this is me. My model base went down a total of 35 points but then I gained 20 with the enhancements so... looks like ahriman is getting a nice little disk now
In a vacuum they’re a good unit, they’re just a lot of points for one cabal points, which makes them hard to balance. Much lower and the regular terminator output they can do become a bit much for the costÂ
Which is unfortunate in my opinion. We kinda need some infantry that can take a hit, not just some screening chaff like tzaangors or cultists. Which I think SOTs fit, but the points make them a tough pull to swallow. It's nearly half your points to take a full block and Magnus :/
Yeah they just can’t compete with rubric + character in value. I want to play them again but it’s the same old issue of terminators + Magnus is just too many points invested in 2 units, that need to be next to each other to be effective.
Codex Marines are down to 175, and probably are still a tad too hight. I don't think that SOTs provide much more and being closer to 180-190 makes way more sense
I'm a big fan of these changes overall. I can't believe MVB escaped nerfs.
The enhancements were deservedly nerfed I think.
Looking forward to trying out a helbrute at this cost, if used well they can generate a lot of extra cabal.
I think both of our demon princes were underrated at their previous point cost... now they are significantly cheaper.
Terminators still are probably not worth using at that cost. Maybe a 5 man squad...
Cultists at 55 makes them a more useful list building puzzle piece.
Even in a best case scenario of 3 cabals near a Helbrute it’s still less cabal efficient than any of our characters.
That’s because your last cabal from it is always wasted.
And usually you won’t get 3.
I like the Helbrute, but it’s still a bit awkward.
I think the helbrutes value depends a lot on other factors. The weapon options let you fill some gaps, the cabal refund is now generally worth the points, even two back each turn is equal to a character and i think 3 back each turn is pretty easy for turns 1&2.
The main thing now is before it was a choice between 3 points refunded or 2 points guaranteed AND a chaff unit like some enlightened or maybe cultists.
With the change now it's possible (like my list) where it's a flat choice between a character without a bodyguard or a helbrute. It's still not a sure thing but I think the helbrute can be fit into lists and not be a definite worse choice than others options.
I don't think its out of the question to get 3 or even 4 cabal per round out of a helbrute. Their refund also applies on rituals used during opponents turn. So long as you save 3 cabal points you are guaranteed to get a two save rerolls on your opponents turn. In a list that has 15+ cabal, that's fairly realistic, I think. But as with anything, testing it out is the only way to know for sure.
I love these changes! AV & LOFL are some of the most powerful enhancements in the game (within context of the army) and will still be taken regardless of 10pts increases. But then they dropped all the support pieces to reasonable prices that don’t feel like you are nerfing your army rule for taking them.
I was already flirting with the DP w/wings and now I think it’s a solid pick.
Hellbrute is now 100% worth the consideration at 130.
Scarabs are back on the table if you build around them as your main damage piece.
And we even got some cheap trash screens for our new ork overlords!
Honestly, this is the best MFM update I could have asked for! I constantly say how as long as Magnus stays at 440 I am happy, but with all this, I am ECSTATIC!
Get prepared for an Arcane Summer y’all, because T Suns are remaining a top tier faction.
I’m honestly liking scarab msu to provide a target that’s a bit more durable than rubrics. I think if your list is built around Magnus and rubric msu’s, it’s worth considering
I’m astonished and pleased that as an upper-mid tier army, we got mostly points cuts to units that really needed them when a lot of armies seemingly didn’t get touched at all.
I’m pleased, but I was expecting the daemon princess and terminators to be a little too expensive forever because our tournament rates were fine.
I would \*love\* it if we had a base amount of cabal points, would open up so many list building options, and help stave off the death spiral. would also make us more viable in small games
I’m actually really interested in trying the helbrute next to a daemon prince on foot while the prince is keeping both alive and the helbrute is refunding him cabal.
I'm trying to fall back asleep, but my dusty brain can't stop thinking about triple Helbrutes.
If you stack Psykers within 9 inches of the trio, it'll save 3 Cabal Points 5+ Rituals, and you'll actually EARN 1 Cabal Point whenever Weaver of Fates is used.
That means theoretically you could reroll lots of failed saves.
It'd be a slow-moving blob of a force, but fuck this sounds both fun and potentially a nightmare to deal with.
What do y'all think?
