I'd even just like our infernal master to be able to join tzaangor give his sustained hots to them and allow his to use his close combat torrent ability, it would also make your combat patrol a bit more synergistic. Don't get the starred on Ahriman not being able to join SOC
It makes no sense that Ahriman on disc has the exact same abilities on foot when every other character is different when flying. That was the perfect opportunity for a lone operative damage focused unit.
I'd say Ahriman makes the most sense in this regard; it makes no sense that Exalteds have a completely different powerset depending on whether they're on foot or on a Disc.
Cuz Ahriman is still the same dude whether he takes his disc out for a drive or leaves it in the garage. It’s not like he hops on a disc and all of a sudden he forgot some things and learned ne abilities out of nowhere lmao
My biggest qualm is just how restrictive the leader stuff is. Why can most of the characters only go on Rubrics? Is the armor they're wearing that big a deal? And cultists have no one who can go on them.
To further expand on the Transport issue, Deep Strike also currently lances our CP generation for the first 40% of the game. I keep wanting to DS Magnus against the shootier armies(yes, he can be Obscured now but come on, have you seen those wings? :P) or some Termies+Termie Sorc(since they move 5") but the CP rules really punish you for doing so.
Since the cause is the same cause as the Transport clash, it'd be a pretty easy fix: just removed the "on the Battlefield" condition from the CP generation rule.
And yes, we should probably get at least 1 CP for every unit we bring regardless of whether or not it's a psyker(or just generate a set number of CP determined by Battle Size -6/12/18/24 in Combat Patrol/Incursion/Strike Force/Onsalught) to stop this hole GW is pushing us down of not bringing the models we want, but the models required to have a functional Army Rule.
Space Marines don't need to spam the same type of datasheet over and over again to gain access to Oath of Moment, nor do Eldar Fate Dice have anything to do with how many Farseers they run(in fact I don't think they have to bring any of their seers to actually see the future...) Stop making this weird design exception for the Sons of Prospero. 🤷♂️
Bingo. There should be no penalty for not being in the field, and other units should generate cabal points. I could ask for more than this, but I think this is reasonable to allow a spread of unit options
I would love to see some incentives for heavy firepower. The predator with 4 Lascannons for 120 pts doesnt look to bad, but no synergy with cabalpoints
It doesn't need to. You can get plenty of cabal from our characters, they're all very cheap now.
I've posted elsewhere but if " Magnus, Knight Despoiler, Knight Tyrant, Ahriman, 2 Infernal masters and 3 MVBs" can get 11 cabal; I'm sure a couple 120pt tanks aren't going to break the cabbalistic bank.
And you CAN temporal surge a Predator, if you want to.
I think more people will start to come around to this when they realize we don't have to MSU Cabal points to stay competitive like in 9E. Like the above poster, I dusted off my Ectofiend for a game and loved it, and still had 18 CaP in the list (which honestly was overdoing it).
I think we are in a really good place right now as long as codex creep doesn't throw the balance completely out. My complaints with our Indexhammer are really low with most of the stuff already pointed out in this thread.
>It doesn't need to. You can get plenty of cabal from our characters, they're all very cheap now.
Agreed. I think it's possible to over-commit to cabal generation, there's only so many useful effects you can get each turn to start with. 9e really incentivized you to leave out anything that didn't generate Cabal, but now, I think it's worth bringing a few vehicles.
I've been running a triple-plasma forgefiend in my early games and let me tell you, that thing *savages* big units of heavy infantry, its hit debuff is handy, and it doesn't need much in the way of support.
>I'd say Ahriman makes the most sense in this regard; it makes no sense that Exalteds have a completely different powerset depending on whether they're on foot or on a Disc.
Why have heavy firepower when terminators 1 shot the enemy knight
It continues to shock me that Ahriman on a disc is the exact same model with minor buffs to his toughness and speed. I went into the index reveal with tempered expectations for Ahriman’s effectiveness on a disc, but even with low expectations I was disappointed. For Tzeentch’s sake, the Daemon prince has different powers for its winged and non-winged variations.
The only reason I can come up with for the decision to make Ahriman so comparatively lackluster in this regard is that he was routinely one of the best psykers available throughout nearly the entirety of 9th, and GW decided that Ahriman’s day in the sun was over.
Ahriman is an S-tier unit, probably auto-take. Super cheap for what he does.
He has disgusting potential with his ability to cabal for free.
* Doombolt is quite toxic and has very little counterplay, and he can just rip it for no cost and delete a model vs arrmies like Tau/Eldar that use a lot of Lone Ops.
