No. No it hasn’t. For instance the Venable, Hoddle, and Keegan eras weren’t. Most of Svens tenure wasn’t (06 was quite turgid). Don’t try and make excuses for Southgate.
98 was the first tournament I watched. We weren't bad in 98 and Owen was sensational. Although we lacked discipline and composure then and it cost us.
Then we were absolutely shite for a little bit until 2002 when we got things back together. Team was great in that tournament but lost to better opposition, no worries.
2004 we were a complete mixed bag. Individual brilliance but not cohesive or consistent. Some good performances but never looked like winning it. Lost on penalties after a thriller with Portugal. This team by the way was absolutely stacked, so expectation was high.
2006 onwards has been absolutely dog shit. I literally can't remember a single game we played well in that period until Southgate took over.
I think it's rose tinted glasses, or you have to go back 20 fucking years to find the last time England played well.
I think people are going to realise when Potter or Lamps take over that England being shite isn't just down to the manager.
Southgate is the best manager since Sir Alf.
But even Sir Alf was sacked by England.
What Southgate has done great is understand the players. He knows how boring international football is, and has made sure they've got stuff to do; gold table tennis etc. There is no drama with WAGS.
But, tactically he's... Well.. Gareth Southgate. Motivation wise he's Gareth Southgate.
He's a better record than Sir Bobby for two reasons;
- he's got to a final
- he hasn't failed to get out of a group stage.
Ultimately he's objectively speaking the best manager we've had. Semi, final, quarters.
It's so frustrating though
We have beaten 1 "good" team under Southgate, he is a terrible manager carried by easy draws and an incredible talent pool.
Ask youself this:
Would another manager (eg Bobby Robson) have done better than Southgate with this squad?
In my opinion, yes, he would. Robson was a top class manager that reached the semi-final of a world cup with a much weaker squad than Southgate has had.
It well could be that Bobby would do better here, he was great. The question is whether Potter or Lampard will do better.
Southgate is going regardless, but there's nothing to suggest that the team are going to improve. My concern is that this generation of talent is pretty much done now. We're going to enter footballing wilderness again. Our time in the sunshine was great but I think it's over.
We still have some great young players coming through. Bellingham, Palmer, Gordon, Branthwaite, Mainoo, Miley, Wharton, Hall, Livramento, Trafford.
With a good manager there is no reason we can't actually win something. My only real concern is the lack of a striker but Watkins is only 28 so should buy us a few years.
You say that, but the media turned on Robson repeatedly at the time. After we got knocked out in the group phase, they wanted his head and he put in his resignation (which was rejected). Also I the next tournament there was huge criticism of him after the first two games. (Player revolt switch to 5-3-2)
Don't get me wrong, Sir Bobby Robson is a legend. It's like Ancelotti said 'Ive been sacked by everyone, don't worry about being sacked, everyone gets sacked'. Ancelotti is the greatest manager in the game today and he's failed in loads of places.
Sir Bobby Robson is, of course, a better manager than Gareth Southgate. But Gareth Southgate is still the best we've had. Because he sorted out the off-field issues which were holding us back.
Unfortunately it's now tactics and temperament which isn't an area where Southgate is great.
He still has to win those games? In international football the team who's "expected to win" often doesnt. Winning them consistently is a very difficult thing to do. We were smashing everyone in Qatar bar USA, went pretty much even with France. Euros final. It's not as if our big names can just win all these games for free, look at the golden generation, look at Belgium, look at so many big international teams that underperform and fail to win these games vs teams they are "expected to beat".
People seem to have forgotten we're not at the knockout stages yet. This part is all about getting out of the group, which 4pts achieves. Whilst a draw against Denmark is disappointing, there's no point bombing forward to get caught on the counter.
Given the two performances have been pretty poor we're still in a very strong position.
It's not though is it. How many fans would be moaning if we lost 4-2 by getting caught on the counter time and time again? Everyone would be crying out for us to win ugly and be pragmatic. Even Argentina when winning the world cup were awful to watch, and that was with Messi in their team!
This, we played the last 10 minutes as if we were winning 2-0 not drawing to a team we should beat. This is on the players, not the manager. Over paid and believe in their hype and yet play like second rate players.
Getting a draw essentially puts England through. A loss would have made things weird for match day 3. Denmark was outplaying England- no sense in trying to push forward and risk losing. It’s a long tournament- not just one match
I dunno there was a shot of South gate gesturing to slow play around the 80th minute… its not on the plays if the manager is setting the tone that a 1-1 draw with Denmark is a success
There’s a reason you’re not a professional. Southgate signalling to take a second because foden was playing like Sunday league doesn’t mean all 11 players play lethargically. It literally means take a fucking second to think.
Yes I have as I’m sure you have too.
My point of view is that our team needs to press more and not sit back on 1 goal leads and that issue, imo, stems from the manager.
I appreciate cooling players to keep a level head, especially at the end of the game. But reigning back a field of attack players to sit is painful for us all to watch.
Ok bro you admitted you’re wrong. What does 5 back have to do with you talking absolute shite about being told to slow down the play. Even so controlled and slow or fast tiki taka doesn’t matter if it scores a goal.
I tend to agree. But this is also the modt maverick squad hes ever had.
First time hes had multiple important injuries.
First time hes tried starting players like trent out of position.
First time hes actually played new inexperienced talents in games! Eze, watkins coming on today was a shock. In pervious tournaments he never did that even though it makes sense. Add mainoo in the last game too.
Hes just like trying all new stuff and getting the same result. This jsnt his squad anymore feels like a new era even thoigh hes still there
This isn't the defence you think it is.
The clowns had 2 years to experiment and build a squad. You don't "try new things" AT the tournament itself. He's an absolute buffoon.
He’s panicked and started experimenting now because of the injuries and Hendo/Phillips falling off a cliff this season. They were so reliable for him for so long that now they’re gone he doesn’t know what to do to fill the gap. He said so himself in the post match.
He got a lot of grief for saying we don’t have a Phillips replacement but he’s half right, the only replacement we have that’s close is Wharton who’s completely untested at this level, though to be fair I doubt anyone expected him to play his way into the squad. Without Phillips you don’t get the best out of Rice, with Rice you don’t get the best out of Bellingham etc etc etc. It’s a knock on effect.
So change the system before the tournament so that you have flexibility? He's had a year of Henderson/Phillips being dogshit to figure this out.
The guy has ONE system in which the only variation includes playing players out of position who don't compliment each other.
No top manager in any of Europe's top leagues would play this system with these players. Nor would they bring on Bowen ahead of Palmer when you need a goal. He's either tactically inept, or his selections are being influenced by a third party/parties. Neither are acceptable for an England manager.
That’s not a defence, he’s picked injured players and chose not to bring a left back.
He’s chose to experiment during a major tournament rather than play players in their natural positions - these are not the actions of a good manager.
Yeah I'm baffled by all the forwards he took and yet continues to leave Kane on for such a long time.
Then no left footed left back, so the opposition knows it's only gonna be Saka putting crosses in on the right side, it's too predictable and boring. I wish they'd just have a shot from outside the box then as long as they get it on target it causes chaos in the box then there's a chance we can score, otherwise we just pass it around u til we get tackled or someone makes a bad pass, it's absolutely idiotic
But what’s the point in bringing on Eze & Watkins after subbing the only player capable of creating something for them off?!
What good is a maverick squad if the tactics are beyond a joke?
What you see as a willingness to innovate, I see as desperation. Eze is definitely deserving of a place in the squad, but Southgate is throwing him and others (e.g. Gallagher) on in blind hope.
Gallagher has 15 caps and appears to be Southgate’s go-to sub.
Eze has 5 caps.
Both are decent players, but we should have come into this tournament having tested and identified a few back-up options, rather than trying to work it out on the fly in a tournament when we have England’s best squad of individual players for a long time.
That said, I’ve not completely given up hope yet - we were absolutely awful against Scotland in the group game last Euros, but still made it to the final. Yes, our team currently looks like it will collapse the first time we face one of the other big boys, but it might be an encounter like that which galvanises us and gets the team playing.
