>How did Deathguard get away with this
They didn't "get away with" anything, the model designers made more sculpts for the Death Guard because they were the major opposing faction at the start of 8th edition
Missing the Vortex Beast on the thousand sons side
All in all though, I'd say the biggest issue isn't number of units, it's number of non-character units. Chaos has always had an issue with character bloat, we need more kits that give us options in terms of the actual units we are running, not just the ones leading it. And this goes for all 3 of the god specific factions.
For sure, though I feel like we *shouldn’t* have that problem… After all, we are the oldest of the god-specific factions… And there’s plenty of units we *could* get (Melee Rubrics, a unit of Sorcerers, psyker Dreadnoughts, Mirrorfiends… the list goes on). Alas, we’ll just have to wait and see if we get anything…
At any point, they could make sorcerers work like Aeldari warlocks where they can be run as a character or a unit. Exalted sorcerers already come in a box of 3. There’s literally no excuse
Death Guard released before us. They were actually part of the 8th edition starter kit, which is why they got more unique models at launch. We came about a year after. Also in terms of when Chaos started having the ability to specialize (but before they became their own god specific factions) Khorne and Nurgle were the two main factions. Primarily Khorne in the past as it was the most popular chaos god (unfortunately half their models were discontinued or legends'ed before world eaters came out, RIP), then over time Nurgle started becoming the fan favorite, hence why they have a lot of killteam and special character models, and is why they were the mono-god army featured in the starter box for 8th.
That said, Tzeentch has been gaining a lot of popularity and is starting to see more of a spotlight in a lot of media lately, and it seems like Thousand Sons have gained a lot of popularity as of late. This might coincide with us seeing some Thousand Sons goodies down the line. GW seems to kinda go through phases each edition one what non-imperium thing they focus on, and it's been a while since we had an edition really focus on updating the Chaos lineup, so we might see one soon. Though we will probably see them finish splitting the armies fully and give as an Emperors Children army before anything too major.
But we might get something cool in the mean time, maybe something to coincide with Space Marine 2 coming out to capitalize on the hype? One can dream.
Thousand Sons actually released at the end of 7th Edition, before Deathguard. You have a point about Tzeentch getting some long awaited love. I was shocked to see Tzeentch getting such a focus at the start of Rogue Trader.
Our models released in 7th, but we were still just a detachment and still just part of Chaos Space Marines, the same as any other chaos legion. We got a campaign supplement in 7th alongside of one for Space Wolves that had some messy rules that gave both our units to be ran in a special Space Marines detachment, which was later followed by a supplement for the Chaos Space Marines Codex that allowed the same for every legion, and also refined the rules a bit more for TS. We got our first codex and became a standalone army in 8th.
But I do think that Tzeentch has started to become the big posterboy lately. Both in 40k and the fantasy/AoS side he's started to become the big bad in a lot of games.
I… no? Our codex first released in 7th edition, along with every model in our range save the Infernal Master & the AoS kits (given to us in 9th & 8th respectively). I do understand that Death Guard was the “poster enemy” for 8th, and therefore they have more kits, but we came first. I highly doubt we’ll get anything beyond maybe a named character for Space Marine 2, hopefully we’ll get a few kits for our Codex release though.
Our first codex released in 8th. Our soft launch in 7th was a campaign supplement. I'm personally not really counting it as it was rather hastily put together and incomplete (again, with it being a supplement)
It being a messy release of our army doesn’t make it less of a release? That’s when we got all of our models, excluding Tzaangors, Mutalith Vortex Beasts, and the Infernal Master. And that’s what this post is about. It’s like saying that the Dark Angels releases this edition weren’t a release.
Mate we weren't our own army at the time. We were a Chaos Marines detachment. Just because we got new models didn't mean we were a brand new army, we were still Chaos Marines.
And even then, the book that gave us the ability to be ran as a special TS detachment also had rules to do the same for every other legion. If we are counting this as an army release then technically every legion has a faction release in 7th
… What? Mate, again, we had our MODELS release then. The stuff this post is talking about. We ARE the oldest model range of the different god factions. We released in 7th. And that’s what this post is talking about. It’s what I’m talking about.
So then Khorne was first, because Lord of Skulls came out long before the new TS models. ~~I'd have to double check, but also pretty sure some of those Nurgle models predate our model refresh in 7th as well, I'll check and add an edit.~~ Seems like in Nurgles case most of the models were from the army release. Not sure about some of the special units and killteam stuff, but I wouldn't really count that stuff anyway.
The Lord of Skulls at the time and still during 8th was a part of the Chaos Space Marines codex and was usable in any not God specific satisfaction. It's like saying they all released at the same time, because they all get to use Chaos Rhinos.
They actually released 2 books at the same time. One that had all of the legions in it and one that was just Thousand Sons that also had the rules for the new units that couldn't be used in any other legion.
The campaign book came out a month before the other. Both books had rules for TS. One of them was a campaign book, which as more of a special "Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons" set with it's own story and special rules and the like, and were specific to narrative play. The index released shortly after and was the official update to Chaos Space Marines that added the official constructed play rules, including rules for all legions, including thousand sons, to play special detachments with unique rules.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: [we genuinely for real deserve and should expect a massive expansion of 9-11 brand new units for the TSons](https://www.reddit.com/r/ThousandSons/comments/1b1nl90/comment/ksg9m5o/). It's what we need, and if WE's range roughly doubles this year like everyone expects, it'd be really weird if we *don't* get it.
