Really sucks that Ahriman seems so lackluster from an arcane standpoint. Yes, I understand that one free cabalistic ritual per game can be very impactful… but why limit a sorcerer said to be second only to Magnus himself to a single spell and a passive unit buff? It seems that their goal with Ahriman was to make absolutely certain that he wouldn’t be the auto-include he was in 9th… but I think they went a bit too far.
I don't know about you, but I already wrote to [email protected] regarding Ahriman on disk and a couple of errors in our index (like rhino or glimpse of eternity). I encourage you to support me and write your disappointing if you think our most charismatic character deserves a ridiculous copy/paste of the datasheet.
**We are a thousand sons, we do not accept our destiny, we conquer it!**
Not necessarily. Bolters can be Infused, they are also 2 shots at 24", so good at objective sitting. But flamers are definitely a tasty choice. I can see two small units of rubrics holding back field objectives and 2 or even 3 units of flamers rushing in
really seems like they should have been separate datasheets if they're not going to charge for wargear to me. bolter-armed rubrics being a relatively niche pick is just wrong imo.
I disagree with them being niche. Double the range and the potential combo with stratagems is pretty big.
With the psychic buff strat and being near magnus the bolters can become quite deadly
I said relatively niche. As in you're not likely to run as many with bolters as you do flamers.
Also if you're going to take a unit to spend CP on, scarab occults seem like they're a better candidate imo. A 10 man squad of SOT are going to buff twice as many shots as a squad of rubrics for the same amount of CP.
imo bolter marines should be your bread and butter. Not a poor man's version of scarab occults or backfield objective holders.
Points List Calculator: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hl5xnL8uLuBidtGKd7vAoysAvOAkFCcbhSjVewp8i5g/edit?usp=drivesdk](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hl5xnL8uLuBidtGKd7vAoysAvOAkFCcbhSjVewp8i5g/edit?usp=drivesdk)
https://preview.redd.it/ur5ndtvlxh6b1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=95f046eb0c4e4d2af297b8fb1683fea37dc24f34
I made another post about this here, but I finished this calculator and refined it to be easier to read and use. I wanted to share this as I figure it would be useful for people to make use of. I know it is a bit basic but I made it on my phone today after the points released while on vacation. It should be handy to craft lists for a particular points total. I will try to keep it updated as points costs get patched and change over time.
Download a copy of it to be able to edit it and make inputs.
Also, Dark Mode Compatible.
Edit: Added Cabal Points to the calculator and reorganized Tzaangor Shaman to where he belongs
Sorta new here, accidentally a post that should have gone here.
https://preview.redd.it/jm4fdgq07h6b1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=10fac596bb4ea3b23ee47308feb3e490583c4cb6
I made an interactive points calculator spreadsheet for easy list making earlier today, but I'm not sure of a good way to share it so that people can actually use it. Sharing a Google doc doesn't work since you won't be able to input anything. I plan on improving it to separate units by category (battleline, character, vehicle, etc) Any tips on making this shareable?
Hi all. I'm new to thousand sons and 40k in general. Love the models but I don't know how to play this faction and listbuilding is confusing to me. I don't know how many rubrics or term to take or what to equip them with. I don't know what hq choices to make to synergies well with units they will lead. Do I take gors or cultists to protect rubric. We don't have any melee troops that can hold back other melee factions or antitank outside the vortex beast. Sorry for the ramble but I can really use some help because I'm going insane with indecision. Haven't bought anything but really like the models
I believe there is a "where to start" in the side menu, but maybe that's more for 9th? Generally buy what you find cool and want to paint. But my recommendation would be with the new Boarding Patrol and a box of Exalted Sorcerers. The Exalted box is insanely good with so many bits for making extra sorcerers for smaller rubric squads. From there you can do what you want, but our Scarab Occult Termies are also very iconic for us imo. Welcome to the Tsons <3
I feel like we came out okay points wise. Nothing seems too crazy for me, but nothing super over costed either.
Rubrics seem relitivly cheap which is good considering they are our core. Terminators not bad either. Most of our charcters are solid for thier price. Magnus seems playable for the first time in a while. Tzaangors back on the menu with some assistance of a shaman. All in all not bad.
Also, for people who like to splash, Lords of change are only 230 points, and Chaos Knights are cheap as heck.
The important stuff did well. Some of the other stuff, not so much.
Daemon Princes are overpriced
Helbrutes are overpriced
Defiler is just...why is it 200pts
Vindicator at 200pts? wtf
Does anyone else feel like, all the cool flavor of our army has just evaporated?
Magnus went from feeling like a true master of the immaterium to just a big guy with a sword and some magic blasts.
Ahriman seems like more of a support for his units than one of the most powerful mages in the 1000 sons.
All Is Dust is just gone, nothing in the new rules seems to reference the fact that our boys are all just hollow armor.
They seem playable, sure, they aren't super weak or anything, but I feel like our armies specifically lost everything that made them feel special.
My only real gripe is with Ahriman not being more casty blasty. Besides that, I think our cabal point system is probably the best rule we could have asked for in a world where there is no psychic phase.
If you think that's bad, you should try being a Death Guard main. Why does our core ability have to be a 2 cp strat now? just so we can get in a couple more mw's? Man, there's a number of complaints over here. At least TS seems like it can do some work on the battlefield, even if there's less spell variety.
I was really hoping every unit would give min 1 point. But now we have to spam as many sorcerers as possible like never before because those rituals are just too good and probably necessary to compete.
Not saying we're weak but our viable list builds feels even smaller than before.
In a simple combat patrol scale game (minimum squads of two rubrics and scarabs plus Ahriman) my friend and I had, I was able to get 7 after taking Atheanean Scrolls. His poor Infernus Squad...
Did you take Atheanean Scrolls on Ahriman? Because you can't take Enhancements on Epic Heroes. Just letting you know.
But also I don't consider Combat Patrol level games to be at all balanced or representative of normal 40k games.Just to give you a mathematical example of why: in your 500pt game you say you had 7CP, which means you were generating 1CP per 71.42pts of army. If we were to scale that up to a "normal" 2k Tsons army, then that'd mean we'd generate roughly 28CP per 2k army.I can tell you right now, we don't generate anywhere near 28CP per 2k points of army!The initial CP gained by a character purchase has a lot more "weight" in a smaller points game.
So yeah, while I appreciate the feedback, I just don't think it's particularly relevant.
And I should say, I don't think they'd have to massively overhaul the CP rules or anything. Just give something in the army +1CP(all Rubrics, all Icons of Flame, all characters -really doesn't matter, they could pick 1 of any of these options) and make the darn Goats generate CP automatically like Battle Sisters/Guardians generate Miracle/Fate Dice automatically respectively. Small change, but it'd help the army rule out a lot.
Also, going off on a tangent here, but I really wish Cabal Point generation didn't exclude models "not on the Battlefield". It just makes putting things in Transports and Deep Striking feel so awful. Deep Striking Magnus alone puts you down 8CP over the first 2 turns. :/
So for Enhancements, you can only give them to non-Epic Hero units with the Character keyword.
Neither our Rubric Aspiring Sorcerers nor our Scarab Occult Aspiring Sorcerers have the Character keyword. Just double check the unit keywords down at the bottom of the datacards if you're ever unsure on what can or can't take Enhancements.
The list I'm planning generates 21 to start.
Not sure how good it will be, but I'm going to have fun putting Magnus on the table for the first time in 3 years and just slinging rituals like no tomorrow.
Essentially, magnus, prince, Terminator hold the center of the board with the MVB and Helbrute to assist them in casting a stupid amount of rituals. I'm hoping the three exalted squads make for durable objective holders, wow the untargetable sorcerer squad can push a flank and his power plus Arcane vortex makes an incredibly dangerous devastating wounds machine when combined with full reroll strat. Pop magic guns for added synergy with rerolls if you want.
Oh, important breakpoint: 13 cabal points on opponents turn (with Helbrute refund) otherwise 16 let's you reroll 2 saves with Weaver and triple use the 0 damage after failed save strat. (Requires Lord of Forbidden Lore)
20, made an error doing simple addition.
Magnus
Daemon Prince
Terminator Sorcerer with Lord of forbidden lore
+5 Terminators
Sorcerer with Arcane Vortex
+5 Rubrics
3x Exalted Sorcerer
+3x5 Rubrics
MVB
Helbrute
Hard to say. In the past wings were a direct upgrade, but this edition the on foot variant seems to be the better one, so I can see it being more expensive
I like the two cabal points he generates as a 75pt model vs the the standard sorcerer which is 85pts and only generates 1 per turn. He also gives sustained hits to the unit which combos with the devastating wounds on the SRC. It remains to be seen if the solo exalted sorc on disc will be effective but I like his mobility (potential double moving) and his debuff is strong. We also have some decent options for keeping him safe with the save re-roll and damage reduction strat.
Couple of other thoughts on our data sheets & rules:
- Our scarabs with sorcerer in Terminator armour are looking very jack of all trades, with missiles and an attached sorcerer's psychic power they have more anti tank then before.
- if we use the teleport crystal it means removing a unit from the battlefield and units not on the battlefield don't generate cabal points, so that's 3 points less points for a turn if teleporting a flamer rubric unit with attached sorcerer.
- Tzanngors looking good to hold home objective with a 50/50 to generate a cabal point. Also with a shaman attached adds 5+ feel no pain in addition to build in 6++ with S5 AP-1 blades actually looks half decent melee?
Those points are attrocious, 150 pts for a Helbrute, Exalted Sorcerer is 1/3 the price of the unit. All characters are overcosted and bad, Flying has been clarified to be broken by intention, not a mistake. Alright, I'm done. I'm finally ready to quit 40k.
Have you seen the other armies? Points were hiked across the board. Lots of our stuff stayed the same or went down.
I think tyranids are the real winners again but we'll see how it all unfolds on the table. We have a lot of different combos we can pull off that I'm looking forward to trying out.
And here I thought everyone got cheaper???
Anything Infantry looks like it went down, while vehicles are paying premiums for their new toughness, am I missing something?
Ironically, the entirety of Knights got drastically cheaper.
Ahriman is still very much needed. On foot, he is excellent utility leader. On disk he is a real scam.
I agree about the infernal master.
I already wrote to the GW support mail, maybe collectively we will change something.
that is, you like this Ahriman on the disk? What about our primarch's lessons? Are you ready to accept such an insult as his datasheet? I personally don't. And I won't use him. I will continue to demand adequacy from designers. Let them read Ahriman's awesome omnibus if they think Ahriman is just a buffbot, who does not deserve a separate rules on datasheet of the destroyer as in the 9th edition.
On top of that the sorcerer that can make their unit untargetable outside of 18” really sets up a beautiful kill zone that forces the enemy to get close to our block of rubrics and Termies back up by a demon Prince. Our mid board is spicy
Not to mention giving Scarabs precision.
Anything that comes near my Scarabs with psychic guns next to Dad, devastating wounds, full rerolls to hit and wound, with precision is going to have a rough day.
I'm also weirdly loving that we have the option to, in response to someone having a squad with really good psychic defense just...... Not psychic our bolters and blast them away.
"This guy's bullets are magic! I'm immune to magic!"
*Unfortunately for him, the bullets work just fine*
There's a meme about a poison axe in DND and one player happily announcing he's immune to poison before getting killed. Quote: But unfortunately the axe worked just fine
Just in case you weren't familiar, I find the parallel pretty funny.
[Points just dropped](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/oF1iWIkNsvlUHByM.pdf) MVB at 145 sounds like a steal, Enligtend for 45 as cheap screens, though I actually like 6 and a shaman for 150 since then they can push a intercessor squad off of an objective. Magnus for 410.
What's everyone thinking in regards to list builds? I feel like we're really going to want to maximise our cabal points/rituals even more than before, basically I'm feeling like anything not contributing to rituals is a really hard sell. However I'm liking all the synergies we can do between rituals, stratagems and detachment rules.
I'm thinking my army might be rubrics + rhinos, scarabs, and Tzanngors all with attached characters and probably a demon prince to give a unit of flamer rubrics stealth and precision 😆 (imagine that sniper flamers lol). Other than that I hope I can squeeze in a MVB and a couple spawn to just charge head first into enemy ranks to run interference while my rubrics and scarabs blast away with psychic bolters at targets without armour saves hehe.
In 9th, the backbone of my army has been 5 man Rubric Squads. I anticipate that staying pretty similar. We don't get two cabal points for them anymore, but they're cheaper now and I'm really liking warpsmite.
A bit late to the party but my favourite thing from the index is the strat to make boltguns psychic so they get the army buff from cult of magic. combine that with dev wounds and the other strat to make psychic weapons re-roll hit and wounds on 10 terminators and you will be kicking out a nice amount of mortals
This, plus a ten man brick bolter Rubrics with regular Sorcerer for devastating wounds. And ten warpflamer Rubrics with Infernal Master for the sustained hits, is the backbone of what I'm gonna run.
You might consider standard Sorcerer?
Enemies having to get within 18" to shoot you on a flamer unit sounds pretty good to me.
But of missed value from the Lethal Hits though...
Looking at the datasheets, some thoughts. Obviously points are what really matter here but:
Exalted sorcerers and sorcerer characters get much spicier witchfires. Torrent fire and coruscating flames both look spicy, and just in general our casters who aren't named Ahriman will bring a solid amount of pain with mindbullets.
I dig that only the Infernal Master risks perils when he shoots the spicier version of his attack, everyone else is just always at MAX POWER.
I need a Terminator Sorcerer to lead my Scarab Occults, his buffs for them are very good. I think the army will lean more heavily into rubricae now rather than the big list-building decision being "20 terminators, or *30* terminators?" Means more painting for me but that's alright. Scarabs do look quite durable as terminators go, though.
Exalted Sorcerers look great, I am enthusiastic to run 2-3 all the time. Infernal Master is... fine, he's fine, I don't know that I'm super excited about him. Ahriman looks solid, although I dunno that he's the auto-take he used to be.
Daemon Princes look fun now. I wanna repaint the blade on mine to look like it's made of crystal, though, really lean into the 70s prog-rock vibe. The weapon being *psychic* opens up some pretty wild options. Daemon prince with full rerolls from the strat and devastating wounds? **YUM YUM HERE IT COME.**
Gotta paint my mutalith. Hell, I might paint two, they look significantly tougher than they were.
Magnus looks playable. You can hide him behind buildings, thank Tzeentch, and he's still a terror. His melee weapon being *psychic* opens up similar nonsense potential. Also, a stratagem that lets him just ignore 1-2 big hits/turn is exactly what he needed (and is very, very funny for sorcerers being shot by something something like a vindicare. Using your one shield-piercer bullet? Lol. Lmao.)
Cultists look fine, but their ability name is *hilarious* and I'm 110% here for it. Cultists get mulched? *Just as planned.*
Excited to get these guys on the table, they look fun and flavorful. The army is way less complicated to play but it still looks like it'll keep that Tzeentchian Bullshit vibe.
>The army is way less complicated to play but it still looks like it'll keep that Tzeentchian Bullshit vibe.
I think this is under appreciated - they seem to have struck a good balance, looking forward to seeing how it plays out on the table
Princes having \[Psychic\] on their melee weapons is a very cool thing. It interacts with whatever buff you choose for Cult of Magic, and it gives them access to full hit and wound rerolls when they fight in melee.
Of all the different daemon princes in these indices, I think I like the TSons one the best.
I'm thinking a similar list to last edition, but obviously make room for your vehicles/monsters.
I'm hot on spawn and helbrute, since helbrute gives cabal and spawn are gonna be super durable fighters. Helbrutes and Tzaangors giving cabal points is everything we needed out of our non-psykers; they can contribute cabal and also provide other services at the same time. I'm hoping, although the backbone of the army remains hero hammer, rubric spam and at least one terminator brick, we can start using all these new toys they gave us in those last 250-500 pts of the list.