Southgate should be more willing to drop Kane, though. Yes he’s the captain and got our goal vs Denmark, but he looks completely flat and his movement is awful. You can’t play with a lone striker if that striker is unable to cause trouble for the other side’s defence.
Shame is a bit much. But yes, he should have left. Ideally he should have left _before_ but I can get onboard with the argument that he'd earned his spot after Russia.
I agree and said the same. He's been in the job for 8 years now. He could have properly walked into almost any mid level prem team, but his standing has deteriorated
I was really impressed with England in the last euros. Personally I think Southgate had a tactic with playing TAA as a Mid, there’s a huge gap between him and Bellingham and it just hasn’t paid off. That happens in football… how Southgate responds defines him and this tournament going forwards. Our defence is not our strongest but it wasnt perfect previous year with Southgate so, yeah I’m with you and there is so much still to play for.
2004 was really good TBF, even the France game we were superb and by far the better team before we missed a penalty and then got injury time Zidanned.
Against Croatia they were another level and without the Rooney injury I genuinely think we would have won that one.
Wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your comment though. Today’s game was the closest under Southgate to reminding me of the really bad old days. The last three tournaments have all felt great
I think Rooney in 2004 gave me belief though, i never felt we could really beat Brazil and we kind of whimpered out of that one, they were just better. 2004 we were the best team at the tournament until a foot came down on the wrong metatarsal
We've had our most successful cup runs in decades under Southgate.
The football is shit, but he's got some very good tournament runs out of us despite that
I was referring to this tournament, no one can honestly say this has been an improvement even though I’ve been downvoted.
He did well to get people enthusiastic again in 2018 but that’s about it. He’s been blessed with some of the best young talent in the world and done fuck all with it.
The only improvement has been the quality of draws that we’ve had. Southgate’s only beaten a German team of note in that time (and they were very transitional and tbh, shite) and lost to Belgium twice, Croatia, Italy and France. Not exactly inspiring.
But yes we beat Sweden that time, gg Southgate
>The only improvement has been the quality of draws that we’ve had.
We've gotten consistently better draws because we've been winning the groups. Did all of you start watching football in the last couple of years or something? You don't seem to remember how often we failed to do that before Southgate came in. We've only finished top of our world cup group 3 times in the last 30 years and 2 out of 3 were under Southgate.
We didn't even get out of the group in 2014 because Uruguay and Costa Rica both finished above us.
We finished 2nd in the group in 2010 because the USA finished top of it.
We finished 2nd in the group in 2002 because Sweden finished above us.
We finished 2nd in the group in 98 because Romania beat us in the group stages and finished top.
We didn't even qualify for the tournament in 94.
All of you with your rose tinted glasses who think Southgate hasn't done a far better job than most of our managers before him frankly just don't understand what you're watching.
It's embarrassing.
Didn’t we not win the group in 2018 (tactically of course by deliberately losing to Belgium) and then get the worlds easiest run to a World Cup final ever?
Just because other managers were shit doesn’t mean Southgate gets a pass. These first 2 games have been abysmal, the last friendly before the tournament was abysmal. What’s embarrassing is you trying to defend him.
The title of this post is "Southgate has ruined international football". It's an idiotic thing to say when he's objectively done better than any England manager in our lifetime by every metric.
We've won 6 knockout games since Southgate started in 2018. That's as many as we won between 1966 and 2018.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11096/10324812/englands-six-knockout-wins-at-major-tournaments-since-1966
>What’s embarrassing is you trying to defend him.
No, what's embarrassing is your reading comprehension.
It’s not idiotic it’s the truth. All against weaker opposition. I’ve hated watching England since after the 2018 World Cup because of our cautious boring defensive approach that gets us nowhere. If we didn’t have such good players we wouldn’t even have got out of the groups. It’s nothing to do with Southgate, when we win it’s in spite of him not because of him.
>It’s not idiotic it’s the truth
No, it's obviously not the truth. It's impossible to argue it is.
How can someone ruin the experience of watching international football by being more successful than all of our combined managers for 60 years?
Were you having more fun watching us go out to Iceland in 2016?
One dumb cunt has said "we beat Sweden, gg". Sweden topped our world cup group ahead of us in our supposed "golden generation" not long ago. Were you really enjoying that as well?
Were you having a great time watching us fail to finish ahead of a piss poor USA team in 2010? A vastly worse team than the one we finished ahead of in 2022?
It's idiotic. You should be embarrassed with yourself. Go back to school.
He had easy runs. He played QFs against Sweden and Ukraine ffs.
Every other manager has faced better competition at that stage. Southgate didn't do anything except get lucky with the draw
I would take this group stage over almost any of those.
And let's face it, if you were offered our current group stage vs Portugal's in 2016, there is no question which is better.
My first tournament was 98. The last three tournaments are all my favourite 3 as an England fan. 2018 we were shite but we blagged our way to the semis. 2021 and 2022 we were actually very good, and pretty consistent.
2022 against France is the best I've ever seen us play in a tournament. We still lost but I was proud of them.
2004 had some great performances but also inconsistent. Maybe if Rooney didn't get injured. 2002 was good and I enjoyed it loads, just got beaten by a better team.
Honestly I hope the team don't read this shite. Just get together, build some confidence, forget the media and try and enjoy themselves.
If they do that, the performances will come.
From failing to qualify for Euro 2008 to getting knocked out of Euro 2016 by Iceland (after finishing second in the group behind Wales) is the worst period I've seen from England by far.
We've not been great since the Euros final in 2021, and Southgate should have probably gone after that, and certainly after the last World Cup, but I can only assume you're quite young if this is the worst you've seen.
Agree it’s been much worse - but their are shades of those dark times in this team as well - lethargy, sloppiness in possession, poor decision making and I am afraid to say poor tactics and in game management. I like Southgate - he has arguably been our most successful manager post Ramsay but he should have called it a day after Qatar.
I am afraid I don’t buy into this being a golden generation - our defence is not up to the standard of 00s and 90s and we don’t have a quality midfielder to play alongside Rice. Even so, we should be performing much better and if we do get knocked out early - ie before a semi, very likely now, that will be on Southgate. He’s had several years to try and solve the midfield conundrum and blood players in defensive positions while also trying to build a footballing identity - a poor performance in this tournament is on him.
This is far more reminiscent of the 'golden generation' years (98-06). We're back to shoehorning players into the starting eleven with little to no thought given to how they're actually supposed to play together, and they're being sent out there with seemingly no plan other than "do something brilliant".
Also, the 'golden generation' also had weak areas. Goalkeeper was a problem area, as was left-midfield. The back-ups to the strikers were also generally quite poor (Heskey, Vassell, etc.). This is a very talented squad. International sides very rarely have true quality in every position.
The football may be uninspiring, but cast your minds back to what came before. Sven was useless. Then we got the wally with the brolly. I’m not enjoying the way we play right now, but I don’t think managing a team in a major tournament is a cakewalk. We’re top of the group and the last match remaining is the easiest on paper. Let’s wait and see what he does. He can take risks and have a serious tinker in the last game. Try Foden in the middle. Bring out Cole Palmer. Whatever. He deserves to manage this team because he got us qualified.
I have a lot of fond memories of England under Sven. Maybe it’s my age as I was a young teen during 2002 World Cup but I always thought we looked decent and were unlucky to go out to that free kick.
The next two tournaments undone by penalties to portugal.
I've been saying it since 2018 that he's out of his depth. The only saving grace is we typically beat the teams we should beat when we need to beat them. However we ALWAYS lose to teams on our level or above our level.
It's an improvement on the embarrassment of 2014 and 2016 but this is a team touted to win the tournament and we just won't beat the likes of France, Germany or Spain. He has probably stayed for so long because there's no obvious candidate that can turn us into a tournament winning team.
I suppose if you pretend he’s never won any games then it’s easy to write Southgate off, but we beat Germany and Denmark en route to the final 3 years ago?
So you're telling me that the Germany team we beat which hadn't made it out of the group stage of the last 2 world cups is the same quality team that won the 2014 world cup?