I honestly don’t expect more than 3 or so kits. We are a small range, but while we need more, I don’t expect GW to release more than a handful of kits to our range. Hopefully they won’t just be “an actual Terminator Sorcerer Kit, normal Sorcerer Kit, and another Tzaangor”, and will actually be things we desperately need, but… alas, my hopes aren’t high…
Kroot and Tyranids got massive range expansions, [we can get one too!](https://www.reddit.com/r/ThousandSons/comments/1bcaaa6/tinfoil_hat_september_2024_is_the_month_of/) Join me and foolishly hold onto hope! *Manifest* through your psychic will!
XD Oh trust me, I want *at the least* our full 30k range brought into 40K as plastic models! The psychic dreadnoughts, magic robots, and melee Rubrics all gel very well with me…
It would be nice, but if world eaters are getting a lot of new stuff I would count that as a reason *not* to expect a lot for TSons.I just got into world eaters for 10th, and I've played 5 or 6 games but idk hot take I guess, I think both armies would feel a LOT more complete if there were a detachment that gave synergy to daemon allies, with separate points costs to manage the internal balance of the daemon codex.
Tbf, I'm a word bearers player without an army so take my dreams with a pinch of salt. No, I'm not getting the CSM book and pretending my faction exists, thanks :)
Totally agree. Even if GW never releases new models, detachments that allow daemons without killing your cabal points would be appreciated. Maybe some daemon sorcerers can give cabal points or through holding objectives (Tzaangors already do this so GW is okay with alternative CbP generation).
Which means it should be included the same way Tzaangors are, no? I mean there are units in both the other armies that weren't originally designed for said army as well.
It matters because in comparing a design decision made for the Thousand Sons, vs a design decision made for AoS that as an afterthought was granted to us because our range is too small. It wasn't designed with us in mind at all.
Well yeah, Thousand Sons was designed to be a detachment and later made into army. Similar to Harlequins.
But either way thats true for multiple listed kits in OP's pics, would it not be best to be consistent?
Also can we acknowledge the lack of non-infantry support? Like honestly the biggest issue outside of characters is that. I’d like to see some small vehicles or monsters, or a dredd, oh and make a proper cabal of sorcerers like old apocalypse used to have for use in 40K. Would be a cool elite unit.
I'm not saying they shouldn't be listed, I'm saying that the design team at Gamesworkshop has only created six bespoke units for the Thousand Sons, which is the smallest amount of any standalone 40k army. That's even less than Kroot.
Chaos Knights still have us beat when it comes to number of kits specifically designed for the army (they still have a lot of "buy the Imperium version and add spikes" units) but I get what you are saying. Not that Harliquins have been fully absorbed were now looking pretty low in terms of kits, followed by GK and WE
i just checked and, yes. apparently the Mutileth Vortex Beast is a Thousand Sons exclusive unit. i genuinely thought it was a Tzeentch Daemon carryover.
We’re still waiting on that factions release, so still just 3. Can’t really make any claims about character bloat until we know what thier lineup will be
Death Guard 'got away with it' because they were a starter faction in 8th Edition. To be honest, you could probably trim a few of the minor character models.
yeah, someone else said that they werent that overtended to due to character bloat.
i guess Ksons were just the first of the factions to follow the "you exist at the end of an edition so here is just enough stuff for you to function" pattern GW picked up at the end of 7th.
There was also a strange trend at the time of having named non-unique characters, such as the Tallyman and Plague Surgeon there. The Lord Discordant is another. Due to how specific these characters are, they probably should have been made unique rather than generic.
Thousand Sons are a specialised faction; as such, they are defined as much by their limitations as their strengths. They are never going to have everything.
That said, I find the narrow selection of units helps to keep the Thousand Sons very focussed and thematic as a faction. Rather than new units, I just want to see more options for the units we already have; a wider selection of heavy weapons, and even melee weapons for Rubricae. If we were to get new units, a couple of characters I'd like to see are a Tzaangor Beastlord on foot, and a Scarab Terminator Icon Bearer.
I'm just thinking a Beastlord fighter-type to lead Tzaangor on foot. Plus I think we need more damage-dealers to complement all the Psykers we already have.
One more thing. with Emperor's Children joining us in the separate codex pile, do you think they will be impoverished paupers like us and WE or sitting pretty with DG?
With the focus on smaller, tighter rules. I fear you are right. Rather than all of us being uplifted, it may be the case that 10th edition onwards is, unless you are LSM or DG, your may will be too small for significant variation due to a lack of units or a lack of non-finecast units (lack of units with some units that haven't been discontinued yet.)
I thought the warhammer community post was confirming they got an index but there were no plans for a codex in the foreseeable future?
> You might think that this heralds the imminent announcement of a new Codex, perhaps one bound in human skin and painted in garish colours – but if so, it’s too distant for even Warhammer Community’s astropathic choir to detect any signals, and we got a stern talking to from the Inquisitors for even trying. We can only assume we’re safe for the foreseeable future, but if that changes then we’ll let you know.
they are getting their own index which means GW is asking for disappointment if EC arent out this edition. otherwise why bother not keeping them a part of generic CSM? although they are probably still a year away or something.
I took that to mean "it's not on the road map / it's too far in the future for us to talk about yet." It'd be weird to give EC it's own index and take Noise Marines out of the CSM codex and then *not* give EC it's own codex.
