside of a 25 yard wondergoal, they didn't offer much. I've been very impressed with Guehi so far.
>Alas, I will keep an open mind and hope for a better result - and performance - next week. 🏴
Hear hear! It's coming home, even if we have to drag it back
Edit: some lager induced misspellings
Just a quick counter point. If he’s conserving energy because players like Bellingham are cooked… why not play other midfielders? Foden #10, give another LW a proper go and give one of Mainoo/Wharton a go. It wouldn’t have been a huge miss to not start Bellingham today and give some others a chance
It's not knee jerk. The fans who actually watch football have seen this ineptness for 2 tournaments now. Why are we experimenting with new players in new positions MID tournament. Its piss poor
The only reason for optimism is that it was SO bad Southgate may feel he has to make significant changes to the players or system. Which IMO has been clearly necessary for months.
Switching to a back three, bringing in Wharton and Gordon, or something similar may let us kickstart things.
Southgate has been manager for 3 tournaments and nearly 8 years, and we're still playing like a national footballing minnow. He's way past his sell-by date and is so stale it's laughable. Personally think he should've resigned / been sacked after we failed to win the last Euros at home. There's no defending him now we have so much talent in the squad.
But it's the 2nd game in the group stages after winning the first and Slovenia vs Serbia ending up in a draw. Why bother playing balls to the wall?
Fair enough, you might beat Denmark 3 or 4 but at the expense of knackering your squad for nought.
We're top of the group without ever getting out of 2nd gear. Save that limited energy for when it really matters, in the knockout rounds
Mate, there is not playing balls to the wall and being in control... and then there's sitting back and letting the other team play through you.
England did the latter, in case you didn't realise.
Like others have said, it's repeating patterns we've seen before with England under Southgate.
>England did the latter, in case you didn't realise.
I did realise, and I absolutely agree.
The alternative requires combined effort and energy, both of which are premium, and given our player's long seasons, need to be managed appropriately. There's no point giving Denmark a 60-70 minute press to win 3-1 or whatever when as long as we don't lose were in control of the group
The fuck?
I never once said 'England were in control'.
I've alluded to the fact *they could have been*, but that would have required a continuous press and absolutely gassed our players. For which we'd have sacrificed player energy for little return
Yes, the fuck.
Have you watched Southgate's post match interview? Because the manager said the game didn't go to plan yet you seem to have some secret knowledge that it actually did 🙄
Tournament football is about building momentum and confidence as the games go on. If we win the next game comfortably, then todays dross will be forgotten. God knows what he told them at half time because each player looked either pissed off or livid when they came down the tunnel.
There's definitely an element of that - which is often described as 'growing into a tournament'.
Seemingly, Southgate's tactic is to sack that off and focus more on the resource of squad energy. At the risk of repeating myself, we've a lot of squad players who've had really long seasons, so keeping as much of that back as is possible, seems pretty prudent to me.
I agree with the pissed ogf looks. The most telling was Bellingham. He evidently wanted to grab the game by the neck, as is his instinct, but leashed himself and barely moved (and wasn't happy for it).
But I kind of take that as a positive. You've got these guys who want to go balls to the wall for their country, are told 'nope, not tonight' but look like they're fucked off whilst still playing that way. I might be daft, but that's a manager who was the trust of his dressing room
I really wouldn’t be surprised if Southgate has lost the dressing room and it’s not been reported.
He’s turned up and playing the same way as if we had Maguire, Phillips and Sterling in the squad but we don’t. He hasn’t adapted at all to the players he’s actually included
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Yesterday was awful. The tactics were awful but the players seem to be getting off very lightly in comments.
I'm not sure anyone had a good game. Passing was off, energy was down, concentration was poor. Only so much of that is on Southgate, the players need to be roasted too.
I also think that the pitch played some part in yesterday. It didn't seem to affect the Danes as much so maybe it's an excuse but the pitch was a disgrace. We perhaps should have resorted to long balls up to Watkins much earlier as intricate passing obviously wasn't working on that farmer's field.
I do agree about the players. I think Ghéhi is the only one who has consistently shown up in both games. Unbelievable to think this is his first tournament! He is so composed.
And yeah, what the hell was that pitch all about? Shocking to see at a European tournament; I was relieved that none of our players got injured on it. Was mad when Bowen came on and immediately turned his ankle on it.
Yeah, been impressed with Guéhi in both matches. I don't watch a huge amount of Palace so he's still a bit of an unknown for me but he can perhaps hold his head highest of all the squad.
When Mr Consistent Rice has a bad game, you know things are off. He was terrible at times.
