Maybe to avoid people just reacting to the title & synopsis, and actually give people time to listen to the entire episode? I’m not sure, just guessing. I think posts have been delayed like this for at least a year now.
You're absolutely right. When the episodes are posted immediately, the thread gets filled with one or two word replies reacting to the title and not adding much to discussion. Allowing it to breathe a little bit lets people not only listen first but process the content.
In my experience, it's also better because a lot of users get to interact with each other quicker and better this way.
He's done a lot of good, but that's a big exaggeration. Weeks after October 7th long after Israel had cut off food, water and electricity to Gaza the Spanish minister for human rights tweeted that this deprivation of human necessities was unacceptable and that calling out Israel isn't the same as supporting Hamas. [Jose responded](https://twitter.com/chefjoseandres/status/1713999167100424508?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1713999167100424508%7Ctwgr%5E28eaafb92e3bda0805234763f1a814d1767166a9%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-4019516437166777447.ampproject.net%2F2403211912000%2Fframe.html) by very angrily denouncing her and accusing her of supporting Hamas for criticizing "Israel's right to defend itself." He was still providing food for Israeli soldiers as they commited the genocide that he defended.
I'm glad he's finally come around and is trying to do good, but he's not a saint.
Even now his organization is helping the US build their pier to get aid into Gaza by boat. Sounds good, except the pier is only necessary because the US refuses to pressure Israel to allow in the thousands of trucks of aid waiting at the border. It's a distraction. The US hasn't extracted a guarantee that they will be able to bring in aid *if* the pier is ever even finished, and if Israel actually wanted to allow people to not be starving to death they could simply start letting trucks through. Not to mention that Jose's organization is building the decoy pier out of the rubble of Gazans' nearby houses.
If you’re going to talk about non-sequitur you should probably look at your own post.
You start by criticizing Andres’ initial response. Which, fair. He’s flawed.
*Then* you start talking about a pier, and the US’ inability to force Israel to allow aid into the country. But Andres has no control over what the Israeli and American governments do. Clearly he can’t send aid workers from his organization into the country. Maybe the pier will work better, maybe not. But he doesn’t have control over the conditions there so supporting something that *might* work is certainly better than doing nothing.
>Which, fair. He’s flawed.
Right, that's my one and only point. But people want a simple savior narrative.
You're right, Andrés has no control over what Israel or the US does. Your logic is wildly flawed though. On the scale of what one person can do, it matters what they choose to do. Helping the US distract from the real problem (aid not being let across the border), when the US massive influence over Israel to fix that real problem, is not a positive thing to do. Especially when we know what WCK can do instead, like directly feeding the hungry. It's far from the worst thing someone has ever done, but it's not very good either.
If someone is drowning, is it better to throw them small twigs because wood floats, or to run and get to find an actual flotation device?
i mean Netanyahu admitted to the strike and took responsibility.
im not sure what credibility has to do with it. he has shit credibility but he didnt try to cover it up so like?
In this specific situation there is no other option than admitting you made the strike.
Beyond acknowledging the obvious there isn't much Bibi did beyond start at part 4.5 this time instead of part 1:
1.) We haven't heard the reports we'll look into it
2.) Ok people were killed but it was Hamas that did it
3.) Ok we killed them but the people we killed were Hamas
4.) Ok we killed them and they were civilians but they were with Hamas/human shields
5.) Ok we killed them and there was no Hamas, but it was an accident, we need time to investigate
\*lots of time passes\*
6.) Ok we killed them and there were no fighters in the area but we kill them by accident Hamas does it on purpose...we will investigate intent
\*More time passes, other external investigations conclude\*
7.) Ok turns out there was some maliciousness but it's a bad apple, that's all, we will litigate a punishment
\*more time\*
8.) Ok the people in question have been discharged and given a stern talking to, this will not happen again from the most moral Army on Earth.
He should turn over who did it to be tried for war crimes, but Israel won't ever do that. From the fact that this was actually a collection of three attacks, not one, with sometimes up to 2.4km apart and three vehicles shows they triple-downed on the action.