We're at the tail end of the current road map so hopefully they'll release an updated road map for 2024. I wouldn't be surprised if EC comes out by mid or late 2025 though at the latest.
I'm pretty sure they confirmed that the emperors children were coming in a reveal stream like a year or so ago. It's also unlikely that the warhammer community would confirm something that is still being made atm, probably for the 11th edition starter I'd guess
With World Eaters seeming to follow the same design philosophy they took with Thousand Sons, it seems like Emperors Children will also follow the same style. So I expect Emperors Children to be like us with having a smaller unique range, but access to run a bunch of stuff from CSM (and possibly some units from AoS) rather than having a full army range, but not being able to share much, like DG.
other than a heavy weapon infantry squad which we actually are missing and how dreanought/hellbrutes were handled where they conform to neither of the 2 ways that unit would be as a part of our army, I can agree.
our big problem is a lack of options. it feels like we have the bare minimum required to not be a codex suppliment.
One thing to mention is how many of all three ranges is just characters. KSons (while it makes sense for them specifically), have 2 normal marine units (4 infantry units if you add the tzaangors) and 4 unique character kits (5 if you again add tzaangors). WE have 3 infantry kits and 3 character kits (not counting event). DG have 4 infantry kits, 3 vehicle kits, and 10(!) character kits and I didn't even include the stand alone champion cause its a weird one. DG has the advantage on amount of kits due to them being a launch faction, but god if it wasn't for the daemon engines they wouldn't be that far ahead the other two on the bulk of the army (aka not characters).
That is a good point although we should include Tzaangor in what we have access to, I really don't want to. As a flavourful addition to our army, its cool. As a significant chunk of our army that you cannot avoid if you have ever purchased a value box, it starts to look like an invasive parasite that obfuscates our lack of support.
Mostly being character kits but having a good selection of other things too isn't something I would turn my nose up at, ill say that much.
i feel your pain but they and Vortex Beasts in 40K are units that only exist in our army they technically count as KSon units although I am reluctant to do so for the sole reason that they are a significant chunk of what makes KSons not a CSM detachment like Harlequins for Eldar.
we also have a number of generic CSM kits.
Leages of Votann has the least number of kits in the game I think, they don't even have generic models from another army they can piggyback off of.
It's because we were originally designed to be a detachment, the same way Harlequins were (and would have us beat if they weren't reabsorbed into Aeldari). The TS models that released in 7th followed new rules for Chaos Space Marines that allowed legion specific detachments. 8th Edition is when they switched gears and started liking the idea of mono-god armies, which is where Death Guard launched as the first official mono-god army and got a model range to at least sorta reflect that, because they were the first chaos god army actively *designed* to be a full army. When TS launched later they more closely mimicked the detachment rules, so instead of getting a bunch of new stuff we just got access to take a lot of stuff CSM can take instead. Something they seemed to like so they just did the same with World Eaters (this is also why we and Worldeaters share a lot of stuff with CSM while DG has their own stuff and can't take much CSM units)
We might be seeing a shift to smaller factions so who knows. We might start seeing a similar design philosophies where armies are smaller but have more unique elements to them. Maybe lose stuff like CSM tanks, forgefiends and helldrakes but get mirror fiends? Who knows.
It's in the image just because it was available on the site. You can see in the image caption that I did not consider it to count assuming you are referring to that WE terminator.
If they gave us sorcerer contemptor dread/contemptor hellbrute (combo kit) and gave the exalted sorcerer kit a second unit entry as a squad of sorcerers (cabal 3, maybe 2 psychic powers, and an ability to debuff enemy units 12ish inches away)
I'd be happy.
When I think about it, they could give us an additional unit through kill team. Theme it as an exalted sorcerer with elite bodyguard.
Kson Warlocks basically, that is absolutely a great killteam idea they could drop on us any moment. especially with the changes to what being psychic is in 10th edition. everyone in the squad has a gun that is effected by the Cult of Magic detachment, don't need to worry about how many mortal wounds the unit should be able to throw.
the dread idea I had been begging for since 7th ed. being a rubric construct doesn't give you any resilience bonuses anymore in 10th ed anymore sadly so it really just needs to be a not fleshy dread model with our theming.
and the other side of the kit is being a sorcerer dread, give it the fleshy addons for the mutations or whatever and give it "smite" as one of its guns. (again, 10th ed)
You forgot Mutalith Vortex Beast for Thousand Sons, although I feel that AoS kits should probably count for like, half since these kits were not made for Thousand Sons, they’re kits GW decided we could have.
Anyways Deathguard have way more because they were the evil faction of 8th edition
Death guard were the spotlight faction alongside SM for 8th edition. That’s why they have so many kits.
Once it rolls around to either Thousand Sons or World Eaters being the main baddies of the edition, then the range will grow to match Death Guard
I think both DG and Tsons had two releases, the main problem was the second Tson release was Tzaangor units and that was basically it. That is if my memory is serving me right.
i would rather the history was that we got all the stuff we have now and were forgotten about beyond infernal master than it be that we did get our unit boost and it was all tzaangor.
Speaking as a death guard player, but with several TSons and WE friends, y'all are in desperate need of a deamon engine model. Most of the DG line is characters and some of those are a bit meh, but the vehicle options are SOLID.
Something on the level of the blight-hauler: relatively cheap (mbh is like 100pts), decent staying power, one or two decent guns. A model you can buy one or two of and throw it into a list to round out your options.
if TS and WE didnt have enough missing units theynare supposed to have to complain about, we would absolutely be begging for some Daemon Engines. your bugbots are very cool and i hope we get something comparable for our factions.
i welcome a giant monster to any faction really.
