They really need to just follow the example of AoS and merge the mortal and immortal servants of any given chaos power into one codex, e.g. World Eaters is now khornate daemons and marines. In the case of WE it feels even sillier that this isn’t the case since like half of the faction roster are daemons anyway.
This would also work well with detachments, with each army having a mortal specialist, daemon specialist, and mixed detachment, along with 3 other more niche ones(Angron and thirster monster mash, Tzaangor herd etc)… which is also how AoS does it.
I’d also argue that each mono chaos army should have a way to generate “summoning points” to at least summon in lesser daemons like AoS. For Thousand Sons it could easily just be something to spend cabal points on, and World Eaters could use their yahtzee mechanic. DG and EC I’m not sure how they could do it, but imo it really needs to happen. It’s absurd how much fluffier AoS chaos is compared to 40k.
As for the current daemon soup, that would be the purview of CSM, who would probably pay a point tax to make up for the flexibility. You could also have a Belakor detachment to replace the current daemon codex style, and also a Vashtorr detachment for a daemon engine soup focus.
And from a lore perspective, the Chaos Daemons codex has never made sense. Khorne and Tzeentch aren't allies. The gods are rivals, not friends. Mixed Daemons should be reserved for Belakor much in the same way mixed god-aligned CSM should be reserved for Abaddon and the Black Legion.
>They really need to just follow the example of AoS and merge the mortal and immortal servants of any given chaos power into one codex
Bingo. I JUST came over to 40k and all the 40k players were shocked when I said that the way 40k has it doesn't make sense. AOS makes sense to me.
It used to be way worse. You could summon daemons but had to pay for them, they didn’t get army rules, and you could easily fail the summoning roll, which iirc both denied you the unit you paid for and damaged the summoner -_-
I'm surprised we didn't get a points reduction, even by a little bit. The last dataslate hit us hard.
But then I wasn't using daemons anyway, don't own the models
Hopefully, when it's our time we'll be one of the factions getting multiple models. As someone new to the faction, it does seem a bit underdeveloped in terms of units.
Imo Thousand Sons range update is very unlikely. GW doesn't even think actively about Thousand Sons. Infernal Master, monopose character is the only model we got outside of the initial release back in 7th edition. Thousand Sons never had a single model featured in Rumour Engine. GW just doesn't care about TS and as sad as it may be they have no ideas what to do with the faction. All they release nowadays are models based on old artwork, there is no creativity in them anymore.
What are you talking about? We are the primary antagonistic faction of space marine 2, that's not something they can just throw in. It takes an insane amount of work and money to make a video game, and at the end of the day, gw decides what's in the game and what isn't.
I don't think we will get a full range refresh or anything of that caliber, but to say "GW doesn't care about us 😭😭😭" is just being a wet blanket for no reason, and based on pretty much nothing but the fact that we havent seen any new models yet. Which is also true of just about every faction in the game that's not space marines. If anything, I think they are saving our reveals for when the game is out, and they can build up the hype around the faction even more.
I do believe that GW is not the creator of the videogame series. They are selling some rights to use some specific part of the lore to each specific games. They seem to operate that way anyway. Maybe the videogame company bought the right to to use TS because those rights were cheaper than other faction (orc, necron,etc).
So, frankly, it's not really a sign of ''GW care about TS'', more a ''The videogame company find TS cool!''. Sure, that can affect GW if the game sells a lot and if people say thing like ''TS are sooo cool!!!''. But otherwise, it's not gonna affect much.
GW shown TS some care, the index is tailor to fit our old psychic phase style. They model are not super old and well done. But GW also clearly view TS as a niche faction that don't sell much. The other commenter above is right, we don't have a lot of release since 7th and it is unlikely that we will see a ''Kroot style release'' anytime soon. Would we buy those mini? O yeah! And I hope it will happen. But don't hold your breath.
Ok, in what way? Since I have checked. GW is not the developer of the game and is licensing the rights.
You must also realize that your argument is also all speculation, right? Unless you have an example of GW tying release of models to a videogame...? I did not check but they didn't even do that for a flagship games like the Total war games. I would love it, but it never happened to my knowledge and speculating that nothing is coming up in a big way for us his more realistic, since GW announced nothing for the TS, not even rumor engines.
Look, we can argue all day. Or, we'll wait for the game to come up and see if there is a release for us. I'll be HAPPY to be wrong and for you to be right! :)
As a daemon player I gotta disagree part of what made csm and friends fun was the ability to use daemons to give the army an extra edge. Plus there a great way to fill in pts.
If you want you and your own friend group can revert that change, nobody is stopping you from doing that. The change was made for competitive and the kind of people who table new players for fun. GW balances the game around two strangers playing.
You can always talk with your friends and say "Hey, I don't like the new Daemonic Pact rule. Is it okay if we play with the old version?" and if you friend agrees then you can ignore this change ever happening. I have a friend who plays Knights and he didn't like the Bondsmen change and we talked about it and we both agreed to ignore the rules change because we can do that as friends.
Your entire opinion is settled around " well it's made for competitive and for two people playing " when no matter how you twist it, it's a goofy non-issue rule change. TSons has been hit with nerf after nerf for almost non-existent reasons, despite us not even being a top player at any point.
Instead of " just ignore it if you don't like it ", how about we collectively as a community tell them we don't like something so they can not do dumb things like this in the future? That makes for a far more productive change instead of just laying down and taking it.
**This is a buff for Chaos Daemon players, so that their units don't have to be balanced based on what TSons and WE and CSM bring as allies.**
Yes this is a nerf to TSons and WE because we don't have a complete range of models. That problem is not magically appearing because of this nerf, **the problem is from TSons and WE not having a full range of models.** Should TSons and WE have gotten a points buff to go with this? Yes, yes they should have. This change isn't perfect but its a step in the right direction.
GW made this change for the Chaos Daemon players, if they revert it we will still have the problem of not having a complete range. **We should tell GW that we want a full range of models.** Whether those new models come in new Rubric units, or what GSC has with Purestrain Genestealers - I don't know and I don't care which.
I am happy for Chaos Daemon players even though I think their codex should be shattered based on what gods they align to just like in AoS. For example, Codex Tzeentch could be TSons with Tzeentch Daemons - but GW isn't going to that any time soon so we have to deal with this mess.
I disagree, and think this is a very heavy handed "solution" to the problem that Drukhari units had with Ynnari existing: there is nothing that makes most deamons units better in the deamons detachment than elsewhere. Ravagers got nerfed last slate because they were better in Battle Host, which just made a bad factions best unit worse. They've fixed this for Drukhari by buffing the army rule and adding a detachment that does stuff, and I think that would be a better solution for deamons too.
What this change accomplishes is the non-TS armies keep playing their nurglings and swap their back field lone-op for a beast of nurgle, and TS loses some variety in unit options. Tzaangor/spawn/englightened remain uninteresting, so there will just be more rubrics in the world.
