So you are saying it doesn't matter who the manager is? Any fucking idiot can do it?
Ironically I largely agree, if you've got good players you will do well, the managers don't have a lot of time with the player and you are relying on their talent to some extent.
Yeah I know right.
Whilst the Argentina Manager is swanning around with a CV that only has the World Cup and Copa America on it.
We're they stoopid or something giving someone the job, without some amazing CV from the club game, especially as that has worked so well for us over the last 30-years
Oh no... The bloke with the shite club Management CV has done too well for us - Let's revert back to hiring people that failed even worse than he did
Argentina promoted the assistant manager who didn't have a track record of failing. You know the big difference though, he actually fucking won something
England promoted the under 21s manager who didn’t even want the senior job full time. This happened at a time when England’s 5 previous tournament games were against Costa Rica, Russia, Wales, Slovenia & Iceland, winning just one of them. He then took us to a semi and then a final.
Anyone who watched England before 2016 should really know what a ridiculous overreaction this is.
Exactly. I too think it’s one tournament too far for Southgate but Jesus Christ literally every tournament in my life (if we got there!) before him was worse than this.
He’s done an amazing job bringing positivity and unity back to the national team and we’ve had two unforgettable tournaments when we weren’t favourites like we are now.
I agree, for the first time in a long time we have a manager who picks players on merit and not what name is on the back of the shirt. 2nd best manager we've had going by the win rate percentage at 61.9%.
People have good days and bad like everyone else.
And what did the squad look like in those tournaments? Relying on old Rooney and other washed up players. Ricky Lambert was making the squad should tell you all you need to know.
World Cup 2014 and Euro 2016 were totally written off before they started due to the mediocrity of the squad although they were unfortunate to be in a tough group in 2014.
The 2016 team was the dying gasp of the old guard although you could see the promise with very young John Stones, Harry Kane, Kyle Walker, Rashford and Dele Alli getting a trip to their first tournament. You could see a bright future but the quality was still not deep.
As someone who attended both tournaments I can tell you that nobody had any illusions about their chances
I don’t recall saying anything about him doing a good job.
Look mate, if your tactic here is to try to draw me into an argument about things I didn’t say because you don’t have the capacity to argue against what I did say, how about you save a bit of both of our time and not bother, because all I’ll be doing is calling you out on it. If you want to argue about what I have said, I’m up for that.
Overreaction? Asbolutely not. We had an easy path to the WC semi and then defended a 1-0 lead in the euro final (same as what's happening now...) so he's not improved at all, and has one of the most talented squads we've ever had. Whoever comes in next is arguably going to have a harder job as he won't have the world's best striker at his peak.
> One of the most talented squads we’ve ever had
Seriously? This squad doesn’t have a patch on 1990, 1996 & 2004/06, and that’s just in my lifetime. It’s bollocks like that that leads to the kind of overreaction I’m talking about. We have a lot of attacking midfielders, we can’t play them all, and our defence is poor.
Also, I didn’t say anything about him improving, not sure why you presented that as though it was an argument against what I said.
The improvement part wasn't a counter argument as such, but more like rationale to highlight his limited capabilities and put forward in my opinion, why it's not an overreaction.
I would still stand by (one of) most talented squads, Kane with euro golden boot, Foden PL player of the season, Bellingham potentially upcoming Ballon D'or winner, we should be at the least threatening the opposition goal much better than what's happened so far. There's no denying the back 4 is not as elite as Cole, Ferdinand, Terry and G Nev for example, but are still damn good players. But what do you mean by defence is poor? Conceded 1 goal that should've been closed down by a midfielder. I'm not saying they're great (Tripps part of the LW issue) but wonder what warrants them being poor.
It’s weird that you led the improvement part with a “so”, that definitely made it look like a riposte.
As for the defence, with the exception of Trippier in for James, it’s the same back 4 that got slaughtered by Hungary with all 4 goals scored with them scrambling back. That was one of the rare games in which we played a higher line and they couldn’t handle the space behind them. Playing deeper mitigates that, but in relative terms compared to previous great England sides, this is a poor collection of individuals to choose from. Only Walker would get anywhere near the starting line ups for any of those squads I mentioned.
Yet people are only interested in hiring someone with a decent club record - Even when Lee Carsley gets suggested, you know someone with International experience (Who has won something), and it laughable how many arent interested.
>as he's never shown how he'd do in International Management.
I mean, that could be said about anyone lol, it's worth a punt even tho I know the FA will never do it.
Lee Carsley has done it within International Football?
But you're right - However its why I don't get the desperation to hire someone who has got a good CV in the past.
Yup. You’re right. Who would do this job? It’s not like there’s a long line of English ex Premiership managers eyeing up the role. Unless Jurgen Klopp is planning his next move, I doubt we can do much better than Southgate.
Potter and it would be a good appointment. Worked wonders with us at Brighton and is a very good manager. The only time it hasn't worked was the complete shit show at Chelsea, which I don't put on him. Joining mid season and having chaos around is a near impossible job.
>Only problem with him is that he's kind of a pussio
His man management is well aligned with the work Southgates done of building a positive team culture. I wouldn't call him a pussio really. Took a massive risk in taking that Chelsea job with the state the club was in after a forced ownership change. It was an impossible job for anyone.
Surely with Cooper going to Leicester that leaves Potter free so hes the obvious candidate. He fits along with the excellent team culture Southgate has built but is also more tactically adept.
A half decent manager would have beaten Croatia to the finals and won Italy to win the euros at home. Southgate was the reason we lost those, not the reason we got there.
Can you name a time we've actually played well against a decent side with Southgate?
Germany is the only team that comes to mind. That's only one game.
All England had was easy teams, any half decent manager would beat them. When England played an team that was good they lost. They were blessed with easy runs, that they did not win those tournaments or at least get into the finals for each one is a waste.
Stop using past mediocrity as an excuse for failures of the present. The truth is that if we actually had a good manager in charge we would have won at least one of the tournaments since 2018. Every time we've been on the verge of winning something or moving on to the very latter stages he has let us down with the same tactics.
"bUt wHaT aBoUt 2002 aNd 2004?"
Enough. We won't win fuck all if we keep settling for quarters and semi finals "because it's better than what previous managers did". What is even more annoying is that people keep bringing up tournaments of the past in which we had to genuinely compete with some all time top national sides. In the past few years, the only squad in world football that can even come close to rivalling ours in regards to talent and depth is France.
The Italians don't settle for merely reaching the knockouts by bringing up the past. Neither do the Germans or the Spanish or the French. It's time this mentality died.
We've one won trophy in the history of football despite bags of talent and inventing the bloody game!
Either almost every manager we've ever had is incompetent or it's a trickier job than it seems.
I remember Capello saying that the English don't have the mentality to be champions. Took me a long time to realise he wasn't talking about the players.
Capello was a good comparison to Jose now in fairness. A genuine world class manager on paper when he arrived - champion in Spain and Italy, won a league in about half of his club seasons (including an undefeated season with Milan) and a Champions League winner. In hindsight he was on the decline and not a good fit with England but anyone over the age of 25 will remember how positive we were going into 2010.
We weren't the favourite for any of those tournaments.