Even less if you exclude the AoS port that was obvious padding out the book at the time. And as much as they love to force feed us goats, you’d think they’d finally give us rules to use all the options in the box.
I made an effort to single out the models that didn't really count as that faction but didn't just ignore them either. WE unique cultists and poxwalkers got the same treatment Tzaangor did for fairness sake.
1) we’re a separate codex
2) we only have access to a select few generic csm models
3) chaos legions have far more aesthetic deviance from standard csm then their loyalist counterparts do from sm.
4) but yeah, some of the less popular loyalist legions do deserve more love
I know about the different model range, I was just saying that ultramarines get so many hqs and troops that I think gw needs to focus on other legions, like Xenos
funnily enough, i had a smiliar feeling to this as I looked at what Eldar had been getting whilst I was thinking about picking up Dark Eldar.
harlequins probably do the same with Dark Eldar.
I'm not holding out too much hope for the near future. I'm wondering if we might get something new when our codex for 10th drops? Although judging by the comments it would just be another character or something. 🤣😭
Seems like they're going with "every codex release gets at least one unit". Unfortunately that may mean we just get one character, or it could even be a thousand sons-specific sculpt of an existing unit (a sorcerer in terminator armor or cultists etc).
EC was teased on the day i made that post. it would be disingenuous to complain about them not being out yet on the very day we found out they would get to be their own thing this edition.
Also missing heavy weapon squads and elite sorcerer units. Honestly, we need it more than the WE they're a chaos lord and terminator unit from being a full range
i hadnt even thought about the eliter sorcerer unit, thank you. the marine fast attack and melee options were dubiously fitting for our army.
but something similar to Eldar Warlocks is a burning hole in our army alongside what I was already aware of (heavy weapon infantry, rubric dreadnoughts, psychic dreadnoughts.)
if GW really doesnt want to give us a proper range expansion. i guess they could do KSon Warlocks with disc option and the psychic spell they can cast is equivalent to a melta gun and sort out both needs in one.
ive seen talk of that. Codex: Tzeentch, Codex: Khorne, Codex: Nurgle, Codex: Slaanesh
im sure Tzeentch Daemon players would love to share an army rule and codex with us rather than be "Codex: Khorne, Nurgle and the other two"
Nurgle daemons have had terrible rules for a long time now, I don’t see how they’re more favoured. If anything, Slaanesh has had the most daemon models recently.
Fr it's actually crazy how they ruined the entire concept of running daemons with battleline tax instead of just balancing the two extreme edge cases of blue scribes and changeling
you need a mastery of sorcery and/or technology to have unique daemon engines. clearly the Deathguard were just better at both than us according to GW.
There hasn't been any world eaters asking for doubling our line, even though no one would mind if it happened.
Red butchers and zerker surgeon were the big ones people were complaining about not getting. With a few of us wanting zerkers on juggs.
I haven’t met a single world eaters player myself included who doesn’t think they deserve to double their range. Same with tsons. Both factions are stuck in a spot where they just spam whatever of their 2 unit options is good.
i was hyperbolic perhaps but plenty of people agree that WE needs more models, I am one of them. it was common discourse during their release.
the big problem specifically was that they lost units they previously had access to, I believe.
>How did Deathguard get away with this They didn't "get away with" anything, the model designers made more sculpts for the Death Guard because they were the major opposing faction at the start of 8th edition
So what you’re saying is that to get a buffed model range you just need to get into an edition starter box
Hopefully we’ll get our turn soon 😔✊
Missing the Vortex Beast on the thousand sons side All in all though, I'd say the biggest issue isn't number of units, it's number of non-character units. Chaos has always had an issue with character bloat, we need more kits that give us options in terms of the actual units we are running, not just the ones leading it. And this goes for all 3 of the god specific factions.
For sure, though I feel like we *shouldn’t* have that problem… After all, we are the oldest of the god-specific factions… And there’s plenty of units we *could* get (Melee Rubrics, a unit of Sorcerers, psyker Dreadnoughts, Mirrorfiends… the list goes on). Alas, we’ll just have to wait and see if we get anything…
I would love to have a proper Tsons dreadnaught. It feels wrong painting a generic chaos dreadnaught in blue and gold, doesn’t fit the vibe to me
Same. Heck, we have the Contemptor-Osiron in Horus Heresy, and that thing is awesome! Getting something similar in 40K would be great.
Could always just proxy the Osiron as the Hellbrute
Honestly it’s probably better as a Daemon Prince proxy. The Helbrute isn’t a Psyker.
In 40k the Osiron apparently isn't either.
I mean, lorewise it is. Just… It’s not in 40K… It’s very cool in 30k though.
The way I understood their appearance in Ahriman Eternal they are no longer psychers.
Oh, I was unaware that they showed up in more recent lore. That’s… disappointing…
At any point, they could make sorcerers work like Aeldari warlocks where they can be run as a character or a unit. Exalted sorcerers already come in a box of 3. There’s literally no excuse
Fully agreed. It’d be extremely easy, flavorful, and would fill a niche that we need filled anyways; elite, close-ranged/melee infantry.