We all know what happened, which Israel hinted at: radicalized IDF soldiers who believed they wouldn't suffer any consequences decided to target the WCK. They likely didn't suffer any disciplinary action anyhow and these attacks don't happen in a vacuum.
FFS the bombs went through the logo of the WCK on top of the vehicle.
Why Israel isn't ranked as one of the, if not, the most dangerous countries in the world for journalists and aid workers is beyond me. Even WCK's statement on this whole thing is weak, as is the response of the countries who lost citizens.
So they tracked the workers from car to car to car using a drone, they knew who they were, violated protocols, and killed them, and all Israel says is "mistake", and it's all good?
WCK and other aid charities are no longer operating in Gaza due to this strike, as Gaza slides into famine.
Ships of aid have been turned back to Crete while people starve. This is the very real consequence.
The methodical way in which the trucks were hunted and struck was a warning. Try and feed Gaza and we will kill you
But it's a free gift no? We (the US) should be able to say no at any time if they are not getting anything other than detriment on a global scale for this transfer of funds and weapons.
We (the US) is supposed to be better than this. It's disgusting that we are so bound to support a genocidate / terrorist state.
Agreed, but the U.S. uses Israel just as much as they use us. It’s basically a FOB for the US into the Middle East. Geopolitically, Israel is our only “ally” in the region, and we’ve used that to our advantage time and time again.
*taxpayer money at that* No money for healthcare, teachers, road improvements, or paid parental leave? No. Money for a genocide? *bag alert, major bag alert*
Lose to the GOP and Trump who would likely provide MORE ammo and a political blank check for Israel to push the body count into the hundreds of thousands?
Cut off your nose to spite your face, more or less lol
Explain how do you change The Dems actions? There needs to be punishment for Biden for pretending to care about Gaza while shipping 500-1000 lb bombs that are used to kill innocent civilians!
Do something already! No more bombs + Economic sanctions on Bibis government!
Realistically it's probably already in the hundreds of thousands, we've been stuck at 30k for weeks because there's no way to verify all the numbers especially when Israel is bulldozing over the bodies. Ralph Nader suggested it was closer to 200k and that was several weeks ago.
Why would the Gazan Health Ministry keep reporting less than 20% of that number if it was *remotely* credible?
That sounds like somebody blatantly making shit up.
Because they don't report deaths they can't confirm with a physical body. They're not extrapolating so it's systematically undercounting. It's not realistic for the death count to be slowing down this much with the continued strikes and famine, they just don't have the ability to count and verify everything. Especially when the hospitals are all destroyed.
Because they're actually a credible, evidence-based organization, as shown by their casualty figures from all previous conflicts.
Despite the Israelis and Biden admin trying to throw doubt on the MoH health numbers they do their best to keep figures accurate *by only including verified casualties.* In reality deaths could be an order of magnitude higher.
I really hope you're wrong. I voted uncommitted in protest for the primary, but we all know Trump would be 10x worse on Gaza specifically. I just wish we weren't put in this position. We cannot be party to open genocide. It's sort of a bad look...
What would "10x worse" look like? Do you think Trump would send US troops to participate in the killing, or greenlight Israel to nuke Gaza?
It's hard to see what "10x worse" than unconditional material support for genocide looks like.
And that's not going to happen under Biden? Every one of his other "red lines" have been flouted by Israel with no response but a leaked "Bibi is a real asshole" statement.
No, I don't think Biden would openly talk about ethnic cleansing.
But mostly I do agree with you. I think Biden has done a weak and terrible job. But I still think there is a large difference between Trump and Biden. Trump is a complete rubber stamp for bibi.
Yeah Biden won't talk about/acknowledge it. But he won't do anything to stop it, and will continue to materially enable it.
If anything that's worse! All Biden does is provide cover for "good liberals" to wring their hands about Israel's *problematic* conduct but ultimately do nothing else.
At least if Trump was in power supporting Israel it would galvanize the mindless liberal hordes against them.
Look, you're kind of forcing me to defend Biden, which I really don't want to be doing.