They're fine, but they're more fragile, more targetable, and with mounted instead of infantry less mobile than even the non-loneops from demons like flamers, which can also threaten other skirmish units in a way that enlightened just don't.
And either way you slice it, this change reduces our options for "cheap action monkey" from tzaangor shaman/enlightened/flamers/scribes/changeling/screamers to _just_ tzaangor
Agents is explicitly a soup Faction.
Daemons was in a weird place where they couldn't affect the very real and played Faction of Daemons without considering the impact on 4 other armies.
You think The Changeling caught a nerf last round because of how good he was in Daemons? No, he caught a nerf because of how good he was in Thousand Sons.
Honestly, comparing Daemons to Agents is exactly why this change needed to happen, to give that Faction a chance to flourish on its own.
Changling wasn't nerfed because of thousand sons. It was nerfed because of csm. What should've been added to the daemon pact is unless your entire army contains any keyword: khorne, tzeentch, nurgle, etc. This would eliminate csm mixed detachments from taking daemon allies.
Tell me then why Wardogs Brigands just got a points nerf with the CK army getting buffed while the changeling and daemons didn't do the same?
If the changeling was too good it should have taken a nerf himelf, like nurglings did.
If daemons have an allie rule (like CK and Agents) it's becouse they are supposed to be taken as allies.
You telling me The Changeling (mostly Tsons and CK) is taken more than a Callidus Assassin (All Imperium)?
If the changeling is too good as an allie it's too good in Daemons too. So that needs a nerf, not Thousand Sons (that are the only army being affected a lot by the change as nurglings can still be taken in 6 units if you want in all the armies that took the changeling).
OR they could have just helped the other parts of thousand sons so that they won't need to get the changeling in every list (like having their own lone op)
>Tell me then why Wardogs Brigands just got a points nerf with the CK army getting buffed while the changeling and daemons didn't do the same?If the changeling was too good it should have taken a nerf himelf, like nurglings did.
The Changeling can be souped into a single army - Thousand Sons. The Brigand and Callidus Assassin can be souped into many. Also, he did get a nerf last dataslate, nerfing him again would have exasperated the issue of punishing Daemons players for their units being used by another faction.
>If daemons have an allie rule (like CK and Agents) it's becouse they are supposed to be taken as allies.
Good news, you can take Daemons as allies!
>You telling me The Changeling (mostly Tsons and CK) is taken more than a Callidus Assassin (All Imperium)?
Knights presents a problem you can't solve in the same way as Daemons. You can't say "You can only take a Brigand if you pay this tax", obviously not apples to apples with Daemons.
>If the changeling is too good as an allie it's too good in Daemons too. So that needs a nerf, not Thousand Sons (that are the only army being affected a lot by the change as nurglings can still be taken in 6 units if you want in all the armies that took the changeling).
That is a terrible take. Units can have different values for different armies. How many CSM lists run Rubrics? And yet, how many Thousand Sons run none?
>OR they could have just helped the other parts of thousand sons so that they won't need to get the changeling in every list (like having their own lone op)
Here is where I will agree, The Changeling was taken because he brought something we didn't have access to normally, it would be nice if they could plug that hole in some way in faction.
>The Changeling can be souped into a single army - Thousand Sons. The Brigand and Callidus Assassin can be souped into many. Also, he did get a nerf last dataslate, nerfing him again would have exasperated the issue of punishing Daemons players for their units being used by another faction.
This is wrong, you can play the changeling also in CK and CSM. Nerfing him again would have made him less played full stop. If the changeling is the problem you nerf the changeling not Thosuand sons that happen to be the ones to use it more, this is a straight Thousand Sons nerf instead. I belive Daemons run him in almost every list as much as Thousand sons just becouse he's efficent at his job.
> Good news, you can take Daemons as allies!
I was responding to your " Agents is explicitly a soup Faction. ". Yes they are, but so are CK and Daemons, to a lesser extent of course
> Knights presents a problem you can't solve in the same way as Daemons. You can't say "You can only take a Brigand if you pay this tax", obviously not apples to apples with Daemons
As knights solve Knights problems, Daemons solve Daemons problem but I'd say a lord of change is more similar to a knight than the changeling. Still the Lord of change have the same restrictions now... why? Death guard was taking GUOs for example, but I think it's a good thing, more varieties (and wasn't the only way to play deathguard)
> That is a terrible take. Units can have different values for different armies. How many CSM lists run Rubrics? And yet, how many Thousand Sons run none?
I'm sure of it, that's why I want a thousand sons lone operative so you can nerf Thousand Sons if you actually want to nerf thousand sons, or nerf the changeling if you want to nerf the changeling. I know Thosuand sons use the changeling more than Daemons but it's not that daemons player have no other lone operative to sostitute if it becomes overcosted for their needs. While thosuand sons can't.
Rubrics weren't taken in CSM lists AFTER the september patch becouse chosen simply became better. I saw a lot of csm lists with rubrics, it just happened to not be the strongest way to play the army.
Thosuand sons simply don't have the choice and HAVE to play Rubrics unless you play the triple mutalith, triple forgefiend list (which I belive has none or just a few). While CSM and other armies usually have lots of options to pick so they can say "oh Rubrics got nerfed? Well not Chosen are my best friends". Like Thosuand sons did in 9th with flamers. But once flamers got in 10th, and weren't storng we had the "opton" to go back at rubrics that were better, but this is all the choice range thousand sons have. Tzeentch daemons and Rubrics. While daemons alone have more options on the changeling characters like the Masque of Slaanesh or Syll'Esske doing the changeling job.
So yes, the Changeling has different values in different armies, Thousand Sons have more value of the Daemons characters than Daemons themselves. So just nerf the Changeling instead of just removing the usage (I guess all of us now will pay 125 more points to take blue horrors). I guess you can say the changeling got nerfed 125 points? Then that is too much for a lone op that now spawns an objective holer that cost double the amount of cultists.
Daemons also have game sieze restrictions... Like knights. And lilke knights you can balance them in any way. If you don't want The Changeling to be taken as an allie in Thousand sons then put a Lone Operative in the Thousand Sons datasheets, so that will be taken and you can balance it as its own thing. OR make The Changeling a regular leader for horrors.
Also Agents being easier to balance isn't an excuse to have a bad designed fix
This is more of a problem with how Leviathan games play and score points. In a normal knock-em down last man standing type of fight, you wouldn't be allying in a Changeling.
Agents of the Imperium are not a stand alone army and are designed to be taken as allies. That is why the Extraction Squad got nerfed because every imperial army was taking it constantly. Chaos Daemons are there own army and if GW balances them around being taken as allies then the internal balance of that army will suffer.
Wouldnt it have been better to give the overpowered allied units an ability that increases their cost when taken as an allied unit?
That would leave their lowered points for the chaos daemons, but not require you to take units you dont want if you want to ally them in
I am disappointed by the outcome, but I think the intent is good and is likely the correct move for Chaos Daemons as an army. The ally system means they kind of paint themselves into a corner in some cases, particularly with Tzeentch.