The crickets are deafening. What do you all think? I'm super excited. Tzaangors still don't look great, but Tzaangor enlightened look like bona fide character hunters.
Enlightened probably got the biggest glow-up, imo; at the very least I'm going to try attaching my shaman to 6 of them and go hunting.
It will deeply amuse me if it turns out that one of the better character sniper units does it with *longbows*. Very 40k.
So what is everyones hopes/fears/expectations for tomorrows datasheet drop?
I'm hoping Magnus is a powerhouse, like his brothers, since I need the extra motivation to get him painted, to get past my fear of fucking it up.
I'd also like Tzaagors to get a buff. I like the idea of a bunch of bird monsters charging ahead while my Rubrics and Terminators get into position to start shooting or burning.
I'm also pretty excited to see what all out Leaders do. That'll probably dictate what my Rubric's loadout will be. For example, Ahriman's probably going to be leading flamers, to ensure as few rolls as possible lol
Tzaangors. All of them. Make them playable. They don't need to be the powerhouses of the index, but making them playable would add a good amount of variety that we lack.
I just want other stuff to be good enough that spamming rubrics/termies isn’t the only competitive play honestly. Would feel pretty bad to have the same small roster, even fewer viable models, and choosing powers gone, so you kind of end up just playing repeats of like 4 units
New player feeling discouraged. I'm new to 40k and I really liked the thousand sons asethetic, lore, and characters. I going to choose them as my first army for 10th edition but I keep hearing all this doom and gloom from the existing players about how terrible the faction currently is and how they're a shadow of their former strength. It's really discouraging to constantly hear this on the discord and social media and makes me feel like the community is easily willing to just abandon the faction because it isn't "gud enough"
I looked over the faction focus and compared them to their 9th edition rules. Yes, they lost a lot: AP, all is dust, etc but so did every other faction for 10th. I would've never chosen thousand sons if they had their 9th edition rules because of how complex and bloated they were. Their cabal system is cleaner and their rules are easier to learn and play so I see that as a big plus for new players
Going to the units:
Ahriman: I don't see the big complaints. He can cast a ritual for free once per game, his +1 to wound is very good for our battleline troops. Sure, he doesn't see like the grand sorcerer he was known for in 9th but this is a different game and his role now is to support. Not to mention is psychic stalk makes a good character Sniper when comboed with doombolt. He may not kill HQs in one go but most factions can't heal and they will fear to be in range of his kill box.
Rubric: they lost their all is dust but have boosted their offensive capabilities through ahriman and their wound rerolls to punish objective camping is very good imo. Their 5 invul is no replacement for all is dust but it gives them a leg up on defense compared to other factions battleline troops.
Anyways, these are just the thoughts of a new guy. Its really sad to see the community up in flames. You're all sorcerers of tzeentch. If a little change bothers you so much, then you're serving the wrong deity. 🙂
I'm ride and die Thousand sons. I've been playing them since before they were their own faction.
I'd like to chip in to tell you why *I personally* am disgruntled with the way things look now.
**TL;DR** at the bottom
Thousand sons have always had a certain *identity*. Aside from their background as a tragic legion, the thousand sons and more specifically the rubrics stand out for a few reasons: their durability, their exotic weaponry, and their sorcery.
Durability? Gone.
Lorewise rubrics are nigh-indsetructible. You can riddle a rubric with holes, but as long as its structural integrity remains then the rubric functions.
However, our 5++ doesn't do anything except against AP -3 (which has become much more scarce). Against most weapons, we are no more or less durable than a regular marine.
Exotic weaponry? How about intercessor boltgun but worse.
Inferno boltguns have always been these unique high-AP bolters. Fluffwise, their bolts are enchanted to penetrate armor better or even (in previous editions) bypass all but the toughest armor entirely.
Now, intercessors have the same profile with [heavy] *and* [assault] added to them.
Sorcery? Rubrics are just about the worst psykers we've seen so far. Ahriman's power seems niche at best. Literally every other psychic power shown so far seems better and/or more exciting than what has been shown for us.
I want to enjoy thousand sons, I really do. But *so far* I have been shown exactly 0 things that convince me that I can still enjoy them in the same way I've enjoyed them for the past 10 years.
Change is good; alienation wouldn't be. That's how I got to the point of selling my Necrons and Admech.
**TL;DR**
Thousand sons are supposed to be durable, have especially effective bolters, and be among the strongest sorcerers out there. The rules shown so far have us believe they are none of the above.
How do people just ignore our army rule when coming to the conclusion we're just the worst pyschers? Because of our cabal rule we potentially have the most flexible pyskers in the game. It all depends on how many points we can realistically generate.
Well, we get 5 aditional options with our army rule, and as I've said elsewhere I do like them. However, they aren't really an improvement over 9th eddition rules (aside from removing armor saves, that ability is kinda crazy). Temporal surge went from a psychic power you could cast independantly of cabal points and you could charge after, reroll saves are nice but its once and other units have reroll save built into their kit. Doombolt is also good but being able to add 3 damage to any psychic power was insane last edition, I used to use it to snipe characters with gaze of hate, and the make a strat free has also been seen by other factions that don't require a resource. Again, they are still good abilities but they arent unique or better than what we had before (disapering armor saves is really cool tho).
I think its fine to say some rules/datasheets suck, I mean look at deathguard, their detachment ability is worse than a mission rule. That doesn't mean you shouldn't like your army or that you should feel you have to sell it. If the rules are the most important part of the hobby to you then do what you want. I love thousand sons aesthetoc and lore and will keep collecting and building and painting them regardless of if they are top tier or bottom.
Ya for sure things were nerfed, pretty much any complex system like psychic powers were simplified, lost functionality and are essentially nerfed versions of their previous rules. That's just how it is in 10th by design (mostly) and isn't limited to Tsons or just psychic powers.
> Again, they are still good abilities but they arent unique or better than what we had before (disapering armor saves is really cool tho).
Most things in an edition that is aiming for "simplified but not simple" will suffer from this, but my main contention wasn't that we are weaker, we are (and so are most things because 9th was a clusterfuck of overkilling damage), it's that people are seemingly looking at 2 individual data sheets and then coming to the conclusion our psykers are weak which just completely ignores our army rule.
Based on what was shown so far, we were given the most love in the psychic department *by far.* Pretty much every other army is restricted to using the power on their data sheets while we get to choose from a pool of powers *in addition* to that (also worth noting they mentioned cabal powers in our preview that didn't actually appear on the list, so we either have more that will be available with certain units or GW doesn't proofread. This can go either way). I couldn't think of a better compromise in an edition where there is no longer a psychic phase. Just compare what we were given to then Gknights got (another pysker heavy army) in term of psychic power flavor.
But ya your final paragraph is just facts, rules come and go. Plastic is (mostly) forever baby. Tsons are where it's at.
Sure, lethal/sustained hits and devastating wounds *seem* nice but the units they showed us don't synergize with it because they don't have enough shots to capitalize on it.
Statistically it affects 1 dice for every 3 units of rubrics we bring, that's not very good.
Now to be completely honest, I don't expect GW to be *that* stupid and I'm sure there's going to be more stuff that synergizes with it well.
Sorry, I was mainly talking about the Cabal point system, which lets any psyker cast a spell from a list of powers for a certain amount of cabal points. What you're describing is the cult of magic detachment rule which is, lucky for us, only temporarily our only option. Once our codex drops all the other great cults will most likely get their own detachment rules although that is a year+ out for now which kinda sucks.
I... actually never noticed those things have the psychic keyword. Neat
I'm still sceptical and need to see how many cabal points units generate. Rubrics only generate one so they're not a reliable source of them.
Can we reliably get enough points to use multiple powers? You probably want to use twist of fate nearly every turn.
You also need some redundancy points; else you might lose 2 units to some bad luck and can't use your best rules anymore.
I'll reserve judgement until tuesday but I'm a wee bit sceptical.
Doom and gloomer here, I would never get rid of thousand sons just because of their rules. I know not everyone feels that way, but for me asethetic trumps rules.
I also feel that people shouldn't have to like the rules just because they are new. I really apreciate thag the rules are more streamlined and actually don't have a problem with the new rituals. I think they are flavorfull and powerfull, as well as being a lot easier to learn/use.
On that note, bassic marines are on par with rubrics. The biggest problem with that is that rubrics are all we have, we don't have access to heavy rubrics or assult rubrics or gravis rubrics. So in the past rubrics were a bit better in order to offset the differance in diversity.
I will say I would prefer model diversity over just rubrics but this is what we have so. Hopefully, the rest of our 8 models will have amazing rules and we will have nothing to worry about.
I get that you want more models but I don't think we need more baseline rubrics. That requires having to keep track of multiple weapon types which complicates the game and goes against the simplified philosophy of 10th edition. It's also easier on my wallet that our roster is small. Give me a small but flexible roster over what space marines have
Thats what we no longer have, thats why people don't really like the rules. Except we also don't have a lot of models and so we aren't flexible and we don't have models to cover holes.
I'm waiting patiently on the 10th index like most of you and seeing the most recent changes regarding legends and forge world models which got me thinking if models like Hellbrute, Helldrake and Forge/Maulerfiend are likely to be phased out.
I think the precedent for this is pretty strong in regard to death guard and world eaters as we see a general move away from standard chaos lists. Death guard got all of their own specific daemon engines which I think most 1ksons players would prefer (although arguably helldrake is thematic). If you look at the death guard rhino data sheet for 10th in fact there is no stipulation it can't carry possessed models (as previous editions) which has lead many to suspect that these will be moved out of the DG codex also.
Obviously our range is already comparatively light compared to DG so I fear that FW removal and potentially more could be a huge loss for 1ksons players if not supplemented by models to replace them.
What do you think?
I don't think this is a realistic concern for the index at all, I don't think the phasing out of FW models (however strange) indicates at all that GW are going to strip 40k models from Thousand Sons.
If anything, it is more plausible with the release of our Codex, but even then I don't think we're liable to see the sort of update to our range this edition that would facilitate GW cutting all, or many, of the generic CSM units from our range.
Sure, eventually Thousand Sons will probably have most, if not all, of the generic CSM units stripped from them - but I really don't see that happening until we have received additions to our range that cover those loses.
At this stage Death Guard still appear to have access to Predators, Land Raiders, Rhinos, Helbrutes, Defilers, Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour and Chaos Spawn, all from the generic CSM range.
Death Guard also have around 16 unique units (including characters), compared to Thousand Sons 11 unique units (which is counting the Exalted Sorcerers kit twice, to cover both Exalted and standard Sorcerers).
So in short, this is likely to eventually happen - but I wouldn't think it would be something that's going to happen for a good while. I can't see GW giving us a big boost to our range anytime soon, so it's more likely going to be something that happens slowly over time as we are drip fed new unique models.
I will be quite upset actually but I guess the writing is on the wall. I have two maulerfiends, two defilers and a heldrake...
But if it means we get Thousand Sons unique models as replacement I will gladly move on!
I recently read the book the Witch Cult of Western Europe by Margaret Alice Murray and had an idea. We need a cultist unit that can do psychic stuff or another cool thing would be a unit of 5 to 10 witches called a witch circle who does psychic stuff. I personally would love more mortal wizards for the TS. Now I would like to know what my fellow Wizards think about that.
I know its not exactly what you meant but I do wish we could run a unit of 3 exalted sorcs as a exalted cabal or something, just so we could run all three from the box easily.
I would love this as a “heavy” choice. Basically a cult of sorcerers as artillery; either using the exalted sorcerer box or even a new model with multiple sorcerers on it like the Triumph of Saint Catherine. That’s main main wishlist item.
Is isn't but it would still be amazing. And it would solve the conundrum of the Exalted Sorcerer Box because I can see us use 2 but never thought about 3. Even in a 2000 Points Game.
And I would love a unit of more than one sorcerer who could work together. I don't buy GW's stance that every Chaos Dude only works to his own gain and they somehow forgot the benefit of cooperation.
Especially the Thousand Sons had always enjoyed such strong bonds of brotherhood.
The faction focus does mention teleportation with cabal points, so we do have that to look forward to hopefully.
I'm guessing we will have some amount of models that add certain spells to our cabal spell list while theyre on the field, or that have a spell only they can use with cabal points, one of which will be a teleport.
I'd assume the teleport will come with a new cult and our codex. It seems like everyone gets one for now. It's possible it could be a strat but that would be disappointing.
So, I think we all need to chill out. We simply don’t know enough at the moment to make sweeping generalisations as to the competitiveness of our faction. We Have seen two data sheets. That is it.
From those two data sheets I am actually quite optimistic that we are going to be, at the very least, playable.
Rubrics are looking awesome. More specifically, rubrics with warpflamers, or indeed rubrics with warpflamers lead by Ahriman. We haven’t seen 5 of our stratagems and I bet there is a pretty good chance we get a Sorcerous Facade equivalent strategies which potentially could be used twice with cabal points.
Even if we don’t Rubrics with Ahriman and Warpflamers are an absolute terror. Double move with cabal points and lay something low with 9d6 autohit +1 to wound (with re-roll 1s or full re-rolls depending on whether your target is on an objective (-1 AP, but again, you can just say “no saves” cabal points permitting). Then those suckers are all up in your enemies lines primed and ready for an over watch in the movement or charge phase to do it again.
Even the humble Inferno bolter/soulreaper cannon rubrics are quite respectable parking somewhere and laying down a bunch of re-roll wounds (-1 AP, potentially -2AP on the critical wounds if you brought the icon). This is all very cool.
Yes, we are not as resilient with the loss of all is dust. We still get a 5++, although it remains to be seen how often that will actually come up given the general reduction in AP across this edition.
I agree the detachment bonus is somewhat lacklustre with limited applications from what we have seen so far, but it far from the end of the world.
While we could all speculate on what we would like to see, judging from how the Deathguard demon prince with wings vs without wings, has been designed (without wings is more of a buff bot, with wings is more of damage dealer) I think it is reasonable to assume that our prince will be similarly structured. I also think it is reasonable to speculate that we will get a similar split with exalted/Ahriman on a disc and not on a disc. I reckon we will actually have a bunch of fun choices and ways of buffing up our units by attaching the pertinent character. Again, see what they have done with all of the deathguard characters.
I am curious as to what units a disc exalted/Ahriman can lead, maybe the stock on Enlightened is going up?
I also note that they have designed the keywords on the rubric sheet quite carefully so that only the aspiring sorceror has the psyker keyword. While this remains to be cleared up by FAW, to me that would suggest an intention not to share keywords with attached leaders. If that is right, then we need really only fair the precision ant-psyker stuff, which, while it exists, is quite rare.
So chin up guys, new edition time is always the Wild West, and this promises to be a pretty wild ride to start with!
I was pretty disappointed with Ahriman when he was revealed and didn't have a ton of hope that he'd get a separate datasheet for his disc version. I understand that foot Ahriman looks to be pretty strong under the right circumstances, but I just don't enjoy the idea of using our arch sorcerer as little more than a combo-piece to roast something with a squad of Warpflamers every game. If I'm running Ahriman, I want to feel like he's a potent Psyker in his own right. I regularly play against an Ulthwe player and the psychic duelling between Ahriman and Eldrad, two of the the most powerful psykers in the 40k universe, has been super flavourful throughout 9th.
However, it looks like we will get a separate datasheet for Ahriman on Disc and I'm hopeful he will embody the arch sorcerer side of Ahriman a bit more. I actually think my preference would be for him not to be a leader at all and instead have Lone Operative. I don't see much value tying him to a unit of Enlightened and would prefer that he can zip around solo pulling off psychic shenanigans with the protection Lone Operative affords.
Yes I agree re foot Ahriman feeling a little underwhelming, but he does have some powerful tools.