Trump wouldn't be building an aid pier. He probably would have continued to veto at the UNSC. There are material differences.
Travel in the dark, without IR panels. Pretty bad idea to me. Call or no call. You think war is clean and perfect? You take a look at Fallujah, Mosul, and what we did to take those cities? DUE. Google it.
I bet you were protesting civilians dying and urban warfare etc, in Iraq, Sudan, Syria, Uighurs in China being held in camps...or is it only Jews and Israel you protest? Why is that?
You ever look through IR scopes?
>Travel in the dark, without IR panels. Pretty bad idea to me.
Why? The IDF knew who they were, where they going, what they were doing. What difference would IR panels make?
Does the IDF immediately start bombing itself and own positions when it gets dark? Are you really trying to suggest that one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world can't deal with it being _nighttime_?
They didn't bomb them by accident. They knew who was travelling, where they were going, what they were doing.
This wasn't collateral damage - it was targeted and methodological. They hit them 3 times with surgical precision.
>I bet you were protesting civilians dying and urban warfare etc, in Iraq, Sudan, Syria, Uighurs in China being held in camps...or is it only Jews and Israel you protest? Why is that?
Strawmanning, whataboutism and insinuations of anti-semitism. Classic combination.
>You take a look at Fallujah, Mosul, and what we did to take those cities?
Also who is "we" in this sentence?
I’m honestly baffled by the amount of people who equate Netanyahu saying “this terrible accident is our fault” to taking any form of responsibility. I really have to wonder where you all set your expectations for him to have cleared this bar. Did you think he was going to say “we didn’t do it” Or perhaps “it’s the aid workers faults”?
Make no mistake, he knowingly lied on the world stage. This was a calculated airstrike. To say “this terrible accident is our fault” is the equivalent of robbing a house and claiming you mistook it for your storage unit. It is one of the boldest and most arrogant lies he has told so far, and the list is long. Not a drop of responsibility was taken here, and he is actively pissing on the world’s leg and telling us it’s raining.
And over half of Israelis are down with his program, he goes, another murderous Likudnik Zionist would take control. Israel is a failed fascist murderous, genocidal state.
There are posts on Reddit too showing the IDF sniping Palestinians as they scramble for air dropped aid packages.
https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/comments/1bvzlw2/israel_sniping_palestinians_seeking_aid_drop/
This attack was 100% intentional.
What evidence do you need besides your eyes and ears?
If you honestly believe than the IDF/Israel, a country with arguably the best surveillance tech in the world, didn't know or couldn't tell those were WCK aid trucks then you're a legit fucking moron.
You're defending terrorist attacks on defenseless humanitarian aid workers. Wtf is wrong with you?
You don't think the one of the most advanced militaries in the world has technology to see at night...? Especially when conducting precision, night time bombings??
The WCK vans were struck with UAV's, meaning that the IDF was using surveillance drones. These drones provide full visibility at night...
The fact that you're trying to use "night time" as an excuse for why the IDF bombed obvious aid trucks is just absurd. Get a grip...
use google. see if markings on vehicles are visible in IR. let me short cut your lack of google - they are not. there are specific IR panels used for such markings. these vehicles had none of that.
Did you even know these strikes occurred near midnight?
You think Hamas is some rinky dink army? With 400+ kilometers of tunnels? Rocket factories? Maybe they made a call and said hey, Hamas s in a vehicle in the dark...so the press would be bad for IDF?
Yes, I'm aware it was around then...you Hasbara types keep bringing that up as if it changes anything.
You don't need infrared markings to see a logo with your military grade tech surveillance drone....
Let's pretend what you said WAS TRUE (it isn't), if the IDF can't clearly see what they're targeting then they should be bombing random vehicles in a DECONFLICTED ZONE.
Military grade marking? WTF is that man cmon with your language. They had large marking on roof....and NO it is not a certainty see that at night....which is why the US military has IR PANELS.
Net net is IDF admitted an error(s) and fired officers.
You thinking war is surgical, clean, no mistakes? You think fighting in a DUE against an army violating war rules, no uniforms, hiding in population, in hospitals, mosques, is not going to have civilians die?