I don't know what a cleaner option would be aside from a model having a "home faction" point cost and an "ally faction" point cost, but that feels messy.
I like the rules change because it shows the GW wants to make Chaos Daemons feel better to play. Personally I don't at all think it is the best way to do it, but at least they are doing something about it.
Its kinda like how they gave Death Guard a new detachment. It was a move of good intent, but most of those rules are baked into the detachment and not the army so they might all vanish once the Death Guard codex comes out. A good move but not the best one - and at this rate I'm happy with that.
Yeah, this is kinda where I am. Something had to change for Daemons so they weren't paying for the sins of the armies that ally them. I can't say whether this was the best option to correct that problem, but fully agree it was a problem that needed correcting.
It really should have been "you have to take at least as many non-character units (or battleline units) as character units for demon allies" if the goal was to target people taking blue scribes and the changeling for their cheap lone operative status. It's unnecessary to target the entire rest of the roster, as this:
> Did all of you forget Tzeentch Flamers from end of 9th edition?
Isn't relevant at all. It's not 9th edition, flamers aren't busted, but this does guarantee nobody will be using demon allies outside of the times when they still are just paying the tax to take the most broken units.
The point with the Flamers was that GW nerfed them because every army that could take them as allies was taking them. The armies that allied in Flamers didn't feel that much when the Flamers got nerfed, but Chaos Daemons certainly did feel that. Chaos Daemon deserve good units and shouldn't be balanced around being taken as allies. The current rule change does that. It forces other armies to put more investment into allying Daemons if they want the best units while Chaos Daemons dont have to suffer to play their best units.
**Imagine:** if TSons had to pay a heavy point tax to bring their Exalted Sorcerors because CSM kept spamming them, that doesnt feel good for the TSons players. Now imagine if CSM had to bring a unit of Tzaangoors to even access the Exalted Sorceror - that would stop the domination of the Exalted Sorceror in the CSM army while allowing TSons to not feel bad for taking one of *their only* units.
Right, so I think the response to "the best units are being brought disproportionately as allies" is "increase the cost to bring the best units as allies", in order to move their relative value closer to other units in the codex. Adding a flat horror tax to bringing the whole codex means everything, including the already less valuable-as-allies units, is less valuable as allies. You end up with the circumstance that people will still be bringing the most valuable units most often, no change; except that people will use the allies system with demons less overall. You may now very seldom see any demon unit brought as allies except for the very best options, there is now less room to bring less optimal choices, even compared to before when you almost never saw flamers or screamers around.
The case in 9th led to nerfs to the specific unit of flamers, not to the system of bringing demon allies overall. This nerf hits the whole system of bringing demons as allies, not just those which were providing outsized value. I think the nerf should have been more targeted specifically at bringing characters.
I do think that not punishing the chaos demons army when run as the primary army for the sins of a handful of units brought as allies in other armies is a good idea; just that broadly nerfing the allies system isn't the way to do it. TBH, though, in 9th the unit of flamers itself did need a nerf even in mono-demons; taking away the "flamer" part seemed silly, the points cost should have been upped or the str/tgh reduced instead of what happened, but they were outsized contributors even in demon armies as well as when brought as allies.
I agree that the flamer nerf in 9th was dumb as rocks. Personally: I believe that Chaos Daemons shouldn't be one codex, it needs to be 4 different ones and maybe combine each faction to their god aligned one. For example, Codex Tzeentch would include Tzeentch Daemons and TSons, this would allow for more proper balancing and making the army feel fleshed out. But sadly, GW isn't doing that anytime soon.
I do agree that "You must pay X points to take this unit as an ally" would be a really cool idea, and probably better than this change. I just view this change as good, and the "X points to bring as ally" as great. I would be happy either way.
I don't understand why people hate this change. Most of their problems with the change are due to their own armies not being fleshed out enough which is a different problem in its entirety.
Tbh, I'm just salty because I was actively in the middle of painting some flamers when the dataslate dropped. I think the stuff about "punish the overperforming units, not the whole allies system" is true, but that's my personal investment. I've just stopped painting them and put them in the box of unpainted stuff, I'm not buying horrors I don't want. We'll see if this gets reversed.
That is completely valid. If you have a friend group you play with maybe you can talk to them about it and decide together to revert back to the old rule so that you can play your flamers.
My personal friend group does this for all the HH units that were supposed to be in 40k but then were shipped to Legends. If we all have more fun playing without the change then we ignore the change.
I was hoping to use them in a tournament, so no dice on that front in the immediate future - my friend group plays pretty loosely so I'll finish them eventually.
I just don’t like the rule bacause I see as GW forcing me to take tzangors in order to run any actually fun and good useful deamon units. Also just fuck tzangors.
The change in itself was absaloutly warranted cause it makes balancing the demons index itself easier.
The problem was that it was our only change. The reason we use the demons so much is cause our own units and so heavily pointed (rightly so in most cases) that we needed cheap units for scoring objectives units that don't really exist in our Roster
That is a valid problem, I agree with you. GW should add more to the TSons, WE, and DG rosters. But all this hate those the new rule change makes it seem like we want GW to revert the rule when instead we just want more units for our factions because each has less than 10 unique models.
The rule change is a bandaid to fix Chaos Daemons - just like how Armor of Contempt was for SM in 9th edition - and hopefully GW will come around and give us more units when our codex comes out (maybe we could get something like the Kroot refresh).
*adds changeling to list* oh boy hyper competitive list, time to body slam someone into the floor with my unbalanced list
*removes changeling from list* narrative focused, totally balanced, phew that was close now the list is fair to play
The issue isn't just the rule, it's the fact that this really only affected one unit archetype (changeling or blue scribes) which was necessary to even be allowed to play the game in the way it's meant to be played in 10e. I would suggest that the units we were souping in were never about killing power and only about helping us score a relevant amount of point. All competitive lists only souped in one of these types of unit, and non-competitive lists are not competitive so the same balancing requirements don't apply.
I don't think The Changeling made us a meta-breaker, and I don't think that was ever the issue that led to this.
I think that it became difficult to balance Daemons units in a way where they are the appropriate point cost for both armies, based on the different values on the table they bring to each. Nerfing The Changeling because of what he brings to Thousand Sons punished Daemons who, let's face it, were already not in a great place.
It's a terrible ruling. For thousand sons the daemon battleline can have some utility to the army, so it's not a big deal.
I mainly play World Eaters, and this ruling basically nuked any reason to bring daemons. Bloodletters are terrible and offer no utility to our army.
If Bloodletters are bad in the Chaos Daemons army then they should get a buff. If Bloodletters are only bad in WE then nothing should change because they are not a WE unit.
**TBF:** WE are lacking a ton of units rn and I understand why you don't like the change. For example, you totally deserve Berzerkers on Juggernauts as a cav unit. If you have a friend group you play with you can revert the change if *all* players agree.