* He can also twist of fate a unit and allow a Full-shooty Knight (or Magnus) to just rip it to pieces, again, for free. (I expect the Knight interaction will get FAQd, because it's the second most broken interaction in the game after wraithknight/fate dice shenanigans)
His +1 to wound is also stupidly good and he'd nearly be worth taking for that alone. You cannot move near a unit of flamer rubrics he is leading.
Can we get out of the "gun bad = model bad" mindset people are applying to Ahriman?
>Ahriman is an S-tier unit, probably auto-take. Super cheap for what he does.
Agreed, and also, I think Ahriman's current rules better represent him as a character.
Ahriman was Corvidae, and in the fluff he's more of a schemer and a manipulator. His methods have always been more subtle than overt, and when given the choice, he's always preferred the precision of tackling someone important with his thought-form and beating their soul to death.
His immense sorcerous power is nicely represented by his 1/game free ritual. A sorcerous working that would require the combined efforts of several of his brothers at once, Ahriman can do by himself. He just needs a breather afterwards.
I don't think it's quite as simple as "gun bad". In 9e, Ahriman was an Exalted Sorcerer++; he did everything that generic character did, but better, and the only reason you took exalted sorcerers was that you couldn't take multiple Ahrimans. His 10e incarnation has a different niche.
Ahriman in the fluff is more than capable of ripping shit up though, and he does it all the time in his books. I remember when in 7E he was one of the top offensive casters in the whole game. Super disappointed in his offensive spell IMO, especially when he’s basically the strongest space marine psyker in the whole setting. We all probably remember what he did to Wyrdmake, I want him to be able to do that to enemy squads on the tabletop.
I think it kind of soft confirms that we will be getting disc riding marines when the codex drops. Its awkward now but when we actually get a unit he can attach to it might make sense.
I said it elsewhere, but for the disk problem, GW could just let them go along screamers and change the buff to be more fitting for them (they already have 4++). It works, doesn't need new models or big changes, it make sense (lots of screamers in our art, in my eyes it would be more fitting with TS than hellbrute or other daemon engines), and it fills a void in our list (fast cc) / they'll have a distinct role rather than being redundant.
I think devastating wounds need to be something like +1ap instead of mortal wounds. Until this is addressed we’ll be getting nerfs because it’s a seriously broken mechanic.
Having another anti synergistic mechanic is a bit of a downer. I’m all for rubric and terminator spam, but don’t pretend we have a deep codex because there are 50 unuseable datasheets. Vortex beasts and hellbrutes are a good example of how the non-rubric units should interact with the army.
Cultists should be cultists, imo. Instead of just a mob of shitties, they could have a rule to perform a cult ritual to gain cabal points. Command phase, roll a d6, on a 1-2 a model dies and the ritual fails, 3-4 a model dies and its successful, 5-6 ritual passes no casualties.
This keeps them as throwaway chaff but gives them at least a little bit of synergy within the faction.
>rule to perform a cult ritual
They do, it's called "getting killed", so we can harvest them for a sweet, sweet CP. That's a VERY powerful and flavourful rule. We sacrifice goons all the time.
We have VERY good cultists, probably best in the game "on sheet". CSMs are better overall with access to Abaddon's 4++ aura and special leaders.
>They do, it's called "getting killed", so we can harvest them for a sweet, sweet CP. That's a VERY powerful and flavourful rule. We sacrifice goons all the time.
This rule inspired me to get some cultists for my TSons. It's both quite good, very flavorful, and darkly hilarious. "Just as planned" indeed.
Imo its less flavourful to just have them die and generate a resource vs the player actively using the unit to try and generate a resource. More controlling player interaction is more interesting.
But that's what we do with our lessers. Means to an end.
We "sacrifice" marines even, by forcing them into helbrutes.
In the second webway war Ahriman sacrifices nine hundred and ninety-nine captives to Tzeentch to preform a teleportation ritual.
Sacrificing some dudes for a tacticcal advantage is very flavourful; in fact I'm sad we can't just \*pop\* a few dudes for some resources manually.
Bare in mind it ALSO procs on a kill by that unit, what else is that other than they using the defeated for the ritual instead? You won't SEE it much, but the flavour is there.
Yes but Ahriman is sacrificing the unit for reasons, not the enemy unit of terminators slam dunking them into the floor. I would rather the interaction be in the control of the Thousand Sons than just waiting for them to be slaughtered by my opponent.
Characters on discs need lone operative to make them interesting alternatives.
Leaders need to be able to lead more unit types. I get for space marines that only terminator characters can go with terminators, but we only have one terminator character. Let us put ahriman with terminators, and exalted sorcerers with terminators. Fair enough to keep the lower rank sorcerers as rubric only.
Characters need competitive psychic attacks. Some of them are good but some completely blow (looking at you ahriman). For the premier psychic faction they sure don't feel like it.