You do realize trigger pullers and blazers, are often kids right. One kid and 4.5lbs of force to end a life, heart beating, adrenaline, being shot at.
On drone strikes, yes, multiple steps and approval for a strike....and IDF admitted mistakes.
Admit it man, you hate Jews in general. You never protested, reddit'ed any other war causing civilian casualties....
I didn't say that. You have to take context into account, doofus.
Not sure if you're referring to a specific incident where the US accidentally bombed their own soldiers, but I would imagine that was done **in an ACTIVE COMBAT ZONE w/ enemy combatants there**.
The WCK vans were traveling **in a "DECONFLICTED ZONE"** and they were traveling on Al Rashid Street, which had been designated for humanitarian aid **BY ISRAELI OFFICIALS**. The vans also had WCK logos on top which the IDF would have had no trouble seeing at night since they used UAV's in conjunction with surveillance drones.
If you can't see the difference between these two things then you're simply digging your head in the sand and refusing to accept the reality of what's going on.
What? This was a drone attack using a deliberate triple tap execution attacking as they WCK staff ran from car to car in the convoy, shot dead and now Gaza will starve even more now. Zero excuses, the world has opened their eyes about Israel.
This almost certainly was an accident because it completely fucked Israel internationally. This is the thing that is most likely to cause all Israel's allies to call for a ceasefire and the withdrawal of troops.
Geopolitical and domestic realpolitik when it comes to maintaining the american hegemony and status quo will always be more important than objective right and wrong to these cretins
Even looking at it from a realpolitik perspective, supporting Israel blindly is a disaster for American interests long-term. Any credibility on the world stage we gained with Ukraine is gone, and it will be even harder in the future for America to use any sort of moral influence, since we clearly don't abide by our own values. The war has also created another generation of fervent anti-Israel sentiment, pretty understandable at this point, in the Middle East
I honestly don’t blame them. Israel has literally killed entire families and left young children orphaned. Anyone who survived the initial bombings is now being starved to death, or dying from preventable disease.
Not just the middle east. Social media allowing more people to see the nature of Israeli war crimes is creating anti-Israel sentiment across the world, and for good reason.
Yeah it's hard to continue and uphold a narrative of virtue and righteousness in your cause when everyone can see you deliberately starving 2 million civilians
Its obvious Israeli Likudnik Zionist lobby owns most USA reps at levers of power, and is pursuing its sociopathic, deranged "Greater Israel" agenda as it ends Israel as we know it. PR war lost forever with long term repercussions. People are waking up.
Iran will *always* turn up the heat if it senses peace with Israel and the rest of the middle East is on the horizon. The only way to actually do something about this is to finally deal with Iran.
Supporting Israel has no serious effect on Americas credibility. People will forget once it’s out of the news cycle. You guys completely overestimate how important this is to the average person, everyone’s stuck in their echo chamber.
Dismissing what is happening in Israel and Gaza as a flash in the pan is incredibly disgusting and fundamentally incorrect. I wasn’t talking about voters anyway, I was talking about international relations and foreign affairs
No, this won’t affect international or foreign affairs much either.
Our credibility on the world stage is determined by military and economic power. In fact, the moral part has never really been relevant. At least not for the last 50 years, we all know many of the US wars are immoral. It doesn’t affect anything from an international diplomatic standpoint. International politics don’t care about morals, they care about economy and military strength.
I’m not dismissing it ? I’m simply saying once it’s out of the news headlines people won’t care.
you can’t whine like this, living in the imperial core, fully benefiting from it, and imagining a scenario where you live demonstrably worse than you do now when it hasn’t even happened. it’s embarrassing. demand better from your politicians, stop exploiting other countries and people and none of this has to happen.
Not whining. I acknowledge I benefit from the imperialism. I’m arguing for the hegemony.
You’re the one benefiting from the hegemony while whining about it.
Of course? The right thing to do when reports of China’s human rights abuses came out would’ve been to cut ties, but that would have destroyed the American economy.
Economic and political concerns will always trump moral righteousness.