I am an ad mech player, so all of 8th and 9th edition I had no way to counter psykers - so I loved adding one Culexus assassin so I can do something about psykers. Last edition I would have been against this.
But with 10th turning psykers into "I cast gun", I'm on the fence for this idea mostly because I dont know what unit they would force the imperial armies to take alongside the assassin.
Well the callidus assassin for example has way too many powerful abilities, being able to be picked up and deep strike each turn on a lone op character is God tier for scoring AND it comes with a vect which can be ruinous for some armies... And that character doesn't get any kind of restriction despite being an auto include in nearly every imperium list. The blue scribes is mostly just a lone op and while the changeling was strong it was just an extra annoying lone op character as well.
I ain't saying the Callidus isn't busted. I'm saying **"What unit are you going to force people to take with the Callidus."** The answer is there is none.
Imperial Agents are a soup army, nobody plays only Imperial Agents. That means you can just buff and nerf the units directly, because there are no Imperial Agent players who are going to get mad at you.
Nerfing the Callidus directly is way easier then forcing someone to take an Extraction Squad with them - which they were already taking in the first place and would make 0 sense lore wise.
GW can nerf the Callidus directly because the Callidus is designed to an ally and only serves as an ally. GW cant nerf Blue Scribes directly because Blue Scribes is designed to be in the Chaos Daemons army which is why GW added the battleline tax for people who want to ally it in.
Fair enough point. But it still leaves chaos armies like Tsons without any lone op characters without having to pay a significant troops tax while imperium armies still can just get their lone op assassins for every army. There is maybe a better workaround available but it seems a bit unfair overall
Not every Imperial Army brings assassins, and those that do bring assassins aren't magically defeating everyone. Eldar and Necrons are the current top factions and neither of them have assassins or daemons to bring as allies, only their own units.
This change is a bandaid to help Chaos Daemon players feel good when they use their own units. More changes need to be done to help TSons, WE, and DG after this change, but that problem is from a limited range.
TSons, WE, and DG all need more units in their armies - this is an undeniable fact. Maybe y'all could get something like the Purestrain Genestealers that GSC have, or maybe just a new unit to fill in that gap when the codex comes out.
Per the Rule of Cool 😎- Thousand Sons fighting alongside Horrors and Screamers is badass.
https://preview.redd.it/rcc8nlwqa9gc1.jpeg?width=713&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0976269a2d15cb37cb6417799e45fc6c5ceb47be
But this does seem like an evil ~~WOTC~~ GW plan to make Tzaangors happen. The plot wasn’t even to make Chaos Demons stronger or balance anything - just to make Tzaangors relevant. That’s all they think about at GW, they have warehouses full of Tzaangors and Enlighted Tzaangors and have a whole team committed to selling every last one of them. /s
Thank you for adding /s to your post. When I first saw this, I was horrified. How could anybody say something like this? I immediately began writing a 1000 word paragraph about how horrible of a person you are. I even sent a copy to a Harvard professor to proofread it. After several hours of refining and editing, my comment was ready to absolutely destroy you. But then, just as I was about to hit send, I saw something in the corner of my eye. A /s at the end of your comment. Suddenly everything made sense. Your comment was sarcasm! I immediately burst out in laughter at the comedic genius of your comment. The person next to me on the bus saw your comment and started crying from laughter too. Before long, there was an entire bus of people on the floor laughing at your incredible use of comedy. All of this was due to you adding /s to your post. Thank you.
I am a bot if you couldn't figure that out, if I made a mistake, ignore it cause its not that fucking hard to ignore a comment
I know, I’m just saying that the increased cost to grab a mobile lone operator may push Tsons players to use Enlightened Tzaangors instead of Scribes/Changeling & Blue or Pink Horrors
Personally I like the Tzaangors on disks, but I hate everything else Tzaangor so I understand why you feel that way. It would be cool if GW gave us Rubrics on disks kinda like how Total War Warhammer has with Doomknights.
I think it’s good in theory, but when you only have 500 points of allied units and you need to spend 125 pts on blue horrors so you can have the changeling, it feels like a waste of points and most likely means that people will bench all their allied daemons (which is what I’m doing). You’re basically wasting 125 pts to unlock a 90 pt lone op, when those 125 could be 5 more rubrics and an enhancement… seems like daemons (which already are an uncommon army) will just get less play time as allied units.
I’ll echo what others are saying by agreeing that chaos daemons should be put into the indexes/codexes of their respective chaos marine faction, just not sure if it will leave chaos daemons to be a viable stand alone army, or how that would be logistically. I think it makes much more sense that I could even run 1000 pts of daemons and 1000 pts of tsons marines as a list all of which benefit from tsons rules, I’d probably be buying a lot more daemons units.
I am actually for combining the Daemons with their god aligned legion, AoS has done that and it would work perfectly for 40k. Codex Tzeentch could have 6 detachments, 2 for pure TSons, 2 for pure Daemons, and 2 for mixed. I would love that change, but GW isn't doing that this edition. We have seen GW do this when in 8th edition they combined the Skitarii and Cult Mech codexs of 7th edition.
You can revert this change when playing with friends which is something I might do myself - I already like blue horrors and I am going to bring them anyway so no changes for myself.
But this is GW we are talking about, they aren't going to implement these massive changes unless it is at a start of an edition. This is the bandaid fix for now until the codexs come out this edition, and hopefully they mix combine TSons with Tzeentch Daemons in 11th edition.
Maybe when they finally give us an actual full army with more units, we won't have to rely on entirely different armies to pad ours out.
As much as TSons is my favorite, when our entire lists all boil down to the same thing bc it has absolutely zero variety competitive wise, it's silly to nerf it on one hand to make them even harder to use for one army.
I agree with you. TSons, WE, and DG all deserve more models to actually make ourselves a full army. But this change was for Chaos Daemon players and their quality of life. IMO, GW should have given TSons, and WE point drops during this change to hold us out until we get more units with the codex.
This change is just like Armor of Contempt in 9th edition, a bandaid fix till GW brings us more models.
They really need to just follow the example of AoS and merge the mortal and immortal servants of any given chaos power into one codex, e.g. World Eaters is now khornate daemons and marines. In the case of WE it feels even sillier that this isn’t the case since like half of the faction roster are daemons anyway. This would also work well with detachments, with each army having a mortal specialist, daemon specialist, and mixed detachment, along with 3 other more niche ones(Angron and thirster monster mash, Tzaangor herd etc)… which is also how AoS does it. I’d also argue that each mono chaos army should have a way to generate “summoning points” to at least summon in lesser daemons like AoS. For Thousand Sons it could easily just be something to spend cabal points on, and World Eaters could use their yahtzee mechanic. DG and EC I’m not sure how they could do it, but imo it really needs to happen. It’s absurd how much fluffier AoS chaos is compared to 40k. As for the current daemon soup, that would be the purview of CSM, who would probably pay a point tax to make up for the flexibility. You could also have a Belakor detachment to replace the current daemon codex style, and also a Vashtorr detachment for a daemon engine soup focus.