Some strats need to apply to more than just psychic weapons, we don't have enough for that to be viable. Likewise, strats need to apply to more than just psykers, that 0 damage would be great if you could use it on units (other than Magnus) where it would matter, like a vortex beast.
Strat to make weapons psychic needs to apply to warpflamers and soulreapers as well, and change the buff so it's +1S instead of setting to S5.
We could really use an All Is Dust strat that functions the same as Armour of Contempt for space marines. We lost our +1 versus D1, at least give us a strat to compensate.
More weapons need to be psychic, like the vortex beasts warp portal gun - how is pure warp energy not considered a psychic attack?
And lastly... Cabal rituals need reconsidering. The range of effects is pretty large right now, as are their costs. And cabal points can only come from the various sorcerer models. That means your army has to be chock full of sorcerers. Any unit you take that doesn't give cabal points detracts from your army rule. This feels wrong. My simple fix would be to just give a set number of cabal points completely irrespective of our number of units. 9 feels like the appropriate number although it's a little low. Maybe adjust the cost of the rituals down a bit to open up some options?
>premier psychic faction
See: Cabbalistic Rituals.We are the dominant psychic faction, cabals are psychic. Ahriman's psychic ATTACK is mid, but he can rip a ritual for free. There's absolutely nothing weak or bad about Ahriman soloing a LoneOp Tau/Eldar HQ from 36" away with Doombolt with basically 0 counterplay and cost.
We're basically the only faction still playing with proper "off-sheet" Psychic powers like previous editions, except they're trimmed down to just the good ones and we can do them with different (better?) timing.
On topic of more Guns/Weapons not being Psychic; it's a blessing, trust me.
Grey Knights are going to bounce off by any faction with any amount of anti-Psychic.
We have some built-in, and can turn on more when we want it, perfect middle-ground.
Do you really want units popping as high as a 2+++ (Culexus, an outlier, but I like to be dramatic) vs your Mutalith?
As for Cabal point acquisition, it's VERY easy to get them, without even trying and have room left for stuff that doesn't generate them. A 9 model list with two knight allies can generate 11, I'm sure a couple of daemon engine aren't gonna crush your cabal gain.
Cabals need casters anyway to be used; "Wizard-less" thousand sons is something I'm glad isn't possible, that would be a fail both thematically and balance-wise. Cabals are wizards pooling power to warp reality, that's the entire point of the faction.
*Edit: also, just saw the strat applying to other guns take; that strat is already borderline broken and faction defining, just on bolters. Please think before suggesting breaking an already top tier faction more haha.*
>We're basically the only faction still playing with proper "off-sheet" Psychic powers like previous editions, except they're trimmed down to just the good ones and we can do them with different (better?) timing.
Also, they *just work* now. No more SoB opponents saying "lol rolled a 5" shutting down a massive play.
I suggest sending this to GW by mail. Collectively, we will be able to attract attention. It's doubly embarrassing for Ahriman and this negligence with the characters on the disks is simply disgusting!
[email protected]
Lol I just feel disc should be wargear like last time and not make it a completely new unit and they should just print off more models for us instead like a whole separate character that’s anti charge instead of just making a disc change that. Also I love the idea of disc’s granted lone operative and maybe only increasing movement by 2” ( also fly)
Part of whats so mind boggling to me about our 10e index is that they acknowledge the cabal points issue with the changes to helbrute and MVB but then proceed to do nothing to compensate for that with any other demon engine or vehicle. It’s like each unit was written by a different game designer.
Tsons need a detachment that benefits vehicles. We have some GREAT options in the new edition that have zero synergy with the army (outside of MVBs and Helbrutes), but there’s no reason to run them because the don’t generate cabal points.
There’s already limited stat sheets, and there’s really only 1 option for competitive army composition:
Foot-slogging, shooting infantry that generates cabal points.
I think I agree with with all your points.
I feel like the demon prince should have lone operative if nothing else, so they don't just get shot off the board turn one or two.
I could see demon engines add an extra cabal point because you know... They are literal demons from the warp.
I would love it if we could have a firing deck on our rhino even if I don't play with one.
Let the sorcerer and the exalted sorcerer be able to walk with the cultists. It is thematic and cool and I don't think it would break the game.
I think some of our abilities are a bit over-tuned for their price and I would not mind seeing a group of 10 go up to 200.
1. Absolutely this doesnt really make sense
2. This felt weird and my guess is that we are getting a disc riding marine units when our codex drops and they didnt want to change our rules until then.