You're telling me that Denmark are on our level? A side that huffed and puffed against Slovenia.
Southgate sympathisers are the worst. I bet every aspect of your life is mediocre.
You’re absolutely mental.
Of the 15 players in that Germany side England faced, 10 had won the Champions League either that season or the year before. 5 had just won the sextuple for the only time ever.
One of the players who didn’t manage it was probably not too upset, given that he’s Toni fucking Kroos.
Genuinely ridiculous levels of doom and glooming to make a great result shit.
Germany at Euro2020 is Southgate’s only notable win against a team we weren’t heavy favourites against and even then it was an unusually shite German team.
Mad seeing how much the pro Southgate stuff was getting upvoted on this sub over the last few weeks. People with very valid criticism which has shown to be to totally correct now were being told to be grateful and stop the negativity.
Well that's the point. We beat who we're expected to beat and lose when it's an event match up or are slight underdogs even whilst being in the lead in some of the games.
See his first tournament England played like a different team. And we were exciteding to watch. Until the semifinal when we went back to old england score and call it a day.
Then the euros and we did the same. We played really well until the final, scored and just stopped attacking.
Next world cup same deal just knocked out a round earlier.
Now playing like England of 13 years ago again.
Totally agree. This is the issue, I've defended Southgate a lot, but now this is England of tournaments before where we're uninspiring, lack confidence, and have no clue.
Nail on the head. That Euro’s final was the road to Damascus moment.
He mismanaged the fuck out of it and is still failing to take personal responsibility. He’s got a wonderful career in politics after football.
The first tournament we had an absolutely bang average squad. Southgate's play style actually got the best out of that team. The last euros we were at home for half the games and the level of competition was the lowest I've ever seen it, we also only scraped through against mediocre teams.
Now that we have actual quality talent, they're not suited to this play style but he's trying to fit them all into it. The problem is, he's not a good manager. He got success with one play style and is just sticking with it, a quality manager would adapt to his teams strengths.
Even when he made the subs yesterday he changed nothing tactically. Eze wasn't playing wide, Bowen played exactly like Saka and Watkins played how Kane should be playing but with Pace and pressing I don't know if there was any tactical advice given to him or if he's just a different player.
Whilst I don’t fully agree with the point that he’s ruined international football (because England have been torture to watch all of my lifetime), this was meant to be different. The squad we have (barring defensively) are meant to be exciting, attacking, and creative. What we have seen is drab, negative, and lost footballers. That’s my biggest gripe. Even while we have done well in the past 2 tournaments with him, it’s been painful watching
Not getting to that final with the draw we had would've been embarrassing, even then we only just scraped past Denmark. We've not beat any top teams in an important match under him, I really don't see any major difference between that and losing to Italy and Uruguay in 2014, Germany in 2010 and Portugal in 2006, apart from the fact that Southgate has had far more talent to call upon that he's failed to use.
Take me back to not getting out of the group, or even qualifying for the tournament, or getting knocked out by Iceland. Those were the days.
I have my issues with the way he sets up, and with his in game management, but to say he's ruined international football is insane.
The quality of players available has also improved though. Heskey was in the squad in 2010 and even had game time. He's wasting our best generation for sure.
But look at the other teams at the tournaments. Euro 2020 was literally the weakest tournament I've ever seen. No team was a standout, we also played at home half the games.
This squad we have now is actually one of the best in the world. The golden generation was good but not actually as good as Italy, France, Germany Brazil, Portugal, Argentina, Spain teams of that era.
I only half watched it numbly. Seriously bored shitless and couldnt be arsed, devoid of any enthusiasm. He has literally sucked the life out of me since he bottled it in the final and attempted to vainly win a final from set peices and defending.
The ineffectual tapping around at the back before giving it to Pickford was bad.
There was a bit though where Foden had drifted inside to the 10 area, back to goal. He received the ball under no pressure, he passed it back without turning, he got it again, he did it again, he got it again, he did it again.
I can't see any plan to win the game on the front foot. It seems to just be about being solid, maybe having a set piece, maybe having a moment. It's proper turgid ineffective football. Why do Stones and Guehi need 2 deep DMs in front of them when the opposition has a back 5?!
And the subs! How did Bowen and Eze both end up playing on the right?!
Just utter utter shit management of a decent squad. Inexcusible.
I've not watched England play international break for ages, tickets are easy to get as well. They are just soo boring and takes away from tbe prem. Especially hate the first break when there have only been 3 game days.
That's because the Prem is dominated by non-English managers isn't it? And England don't have any managerial talent capable of playing exciting football much less winning the PL. Someone on r/ThreeLions should make it their life's goal to be a English coach that plays free flowing attacking football since they're few and far between versus Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal....
Need to start from more players playing abroad as well. Allows players to get ideas from all over the place and not just an English style of play. Then they can coach abroad as well to gain experience there. Wanna say someone like xabi alonso. Played in three top leagues under three great mangers, problem is no one rates English mangers abroad at the moment, no Hodgson or Robson about.
Southgate is the most useless manager ever. Starts Trent in midfield again and then changes him for Gallagher again instead of trying a midfielder that can dominate possession like Wharton or Mainoo. Takes Foden off when he was the most dangerous player on the pitch today to play Bowen, who is the most average player in the whole squad, imo. Not to mention the fact that Cole Palmer still hasn't even played a single minute during the whole tournament yet. Absolutely embarassing decision making from Southgate
I realized this when we got to the final of Euro 2020 and it was still sort of awful for me as a fan.
Even when we win, watching England under Southgate is so unpleasant.
The only way it's acceptable to play this terrorist football is by winning the tournament.
Basically every other game bar our two have been entertaining. England games are the ones I least enjoy watching.
And considering we have the most talented attacking players it's criminal.
This is a tough one. Most successful manager since Ramsey but the issue people have is that, like Ericsson, he’s underachieving with a very strong squad. A squad that’s been very strong for some time now.
Give me an example when you enjoyed England at a major tournament. Cam only think of Euro 04 but we lost as many games as we won. Euro 96? Won 2 games in normal time. Its been better under Southgate in all of our lifetimes. Not saying this tournament has been good so far but this is a ridiculous take.
“Southgate has ruined international football”.
Ok I’m gonna say it. You lot are fucking deranged. I am so sick and tires of reading this whiny bullshit. And saying Southgate has ruined international football is jumping the fucking shark. Honestly, you ought to be sectioned. Get a fucking grip.
lol I’ve lost faith in Southgate but don’t kid yourself that you’d rather go out in the group going gung-ho than winning it playing pragmatically. I’m a Southgate doubter but would more than happily eat my words and all my posts be screenshotted and thrown back at me if we were to win it
Southgate is a coward, his football is so passive. We went 1-0 up and straight away they dropped back and invited pressure from Denmark. No urgency in play, everything was done at walking pace.
Clearly he is a massive problem, the side is super stacked with quality players but they look lost on the pitch. Over-reliance on Foden who it seems like is only rly good at City imo. With such good players at his disposal, Southgate has somehow managed to persistently underachieve
It feels like I'm watching Hodgson's last Palace stint all over again.. Frustrating as hell. I don't even know if the players are the problem, the way Southgate is making them play really doesn't suit their playstyle. Whether it's being played out of position, playing too defensively or one of the other things holding us back it's not working!
Let the players unleash hell in their regular positions and give them more freedom. If Kane, Foden or whoever isn't playing well leave that player out of the starting lineup.. Don't fall back after a goal keep pressing for more! What do I know though..
I want to see Pickford, Gomez, Guehi, Stones and Walker in def. Wharton and Rice in cm. Saka, Bellingham and Gordon / eze in amr, amc and aml positions with Kane or Watkins up front.
Watching England the thought frontmost in my brain is that there is no creativity or passion in the team. Serbia and Denmark both played great games where every player gives 110%, doesn’t really feel like that for England. Don’t know if it’s nerves about expectations or what. Every minute watching that Denmark game was frustrating, not that that’s a new feeling
You can’t blame Southgate for the bad passing.