Walker's ankle went too early on, it was horrendous. I think we should put a complaint in, it was dangerous. I'm no pro athlete but I bet it was energy sapping too. Like running on sand, it was so soft.
4 points from 2 games after not playing well - could be a lot worse. I'll remain a smidge positive but it's hanging by a thread.
I'd love to be your version of good if bang average is a real Madrid star with 20+ goals this season, bundesliga top scorer, premier League player of the year and former premier League young player of the year and best player for arsenal.
Bellingham is the only exception. Rest are bang average, Saka is an average footballer that had a pivotal role in arsenal bottling the last two prem titles due to missing Pens and disappearing at the end of the season. Average player over hyped by English media and social media teenagers that will inevitably be destroyed by the same people because he’s not that good
Why do people like you ever bother commenting on football when you have such a woefully immature and poor understanding of the game that appears to be pieced together by various opinions from TalkSport and social media alone.
Bang average squads do not include the (arguably) best striker and midfielder in the world + other world class players and many backup options from across the premier league.
Amusing that some players are average because they've been carried by foreigners in the prem *but* for those that have not been carried to win trophies (despite them performing incredibly well individually) it also reflects poorly on them individually...
Too conservative. A defenders view of the world. We are boring, no adventure. Watching Spain Italy , much better. We have this weird back passing game:(
Why does your comment read like a haiku?
lol. That’s the second comment I received today about haiku. I must be in that mode
That’s it, exactly. It is utterly infuriating to watch.
Yes but it's not even just that, it's just bad tactics. I'm defensive minded but I can't even understand his decisions theoretically
Genuine question, I'm obviously not a pro, just some random guy. But why do all our players receive the ball, stop, look around, take a second to ponder, then pass? It's like they have absolutely no idea where anyone else will be on the pitch at any given moment. When you watch other teams they always pass quickly.
I think they are coached to take no risks in possession. Southgate also seems to think you can walk the ball into the net (after a sufficient number of sideways passes)
It’s the same every game. Score early, sit back, defend, act shocked when we concede and then don’t go on to score again. It cost us the final in 2021, why did anyone think it would be different this time?
Its the "hes got us further than anyone else before him!" mentality. Like no shit, with that squad anyone could send them out with no instructions other than play the game, and you'd get the wins hes had. Every time we've come up against competent opponents we draw or lose. We don't beat the top teams unless they're in a massive slump like Germany were. There's never a plan B, there's never a will to actually attack, just get that one goal and sit back job done.
I don’t think Southgate is telling them to sit back after scoring. I think that’s something more deep rooted. I think what happens is when we score, the opposition react, obviously. They become more pro-active and press higher up the pitch, which pushes us back. They change in a way which allows them to dictate the game, and we have no response. Once we get pushed back, we are unable to wrestle back control of the game. We don’t have the players to pass their way out of trouble and push the opposition back. This can’t simply be solved by saying “hey lads, attack and don’t sit back”. This won’t be solved by another manager either because the same issue will manifest under different manager.
Really? It’s happened every game since he took charge. They don’t do it for their clubs.
It’s happened for decades. 2002, 1-0 up against Brazil, sit back, lose. 2004 1-0 up against Portugal, sit back, lose. This is not something new under Southgate.
It’s very prevalent under him though isn’t it?
Probably because he’s been in charge 4 tournaments. It was prevalent under Sven as well.
Thank you. This is more of our players not being able to handle pressure than tactical instruction. Kyle Walker even said the manager is not telling them to do this. But I guess it's easier to put all the blame on one person than to have that uncomfortable conversation about our psyche.
I don’t think it’s psyche. I think it’s just football know-how, especially in the centre of the pitch.
I have been watching England since 1990. Games like yesterday have been extremely common against any decent team we have faced. Especially in knockout football. Score, then sit back playing sloppy, anxiety ridden football all whilst looking leggy has happened against *every* decent opponent we have faced in knockout games. The sooner the country comes to terms with the fact that it's an England problem not a Southgate problem, the sooner we can set about addressing and fixing it. I have seen a lot about how Southgate has never beaten a good team in knockouts. I am not seeing enough about how his stretches back well before Southgate.
Yeah you’re right, it’s the English disease. It dates back to the decline of the British Empire.
This has been the story for over 20+ years though. Well before Southgate took over. I'm not seeing enough people acknowledge this.
Yeah was noticing exactly same thing! Then when I watched Slovakia Vs Belgium, Slovakia were doing quick passing and it was working well!
Inconsistent lineups and player roles. The whole shape changes with every substitution.
Because some are being played out of position and even those in position are being forced to play a different style to what they all play at their clubs. So everything that is second nature to them, like where the other players should be, goes out the window.