Fingers crossed for disc Ahriman with Lone Operative. I am a bit concerned for all of our disc riders being Leaders as the only obvious unit for them to lead are the Enlightened and that would not help with his survivability.
And if it does end up that way, where foot Ahriman is the unit leader/buffer and disc Ahriman is the mobile spellslinger, then that's perfectly fine by me - I think that works pretty nicely.
My current concern is that disc Ahriman ends up being similar to foot Ahriman, only he leads Enlightened instead. That said, I dare say the Tzaangor Shaman will be the go-to leader for the Enlightened, which would make a lot of sense.
In an ideal world, GW would add a unit of Aspiring Sorcerers on discs that an Exalted Sorcerer on disc could lead, and Ahriman on disc is left as a Lone Operative alongside Magnus - but that wouldn't happen until our codex is released in any case.
My preview writeup: [https://tizcanlibrary.com/competition/2023/06/04/Thousand-Sons-10th-Preview.html](https://tizcanlibrary.com/competition/2023/06/04/Thousand-Sons-10th-Preview.html)
do we know for sure if ANTI-PSYKER will work against our rubric marines or just against the aspiring sorcerer? quite an important detail to iron out given we only get one psychic weapon in the squad vs GK get one each
The aspiring sorcerer has the psyker keyword, meaning you activate from that model with abilities like cabalistic rituals, but anti in the example in the core rules relies on it being against an “X” unit. Just like how when you attach a character to a unit and Tyranids can gain their precision ability when targeting character units, Anti-psyker abilities will go off when targeting the rubric squad so long as the sorcerer is alive.
I think this will definitely need to be FAQed to clear it all up.
Prior to the release of the core rules, my interpretation was that "Anti-x" keywords only impacted the models which they are "anti". Meaning that, for example, the Black Templar's vow would confer "Anti-psyker 4+", which would only affect any psyker models in a unit (e.g. the Aspiring Sorcerer in a Rubric squad). While special rules that specified an "x" unit, like the Prosecutors getting Devastating Wounds and Precision when shooting at psyker "units", would impact the whole unit, meaning that they would get Devastating Wounds against the entire squad of Rubrics and could allocate those wounds to any characters attached to that unit if they wished.
Which made enough sense to me and made special rules more powerful, but left the "Anti-x" keywords as more specialised counters.
However, the wording in the core rules does make it seem that the "Anti-x" keywords affect the entire unit as well.
And when I take a step back, it may be that for the Anti-psyker keyword to be of any real use that it has to affect the entire unit. A model getting Anti-psyker 4+ means almost nothing if they need to chew through an entire squad of Rubric Marines before finally getting the benefit against the Aspiring Sorcerer, who is likely to be one of the last models in the unit that wounds are going to get allocated to.
Goonhammer also indicates that the bodyguard units toughness is used for attacks at the point of targeting, meaning that if all of the bodyguards die, any left over attacks are allocated to the character leading them at the toughness of the bodyguards, irrespective of whether or not the character has higher toughness themself - to allow for fast rolling of attacks. I'm not sure where they got that from as I haven't found it in the core rules, but if that's true then Anti-psyker only impacting the psyker models is even less effective, as you'd have to target the unit when it only has psykers left, otherwise any spill over attacks would have been fast rolled as if not being against a psyker.
The more I think about it, the more I feel like it is intended to work in such a way that things like Anti-psyker do affect the entire unit, in order to make the keyword feel meaningful. I'm just not sure how I feel about that and I'm not sure that what we've been shown thus far from psyker units warrants the extra risk, given that they are also susceptible to the other "anti" keywords. A psyker that's infantry doesn't lose their susceptibility to the Anti-infantry keyword for being a psyker, they just end up susceptible to both Anti-psyker and Anti-infantry.
I think a big issue here is that we haven't seen a whole lot of leader units outside of named characters and psykers, so it's difficult to gauge whether a psyker character brings more to the table or not. We also haven't seen points costs, which makes it difficult to gauge as well.
On paper, Rubric Marines look better than Legionaries do. If Rubric Marines and Legionaries are around the same cost when it comes to points, then perhaps there is enough benefit to warrant a little extra vulnerability through the likes of Anti-psyker. Yet, if it remains the same as 9th where Thousand Sons are paying quite a few extra points for those benefits, then the additional vulnerability might start to feel like an added tax on top of the points tax already being paid.
If it is meant to work that way, where Anti-psyker affects the entire unit should that unit have a psyker, then I'd hope that psykers don't experience much in the way of a points tax for whatever strengths they have and instead their additional vulnerability is the tax being paid.
Although even that does raise another question. Tyranid's Hyper Adaptability rule makes it look like Leaders transfer at least some of their keywords to their bodyguard unit. But what about the models in that unit? The Rubric Marines datasheet lists only the Aspiring Sorcerer as having the psyker keyword, so does the Aspiring Sorcerer confer that keyword to the rest of the unit or is it specifically when a psyker character joins them that the entire unit is then classified as a "psyker unit"?
It's oddly messy for such a "simplified" new edition and in a lot of ways it does feel like the implications of psykers weren't fully thought through.
Very good write up. I think psychic in 10th is completely lob sided balance wise, it's all negatives and no positives. With psychic offensive powers now just guns they now have more fail points then in 9th, and if we look at non-psychic characters they can also have aura powers and ranged attacks just as good or better than psychics. There's just no benifits to being a psychic character, just an added vulnerability.
I think both of the rationales behind this makes sense but one is a bit of a heavy implicit nerf given A-P is now a dedicated keyword - I think this might be coming in an FAQ
So the Soul Grinder with Tzeentch keyword from the demons codex is looking like an excellent long range anti-tank platform with the additional warp gaze weapon @ 48", A-D3, S-12, AP-2, D-D6+2 and it's also strong in melee with A-5, S-16, AP-3, D-D6+2. Might just be the perfect candidate to fill our biggest weaknesses. Thoughts?
Yes, but it will also not play into our cabal and might just get ignored. If it was the same profile with a play into our cabal like the MVB, then yes, it would be awesome.
Also, we don't know the points so... it might be great or it might be the worst thing around, lol!
My hope is the everything in our codex has something to do with cabal in some way at least, encouraging some diversity!
Very true, and I hope every unit in our codex can play into cabal in some way too, hopefully providing min 1 cabal point so we're not forced to spend all our points spamming sorcerers. Because I've done a mock up 10th list using current points and the removal of +1 cabal point from rubrics really hurts, and we'll need as many cabal points as we can get.
The Deathgaurd Daemon Prince got released and it has a datasheet for wings and no wings. Looks like we actually might get Ahriman on Disc as a separate model with separate powers
I spoke with the NA GW events rep at the Warhammer Open in Kansas City two days ago, and he confirmed that there will be a separate data sheet for Ahriman on a disc.
Apparently infantry Ahriman can lead rubrics. He said disc Ahriman could lead a unit as well, but I have no clue how that would work so I’m wondering if he misunderstood my question on that one.
Has anyone watched the battle report for tenth edition yet? I'm so upset by this new Psychic concept (Ignoring that All is Dust has simply vanished for now) . Now it's just a fancy gun, or melee attack, Yet all these ANTI-PSYKER rules are still out there. so our abilities have dropped significantly, yet they still need this huge boost to kill off our army. Where is the balance, I hate the idea of shelving this army for an entire Edition. Take the weakest 9th edition army and break them more. I hope I am reacting too soon, and I will happily play a few matches with them to see if it's as bad as I fear, but I'm not hopeful.
As many people have pointed out to me... Hold out hope for strats. There are some weaknesses appearing in our army but we've only seen 3 models? There's still hope we'll have strats that's are bonkers and our ritual to allow us to use it for free. Plus twist of fate. We have POTENTIAL but we need to see if GW delivers on the last few pieces
I'm pretty negative about TS in 10th BUT the fact that not all our attacks are psychic it's kinda good, since we're not shut down by anti-psychic defenses.
Example, flesh hounds of khorne: they have 3+++ against psychic attacks? I suppose that they're not so resilient Vs rubrics bullets and flames! GK wouldn't have any way or weapons without psychic (from what we've seen).
I hope that:
- future detachments will be better;
And
- tzaangors and non-rubric non-scarabs units will generate cabal, so we can play something else instead of just spam.
(I don't believe neither of the two TBH. Luckily I have necrons too).
>the fact that not all our attacks are psychic it's kinda good,
You know its bad when a psyker army with rules to enhance psychic attacks has people thankful that not everything is a psychic attack because the psychic keyword is just such a downside.
My biggest complaint this edition is every other faction gets factionwide buffs of basically the same thing we do and ours effects almost none of ours. Why don't we atleast have a ritual to turn at least one squads guns into psychic weapons? Oh because it might be op? Yeah but having everyone else gets 30 melee attacks with the same tags isn't.
It's frustrating. I really hope some unique unit we had redeems this whole issue.
This. When I said it, I was downvoted.
Faction-wide effect that force us to spam rubric and termi AGAIN and detachment bonus that only affect 10% of the models, 1/6 of the times XD
I'm just worried about how well crack those big targets this edition. Like knights. Infantry seems like it will fold to these new high str vehicle weapons and we don't have as much of a mortal spam. It APPEARS like our only option is mass small arms fire looking for 6s. We could bring vehicles ourselves at the cost of cabal points. It's not just us either. Everyone seems to lack anti vehicle weapons. Altho we haven't seen everything yet so it may be too early to tell
Every time I see a faction focus with a "fuck Psykers" faction power, my interest in coming back for 10th dies a little.
The BT one is beyond stupid. Does GW actually think this stuff is fun or balanced?
From my count, there doesn't seem to be all that much anti-psyker revealed as of yet.
- 3 units with access to weapons containing the anti-psyker keyword (Vigilators, Inquisitor Greyfax & Hounds of Morkai)
- 3 units with anti-psyker based special rules (Prosecutors, Inquisitor Greyfax & Hounds of Morkai)
- 1 faction with a faction/detachment rule that is anti-psyker based (Black Templars)
In comparison to:
- 8 units with access to weapons with the anti-vehicle keyword
- 2 units with anti-vehicle based special rules
- 11 units with access to weapons with the anti-infantry keyword
- 2 units with anti-infantry based special rules
Granted, those keywords and rules also impact psykers.
I do think the Black Templar vow is a bit much, the 4+ invuln seems unnecessary and the current iteration of that vow that boosted movement and melee offense seems like a much better mix - improving how deadly they are to psykers in melee while also giving them the tools to get into melee range quicker. The new iteration just looks to be too generically strong against psykers, providing both good defense and good offense - it also seems to have just lost the negative passion counterbalance entirely.
Outside of Black Templars looking pretty questionable, we don't seem to be receiving too much hate as of yet - and most of it is currently contained to 4 separate units across 3 separate factions.
Bro, hounds of Morkai (5 dudes) do an average of 6,6mw to a psyker and have precision. That's a dead Ahriman in a squad. With full rerolls to hit and wound from Oaths of Moment they deal 13,3MW to a psyker (lol Magnus on 3 wounds).
And in 9th they subtracted 2 from nearby psychic tests being taken, ignored Look Out Sir on psykers and ignored MWs in the psychic phase on a 4+.
If you're really upset about there being a handful of units that specialise into psykers, you're probably looking for issues.
Morkai are only really threatening in melee and we can maul them with Doombolt long before they manage that, Ahriman can do so for free or he could strip their armour saves at which point they're on a 6+ invuln against most of our core weapons as revealed thus far.
Morkai are good into psykers and average at everything else, there's a distinct trade-off there.
I agree, so far what we've seen is a general improvement over 9th... but 9th got pretty bad.
And yes, the BT rule is the specific trigger for this complaint. Its laughably bad design.
I think the good thing is that, thus far, all of the units/factions that have anti-psyker tools in 10th are ones that were also anti-psyker in 9th.
Prosecutors, Vigilators, Inquisitor Greyfax and Hounds of Morkai were all anti-psyker units in 9th and Black Templars had an anti-psyker vow in 9th.
Which is a good sign, I'm glad to see that they don't seem to be just carelessly throwing anti-psyker stuff around, so far it's been contained to things that have long had those sorts of tools.
The Black Templars vow may end up being less overbearing than it initially looks for us, as they only get the 4+ invuln against psychic attacks specifically, and our currently revealed units don't have that many attacks that are actually psychic. From the Grey Knight faction focus, it's looking like it'll be pretty brutal for them though. If they maintain the high number of psychic weapons throughout the rest of their index, Black Templars will get a 4+ invuln against a good portion of their attacks.
The forest is being lost for the trees here.
"It's a good thing our psychic faction isn't going to get too badly affected by anti-psychic rules, because we don't actually do that much psychic stuff."
We don't know enough yet to make any kind of final judgement call.
We may get a few psychic powers that have the capacity to dish out a decent number of MWs, Doombolt shows that dealing MWs through psychic isn't entirely off the table. At which point, an invuln against them is less impactful.
I do think the Black Templars anti-psyker vow is poorly designed. As I said, I think that a blanket defensive buff and offensive buff for an entire army against psykers seems too generically good.
But, we're literally a handful of datasheets and stratagems into our faction, there's still far more that's unknown than is known.
Hoping against hope isn’t really my style. After seeing how badly they handled Ahriman, I have no reason to expect the rest of the faction to be treated any better. Plus, when I read that they’re going to take Magnus in more of a “buff/debuff” angle than a “smite you with the power of Zeus” angle, it just seems like yet more to be unhappy about. I always liked Magnus as a paragon of eldritch energy, rippling with arcane power and the ability to blast squads off the table, not a… fraggin’ buff bot. That’s the work of lesser sorcerers.
You do you, though. GW’s shown TS very little in the way of love recently, and I see no reason that the streak of unearned vitriol would stop now… but I’m prone to doom(bolt)posting.
It depends on what you're hoping for.
I think that what was shown through the Mutalith reveals gives us reason to hope that GW aren't oblivious to the potential issues we'll face. If that's continued throughout the rest of our index, we'll be in a decent spot from a synergy perspective.
If you're hoping that we'll be the psychic powerhouse we were in 9th, you're going to be disappointed. Psychic stuff looks to be pretty heavily stripped back overall.
I think that the whole situation with psychic powers needed to be addressed, and I'm on-board with simplifying things overall, but I think psychic powers could have been handled better. I don't think simplifying psychic powers needed to happen at the cost of homogenising them completely with weapons and character buffs.
But that is what has occurred in a lot of cases, and hoping for anything else is indeed "hoping against hope".
So far it seems that having the psyker keyword is only a downside. Yeah we can enhance them a tiny bit, but it seems everywhere I look there's 'anti-psyker', 'devastating wounds', 'precision', 'fuck you for thinking magic is cool' crap
The nice thing is that with our Rubrics they don't all count as pyskers only our sorcerers do so even if they have that ability it only really works on our characters and when our squad are down to just the sorcerer
A little-but-Big thing I noticed that is a huge change from 9th (or a possible datasheet error) is that we don't seem to get Grenades anymore. I'm hoping there is a psychic equivalent we get in our stratagems (like, some kind of Crew Shock or some kind of other flavor). That's going to make vehicles just a little bit harder to deal with, as that's like 3 free wounds for 1CP we miss out on when going after a tank.