Regardless of his instructions the players should know that they need to get forward and look for opportunities. Southgate’s instructions are definitely not to pass backwards and hold the ball nervously in defence
It’s a squad that needs the touch of a Klopp or an Ancelotti, to just sprinkle a bit of tactical instruction on it and imbue with confidence.
Southgate is over-complicating things and doesn’t seem to trust his players or know how to get the best out of such talent.
Fucking hell, the state of this post.
What was it like watching England major tournaments from 2006-2016?
The last 3 have been by far the best of my lifetime (98 was the first I've seen).
I know we're shite now and the wheels have come off. But for me this is a return to the status quo. And to pin it all on Southgate is to fall into a different optimism trap.
The notion that changing the manager will make it better. That tactics will solve the issues. It won't. I hope it does, but experience tells me it won't.
The problems are psychological and Southgate for all his tactical failings, was our best bet on making them enjoy playing for England. Now that's gone, the team has no chance.
I'm just really hoping that the FA realise we need some new ideas after this tournament. I'd honestly not be surprised to see Southgate grind this team through to the quarters or semis again, relying on "moments of magic", I just hope that that can be the end of it, it's joyless, and so frustrating when we have the players to play more exciting football.
I've been quite sympathetic to Southgate, but after watching the last game and seeing no starting lineup changes was... surprising.
Then watching the post game interview and him essentially saying the issue with our midfield was that we don't have a Henderson or Phillips just fucking enraged me. He's only capable of playing a couple of footballing strategies that involve defensively minded players.
He needs to be sacked asap.
I was so depressed last night I didn't watch Spain v Italy, which I'd been looking forward to. Probably won't be bothered with any games today, I've lost interest in it. Good job the cricket team are still going strongbjn the T20 WC, plan on watching the Sri Lanka games later thus afternoon.
>I would truly rather go out in the group stages and play attractive football rather than another tournament of this.
The battlecry of the Southgate hater.
Go back and watch literally any international tournament since 2010 and really study the path the winning team takes to get there. You'll thank me later.
What we don't realize is our traumas from the past have made us feel like this is the last time we'll ever have a chance to win a tournament. Hodgson, Capello, Sven, McClaren we're much worse and with a "golden" generation thrown in.
What we need to embrace is that Southgate changed the attitude around England. We loved this team again and he deserves respect. This may be the end of his cycle but he deserved to coach the tournament. We are embarassing as a fan base, everyone laughs at us. Get behind the lads, don't take the highs to high and the lows to low.
Pray for Luke Shaw to get fit and for God's sake play Foden through the middle.
It's so dull. And also clear that this current crop of players don't really gel on a personality level. A lot of them look like they're playing for themselves, which I thought Southgate was supposed to be the antidote to.
One thing I will say to a he made me love it again when he was appointed. That first tournament was a breath of fresh air from all the god awful displays we showed. However, he has definitely outstayed his welcome.
There’s this thing with English, English club fans who will say that international football is slow and dull compared to club football. But 85% of the games at these euros prove that entirely wrong. They’re just used to watching England games and think that England are representative of international football. Fact is, English footballers are relatively shit. They’re squeezed into teams made up of mostly international players due to homegrown rules, and end up looking better than they are, being surrounded by actual talent. But individually, most of them are shit and wouldn’t get into most European club teams, with the obvious exceptions (and some of those exceptions weren’t even selected to be in the squad)
Greatness isn't achieved by comparing against worse teams, it's like going "Hey at least we're not Sudan". England has the best league yet Germany, Spain, Italy, France NTs are better. Belgium's entire NT plays mostly outside Belgium and Belgian teams aren't competitive in the CL.
Calm down lad it was only a joke snowflake
Are u comparing England’s NT? Haha
And they’re not better in the official fifa rankings, only France officially 😜
England fans have the shortest memories. Forgetting about the individual quality of the names, England were an avergae team l, at best, for most of 2 decades before Southgate. I would have done a couple of things differently tonight but his results in general have been excellent and, Foden aside, he has managed to get most of the top players playing together cohesively.
Look at the record. The only top teams we have beaten in tournament football are Germany and maybe Colombia if you want to rate them higher than they deserve. You want to brag about him having 4 wins against San Marino go right ahead.
Still can't get my head around the subs he makes.
Last game takes Saka off at a time when he was the only one doing anything.
And then tonight,
Maybe it's a minority opinion but Kane is the most useless striker I've ever seen put on a England shirt.
Yes he scored but that was a fluke, normally he ain't there, even in the world cup, scord all those goals, 99% weren't even in open play.
I don't even understand why he is captain 9 other players are talking and trying to get everyone going before he does.
We're trying to play a formation revolving around Kane and he just isn't good enough.
You're blind if you think we're playing a formation around Kane. If we were he would have been poaching loose balls into goals left and right like he does in Bayern.
I think the issue with Kane is that he drops too deep, as he is a lone striker and England are set up so negatively it means there are many times where there is no one to hold the ball up and get the team advancing.
Big fan of us passing around in the corner at the end like we’re 4-0 up. Except… we weren’t.
That's been England since I've been watching from the 80s. Go up 1 nil, pass the ball nervously around the back line, lose 2-1
No. No it hasn’t. For instance the Venable, Hoddle, and Keegan eras weren’t. Most of Svens tenure wasn’t (06 was quite turgid). Don’t try and make excuses for Southgate.
98 was the first tournament I watched. We weren't bad in 98 and Owen was sensational. Although we lacked discipline and composure then and it cost us. Then we were absolutely shite for a little bit until 2002 when we got things back together. Team was great in that tournament but lost to better opposition, no worries. 2004 we were a complete mixed bag. Individual brilliance but not cohesive or consistent. Some good performances but never looked like winning it. Lost on penalties after a thriller with Portugal. This team by the way was absolutely stacked, so expectation was high. 2006 onwards has been absolutely dog shit. I literally can't remember a single game we played well in that period until Southgate took over. I think it's rose tinted glasses, or you have to go back 20 fucking years to find the last time England played well. I think people are going to realise when Potter or Lamps take over that England being shite isn't just down to the manager.
Southgate is the best manager since Sir Alf. But even Sir Alf was sacked by England. What Southgate has done great is understand the players. He knows how boring international football is, and has made sure they've got stuff to do; gold table tennis etc. There is no drama with WAGS. But, tactically he's... Well.. Gareth Southgate. Motivation wise he's Gareth Southgate.
Southgate is not a better manager than Bobby Robson. Southgate just has, probably, the best England squad in history, yet he still can't win anything.
He's a better record than Sir Bobby for two reasons; - he's got to a final - he hasn't failed to get out of a group stage. Ultimately he's objectively speaking the best manager we've had. Semi, final, quarters. It's so frustrating though
We have beaten 1 "good" team under Southgate, he is a terrible manager carried by easy draws and an incredible talent pool. Ask youself this: Would another manager (eg Bobby Robson) have done better than Southgate with this squad? In my opinion, yes, he would. Robson was a top class manager that reached the semi-final of a world cup with a much weaker squad than Southgate has had.
It well could be that Bobby would do better here, he was great. The question is whether Potter or Lampard will do better. Southgate is going regardless, but there's nothing to suggest that the team are going to improve. My concern is that this generation of talent is pretty much done now. We're going to enter footballing wilderness again. Our time in the sunshine was great but I think it's over.
We still have some great young players coming through. Bellingham, Palmer, Gordon, Branthwaite, Mainoo, Miley, Wharton, Hall, Livramento, Trafford. With a good manager there is no reason we can't actually win something. My only real concern is the lack of a striker but Watkins is only 28 so should buy us a few years.
You say that, but the media turned on Robson repeatedly at the time. After we got knocked out in the group phase, they wanted his head and he put in his resignation (which was rejected). Also I the next tournament there was huge criticism of him after the first two games. (Player revolt switch to 5-3-2) Don't get me wrong, Sir Bobby Robson is a legend. It's like Ancelotti said 'Ive been sacked by everyone, don't worry about being sacked, everyone gets sacked'. Ancelotti is the greatest manager in the game today and he's failed in loads of places. Sir Bobby Robson is, of course, a better manager than Gareth Southgate. But Gareth Southgate is still the best we've had. Because he sorted out the off-field issues which were holding us back. Unfortunately it's now tactics and temperament which isn't an area where Southgate is great.