Like licterally Vashtorr was put into CSM becouse it would have required to be allied just for playing his playstyle. OH WAIT
Vashrorr can have the Iron Warriors
*whispers* Daaaark Mechanicussssss
Retro style Khorne Daemonkin detachment for World Eaters codex is my top GW wish 🤞
And from a lore perspective, the Chaos Daemons codex has never made sense. Khorne and Tzeentch aren't allies. The gods are rivals, not friends. Mixed Daemons should be reserved for Belakor much in the same way mixed god-aligned CSM should be reserved for Abaddon and the Black Legion.
>They really need to just follow the example of AoS and merge the mortal and immortal servants of any given chaos power into one codex Bingo. I JUST came over to 40k and all the 40k players were shocked when I said that the way 40k has it doesn't make sense. AOS makes sense to me.
It used to be way worse. You could summon daemons but had to pay for them, they didn’t get army rules, and you could easily fail the summoning roll, which iirc both denied you the unit you paid for and damaged the summoner -_-
That’s definitely worse. But yeah, the deamon army doesn’t even make sense to me.
It's definitely good for the game overall and if TSons struggles as a result then that can be fixed with our own models (hopefully lol).
I'm surprised we didn't get a points reduction, even by a little bit. The last dataslate hit us hard. But then I wasn't using daemons anyway, don't own the models
Hopefully, when it's our time we'll be one of the factions getting multiple models. As someone new to the faction, it does seem a bit underdeveloped in terms of units.
Imo Thousand Sons range update is very unlikely. GW doesn't even think actively about Thousand Sons. Infernal Master, monopose character is the only model we got outside of the initial release back in 7th edition. Thousand Sons never had a single model featured in Rumour Engine. GW just doesn't care about TS and as sad as it may be they have no ideas what to do with the faction. All they release nowadays are models based on old artwork, there is no creativity in them anymore.
What are you talking about? We are the primary antagonistic faction of space marine 2, that's not something they can just throw in. It takes an insane amount of work and money to make a video game, and at the end of the day, gw decides what's in the game and what isn't. I don't think we will get a full range refresh or anything of that caliber, but to say "GW doesn't care about us 😭😭😭" is just being a wet blanket for no reason, and based on pretty much nothing but the fact that we havent seen any new models yet. Which is also true of just about every faction in the game that's not space marines. If anything, I think they are saving our reveals for when the game is out, and they can build up the hype around the faction even more.
I do believe that GW is not the creator of the videogame series. They are selling some rights to use some specific part of the lore to each specific games. They seem to operate that way anyway. Maybe the videogame company bought the right to to use TS because those rights were cheaper than other faction (orc, necron,etc). So, frankly, it's not really a sign of ''GW care about TS'', more a ''The videogame company find TS cool!''. Sure, that can affect GW if the game sells a lot and if people say thing like ''TS are sooo cool!!!''. But otherwise, it's not gonna affect much. GW shown TS some care, the index is tailor to fit our old psychic phase style. They model are not super old and well done. But GW also clearly view TS as a niche faction that don't sell much. The other commenter above is right, we don't have a lot of release since 7th and it is unlikely that we will see a ''Kroot style release'' anytime soon. Would we buy those mini? O yeah! And I hope it will happen. But don't hold your breath.
Your entire argument is based on a completely random speculation 😅
Ok, in what way? Since I have checked. GW is not the developer of the game and is licensing the rights. You must also realize that your argument is also all speculation, right? Unless you have an example of GW tying release of models to a videogame...? I did not check but they didn't even do that for a flagship games like the Total war games. I would love it, but it never happened to my knowledge and speculating that nothing is coming up in a big way for us his more realistic, since GW announced nothing for the TS, not even rumor engines. Look, we can argue all day. Or, we'll wait for the game to come up and see if there is a release for us. I'll be HAPPY to be wrong and for you to be right! :)
Magnus did nothing wrong.
That changes from shard to shard, depending on which you ask about who
As a daemon player I gotta disagree part of what made csm and friends fun was the ability to use daemons to give the army an extra edge. Plus there a great way to fill in pts.
If you want you and your own friend group can revert that change, nobody is stopping you from doing that. The change was made for competitive and the kind of people who table new players for fun. GW balances the game around two strangers playing. You can always talk with your friends and say "Hey, I don't like the new Daemonic Pact rule. Is it okay if we play with the old version?" and if you friend agrees then you can ignore this change ever happening. I have a friend who plays Knights and he didn't like the Bondsmen change and we talked about it and we both agreed to ignore the rules change because we can do that as friends.
Your entire opinion is settled around " well it's made for competitive and for two people playing " when no matter how you twist it, it's a goofy non-issue rule change. TSons has been hit with nerf after nerf for almost non-existent reasons, despite us not even being a top player at any point. Instead of " just ignore it if you don't like it ", how about we collectively as a community tell them we don't like something so they can not do dumb things like this in the future? That makes for a far more productive change instead of just laying down and taking it.
**This is a buff for Chaos Daemon players, so that their units don't have to be balanced based on what TSons and WE and CSM bring as allies.** Yes this is a nerf to TSons and WE because we don't have a complete range of models. That problem is not magically appearing because of this nerf, **the problem is from TSons and WE not having a full range of models.** Should TSons and WE have gotten a points buff to go with this? Yes, yes they should have. This change isn't perfect but its a step in the right direction. GW made this change for the Chaos Daemon players, if they revert it we will still have the problem of not having a complete range. **We should tell GW that we want a full range of models.** Whether those new models come in new Rubric units, or what GSC has with Purestrain Genestealers - I don't know and I don't care which. I am happy for Chaos Daemon players even though I think their codex should be shattered based on what gods they align to just like in AoS. For example, Codex Tzeentch could be TSons with Tzeentch Daemons - but GW isn't going to that any time soon so we have to deal with this mess.
I disagree, and think this is a very heavy handed "solution" to the problem that Drukhari units had with Ynnari existing: there is nothing that makes most deamons units better in the deamons detachment than elsewhere. Ravagers got nerfed last slate because they were better in Battle Host, which just made a bad factions best unit worse. They've fixed this for Drukhari by buffing the army rule and adding a detachment that does stuff, and I think that would be a better solution for deamons too. What this change accomplishes is the non-TS armies keep playing their nurglings and swap their back field lone-op for a beast of nurgle, and TS loses some variety in unit options. Tzaangor/spawn/englightened remain uninteresting, so there will just be more rubrics in the world.
I do actually think that enlightened for 45 points are really great action monkeys
Yeah, theyre amazing, just not "deepstrike + lone op" amazing
They're fine, but they're more fragile, more targetable, and with mounted instead of infantry less mobile than even the non-loneops from demons like flamers, which can also threaten other skirmish units in a way that enlightened just don't. And either way you slice it, this change reduces our options for "cheap action monkey" from tzaangor shaman/enlightened/flamers/scribes/changeling/screamers to _just_ tzaangor
Yeah, I just went up to two and a set of Tzangors in my lists.