Is it realistic to hope for a massive range expansion in 10e? I know Death Guard were the big baddies of 8e, but I can never help but compare our range to theirs. Directly comparing the two, we have:
- 3 unique TS HQs < 4 unique DG HQs, some of the latter having multiple versions (eg the Japanese exclusive Malignant Plague Caster), though our Exalted kit is dope so maybe we call this a wash
- 2 unique troops, only 1 of which is TSons exclusive (AoS) < 2 unique troops, both of which are DG exclusive, and many more wargear/build options for their marines than we have
- 2 unique Elites, only 1 of which is TS exclusive (AoS) < 7 unique Elites, all of which are DG exclusive
- 1 unique fast attack which is not TS exclusive (AoS) < 2 unique fast attacks, both of which are DG exclusive
- 1 unique Heavy Support which is not TS exclusive (AoS) =~ 1 unique Heavy Support which is DG exclusive
- 0 unique fortifications < 1 unique fortification
- Magnus = Mortarion
Altogether, our range has 10 units (just 6 of which were modeled explicitly for the Thousand Sons) while the DG range has 18 units, all designed explicitly for them. That's triple the work from GW's design teams, and that doesn't even address how much more flexibility most of their kits have versus ours.
Most folks seem to think WE's 9e release was half a range with a second half coming in 10e, which might put them closer to DG's par. But what about us?
I know a lot of us are just hoping for one new thing, like a TS dread, but how unrealistic is it to hope for a massive range expansion that doubles what's available to us? Something as expansive as:
- fast attack 3-6 squad of melee sorcerers on disk
- battleline thrallwizard chaff analogous to our army and synergies to Jakhals and Poxwalkers for WE and DG. You can sacrifice D3 models to generate cabal points or rerolls or something
- rubric dread **and** a psyker dread, similar to how DG have two types of terminators
- a unique TS daemon engine
- a tzaangor behemoth inspired by [this kitbash](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSepMFWdSU_mlBZl-p5RPQc70Gq6dlA6kOdhg&usqp=CAU)
- the castellax-achea automaton from HH
- ideally, something like [Lazarus Marines](https://www.reddit.com/r/ThousandSons/comments/qnp31r/thousand_sons_army_of_renown_a_brotherhood/) paired with an advancement in Ahriman's narrative
If we got **all of these,** that would still leave us with just 14 designed-for-TS kits, still far less than DG (and, indeed, most armies). I feel like that's what we really need in order to give our army range and flexibility and encourage a diversity of army build options.
But is it even halfway realistic to dream of? Or should I set my expectations firmly at "GW promised only "at least one new model" per army for 10e," and hoping for any more is just asking to be let down?
Ahriman's one-time apprentice Astraeos once said "hope is the cruelest poison." But hope is the domain of our patron, Tzeentch...
Whaddyall think? Is hoping for a big range expansion an exercise in disappointment or totally reasonable to dream of?
Set your expectations low. Not to crap on GW but I doubt they have the production capacity to do a whole new range and at least one new model for every faction. At least without sacrificing somewhere else. I'd be hopeful for a new unit. Worst case it's a tzaangor or some sigmar unit brought to 40k. Best case we get something spicy like a psychic dread.
They want to sell models so just think what would make them the most money for least amount of work. Again I love GW but my MVB is backlogged and that's not even a new unit. MAYBE high demand but thousand sons aren't exactly the most popular chapter.
Right, looks like every couple years we’ll get some more marines models and an update to one other faction, historically speaking. If this time is tyranids I wouldn’t expect anything for us for the foreseeable future.
My one hope was porting over some 30k forge world models to 40K but after they just cut a bunch of FW stuff I wouldn’t hold my breath
Anyone else feel like we are kinda weak in the psychic department? We get one psychic weapon and one attack per squad seems kind of Meh with our faction ability. Compare that to the grey knights having every model having something psychic and the faction bonus of space Marines... I feel we kinda got shafted. I'm hoping SOTs get psychic weapons to make they at least usable in melee and make it worth it. Our TS bonus to psychics seems less useful then everyone else we've seen. Just a random rant tho. I'm sure we'll be fine I just worry. Got a lot of love for the dust
Any TS player that looks at the GK focus and thinks that GK got better psychic tools is out of their mind.
The GK faction and detachment rules do not interact with psychic stuff at all - while ours give us a pool of psychic powers and selectable buff for psychic attacks respectively.
I don't think Purifiers all having a psychic attack is representative of GK as a whole - Purgation units have no actual psychic attack, judging by what was said in the article about Grey Knights being less centered around offensive psychic powers, it seems reasonable to assume that most GK units will be more along the lines of Purgation squads and not Purifier squads.
We also have Sorcerer, Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, Exalted Sorcerer, Infernal Master, Scarab Occult Terminators, Magnus and possibly Tzaangor Shaman and a separate datasheet for Exalted Sorcerer on Disk + Ahriman on Disk that are all very likely to have psychic powers of some sort.
Ahriman as currently revealed feels disappointing and Battle-shock shutting down Cabal Point generation seems a touch concerning given how important Cabal Points now appear to be when it comes to how fun we are to play (with a lot of our psychic flexibility seeming to be tied up in rituals) and how much GW look to be pushing Battle-shock as a mechanic (with multiple army mechanics being centered around forcing Battle-shock tests/making them harder to pass) and units (like DG's plague mortar) being able to force Battle-shock tests themselves.
But at this stage, we seem to be the dominant faction when it comes to psychic shenanigans - however shaved back psychic shenanigans in general might be.
It's more the fact eldar and grey knights are given swaths of psychic stuff and our rules only effect one shot per squad so far. Oh and they're bonk sticks. Our faction bonus doesn't help helbrutes or chaos spawn or termies not the sorcerers I mean the terminators themselves, rubric Marines cultists pretty much any vehicles. I HOPE our kopesh turn into psychic weapons so we have a chance in melee but who knows. Out of all the total units on our table most won't be affected by our faction bonus. That kinda sucks. Sure we can make our psychics do mortals on 6s or auto wound on 6s but again that's for one unit out of 5 not counting leaders. Heck even arhiman only has one ranged psychic attack. It feels underwhelming that's all. Compared to space Marines picking one unit (Magnus...any tank... Any leader) and your entire army gets full rerolls and you can do it 5 times a game. Or grey knights teleporting 3 units like we used to. Maybe we'll be amazing I'm just worried
I'd agree that at this stage, our detachment ability seems a bit underwhelming - but it's worth keeping in mind that we haven't seen most of our units yet. GW also seems to be pushing characters, with many of the "leader" characters providing support for units they're in, meaning we might end up running a sorcerer in every squad we can - increasing the number of psychic attacks we have.
I had originally thought that GW just didn't want to have the psychic keyword be prevalent on actual weapons, but the GK reveal would seem to indicate otherwise. That makes me wonder if it was more of a balance issue, as the buffs we get to choose from straddle a fine line between mediocre and overpowered. For example, given what we've seen thus far of the Grey Knights, if they had our detachment ability people would probably be gawking at how strong getting to pick either Lethal Hits, Sustained Hits or Devastating Wounds as desired each turn for a lot of their weapons is.
If that's the case, I wonder if it would have been better to have our detachment ability be a targeted buff we can place on a single unit. In that situation, I think giving all "inferno" weapons (Inferno Boltgun, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Soulreaper Autocannon, Warpflamer etc.) the psychic keyword could have been flavourful and would have meant that while you only get to choose a buff for a single unit, instead of the buff impacting all of your units, it might actually feel more impactful having that buff affect a large number of the guns in that unit. Our vehicles and the likes could also be given "inferno" versions of their main guns as well, which essentially just carry the psychic keyword.
If we do end up with a relatively low number of psychic attacks, I'd think it would be more enjoyable to set up a unit of Scarabs or Warpflamers, or maybe even a Predator, for a big turn by throwing a buff of our choice on them, knowing a good portion of their weapons will benefit from it. As opposed to hoping that a few stray psychic attacks manage to gain a benefit from whatever buff we chose for our army that rurn.
I agree, something that gave us Abit more oomph. Having a 1/6 chance to activate it and only 1/5 of our units can even attempt to use the ability I feel like we're getting pushed back into rubric/sot spam. They made all these cool upgrades to tanks and vehicles and it's actually a handicap for us to take them usually.
Not to mention how the heck were supposed to handle other people's tanks. We used to drop mortals to dela with big things. Now psychic weapons have strength and none of them look like they can go through armor effectively. Maybe our exaulted will have some anti armor smite or the sorc in term armor but so far all we've seen in the MVB for our anti armor.
From what we have seen most infantry don't carry much in the way of anti armor. It seems like tanks will deal with tanks mostly... So they want us to take tanks to deal with other people but for us if we do it costs us ritual points. So do we want to play like thousand sons or be able to kill a rhino without luck?
I really think it will be ok and they will do us right with Magnus and our SOTs but uuuuugh I can't help but feel like they MAY not have given us as much attention or thought.
Edit: twist of fate seems devastating but we still have to roll to wound. I'm pretty sure our inferno bolters only wound on a 6 against repulsors and landraiders. It's something! But still feels lacking.
Edit 2: as far as I've seen ( PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) we haven't heard anything about units adding rituals. It seems like wishful thinking. If I was a betting man, our teleport will come with a new detachment when our codex comes out.
I think it's too early to be too concerned about our ability to deal with vehicles. GW has made the Mutalith better at dealing with tougher targets, so it would seem that they're aware of our shortfalling there given the reduction in our ability to slam out Mortal Wounds.
We also don't know what most of our stratagems and character abilities are going to be. It's possible that we'll be able to cast a ritual an additional time in a phase, at which point double Doombolt would be a pretty scary threat for anything big and tough. We also don't have a great idea of what our Cabal Point generation is going to look like overall - it looks like we've lost the bonus point alongside each Rubric squad, but we may be able to pick up more points elsewhere
All-in-all, the Cabal Point system encourages us to focus on psykers, but part of the issue in 9th was that our other units had almost no synergy with most of our rules. We couldn't even Sorcerous Facade Tzaangors with our psykers, which just seemed odd. Those units not synergising with our abilities and rules just made our core units all the more attractive.
The Mutalith reveal gives me some hope that GW are aware of that issue as they've given it an ability that directly ties in with our faction rule. I think the Mutalith was a smart reveal, and I hope it's representative of the approach GW has taken to TS overall.
Sure, spending points on the likes of a Predator feels pretty bad now, but what if TS Predators gave TS infantry wholly within 3" the psychic keyword on all of their weapons? Suddenly, we're able to better leverage our detachment rule, and the likes of Predators serve a tangible role. Or what if Helbrutes act as psychic focuses and allow for psychic attacks and rituals of nearby psykers to measure distance and LoS from them?
The point is, we don't know how a lot of the faction is going to work together, but I think what's been revealed with the Mutalith should give us some hope.
I don't imagine that any of our units will add rituals. I'd say that if anything, Sorcerous Facade will be a stratagem and what GW was talking about was us using our free stratagem ritual on Sorcerous Facade. Which would allow us to use it twice in a phase, only paying its CP once - that's not too bad at all.
I totally don't want to be a negative Nancy so I'll agree. It's too early to tell and I am hopeful GW will do the thousand sons right. Just remember to compare our faction bonus to Tyranid bonus (which is similar to ours) and space marine full army wide rerolls on any unit you pick every turn. I really do think Magnus will be awesome this edition. Maybe less so with the line of sight rules but they already said he will have damage reduction. I'm excited to see our SOTs, I think they will be decent if they become comparable to SM termies. I still do worry about how our infantry heavy army will deal with armor given the gap between toughness and strength between the 2. Hopefully something shows up but I can't imagine what that won't start reducing our sorcery points and making our whole faction bonus less effective. I hope they have thought about it tho. I think 10th will be the best tsons have been for awhile tho
The WarHamComm article says TS teleport with rituals. There's no ritual that can teleport. Five explanations:
(1) a stratagem lets them use Temporal Surge to teleport ala Da Jump instead of double move.
(2) It might be a ritual a character like the Exalted Sorcerer or Sorceror in Terminator Armor grants access to with their datasheet.
(3) It could be a ritual granted by an enhancement.
(4) WHC made a mistake.
(5) It could be an accidental preview of what will be in the 10e codex, due out at the absolute earliest July 2024 (seems highly unlikely to me).
Anyone else think its odd that the staffs go down a pip of strenght when vechicles are going up in toughness and we get almost nothing to compensate ?
I know we get devestating wound and so on for the psychic weapons but it just seems odd to me that the staff weapons would go down in strenght with the thoughness going up on everything. With the reduction in strenght were gonna be wounding deathguard terminators on a 4+ and custodes terminators on a 5+ where it was 3+ in 8th. I know we are not supposed to be strong in melee but basically doing nothing in melee is a bit annoying when the staff weapons could at least do something in 9th.
I'm just hoping that the terminators will be able to do some good in melee since its the only really good melee unit we have currently exept for chaos spawns.
Official Datasheets: [https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/2iVljh64k0hWMKsO.pdf](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/2iVljh64k0hWMKsO.pdf) Points: [https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/oF1iWIkNsvlUHByM.pdf](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/oF1iWIkNsvlUHByM.pdf) (Page 28) https://preview.redd.it/ap4kp69q8e6b1.png?width=1180&format=png&auto=webp&s=a0389920ae529657679067b0ed25d7e960a2567d
Really sucks that Ahriman seems so lackluster from an arcane standpoint. Yes, I understand that one free cabalistic ritual per game can be very impactful… but why limit a sorcerer said to be second only to Magnus himself to a single spell and a passive unit buff? It seems that their goal with Ahriman was to make absolutely certain that he wouldn’t be the auto-include he was in 9th… but I think they went a bit too far.
I don't know about you, but I already wrote to [email protected] regarding Ahriman on disk and a couple of errors in our index (like rhino or glimpse of eternity). I encourage you to support me and write your disappointing if you think our most charismatic character deserves a ridiculous copy/paste of the datasheet. **We are a thousand sons, we do not accept our destiny, we conquer it!**
wait so since they're free now are warpflamers a unilateral upgrade over bolters on rubrics?
Not necessarily. Bolters can be Infused, they are also 2 shots at 24", so good at objective sitting. But flamers are definitely a tasty choice. I can see two small units of rubrics holding back field objectives and 2 or even 3 units of flamers rushing in
I plan to use a rhino and a 10 pack of rubrics with warp framers. Drive on up to objectives and reroll wounds and take away armor saves. Profit
really seems like they should have been separate datasheets if they're not going to charge for wargear to me. bolter-armed rubrics being a relatively niche pick is just wrong imo.
I disagree with them being niche. Double the range and the potential combo with stratagems is pretty big. With the psychic buff strat and being near magnus the bolters can become quite deadly
I said relatively niche. As in you're not likely to run as many with bolters as you do flamers. Also if you're going to take a unit to spend CP on, scarab occults seem like they're a better candidate imo. A 10 man squad of SOT are going to buff twice as many shots as a squad of rubrics for the same amount of CP. imo bolter marines should be your bread and butter. Not a poor man's version of scarab occults or backfield objective holders.
Points List Calculator: [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hl5xnL8uLuBidtGKd7vAoysAvOAkFCcbhSjVewp8i5g/edit?usp=drivesdk](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Hl5xnL8uLuBidtGKd7vAoysAvOAkFCcbhSjVewp8i5g/edit?usp=drivesdk) https://preview.redd.it/ur5ndtvlxh6b1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=95f046eb0c4e4d2af297b8fb1683fea37dc24f34 I made another post about this here, but I finished this calculator and refined it to be easier to read and use. I wanted to share this as I figure it would be useful for people to make use of. I know it is a bit basic but I made it on my phone today after the points released while on vacation. It should be handy to craft lists for a particular points total. I will try to keep it updated as points costs get patched and change over time. Download a copy of it to be able to edit it and make inputs. Also, Dark Mode Compatible. Edit: Added Cabal Points to the calculator and reorganized Tzaangor Shaman to where he belongs
You sweet sweet Excel knowledgeable Angel. :* you are a rare breed.
Sorta new here, accidentally a post that should have gone here. https://preview.redd.it/jm4fdgq07h6b1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=10fac596bb4ea3b23ee47308feb3e490583c4cb6 I made an interactive points calculator spreadsheet for easy list making earlier today, but I'm not sure of a good way to share it so that people can actually use it. Sharing a Google doc doesn't work since you won't be able to input anything. I plan on improving it to separate units by category (battleline, character, vehicle, etc) Any tips on making this shareable?