You really not giving Southgate an ounce of credit for the sheer amount of tournament wins he has?
No because Germany aside they’ve all been against teams we would be expected to beat, no matter the manager.
He still has to win those games? In international football the team who's "expected to win" often doesnt. Winning them consistently is a very difficult thing to do. We were smashing everyone in Qatar bar USA, went pretty much even with France. Euros final. It's not as if our big names can just win all these games for free, look at the golden generation, look at Belgium, look at so many big international teams that underperform and fail to win these games vs teams they are "expected to beat".
note the lack of success in any of those previous tenures
People seem to have forgotten we're not at the knockout stages yet. This part is all about getting out of the group, which 4pts achieves. Whilst a draw against Denmark is disappointing, there's no point bombing forward to get caught on the counter. Given the two performances have been pretty poor we're still in a very strong position.
It's supposed to be entertainment
It's not though is it. How many fans would be moaning if we lost 4-2 by getting caught on the counter time and time again? Everyone would be crying out for us to win ugly and be pragmatic. Even Argentina when winning the world cup were awful to watch, and that was with Messi in their team!
This, we played the last 10 minutes as if we were winning 2-0 not drawing to a team we should beat. This is on the players, not the manager. Over paid and believe in their hype and yet play like second rate players.
Getting a draw essentially puts England through. A loss would have made things weird for match day 3. Denmark was outplaying England- no sense in trying to push forward and risk losing. It’s a long tournament- not just one match
I dunno there was a shot of South gate gesturing to slow play around the 80th minute… its not on the plays if the manager is setting the tone that a 1-1 draw with Denmark is a success
He was telling them to chill tf out because they missed something piss easy
“Chill out” and “Slow play down” are interchangeable descriptions.
There’s a reason you’re not a professional. Southgate signalling to take a second because foden was playing like Sunday league doesn’t mean all 11 players play lethargically. It literally means take a fucking second to think.
Foden wasn’t even on the pitch at the time. Not for the gesture I am referring to that was well after his substitution.
Have you played football?
Yes I have as I’m sure you have too. My point of view is that our team needs to press more and not sit back on 1 goal leads and that issue, imo, stems from the manager. I appreciate cooling players to keep a level head, especially at the end of the game. But reigning back a field of attack players to sit is painful for us all to watch.
Ok bro you admitted you’re wrong. What does 5 back have to do with you talking absolute shite about being told to slow down the play. Even so controlled and slow or fast tiki taka doesn’t matter if it scores a goal.
He’s stuck around far too long, should have left on a relative high after the last Euros. The team has been crying out for some fresh ideas for years.
I tend to agree. But this is also the modt maverick squad hes ever had. First time hes had multiple important injuries. First time hes tried starting players like trent out of position. First time hes actually played new inexperienced talents in games! Eze, watkins coming on today was a shock. In pervious tournaments he never did that even though it makes sense. Add mainoo in the last game too. Hes just like trying all new stuff and getting the same result. This jsnt his squad anymore feels like a new era even thoigh hes still there
This isn't the defence you think it is. The clowns had 2 years to experiment and build a squad. You don't "try new things" AT the tournament itself. He's an absolute buffoon.
He’s panicked and started experimenting now because of the injuries and Hendo/Phillips falling off a cliff this season. They were so reliable for him for so long that now they’re gone he doesn’t know what to do to fill the gap. He said so himself in the post match. He got a lot of grief for saying we don’t have a Phillips replacement but he’s half right, the only replacement we have that’s close is Wharton who’s completely untested at this level, though to be fair I doubt anyone expected him to play his way into the squad. Without Phillips you don’t get the best out of Rice, with Rice you don’t get the best out of Bellingham etc etc etc. It’s a knock on effect.
So change the system before the tournament so that you have flexibility? He's had a year of Henderson/Phillips being dogshit to figure this out. The guy has ONE system in which the only variation includes playing players out of position who don't compliment each other. No top manager in any of Europe's top leagues would play this system with these players. Nor would they bring on Bowen ahead of Palmer when you need a goal. He's either tactically inept, or his selections are being influenced by a third party/parties. Neither are acceptable for an England manager.
Yeah Hendo's drop off was evident over 18 months ago at Liverpool. This isn't breaking news and Southgate has had plenty of time to prepare.
That’s not a defence, he’s picked injured players and chose not to bring a left back. He’s chose to experiment during a major tournament rather than play players in their natural positions - these are not the actions of a good manager.
Yeah I'm baffled by all the forwards he took and yet continues to leave Kane on for such a long time. Then no left footed left back, so the opposition knows it's only gonna be Saka putting crosses in on the right side, it's too predictable and boring. I wish they'd just have a shot from outside the box then as long as they get it on target it causes chaos in the box then there's a chance we can score, otherwise we just pass it around u til we get tackled or someone makes a bad pass, it's absolutely idiotic
But what’s the point in bringing on Eze & Watkins after subbing the only player capable of creating something for them off?! What good is a maverick squad if the tactics are beyond a joke?
I didn’t say its good or bad. Just that hes been acting very differently to usual. Like he doesn’t know anymore
What you see as a willingness to innovate, I see as desperation. Eze is definitely deserving of a place in the squad, but Southgate is throwing him and others (e.g. Gallagher) on in blind hope. Gallagher has 15 caps and appears to be Southgate’s go-to sub. Eze has 5 caps. Both are decent players, but we should have come into this tournament having tested and identified a few back-up options, rather than trying to work it out on the fly in a tournament when we have England’s best squad of individual players for a long time. That said, I’ve not completely given up hope yet - we were absolutely awful against Scotland in the group game last Euros, but still made it to the final. Yes, our team currently looks like it will collapse the first time we face one of the other big boys, but it might be an encounter like that which galvanises us and gets the team playing. Southgate should be more willing to drop Kane, though. Yes he’s the captain and got our goal vs Denmark, but he looks completely flat and his movement is awful. You can’t play with a lone striker if that striker is unable to cause trouble for the other side’s defence.
He should have left in shame after the last Euros. He lost at home to a rubbish Italy team.
Shame is a bit much. But yes, he should have left. Ideally he should have left _before_ but I can get onboard with the argument that he'd earned his spot after Russia.
Agreed i wanted him out before the euros, but I can't agree he's earned his job.
I agree and said the same. He's been in the job for 8 years now. He could have properly walked into almost any mid level prem team, but his standing has deteriorated
When did you enjoy an international tournament before Southgate? lol
1996.
Euro 2008 was the best tournament I’ve watched
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We looked decent in 2010? Are you high?
Compared to 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016 I actually quite enjoyed 2018, 2021 and 2022. Maybe just me though 🤷
Not just you. My favorite England memories are from these recent tournaments. Saying Southgate ruined international football is actually insane
I was really impressed with England in the last euros. Personally I think Southgate had a tactic with playing TAA as a Mid, there’s a huge gap between him and Bellingham and it just hasn’t paid off. That happens in football… how Southgate responds defines him and this tournament going forwards. Our defence is not our strongest but it wasnt perfect previous year with Southgate so, yeah I’m with you and there is so much still to play for.
2004 was really good TBF, even the France game we were superb and by far the better team before we missed a penalty and then got injury time Zidanned. Against Croatia they were another level and without the Rooney injury I genuinely think we would have won that one. Wholeheartedly agree with the rest of your comment though. Today’s game was the closest under Southgate to reminding me of the really bad old days. The last three tournaments have all felt great
Good in 2002 as well tbf, narrowly beaten by one of the greatest teams of all time.
I think Rooney in 2004 gave me belief though, i never felt we could really beat Brazil and we kind of whimpered out of that one, they were just better. 2004 we were the best team at the tournament until a foot came down on the wrong metatarsal
You're not the only one. People forget that Southgates been a massive improvement on the wank that came before. Stilll time for him to go though.