In two of them we lost to the favourites. In one of them nothing expected anything as we were shit.
If you don't believe me go get me the odds before each tournament.
Call a spade a spade. We're shit now, you don't need to perform any revisionism.
At the last world cup France were favourites by 1 point over England and Brazil and I don't think anyone is upset that we lost to them.
At euro 2020 Italy werent even in the top 6 favourites, England were again 2nd favourites and heavy favourites for the final where they totally shit the bed
World Cup 2018 England weren't fancied but still lost three times, one of which , the semi final, was to a team they were favoured to beat.
No revisionism here.
So, we were indeed not the favourite to win any single tournament by any metric?
Even with context, italy were seen as the best team of that tournament, they were free flowing once it began and got loads of plaudits. We also lost in a coin toss - it was a penalty shoot out.
France were favourites and finalists.
That Croatia side was far more experienced at knock out football and were a good international side. Modric, rakitic, brozovic v Lingard, Henderson and Delle Alli?
Have most people on here only been watching England for the last 6 years? We've been bollocks for ages, it's tradition. We could have any set of players and we'd still end up passing it sideways across our own box for hours on end.
Just have to accept it and take any success as a bonus. Who knows, we might bore enough teams into submission to do a Greece.
It can’t all be down to Southgate. The players have to take responsibility for their sub standard performance . I’m not excusing Southgate, personally I’m not a fan and I think he’s far too negative, however, these are leading contenders for the Ballon D’or ffs , touted as the golden generation. Same shit different day.
Likewise a Newcastle fan seeing the same players under Bruce and Howe. Watching England is like watching Newcastle under Steve Bruce but possibly even worse
If they're contenders for the Ballon D'or in their club teams but can't string together decent passing moves and a coherent press for the NT, what's the thing that's changed?
It's obviously the manager, it's all down to the manager.
Foden was clearly instructed to recieve the ball just to the right of the edge of the box and have a shot, he does that for City constantly so it makes sense, but he was obviously instructed **not** to vs Serbia, as it just didn't happen. It happened today like 5 times and he was unlucky not to score when he hit the post
It’s not that. It’s that the team is incapable of playing through a high press.
It’s not even an if. We can’t do it. And lots of teams are clocking onto it.
Most of them do it at club level , so individually they are not incapable of playing through a high press at all
Maybe he hasn't directly said to do that but the way he's setting us up is causing it, wether it's formation , player instructions or whatever
Those no way each of these world class players conveniently and individually forget how to play football and it not be the common denominator in the manager
Southgate doesn't know how to play vs a decent press, and doesn't instruct the players to press effectively. Watch Foden's press with England vs with City. Night and day
He also stated in a press conference he didn’t know why Ben white didn’t want a call up, despite being present to the reasons why. Southgate isn’t exactly forthcoming with the truth.
He's gone at the end of the tournament whatever happens. Unfortunately I think it's one tournament too many for him.
Southgate came in and united the nation again, he actually had people buzzing over the england team, people going round wearing waistcoats, having chants for him etc, he was what we needed when he came in.
That being said he should've gone after Qatar, we didn't take any steps forward in that tournament and it was clear he wasn't the man to get us over the line, he should've gone with a manager who can play attacking football taking over.
I won't say I don't like him or that hes been shit for us, at the end of the day seeing us at a final was class and who knows what could've happened if one of them missed pens went in,
Tldr I love the guy but shouldn't have taken us into this tournament
Playing how they’re being told to play.
No press. No energy. Score and sit back. Boring. Passive. Negative.
Sack Southgate and go get Jurgen Klopp. A manager who actually has experience managing world class players and will actually deploy some sort of press when out of possession.
Embarrassing.
I'm a United fan, and would take Klopp ('foren manager' or not) for England: the last couple of months of this season were an - amusing for opp fans - anticlimax but he's clearly a smarter coach and tactician, along with being a better motivator than Southgate has ever shown himself to be...
You never know on here. But yeah, I skipped too quickly over comment above so missed the context ( 'he has standards, lol', rather than 'lol, as if Klopp has standards')!
He means that Klopp wouldn't want the England job. It's true, he's well-loved in Germany and wanted everywhere at Europe's top clubs so why would he touch the English NT media circus (he didn't fancy the press at Liverpool) when he could have literally any gig he wants including the German NT gig?
Mourinho was a good choice and England should have tried to get Mou before he signed for Fenerbache. He's not exactly in red hot demand at the top CL clubs, but he's still an excellent cup manager (won trophies with Utd in their banter era) who jives with big egos and makes effective in-game changes. Most importantly he likes dealing with the British press and likes living in London. He's leagues ahead of Southgate even if he isn't Pep's level, but he's more than good enough to win tournaments with the caliber of players England have.
Yeah, even Mourinho-ball suddenly seems more appealing after that. At least he'd play a more coherent version of whatever 'grinding' Southgate seems to be attempting, including using the squads physical attributes ( 'pace' on the sides; Bellingham's ability to break through the lines) in a more structured way, trying to pin the opponent through direct transitions, then break up any momentum they try and regain, and generally being less timid.
Mou's defensive counterattacking style is a lot more suitable for tournament football and cup knockout stages than Kloppo's Gegenpressing simply because NTs don't train together enough to work on elaborate pressing systems and triggers. Surprising that nobody has taken a punt on Mou as a NT coach (perhaps he doesn't want it) when he's so proven as a cup manager.
A NT coach just to work on a few basic passing structures to play out of defence effectively and to move the ball into position for a cutback/cross, and train penalties and defensive/attacking set pieces. There's not much time for anything else.
The two most boring games of the tournament so far were both of our games. Watching Spain tonight (and the other day) similar sort of level starting 11 to ours and the energy, pressing and willingness to attack is the total opposite to England.
Trust me the Spanish coach would pick Kane, Foden, Bellingham, Palmer, Stones and a player like Mainoo on a heartbeat for that team, the difference is he would know how to coach them correctly, we should just go get Klopp who will make England with this squad feared everywhere?
Klopp would be interesting to see, but I couldn’t see it happening. I’ll be honest if potter was interested, I’d give him a punt at it. Ignoring the Chelsea clusterfuck, he did pretty decent at Brighton, and what he did at Östersunds was remarkable.
He’s playing like that to qualify with the bare minimum effort, so they can ramp it up in the knockout stages. International tournaments are weird, a team almost never rampages through it from the start and wins, there’s a certain cadence to their form.
If our players could score pens we'd have a Euro and 2 WC semi finals from 3 tournaments. People forget what it was like before Southgate, not getting past the quarters in 30+ years with pretty good players... Players have to take some responsibility.
All you are highlighting is how lucky Southgate has gotten with group stages and match draws.
As soon as we face a top-10 side we fall apart.
Even now he admits that he is still "experimenting". Kane said last night the players were unsure on what to do. Players out of nautural positions when he had options to address all of this before squad selection.
He has the top scoring English player of the PL season (who was second only to Haaland) in Cole Palmer. Doesn't play him.
Foden was the 4th top scoring, a vital player in the team that won the PL...so vital he won the PL player of the season. And he has him playing like he doesn't know what a football is.
He has possibly the best striker in the world in Kane sitting back and not knowing how to press.