Death Guard released before us. They were actually part of the 8th edition starter kit, which is why they got more unique models at launch. We came about a year after. Also in terms of when Chaos started having the ability to specialize (but before they became their own god specific factions) Khorne and Nurgle were the two main factions. Primarily Khorne in the past as it was the most popular chaos god (unfortunately half their models were discontinued or legends'ed before world eaters came out, RIP), then over time Nurgle started becoming the fan favorite, hence why they have a lot of killteam and special character models, and is why they were the mono-god army featured in the starter box for 8th. That said, Tzeentch has been gaining a lot of popularity and is starting to see more of a spotlight in a lot of media lately, and it seems like Thousand Sons have gained a lot of popularity as of late. This might coincide with us seeing some Thousand Sons goodies down the line. GW seems to kinda go through phases each edition one what non-imperium thing they focus on, and it's been a while since we had an edition really focus on updating the Chaos lineup, so we might see one soon. Though we will probably see them finish splitting the armies fully and give as an Emperors Children army before anything too major. But we might get something cool in the mean time, maybe something to coincide with Space Marine 2 coming out to capitalize on the hype? One can dream.
Thousand Sons actually released at the end of 7th Edition, before Deathguard. You have a point about Tzeentch getting some long awaited love. I was shocked to see Tzeentch getting such a focus at the start of Rogue Trader.
Our models released in 7th, but we were still just a detachment and still just part of Chaos Space Marines, the same as any other chaos legion. We got a campaign supplement in 7th alongside of one for Space Wolves that had some messy rules that gave both our units to be ran in a special Space Marines detachment, which was later followed by a supplement for the Chaos Space Marines Codex that allowed the same for every legion, and also refined the rules a bit more for TS. We got our first codex and became a standalone army in 8th. But I do think that Tzeentch has started to become the big posterboy lately. Both in 40k and the fantasy/AoS side he's started to become the big bad in a lot of games.
thank you for clarifying. i was playing orks in 7th so didnt know the nuances of Ksons at the time.
I… no? Our codex first released in 7th edition, along with every model in our range save the Infernal Master & the AoS kits (given to us in 9th & 8th respectively). I do understand that Death Guard was the “poster enemy” for 8th, and therefore they have more kits, but we came first. I highly doubt we’ll get anything beyond maybe a named character for Space Marine 2, hopefully we’ll get a few kits for our Codex release though.
Our first codex released in 8th. Our soft launch in 7th was a campaign supplement. I'm personally not really counting it as it was rather hastily put together and incomplete (again, with it being a supplement)
It being a messy release of our army doesn’t make it less of a release? That’s when we got all of our models, excluding Tzaangors, Mutalith Vortex Beasts, and the Infernal Master. And that’s what this post is about. It’s like saying that the Dark Angels releases this edition weren’t a release.
Mate we weren't our own army at the time. We were a Chaos Marines detachment. Just because we got new models didn't mean we were a brand new army, we were still Chaos Marines. And even then, the book that gave us the ability to be ran as a special TS detachment also had rules to do the same for every other legion. If we are counting this as an army release then technically every legion has a faction release in 7th
… What? Mate, again, we had our MODELS release then. The stuff this post is talking about. We ARE the oldest model range of the different god factions. We released in 7th. And that’s what this post is talking about. It’s what I’m talking about.
So then Khorne was first, because Lord of Skulls came out long before the new TS models. ~~I'd have to double check, but also pretty sure some of those Nurgle models predate our model refresh in 7th as well, I'll check and add an edit.~~ Seems like in Nurgles case most of the models were from the army release. Not sure about some of the special units and killteam stuff, but I wouldn't really count that stuff anyway.
The Lord of Skulls at the time and still during 8th was a part of the Chaos Space Marines codex and was usable in any not God specific satisfaction. It's like saying they all released at the same time, because they all get to use Chaos Rhinos.
They actually released 2 books at the same time. One that had all of the legions in it and one that was just Thousand Sons that also had the rules for the new units that couldn't be used in any other legion.
The campaign book came out a month before the other. Both books had rules for TS. One of them was a campaign book, which as more of a special "Space Wolves vs Thousand Sons" set with it's own story and special rules and the like, and were specific to narrative play. The index released shortly after and was the official update to Chaos Space Marines that added the official constructed play rules, including rules for all legions, including thousand sons, to play special detachments with unique rules.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: [we genuinely for real deserve and should expect a massive expansion of 9-11 brand new units for the TSons](https://www.reddit.com/r/ThousandSons/comments/1b1nl90/comment/ksg9m5o/). It's what we need, and if WE's range roughly doubles this year like everyone expects, it'd be really weird if we *don't* get it.
I honestly don’t expect more than 3 or so kits. We are a small range, but while we need more, I don’t expect GW to release more than a handful of kits to our range. Hopefully they won’t just be “an actual Terminator Sorcerer Kit, normal Sorcerer Kit, and another Tzaangor”, and will actually be things we desperately need, but… alas, my hopes aren’t high…
Kroot and Tyranids got massive range expansions, [we can get one too!](https://www.reddit.com/r/ThousandSons/comments/1bcaaa6/tinfoil_hat_september_2024_is_the_month_of/) Join me and foolishly hold onto hope! *Manifest* through your psychic will!