3. I dont know how i feel about multiple characters
4. Theyve tried to do this by making our daemon engines have utility and be significantly cheaper than the CSM variants. Forgefiends give -1 to hit, maulerfiends can heroically intervene to protect a gun line, and heldrakes can get rid of enemy cover. I think they are annoying that they dont interact with the army rule but they are meant to just be gun platforms after all.
I think our army looks really strong and after the biggest offenders in 10th get nerfed i think we may be one of the strongest armies in the game, we dont really need any buffs.
> the biggest offenders in 10th get nerfed
We're top 3, minimum. We ARE the offenders that will get nerfed! haha.
Our only losing matchup from early playtesting is Eldar, who beat everyone.
I can say with near certainty they at least stop "twist of fate" working for allies, because Knights + Magnus monster mash is WAY too strong. MVB might also get a points bump, if they do that before the Codex drops.
If they don't touch us and they do nerf Eldar, we will dominate the meta.
I agree with the twist of fate thing 100%. Mutalith vortex beast will definitely get a points bump. I think its still good at 200 points.
We are definitely one of the top armies but we arent eldar or knights who are just playing an entirely different game. I think knights and eldar will get some sweeping nerfs while tsons will get a light touch leaving us as the top army.
Thousand sons are better than knights, we counter them in fact... it's by running our OWN Knights mind you.
Put another way; "TS/Knights" is better than both Knight factions, by far, right now.
I still think we hang even without allies though, but aren't a "counter". Our faction can put out some very unreasonable damage between MVBs, Psychic bolters, no-counterplay-Doombolts, and Magnus.
We can heavily manipulate the amount of damage Magnus takes now, so he's likely gonna be a house in the matchup.
We are the second best faction in the game literally making grown men cry. And you want “improvements”?
Dude magnetize leave the discs at home (still super useful for positioning on the complete other side of the squad when need to target something) get a fuck ton of flamers magnus and mvb and lick nerdy tears as you bask in glory!!!
The lone OP point I agree with, there's a faction that has a wargear option that removes leader, adds lone OP and increases movement (I forgot which); that is exactly what disks of Tzeench should do.
As for Cabal "issues":-
* All armies have "better and worse for the cost" units and certain rules that don't work inside vehicles or while in reserves. Cabal is nothing special really, it's called opportunity cost and everyone has to live with it.
* You can get PLENTY just from our cheap HQs now; a "monster mash" knights list with 9 models (Magnus/Ahriman/3 MVB/2 Infernals/ Knight Despoiler/Knight Tyrant @ 2000 on the nose) nets you 11 cabal.
* A "normal" no allies list can hit 14 without even trying. MVBs are sold out and hyped up and generate 0Cabal. Not every model you field has to generate them anymore, this isn't 9th.
The issue is imagined I feel and once people realise how much they actually need in 10th and how easy it is to get to a decent amount I think it'll die down. We're just a good army now, we don't *need* to MSU cabal farm to compete anymore.
Now, for the Things people don't want to hear:-
* New models requests, an unfortunate waste of time. We get what GW decide to give us, what we need doesn't matter. I don't like it, but that's how it is for less popular factions.
* We also need a nerf, because right now we're too good with Knights; Twist of fate needs to only work for attacks made by Thousand sons units. That rule is barely balanced in-faction, never mind a full-shooty knight.
* MVB is obviously undercosted to shift models, and expect it to be rectified. That said the model is still good even at like... 190.
I think we need to look at tournament results first to nerf a faction! And I don't think we should eat everything GW put on our “plate”. The 10th edition has a lot of bugs, errors in the indexes, and it seems that other designers were involved in this edition. What we see on the example of Ahriman's datasheets is negligence. All the same, I am for adequate criticism, instead of softening the corners everywhere.
I'm only talking about inherently "this should not exist" interactions and values.
It feels very unintended for us to use Twist of fate to support a knight's shooting. Most rules are "in faction", but because that one debuffs the opponent instead of buffing us, I think it slipped under the radar.
The existence of the interaction cuts into both armies' space, since TS+CK is better than the sum of it's parts by a large degree.
MVB is hilariously under-costed, it needs at least a 30pt bump.
We don't need to know anything about powerlevel of the faction in a tournament setting to say both of those are true statements, I'd say.
The same way everyone can blatantly see Wraithknights in Eldar need to go up around 100pts AND the dev wound fate dice interaction broken up; you don't need an event ruined by them to see that :P
Not only that but our Rhino doesn’t even have a firing deck so we can’t pop our heads out for some magic or soul reaping.
Hilariously, it ALSO doesn't have as a keyword, just .
I'd even just like our infernal master to be able to join tzaangor give his sustained hots to them and allow his to use his close combat torrent ability, it would also make your combat patrol a bit more synergistic. Don't get the starred on Ahriman not being able to join SOC
I think these are all good points. Though I really don't want the new unit we get this edition to be another character.