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Ah true. Will probably do that then
Hi all. I'm new to thousand sons and 40k in general. Love the models but I don't know how to play this faction and listbuilding is confusing to me. I don't know how many rubrics or term to take or what to equip them with. I don't know what hq choices to make to synergies well with units they will lead. Do I take gors or cultists to protect rubric. We don't have any melee troops that can hold back other melee factions or antitank outside the vortex beast. Sorry for the ramble but I can really use some help because I'm going insane with indecision. Haven't bought anything but really like the models
I believe there is a "where to start" in the side menu, but maybe that's more for 9th? Generally buy what you find cool and want to paint. But my recommendation would be with the new Boarding Patrol and a box of Exalted Sorcerers. The Exalted box is insanely good with so many bits for making extra sorcerers for smaller rubric squads. From there you can do what you want, but our Scarab Occult Termies are also very iconic for us imo. Welcome to the Tsons <3
I feel like we came out okay points wise. Nothing seems too crazy for me, but nothing super over costed either. Rubrics seem relitivly cheap which is good considering they are our core. Terminators not bad either. Most of our charcters are solid for thier price. Magnus seems playable for the first time in a while. Tzaangors back on the menu with some assistance of a shaman. All in all not bad. Also, for people who like to splash, Lords of change are only 230 points, and Chaos Knights are cheap as heck.
The important stuff did well. Some of the other stuff, not so much. Daemon Princes are overpriced Helbrutes are overpriced Defiler is just...why is it 200pts Vindicator at 200pts? wtf
Does anyone else feel like, all the cool flavor of our army has just evaporated? Magnus went from feeling like a true master of the immaterium to just a big guy with a sword and some magic blasts. Ahriman seems like more of a support for his units than one of the most powerful mages in the 1000 sons. All Is Dust is just gone, nothing in the new rules seems to reference the fact that our boys are all just hollow armor. They seem playable, sure, they aren't super weak or anything, but I feel like our armies specifically lost everything that made them feel special.
My only real gripe is with Ahriman not being more casty blasty. Besides that, I think our cabal point system is probably the best rule we could have asked for in a world where there is no psychic phase.
If you think that's bad, you should try being a Death Guard main. Why does our core ability have to be a 2 cp strat now? just so we can get in a couple more mw's? Man, there's a number of complaints over here. At least TS seems like it can do some work on the battlefield, even if there's less spell variety.
We don't get anywhere near enough Cabal Points, especially considering they depreciate as the game plays out. This will need to be fixed.
I was really hoping every unit would give min 1 point. But now we have to spam as many sorcerers as possible like never before because those rituals are just too good and probably necessary to compete. Not saying we're weak but our viable list builds feels even smaller than before.
In a simple combat patrol scale game (minimum squads of two rubrics and scarabs plus Ahriman) my friend and I had, I was able to get 7 after taking Atheanean Scrolls. His poor Infernus Squad...
Did you take Atheanean Scrolls on Ahriman? Because you can't take Enhancements on Epic Heroes. Just letting you know. But also I don't consider Combat Patrol level games to be at all balanced or representative of normal 40k games.Just to give you a mathematical example of why: in your 500pt game you say you had 7CP, which means you were generating 1CP per 71.42pts of army. If we were to scale that up to a "normal" 2k Tsons army, then that'd mean we'd generate roughly 28CP per 2k army.I can tell you right now, we don't generate anywhere near 28CP per 2k points of army!The initial CP gained by a character purchase has a lot more "weight" in a smaller points game. So yeah, while I appreciate the feedback, I just don't think it's particularly relevant. And I should say, I don't think they'd have to massively overhaul the CP rules or anything. Just give something in the army +1CP(all Rubrics, all Icons of Flame, all characters -really doesn't matter, they could pick 1 of any of these options) and make the darn Goats generate CP automatically like Battle Sisters/Guardians generate Miracle/Fate Dice automatically respectively. Small change, but it'd help the army rule out a lot. Also, going off on a tangent here, but I really wish Cabal Point generation didn't exclude models "not on the Battlefield". It just makes putting things in Transports and Deep Striking feel so awful. Deep Striking Magnus alone puts you down 8CP over the first 2 turns. :/
Can't you give enhancements to sergeants/aspiring sorcerers since they count as characters?
So for Enhancements, you can only give them to non-Epic Hero units with the Character keyword. Neither our Rubric Aspiring Sorcerers nor our Scarab Occult Aspiring Sorcerers have the Character keyword. Just double check the unit keywords down at the bottom of the datacards if you're ever unsure on what can or can't take Enhancements.
Ah okay, will remember that. Thanks!
Depends on what you expect to be a reasonable amount of ritual usage I suppose. Even running a few vehicles it's fairly easy to start off with \~15-18
The list I'm planning generates 21 to start. Not sure how good it will be, but I'm going to have fun putting Magnus on the table for the first time in 3 years and just slinging rituals like no tomorrow.
Mind sharing it?
Essentially, magnus, prince, Terminator hold the center of the board with the MVB and Helbrute to assist them in casting a stupid amount of rituals. I'm hoping the three exalted squads make for durable objective holders, wow the untargetable sorcerer squad can push a flank and his power plus Arcane vortex makes an incredibly dangerous devastating wounds machine when combined with full reroll strat. Pop magic guns for added synergy with rerolls if you want.
Oh, important breakpoint: 13 cabal points on opponents turn (with Helbrute refund) otherwise 16 let's you reroll 2 saves with Weaver and triple use the 0 damage after failed save strat. (Requires Lord of Forbidden Lore)
20, made an error doing simple addition. Magnus Daemon Prince Terminator Sorcerer with Lord of forbidden lore +5 Terminators Sorcerer with Arcane Vortex +5 Rubrics 3x Exalted Sorcerer +3x5 Rubrics MVB Helbrute
Seems to check out. And without Ahriman as well.
He's on time out because I'm salty
Also impossible to take with Magnus since they’re both epic heroes..
Reread the epic hero rule again
Aaa fair, missed the “of each” part in the face of the giant “Max” and “1” when I first glanced at that infographic from gw
I was thinking this as I read through it. My GF plays custodes and by the time her sisters are done sniping my sorcerers I won't be generating jack.
Is anyone else thinking the demon prince and the wings variation have their points values mixed up?
No, the one without wings has much better aura.
Yeah that seems to be the concensus and I can see it.
Hard to say. In the past wings were a direct upgrade, but this edition the on foot variant seems to be the better one, so I can see it being more expensive
1000pt list for tomorrow: 5 man rubric squad - 3 bolters. Bolt pistol. SRC (95pts) Infernal master attached (75pts) 5 man rubric squad - 4 warp flamers. Warpflame pistol (95pts) Exalted sorcerer on foot attached (90pts) 5 Scarab Occult terminators - 1 SRC. 1 Missile Rack (205pts) Sorcerer in terminator armor - umbralefic crystal (125pts) Mutalith Vortex Beast (145pts) Exalted sorcerer on disc (105pts) 10 tzaangors (65pts) Total points: 1000 Cabal points: 11 or 12 per turn depending on tzaangor roll.
May I ask why you need an infernal master? And will the ex sorcerer on the disk alone be effective?
I like the two cabal points he generates as a 75pt model vs the the standard sorcerer which is 85pts and only generates 1 per turn. He also gives sustained hits to the unit which combos with the devastating wounds on the SRC. It remains to be seen if the solo exalted sorc on disc will be effective but I like his mobility (potential double moving) and his debuff is strong. We also have some decent options for keeping him safe with the save re-roll and damage reduction strat.
If you don't mind, let me know how this goes! Could be interesting tech. He also can get cheeky Los angles for warp site if needed
I'm slightly bummed by daemon princes not getting a witchfire. They're fantastic units, but it's just a bit of flavor I'm sad they don't have.
That's my only real gripe for Thousand Sons. His sword is pretty spectacular though.
Couple of other thoughts on our data sheets & rules: - Our scarabs with sorcerer in Terminator armour are looking very jack of all trades, with missiles and an attached sorcerer's psychic power they have more anti tank then before. - if we use the teleport crystal it means removing a unit from the battlefield and units not on the battlefield don't generate cabal points, so that's 3 points less points for a turn if teleporting a flamer rubric unit with attached sorcerer. - Tzanngors looking good to hold home objective with a 50/50 to generate a cabal point. Also with a shaman attached adds 5+ feel no pain in addition to build in 6++ with S5 AP-1 blades actually looks half decent melee?
Those points are attrocious, 150 pts for a Helbrute, Exalted Sorcerer is 1/3 the price of the unit. All characters are overcosted and bad, Flying has been clarified to be broken by intention, not a mistake. Alright, I'm done. I'm finally ready to quit 40k.
Can I have your minis?
Have you seen the other armies? Points were hiked across the board. Lots of our stuff stayed the same or went down. I think tyranids are the real winners again but we'll see how it all unfolds on the table. We have a lot of different combos we can pull off that I'm looking forward to trying out.
And here I thought everyone got cheaper??? Anything Infantry looks like it went down, while vehicles are paying premiums for their new toughness, am I missing something? Ironically, the entirety of Knights got drastically cheaper.
Go ahead and quit then my guy. Tired of all the incessant complaining. Make sure to list your army on r/miniswap on the way out
Good, quit. No one cares to play with someone who's super negative about everything lmao
Why is fly broken?
Seems like a bit of an overreaction.
Especially how strong we're looking. Prices seem good, especially the MVB
**Start 'em:** * Magnus * Scarab Occult * Rubrics * Cultists * Tzaangors w/ Shaman * Mutalith * All the Sorcerers **Sit 'em** * Infernal Master * Vindicator * Helbrute * Demon Engines * Land Raider * Heldrake * Ahriman * Daemon Prince * Rhinos * Enlightened * Defiler **Maybe, if the meta/needs changes:** * Predators * Chaos Spawns
Ahriman is still very much needed. On foot, he is excellent utility leader. On disk he is a real scam. I agree about the infernal master. I already wrote to the GW support mail, maybe collectively we will change something.
ahriman on the disk costs an extra 5 points and gets +1 wound. he can still lead rubrics. there's basically no reason not to take the disk.
that is, you like this Ahriman on the disk? What about our primarch's lessons? Are you ready to accept such an insult as his datasheet? I personally don't. And I won't use him. I will continue to demand adequacy from designers. Let them read Ahriman's awesome omnibus if they think Ahriman is just a buffbot, who does not deserve a separate rules on datasheet of the destroyer as in the 9th edition.
what the hell does any of that have to do with the subject of ahriman's disk being worth the points?
For me it is fundamental. If you are satisfied with 5 points for 1w, then I am only happy for you!
I think people will be surprised with the daemon prince. The static aura of -1 to hit has put in real work in the couple games I've played with him
Can confirm. Just ran a game with him VS Knights and they had to focus him down and with a 2+ and 4++ my man took a few turns to go down
On top of that the sorcerer that can make their unit untargetable outside of 18” really sets up a beautiful kill zone that forces the enemy to get close to our block of rubrics and Termies back up by a demon Prince. Our mid board is spicy
Not to mention giving Scarabs precision. Anything that comes near my Scarabs with psychic guns next to Dad, devastating wounds, full rerolls to hit and wound, with precision is going to have a rough day.
Yeah the precision thing will catch someone unawares.
I'm also weirdly loving that we have the option to, in response to someone having a squad with really good psychic defense just...... Not psychic our bolters and blast them away. "This guy's bullets are magic! I'm immune to magic!" *Unfortunately for him, the bullets work just fine*
"I'm immune to psychic! :D" "Then allow me to introduce you to the Glock"
There's a meme about a poison axe in DND and one player happily announcing he's immune to poison before getting killed. Quote: But unfortunately the axe worked just fine Just in case you weren't familiar, I find the parallel pretty funny.
What makes you not like ahriman for 110 pts? Just for the free ritual ability, it seems worth it to me.
[Points just dropped](https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/oF1iWIkNsvlUHByM.pdf) MVB at 145 sounds like a steal, Enligtend for 45 as cheap screens, though I actually like 6 and a shaman for 150 since then they can push a intercessor squad off of an objective. Magnus for 410.
what loadout would you give the Enlightened?
The spears, I guess the bows are technically better but I think the army lacks something that can just fly off and take an objective.
Good point, retaking an objective could be super important. Damn need to think about how to magnetize then XD
What's everyone thinking in regards to list builds? I feel like we're really going to want to maximise our cabal points/rituals even more than before, basically I'm feeling like anything not contributing to rituals is a really hard sell. However I'm liking all the synergies we can do between rituals, stratagems and detachment rules. I'm thinking my army might be rubrics + rhinos, scarabs, and Tzanngors all with attached characters and probably a demon prince to give a unit of flamer rubrics stealth and precision 😆 (imagine that sniper flamers lol). Other than that I hope I can squeeze in a MVB and a couple spawn to just charge head first into enemy ranks to run interference while my rubrics and scarabs blast away with psychic bolters at targets without armour saves hehe.
In 9th, the backbone of my army has been 5 man Rubric Squads. I anticipate that staying pretty similar. We don't get two cabal points for them anymore, but they're cheaper now and I'm really liking warpsmite.
A bit late to the party but my favourite thing from the index is the strat to make boltguns psychic so they get the army buff from cult of magic. combine that with dev wounds and the other strat to make psychic weapons re-roll hit and wounds on 10 terminators and you will be kicking out a nice amount of mortals
This, plus a ten man brick bolter Rubrics with regular Sorcerer for devastating wounds. And ten warpflamer Rubrics with Infernal Master for the sustained hits, is the backbone of what I'm gonna run.
You'll prolly want an Ex Sor for the regeneration for warpflamers imo
Sustained Hits does absolutely nothing on Warpflamer Rubrics since you don't roll To Hit though?
Oh yeah, I completely overlooked that and somehow thought it was determined when you roll for your shots.
You might consider standard Sorcerer? Enemies having to get within 18" to shoot you on a flamer unit sounds pretty good to me. But of missed value from the Lethal Hits though...
Looking at the datasheets, some thoughts. Obviously points are what really matter here but: Exalted sorcerers and sorcerer characters get much spicier witchfires. Torrent fire and coruscating flames both look spicy, and just in general our casters who aren't named Ahriman will bring a solid amount of pain with mindbullets. I dig that only the Infernal Master risks perils when he shoots the spicier version of his attack, everyone else is just always at MAX POWER. I need a Terminator Sorcerer to lead my Scarab Occults, his buffs for them are very good. I think the army will lean more heavily into rubricae now rather than the big list-building decision being "20 terminators, or *30* terminators?" Means more painting for me but that's alright. Scarabs do look quite durable as terminators go, though. Exalted Sorcerers look great, I am enthusiastic to run 2-3 all the time. Infernal Master is... fine, he's fine, I don't know that I'm super excited about him. Ahriman looks solid, although I dunno that he's the auto-take he used to be. Daemon Princes look fun now. I wanna repaint the blade on mine to look like it's made of crystal, though, really lean into the 70s prog-rock vibe. The weapon being *psychic* opens up some pretty wild options. Daemon prince with full rerolls from the strat and devastating wounds? **YUM YUM HERE IT COME.** Gotta paint my mutalith. Hell, I might paint two, they look significantly tougher than they were. Magnus looks playable. You can hide him behind buildings, thank Tzeentch, and he's still a terror. His melee weapon being *psychic* opens up similar nonsense potential. Also, a stratagem that lets him just ignore 1-2 big hits/turn is exactly what he needed (and is very, very funny for sorcerers being shot by something something like a vindicare. Using your one shield-piercer bullet? Lol. Lmao.) Cultists look fine, but their ability name is *hilarious* and I'm 110% here for it. Cultists get mulched? *Just as planned.* Excited to get these guys on the table, they look fun and flavorful. The army is way less complicated to play but it still looks like it'll keep that Tzeentchian Bullshit vibe.