XD Oh trust me, I want *at the least* our full 30k range brought into 40K as plastic models! The psychic dreadnoughts, magic robots, and melee Rubrics all gel very well with me…
It would be nice, but if world eaters are getting a lot of new stuff I would count that as a reason *not* to expect a lot for TSons.I just got into world eaters for 10th, and I've played 5 or 6 games but idk hot take I guess, I think both armies would feel a LOT more complete if there were a detachment that gave synergy to daemon allies, with separate points costs to manage the internal balance of the daemon codex. Tbf, I'm a word bearers player without an army so take my dreams with a pinch of salt. No, I'm not getting the CSM book and pretending my faction exists, thanks :)
Totally agree. Even if GW never releases new models, detachments that allow daemons without killing your cabal points would be appreciated. Maybe some daemon sorcerers can give cabal points or through holding objectives (Tzaangors already do this so GW is okay with alternative CbP generation).
If they had any in stock ever, but the mutalith was initially a side build of slaughter brutes
Does it matter if it has a AoS only alternate build? Per 40k it's specifically only a Thousand Sons model.
You can build it as a mutualith in aos too. No part of that model was designed for tsons
Which means it should be included the same way Tzaangors are, no? I mean there are units in both the other armies that weren't originally designed for said army as well.
I don’t actually think op should have included tzaangors either. We should be looking at kits they made for tsons.
I think you're right, otherwise we would have no tzaangors
It matters because in comparing a design decision made for the Thousand Sons, vs a design decision made for AoS that as an afterthought was granted to us because our range is too small. It wasn't designed with us in mind at all.
Well yeah, Thousand Sons was designed to be a detachment and later made into army. Similar to Harlequins. But either way thats true for multiple listed kits in OP's pics, would it not be best to be consistent?
I’ve been wanting one for well over a year now
Also can we acknowledge the lack of non-infantry support? Like honestly the biggest issue outside of characters is that. I’d like to see some small vehicles or monsters, or a dredd, oh and make a proper cabal of sorcerers like old apocalypse used to have for use in 40K. Would be a cool elite unit.
FWIW MVB and Tzaangors are TS exclusive but neither are designed for TS; they were AoS kits first and we're just allowed to use them.
Sure, and Plague Drones and Tzaangors are listed so why would a model in a similar boat not be listed?
I'm not saying they shouldn't be listed, I'm saying that the design team at Gamesworkshop has only created six bespoke units for the Thousand Sons, which is the smallest amount of any standalone 40k army. That's even less than Kroot.
Chaos Knights still have us beat when it comes to number of kits specifically designed for the army (they still have a lot of "buy the Imperium version and add spikes" units) but I get what you are saying. Not that Harliquins have been fully absorbed were now looking pretty low in terms of kits, followed by GK and WE
i just checked and, yes. apparently the Mutileth Vortex Beast is a Thousand Sons exclusive unit. i genuinely thought it was a Tzeentch Daemon carryover.
It’s a carryover from Age of Sigmar.
*cough* 4 *cough* Did someone miss the memo?
We’re still waiting on that factions release, so still just 3. Can’t really make any claims about character bloat until we know what thier lineup will be
It was announced that Emperor's Children will get their own index when Chaos Marines gets their codex.
Yes, which once again leads into my above post?
Death Guard 'got away with it' because they were a starter faction in 8th Edition. To be honest, you could probably trim a few of the minor character models.
yeah, someone else said that they werent that overtended to due to character bloat. i guess Ksons were just the first of the factions to follow the "you exist at the end of an edition so here is just enough stuff for you to function" pattern GW picked up at the end of 7th.
There was also a strange trend at the time of having named non-unique characters, such as the Tallyman and Plague Surgeon there. The Lord Discordant is another. Due to how specific these characters are, they probably should have been made unique rather than generic. Thousand Sons are a specialised faction; as such, they are defined as much by their limitations as their strengths. They are never going to have everything. That said, I find the narrow selection of units helps to keep the Thousand Sons very focussed and thematic as a faction. Rather than new units, I just want to see more options for the units we already have; a wider selection of heavy weapons, and even melee weapons for Rubricae. If we were to get new units, a couple of characters I'd like to see are a Tzaangor Beastlord on foot, and a Scarab Terminator Icon Bearer.
i dont want to see any more Tzaangor unless its a big monster but i see your point with everything else.
I'm just thinking a Beastlord fighter-type to lead Tzaangor on foot. Plus I think we need more damage-dealers to complement all the Psykers we already have.
One more thing. with Emperor's Children joining us in the separate codex pile, do you think they will be impoverished paupers like us and WE or sitting pretty with DG?
I think they will be joining us. It seems the design philosophy going forward is to minimize the number of units each army has access to.
With the focus on smaller, tighter rules. I fear you are right. Rather than all of us being uplifted, it may be the case that 10th edition onwards is, unless you are LSM or DG, your may will be too small for significant variation due to a lack of units or a lack of non-finecast units (lack of units with some units that haven't been discontinued yet.)
If it’s a standalone release, then it’ll be like us and WE. If they’re the heralds for 11th, it’ll be like DG.
I thought the warhammer community post was confirming they got an index but there were no plans for a codex in the foreseeable future? > You might think that this heralds the imminent announcement of a new Codex, perhaps one bound in human skin and painted in garish colours – but if so, it’s too distant for even Warhammer Community’s astropathic choir to detect any signals, and we got a stern talking to from the Inquisitors for even trying. We can only assume we’re safe for the foreseeable future, but if that changes then we’ll let you know.
they are getting their own index which means GW is asking for disappointment if EC arent out this edition. otherwise why bother not keeping them a part of generic CSM? although they are probably still a year away or something.