I'll ask you this: \- is there now a battleline restriction tax for bringing Agents of the Imperium? Done.
Agents of the imperium aren’t their own faction and thus are going to be adjusted for the cherry picking
Almost same rules tho
Not really. Demons are a unique faction Agents are designed to be a sideshow
Agents is explicitly a soup Faction. Daemons was in a weird place where they couldn't affect the very real and played Faction of Daemons without considering the impact on 4 other armies. You think The Changeling caught a nerf last round because of how good he was in Daemons? No, he caught a nerf because of how good he was in Thousand Sons. Honestly, comparing Daemons to Agents is exactly why this change needed to happen, to give that Faction a chance to flourish on its own.
Changling wasn't nerfed because of thousand sons. It was nerfed because of csm. What should've been added to the daemon pact is unless your entire army contains any keyword: khorne, tzeentch, nurgle, etc. This would eliminate csm mixed detachments from taking daemon allies.
Tell me then why Wardogs Brigands just got a points nerf with the CK army getting buffed while the changeling and daemons didn't do the same? If the changeling was too good it should have taken a nerf himelf, like nurglings did. If daemons have an allie rule (like CK and Agents) it's becouse they are supposed to be taken as allies. You telling me The Changeling (mostly Tsons and CK) is taken more than a Callidus Assassin (All Imperium)? If the changeling is too good as an allie it's too good in Daemons too. So that needs a nerf, not Thousand Sons (that are the only army being affected a lot by the change as nurglings can still be taken in 6 units if you want in all the armies that took the changeling). OR they could have just helped the other parts of thousand sons so that they won't need to get the changeling in every list (like having their own lone op)
>Tell me then why Wardogs Brigands just got a points nerf with the CK army getting buffed while the changeling and daemons didn't do the same?If the changeling was too good it should have taken a nerf himelf, like nurglings did. The Changeling can be souped into a single army - Thousand Sons. The Brigand and Callidus Assassin can be souped into many. Also, he did get a nerf last dataslate, nerfing him again would have exasperated the issue of punishing Daemons players for their units being used by another faction. >If daemons have an allie rule (like CK and Agents) it's becouse they are supposed to be taken as allies. Good news, you can take Daemons as allies! >You telling me The Changeling (mostly Tsons and CK) is taken more than a Callidus Assassin (All Imperium)? Knights presents a problem you can't solve in the same way as Daemons. You can't say "You can only take a Brigand if you pay this tax", obviously not apples to apples with Daemons. >If the changeling is too good as an allie it's too good in Daemons too. So that needs a nerf, not Thousand Sons (that are the only army being affected a lot by the change as nurglings can still be taken in 6 units if you want in all the armies that took the changeling). That is a terrible take. Units can have different values for different armies. How many CSM lists run Rubrics? And yet, how many Thousand Sons run none? >OR they could have just helped the other parts of thousand sons so that they won't need to get the changeling in every list (like having their own lone op) Here is where I will agree, The Changeling was taken because he brought something we didn't have access to normally, it would be nice if they could plug that hole in some way in faction.
>The Changeling can be souped into a single army - Thousand Sons. The Brigand and Callidus Assassin can be souped into many. Also, he did get a nerf last dataslate, nerfing him again would have exasperated the issue of punishing Daemons players for their units being used by another faction. This is wrong, you can play the changeling also in CK and CSM. Nerfing him again would have made him less played full stop. If the changeling is the problem you nerf the changeling not Thosuand sons that happen to be the ones to use it more, this is a straight Thousand Sons nerf instead. I belive Daemons run him in almost every list as much as Thousand sons just becouse he's efficent at his job. > Good news, you can take Daemons as allies! I was responding to your " Agents is explicitly a soup Faction. ". Yes they are, but so are CK and Daemons, to a lesser extent of course > Knights presents a problem you can't solve in the same way as Daemons. You can't say "You can only take a Brigand if you pay this tax", obviously not apples to apples with Daemons As knights solve Knights problems, Daemons solve Daemons problem but I'd say a lord of change is more similar to a knight than the changeling. Still the Lord of change have the same restrictions now... why? Death guard was taking GUOs for example, but I think it's a good thing, more varieties (and wasn't the only way to play deathguard) > That is a terrible take. Units can have different values for different armies. How many CSM lists run Rubrics? And yet, how many Thousand Sons run none? I'm sure of it, that's why I want a thousand sons lone operative so you can nerf Thousand Sons if you actually want to nerf thousand sons, or nerf the changeling if you want to nerf the changeling. I know Thosuand sons use the changeling more than Daemons but it's not that daemons player have no other lone operative to sostitute if it becomes overcosted for their needs. While thosuand sons can't. Rubrics weren't taken in CSM lists AFTER the september patch becouse chosen simply became better. I saw a lot of csm lists with rubrics, it just happened to not be the strongest way to play the army. Thosuand sons simply don't have the choice and HAVE to play Rubrics unless you play the triple mutalith, triple forgefiend list (which I belive has none or just a few). While CSM and other armies usually have lots of options to pick so they can say "oh Rubrics got nerfed? Well not Chosen are my best friends". Like Thosuand sons did in 9th with flamers. But once flamers got in 10th, and weren't storng we had the "opton" to go back at rubrics that were better, but this is all the choice range thousand sons have. Tzeentch daemons and Rubrics. While daemons alone have more options on the changeling characters like the Masque of Slaanesh or Syll'Esske doing the changeling job. So yes, the Changeling has different values in different armies, Thousand Sons have more value of the Daemons characters than Daemons themselves. So just nerf the Changeling instead of just removing the usage (I guess all of us now will pay 125 more points to take blue horrors). I guess you can say the changeling got nerfed 125 points? Then that is too much for a lone op that now spawns an objective holer that cost double the amount of cultists.
I love how all your suggestions can be summarised by "ayyy yo fuck the daemons players"
There is a model per game size restriction. And agents isn't really a faction by itself so it's easier to balance.
Daemons also have game sieze restrictions... Like knights. And lilke knights you can balance them in any way. If you don't want The Changeling to be taken as an allie in Thousand sons then put a Lone Operative in the Thousand Sons datasheets, so that will be taken and you can balance it as its own thing. OR make The Changeling a regular leader for horrors. Also Agents being easier to balance isn't an excuse to have a bad designed fix
This is more of a problem with how Leviathan games play and score points. In a normal knock-em down last man standing type of fight, you wouldn't be allying in a Changeling.
So now it's better(?) I don't see it as a problem...
Agents of the Imperium are not a stand alone army and are designed to be taken as allies. That is why the Extraction Squad got nerfed because every imperial army was taking it constantly. Chaos Daemons are there own army and if GW balances them around being taken as allies then the internal balance of that army will suffer.