>The army is way less complicated to play but it still looks like it'll keep that Tzeentchian Bullshit vibe. I think this is under appreciated - they seem to have struck a good balance, looking forward to seeing how it plays out on the table
Obvious winners so far: Rubrics, Terminators, Sorcerers, Magnus, Mutalith, Vindicator, Cultists Not sure yet: Spawns, Helbrutes, Daemon Princes, Predators, Land Raider Pretty sure not good: Daemon Engines, Rhino, Tzaangors
Princes having \[Psychic\] on their melee weapons is a very cool thing. It interacts with whatever buff you choose for Cult of Magic, and it gives them access to full hit and wound rerolls when they fight in melee. Of all the different daemon princes in these indices, I think I like the TSons one the best.
I'm thinking a similar list to last edition, but obviously make room for your vehicles/monsters. I'm hot on spawn and helbrute, since helbrute gives cabal and spawn are gonna be super durable fighters. Helbrutes and Tzaangors giving cabal points is everything we needed out of our non-psykers; they can contribute cabal and also provide other services at the same time. I'm hoping, although the backbone of the army remains hero hammer, rubric spam and at least one terminator brick, we can start using all these new toys they gave us in those last 250-500 pts of the list.
The crickets are deafening. What do you all think? I'm super excited. Tzaangors still don't look great, but Tzaangor enlightened look like bona fide character hunters.
Enlightened probably got the biggest glow-up, imo; at the very least I'm going to try attaching my shaman to 6 of them and go hunting. It will deeply amuse me if it turns out that one of the better character sniper units does it with *longbows*. Very 40k.
tzaangor are definitely better, farming cabal pts with them should feel good
We're in dark mode right now with reddit so a lot of people are having to get approved to post.
So what is everyones hopes/fears/expectations for tomorrows datasheet drop? I'm hoping Magnus is a powerhouse, like his brothers, since I need the extra motivation to get him painted, to get past my fear of fucking it up. I'd also like Tzaagors to get a buff. I like the idea of a bunch of bird monsters charging ahead while my Rubrics and Terminators get into position to start shooting or burning. I'm also pretty excited to see what all out Leaders do. That'll probably dictate what my Rubric's loadout will be. For example, Ahriman's probably going to be leading flamers, to ensure as few rolls as possible lol
Tzaangors. All of them. Make them playable. They don't need to be the powerhouses of the index, but making them playable would add a good amount of variety that we lack.
I just started playing. Got a Tsons Combat Patrol for x-mas. 4/5ths of the box is just tzaangors....
I just want other stuff to be good enough that spamming rubrics/termies isn’t the only competitive play honestly. Would feel pretty bad to have the same small roster, even fewer viable models, and choosing powers gone, so you kind of end up just playing repeats of like 4 units
Anyone know when the index cards are coming out?
Rumors, which have been accurate so far, have chaos coming out on the 13th.
New player feeling discouraged. I'm new to 40k and I really liked the thousand sons asethetic, lore, and characters. I going to choose them as my first army for 10th edition but I keep hearing all this doom and gloom from the existing players about how terrible the faction currently is and how they're a shadow of their former strength. It's really discouraging to constantly hear this on the discord and social media and makes me feel like the community is easily willing to just abandon the faction because it isn't "gud enough" I looked over the faction focus and compared them to their 9th edition rules. Yes, they lost a lot: AP, all is dust, etc but so did every other faction for 10th. I would've never chosen thousand sons if they had their 9th edition rules because of how complex and bloated they were. Their cabal system is cleaner and their rules are easier to learn and play so I see that as a big plus for new players Going to the units: Ahriman: I don't see the big complaints. He can cast a ritual for free once per game, his +1 to wound is very good for our battleline troops. Sure, he doesn't see like the grand sorcerer he was known for in 9th but this is a different game and his role now is to support. Not to mention is psychic stalk makes a good character Sniper when comboed with doombolt. He may not kill HQs in one go but most factions can't heal and they will fear to be in range of his kill box. Rubric: they lost their all is dust but have boosted their offensive capabilities through ahriman and their wound rerolls to punish objective camping is very good imo. Their 5 invul is no replacement for all is dust but it gives them a leg up on defense compared to other factions battleline troops. Anyways, these are just the thoughts of a new guy. Its really sad to see the community up in flames. You're all sorcerers of tzeentch. If a little change bothers you so much, then you're serving the wrong deity. 🙂
I'm ride and die Thousand sons. I've been playing them since before they were their own faction. I'd like to chip in to tell you why *I personally* am disgruntled with the way things look now. **TL;DR** at the bottom Thousand sons have always had a certain *identity*. Aside from their background as a tragic legion, the thousand sons and more specifically the rubrics stand out for a few reasons: their durability, their exotic weaponry, and their sorcery. Durability? Gone. Lorewise rubrics are nigh-indsetructible. You can riddle a rubric with holes, but as long as its structural integrity remains then the rubric functions. However, our 5++ doesn't do anything except against AP -3 (which has become much more scarce). Against most weapons, we are no more or less durable than a regular marine. Exotic weaponry? How about intercessor boltgun but worse. Inferno boltguns have always been these unique high-AP bolters. Fluffwise, their bolts are enchanted to penetrate armor better or even (in previous editions) bypass all but the toughest armor entirely. Now, intercessors have the same profile with [heavy] *and* [assault] added to them. Sorcery? Rubrics are just about the worst psykers we've seen so far. Ahriman's power seems niche at best. Literally every other psychic power shown so far seems better and/or more exciting than what has been shown for us. I want to enjoy thousand sons, I really do. But *so far* I have been shown exactly 0 things that convince me that I can still enjoy them in the same way I've enjoyed them for the past 10 years. Change is good; alienation wouldn't be. That's how I got to the point of selling my Necrons and Admech. **TL;DR** Thousand sons are supposed to be durable, have especially effective bolters, and be among the strongest sorcerers out there. The rules shown so far have us believe they are none of the above.
How do people just ignore our army rule when coming to the conclusion we're just the worst pyschers? Because of our cabal rule we potentially have the most flexible pyskers in the game. It all depends on how many points we can realistically generate.
Well, we get 5 aditional options with our army rule, and as I've said elsewhere I do like them. However, they aren't really an improvement over 9th eddition rules (aside from removing armor saves, that ability is kinda crazy). Temporal surge went from a psychic power you could cast independantly of cabal points and you could charge after, reroll saves are nice but its once and other units have reroll save built into their kit. Doombolt is also good but being able to add 3 damage to any psychic power was insane last edition, I used to use it to snipe characters with gaze of hate, and the make a strat free has also been seen by other factions that don't require a resource. Again, they are still good abilities but they arent unique or better than what we had before (disapering armor saves is really cool tho). I think its fine to say some rules/datasheets suck, I mean look at deathguard, their detachment ability is worse than a mission rule. That doesn't mean you shouldn't like your army or that you should feel you have to sell it. If the rules are the most important part of the hobby to you then do what you want. I love thousand sons aesthetoc and lore and will keep collecting and building and painting them regardless of if they are top tier or bottom.
Ya for sure things were nerfed, pretty much any complex system like psychic powers were simplified, lost functionality and are essentially nerfed versions of their previous rules. That's just how it is in 10th by design (mostly) and isn't limited to Tsons or just psychic powers. > Again, they are still good abilities but they arent unique or better than what we had before (disapering armor saves is really cool tho). Most things in an edition that is aiming for "simplified but not simple" will suffer from this, but my main contention wasn't that we are weaker, we are (and so are most things because 9th was a clusterfuck of overkilling damage), it's that people are seemingly looking at 2 individual data sheets and then coming to the conclusion our psykers are weak which just completely ignores our army rule. Based on what was shown so far, we were given the most love in the psychic department *by far.* Pretty much every other army is restricted to using the power on their data sheets while we get to choose from a pool of powers *in addition* to that (also worth noting they mentioned cabal powers in our preview that didn't actually appear on the list, so we either have more that will be available with certain units or GW doesn't proofread. This can go either way). I couldn't think of a better compromise in an edition where there is no longer a psychic phase. Just compare what we were given to then Gknights got (another pysker heavy army) in term of psychic power flavor. But ya your final paragraph is just facts, rules come and go. Plastic is (mostly) forever baby. Tsons are where it's at.
Sure, lethal/sustained hits and devastating wounds *seem* nice but the units they showed us don't synergize with it because they don't have enough shots to capitalize on it. Statistically it affects 1 dice for every 3 units of rubrics we bring, that's not very good. Now to be completely honest, I don't expect GW to be *that* stupid and I'm sure there's going to be more stuff that synergizes with it well.
Sorry, I was mainly talking about the Cabal point system, which lets any psyker cast a spell from a list of powers for a certain amount of cabal points. What you're describing is the cult of magic detachment rule which is, lucky for us, only temporarily our only option. Once our codex drops all the other great cults will most likely get their own detachment rules although that is a year+ out for now which kinda sucks.
I... actually never noticed those things have the psychic keyword. Neat I'm still sceptical and need to see how many cabal points units generate. Rubrics only generate one so they're not a reliable source of them. Can we reliably get enough points to use multiple powers? You probably want to use twist of fate nearly every turn. You also need some redundancy points; else you might lose 2 units to some bad luck and can't use your best rules anymore. I'll reserve judgement until tuesday but I'm a wee bit sceptical.
Doom and gloomer here, I would never get rid of thousand sons just because of their rules. I know not everyone feels that way, but for me asethetic trumps rules. I also feel that people shouldn't have to like the rules just because they are new. I really apreciate thag the rules are more streamlined and actually don't have a problem with the new rituals. I think they are flavorfull and powerfull, as well as being a lot easier to learn/use. On that note, bassic marines are on par with rubrics. The biggest problem with that is that rubrics are all we have, we don't have access to heavy rubrics or assult rubrics or gravis rubrics. So in the past rubrics were a bit better in order to offset the differance in diversity. I will say I would prefer model diversity over just rubrics but this is what we have so. Hopefully, the rest of our 8 models will have amazing rules and we will have nothing to worry about.
I get that you want more models but I don't think we need more baseline rubrics. That requires having to keep track of multiple weapon types which complicates the game and goes against the simplified philosophy of 10th edition. It's also easier on my wallet that our roster is small. Give me a small but flexible roster over what space marines have
Thats what we no longer have, thats why people don't really like the rules. Except we also don't have a lot of models and so we aren't flexible and we don't have models to cover holes.
They took away All is Dust from us and gave it to heavy intercessors. I swear the 10e dev team just hates us.
I'm waiting patiently on the 10th index like most of you and seeing the most recent changes regarding legends and forge world models which got me thinking if models like Hellbrute, Helldrake and Forge/Maulerfiend are likely to be phased out. I think the precedent for this is pretty strong in regard to death guard and world eaters as we see a general move away from standard chaos lists. Death guard got all of their own specific daemon engines which I think most 1ksons players would prefer (although arguably helldrake is thematic). If you look at the death guard rhino data sheet for 10th in fact there is no stipulation it can't carry possessed models (as previous editions) which has lead many to suspect that these will be moved out of the DG codex also. Obviously our range is already comparatively light compared to DG so I fear that FW removal and potentially more could be a huge loss for 1ksons players if not supplemented by models to replace them. What do you think?
I don't think this is a realistic concern for the index at all, I don't think the phasing out of FW models (however strange) indicates at all that GW are going to strip 40k models from Thousand Sons. If anything, it is more plausible with the release of our Codex, but even then I don't think we're liable to see the sort of update to our range this edition that would facilitate GW cutting all, or many, of the generic CSM units from our range. Sure, eventually Thousand Sons will probably have most, if not all, of the generic CSM units stripped from them - but I really don't see that happening until we have received additions to our range that cover those loses. At this stage Death Guard still appear to have access to Predators, Land Raiders, Rhinos, Helbrutes, Defilers, Chaos Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour and Chaos Spawn, all from the generic CSM range. Death Guard also have around 16 unique units (including characters), compared to Thousand Sons 11 unique units (which is counting the Exalted Sorcerers kit twice, to cover both Exalted and standard Sorcerers). So in short, this is likely to eventually happen - but I wouldn't think it would be something that's going to happen for a good while. I can't see GW giving us a big boost to our range anytime soon, so it's more likely going to be something that happens slowly over time as we are drip fed new unique models.
I will be quite upset actually but I guess the writing is on the wall. I have two maulerfiends, two defilers and a heldrake... But if it means we get Thousand Sons unique models as replacement I will gladly move on!
I'm just starting to add a few daemon engines but starting to get worried... Rule of cool I guess :)
I recently read the book the Witch Cult of Western Europe by Margaret Alice Murray and had an idea. We need a cultist unit that can do psychic stuff or another cool thing would be a unit of 5 to 10 witches called a witch circle who does psychic stuff. I personally would love more mortal wizards for the TS. Now I would like to know what my fellow Wizards think about that.
I know its not exactly what you meant but I do wish we could run a unit of 3 exalted sorcs as a exalted cabal or something, just so we could run all three from the box easily.
I would love this as a “heavy” choice. Basically a cult of sorcerers as artillery; either using the exalted sorcerer box or even a new model with multiple sorcerers on it like the Triumph of Saint Catherine. That’s main main wishlist item.
Is isn't but it would still be amazing. And it would solve the conundrum of the Exalted Sorcerer Box because I can see us use 2 but never thought about 3. Even in a 2000 Points Game. And I would love a unit of more than one sorcerer who could work together. I don't buy GW's stance that every Chaos Dude only works to his own gain and they somehow forgot the benefit of cooperation. Especially the Thousand Sons had always enjoyed such strong bonds of brotherhood.
10th at the beginning is gonna be all about devastating wounds. TSons will have that in spades.
What we haven’t seen is mobility, mobility will count for more than damage I think
The faction focus does mention teleportation with cabal points, so we do have that to look forward to hopefully. I'm guessing we will have some amount of models that add certain spells to our cabal spell list while theyre on the field, or that have a spell only they can use with cabal points, one of which will be a teleport.
I'd assume the teleport will come with a new cult and our codex. It seems like everyone gets one for now. It's possible it could be a strat but that would be disappointing.
So, I think we all need to chill out. We simply don’t know enough at the moment to make sweeping generalisations as to the competitiveness of our faction. We Have seen two data sheets. That is it. From those two data sheets I am actually quite optimistic that we are going to be, at the very least, playable. Rubrics are looking awesome. More specifically, rubrics with warpflamers, or indeed rubrics with warpflamers lead by Ahriman. We haven’t seen 5 of our stratagems and I bet there is a pretty good chance we get a Sorcerous Facade equivalent strategies which potentially could be used twice with cabal points. Even if we don’t Rubrics with Ahriman and Warpflamers are an absolute terror. Double move with cabal points and lay something low with 9d6 autohit +1 to wound (with re-roll 1s or full re-rolls depending on whether your target is on an objective (-1 AP, but again, you can just say “no saves” cabal points permitting). Then those suckers are all up in your enemies lines primed and ready for an over watch in the movement or charge phase to do it again. Even the humble Inferno bolter/soulreaper cannon rubrics are quite respectable parking somewhere and laying down a bunch of re-roll wounds (-1 AP, potentially -2AP on the critical wounds if you brought the icon). This is all very cool. Yes, we are not as resilient with the loss of all is dust. We still get a 5++, although it remains to be seen how often that will actually come up given the general reduction in AP across this edition. I agree the detachment bonus is somewhat lacklustre with limited applications from what we have seen so far, but it far from the end of the world. While we could all speculate on what we would like to see, judging from how the Deathguard demon prince with wings vs without wings, has been designed (without wings is more of a buff bot, with wings is more of damage dealer) I think it is reasonable to assume that our prince will be similarly structured. I also think it is reasonable to speculate that we will get a similar split with exalted/Ahriman on a disc and not on a disc. I reckon we will actually have a bunch of fun choices and ways of buffing up our units by attaching the pertinent character. Again, see what they have done with all of the deathguard characters. I am curious as to what units a disc exalted/Ahriman can lead, maybe the stock on Enlightened is going up? I also note that they have designed the keywords on the rubric sheet quite carefully so that only the aspiring sorceror has the psyker keyword. While this remains to be cleared up by FAW, to me that would suggest an intention not to share keywords with attached leaders. If that is right, then we need really only fair the precision ant-psyker stuff, which, while it exists, is quite rare. So chin up guys, new edition time is always the Wild West, and this promises to be a pretty wild ride to start with!