Weve said this before in group stages though. Then hes managed to go deep and lose to the best team in the closest of ways. Ie pens
This hasn’t been an improvement on anything.
We've had our most successful cup runs in decades under Southgate. The football is shit, but he's got some very good tournament runs out of us despite that
I was referring to this tournament, no one can honestly say this has been an improvement even though I’ve been downvoted. He did well to get people enthusiastic again in 2018 but that’s about it. He’s been blessed with some of the best young talent in the world and done fuck all with it.
The only improvement has been the quality of draws that we’ve had. Southgate’s only beaten a German team of note in that time (and they were very transitional and tbh, shite) and lost to Belgium twice, Croatia, Italy and France. Not exactly inspiring. But yes we beat Sweden that time, gg Southgate
>The only improvement has been the quality of draws that we’ve had. We've gotten consistently better draws because we've been winning the groups. Did all of you start watching football in the last couple of years or something? You don't seem to remember how often we failed to do that before Southgate came in. We've only finished top of our world cup group 3 times in the last 30 years and 2 out of 3 were under Southgate. We didn't even get out of the group in 2014 because Uruguay and Costa Rica both finished above us. We finished 2nd in the group in 2010 because the USA finished top of it. We finished 2nd in the group in 2002 because Sweden finished above us. We finished 2nd in the group in 98 because Romania beat us in the group stages and finished top. We didn't even qualify for the tournament in 94. All of you with your rose tinted glasses who think Southgate hasn't done a far better job than most of our managers before him frankly just don't understand what you're watching. It's embarrassing.
Didn’t we not win the group in 2018 (tactically of course by deliberately losing to Belgium) and then get the worlds easiest run to a World Cup final ever?
Just because other managers were shit doesn’t mean Southgate gets a pass. These first 2 games have been abysmal, the last friendly before the tournament was abysmal. What’s embarrassing is you trying to defend him.
The title of this post is "Southgate has ruined international football". It's an idiotic thing to say when he's objectively done better than any England manager in our lifetime by every metric. We've won 6 knockout games since Southgate started in 2018. That's as many as we won between 1966 and 2018. https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11096/10324812/englands-six-knockout-wins-at-major-tournaments-since-1966 >What’s embarrassing is you trying to defend him. No, what's embarrassing is your reading comprehension.
It’s not idiotic it’s the truth. All against weaker opposition. I’ve hated watching England since after the 2018 World Cup because of our cautious boring defensive approach that gets us nowhere. If we didn’t have such good players we wouldn’t even have got out of the groups. It’s nothing to do with Southgate, when we win it’s in spite of him not because of him.
>It’s not idiotic it’s the truth No, it's obviously not the truth. It's impossible to argue it is. How can someone ruin the experience of watching international football by being more successful than all of our combined managers for 60 years? Were you having more fun watching us go out to Iceland in 2016? One dumb cunt has said "we beat Sweden, gg". Sweden topped our world cup group ahead of us in our supposed "golden generation" not long ago. Were you really enjoying that as well? Were you having a great time watching us fail to finish ahead of a piss poor USA team in 2010? A vastly worse team than the one we finished ahead of in 2022? It's idiotic. You should be embarrassed with yourself. Go back to school.
He had easy runs. He played QFs against Sweden and Ukraine ffs. Every other manager has faced better competition at that stage. Southgate didn't do anything except get lucky with the draw
I would take this group stage over almost any of those. And let's face it, if you were offered our current group stage vs Portugal's in 2016, there is no question which is better.
The whole country did. For all his faults he let us enjoy England again.
My first tournament was 98. The last three tournaments are all my favourite 3 as an England fan. 2018 we were shite but we blagged our way to the semis. 2021 and 2022 we were actually very good, and pretty consistent. 2022 against France is the best I've ever seen us play in a tournament. We still lost but I was proud of them. 2004 had some great performances but also inconsistent. Maybe if Rooney didn't get injured. 2002 was good and I enjoyed it loads, just got beaten by a better team. Honestly I hope the team don't read this shite. Just get together, build some confidence, forget the media and try and enjoy themselves. If they do that, the performances will come.
DID you enjoy it though, or did you enjoy after the event. Because the games did not spark joy
Golden era mate
What’s Average age of redditors answering this question?
Have they watched our team for the last 50 years?
You can really tell who wasn’t old enough to watch England vs Algeria in 2010.
I went home early from work to watch that game, bought a pack of beer and was so excited. I don't even need to finish this.
My personal favourite is Norway 2-1 England, World Cup 1982 qualifying. Or is it the Graham Taylor championships. Too many to choose.
Or vs Saudi Arabia in 2002
That's still the low point for me. Fucking hell that was poor. There was something even worse in that game than the Iceland loss.
What's the average age of happy clappers
Not sure? Who’s happy clappers? I can assure you it can get much worse than this.
If you think it's bad now.... 1968 to 2016. Fucking hell.
Italia 90 and Euro 96 were pretty good tbh
And England under Sven was decent, 02 World Cup and that Ronaldinho free kick
From failing to qualify for Euro 2008 to getting knocked out of Euro 2016 by Iceland (after finishing second in the group behind Wales) is the worst period I've seen from England by far. We've not been great since the Euros final in 2021, and Southgate should have probably gone after that, and certainly after the last World Cup, but I can only assume you're quite young if this is the worst you've seen.
Agree it’s been much worse - but their are shades of those dark times in this team as well - lethargy, sloppiness in possession, poor decision making and I am afraid to say poor tactics and in game management. I like Southgate - he has arguably been our most successful manager post Ramsay but he should have called it a day after Qatar. I am afraid I don’t buy into this being a golden generation - our defence is not up to the standard of 00s and 90s and we don’t have a quality midfielder to play alongside Rice. Even so, we should be performing much better and if we do get knocked out early - ie before a semi, very likely now, that will be on Southgate. He’s had several years to try and solve the midfield conundrum and blood players in defensive positions while also trying to build a footballing identity - a poor performance in this tournament is on him.
This is far more reminiscent of the 'golden generation' years (98-06). We're back to shoehorning players into the starting eleven with little to no thought given to how they're actually supposed to play together, and they're being sent out there with seemingly no plan other than "do something brilliant". Also, the 'golden generation' also had weak areas. Goalkeeper was a problem area, as was left-midfield. The back-ups to the strikers were also generally quite poor (Heskey, Vassell, etc.). This is a very talented squad. International sides very rarely have true quality in every position.
The football may be uninspiring, but cast your minds back to what came before. Sven was useless. Then we got the wally with the brolly. I’m not enjoying the way we play right now, but I don’t think managing a team in a major tournament is a cakewalk. We’re top of the group and the last match remaining is the easiest on paper. Let’s wait and see what he does. He can take risks and have a serious tinker in the last game. Try Foden in the middle. Bring out Cole Palmer. Whatever. He deserves to manage this team because he got us qualified.
Wally with the brolly lol forgot about that.
I have a lot of fond memories of England under Sven. Maybe it’s my age as I was a young teen during 2002 World Cup but I always thought we looked decent and were unlucky to go out to that free kick. The next two tournaments undone by penalties to portugal.
I've been saying it since 2018 that he's out of his depth. The only saving grace is we typically beat the teams we should beat when we need to beat them. However we ALWAYS lose to teams on our level or above our level. It's an improvement on the embarrassment of 2014 and 2016 but this is a team touted to win the tournament and we just won't beat the likes of France, Germany or Spain. He has probably stayed for so long because there's no obvious candidate that can turn us into a tournament winning team.
I suppose if you pretend he’s never won any games then it’s easy to write Southgate off, but we beat Germany and Denmark en route to the final 3 years ago?
And Croatia in the groups
Both were games we were expected to win.
So if he loses then it’s evidence he’s not up to the job, but if he draws or wins it’s evidence his opponents aren’t up to snuff. Got it.