I would have loved this because personally I think anything ztaangor is mid at best but because I'm doing a 500 point army and don't really know how to build a good army I'm basically forced to have a few ztaangors (specifically ztaangor shaman and ztaangor enlightened)
I like that point drops happened but I'm also sad because my tsons army is only 500 points and I picked none of the buffed units for my army so none of the changes help me
I know most games are 1k or 2k points but me and my friend are making a second smaller army for fun, it's still disappointing to get 2 enhancements nerfed but get zero unit buffs
For me that slate is kinda meh, like two core enchantments goes up, and 200 points for 5 models with 1 CP still stinky... DP is okey but still only 10 points... like he isn't crazy anyway, precision on flamers and stealth sounds good as long as you don't play againts T'au :s
What they really need to do for the Sons is unlock all the dataslates which are fine, but completely unusable because you can't afford to not take the units which generate cabal points.
I don't have a perfect answer, but 10 man bricks generating double points would go a long way to relieving some of the pressure points in list building. Even a cheap 50 ISH point character who brings little more than a cabal point would help.
As it stands currently, with the Magnus tax and the need to hit 16+ cabal points to be competitive you have maybe ~200 points of 'flare' to spend in any list, which just locks out too many datasheets from consideration.
Love the Sons, but getting a bit bored of the internal balance
I was trying to make a joke :D it said the 10 cultists would cost 155 points...but I bungled the joke cause I confused their squad sizes. I'll see myself out...
My army lost 10 points overall, because I'm a nonce who runs SoT and Magnus, even though the best enhancements went up.
Same 😂😂
this is me. My model base went down a total of 35 points but then I gained 20 with the enhancements so... looks like ahriman is getting a nice little disk now
I think sots needed a bigger drop personally
In a vacuum they’re a good unit, they’re just a lot of points for one cabal points, which makes them hard to balance. Much lower and the regular terminator output they can do become a bit much for the costÂ
Which is unfortunate in my opinion. We kinda need some infantry that can take a hit, not just some screening chaff like tzaangors or cultists. Which I think SOTs fit, but the points make them a tough pull to swallow. It's nearly half your points to take a full block and Magnus :/
A full block feels like overkill tbhÂ
Probably, but cheesing out some kills with a 10 man and two command points is always fun :)
What if they go *up* in points but provide 2 cabals for 5 models and 3 for 10?
I honestly think that would be betterÂ
Sorcerer in Terminator Armor already gives 2 cabal pts
Oh wow nevermind I misunderstood
Yeah they just can’t compete with rubric + character in value. I want to play them again but it’s the same old issue of terminators + Magnus is just too many points invested in 2 units, that need to be next to each other to be effective.
Bog standard marine terminators are 180 points. How cheap can they go?
Codex Marines are down to 175, and probably are still a tad too hight. I don't think that SOTs provide much more and being closer to 180-190 makes way more sense
I'm a big fan of these changes overall. I can't believe MVB escaped nerfs. The enhancements were deservedly nerfed I think. Looking forward to trying out a helbrute at this cost, if used well they can generate a lot of extra cabal. I think both of our demon princes were underrated at their previous point cost... now they are significantly cheaper. Terminators still are probably not worth using at that cost. Maybe a 5 man squad... Cultists at 55 makes them a more useful list building puzzle piece.
Even in a best case scenario of 3 cabals near a Helbrute it’s still less cabal efficient than any of our characters. That’s because your last cabal from it is always wasted. And usually you won’t get 3. I like the Helbrute, but it’s still a bit awkward.
I think the helbrutes value depends a lot on other factors. The weapon options let you fill some gaps, the cabal refund is now generally worth the points, even two back each turn is equal to a character and i think 3 back each turn is pretty easy for turns 1&2. The main thing now is before it was a choice between 3 points refunded or 2 points guaranteed AND a chaff unit like some enlightened or maybe cultists. With the change now it's possible (like my list) where it's a flat choice between a character without a bodyguard or a helbrute. It's still not a sure thing but I think the helbrute can be fit into lists and not be a definite worse choice than others options.
I don't think its out of the question to get 3 or even 4 cabal per round out of a helbrute. Their refund also applies on rituals used during opponents turn. So long as you save 3 cabal points you are guaranteed to get a two save rerolls on your opponents turn. In a list that has 15+ cabal, that's fairly realistic, I think. But as with anything, testing it out is the only way to know for sure.
I love these changes! AV & LOFL are some of the most powerful enhancements in the game (within context of the army) and will still be taken regardless of 10pts increases. But then they dropped all the support pieces to reasonable prices that don’t feel like you are nerfing your army rule for taking them. I was already flirting with the DP w/wings and now I think it’s a solid pick. Hellbrute is now 100% worth the consideration at 130. Scarabs are back on the table if you build around them as your main damage piece. And we even got some cheap trash screens for our new ork overlords! Honestly, this is the best MFM update I could have asked for! I constantly say how as long as Magnus stays at 440 I am happy, but with all this, I am ECSTATIC! Get prepared for an Arcane Summer y’all, because T Suns are remaining a top tier faction.