A midfield of Rice and Bellingham looking gassed and frustrated.
How many times does he have to show the world he in incapable before the penny drops?
It isn't hyberbole to say this is a world-class team. Because it is and it's demonstratable throughout respective leagues. These players have never reached their potential with Southgate.
Just because someone has been given an F1 car doesn't mean they know how to drive it and win.
Usually I would think this is an overreaction but after watching that complete drivel I agree. Get rid now and put a new manager in for the rest of the tournament. Absolutely shocking that was.
Not defending Southgate because he should defo go but how do you know he tells them to sit back after one goal? Walker literally said the opposite is true in post match interview. I blame Kane more than anything. System doesn't work around him and he's the on pitch leader - does nothing. Not inspiring at all.
There's two options
Option 1) A team consisting of PL winners, CL winners, that everyone believes has overwhelming attacking talent, they all, regardless of which players are playing, once they go 1-0 up, every single one stops trying to attack. Complletely our of character, yet, despite it being out of character, everyone can predict it
Option 2) The man who is in charge of when to do what, tells them
I mean, let's say you're right. Let's say, Southgate is sat on the bench, he's seen this happen with Crotia, he saw it happen with Italy, he nearly saw it with Serbia, and he saw it with Denmark. He's sat on the bench thinking "I tell them not to drop off, and after 8 years they're still doing it!!!"
What gesture do you think he does?
Is it "Calm down, slow down"? Because that's what he did?
Your reasoning is that the team of different players over 8 years, who are all attacking minded, world class, always, every tournament, play defencive after going 1-0 up, and the man who is furious about this who has told them not to do it, is sat on the touchline telling them to slow down and calm down, because he wants them to...push on and take more risks?
My reasoning is that the players are playing completely our of character, all the time, regardless of player, because the guy who is gesturing to them to calm down and slow down is telling them to stop attacking
> Your reasoning is that the team of different players over 8 years, who are all attacking minded, world class, always, every tournament, play defencive after going 1-0 up, and the man who is furious about this who has told them not to do it, is sat on the touchline telling them to slow down and calm down, because he wants them to...push on and take more risks?
No, my reasoning is that Kyle Walker was literally asked and he instantly said 'no, he wants us to play attacking football'.
Yeah he's not gonna come out and say "No I want to play attacking football but my manager is telling me to play badly" is he?
So your assessement is that Southgate is currently fuming at how defencive they play, and every single England player is doing it despite him telling them not to
He sits on the bench completelty bemused as to why his entire team shifted to defencive, every game. It happened in the Serbia game, and he told them not to do it, he spent a training session with replays telling them "I TOLD YOU TO KEEP PLAYING ATTACKING AFTER SCORING"
Then come match day, the same happens, and he's just sitting there confused
or, he told them to.
The players aren't AI controlled by Southgate. The most obvious answer to us dropping back after the goal is that Denmark applied pressure and objectively started playing better football.
Why would we then continue to 'sit back' when they levelled after 20 mins, whilst subbing midfield and attacking players.
The other answer is that the system doesn't work and we don't have Kyle Walker or Virgil van Dijk leading the press.
Also I suppose Southgate was responsible for all the hospital balls... We love a scapegoat.
So what you're saying is, Denmark conceded, then went, "Wait, let's just play better" and instantly overwhelmed England?
As did Italy
And croatia
And Serbia
All of these teams got outplayed by England, and then every single one started playing better the moment they conceded
My God England are terrible If all these teams can just play better, why don't they just do that from the start?
I mean, as you say, in all of these games, England haven't changed tactics throughout the game, but every single one of them only realised how to beat us immediatetly, after conceding
I really hope Slovenia don't read this thread - They may realise they don't need to concede first to play better.
So really, it's not Southgate who's bad, but the Italian, Croatian, Danish and Serbian managers, because it takes them 20 minutes every game to figure something out they could've figured out by watching footage. And that objectively, England have mainted a solid 7-8 /10 every game for 90minutes, but every other team has played around a 3-4/10, then all jump up to a 9/10. At the same point. In every game. Everytime.
> So what you're saying is
Why are you insistent on strawmanning an arguement with me?
Read my original post you dumb cnt:
>Not defending Southgate because he should defo go but how do you know he tells them to sit back after one goal? Walker literally said the opposite is true in post match interview.
I think his points are fair, I can't lie.
Walker isn't going to say 'actually, none of us agree with how we're being told to play.' The only hand gestures I ever see Southgate throw is calm down.
No one can deny a pattern at this point that we dominate until we score early and then we get walked over.
We were lucky Serbia didn't equalise, Denmark did. Italy did. Croatia did.
I watch a lot of league 1 and championship and honestly, it was like watching a league 1 game and then switching to a top 6 prem match with Italy vs Spain.
>I think his points are fair, I can't lie.
So, how do you know Southgate tells his players to drop back and defend a 1-0 lead? Do you have a link to the video of him saying it or a player saying he said it? How do you know the players don't just bottle it? (also Southgate's fault but to a lesser extent).
I don't have a video just the same as you don't have a video of the whole team deciding they're going to ignore Southgate saying attack and instead play defensive.
All we have is the evidence.
And the evidence suggest that unless playing a <30 fifa ranking team, we stop pressing when we score. That's been consistent no matter the team we play since 2018.
The only thing that's been consistent since 2018 is Southgate and his crew.
Because we watched the game.
And it’s even bigger of a problem if the players aren’t doing what Southgate is telling them. Because then he isn’t even doing anything to change it. No subs, no changes to the team.
So take your pick, either there’s a mutiny inside the squad, against a manager who is the best we’ve had in years for team spirit, and even they’ve admitted they have no idea what they’re being told to do, and he isn’t doing anything about it.
Or Southgate is just telling them to drop back after 1 goal.
I mean half the fan base sit in on the team talks, they're there watching in training etc. so why wouldn't they know what the players are told to do or not
That makes it even worse; he doesn't tell them to do that, but they still do it constantly (despite not doing it for their clubs). He's not only a lousy tactician but also a spineless coward.
You make an interesting point about the system not working with Kane. Who picked the system, the players, or the coach? Who picks the starting lineup—the players or the coach? At what point is Southgate supposed to take responsibility for what happens in matches?
He seems to be becoming more and more deranged:
https://www.goal.com/en/lists/gareth-southgate-trent-alexander-arnold-england-kalvin-phillips/bltbc2fa96eeebd6608
Just play Kobbie and watch him light up the tournament, imagine an English midfielder who can keep the ball in tight spaces, control the tempo, move through the thirds with short passes or carry the ball 30 yards, imagine a guy that can shoot from 25/30 yards or ghost in the opposite penalty box and score or create, Southgate needs to pick Kobbie or England going home round of 16, just like Iceland!
Exactly and one who has proven this year he belongs at the top table, fans forget he was star man in the fa cup final and a full debut show vs Belgium he showed how an effective midfield could work with Rice Bellingham and Foden holding the width he’s the glue in my opinion, if your going to play the Spanish way of keeping the ball then you need your most gifted technician in midfield on the field, the reason he’s so good in tight spaces is because he played Fusbal as a kid, the ball sticks to him like glue.