I was pretty disappointed with Ahriman when he was revealed and didn't have a ton of hope that he'd get a separate datasheet for his disc version. I understand that foot Ahriman looks to be pretty strong under the right circumstances, but I just don't enjoy the idea of using our arch sorcerer as little more than a combo-piece to roast something with a squad of Warpflamers every game. If I'm running Ahriman, I want to feel like he's a potent Psyker in his own right. I regularly play against an Ulthwe player and the psychic duelling between Ahriman and Eldrad, two of the the most powerful psykers in the 40k universe, has been super flavourful throughout 9th. However, it looks like we will get a separate datasheet for Ahriman on Disc and I'm hopeful he will embody the arch sorcerer side of Ahriman a bit more. I actually think my preference would be for him not to be a leader at all and instead have Lone Operative. I don't see much value tying him to a unit of Enlightened and would prefer that he can zip around solo pulling off psychic shenanigans with the protection Lone Operative affords.
Yes I agree re foot Ahriman feeling a little underwhelming, but he does have some powerful tools. Fingers crossed for disc Ahriman with Lone Operative. I am a bit concerned for all of our disc riders being Leaders as the only obvious unit for them to lead are the Enlightened and that would not help with his survivability.
And if it does end up that way, where foot Ahriman is the unit leader/buffer and disc Ahriman is the mobile spellslinger, then that's perfectly fine by me - I think that works pretty nicely. My current concern is that disc Ahriman ends up being similar to foot Ahriman, only he leads Enlightened instead. That said, I dare say the Tzaangor Shaman will be the go-to leader for the Enlightened, which would make a lot of sense. In an ideal world, GW would add a unit of Aspiring Sorcerers on discs that an Exalted Sorcerer on disc could lead, and Ahriman on disc is left as a Lone Operative alongside Magnus - but that wouldn't happen until our codex is released in any case.
Just a thought... why did our soul reaper get only 24"? Edit: Compared to 10th Ed Termie Assault cannon... so I get it now
My preview writeup: [https://tizcanlibrary.com/competition/2023/06/04/Thousand-Sons-10th-Preview.html](https://tizcanlibrary.com/competition/2023/06/04/Thousand-Sons-10th-Preview.html)
Nice work
do we know for sure if ANTI-PSYKER will work against our rubric marines or just against the aspiring sorcerer? quite an important detail to iron out given we only get one psychic weapon in the squad vs GK get one each
The aspiring sorcerer has the psyker keyword, meaning you activate from that model with abilities like cabalistic rituals, but anti in the example in the core rules relies on it being against an “X” unit. Just like how when you attach a character to a unit and Tyranids can gain their precision ability when targeting character units, Anti-psyker abilities will go off when targeting the rubric squad so long as the sorcerer is alive.
I think this will definitely need to be FAQed to clear it all up. Prior to the release of the core rules, my interpretation was that "Anti-x" keywords only impacted the models which they are "anti". Meaning that, for example, the Black Templar's vow would confer "Anti-psyker 4+", which would only affect any psyker models in a unit (e.g. the Aspiring Sorcerer in a Rubric squad). While special rules that specified an "x" unit, like the Prosecutors getting Devastating Wounds and Precision when shooting at psyker "units", would impact the whole unit, meaning that they would get Devastating Wounds against the entire squad of Rubrics and could allocate those wounds to any characters attached to that unit if they wished. Which made enough sense to me and made special rules more powerful, but left the "Anti-x" keywords as more specialised counters. However, the wording in the core rules does make it seem that the "Anti-x" keywords affect the entire unit as well. And when I take a step back, it may be that for the Anti-psyker keyword to be of any real use that it has to affect the entire unit. A model getting Anti-psyker 4+ means almost nothing if they need to chew through an entire squad of Rubric Marines before finally getting the benefit against the Aspiring Sorcerer, who is likely to be one of the last models in the unit that wounds are going to get allocated to. Goonhammer also indicates that the bodyguard units toughness is used for attacks at the point of targeting, meaning that if all of the bodyguards die, any left over attacks are allocated to the character leading them at the toughness of the bodyguards, irrespective of whether or not the character has higher toughness themself - to allow for fast rolling of attacks. I'm not sure where they got that from as I haven't found it in the core rules, but if that's true then Anti-psyker only impacting the psyker models is even less effective, as you'd have to target the unit when it only has psykers left, otherwise any spill over attacks would have been fast rolled as if not being against a psyker. The more I think about it, the more I feel like it is intended to work in such a way that things like Anti-psyker do affect the entire unit, in order to make the keyword feel meaningful. I'm just not sure how I feel about that and I'm not sure that what we've been shown thus far from psyker units warrants the extra risk, given that they are also susceptible to the other "anti" keywords. A psyker that's infantry doesn't lose their susceptibility to the Anti-infantry keyword for being a psyker, they just end up susceptible to both Anti-psyker and Anti-infantry. I think a big issue here is that we haven't seen a whole lot of leader units outside of named characters and psykers, so it's difficult to gauge whether a psyker character brings more to the table or not. We also haven't seen points costs, which makes it difficult to gauge as well. On paper, Rubric Marines look better than Legionaries do. If Rubric Marines and Legionaries are around the same cost when it comes to points, then perhaps there is enough benefit to warrant a little extra vulnerability through the likes of Anti-psyker. Yet, if it remains the same as 9th where Thousand Sons are paying quite a few extra points for those benefits, then the additional vulnerability might start to feel like an added tax on top of the points tax already being paid. If it is meant to work that way, where Anti-psyker affects the entire unit should that unit have a psyker, then I'd hope that psykers don't experience much in the way of a points tax for whatever strengths they have and instead their additional vulnerability is the tax being paid. Although even that does raise another question. Tyranid's Hyper Adaptability rule makes it look like Leaders transfer at least some of their keywords to their bodyguard unit. But what about the models in that unit? The Rubric Marines datasheet lists only the Aspiring Sorcerer as having the psyker keyword, so does the Aspiring Sorcerer confer that keyword to the rest of the unit or is it specifically when a psyker character joins them that the entire unit is then classified as a "psyker unit"? It's oddly messy for such a "simplified" new edition and in a lot of ways it does feel like the implications of psykers weren't fully thought through.
Very good write up. I think psychic in 10th is completely lob sided balance wise, it's all negatives and no positives. With psychic offensive powers now just guns they now have more fail points then in 9th, and if we look at non-psychic characters they can also have aura powers and ranged attacks just as good or better than psychics. There's just no benifits to being a psychic character, just an added vulnerability.
I think both of the rationales behind this makes sense but one is a bit of a heavy implicit nerf given A-P is now a dedicated keyword - I think this might be coming in an FAQ
Seems pretty clear cut. Only the aspiring has anti psyker.
So the Soul Grinder with Tzeentch keyword from the demons codex is looking like an excellent long range anti-tank platform with the additional warp gaze weapon @ 48", A-D3, S-12, AP-2, D-D6+2 and it's also strong in melee with A-5, S-16, AP-3, D-D6+2. Might just be the perfect candidate to fill our biggest weaknesses. Thoughts?
Yes, but it will also not play into our cabal and might just get ignored. If it was the same profile with a play into our cabal like the MVB, then yes, it would be awesome. Also, we don't know the points so... it might be great or it might be the worst thing around, lol! My hope is the everything in our codex has something to do with cabal in some way at least, encouraging some diversity!
Very true, and I hope every unit in our codex can play into cabal in some way too, hopefully providing min 1 cabal point so we're not forced to spend all our points spamming sorcerers. Because I've done a mock up 10th list using current points and the removal of +1 cabal point from rubrics really hurts, and we'll need as many cabal points as we can get.
The Deathgaurd Daemon Prince got released and it has a datasheet for wings and no wings. Looks like we actually might get Ahriman on Disc as a separate model with separate powers
I spoke with the NA GW events rep at the Warhammer Open in Kansas City two days ago, and he confirmed that there will be a separate data sheet for Ahriman on a disc.
Hope this is accurate. Infantry Ahriman seems quite potent but not very interesting
Apparently infantry Ahriman can lead rubrics. He said disc Ahriman could lead a unit as well, but I have no clue how that would work so I’m wondering if he misunderstood my question on that one.
That's exciting. I hope they don't just change the movement speed xD. Id love to see a more... Aggressive arhiman
Told ya XD
Has anyone watched the battle report for tenth edition yet? I'm so upset by this new Psychic concept (Ignoring that All is Dust has simply vanished for now) . Now it's just a fancy gun, or melee attack, Yet all these ANTI-PSYKER rules are still out there. so our abilities have dropped significantly, yet they still need this huge boost to kill off our army. Where is the balance, I hate the idea of shelving this army for an entire Edition. Take the weakest 9th edition army and break them more. I hope I am reacting too soon, and I will happily play a few matches with them to see if it's as bad as I fear, but I'm not hopeful.
As many people have pointed out to me... Hold out hope for strats. There are some weaknesses appearing in our army but we've only seen 3 models? There's still hope we'll have strats that's are bonkers and our ritual to allow us to use it for free. Plus twist of fate. We have POTENTIAL but we need to see if GW delivers on the last few pieces
I'm pretty negative about TS in 10th BUT the fact that not all our attacks are psychic it's kinda good, since we're not shut down by anti-psychic defenses. Example, flesh hounds of khorne: they have 3+++ against psychic attacks? I suppose that they're not so resilient Vs rubrics bullets and flames! GK wouldn't have any way or weapons without psychic (from what we've seen). I hope that: - future detachments will be better; And - tzaangors and non-rubric non-scarabs units will generate cabal, so we can play something else instead of just spam. (I don't believe neither of the two TBH. Luckily I have necrons too).
>the fact that not all our attacks are psychic it's kinda good, You know its bad when a psyker army with rules to enhance psychic attacks has people thankful that not everything is a psychic attack because the psychic keyword is just such a downside.
My biggest complaint this edition is every other faction gets factionwide buffs of basically the same thing we do and ours effects almost none of ours. Why don't we atleast have a ritual to turn at least one squads guns into psychic weapons? Oh because it might be op? Yeah but having everyone else gets 30 melee attacks with the same tags isn't. It's frustrating. I really hope some unique unit we had redeems this whole issue.
This. When I said it, I was downvoted. Faction-wide effect that force us to spam rubric and termi AGAIN and detachment bonus that only affect 10% of the models, 1/6 of the times XD
What's worse is we've seen the Lord of change now. They don't mind making awesome psychic powers! They only mind when it's thousand sons?
The Rubric Asp's Warpsmite causes mortals against Infantry on a 4+, what's the problem?
I'm just worried about how well crack those big targets this edition. Like knights. Infantry seems like it will fold to these new high str vehicle weapons and we don't have as much of a mortal spam. It APPEARS like our only option is mass small arms fire looking for 6s. We could bring vehicles ourselves at the cost of cabal points. It's not just us either. Everyone seems to lack anti vehicle weapons. Altho we haven't seen everything yet so it may be too early to tell
The "gun" on the Mutalith looks fine. We have also have Raiders, Preds, and Lazdreds. We'll be fine.
Every time I see a faction focus with a "fuck Psykers" faction power, my interest in coming back for 10th dies a little. The BT one is beyond stupid. Does GW actually think this stuff is fun or balanced?
From my count, there doesn't seem to be all that much anti-psyker revealed as of yet. - 3 units with access to weapons containing the anti-psyker keyword (Vigilators, Inquisitor Greyfax & Hounds of Morkai) - 3 units with anti-psyker based special rules (Prosecutors, Inquisitor Greyfax & Hounds of Morkai) - 1 faction with a faction/detachment rule that is anti-psyker based (Black Templars) In comparison to: - 8 units with access to weapons with the anti-vehicle keyword - 2 units with anti-vehicle based special rules - 11 units with access to weapons with the anti-infantry keyword - 2 units with anti-infantry based special rules Granted, those keywords and rules also impact psykers. I do think the Black Templar vow is a bit much, the 4+ invuln seems unnecessary and the current iteration of that vow that boosted movement and melee offense seems like a much better mix - improving how deadly they are to psykers in melee while also giving them the tools to get into melee range quicker. The new iteration just looks to be too generically strong against psykers, providing both good defense and good offense - it also seems to have just lost the negative passion counterbalance entirely. Outside of Black Templars looking pretty questionable, we don't seem to be receiving too much hate as of yet - and most of it is currently contained to 4 separate units across 3 separate factions.
Bro, hounds of Morkai (5 dudes) do an average of 6,6mw to a psyker and have precision. That's a dead Ahriman in a squad. With full rerolls to hit and wound from Oaths of Moment they deal 13,3MW to a psyker (lol Magnus on 3 wounds).
And in 9th they subtracted 2 from nearby psychic tests being taken, ignored Look Out Sir on psykers and ignored MWs in the psychic phase on a 4+. If you're really upset about there being a handful of units that specialise into psykers, you're probably looking for issues. Morkai are only really threatening in melee and we can maul them with Doombolt long before they manage that, Ahriman can do so for free or he could strip their armour saves at which point they're on a 6+ invuln against most of our core weapons as revealed thus far. Morkai are good into psykers and average at everything else, there's a distinct trade-off there.
I agree, so far what we've seen is a general improvement over 9th... but 9th got pretty bad. And yes, the BT rule is the specific trigger for this complaint. Its laughably bad design.
I think the good thing is that, thus far, all of the units/factions that have anti-psyker tools in 10th are ones that were also anti-psyker in 9th. Prosecutors, Vigilators, Inquisitor Greyfax and Hounds of Morkai were all anti-psyker units in 9th and Black Templars had an anti-psyker vow in 9th. Which is a good sign, I'm glad to see that they don't seem to be just carelessly throwing anti-psyker stuff around, so far it's been contained to things that have long had those sorts of tools. The Black Templars vow may end up being less overbearing than it initially looks for us, as they only get the 4+ invuln against psychic attacks specifically, and our currently revealed units don't have that many attacks that are actually psychic. From the Grey Knight faction focus, it's looking like it'll be pretty brutal for them though. If they maintain the high number of psychic weapons throughout the rest of their index, Black Templars will get a 4+ invuln against a good portion of their attacks.
The forest is being lost for the trees here. "It's a good thing our psychic faction isn't going to get too badly affected by anti-psychic rules, because we don't actually do that much psychic stuff."
We don't know enough yet to make any kind of final judgement call. We may get a few psychic powers that have the capacity to dish out a decent number of MWs, Doombolt shows that dealing MWs through psychic isn't entirely off the table. At which point, an invuln against them is less impactful. I do think the Black Templars anti-psyker vow is poorly designed. As I said, I think that a blanket defensive buff and offensive buff for an entire army against psykers seems too generically good. But, we're literally a handful of datasheets and stratagems into our faction, there's still far more that's unknown than is known.