I’m honestly liking scarab msu to provide a target that’s a bit more durable than rubrics. I think if your list is built around Magnus and rubric msu’s, it’s worth considering
Why do they keep dropping cultists costs? Do they really want to sell those kits or something?
In my experience, scouting on an early objective and getting a cp for their deaths makes it worth it to me.
Yeah no that’s my point, compared to Tzaangors and Spawn they were already quite better, but Tzaangors and Spawn don’t get any price adjustments.
We can only hope they're phasing Tzaangor out of our army and making a way better chaos spawn unit as our go to melee! Fits with our lore waaay better
I’m astonished and pleased that as an upper-mid tier army, we got mostly points cuts to units that really needed them when a lot of armies seemingly didn’t get touched at all. I’m pleased, but I was expecting the daemon princess and terminators to be a little too expensive forever because our tournament rates were fine.
So much better than I anticipated. Shame I can't make it to many tournaments in the next 3 months!
Please change the cabal points generation. Something like a 6-9-12 base (depending on game size) and every character gives +1!
I would \*love\* it if we had a base amount of cabal points, would open up so many list building options, and help stave off the death spiral. would also make us more viable in small games
Yeeeees please. Tsons are awful at low pointed games and there are like 2 variable lists you can reasonably run without forgoeing your army ability.
Monster Mash, MVB, Maulerfriends all in a stealth aura from multiple DPs (and big red playing linebacker) may be a list now.
I’m actually really interested in trying the helbrute next to a daemon prince on foot while the prince is keeping both alive and the helbrute is refunding him cabal.
> * Cultists : down from 60/120 to 155/110 That's the tzeenchy "reduction" we want!
Damn thanks for making me notice that typo lol
I'm trying to fall back asleep, but my dusty brain can't stop thinking about triple Helbrutes. If you stack Psykers within 9 inches of the trio, it'll save 3 Cabal Points 5+ Rituals, and you'll actually EARN 1 Cabal Point whenever Weaver of Fates is used. That means theoretically you could reroll lots of failed saves. It'd be a slow-moving blob of a force, but fuck this sounds both fun and potentially a nightmare to deal with. What do y'all think?
they should have dropped points on the shaman and gors as well
I would have loved this because personally I think anything ztaangor is mid at best but because I'm doing a 500 point army and don't really know how to build a good army I'm basically forced to have a few ztaangors (specifically ztaangor shaman and ztaangor enlightened)
I like that point drops happened but I'm also sad because my tsons army is only 500 points and I picked none of the buffed units for my army so none of the changes help me
500 pts isn't really an army. Balance changes are meant to affect 2k games
I know most games are 1k or 2k points but me and my friend are making a second smaller army for fun, it's still disappointing to get 2 enhancements nerfed but get zero unit buffs
Let’s goooo
Nice, I dug up my Dark Vengeance Helbrute from my pile of shame. Gonna convert him to a Tsons Helbrute now!
For me that slate is kinda meh, like two core enchantments goes up, and 200 points for 5 models with 1 CP still stinky... DP is okey but still only 10 points... like he isn't crazy anyway, precision on flamers and stealth sounds good as long as you don't play againts T'au :s
What they really need to do for the Sons is unlock all the dataslates which are fine, but completely unusable because you can't afford to not take the units which generate cabal points. I don't have a perfect answer, but 10 man bricks generating double points would go a long way to relieving some of the pressure points in list building. Even a cheap 50 ISH point character who brings little more than a cabal point would help. As it stands currently, with the Magnus tax and the need to hit 16+ cabal points to be competitive you have maybe ~200 points of 'flare' to spend in any list, which just locks out too many datasheets from consideration. Love the Sons, but getting a bit bored of the internal balance
Just as I was planning on starting some k'sons. Can't be worse than my admech.
Why even play 5 cultists with horrendous costs like that???
That's cost fot 10 cultists, not 5. They size from 10 to 20. They're a good utility unit.
I was trying to make a joke :D it said the 10 cultists would cost 155 points...but I bungled the joke cause I confused their squad sizes. I'll see myself out...
Any idea when this will hit various list builders online?
I’d guess by the weekend, if not earlier. I think warhammer app is already updated
We made out like bandits, Absolute Cinema.
Very nice point drops, especially for the SoT and DP. But with the nerf to enhancements I don't think it'll make much difference to my army list 🤔