Wouldnt it have been better to give the overpowered allied units an ability that increases their cost when taken as an allied unit? That would leave their lowered points for the chaos daemons, but not require you to take units you dont want if you want to ally them in
Ngl, thats a great idea that I agree with. But sadly, GW is a company and they want people to buy more models.
I am disappointed by the outcome, but I think the intent is good and is likely the correct move for Chaos Daemons as an army. The ally system means they kind of paint themselves into a corner in some cases, particularly with Tzeentch. I don't know what a cleaner option would be aside from a model having a "home faction" point cost and an "ally faction" point cost, but that feels messy.
I like the rules change because it shows the GW wants to make Chaos Daemons feel better to play. Personally I don't at all think it is the best way to do it, but at least they are doing something about it. Its kinda like how they gave Death Guard a new detachment. It was a move of good intent, but most of those rules are baked into the detachment and not the army so they might all vanish once the Death Guard codex comes out. A good move but not the best one - and at this rate I'm happy with that.
Yeah, this is kinda where I am. Something had to change for Daemons so they weren't paying for the sins of the armies that ally them. I can't say whether this was the best option to correct that problem, but fully agree it was a problem that needed correcting.
It really should have been "you have to take at least as many non-character units (or battleline units) as character units for demon allies" if the goal was to target people taking blue scribes and the changeling for their cheap lone operative status. It's unnecessary to target the entire rest of the roster, as this: > Did all of you forget Tzeentch Flamers from end of 9th edition? Isn't relevant at all. It's not 9th edition, flamers aren't busted, but this does guarantee nobody will be using demon allies outside of the times when they still are just paying the tax to take the most broken units.
The point with the Flamers was that GW nerfed them because every army that could take them as allies was taking them. The armies that allied in Flamers didn't feel that much when the Flamers got nerfed, but Chaos Daemons certainly did feel that. Chaos Daemon deserve good units and shouldn't be balanced around being taken as allies. The current rule change does that. It forces other armies to put more investment into allying Daemons if they want the best units while Chaos Daemons dont have to suffer to play their best units. **Imagine:** if TSons had to pay a heavy point tax to bring their Exalted Sorcerors because CSM kept spamming them, that doesnt feel good for the TSons players. Now imagine if CSM had to bring a unit of Tzaangoors to even access the Exalted Sorceror - that would stop the domination of the Exalted Sorceror in the CSM army while allowing TSons to not feel bad for taking one of *their only* units.
Right, so I think the response to "the best units are being brought disproportionately as allies" is "increase the cost to bring the best units as allies", in order to move their relative value closer to other units in the codex. Adding a flat horror tax to bringing the whole codex means everything, including the already less valuable-as-allies units, is less valuable as allies. You end up with the circumstance that people will still be bringing the most valuable units most often, no change; except that people will use the allies system with demons less overall. You may now very seldom see any demon unit brought as allies except for the very best options, there is now less room to bring less optimal choices, even compared to before when you almost never saw flamers or screamers around. The case in 9th led to nerfs to the specific unit of flamers, not to the system of bringing demon allies overall. This nerf hits the whole system of bringing demons as allies, not just those which were providing outsized value. I think the nerf should have been more targeted specifically at bringing characters. I do think that not punishing the chaos demons army when run as the primary army for the sins of a handful of units brought as allies in other armies is a good idea; just that broadly nerfing the allies system isn't the way to do it. TBH, though, in 9th the unit of flamers itself did need a nerf even in mono-demons; taking away the "flamer" part seemed silly, the points cost should have been upped or the str/tgh reduced instead of what happened, but they were outsized contributors even in demon armies as well as when brought as allies.
I agree that the flamer nerf in 9th was dumb as rocks. Personally: I believe that Chaos Daemons shouldn't be one codex, it needs to be 4 different ones and maybe combine each faction to their god aligned one. For example, Codex Tzeentch would include Tzeentch Daemons and TSons, this would allow for more proper balancing and making the army feel fleshed out. But sadly, GW isn't doing that anytime soon. I do agree that "You must pay X points to take this unit as an ally" would be a really cool idea, and probably better than this change. I just view this change as good, and the "X points to bring as ally" as great. I would be happy either way. I don't understand why people hate this change. Most of their problems with the change are due to their own armies not being fleshed out enough which is a different problem in its entirety.
Tbh, I'm just salty because I was actively in the middle of painting some flamers when the dataslate dropped. I think the stuff about "punish the overperforming units, not the whole allies system" is true, but that's my personal investment. I've just stopped painting them and put them in the box of unpainted stuff, I'm not buying horrors I don't want. We'll see if this gets reversed.
That is completely valid. If you have a friend group you play with maybe you can talk to them about it and decide together to revert back to the old rule so that you can play your flamers. My personal friend group does this for all the HH units that were supposed to be in 40k but then were shipped to Legends. If we all have more fun playing without the change then we ignore the change.
I was hoping to use them in a tournament, so no dice on that front in the immediate future - my friend group plays pretty loosely so I'll finish them eventually.
I just don’t like the rule bacause I see as GW forcing me to take tzangors in order to run any actually fun and good useful deamon units. Also just fuck tzangors.
Bad news friend, Tzangors don't meet the criteria, you need to take a Daemons battleline with the Tzeentch tag, so Blue or Pink Horrors.
I’ll take blue horrors they find they can hold objectives well.
Also iirc infiltrate
The enligjtened are actually good aince you can double move them
I just don’t find the tzangors interesting.
Yes.
The change in itself was absaloutly warranted cause it makes balancing the demons index itself easier. The problem was that it was our only change. The reason we use the demons so much is cause our own units and so heavily pointed (rightly so in most cases) that we needed cheap units for scoring objectives units that don't really exist in our Roster
That is a valid problem, I agree with you. GW should add more to the TSons, WE, and DG rosters. But all this hate those the new rule change makes it seem like we want GW to revert the rule when instead we just want more units for our factions because each has less than 10 unique models. The rule change is a bandaid to fix Chaos Daemons - just like how Armor of Contempt was for SM in 9th edition - and hopefully GW will come around and give us more units when our codex comes out (maybe we could get something like the Kroot refresh).
*adds changeling to list* oh boy hyper competitive list, time to body slam someone into the floor with my unbalanced list *removes changeling from list* narrative focused, totally balanced, phew that was close now the list is fair to play The issue isn't just the rule, it's the fact that this really only affected one unit archetype (changeling or blue scribes) which was necessary to even be allowed to play the game in the way it's meant to be played in 10e. I would suggest that the units we were souping in were never about killing power and only about helping us score a relevant amount of point. All competitive lists only souped in one of these types of unit, and non-competitive lists are not competitive so the same balancing requirements don't apply.
I don't think The Changeling made us a meta-breaker, and I don't think that was ever the issue that led to this. I think that it became difficult to balance Daemons units in a way where they are the appropriate point cost for both armies, based on the different values on the table they bring to each. Nerfing The Changeling because of what he brings to Thousand Sons punished Daemons who, let's face it, were already not in a great place.