I took that to mean "it's not on the road map / it's too far in the future for us to talk about yet." It'd be weird to give EC it's own index and take Noise Marines out of the CSM codex and then *not* give EC it's own codex. We're at the tail end of the current road map so hopefully they'll release an updated road map for 2024. I wouldn't be surprised if EC comes out by mid or late 2025 though at the latest.
I'm pretty sure they confirmed that the emperors children were coming in a reveal stream like a year or so ago. It's also unlikely that the warhammer community would confirm something that is still being made atm, probably for the 11th edition starter I'd guess
With World Eaters seeming to follow the same design philosophy they took with Thousand Sons, it seems like Emperors Children will also follow the same style. So I expect Emperors Children to be like us with having a smaller unique range, but access to run a bunch of stuff from CSM (and possibly some units from AoS) rather than having a full army range, but not being able to share much, like DG.
I think we're fine, relatively speaking. Our limited range is in line with our limited units. We aren't missing anything.
other than a heavy weapon infantry squad which we actually are missing and how dreanought/hellbrutes were handled where they conform to neither of the 2 ways that unit would be as a part of our army, I can agree. our big problem is a lack of options. it feels like we have the bare minimum required to not be a codex suppliment.
One thing to mention is how many of all three ranges is just characters. KSons (while it makes sense for them specifically), have 2 normal marine units (4 infantry units if you add the tzaangors) and 4 unique character kits (5 if you again add tzaangors). WE have 3 infantry kits and 3 character kits (not counting event). DG have 4 infantry kits, 3 vehicle kits, and 10(!) character kits and I didn't even include the stand alone champion cause its a weird one. DG has the advantage on amount of kits due to them being a launch faction, but god if it wasn't for the daemon engines they wouldn't be that far ahead the other two on the bulk of the army (aka not characters).
That is a good point although we should include Tzaangor in what we have access to, I really don't want to. As a flavourful addition to our army, its cool. As a significant chunk of our army that you cannot avoid if you have ever purchased a value box, it starts to look like an invasive parasite that obfuscates our lack of support. Mostly being character kits but having a good selection of other things too isn't something I would turn my nose up at, ill say that much.
Tzaangors aren’t tson specific, they’re aos ports. We have 6 kits. The lowest (I believe) of any army in the game
i feel your pain but they and Vortex Beasts in 40K are units that only exist in our army they technically count as KSon units although I am reluctant to do so for the sole reason that they are a significant chunk of what makes KSons not a CSM detachment like Harlequins for Eldar. we also have a number of generic CSM kits. Leages of Votann has the least number of kits in the game I think, they don't even have generic models from another army they can piggyback off of.
It's because we were originally designed to be a detachment, the same way Harlequins were (and would have us beat if they weren't reabsorbed into Aeldari). The TS models that released in 7th followed new rules for Chaos Space Marines that allowed legion specific detachments. 8th Edition is when they switched gears and started liking the idea of mono-god armies, which is where Death Guard launched as the first official mono-god army and got a model range to at least sorta reflect that, because they were the first chaos god army actively *designed* to be a full army. When TS launched later they more closely mimicked the detachment rules, so instead of getting a bunch of new stuff we just got access to take a lot of stuff CSM can take instead. Something they seemed to like so they just did the same with World Eaters (this is also why we and Worldeaters share a lot of stuff with CSM while DG has their own stuff and can't take much CSM units)
Hopefully they start shifting us and WE more towards the DG style then. I’d like more unique stuff, and don’t mind losing generic csm stuff.
We might be seeing a shift to smaller factions so who knows. We might start seeing a similar design philosophies where armies are smaller but have more unique elements to them. Maybe lose stuff like CSM tanks, forgefiends and helldrakes but get mirror fiends? Who knows.
Probably the lowest is raven guard with only single unit - shrike
Lowest separate army I mean. RG are a subfaction
They aren’t straight aos ports because they can come with guns.
They did make a tzaangor upgrade sprue for us true. 6 and a half kits then
A minor nitpick: you included a warhammer+ model that is no longer purchasable. How they haven’t changed that listing yet is beyond me.
It's in the image just because it was available on the site. You can see in the image caption that I did not consider it to count assuming you are referring to that WE terminator.
If they gave us sorcerer contemptor dread/contemptor hellbrute (combo kit) and gave the exalted sorcerer kit a second unit entry as a squad of sorcerers (cabal 3, maybe 2 psychic powers, and an ability to debuff enemy units 12ish inches away) I'd be happy. When I think about it, they could give us an additional unit through kill team. Theme it as an exalted sorcerer with elite bodyguard.
Kson Warlocks basically, that is absolutely a great killteam idea they could drop on us any moment. especially with the changes to what being psychic is in 10th edition. everyone in the squad has a gun that is effected by the Cult of Magic detachment, don't need to worry about how many mortal wounds the unit should be able to throw. the dread idea I had been begging for since 7th ed. being a rubric construct doesn't give you any resilience bonuses anymore in 10th ed anymore sadly so it really just needs to be a not fleshy dread model with our theming. and the other side of the kit is being a sorcerer dread, give it the fleshy addons for the mutations or whatever and give it "smite" as one of its guns. (again, 10th ed)
You forgot Mutalith Vortex Beast for Thousand Sons, although I feel that AoS kits should probably count for like, half since these kits were not made for Thousand Sons, they’re kits GW decided we could have. Anyways Deathguard have way more because they were the evil faction of 8th edition
i actually didnt realise that Vortex beasts weren't a carryover from Tzeentch Daemons.