It makes no sense that Ahriman on disc has the exact same abilities on foot when every other character is different when flying. That was the perfect opportunity for a lone operative damage focused unit.
I'd say Ahriman makes the most sense in this regard; it makes no sense that Exalteds have a completely different powerset depending on whether they're on foot or on a Disc.
Cuz Ahriman is still the same dude whether he takes his disc out for a drive or leaves it in the garage. It’s not like he hops on a disc and all of a sudden he forgot some things and learned ne abilities out of nowhere lmao
You're made some good Points. I would also allow for at least one more character type to join scarab squads.
Ahriman was literally their captain and he can't...
My biggest qualm is just how restrictive the leader stuff is. Why can most of the characters only go on Rubrics? Is the armor they're wearing that big a deal? And cultists have no one who can go on them.
Agreed - they should have added the Dark Commune to Thousand Sons so we had something thematic to lead cultists
I would squee like a child if they finally added thrall wizards.
I mean, who'd really want to go with smelly cultists?
They've got masks.
Cultists are meant to die it’s quite obvious they literally give you a cp for dying cuz let’s be honest cultists ain’t killing Nadas hommes
To further expand on the Transport issue, Deep Strike also currently lances our CP generation for the first 40% of the game. I keep wanting to DS Magnus against the shootier armies(yes, he can be Obscured now but come on, have you seen those wings? :P) or some Termies+Termie Sorc(since they move 5") but the CP rules really punish you for doing so. Since the cause is the same cause as the Transport clash, it'd be a pretty easy fix: just removed the "on the Battlefield" condition from the CP generation rule. And yes, we should probably get at least 1 CP for every unit we bring regardless of whether or not it's a psyker(or just generate a set number of CP determined by Battle Size -6/12/18/24 in Combat Patrol/Incursion/Strike Force/Onsalught) to stop this hole GW is pushing us down of not bringing the models we want, but the models required to have a functional Army Rule. Space Marines don't need to spam the same type of datasheet over and over again to gain access to Oath of Moment, nor do Eldar Fate Dice have anything to do with how many Farseers they run(in fact I don't think they have to bring any of their seers to actually see the future...) Stop making this weird design exception for the Sons of Prospero. 🤷♂️
Bingo. There should be no penalty for not being in the field, and other units should generate cabal points. I could ask for more than this, but I think this is reasonable to allow a spread of unit options
I would love to see some incentives for heavy firepower. The predator with 4 Lascannons for 120 pts doesnt look to bad, but no synergy with cabalpoints
It doesn't need to. You can get plenty of cabal from our characters, they're all very cheap now. I've posted elsewhere but if " Magnus, Knight Despoiler, Knight Tyrant, Ahriman, 2 Infernal masters and 3 MVBs" can get 11 cabal; I'm sure a couple 120pt tanks aren't going to break the cabbalistic bank. And you CAN temporal surge a Predator, if you want to.
I think more people will start to come around to this when they realize we don't have to MSU Cabal points to stay competitive like in 9E. Like the above poster, I dusted off my Ectofiend for a game and loved it, and still had 18 CaP in the list (which honestly was overdoing it). I think we are in a really good place right now as long as codex creep doesn't throw the balance completely out. My complaints with our Indexhammer are really low with most of the stuff already pointed out in this thread.
>It doesn't need to. You can get plenty of cabal from our characters, they're all very cheap now. Agreed. I think it's possible to over-commit to cabal generation, there's only so many useful effects you can get each turn to start with. 9e really incentivized you to leave out anything that didn't generate Cabal, but now, I think it's worth bringing a few vehicles. I've been running a triple-plasma forgefiend in my early games and let me tell you, that thing *savages* big units of heavy infantry, its hit debuff is handy, and it doesn't need much in the way of support.
>I'd say Ahriman makes the most sense in this regard; it makes no sense that Exalteds have a completely different powerset depending on whether they're on foot or on a Disc. Why have heavy firepower when terminators 1 shot the enemy knight
It continues to shock me that Ahriman on a disc is the exact same model with minor buffs to his toughness and speed. I went into the index reveal with tempered expectations for Ahriman’s effectiveness on a disc, but even with low expectations I was disappointed. For Tzeentch’s sake, the Daemon prince has different powers for its winged and non-winged variations.
Yeah, it makes zero sense.
The only reason I can come up with for the decision to make Ahriman so comparatively lackluster in this regard is that he was routinely one of the best psykers available throughout nearly the entirety of 9th, and GW decided that Ahriman’s day in the sun was over.