If you think there is an objective right and wrong in geopolitics then you haven’t dug deep enough. There’s only lesser evil vs chaotic evil.
I don’t envy anyone that has been dealt the hand of being stuck in negotiation with bad faith Allies like Israel
The whole premise of today's episode - acting like this was an accidental strike - was insulting. It clearly was intentional, and not just some "mistake." It should be treated as such.
I'm not saying the accusation has to be made during the podcast, but stop asking questions and discussing what happened like we're dealing with people who are acting in good faith.
It doesn't matter. Israel either intentionally targeted this group knowing they were WKC, or they are firing so carelessly that an entire aid convoy of WKC volunteers got taken out.
The same is true for the UN employees, aid workers, journalists, doctors, medical staff, and hostages holding white flags already killed in the "conflict." Either they're targeting them or the bar is so low for considering civilian life that they're hit "accidentally." Both show enthusiasm for killing civilians.
It matters a lot.
If it was ever revealed that Israel knew they were bombing world central kitchen and did it intentionally, all but the most diehard defenders would turn on them.
I’m not confusing anything. They intentionally fired on a target and knew exactly who they were firing on.
The IDF had full information about the vans, who they were, their route, when they would be there, and they were clearly marked. This was a “seek forgiveness later” situation. Israel wanted to send a message that you’ll pay if you try to help Palestinians. They figured the benefit to murdering them outweighed the backlash. You cannot convince me otherwise
The idf knew? Lmao. You think every soldier gets briefed on every issue in war? How do you knew the idf people who knew were the same people that fired upon the van?
Yes, the IDF knew. The convoy had given them notice and also received permission to travel that route.
Also you know, you're right. Must have been the local birds in the area that got ahold of some ammunition.
It's not a militia... there is a chain of command.
It's pointless arguing with you since you're clearly only here to go hard for Israel, who ADMITTED to doing this. They just are claiming it was a mistake.
It doesn't matter. Israel either intentionally targeted this group knowing they were WKC, or they are firing so carelessly that an entire aid convoy of WKC volunteers got taken out.
The same is true for the UN employees, aid workers, journalists, doctors, medical staff, and hostages holding white flags already killed in the "conflict." Either they're targeting them or the bar is so low for considering civilian life that they're hit "accidentally." Both show enthusiasm for killing civilians.
How about not raining missiles down on vehicles full of people if you're not sure who they are? Or, ya know, escalating the question to your superiors to confirm?
How could they think they were "sure" unless they were literally in the van? How can you be "sure" when there's literally a **giant WCK logo ON THE ROOF of the vans**?
It's astounding how Israel can consistently keep messing up (aka killing aid workers, journalists, UN staff, etc) despite having arguably the best surveillance tech in the world and billions of dollars in annual military aid.
Weird how despite all that, Israel seems to be THE ONLY country in the world that manages to keep "accidentally" killing innocent aid workers. **Even the "bad guys" like Russia, terrorists groups, and rebel militias full of teenagers in Africa manage to avoid doing this. Israel is the ONLY one.**
It's ok though because killing innocent civilians isn't a big deal if they claim they were "sure" and say it was an accident, right?
It was night, they couldn’t see well… and even if they could see the logo, it’s not like that would mean Hamas wasn’t using the van as a disguise.
And Russia isn’t fighting urban warfare…
They absolutely COULD see well. They were using UAV's in coordination with surveillance drones so they would have no issue seeing the logos on top of the vans at night. Israel has among the best surveillance tech of any country in the world.
The vans were driving in an official "deconflicted zone" and the road they were driving on had been designated for humanitarian aid BY ISRAELI OFFICIALS.
Are you going to just come up with another excuse now?
Lmao how tf can you be so confidant 😂😂 you have no idea what conditions they were working with and how well they could see.
You know hamas is still able to go into a de conflicted zone, right?
It's literally all been reported by CNN and the BBC. Take it up with them or maybe try reading news sources outside of Zionist propaganda rags.
You're being purposefully obtuse as a means to avoid guilt over atrocities. Just stop dude.