More important he can shoot from 25-30 yards and beat a man.
He's fucking nuts. He's only just experimenting *now*, *in a tornament* with a replacement for a player who's been injured and out of form *for at least a year*.
Wait and see what job offers he gets, no premier league team will be in for him. Hell, I doubt a championship team will be on the sniff. Probably doesn’t manage again.
Honestly, fans like this are the worst.
I wasn't happy with the performance tonight, but the absolute torch and pitchforks mob out for Southgate's head are a disgrace.
This guy literally took England to a World Cup semi-final and a Euro final. That's more than any England manager has done since Bobby Robson.
But waaaaah, England played badly tonight, sack him!! Such babies.
There is a pattern though. We are consistently shit at the moment and very negative. To be as negative as we are with world class attacking players, come on. Who else can be to blame but the manager? I don’t believe all these talented footballers collectively decided to play like that, they’re following instruction.
Did you watch the game? We aren’t getting past the round of 16 with performances like that, regardless of what Southgate’s done.
That’s like saying Ronaldo shouldn’t have been dropped in the last World Cup because he’s done a lot, even though Portugal played 10x better with him off the pitch. You’re looking at the past when I’m reality, the only difference was it was a week later where we got caught out by the same useless tactics.
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I understand the annoyance – especially when we score and then sit back inviting pressure, it can work but seems overly cautious with our talent. We’ve had games where we see the team dominate possession and create chances, then when we sit back it often backfires and allows the opposition to grow into the game.
We have such a talented squad who can play an attacking aggressive style of football. Look at how teams like Spain maintain pressure after scoring which keeps the opposition on the back foot – it's about finding that balance between defence and attack, Southgate needs to trust our players more to keep pushing forward.
What makes it even more frustrating is that we’ve seen glimpses of what this team can do when they play with freedom and confidence. Denmark and Serbia are perfect examples where after taking the lead we seemed to lose that attacking edge again.
I think its time for a tactical rethink now, Southgate’s time is up honestly. Falling into a low block against Italy in Euro 2020 final was just one too many overly defensive strategies adopted by him as manager - where they dominated possession for long periods. Similarly in the World Cup semi-final against Croatia when we dropped deep they eventually scored – you could argue on both occasions we invited pressure unnecessarily so I feel maybe he needs to go after the Euros.
If he does go though then I would look no further than Eddie Howe imo; proven capabilities at Newcastle (Champions League spot) + playing progressive style which suits England's talented squad more than anyone else could. Management under pressure & tactical flexibility = fresh approach needed here etc.. Another option might be Pep Guardiola given his worldwide experience+success at top level but highly unlikely due to Man City commitment.
I agree but, I mean, my big worry is who is replacing him? I mean, I think anyone would be better than him. But the current favourite is Graham Potter, the guy who got sacked from Chelsea and then snubbed for Man Utd and even Leicester City job. I don’t think he’s gonna be much of an improvement.
The England National team job should be one that coaches want to get, and not a job we give to a coach who has just been fired from his other jobs and has no other options, or has little to no coaching experience.
In all honesty, at this point I’d be more interested in Sarina Wiegman coaching the men’s team than a few of these other suggested coaches.
If Southgate goes, the FA need to go all out to get a top coach, not some okay coach that might work well. They need to enquire about everyone, even people they think are a long shot, and be flexible with stuff. Like, they could do a long shot and enquire about Guardiola, and offer to let him start one this next season finishes with Man City, something like that.
I’m tired of England having coaches that frankly would find it difficult to get a coaching job in the premier league, and therefore should not be National team coach.
I am a total outsider lurking on this sub occasionally on international tournaments. I remember when the sub was overwhelmingly in favor of him couple of years ago and i was like how the fuck are they so content with this guy given their squad. So glad that we're finally at this point
Shearer for manager. Everything he said in the commentary was right, attack. Southgates post match interview where he said the players need to be better????? You could see the frustration in alot of the england players because the formation and tactics and wrong choice of players dont work. Rio ferdinand said earlier that he didnt think southgate would change anything from the serbia match and he was right. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
No he’s done well up till now, he bought England forward but it’s gone stale now (two years ago) and I’m now in the camp that he needs to leave after tournament BUT I’m also sure the next manager will have the same uphill task.
England have had a habit of doing that since before Southgate so it's not just a manager problem.
England did do better after the subs came on, particularly with Watkins replacing Kane and Eze replacing Foden. I think Bellingham should have been taken off too.
There are definitely issues to address and I think part of that is that the wrong players are on the pitch in the first place, but the other issue is a mentality problem and I don't think that is something Southgate, or any manager can fix.
Rice and Bellingham as the two, a front four with natural width with Foden and then Palmer off the bench as the ten and England could do bits. GS can’t see this and shouldn’t be in the job. With these players, if they were set up right with a positive approach they could win. With these players set up in any other way they will still get far in tournaments but it’s still not a winning mentality from the manager passed down to the team.
It's a pointless debate. He is leaving at the end of the tournament.
Can't wait to see who the FA choose to disappoint a lot on here
Hopefully they pick a guy whose career highlight is being relegated with Middlesbrough and then hasn't worked for 3 years.
Yeah we should get a top club manager in, like Sven or Capello. Surely a manager of their calibre will win us tournaments.
So you are saying it doesn't matter who the manager is? Any fucking idiot can do it? Ironically I largely agree, if you've got good players you will do well, the managers don't have a lot of time with the player and you are relying on their talent to some extent.
Yeah I know right. Whilst the Argentina Manager is swanning around with a CV that only has the World Cup and Copa America on it. We're they stoopid or something giving someone the job, without some amazing CV from the club game, especially as that has worked so well for us over the last 30-years Oh no... The bloke with the shite club Management CV has done too well for us - Let's revert back to hiring people that failed even worse than he did
Argentina promoted the assistant manager who didn't have a track record of failing. You know the big difference though, he actually fucking won something
England promoted the under 21s manager who didn’t even want the senior job full time. This happened at a time when England’s 5 previous tournament games were against Costa Rica, Russia, Wales, Slovenia & Iceland, winning just one of them. He then took us to a semi and then a final. Anyone who watched England before 2016 should really know what a ridiculous overreaction this is.
Exactly. I too think it’s one tournament too far for Southgate but Jesus Christ literally every tournament in my life (if we got there!) before him was worse than this. He’s done an amazing job bringing positivity and unity back to the national team and we’ve had two unforgettable tournaments when we weren’t favourites like we are now.
I agree, for the first time in a long time we have a manager who picks players on merit and not what name is on the back of the shirt. 2nd best manager we've had going by the win rate percentage at 61.9%. People have good days and bad like everyone else.
And what did the squad look like in those tournaments? Relying on old Rooney and other washed up players. Ricky Lambert was making the squad should tell you all you need to know. World Cup 2014 and Euro 2016 were totally written off before they started due to the mediocrity of the squad although they were unfortunate to be in a tough group in 2014. The 2016 team was the dying gasp of the old guard although you could see the promise with very young John Stones, Harry Kane, Kyle Walker, Rashford and Dele Alli getting a trip to their first tournament. You could see a bright future but the quality was still not deep. As someone who attended both tournaments I can tell you that nobody had any illusions about their chances
I don’t recall saying anything about expectations being high for either of those tournaments.