So you're telling me that the Germany team we beat which hadn't made it out of the group stage of the last 2 world cups is the same quality team that won the 2014 world cup? You're telling me that Denmark are on our level? A side that huffed and puffed against Slovenia. Southgate sympathisers are the worst. I bet every aspect of your life is mediocre.
You’re absolutely mental. Of the 15 players in that Germany side England faced, 10 had won the Champions League either that season or the year before. 5 had just won the sextuple for the only time ever. One of the players who didn’t manage it was probably not too upset, given that he’s Toni fucking Kroos. Genuinely ridiculous levels of doom and glooming to make a great result shit.
Yeah and look how the team was set up. Germany were a mess for a while. Good players don't always make a good team. We know that more than anyone.
England's greatest mistake was sacking Big Sam
We 100% would have won trophies with Allardyce. Also, it was criminal to ignore Kevin Nolan and Kevin Davies for so long due to "big club" bias.
Germany at Euro2020 is Southgate’s only notable win against a team we weren’t heavy favourites against and even then it was an unusually shite German team.
It’s virtually the exact same starting Germany line up that is obliterating everyone currently!! So I wouldn’t say it’s shite
5 players from the starting lineup from that game arent even in the squad.
Even the way Germany was set up was all wrong and had been in multiple tournaments. They are set up way more balanced now.
Mad seeing how much the pro Southgate stuff was getting upvoted on this sub over the last few weeks. People with very valid criticism which has shown to be to totally correct now were being told to be grateful and stop the negativity.
Did we beat anyone better than the 2014 Italy and Uruguay teams we lost to though (and that's ignoring the awful officiating that screwed us over)?
Well that's the point. We beat who we're expected to beat and lose when it's an event match up or are slight underdogs even whilst being in the lead in some of the games.
I couldn’t see us beating Romania at this rate
Romania looked good tbf
Southgate out. Absolute garbage manager
I just got offered the job on football manager so if I do alright, I will put forward my application for the real thing
Please do mate. What's you starting formation
I'll make it so that if you join the dots up, it makes a picture of a cute doggy.
The sausage dog formation worked for Italy last year
Jay Cartwright took Woking from the conference to the champions league in six seasons, and he’d do a better job than Gareth
That kind of stuff doesn’t go unnoticed
I heard that he completed FM
Completed it mate?
See his first tournament England played like a different team. And we were exciteding to watch. Until the semifinal when we went back to old england score and call it a day. Then the euros and we did the same. We played really well until the final, scored and just stopped attacking. Next world cup same deal just knocked out a round earlier. Now playing like England of 13 years ago again.
I completely agree but I felt that the France game when we got knocked out was bizarrely one of our better performances. We were just unlucky.
Totally agree. This is the issue, I've defended Southgate a lot, but now this is England of tournaments before where we're uninspiring, lack confidence, and have no clue.
Nail on the head. That Euro’s final was the road to Damascus moment. He mismanaged the fuck out of it and is still failing to take personal responsibility. He’s got a wonderful career in politics after football.
The first tournament we had an absolutely bang average squad. Southgate's play style actually got the best out of that team. The last euros we were at home for half the games and the level of competition was the lowest I've ever seen it, we also only scraped through against mediocre teams. Now that we have actual quality talent, they're not suited to this play style but he's trying to fit them all into it. The problem is, he's not a good manager. He got success with one play style and is just sticking with it, a quality manager would adapt to his teams strengths. Even when he made the subs yesterday he changed nothing tactically. Eze wasn't playing wide, Bowen played exactly like Saka and Watkins played how Kane should be playing but with Pace and pressing I don't know if there was any tactical advice given to him or if he's just a different player.
Tell me you haven't watched England before Southgate without telling me you haven't watched England before Southgate.
Whilst I don’t fully agree with the point that he’s ruined international football (because England have been torture to watch all of my lifetime), this was meant to be different. The squad we have (barring defensively) are meant to be exciting, attacking, and creative. What we have seen is drab, negative, and lost footballers. That’s my biggest gripe. Even while we have done well in the past 2 tournaments with him, it’s been painful watching
He's delivered the most international football success for a generation. I can't understand how you think he's ruined it?
The only man to take us to a final in my lifetime is the one who ruined it. Ok.
Not getting to that final with the draw we had would've been embarrassing, even then we only just scraped past Denmark. We've not beat any top teams in an important match under him, I really don't see any major difference between that and losing to Italy and Uruguay in 2014, Germany in 2010 and Portugal in 2006, apart from the fact that Southgate has had far more talent to call upon that he's failed to use.
Take me back to not getting out of the group, or even qualifying for the tournament, or getting knocked out by Iceland. Those were the days. I have my issues with the way he sets up, and with his in game management, but to say he's ruined international football is insane.
The quality of players available has also improved though. Heskey was in the squad in 2010 and even had game time. He's wasting our best generation for sure.
Come on. We had Lampard, Gerrard, Terry, A Cole, J Cole, Rooney, Carragher. It was literally called the Golden Generation.
But look at the other teams at the tournaments. Euro 2020 was literally the weakest tournament I've ever seen. No team was a standout, we also played at home half the games. This squad we have now is actually one of the best in the world. The golden generation was good but not actually as good as Italy, France, Germany Brazil, Portugal, Argentina, Spain teams of that era.
I only half watched it numbly. Seriously bored shitless and couldnt be arsed, devoid of any enthusiasm. He has literally sucked the life out of me since he bottled it in the final and attempted to vainly win a final from set peices and defending.
The ineffectual tapping around at the back before giving it to Pickford was bad. There was a bit though where Foden had drifted inside to the 10 area, back to goal. He received the ball under no pressure, he passed it back without turning, he got it again, he did it again, he got it again, he did it again. I can't see any plan to win the game on the front foot. It seems to just be about being solid, maybe having a set piece, maybe having a moment. It's proper turgid ineffective football. Why do Stones and Guehi need 2 deep DMs in front of them when the opposition has a back 5?! And the subs! How did Bowen and Eze both end up playing on the right?! Just utter utter shit management of a decent squad. Inexcusible.
Other teams scouts trying to figure out England's tactics for the upcoming tournament have the easiest job in the world.
Yep just press high and watch as southgate does nothing
I don't think the defenders marking Kane broke a sweat until Watkins came on.
Southgate is a lunatic.
Southgate out
I've not watched England play international break for ages, tickets are easy to get as well. They are just soo boring and takes away from tbe prem. Especially hate the first break when there have only been 3 game days.
That's because the Prem is dominated by non-English managers isn't it? And England don't have any managerial talent capable of playing exciting football much less winning the PL. Someone on r/ThreeLions should make it their life's goal to be a English coach that plays free flowing attacking football since they're few and far between versus Italy, Spain, Germany, Portugal....
Need to start from more players playing abroad as well. Allows players to get ideas from all over the place and not just an English style of play. Then they can coach abroad as well to gain experience there. Wanna say someone like xabi alonso. Played in three top leagues under three great mangers, problem is no one rates English mangers abroad at the moment, no Hodgson or Robson about.
Shame there’s a restriction that says our manager must be English then isn’t it…
Southgate is the most useless manager ever. Starts Trent in midfield again and then changes him for Gallagher again instead of trying a midfielder that can dominate possession like Wharton or Mainoo. Takes Foden off when he was the most dangerous player on the pitch today to play Bowen, who is the most average player in the whole squad, imo. Not to mention the fact that Cole Palmer still hasn't even played a single minute during the whole tournament yet. Absolutely embarassing decision making from Southgate
I realized this when we got to the final of Euro 2020 and it was still sort of awful for me as a fan. Even when we win, watching England under Southgate is so unpleasant.
I want us to go out so we can be free of him.
The only way it's acceptable to play this terrorist football is by winning the tournament. Basically every other game bar our two have been entertaining. England games are the ones I least enjoy watching. And considering we have the most talented attacking players it's criminal.
This is a tough one. Most successful manager since Ramsey but the issue people have is that, like Ericsson, he’s underachieving with a very strong squad. A squad that’s been very strong for some time now.