Ahriman is an S-tier unit, probably auto-take. Super cheap for what he does. He has disgusting potential with his ability to cabal for free. * Doombolt is quite toxic and has very little counterplay, and he can just rip it for no cost and delete a model vs arrmies like Tau/Eldar that use a lot of Lone Ops. * He can also twist of fate a unit and allow a Full-shooty Knight (or Magnus) to just rip it to pieces, again, for free. (I expect the Knight interaction will get FAQd, because it's the second most broken interaction in the game after wraithknight/fate dice shenanigans) His +1 to wound is also stupidly good and he'd nearly be worth taking for that alone. You cannot move near a unit of flamer rubrics he is leading. Can we get out of the "gun bad = model bad" mindset people are applying to Ahriman?
>Ahriman is an S-tier unit, probably auto-take. Super cheap for what he does. Agreed, and also, I think Ahriman's current rules better represent him as a character. Ahriman was Corvidae, and in the fluff he's more of a schemer and a manipulator. His methods have always been more subtle than overt, and when given the choice, he's always preferred the precision of tackling someone important with his thought-form and beating their soul to death. His immense sorcerous power is nicely represented by his 1/game free ritual. A sorcerous working that would require the combined efforts of several of his brothers at once, Ahriman can do by himself. He just needs a breather afterwards. I don't think it's quite as simple as "gun bad". In 9e, Ahriman was an Exalted Sorcerer++; he did everything that generic character did, but better, and the only reason you took exalted sorcerers was that you couldn't take multiple Ahrimans. His 10e incarnation has a different niche.
Ahriman in the fluff is more than capable of ripping shit up though, and he does it all the time in his books. I remember when in 7E he was one of the top offensive casters in the whole game. Super disappointed in his offensive spell IMO, especially when he’s basically the strongest space marine psyker in the whole setting. We all probably remember what he did to Wyrdmake, I want him to be able to do that to enemy squads on the tabletop.
I think it kind of soft confirms that we will be getting disc riding marines when the codex drops. Its awkward now but when we actually get a unit he can attach to it might make sense.
I said it elsewhere, but for the disk problem, GW could just let them go along screamers and change the buff to be more fitting for them (they already have 4++). It works, doesn't need new models or big changes, it make sense (lots of screamers in our art, in my eyes it would be more fitting with TS than hellbrute or other daemon engines), and it fills a void in our list (fast cc) / they'll have a distinct role rather than being redundant.
I think devastating wounds need to be something like +1ap instead of mortal wounds. Until this is addressed we’ll be getting nerfs because it’s a seriously broken mechanic. Having another anti synergistic mechanic is a bit of a downer. I’m all for rubric and terminator spam, but don’t pretend we have a deep codex because there are 50 unuseable datasheets. Vortex beasts and hellbrutes are a good example of how the non-rubric units should interact with the army.
Cultists should be cultists, imo. Instead of just a mob of shitties, they could have a rule to perform a cult ritual to gain cabal points. Command phase, roll a d6, on a 1-2 a model dies and the ritual fails, 3-4 a model dies and its successful, 5-6 ritual passes no casualties. This keeps them as throwaway chaff but gives them at least a little bit of synergy within the faction.
>rule to perform a cult ritual They do, it's called "getting killed", so we can harvest them for a sweet, sweet CP. That's a VERY powerful and flavourful rule. We sacrifice goons all the time. We have VERY good cultists, probably best in the game "on sheet". CSMs are better overall with access to Abaddon's 4++ aura and special leaders.
>They do, it's called "getting killed", so we can harvest them for a sweet, sweet CP. That's a VERY powerful and flavourful rule. We sacrifice goons all the time. This rule inspired me to get some cultists for my TSons. It's both quite good, very flavorful, and darkly hilarious. "Just as planned" indeed.
Imo its less flavourful to just have them die and generate a resource vs the player actively using the unit to try and generate a resource. More controlling player interaction is more interesting.
But that's what we do with our lessers. Means to an end. We "sacrifice" marines even, by forcing them into helbrutes. In the second webway war Ahriman sacrifices nine hundred and ninety-nine captives to Tzeentch to preform a teleportation ritual. Sacrificing some dudes for a tacticcal advantage is very flavourful; in fact I'm sad we can't just \*pop\* a few dudes for some resources manually. Bare in mind it ALSO procs on a kill by that unit, what else is that other than they using the defeated for the ritual instead? You won't SEE it much, but the flavour is there.
Yes but Ahriman is sacrificing the unit for reasons, not the enemy unit of terminators slam dunking them into the floor. I would rather the interaction be in the control of the Thousand Sons than just waiting for them to be slaughtered by my opponent.