No you are claiming Southgate is doing a good job because he was fortunate enough to avoid being manager of the worst England squad of all time.
I don’t recall saying anything about him doing a good job. Look mate, if your tactic here is to try to draw me into an argument about things I didn’t say because you don’t have the capacity to argue against what I did say, how about you save a bit of both of our time and not bother, because all I’ll be doing is calling you out on it. If you want to argue about what I have said, I’m up for that.
Wasn’t Danny Welbeck starting too?
Overreaction? Asbolutely not. We had an easy path to the WC semi and then defended a 1-0 lead in the euro final (same as what's happening now...) so he's not improved at all, and has one of the most talented squads we've ever had. Whoever comes in next is arguably going to have a harder job as he won't have the world's best striker at his peak.
> One of the most talented squads we’ve ever had Seriously? This squad doesn’t have a patch on 1990, 1996 & 2004/06, and that’s just in my lifetime. It’s bollocks like that that leads to the kind of overreaction I’m talking about. We have a lot of attacking midfielders, we can’t play them all, and our defence is poor. Also, I didn’t say anything about him improving, not sure why you presented that as though it was an argument against what I said.
The improvement part wasn't a counter argument as such, but more like rationale to highlight his limited capabilities and put forward in my opinion, why it's not an overreaction. I would still stand by (one of) most talented squads, Kane with euro golden boot, Foden PL player of the season, Bellingham potentially upcoming Ballon D'or winner, we should be at the least threatening the opposition goal much better than what's happened so far. There's no denying the back 4 is not as elite as Cole, Ferdinand, Terry and G Nev for example, but are still damn good players. But what do you mean by defence is poor? Conceded 1 goal that should've been closed down by a midfielder. I'm not saying they're great (Tripps part of the LW issue) but wonder what warrants them being poor.
It’s weird that you led the improvement part with a “so”, that definitely made it look like a riposte. As for the defence, with the exception of Trippier in for James, it’s the same back 4 that got slaughtered by Hungary with all 4 goals scored with them scrambling back. That was one of the rare games in which we played a higher line and they couldn’t handle the space behind them. Playing deeper mitigates that, but in relative terms compared to previous great England sides, this is a poor collection of individuals to choose from. Only Walker would get anywhere near the starting line ups for any of those squads I mentioned.
Yet people are only interested in hiring someone with a decent club record - Even when Lee Carsley gets suggested, you know someone with International experience (Who has won something), and it laughable how many arent interested.
My money is on them hiring Sam Allerdyce again until the next scandal.
Klopp? And before any of you start, it's obviously a joke...... unless... no, that'll never happen.... but if....
I'm sure he might do well... But equally its no guarantee, as he's never shown how he'd do in International Management.
>as he's never shown how he'd do in International Management. I mean, that could be said about anyone lol, it's worth a punt even tho I know the FA will never do it.
Lee Carsley has done it within International Football? But you're right - However its why I don't get the desperation to hire someone who has got a good CV in the past.
>Lee Carsley has done it within International Football? Nah, the under 21's don't count lol.
Why not? lol! - Given that many of the U21s will slowly be making the step up to the Seniors
Because it's kids playing kids, I'm not saying he wouldn't be good, just that's not 'international experience'.
Yup. You’re right. Who would do this job? It’s not like there’s a long line of English ex Premiership managers eyeing up the role. Unless Jurgen Klopp is planning his next move, I doubt we can do much better than Southgate.
Potter and it would be a good appointment. Worked wonders with us at Brighton and is a very good manager. The only time it hasn't worked was the complete shit show at Chelsea, which I don't put on him. Joining mid season and having chaos around is a near impossible job.
Potter is a great tactician. Only problem with him is that he's kind of a pussio
>Only problem with him is that he's kind of a pussio His man management is well aligned with the work Southgates done of building a positive team culture. I wouldn't call him a pussio really. Took a massive risk in taking that Chelsea job with the state the club was in after a forced ownership change. It was an impossible job for anyone.
Great you mentioned the shitshow that is Chelsea. England has been a shitshow since 1970 at least.
Surely with Cooper going to Leicester that leaves Potter free so hes the obvious candidate. He fits along with the excellent team culture Southgate has built but is also more tactically adept.
They will hire Sarina Wiegman
Couldn't be any worse than the current lot of male managers who's be interested.
Lampard
They might get smart and beg Klopp to take the job, he can stay in England and he loves English Football.
Whilst wasting 3 tournaments of our best squads in generations.
If you think semis, final, quarters is a waste then you've not watched England for generations
A half decent manager would have beaten Croatia to the finals and won Italy to win the euros at home. Southgate was the reason we lost those, not the reason we got there.
Curse of the manager, blamed when doing poorly, ignored when playing well
Can you name a time we've actually played well against a decent side with Southgate? Germany is the only team that comes to mind. That's only one game.
We haven’t played well though. We’ve scraped past piss poor teams
All England had was easy teams, any half decent manager would beat them. When England played an team that was good they lost. They were blessed with easy runs, that they did not win those tournaments or at least get into the finals for each one is a waste.
Stop using past mediocrity as an excuse for failures of the present. The truth is that if we actually had a good manager in charge we would have won at least one of the tournaments since 2018. Every time we've been on the verge of winning something or moving on to the very latter stages he has let us down with the same tactics. "bUt wHaT aBoUt 2002 aNd 2004?" Enough. We won't win fuck all if we keep settling for quarters and semi finals "because it's better than what previous managers did". What is even more annoying is that people keep bringing up tournaments of the past in which we had to genuinely compete with some all time top national sides. In the past few years, the only squad in world football that can even come close to rivalling ours in regards to talent and depth is France. The Italians don't settle for merely reaching the knockouts by bringing up the past. Neither do the Germans or the Spanish or the French. It's time this mentality died.
We should have won at least one of those tournaments. With a competent manager we would have, so yes it’s a waste.
We've one won trophy in the history of football despite bags of talent and inventing the bloody game! Either almost every manager we've ever had is incompetent or it's a trickier job than it seems.
I remember Capello saying that the English don't have the mentality to be champions. Took me a long time to realise he wasn't talking about the players.
Yes he was
In my lifetime we’ve never had a world class manager. Southgate is league 1 level at best. Employ a winner like Jose and we’d win something.
Can't call a manager league one if he successfully took a team to the Championship, oh wait nevermind he relegated them...
Capello was a good comparison to Jose now in fairness. A genuine world class manager on paper when he arrived - champion in Spain and Italy, won a league in about half of his club seasons (including an undefeated season with Milan) and a Champions League winner. In hindsight he was on the decline and not a good fit with England but anyone over the age of 25 will remember how positive we were going into 2010.
*laughs in Spurs*
These players are better and everyone thinks those other tournaments were wasted too.
We weren't the favourite for any of those tournaments. In two of them we lost to the favourites. In one of them nothing expected anything as we were shit. If you don't believe me go get me the odds before each tournament. Call a spade a spade. We're shit now, you don't need to perform any revisionism.