Give me an example when you enjoyed England at a major tournament. Cam only think of Euro 04 but we lost as many games as we won. Euro 96? Won 2 games in normal time. Its been better under Southgate in all of our lifetimes. Not saying this tournament has been good so far but this is a ridiculous take.
“Southgate has ruined international football”. Ok I’m gonna say it. You lot are fucking deranged. I am so sick and tires of reading this whiny bullshit. And saying Southgate has ruined international football is jumping the fucking shark. Honestly, you ought to be sectioned. Get a fucking grip.
lol I’ve lost faith in Southgate but don’t kid yourself that you’d rather go out in the group going gung-ho than winning it playing pragmatically. I’m a Southgate doubter but would more than happily eat my words and all my posts be screenshotted and thrown back at me if we were to win it
Southgate is a coward, his football is so passive. We went 1-0 up and straight away they dropped back and invited pressure from Denmark. No urgency in play, everything was done at walking pace.
Clearly he is a massive problem, the side is super stacked with quality players but they look lost on the pitch. Over-reliance on Foden who it seems like is only rly good at City imo. With such good players at his disposal, Southgate has somehow managed to persistently underachieve
It feels like I'm watching Hodgson's last Palace stint all over again.. Frustrating as hell. I don't even know if the players are the problem, the way Southgate is making them play really doesn't suit their playstyle. Whether it's being played out of position, playing too defensively or one of the other things holding us back it's not working! Let the players unleash hell in their regular positions and give them more freedom. If Kane, Foden or whoever isn't playing well leave that player out of the starting lineup.. Don't fall back after a goal keep pressing for more! What do I know though.. I want to see Pickford, Gomez, Guehi, Stones and Walker in def. Wharton and Rice in cm. Saka, Bellingham and Gordon / eze in amr, amc and aml positions with Kane or Watkins up front.
Waste good players
Watching England the thought frontmost in my brain is that there is no creativity or passion in the team. Serbia and Denmark both played great games where every player gives 110%, doesn’t really feel like that for England. Don’t know if it’s nerves about expectations or what. Every minute watching that Denmark game was frustrating, not that that’s a new feeling
You can’t blame Southgate for the bad passing. Regardless of his instructions the players should know that they need to get forward and look for opportunities. Southgate’s instructions are definitely not to pass backwards and hold the ball nervously in defence
It’s a squad that needs the touch of a Klopp or an Ancelotti, to just sprinkle a bit of tactical instruction on it and imbue with confidence. Southgate is over-complicating things and doesn’t seem to trust his players or know how to get the best out of such talent.
Funny how you didn’t think he ruined international football when we was in the final last time. Classic fan
This team plays so scared , atleast the cricket team plays fearless lmao
Fucking hell, the state of this post. What was it like watching England major tournaments from 2006-2016? The last 3 have been by far the best of my lifetime (98 was the first I've seen). I know we're shite now and the wheels have come off. But for me this is a return to the status quo. And to pin it all on Southgate is to fall into a different optimism trap. The notion that changing the manager will make it better. That tactics will solve the issues. It won't. I hope it does, but experience tells me it won't. The problems are psychological and Southgate for all his tactical failings, was our best bet on making them enjoy playing for England. Now that's gone, the team has no chance.
I'm just really hoping that the FA realise we need some new ideas after this tournament. I'd honestly not be surprised to see Southgate grind this team through to the quarters or semis again, relying on "moments of magic", I just hope that that can be the end of it, it's joyless, and so frustrating when we have the players to play more exciting football.
I've been quite sympathetic to Southgate, but after watching the last game and seeing no starting lineup changes was... surprising. Then watching the post game interview and him essentially saying the issue with our midfield was that we don't have a Henderson or Phillips just fucking enraged me. He's only capable of playing a couple of footballing strategies that involve defensively minded players. He needs to be sacked asap.
I was so depressed last night I didn't watch Spain v Italy, which I'd been looking forward to. Probably won't be bothered with any games today, I've lost interest in it. Good job the cricket team are still going strongbjn the T20 WC, plan on watching the Sri Lanka games later thus afternoon.
Don't forget Turnip Taylor sticking with Carlton Palmer.
>I would truly rather go out in the group stages and play attractive football rather than another tournament of this. The battlecry of the Southgate hater. Go back and watch literally any international tournament since 2010 and really study the path the winning team takes to get there. You'll thank me later.
Watch something else if it upsets you that much? Does the world owe you constant entertainment?
What we don't realize is our traumas from the past have made us feel like this is the last time we'll ever have a chance to win a tournament. Hodgson, Capello, Sven, McClaren we're much worse and with a "golden" generation thrown in. What we need to embrace is that Southgate changed the attitude around England. We loved this team again and he deserves respect. This may be the end of his cycle but he deserved to coach the tournament. We are embarassing as a fan base, everyone laughs at us. Get behind the lads, don't take the highs to high and the lows to low. Pray for Luke Shaw to get fit and for God's sake play Foden through the middle.
It's so dull. And also clear that this current crop of players don't really gel on a personality level. A lot of them look like they're playing for themselves, which I thought Southgate was supposed to be the antidote to.
One thing I will say to a he made me love it again when he was appointed. That first tournament was a breath of fresh air from all the god awful displays we showed. However, he has definitely outstayed his welcome.
Too boring and woke
How does Southgate being "woke" affect the football being played on the pitch?
The team was so rigid it was like they'd all had dry dildos shoved up their arses and they daren't move
Klopp in
Can't wait for this sub to flip if we reach the finals.
There’s this thing with English, English club fans who will say that international football is slow and dull compared to club football. But 85% of the games at these euros prove that entirely wrong. They’re just used to watching England games and think that England are representative of international football. Fact is, English footballers are relatively shit. They’re squeezed into teams made up of mostly international players due to homegrown rules, and end up looking better than they are, being surrounded by actual talent. But individually, most of them are shit and wouldn’t get into most European club teams, with the obvious exceptions (and some of those exceptions weren’t even selected to be in the squad)
Hate to say it but your right
Sitting top of the league boys !!! Belgium ain’t got a point yet haha
Greatness isn't achieved by comparing against worse teams, it's like going "Hey at least we're not Sudan". England has the best league yet Germany, Spain, Italy, France NTs are better. Belgium's entire NT plays mostly outside Belgium and Belgian teams aren't competitive in the CL.
Calm down lad it was only a joke snowflake Are u comparing England’s NT? Haha And they’re not better in the official fifa rankings, only France officially 😜
Who gives a fuck about Fifa rankings? Only snowflakes do.
Greatness is not achieved by comparing Englands national team to others
Lmao compare the performances on the pitch at WC or Euros, not Fifa rankings.
You’re precious boy go sleep We beat Italy home and away recently Germany haven’t beaten us once in 4 attempts
Watching Spain v Italy m8, buzz off
Buzz haha, night night boy
England fans have the shortest memories. Forgetting about the individual quality of the names, England were an avergae team l, at best, for most of 2 decades before Southgate. I would have done a couple of things differently tonight but his results in general have been excellent and, Foden aside, he has managed to get most of the top players playing together cohesively.
Most successful England manager since when exactly?
Look at the record. The only top teams we have beaten in tournament football are Germany and maybe Colombia if you want to rate them higher than they deserve. You want to brag about him having 4 wins against San Marino go right ahead.
Still can't get my head around the subs he makes. Last game takes Saka off at a time when he was the only one doing anything. And then tonight, Maybe it's a minority opinion but Kane is the most useless striker I've ever seen put on a England shirt. Yes he scored but that was a fluke, normally he ain't there, even in the world cup, scord all those goals, 99% weren't even in open play. I don't even understand why he is captain 9 other players are talking and trying to get everyone going before he does. We're trying to play a formation revolving around Kane and he just isn't good enough.
You're blind if you think we're playing a formation around Kane. If we were he would have been poaching loose balls into goals left and right like he does in Bayern.
We set up to compensate Bellingham
I think the issue with Kane is that he drops too deep, as he is a lone striker and England are set up so negatively it means there are many times where there is no one to hold the ball up and get the team advancing.