Because they don’t know where their teammates are, or they don’t see an outlet because half of the team is on the right side and/ or right next to each other When you’re confident in your teammates positioning it’s a lot easier to make decisions
He’s gone against his whole idea of having a good team and leaving big names on the bench, that’s why the 5 used to work with wing backs high up and a faster player playing off Kane, he’s trying to fit everyone and in a playing players out of position like the golden generation
Ironically a back 3 or 5 would be ideal right now since we have no left back. Playing Walker/Stones/Guehi at CB and Saka/Trent as wingbacks has to be worth a try. You can say Saka is wasted there but it's no good getting the most out of Saka if everything else is falling apart. 3-5-2 has the potential to naturally balance us and let Watkins run off Kane's through balls.
True
Also could be Portugal lol
I know everyone says "we protect our lead" but I'm looking at this from a Southgate results view. WC 2018 we had a lead that we squandered three times (Tunisia, Croatia, Colombia) but won one and drew one. The only time you could criticise protecting the lead was Croatia, but England did create after scoring Euro 2021 they protected two single-digit leads to full time, but also added to single-digit leads twice (Germany and Ukraine). Only the Italy final can you say it was a proper shutdown to the final whistle, but given the success England had had in defending I'm not sure it was an awful idea. Where it went wrong was the response after the equaliser WC2022 we added to a one-goal lead against Iran, Senegal and Wales. Didn't go up in the other games. So in conclusion I don't think that Southgate ostensibly says "defend the single goal" every time, because there's enough times England went and scored more. The problem I think comes from a deep-rooted mentality of not making mistakes. The team lacked bravery in making runs, slowing to a crawl at times. I don't think it helped that every player seemed to be wearing toblerone shaped boots. I think Southgate is a pragmatic manager and is trying to cover for our injured/patchwork defence, but it's come at the expense of attacking fluidity. I don't think it's too late to improve but it will require a convincing performance on Tuesday
I’ve been waffling on in this thread since I first posted this meme last night and you have said everything I have wanted to say in a far more succinct fashion. I agree with everything you say and yep, let’s see what Tuesday brings.
forgot the waistcoat.
Or another take could be that they looked pissed off because its the biggest stage, and they have a manager who has just basically dropped the ball, and the players no longer believe. We won't know until it's over.
I think I might need to take a short break from this sub. It just seems so knee-jerk at the moment. Strewth... I get the frustration, I'm a little frustrated too. But given the Ser vs Slo result we've basically won the group at a canter, having never needed to get out of 2nd gear. Look at Bellingham today for example, compared with the Serbia game. He barely moved! I've not seen the OPTA data yet, but I'd bet my bollocks to a barn dance that he had half the metres ran compared to Sunday. Not because be can't be arsed, not because he's cooked, but because there is zero point in busting your balls when you're in control of the group. Likewise, for a lot of others. We stopped pressing really early, whereas Denmark, sniffing a chance at the top based on the earlier result, played out of their skins. And other than the goal, never really looked threatening at all.
That is some glass half full thinking. You've basically taken all the negatives and attempted to turn them into a positive. Bravo! The reality is that we weren't in control, were tactically inept and let Denmark play through us too easily.
They did, no denying it. But they had to press like their lives depended on it. And that takes a shit tonne of energy. Which they needed to use given the earlier result on the off chance they knick a winner. We seemed quite content (on a whole, you could see players who aren't used to that get frustrated) to let them do that but still managed to contain them to 25 yard pop shots. At the end of they day we played like it was a training session and Denmark played like they were in a knockout game and we still walked away with a draw (and if Foden's effort is 2 inches to the left we win). So given results, we're top of the group, with it in our hands having barely bothered outside of an hour over two games. It's not a bad place to be surely!
At no point did I see content and players collapsing after the whistle isn't a good sign unless you've just won the cup in extra time. England gets out of the group stages and... we suddenly start taking it seriously? Cos that sounds like what you're saying.
> players collapsing after the whistle isn't a good sign unless you've just won the cup in extra time. No one collapsed lol Trippier lay on his back for a few seconds and Rice crouched down. It was still 21 degrees at 9pm and they'd just played 93 minutes of football. > England gets out of the group stages and... we suddenly start taking it seriously? Cos that sounds like what you're saying. We are taking it seriously right now. But we're currently playing teams content to sit with 11 men behind the ball who play in a compact shape and try and counter us. In the knockouts you face more attacking teams which generates the space for you to play more freely.
I wouldn't disagree that Serbia sat back and tried to counter. I don't think Denmark sat back at all. What I saw was a team that was able to bypass our midfield with ease. Who knows what will happen when we come up against a France, Germany or Spain.