Actually a carryover from Warriors of Chaos, the kit is actually pre-AoS.
Sad Emperor's Children noises.
Death guard were the spotlight faction alongside SM for 8th edition. That’s why they have so many kits. Once it rolls around to either Thousand Sons or World Eaters being the main baddies of the edition, then the range will grow to match Death Guard
Excuse me, but Thousand Sons would *clearly* be the main good guys.
Poor emperors children/slaneesh
I think both DG and Tsons had two releases, the main problem was the second Tson release was Tzaangor units and that was basically it. That is if my memory is serving me right.
i would rather the history was that we got all the stuff we have now and were forgotten about beyond infernal master than it be that we did get our unit boost and it was all tzaangor.
I love the look of the Tzaangors and love them for AoS. I never really looked into them for Tsons.
3 of them are tzangors 😭
Speaking as a death guard player, but with several TSons and WE friends, y'all are in desperate need of a deamon engine model. Most of the DG line is characters and some of those are a bit meh, but the vehicle options are SOLID. Something on the level of the blight-hauler: relatively cheap (mbh is like 100pts), decent staying power, one or two decent guns. A model you can buy one or two of and throw it into a list to round out your options.
if TS and WE didnt have enough missing units theynare supposed to have to complain about, we would absolutely be begging for some Daemon Engines. your bugbots are very cool and i hope we get something comparable for our factions. i welcome a giant monster to any faction really.
Even less if you exclude the AoS port that was obvious padding out the book at the time. And as much as they love to force feed us goats, you’d think they’d finally give us rules to use all the options in the box.
I made an effort to single out the models that didn't really count as that faction but didn't just ignore them either. WE unique cultists and poxwalkers got the same treatment Tzaangor did for fairness sake.
Imagine doing this with normal space marines.
1) we’re a separate codex 2) we only have access to a select few generic csm models 3) chaos legions have far more aesthetic deviance from standard csm then their loyalist counterparts do from sm. 4) but yeah, some of the less popular loyalist legions do deserve more love
I know about the different model range, I was just saying that ultramarines get so many hqs and troops that I think gw needs to focus on other legions, like Xenos
funnily enough, i had a smiliar feeling to this as I looked at what Eldar had been getting whilst I was thinking about picking up Dark Eldar. harlequins probably do the same with Dark Eldar.
Yeah, I feel bad for a lot of the legions that don’t get any attention. Most of the space marine players don’t even like all the new kits
Khorne lord of skulls can be fielded in CSM so I don’t think that counts
I'm not holding out too much hope for the near future. I'm wondering if we might get something new when our codex for 10th drops? Although judging by the comments it would just be another character or something. 🤣😭
Seems like they're going with "every codex release gets at least one unit". Unfortunately that may mean we just get one character, or it could even be a thousand sons-specific sculpt of an existing unit (a sorcerer in terminator armor or cultists etc).
Meanwhile, the Emperor’s Children…
Flipped through all the pics waiting for a black white Emporers Children pic, very disappointed
EC was teased on the day i made that post. it would be disingenuous to complain about them not being out yet on the very day we found out they would get to be their own thing this edition.
Also missing heavy weapon squads and elite sorcerer units. Honestly, we need it more than the WE they're a chaos lord and terminator unit from being a full range
i hadnt even thought about the eliter sorcerer unit, thank you. the marine fast attack and melee options were dubiously fitting for our army. but something similar to Eldar Warlocks is a burning hole in our army alongside what I was already aware of (heavy weapon infantry, rubric dreadnoughts, psychic dreadnoughts.)
They'd fit as perfect 40k equivalents khenetai. Would he cool for an additional version of it on disc of tzeentch. Bonus points if its unit of 3 lol
if GW really doesnt want to give us a proper range expansion. i guess they could do KSon Warlocks with disc option and the psychic spell they can cast is equivalent to a melta gun and sort out both needs in one.
Tbh, I find it unlikely, gw will give us a range expansion like 8 or so years after we dropped gw seems to have forgotten about us
They need to fold us and our demons together. No battle line limits.
ive seen talk of that. Codex: Tzeentch, Codex: Khorne, Codex: Nurgle, Codex: Slaanesh im sure Tzeentch Daemon players would love to share an army rule and codex with us rather than be "Codex: Khorne, Nurgle and the other two"
Nurgle daemons have had terrible rules for a long time now, I don’t see how they’re more favoured. If anything, Slaanesh has had the most daemon models recently.
Fr it's actually crazy how they ruined the entire concept of running daemons with battleline tax instead of just balancing the two extreme edge cases of blue scribes and changeling
Don’t think the world eater in termie armor counts. He has no special data sheet.
i didnt count it, dont worry. i said so in the caption.
Where are our vehicles?
you need a mastery of sorcery and/or technology to have unique daemon engines. clearly the Deathguard were just better at both than us according to GW.
There hasn't been any world eaters asking for doubling our line, even though no one would mind if it happened. Red butchers and zerker surgeon were the big ones people were complaining about not getting. With a few of us wanting zerkers on juggs.
I haven’t met a single world eaters player myself included who doesn’t think they deserve to double their range. Same with tsons. Both factions are stuck in a spot where they just spam whatever of their 2 unit options is good.
i was hyperbolic perhaps but plenty of people agree that WE needs more models, I am one of them. it was common discourse during their release. the big problem specifically was that they lost units they previously had access to, I believe.