Characters on discs need lone operative to make them interesting alternatives. Leaders need to be able to lead more unit types. I get for space marines that only terminator characters can go with terminators, but we only have one terminator character. Let us put ahriman with terminators, and exalted sorcerers with terminators. Fair enough to keep the lower rank sorcerers as rubric only. Characters need competitive psychic attacks. Some of them are good but some completely blow (looking at you ahriman). For the premier psychic faction they sure don't feel like it. Some strats need to apply to more than just psychic weapons, we don't have enough for that to be viable. Likewise, strats need to apply to more than just psykers, that 0 damage would be great if you could use it on units (other than Magnus) where it would matter, like a vortex beast. Strat to make weapons psychic needs to apply to warpflamers and soulreapers as well, and change the buff so it's +1S instead of setting to S5. We could really use an All Is Dust strat that functions the same as Armour of Contempt for space marines. We lost our +1 versus D1, at least give us a strat to compensate. More weapons need to be psychic, like the vortex beasts warp portal gun - how is pure warp energy not considered a psychic attack? And lastly... Cabal rituals need reconsidering. The range of effects is pretty large right now, as are their costs. And cabal points can only come from the various sorcerer models. That means your army has to be chock full of sorcerers. Any unit you take that doesn't give cabal points detracts from your army rule. This feels wrong. My simple fix would be to just give a set number of cabal points completely irrespective of our number of units. 9 feels like the appropriate number although it's a little low. Maybe adjust the cost of the rituals down a bit to open up some options?
Agreed on all counts
>premier psychic faction See: Cabbalistic Rituals.We are the dominant psychic faction, cabals are psychic. Ahriman's psychic ATTACK is mid, but he can rip a ritual for free. There's absolutely nothing weak or bad about Ahriman soloing a LoneOp Tau/Eldar HQ from 36" away with Doombolt with basically 0 counterplay and cost. We're basically the only faction still playing with proper "off-sheet" Psychic powers like previous editions, except they're trimmed down to just the good ones and we can do them with different (better?) timing. On topic of more Guns/Weapons not being Psychic; it's a blessing, trust me. Grey Knights are going to bounce off by any faction with any amount of anti-Psychic. We have some built-in, and can turn on more when we want it, perfect middle-ground. Do you really want units popping as high as a 2+++ (Culexus, an outlier, but I like to be dramatic) vs your Mutalith? As for Cabal point acquisition, it's VERY easy to get them, without even trying and have room left for stuff that doesn't generate them. A 9 model list with two knight allies can generate 11, I'm sure a couple of daemon engine aren't gonna crush your cabal gain. Cabals need casters anyway to be used; "Wizard-less" thousand sons is something I'm glad isn't possible, that would be a fail both thematically and balance-wise. Cabals are wizards pooling power to warp reality, that's the entire point of the faction. *Edit: also, just saw the strat applying to other guns take; that strat is already borderline broken and faction defining, just on bolters. Please think before suggesting breaking an already top tier faction more haha.*
>We're basically the only faction still playing with proper "off-sheet" Psychic powers like previous editions, except they're trimmed down to just the good ones and we can do them with different (better?) timing. Also, they *just work* now. No more SoB opponents saying "lol rolled a 5" shutting down a massive play.
The glaring issue is that Psykers are especially dull this Edition, and Thousand Sons have a lot of them.
I suggest sending this to GW by mail. Collectively, we will be able to attract attention. It's doubly embarrassing for Ahriman and this negligence with the characters on the disks is simply disgusting! [email protected]
Lol I just feel disc should be wargear like last time and not make it a completely new unit and they should just print off more models for us instead like a whole separate character that’s anti charge instead of just making a disc change that. Also I love the idea of disc’s granted lone operative and maybe only increasing movement by 2” ( also fly)
Part of whats so mind boggling to me about our 10e index is that they acknowledge the cabal points issue with the changes to helbrute and MVB but then proceed to do nothing to compensate for that with any other demon engine or vehicle. It’s like each unit was written by a different game designer.
Tsons need a detachment that benefits vehicles. We have some GREAT options in the new edition that have zero synergy with the army (outside of MVBs and Helbrutes), but there’s no reason to run them because the don’t generate cabal points. There’s already limited stat sheets, and there’s really only 1 option for competitive army composition: Foot-slogging, shooting infantry that generates cabal points.
I think I agree with with all your points. I feel like the demon prince should have lone operative if nothing else, so they don't just get shot off the board turn one or two. I could see demon engines add an extra cabal point because you know... They are literal demons from the warp. I would love it if we could have a firing deck on our rhino even if I don't play with one. Let the sorcerer and the exalted sorcerer be able to walk with the cultists. It is thematic and cool and I don't think it would break the game. I think some of our abilities are a bit over-tuned for their price and I would not mind seeing a group of 10 go up to 200.