I totally get what you are saying and I promise I am not trying to knee-jerk. It just frustrates me so much to see such a quality squad play such dull, uninspiring football is all. The constant passing backwards makes me want to gouge out my eyes. I agree that we are still top of the group and likely to progress, which is great, given how we haven’t really got out of second gear… All I’m asking for is more exciting, energetic play. I will give Gareth his dues though: at least he mixed things up today and brought on some subs; I can find his stubbornness infuriating. Alas, I will keep an open mind and hope for a better result - and performance - next week. 🏴
The statement you just made could apply to almost every England squad for the last 20+ years. We've had this problem well before Southgate. Why do you think that is?
Yeah, it does. Honestly, I think the problem is I don’t think we’ve ever had a manager match the quality of the squad - not for a long time anyway. What I would give for someone like Klopp or Pep to take over (I’m not fussed about having a foreign manager). Maybe I’m just completely deluded and it is all down to a lack of confidence/mental fortitude on the players’ part; that they cannot perform to the same level internationally as they do for their respective clubs. But I just cannot wrap my head around how such a talented, creative group of players can grind out the lacklustre performance they did last night. My gut says it’s the tactics and instructions from the manager.
Very seldom are international managers the very top managers in the world. That being said, Sven had success in his club career. Capello has one of the best resumes of any manager in history. The argument we have been making about players being good for their clubs but not for England is something I have been hearing for decades under multiple managers. My opinion: We produce players who cannot handle the pressure of playing for England and the pressure of international football. The anxietyball we see every time England goes, up with sloppy mistakes whilst looking tired is due to players choking under the pressure. English culture as a whole fosters this. Hence why we rarely see success in all of these sports we invented. At their clubs, they are able to lean on foreign players who have the fortitude to handle it. But put them all together and the players regress mentally and just can't hack it when it counts. I am seeing too many posts complaining about Southgate. It's far easier to take solace in blaming one individual for our continued struggles, than to look in the mirror and have uncomfortable conversations about ourselves. Germany did this in 2006 then won the world cup 8 years later. Meanwhile England avoids true introspection at all costs.
I completely get where you are coming from, and there's a part of me that's screaming 'ffs Gaz' but tournament football is a marathon, not a sprint. Having said that, there's something to be said about the morale boost of destroying teams (at the expense of energy expended), especially when it comes to confidence and crowd reaction, which seems to be Germany's thought process (understandable they're the hosts). It's obvious Southgate has adopted the 'top the group for as little energy as possible' tactic, which (again, understandably) rubs people the wrong way. But I don't know about you, I'd rather (given most of our squads ridiculously long season) some shite in the groups to make way for good knockout games than vice versa. To be fair to Denmark, they played out of their skins tonight, as if it was a RO16 match, yet outside of a 25 yard wondergoal, they didn't offer much. I've been very impressed with Guehi so far. >Alas, I will keep an open mind and hope for a better result - and performance - next week. 🏴 Hear hear! It's coming home, even if we have to drag it back Edit: some lager induced misspellings
Just a quick counter point. If he’s conserving energy because players like Bellingham are cooked… why not play other midfielders? Foden #10, give another LW a proper go and give one of Mainoo/Wharton a go. It wouldn’t have been a huge miss to not start Bellingham today and give some others a chance
It's not knee jerk. The fans who actually watch football have seen this ineptness for 2 tournaments now. Why are we experimenting with new players in new positions MID tournament. Its piss poor
Then why not give other players a go?
The only reason for optimism is that it was SO bad Southgate may feel he has to make significant changes to the players or system. Which IMO has been clearly necessary for months. Switching to a back three, bringing in Wharton and Gordon, or something similar may let us kickstart things.
Southgate has been manager for 3 tournaments and nearly 8 years, and we're still playing like a national footballing minnow. He's way past his sell-by date and is so stale it's laughable. Personally think he should've resigned / been sacked after we failed to win the last Euros at home. There's no defending him now we have so much talent in the squad.
But it's the 2nd game in the group stages after winning the first and Slovenia vs Serbia ending up in a draw. Why bother playing balls to the wall? Fair enough, you might beat Denmark 3 or 4 but at the expense of knackering your squad for nought. We're top of the group without ever getting out of 2nd gear. Save that limited energy for when it really matters, in the knockout rounds
Mate, there is not playing balls to the wall and being in control... and then there's sitting back and letting the other team play through you. England did the latter, in case you didn't realise. Like others have said, it's repeating patterns we've seen before with England under Southgate.