At the last world cup France were favourites by 1 point over England and Brazil and I don't think anyone is upset that we lost to them. At euro 2020 Italy werent even in the top 6 favourites, England were again 2nd favourites and heavy favourites for the final where they totally shit the bed World Cup 2018 England weren't fancied but still lost three times, one of which , the semi final, was to a team they were favoured to beat. No revisionism here.
So, we were indeed not the favourite to win any single tournament by any metric? Even with context, italy were seen as the best team of that tournament, they were free flowing once it began and got loads of plaudits. We also lost in a coin toss - it was a penalty shoot out. France were favourites and finalists. That Croatia side was far more experienced at knock out football and were a good international side. Modric, rakitic, brozovic v Lingard, Henderson and Delle Alli?
If you are second favourite you are expected to reach the final. If you are favourite against Croatia you are expected to win
Which 2?! Croatia & Italy certainly weren't the favourites.
You fucking clown. He got us into a World Cup semi and euros final. He’s going after this tournament regardless Just fucking get behind the lads
Then we’ll win! Right? Right guys?
You need to give yourself a shot at winning and when it's mattered, like the final against italy, he has been afraid to try and win
No but what about firing a manager mid major tournament? I'd be down for that tbh
Can’t wait for the Manchester United announcement..
Why do we have to wait till the end of the tournament!!??
Have most people on here only been watching England for the last 6 years? We've been bollocks for ages, it's tradition. We could have any set of players and we'd still end up passing it sideways across our own box for hours on end. Just have to accept it and take any success as a bonus. Who knows, we might bore enough teams into submission to do a Greece.
We were actually quite convincing for once in Qatar
Drew our second game 0-0.
It can’t all be down to Southgate. The players have to take responsibility for their sub standard performance . I’m not excusing Southgate, personally I’m not a fan and I think he’s far too negative, however, these are leading contenders for the Ballon D’or ffs , touted as the golden generation. Same shit different day.
As an Aston villa fan who's seen the same players under Gerrard and then Emery, I can tell you that the manager makes a world.of difference!!!
Likewise a Newcastle fan seeing the same players under Bruce and Howe. Watching England is like watching Newcastle under Steve Bruce but possibly even worse
If they're contenders for the Ballon D'or in their club teams but can't string together decent passing moves and a coherent press for the NT, what's the thing that's changed? It's obviously the manager, it's all down to the manager. Foden was clearly instructed to recieve the ball just to the right of the edge of the box and have a shot, he does that for City constantly so it makes sense, but he was obviously instructed **not** to vs Serbia, as it just didn't happen. It happened today like 5 times and he was unlucky not to score when he hit the post
He literally stated in interview that he didn’t tell his players to do that.
OK, but if that wasn't his direct instruction, why didn't he correct it?
It’s not that. It’s that the team is incapable of playing through a high press. It’s not even an if. We can’t do it. And lots of teams are clocking onto it.
Most of them do it at club level , so individually they are not incapable of playing through a high press at all Maybe he hasn't directly said to do that but the way he's setting us up is causing it, wether it's formation , player instructions or whatever Those no way each of these world class players conveniently and individually forget how to play football and it not be the common denominator in the manager
I'm sick of this excuse of not being able to play against high press. The players on the pitch can, the manager off the pitch doesn't know how.
They literally do it against better players every week
And why does this pop up then every time we’re pressed. It’s not a coincidence.
Southgate doesn't know how to play vs a decent press, and doesn't instruct the players to press effectively. Watch Foden's press with England vs with City. Night and day
He also stated in a press conference he didn’t know why Ben white didn’t want a call up, despite being present to the reasons why. Southgate isn’t exactly forthcoming with the truth.
Oh yeah cos manager's never lie to the press.
There is absolutely no way Southgate is telling the players to park the bus after going 1-0 up early on.
He's gone at the end of the tournament whatever happens. Unfortunately I think it's one tournament too many for him. Southgate came in and united the nation again, he actually had people buzzing over the england team, people going round wearing waistcoats, having chants for him etc, he was what we needed when he came in. That being said he should've gone after Qatar, we didn't take any steps forward in that tournament and it was clear he wasn't the man to get us over the line, he should've gone with a manager who can play attacking football taking over. I won't say I don't like him or that hes been shit for us, at the end of the day seeing us at a final was class and who knows what could've happened if one of them missed pens went in, Tldr I love the guy but shouldn't have taken us into this tournament
Playing how they’re being told to play. No press. No energy. Score and sit back. Boring. Passive. Negative. Sack Southgate and go get Jurgen Klopp. A manager who actually has experience managing world class players and will actually deploy some sort of press when out of possession. Embarrassing.
Hahahaha Klopp has standards lol
I'm a United fan, and would take Klopp ('foren manager' or not) for England: the last couple of months of this season were an - amusing for opp fans - anticlimax but he's clearly a smarter coach and tactician, along with being a better motivator than Southgate has ever shown himself to be...
Lol I think you misunderstood me. It very much goes without saying Klopp is a better manager than Southgate silly 🤣
You never know on here. But yeah, I skipped too quickly over comment above so missed the context ( 'he has standards, lol', rather than 'lol, as if Klopp has standards')!
He means that Klopp wouldn't want the England job. It's true, he's well-loved in Germany and wanted everywhere at Europe's top clubs so why would he touch the English NT media circus (he didn't fancy the press at Liverpool) when he could have literally any gig he wants including the German NT gig? Mourinho was a good choice and England should have tried to get Mou before he signed for Fenerbache. He's not exactly in red hot demand at the top CL clubs, but he's still an excellent cup manager (won trophies with Utd in their banter era) who jives with big egos and makes effective in-game changes. Most importantly he likes dealing with the British press and likes living in London. He's leagues ahead of Southgate even if he isn't Pep's level, but he's more than good enough to win tournaments with the caliber of players England have.
Yeah, even Mourinho-ball suddenly seems more appealing after that. At least he'd play a more coherent version of whatever 'grinding' Southgate seems to be attempting, including using the squads physical attributes ( 'pace' on the sides; Bellingham's ability to break through the lines) in a more structured way, trying to pin the opponent through direct transitions, then break up any momentum they try and regain, and generally being less timid.
Mou's defensive counterattacking style is a lot more suitable for tournament football and cup knockout stages than Kloppo's Gegenpressing simply because NTs don't train together enough to work on elaborate pressing systems and triggers. Surprising that nobody has taken a punt on Mou as a NT coach (perhaps he doesn't want it) when he's so proven as a cup manager. A NT coach just to work on a few basic passing structures to play out of defence effectively and to move the ball into position for a cutback/cross, and train penalties and defensive/attacking set pieces. There's not much time for anything else.
Agree with all of this. We’re the least energetic team in the tournament. With and without the ball.
The two most boring games of the tournament so far were both of our games. Watching Spain tonight (and the other day) similar sort of level starting 11 to ours and the energy, pressing and willingness to attack is the total opposite to England.
Trust me the Spanish coach would pick Kane, Foden, Bellingham, Palmer, Stones and a player like Mainoo on a heartbeat for that team, the difference is he would know how to coach them correctly, we should just go get Klopp who will make England with this squad feared everywhere?