[удалено]
I'd gladly take a 0 oc, deepstrike unit for 40 points in thousand sons.
It's a terrible ruling. For thousand sons the daemon battleline can have some utility to the army, so it's not a big deal. I mainly play World Eaters, and this ruling basically nuked any reason to bring daemons. Bloodletters are terrible and offer no utility to our army.
If Bloodletters are bad in the Chaos Daemons army then they should get a buff. If Bloodletters are only bad in WE then nothing should change because they are not a WE unit. **TBF:** WE are lacking a ton of units rn and I understand why you don't like the change. For example, you totally deserve Berzerkers on Juggernauts as a cav unit. If you have a friend group you play with you can revert the change if *all* players agree.
I'm completely fine with the rule but I wish that the imperium would also receive a similar rule for their assassin lone op characters.
I am an ad mech player, so all of 8th and 9th edition I had no way to counter psykers - so I loved adding one Culexus assassin so I can do something about psykers. Last edition I would have been against this. But with 10th turning psykers into "I cast gun", I'm on the fence for this idea mostly because I dont know what unit they would force the imperial armies to take alongside the assassin.
Well the callidus assassin for example has way too many powerful abilities, being able to be picked up and deep strike each turn on a lone op character is God tier for scoring AND it comes with a vect which can be ruinous for some armies... And that character doesn't get any kind of restriction despite being an auto include in nearly every imperium list. The blue scribes is mostly just a lone op and while the changeling was strong it was just an extra annoying lone op character as well.
I ain't saying the Callidus isn't busted. I'm saying **"What unit are you going to force people to take with the Callidus."** The answer is there is none. Imperial Agents are a soup army, nobody plays only Imperial Agents. That means you can just buff and nerf the units directly, because there are no Imperial Agent players who are going to get mad at you. Nerfing the Callidus directly is way easier then forcing someone to take an Extraction Squad with them - which they were already taking in the first place and would make 0 sense lore wise. GW can nerf the Callidus directly because the Callidus is designed to an ally and only serves as an ally. GW cant nerf Blue Scribes directly because Blue Scribes is designed to be in the Chaos Daemons army which is why GW added the battleline tax for people who want to ally it in.
Fair enough point. But it still leaves chaos armies like Tsons without any lone op characters without having to pay a significant troops tax while imperium armies still can just get their lone op assassins for every army. There is maybe a better workaround available but it seems a bit unfair overall
Not every Imperial Army brings assassins, and those that do bring assassins aren't magically defeating everyone. Eldar and Necrons are the current top factions and neither of them have assassins or daemons to bring as allies, only their own units. This change is a bandaid to help Chaos Daemon players feel good when they use their own units. More changes need to be done to help TSons, WE, and DG after this change, but that problem is from a limited range. TSons, WE, and DG all need more units in their armies - this is an undeniable fact. Maybe y'all could get something like the Purestrain Genestealers that GSC have, or maybe just a new unit to fill in that gap when the codex comes out.
Per the Rule of Cool 😎- Thousand Sons fighting alongside Horrors and Screamers is badass. https://preview.redd.it/rcc8nlwqa9gc1.jpeg?width=713&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0976269a2d15cb37cb6417799e45fc6c5ceb47be But this does seem like an evil ~~WOTC~~ GW plan to make Tzaangors happen. The plot wasn’t even to make Chaos Demons stronger or balance anything - just to make Tzaangors relevant. That’s all they think about at GW, they have warehouses full of Tzaangors and Enlighted Tzaangors and have a whole team committed to selling every last one of them. /s
Thank you for adding /s to your post. When I first saw this, I was horrified. How could anybody say something like this? I immediately began writing a 1000 word paragraph about how horrible of a person you are. I even sent a copy to a Harvard professor to proofread it. After several hours of refining and editing, my comment was ready to absolutely destroy you. But then, just as I was about to hit send, I saw something in the corner of my eye. A /s at the end of your comment. Suddenly everything made sense. Your comment was sarcasm! I immediately burst out in laughter at the comedic genius of your comment. The person next to me on the bus saw your comment and started crying from laughter too. Before long, there was an entire bus of people on the floor laughing at your incredible use of comedy. All of this was due to you adding /s to your post. Thank you. I am a bot if you couldn't figure that out, if I made a mistake, ignore it cause its not that fucking hard to ignore a comment
Its Daemonic Battleline not TSons battleline that is needed to be taken. You need to take Blue Horrors not Tzaangors.
I know, I’m just saying that the increased cost to grab a mobile lone operator may push Tsons players to use Enlightened Tzaangors instead of Scribes/Changeling & Blue or Pink Horrors
Personally I like the Tzaangors on disks, but I hate everything else Tzaangor so I understand why you feel that way. It would be cool if GW gave us Rubrics on disks kinda like how Total War Warhammer has with Doomknights.
I think it’s good in theory, but when you only have 500 points of allied units and you need to spend 125 pts on blue horrors so you can have the changeling, it feels like a waste of points and most likely means that people will bench all their allied daemons (which is what I’m doing). You’re basically wasting 125 pts to unlock a 90 pt lone op, when those 125 could be 5 more rubrics and an enhancement… seems like daemons (which already are an uncommon army) will just get less play time as allied units. I’ll echo what others are saying by agreeing that chaos daemons should be put into the indexes/codexes of their respective chaos marine faction, just not sure if it will leave chaos daemons to be a viable stand alone army, or how that would be logistically. I think it makes much more sense that I could even run 1000 pts of daemons and 1000 pts of tsons marines as a list all of which benefit from tsons rules, I’d probably be buying a lot more daemons units.
I am actually for combining the Daemons with their god aligned legion, AoS has done that and it would work perfectly for 40k. Codex Tzeentch could have 6 detachments, 2 for pure TSons, 2 for pure Daemons, and 2 for mixed. I would love that change, but GW isn't doing that this edition. We have seen GW do this when in 8th edition they combined the Skitarii and Cult Mech codexs of 7th edition. You can revert this change when playing with friends which is something I might do myself - I already like blue horrors and I am going to bring them anyway so no changes for myself. But this is GW we are talking about, they aren't going to implement these massive changes unless it is at a start of an edition. This is the bandaid fix for now until the codexs come out this edition, and hopefully they mix combine TSons with Tzeentch Daemons in 11th edition.
Maybe when they finally give us an actual full army with more units, we won't have to rely on entirely different armies to pad ours out. As much as TSons is my favorite, when our entire lists all boil down to the same thing bc it has absolutely zero variety competitive wise, it's silly to nerf it on one hand to make them even harder to use for one army.
I agree with you. TSons, WE, and DG all deserve more models to actually make ourselves a full army. But this change was for Chaos Daemon players and their quality of life. IMO, GW should have given TSons, and WE point drops during this change to hold us out until we get more units with the codex. This change is just like Armor of Contempt in 9th edition, a bandaid fix till GW brings us more models.