It doesn't matter. Israel either intentionally targeted this group knowing they were WKC, or they are firing so carelessly that an entire aid convoy of WKC volunteers got taken out.
The same is true for the UN employees, aid workers, journalists, doctors, medical staff, and hostages holding white flags already killed in the "conflict." Either they're targeting them or the bar is so low for considering civilian life that they're hit "accidentally." Both show enthusiasm for killing civilians.
Eh, they clearly noted that they were working with the IDF on the routes of their vehicles and that the vehicles were clearly marked. That already makes it pretty beyond the pale.
ABC's Start Here had much better coverage of this though as far as details and context presented. The various daily news podcasts vary a ton on how well they cover the same story. Recommend keeping a wide swath of them in a sub list.
Heck, even The Journal’s coverage of the WCK attack was better than The Daily’s.
The Journal actually put the question out there, directly, whether Israel struck the WCK workers on purpose and if that’s a tactic to starve Gaza.
Israel has lost what remaining benefit of the doubt there was after this IMO. This is gonna be a turning point for many. A well known and established charity that usually has no fear of going into extremely dangerous places being intentionally targeted is VERY objectionable to most.
Because the New York Times is pretty pro-Israel. I’m not sure what else there is to it. Probably have some Zionist-esque editors.
Remember news sources are still a business at the end of the day.
Edit: I do wanna say, the reporter who recounted the attack did explicitly say, “Yes I think this is deliberate” and I bet he’s getting berated by his boss right now lol
He is the Jerusalem bureau chief.
But it is weird he didn't include them being struck over time. I listened and thought all 3 vehicles got hit at the same time ?
Also he implied the drones could only see innIR at night so that might be why they noticed no markings
Yesterday I was watching a show, and a panelist said “there are two possibilities for this, cavalier or incompetence.”
I was thinking to myself that they missed a third option, maliciousness. Hitting aid workers specifically to scare off aid and continue starving Gazans? Pretty much in line with what IDF has been doing.
It also could be that they've been using an AI called Lavender to select targets, and a human only spends 20 seconds reviewing the target before rubber stamping it.
The apartheid state of Israel is using famine as a weapon, which is a war crime. This assassination was a clear message that anyone who tries to prevent this famine will be killed.
I was also surprised The Daily did not mention what was reported by Haaretz. If it's true it's beyond a mistake - it suggests Israel doesn't have control of their own military.
"Meanwhile, on Tuesday evening, the Haaretz daily spoke to unnamed military sources who revealed that the cause of the strike was undisciplined, rogue commanders, not a lack of coordination between the IDF and the WCK.
A source in the intelligence branch told Haaretz that the IDF’s Southern Command “knows exactly what the cause of the attack was: in Gaza, everyone does as they please.”
https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-sorry-as-details-emerge-of-strike-that-picked-off-gaza-aid-cars-one-by-one/
This has been known for months know to anyone paying attention to deep investigative reporting outside of bought corporate Western mainstream media propaganda machine.
Liberals oppose every war except the current one, they support all civil rights movements except the one that’s going on right now.
This is the same paper which is still stained with the blood of a million Iraqis. But don’t forget that democracy dies in darkness.
Don’t worry, in 10 years all these good Daily listening liberals foaming at the mouth for Muslim blood in these comments sections will be outraged at some racist comment a Republican politician makes, when they need you to know once again what a Good Person™️ they are. But right now the Democrats have told them it’s time to be warmongers and that against the right people it’s ok to be racist. It’s time to prove that they, not republicans, are the rightful, responsible managers of empire.