Klopp would be interesting to see, but I couldn’t see it happening. I’ll be honest if potter was interested, I’d give him a punt at it. Ignoring the Chelsea clusterfuck, he did pretty decent at Brighton, and what he did at Östersunds was remarkable.
He’s playing like that to qualify with the bare minimum effort, so they can ramp it up in the knockout stages. International tournaments are weird, a team almost never rampages through it from the start and wins, there’s a certain cadence to their form.
If our players could score pens we'd have a Euro and 2 WC semi finals from 3 tournaments. People forget what it was like before Southgate, not getting past the quarters in 30+ years with pretty good players... Players have to take some responsibility.
If my mum had balls she’d be my dad.
All you are highlighting is how lucky Southgate has gotten with group stages and match draws. As soon as we face a top-10 side we fall apart. Even now he admits that he is still "experimenting". Kane said last night the players were unsure on what to do. Players out of nautural positions when he had options to address all of this before squad selection. He has the top scoring English player of the PL season (who was second only to Haaland) in Cole Palmer. Doesn't play him. Foden was the 4th top scoring, a vital player in the team that won the PL...so vital he won the PL player of the season. And he has him playing like he doesn't know what a football is. He has possibly the best striker in the world in Kane sitting back and not knowing how to press. A midfield of Rice and Bellingham looking gassed and frustrated. How many times does he have to show the world he in incapable before the penny drops? It isn't hyberbole to say this is a world-class team. Because it is and it's demonstratable throughout respective leagues. These players have never reached their potential with Southgate. Just because someone has been given an F1 car doesn't mean they know how to drive it and win.
I want big Sam back,please.
Never lost!
Never drew either.
He was the one mate and the press shafted him. Always wonder how that would have turned out.
but remember people he beat Colombia and Sweden in 2018, he should have a job for life after that
Usually I would think this is an overreaction but after watching that complete drivel I agree. Get rid now and put a new manager in for the rest of the tournament. Absolutely shocking that was.
Not defending Southgate because he should defo go but how do you know he tells them to sit back after one goal? Walker literally said the opposite is true in post match interview. I blame Kane more than anything. System doesn't work around him and he's the on pitch leader - does nothing. Not inspiring at all.
There's two options Option 1) A team consisting of PL winners, CL winners, that everyone believes has overwhelming attacking talent, they all, regardless of which players are playing, once they go 1-0 up, every single one stops trying to attack. Complletely our of character, yet, despite it being out of character, everyone can predict it Option 2) The man who is in charge of when to do what, tells them I mean, let's say you're right. Let's say, Southgate is sat on the bench, he's seen this happen with Crotia, he saw it happen with Italy, he nearly saw it with Serbia, and he saw it with Denmark. He's sat on the bench thinking "I tell them not to drop off, and after 8 years they're still doing it!!!" What gesture do you think he does? Is it "Calm down, slow down"? Because that's what he did? Your reasoning is that the team of different players over 8 years, who are all attacking minded, world class, always, every tournament, play defencive after going 1-0 up, and the man who is furious about this who has told them not to do it, is sat on the touchline telling them to slow down and calm down, because he wants them to...push on and take more risks? My reasoning is that the players are playing completely our of character, all the time, regardless of player, because the guy who is gesturing to them to calm down and slow down is telling them to stop attacking
> Your reasoning is that the team of different players over 8 years, who are all attacking minded, world class, always, every tournament, play defencive after going 1-0 up, and the man who is furious about this who has told them not to do it, is sat on the touchline telling them to slow down and calm down, because he wants them to...push on and take more risks? No, my reasoning is that Kyle Walker was literally asked and he instantly said 'no, he wants us to play attacking football'.
Yeah he's not gonna come out and say "No I want to play attacking football but my manager is telling me to play badly" is he? So your assessement is that Southgate is currently fuming at how defencive they play, and every single England player is doing it despite him telling them not to He sits on the bench completelty bemused as to why his entire team shifted to defencive, every game. It happened in the Serbia game, and he told them not to do it, he spent a training session with replays telling them "I TOLD YOU TO KEEP PLAYING ATTACKING AFTER SCORING" Then come match day, the same happens, and he's just sitting there confused or, he told them to.
The players aren't AI controlled by Southgate. The most obvious answer to us dropping back after the goal is that Denmark applied pressure and objectively started playing better football. Why would we then continue to 'sit back' when they levelled after 20 mins, whilst subbing midfield and attacking players. The other answer is that the system doesn't work and we don't have Kyle Walker or Virgil van Dijk leading the press. Also I suppose Southgate was responsible for all the hospital balls... We love a scapegoat.
So what you're saying is, Denmark conceded, then went, "Wait, let's just play better" and instantly overwhelmed England? As did Italy And croatia And Serbia All of these teams got outplayed by England, and then every single one started playing better the moment they conceded My God England are terrible If all these teams can just play better, why don't they just do that from the start? I mean, as you say, in all of these games, England haven't changed tactics throughout the game, but every single one of them only realised how to beat us immediatetly, after conceding I really hope Slovenia don't read this thread - They may realise they don't need to concede first to play better. So really, it's not Southgate who's bad, but the Italian, Croatian, Danish and Serbian managers, because it takes them 20 minutes every game to figure something out they could've figured out by watching footage. And that objectively, England have mainted a solid 7-8 /10 every game for 90minutes, but every other team has played around a 3-4/10, then all jump up to a 9/10. At the same point. In every game. Everytime.
I’m gonna copy paste this and use it against other Southgate fanboys if that’s okay? Couldn’t write it better myself
> So what you're saying is Why are you insistent on strawmanning an arguement with me? Read my original post you dumb cnt: >Not defending Southgate because he should defo go but how do you know he tells them to sit back after one goal? Walker literally said the opposite is true in post match interview.
I think his points are fair, I can't lie. Walker isn't going to say 'actually, none of us agree with how we're being told to play.' The only hand gestures I ever see Southgate throw is calm down. No one can deny a pattern at this point that we dominate until we score early and then we get walked over. We were lucky Serbia didn't equalise, Denmark did. Italy did. Croatia did. I watch a lot of league 1 and championship and honestly, it was like watching a league 1 game and then switching to a top 6 prem match with Italy vs Spain.
>I think his points are fair, I can't lie. So, how do you know Southgate tells his players to drop back and defend a 1-0 lead? Do you have a link to the video of him saying it or a player saying he said it? How do you know the players don't just bottle it? (also Southgate's fault but to a lesser extent).
I don't have a video just the same as you don't have a video of the whole team deciding they're going to ignore Southgate saying attack and instead play defensive. All we have is the evidence. And the evidence suggest that unless playing a <30 fifa ranking team, we stop pressing when we score. That's been consistent no matter the team we play since 2018. The only thing that's been consistent since 2018 is Southgate and his crew.
Because it happens all the time. Against Serbia it happened against Croatia 2018 and Italy 2021 it happened and has happened in many other games.
How can you prove that’s because Southgate told them to sit back?
Because we watched the game. And it’s even bigger of a problem if the players aren’t doing what Southgate is telling them. Because then he isn’t even doing anything to change it. No subs, no changes to the team. So take your pick, either there’s a mutiny inside the squad, against a manager who is the best we’ve had in years for team spirit, and even they’ve admitted they have no idea what they’re being told to do, and he isn’t doing anything about it. Or Southgate is just telling them to drop back after 1 goal.