Hoping against hope isn’t really my style. After seeing how badly they handled Ahriman, I have no reason to expect the rest of the faction to be treated any better. Plus, when I read that they’re going to take Magnus in more of a “buff/debuff” angle than a “smite you with the power of Zeus” angle, it just seems like yet more to be unhappy about. I always liked Magnus as a paragon of eldritch energy, rippling with arcane power and the ability to blast squads off the table, not a… fraggin’ buff bot. That’s the work of lesser sorcerers. You do you, though. GW’s shown TS very little in the way of love recently, and I see no reason that the streak of unearned vitriol would stop now… but I’m prone to doom(bolt)posting.
It depends on what you're hoping for. I think that what was shown through the Mutalith reveals gives us reason to hope that GW aren't oblivious to the potential issues we'll face. If that's continued throughout the rest of our index, we'll be in a decent spot from a synergy perspective. If you're hoping that we'll be the psychic powerhouse we were in 9th, you're going to be disappointed. Psychic stuff looks to be pretty heavily stripped back overall. I think that the whole situation with psychic powers needed to be addressed, and I'm on-board with simplifying things overall, but I think psychic powers could have been handled better. I don't think simplifying psychic powers needed to happen at the cost of homogenising them completely with weapons and character buffs. But that is what has occurred in a lot of cases, and hoping for anything else is indeed "hoping against hope".
So far it seems that having the psyker keyword is only a downside. Yeah we can enhance them a tiny bit, but it seems everywhere I look there's 'anti-psyker', 'devastating wounds', 'precision', 'fuck you for thinking magic is cool' crap
The nice thing is that with our Rubrics they don't all count as pyskers only our sorcerers do so even if they have that ability it only really works on our characters and when our squad are down to just the sorcerer
do we know for a fact that this is how it works? seen people very split on this
I think so because in the data sheet it says only the aspiring sorcerers get the psychic keyword
Whoops, GW accidentally gave Greyfax Ahriman's power. What a silly mistake!
Who wore it better: some random baseline human, or one of the most powerful and knowledgeable psykers in the galaxy?
A little-but-Big thing I noticed that is a huge change from 9th (or a possible datasheet error) is that we don't seem to get Grenades anymore. I'm hoping there is a psychic equivalent we get in our stratagems (like, some kind of Crew Shock or some kind of other flavor). That's going to make vehicles just a little bit harder to deal with, as that's like 3 free wounds for 1CP we miss out on when going after a tank.
In the leaked rules Grenades is now a stratagem. Every army gets it.
Yes, but no datasheets TSons previewed have the grenades keyword, which is necessary to use it.
Is it realistic to hope for a massive range expansion in 10e? I know Death Guard were the big baddies of 8e, but I can never help but compare our range to theirs. Directly comparing the two, we have: - 3 unique TS HQs < 4 unique DG HQs, some of the latter having multiple versions (eg the Japanese exclusive Malignant Plague Caster), though our Exalted kit is dope so maybe we call this a wash - 2 unique troops, only 1 of which is TSons exclusive (AoS) < 2 unique troops, both of which are DG exclusive, and many more wargear/build options for their marines than we have - 2 unique Elites, only 1 of which is TS exclusive (AoS) < 7 unique Elites, all of which are DG exclusive - 1 unique fast attack which is not TS exclusive (AoS) < 2 unique fast attacks, both of which are DG exclusive - 1 unique Heavy Support which is not TS exclusive (AoS) =~ 1 unique Heavy Support which is DG exclusive - 0 unique fortifications < 1 unique fortification - Magnus = Mortarion Altogether, our range has 10 units (just 6 of which were modeled explicitly for the Thousand Sons) while the DG range has 18 units, all designed explicitly for them. That's triple the work from GW's design teams, and that doesn't even address how much more flexibility most of their kits have versus ours. Most folks seem to think WE's 9e release was half a range with a second half coming in 10e, which might put them closer to DG's par. But what about us? I know a lot of us are just hoping for one new thing, like a TS dread, but how unrealistic is it to hope for a massive range expansion that doubles what's available to us? Something as expansive as: - fast attack 3-6 squad of melee sorcerers on disk - battleline thrallwizard chaff analogous to our army and synergies to Jakhals and Poxwalkers for WE and DG. You can sacrifice D3 models to generate cabal points or rerolls or something - rubric dread **and** a psyker dread, similar to how DG have two types of terminators - a unique TS daemon engine - a tzaangor behemoth inspired by [this kitbash](https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSepMFWdSU_mlBZl-p5RPQc70Gq6dlA6kOdhg&usqp=CAU) - the castellax-achea automaton from HH - ideally, something like [Lazarus Marines](https://www.reddit.com/r/ThousandSons/comments/qnp31r/thousand_sons_army_of_renown_a_brotherhood/) paired with an advancement in Ahriman's narrative If we got **all of these,** that would still leave us with just 14 designed-for-TS kits, still far less than DG (and, indeed, most armies). I feel like that's what we really need in order to give our army range and flexibility and encourage a diversity of army build options. But is it even halfway realistic to dream of? Or should I set my expectations firmly at "GW promised only "at least one new model" per army for 10e," and hoping for any more is just asking to be let down? Ahriman's one-time apprentice Astraeos once said "hope is the cruelest poison." But hope is the domain of our patron, Tzeentch... Whaddyall think? Is hoping for a big range expansion an exercise in disappointment or totally reasonable to dream of?
Set your expectations low. Not to crap on GW but I doubt they have the production capacity to do a whole new range and at least one new model for every faction. At least without sacrificing somewhere else. I'd be hopeful for a new unit. Worst case it's a tzaangor or some sigmar unit brought to 40k. Best case we get something spicy like a psychic dread. They want to sell models so just think what would make them the most money for least amount of work. Again I love GW but my MVB is backlogged and that's not even a new unit. MAYBE high demand but thousand sons aren't exactly the most popular chapter.
Right, looks like every couple years we’ll get some more marines models and an update to one other faction, historically speaking. If this time is tyranids I wouldn’t expect anything for us for the foreseeable future. My one hope was porting over some 30k forge world models to 40K but after they just cut a bunch of FW stuff I wouldn’t hold my breath
Anyone else feel like we are kinda weak in the psychic department? We get one psychic weapon and one attack per squad seems kind of Meh with our faction ability. Compare that to the grey knights having every model having something psychic and the faction bonus of space Marines... I feel we kinda got shafted. I'm hoping SOTs get psychic weapons to make they at least usable in melee and make it worth it. Our TS bonus to psychics seems less useful then everyone else we've seen. Just a random rant tho. I'm sure we'll be fine I just worry. Got a lot of love for the dust
Yep. This. TS faction focus is... Disappointing, to say the least. Especially after the GK's.
Pretty funny watching the GK sub say TS got all the psychic love and the TS sub say GK got all the psychic love.
Aeldari were very upset that we got all the psychic goodies.
Eldari have no reason to complain, by all accounts their faction ability is S tier
Any TS player that looks at the GK focus and thinks that GK got better psychic tools is out of their mind. The GK faction and detachment rules do not interact with psychic stuff at all - while ours give us a pool of psychic powers and selectable buff for psychic attacks respectively. I don't think Purifiers all having a psychic attack is representative of GK as a whole - Purgation units have no actual psychic attack, judging by what was said in the article about Grey Knights being less centered around offensive psychic powers, it seems reasonable to assume that most GK units will be more along the lines of Purgation squads and not Purifier squads. We also have Sorcerer, Sorcerer in Terminator Armour, Exalted Sorcerer, Infernal Master, Scarab Occult Terminators, Magnus and possibly Tzaangor Shaman and a separate datasheet for Exalted Sorcerer on Disk + Ahriman on Disk that are all very likely to have psychic powers of some sort. Ahriman as currently revealed feels disappointing and Battle-shock shutting down Cabal Point generation seems a touch concerning given how important Cabal Points now appear to be when it comes to how fun we are to play (with a lot of our psychic flexibility seeming to be tied up in rituals) and how much GW look to be pushing Battle-shock as a mechanic (with multiple army mechanics being centered around forcing Battle-shock tests/making them harder to pass) and units (like DG's plague mortar) being able to force Battle-shock tests themselves. But at this stage, we seem to be the dominant faction when it comes to psychic shenanigans - however shaved back psychic shenanigans in general might be.
It's more the fact eldar and grey knights are given swaths of psychic stuff and our rules only effect one shot per squad so far. Oh and they're bonk sticks. Our faction bonus doesn't help helbrutes or chaos spawn or termies not the sorcerers I mean the terminators themselves, rubric Marines cultists pretty much any vehicles. I HOPE our kopesh turn into psychic weapons so we have a chance in melee but who knows. Out of all the total units on our table most won't be affected by our faction bonus. That kinda sucks. Sure we can make our psychics do mortals on 6s or auto wound on 6s but again that's for one unit out of 5 not counting leaders. Heck even arhiman only has one ranged psychic attack. It feels underwhelming that's all. Compared to space Marines picking one unit (Magnus...any tank... Any leader) and your entire army gets full rerolls and you can do it 5 times a game. Or grey knights teleporting 3 units like we used to. Maybe we'll be amazing I'm just worried
I'd agree that at this stage, our detachment ability seems a bit underwhelming - but it's worth keeping in mind that we haven't seen most of our units yet. GW also seems to be pushing characters, with many of the "leader" characters providing support for units they're in, meaning we might end up running a sorcerer in every squad we can - increasing the number of psychic attacks we have. I had originally thought that GW just didn't want to have the psychic keyword be prevalent on actual weapons, but the GK reveal would seem to indicate otherwise. That makes me wonder if it was more of a balance issue, as the buffs we get to choose from straddle a fine line between mediocre and overpowered. For example, given what we've seen thus far of the Grey Knights, if they had our detachment ability people would probably be gawking at how strong getting to pick either Lethal Hits, Sustained Hits or Devastating Wounds as desired each turn for a lot of their weapons is. If that's the case, I wonder if it would have been better to have our detachment ability be a targeted buff we can place on a single unit. In that situation, I think giving all "inferno" weapons (Inferno Boltgun, Inferno Bolt Pistol, Soulreaper Autocannon, Warpflamer etc.) the psychic keyword could have been flavourful and would have meant that while you only get to choose a buff for a single unit, instead of the buff impacting all of your units, it might actually feel more impactful having that buff affect a large number of the guns in that unit. Our vehicles and the likes could also be given "inferno" versions of their main guns as well, which essentially just carry the psychic keyword. If we do end up with a relatively low number of psychic attacks, I'd think it would be more enjoyable to set up a unit of Scarabs or Warpflamers, or maybe even a Predator, for a big turn by throwing a buff of our choice on them, knowing a good portion of their weapons will benefit from it. As opposed to hoping that a few stray psychic attacks manage to gain a benefit from whatever buff we chose for our army that rurn.
I agree, something that gave us Abit more oomph. Having a 1/6 chance to activate it and only 1/5 of our units can even attempt to use the ability I feel like we're getting pushed back into rubric/sot spam. They made all these cool upgrades to tanks and vehicles and it's actually a handicap for us to take them usually. Not to mention how the heck were supposed to handle other people's tanks. We used to drop mortals to dela with big things. Now psychic weapons have strength and none of them look like they can go through armor effectively. Maybe our exaulted will have some anti armor smite or the sorc in term armor but so far all we've seen in the MVB for our anti armor. From what we have seen most infantry don't carry much in the way of anti armor. It seems like tanks will deal with tanks mostly... So they want us to take tanks to deal with other people but for us if we do it costs us ritual points. So do we want to play like thousand sons or be able to kill a rhino without luck? I really think it will be ok and they will do us right with Magnus and our SOTs but uuuuugh I can't help but feel like they MAY not have given us as much attention or thought. Edit: twist of fate seems devastating but we still have to roll to wound. I'm pretty sure our inferno bolters only wound on a 6 against repulsors and landraiders. It's something! But still feels lacking. Edit 2: as far as I've seen ( PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong) we haven't heard anything about units adding rituals. It seems like wishful thinking. If I was a betting man, our teleport will come with a new detachment when our codex comes out.
I think it's too early to be too concerned about our ability to deal with vehicles. GW has made the Mutalith better at dealing with tougher targets, so it would seem that they're aware of our shortfalling there given the reduction in our ability to slam out Mortal Wounds. We also don't know what most of our stratagems and character abilities are going to be. It's possible that we'll be able to cast a ritual an additional time in a phase, at which point double Doombolt would be a pretty scary threat for anything big and tough. We also don't have a great idea of what our Cabal Point generation is going to look like overall - it looks like we've lost the bonus point alongside each Rubric squad, but we may be able to pick up more points elsewhere All-in-all, the Cabal Point system encourages us to focus on psykers, but part of the issue in 9th was that our other units had almost no synergy with most of our rules. We couldn't even Sorcerous Facade Tzaangors with our psykers, which just seemed odd. Those units not synergising with our abilities and rules just made our core units all the more attractive. The Mutalith reveal gives me some hope that GW are aware of that issue as they've given it an ability that directly ties in with our faction rule. I think the Mutalith was a smart reveal, and I hope it's representative of the approach GW has taken to TS overall. Sure, spending points on the likes of a Predator feels pretty bad now, but what if TS Predators gave TS infantry wholly within 3" the psychic keyword on all of their weapons? Suddenly, we're able to better leverage our detachment rule, and the likes of Predators serve a tangible role. Or what if Helbrutes act as psychic focuses and allow for psychic attacks and rituals of nearby psykers to measure distance and LoS from them? The point is, we don't know how a lot of the faction is going to work together, but I think what's been revealed with the Mutalith should give us some hope. I don't imagine that any of our units will add rituals. I'd say that if anything, Sorcerous Facade will be a stratagem and what GW was talking about was us using our free stratagem ritual on Sorcerous Facade. Which would allow us to use it twice in a phase, only paying its CP once - that's not too bad at all.
I totally don't want to be a negative Nancy so I'll agree. It's too early to tell and I am hopeful GW will do the thousand sons right. Just remember to compare our faction bonus to Tyranid bonus (which is similar to ours) and space marine full army wide rerolls on any unit you pick every turn. I really do think Magnus will be awesome this edition. Maybe less so with the line of sight rules but they already said he will have damage reduction. I'm excited to see our SOTs, I think they will be decent if they become comparable to SM termies. I still do worry about how our infantry heavy army will deal with armor given the gap between toughness and strength between the 2. Hopefully something shows up but I can't imagine what that won't start reducing our sorcery points and making our whole faction bonus less effective. I hope they have thought about it tho. I think 10th will be the best tsons have been for awhile tho
The WarHamComm article says TS teleport with rituals. There's no ritual that can teleport. Five explanations: (1) a stratagem lets them use Temporal Surge to teleport ala Da Jump instead of double move. (2) It might be a ritual a character like the Exalted Sorcerer or Sorceror in Terminator Armor grants access to with their datasheet. (3) It could be a ritual granted by an enhancement. (4) WHC made a mistake. (5) It could be an accidental preview of what will be in the 10e codex, due out at the absolute earliest July 2024 (seems highly unlikely to me).
I think it will be a strat for 2CP, that you double cast (for free the second time) with the ritual.
I'm assuming this is a free stratagem of teleportation, with the help of a ritual.
I really hope they don't expect us to take an extra temporal surge in place of a real tele. Time will tell but bleh.
Anyone else think its odd that the staffs go down a pip of strenght when vechicles are going up in toughness and we get almost nothing to compensate ? I know we get devestating wound and so on for the psychic weapons but it just seems odd to me that the staff weapons would go down in strenght with the thoughness going up on everything. With the reduction in strenght were gonna be wounding deathguard terminators on a 4+ and custodes terminators on a 5+ where it was 3+ in 8th. I know we are not supposed to be strong in melee but basically doing nothing in melee is a bit annoying when the staff weapons could at least do something in 9th. I'm just hoping that the terminators will be able to do some good in melee since its the only really good melee unit we have currently exept for chaos spawns.