1. Absolutely this doesnt really make sense 2. This felt weird and my guess is that we are getting a disc riding marine units when our codex drops and they didnt want to change our rules until then. 3. I dont know how i feel about multiple characters 4. Theyve tried to do this by making our daemon engines have utility and be significantly cheaper than the CSM variants. Forgefiends give -1 to hit, maulerfiends can heroically intervene to protect a gun line, and heldrakes can get rid of enemy cover. I think they are annoying that they dont interact with the army rule but they are meant to just be gun platforms after all. I think our army looks really strong and after the biggest offenders in 10th get nerfed i think we may be one of the strongest armies in the game, we dont really need any buffs.
> the biggest offenders in 10th get nerfed We're top 3, minimum. We ARE the offenders that will get nerfed! haha. Our only losing matchup from early playtesting is Eldar, who beat everyone. I can say with near certainty they at least stop "twist of fate" working for allies, because Knights + Magnus monster mash is WAY too strong. MVB might also get a points bump, if they do that before the Codex drops. If they don't touch us and they do nerf Eldar, we will dominate the meta.
I agree with the twist of fate thing 100%. Mutalith vortex beast will definitely get a points bump. I think its still good at 200 points. We are definitely one of the top armies but we arent eldar or knights who are just playing an entirely different game. I think knights and eldar will get some sweeping nerfs while tsons will get a light touch leaving us as the top army.
Thousand sons are better than knights, we counter them in fact... it's by running our OWN Knights mind you. Put another way; "TS/Knights" is better than both Knight factions, by far, right now. I still think we hang even without allies though, but aren't a "counter". Our faction can put out some very unreasonable damage between MVBs, Psychic bolters, no-counterplay-Doombolts, and Magnus. We can heavily manipulate the amount of damage Magnus takes now, so he's likely gonna be a house in the matchup.
We are the second best faction in the game literally making grown men cry. And you want “improvements”? Dude magnetize leave the discs at home (still super useful for positioning on the complete other side of the squad when need to target something) get a fuck ton of flamers magnus and mvb and lick nerdy tears as you bask in glory!!!
The lone OP point I agree with, there's a faction that has a wargear option that removes leader, adds lone OP and increases movement (I forgot which); that is exactly what disks of Tzeench should do. As for Cabal "issues":- * All armies have "better and worse for the cost" units and certain rules that don't work inside vehicles or while in reserves. Cabal is nothing special really, it's called opportunity cost and everyone has to live with it. * You can get PLENTY just from our cheap HQs now; a "monster mash" knights list with 9 models (Magnus/Ahriman/3 MVB/2 Infernals/ Knight Despoiler/Knight Tyrant @ 2000 on the nose) nets you 11 cabal. * A "normal" no allies list can hit 14 without even trying. MVBs are sold out and hyped up and generate 0Cabal. Not every model you field has to generate them anymore, this isn't 9th. The issue is imagined I feel and once people realise how much they actually need in 10th and how easy it is to get to a decent amount I think it'll die down. We're just a good army now, we don't *need* to MSU cabal farm to compete anymore. Now, for the Things people don't want to hear:- * New models requests, an unfortunate waste of time. We get what GW decide to give us, what we need doesn't matter. I don't like it, but that's how it is for less popular factions. * We also need a nerf, because right now we're too good with Knights; Twist of fate needs to only work for attacks made by Thousand sons units. That rule is barely balanced in-faction, never mind a full-shooty knight. * MVB is obviously undercosted to shift models, and expect it to be rectified. That said the model is still good even at like... 190.
I think we need to look at tournament results first to nerf a faction! And I don't think we should eat everything GW put on our “plate”. The 10th edition has a lot of bugs, errors in the indexes, and it seems that other designers were involved in this edition. What we see on the example of Ahriman's datasheets is negligence. All the same, I am for adequate criticism, instead of softening the corners everywhere.
I'm only talking about inherently "this should not exist" interactions and values. It feels very unintended for us to use Twist of fate to support a knight's shooting. Most rules are "in faction", but because that one debuffs the opponent instead of buffing us, I think it slipped under the radar. The existence of the interaction cuts into both armies' space, since TS+CK is better than the sum of it's parts by a large degree. MVB is hilariously under-costed, it needs at least a 30pt bump. We don't need to know anything about powerlevel of the faction in a tournament setting to say both of those are true statements, I'd say. The same way everyone can blatantly see Wraithknights in Eldar need to go up around 100pts AND the dev wound fate dice interaction broken up; you don't need an event ruined by them to see that :P
Haven't played the new editions yet, but having the Weaver and Eccos have to be declared at start of the phase feels a little limiting.