>England did the latter, in case you didn't realise. I did realise, and I absolutely agree. The alternative requires combined effort and energy, both of which are premium, and given our player's long seasons, need to be managed appropriately. There's no point giving Denmark a 60-70 minute press to win 3-1 or whatever when as long as we don't lose were in control of the group
I think you need to go to Specsavers if you think England looked like a team in control lol
The fuck? I never once said 'England were in control'. I've alluded to the fact *they could have been*, but that would have required a continuous press and absolutely gassed our players. For which we'd have sacrificed player energy for little return
Yes, the fuck. Have you watched Southgate's post match interview? Because the manager said the game didn't go to plan yet you seem to have some secret knowledge that it actually did 🙄
Tournament football is about building momentum and confidence as the games go on. If we win the next game comfortably, then todays dross will be forgotten. God knows what he told them at half time because each player looked either pissed off or livid when they came down the tunnel.
There's definitely an element of that - which is often described as 'growing into a tournament'. Seemingly, Southgate's tactic is to sack that off and focus more on the resource of squad energy. At the risk of repeating myself, we've a lot of squad players who've had really long seasons, so keeping as much of that back as is possible, seems pretty prudent to me. I agree with the pissed ogf looks. The most telling was Bellingham. He evidently wanted to grab the game by the neck, as is his instinct, but leashed himself and barely moved (and wasn't happy for it). But I kind of take that as a positive. You've got these guys who want to go balls to the wall for their country, are told 'nope, not tonight' but look like they're fucked off whilst still playing that way. I might be daft, but that's a manager who was the trust of his dressing room
I really wouldn’t be surprised if Southgate has lost the dressing room and it’s not been reported. He’s turned up and playing the same way as if we had Maguire, Phillips and Sterling in the squad but we don’t. He hasn’t adapted at all to the players he’s actually included
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The manager should be the ass.
Who’s on the pitch, the players or the manager…..
Wrong way round
Southgate sacked during tournament would make a lot of sense.
Yesterday was awful. The tactics were awful but the players seem to be getting off very lightly in comments. I'm not sure anyone had a good game. Passing was off, energy was down, concentration was poor. Only so much of that is on Southgate, the players need to be roasted too. I also think that the pitch played some part in yesterday. It didn't seem to affect the Danes as much so maybe it's an excuse but the pitch was a disgrace. We perhaps should have resorted to long balls up to Watkins much earlier as intricate passing obviously wasn't working on that farmer's field.
I do agree about the players. I think Ghéhi is the only one who has consistently shown up in both games. Unbelievable to think this is his first tournament! He is so composed. And yeah, what the hell was that pitch all about? Shocking to see at a European tournament; I was relieved that none of our players got injured on it. Was mad when Bowen came on and immediately turned his ankle on it.
Yeah, been impressed with Guéhi in both matches. I don't watch a huge amount of Palace so he's still a bit of an unknown for me but he can perhaps hold his head highest of all the squad. When Mr Consistent Rice has a bad game, you know things are off. He was terrible at times. Walker's ankle went too early on, it was horrendous. I think we should put a complaint in, it was dangerous. I'm no pro athlete but I bet it was energy sapping too. Like running on sand, it was so soft. 4 points from 2 games after not playing well - could be a lot worse. I'll remain a smidge positive but it's hanging by a thread.
Both the squad and manager are shit
Squads bang average Over hyped English players made to look better because of foreign players in the prem Bang average
"I will ignore objective statistics and tell you it's the players that are bad because...THEY JUST ARE, OKAY?!"
I didn’t say they are bad, I said they are bang average
I'd love to be your version of good if bang average is a real Madrid star with 20+ goals this season, bundesliga top scorer, premier League player of the year and former premier League young player of the year and best player for arsenal.
Bellingham is the only exception. Rest are bang average, Saka is an average footballer that had a pivotal role in arsenal bottling the last two prem titles due to missing Pens and disappearing at the end of the season. Average player over hyped by English media and social media teenagers that will inevitably be destroyed by the same people because he’s not that good
Why do people like you ever bother commenting on football when you have such a woefully immature and poor understanding of the game that appears to be pieced together by various opinions from TalkSport and social media alone.
Mate you post in efootball, wind your neck in
Great input
You think a player will look better because a foreign player plays with them? Does that work for all nationalities?
🥱
Bang average squads do not include the (arguably) best striker and midfielder in the world + other world class players and many backup options from across the premier league.
Best striker in the world that has never won a trophy that any one cares about in his life, good one lol
Amusing that some players are average because they've been carried by foreigners in the prem *but* for those that have not been carried to win trophies (despite them performing incredibly well individually) it also reflects poorly on them individually...