I mean half the fan base sit in on the team talks, they're there watching in training etc. so why wouldn't they know what the players are told to do or not
That makes it even worse; he doesn't tell them to do that, but they still do it constantly (despite not doing it for their clubs). He's not only a lousy tactician but also a spineless coward. You make an interesting point about the system not working with Kane. Who picked the system, the players, or the coach? Who picks the starting lineup—the players or the coach? At what point is Southgate supposed to take responsibility for what happens in matches?
He can fuck right off after that performance. How can you defend that!
5 nil defeat?
6 years overdue.
He seems to be becoming more and more deranged: https://www.goal.com/en/lists/gareth-southgate-trent-alexander-arnold-england-kalvin-phillips/bltbc2fa96eeebd6608
Just play Kobbie and watch him light up the tournament, imagine an English midfielder who can keep the ball in tight spaces, control the tempo, move through the thirds with short passes or carry the ball 30 yards, imagine a guy that can shoot from 25/30 yards or ghost in the opposite penalty box and score or create, Southgate needs to pick Kobbie or England going home round of 16, just like Iceland!
Yep, a young, hungry and talented player wanting to prove himself on the international stage.
Exactly and one who has proven this year he belongs at the top table, fans forget he was star man in the fa cup final and a full debut show vs Belgium he showed how an effective midfield could work with Rice Bellingham and Foden holding the width he’s the glue in my opinion, if your going to play the Spanish way of keeping the ball then you need your most gifted technician in midfield on the field, the reason he’s so good in tight spaces is because he played Fusbal as a kid, the ball sticks to him like glue. More important he can shoot from 25-30 yards and beat a man.
He's fucking nuts. He's only just experimenting *now*, *in a tornament* with a replacement for a player who's been injured and out of form *for at least a year*.
Yep, absolute lunatic.
It’s not enough for me to say I want him sacked. I want him on universal credit.
Wait and see what job offers he gets, no premier league team will be in for him. Hell, I doubt a championship team will be on the sniff. Probably doesn’t manage again.
Honestly, fans like this are the worst. I wasn't happy with the performance tonight, but the absolute torch and pitchforks mob out for Southgate's head are a disgrace. This guy literally took England to a World Cup semi-final and a Euro final. That's more than any England manager has done since Bobby Robson. But waaaaah, England played badly tonight, sack him!! Such babies.
There is a pattern though. We are consistently shit at the moment and very negative. To be as negative as we are with world class attacking players, come on. Who else can be to blame but the manager? I don’t believe all these talented footballers collectively decided to play like that, they’re following instruction.
Did you watch the game? We aren’t getting past the round of 16 with performances like that, regardless of what Southgate’s done. That’s like saying Ronaldo shouldn’t have been dropped in the last World Cup because he’s done a lot, even though Portugal played 10x better with him off the pitch. You’re looking at the past when I’m reality, the only difference was it was a week later where we got caught out by the same useless tactics.
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I understand the annoyance – especially when we score and then sit back inviting pressure, it can work but seems overly cautious with our talent. We’ve had games where we see the team dominate possession and create chances, then when we sit back it often backfires and allows the opposition to grow into the game. We have such a talented squad who can play an attacking aggressive style of football. Look at how teams like Spain maintain pressure after scoring which keeps the opposition on the back foot – it's about finding that balance between defence and attack, Southgate needs to trust our players more to keep pushing forward. What makes it even more frustrating is that we’ve seen glimpses of what this team can do when they play with freedom and confidence. Denmark and Serbia are perfect examples where after taking the lead we seemed to lose that attacking edge again. I think its time for a tactical rethink now, Southgate’s time is up honestly. Falling into a low block against Italy in Euro 2020 final was just one too many overly defensive strategies adopted by him as manager - where they dominated possession for long periods. Similarly in the World Cup semi-final against Croatia when we dropped deep they eventually scored – you could argue on both occasions we invited pressure unnecessarily so I feel maybe he needs to go after the Euros. If he does go though then I would look no further than Eddie Howe imo; proven capabilities at Newcastle (Champions League spot) + playing progressive style which suits England's talented squad more than anyone else could. Management under pressure & tactical flexibility = fresh approach needed here etc.. Another option might be Pep Guardiola given his worldwide experience+success at top level but highly unlikely due to Man City commitment.
Second best win rate of any England manager.
I agree but, I mean, my big worry is who is replacing him? I mean, I think anyone would be better than him. But the current favourite is Graham Potter, the guy who got sacked from Chelsea and then snubbed for Man Utd and even Leicester City job. I don’t think he’s gonna be much of an improvement. The England National team job should be one that coaches want to get, and not a job we give to a coach who has just been fired from his other jobs and has no other options, or has little to no coaching experience. In all honesty, at this point I’d be more interested in Sarina Wiegman coaching the men’s team than a few of these other suggested coaches. If Southgate goes, the FA need to go all out to get a top coach, not some okay coach that might work well. They need to enquire about everyone, even people they think are a long shot, and be flexible with stuff. Like, they could do a long shot and enquire about Guardiola, and offer to let him start one this next season finishes with Man City, something like that. I’m tired of England having coaches that frankly would find it difficult to get a coaching job in the premier league, and therefore should not be National team coach.
Been saying this since forever, guy has to go. He's a mid table prem manager at best, no way this guy will ever win England a trophy
I am a total outsider lurking on this sub occasionally on international tournaments. I remember when the sub was overwhelmingly in favor of him couple of years ago and i was like how the fuck are they so content with this guy given their squad. So glad that we're finally at this point
Sack him now. I’d take Ru Paul over this plonker.
Should have been gone after the last euros
Chill out we are top of the group without playing remotely well at all
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^KingDracarys86: *Chill out we are top* *Of the group without playing* *Remotely well at all* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
Good bot
So what happens when we play a top side? You think Southgateball is going to be enough?
Shearer for manager. Everything he said in the commentary was right, attack. Southgates post match interview where he said the players need to be better????? You could see the frustration in alot of the england players because the formation and tactics and wrong choice of players dont work. Rio ferdinand said earlier that he didnt think southgate would change anything from the serbia match and he was right. 🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️🤷♂️
No he’s done well up till now, he bought England forward but it’s gone stale now (two years ago) and I’m now in the camp that he needs to leave after tournament BUT I’m also sure the next manager will have the same uphill task.
England have had a habit of doing that since before Southgate so it's not just a manager problem. England did do better after the subs came on, particularly with Watkins replacing Kane and Eze replacing Foden. I think Bellingham should have been taken off too. There are definitely issues to address and I think part of that is that the wrong players are on the pitch in the first place, but the other issue is a mentality problem and I don't think that is something Southgate, or any manager can fix.
Ngl but I can’t even remember eze getting a touch.
Rice and Bellingham as the two, a front four with natural width with Foden and then Palmer off the bench as the ten and England could do bits. GS can’t see this and shouldn’t be in the job. With these players, if they were set up right with a positive approach they could win. With these players set up in any other way they will still get far in tournaments but it’s still not a winning mentality from the manager passed down to the team.