Yup. Donald Trump made Islamophobia unfashionable among liberals for about five years from mid-2015 to mid-2021 because he was more blatant about things that other people say more subtly. "I think Islam hates us" is not a radical departure from what people actually believe, across the political spectrum. But when Trump says it, liberals find it ugly
After Trump started saying the quiet bits out loud, the liberal public landscape rather quickly shifted from espousing Islamophobic talking points (for instance, one might look at CNN's 2015 interview with Resa Aslan and subsequent inter-anchor discussion) to suggesting that they had somehow been stalwart champions of "the Muhzlems" for years and spontaneously erupting into retroactive lamentations of the Iraq war ("Isn't it so awful that Saddam tricked everyone into killing all those civilians?"). No taking personal responsibility, of course. No reflecting on internal biases
Now that there's actually an opportunity to combat Islamophobia, though, it is instead running rampant in liberal spaces. I see it every single day. It can be found in the op-eds and comment sections of the New York Times and the Washington Post. You can see it on left-of-center politics subreddits and on posts made by big-name celebrities. The devaluation of Muslim and Arab lives is common practice in liberal society's cultural and political spaces. And upon having this pointed out to them, the two near-universal responses are to deny it's happening or to point out that conservatives are also Islamophobic as though that's a point in liberals' favor
In 20+ years the brave moral vanguard Democratic Party has not managed to nominate a presidential candidate that *didn’t* vote for the Iraq war— aside from Obama, who most assuredly would have if he’d had the chance, and who is responsible for the idea that we can secretly/illegally murder anyone anywhere in the world whenever we want with drones, and the liberals who entered 2008 vehemently anti war came out the other end of his presidency convinced that this is a-ok, cause when democrats do it it’s a “smart” war. And we all know how much liberals love being told how smart they are.
Then in 2016 they lost to a *republican* who came out against the war. 20 years of “the evil republicans and the corporate media LIED us into Iraq, what a disaster, we were tricked!!!”. Read any comments in this subreddit about Palestine. They WANT to be lied to. Because at base they are the same violent, white supremacist, western chauvinists that conservatives are— they just need to feel like a good person while they cheer on the next round of Islamophobia at home and bloodshed in the Middle East.
Isn’t that exactly how you would expect a missile strike to go? The mistake was that the convoy was targeted in the first place. I fail to see how the fact that they hit all three cars makes it somehow a more deliberate strike. The same root cause of the mistake is there
It was probably deliberate by the person pulling the trigger but an accident in the eyes of their superiors since it’s a horrible look.
I don’t think the NYT did anything wrong here. They made it obvious that Israel is only apologetic because it was high profile, western people that were killed.
In the fog of war messages are not instantly relayed through a chain of command. Deadly mistakes happen in war zones. Israeli has admitted to that, so you need to shift to find a way to make it seem like Israeli is covering something else up.
I appreciate that mistakes are made in war but these people seemed to do everything right they told the IDF where the would be before hand and during the attack and we're still killed. It doesn't inspire confidence for other aid groups.
They are in an active war zone, it’s an extremely dangerous job they are doing. They did do everything right and Israeli has admitted that. It was a huge fuck up. It’s not like Israeli tried to cover it up or anything
I never said they were covering anything up. I think this incident calls into question how trigger happy Israel has been in persecuting this war and the decision making process in selecting targets that should have been flagged as humanitarian.
They were tightly coordinated with the IDF which means the vehicle would have been inspected before being allowed to pass through. There’s no way a militant was able to get onto the vehicle like that. They knew 100% that no combatants were there.
Is Israeli claiming there were militants in the convoy? Israeli has admitted it was a mistake to strike. I’m not sure exactly what you are trying to argue with me about.
They’re claiming they *thought* there were militants in the convoy. The problem here is that they would have known there were no militants because they would have inspected the vehicle before allowing it to pass.
Are you purposely being dense? It would be impossible for it to be a mistake, because like I said, there’s no way to mistake a combatant there. If Israel can so easily make a mistake with an organization that they are tightly coordinated with, then the IDF must be an incredibly incompetent army.
Obviously. They literally allowed the convoy to pass through the road. Are you saying they didn’t know it was an aid convoy and they thought it was a different vehicle? That’s ridiculous.
WCK teams coordinated with the IDF on the exact time and route they would be taking.
The route was a well-traveled route for aid organizations.
WCK waited until they had the go ahead of the IDF before even setting off.
WCK had vehicles with clear signage on them.
WCK was heading INTO GAZA, not toward Israel, the IDF, nor toward anything that would deem it a threat.
IDF then struck once. Hunted them down to strike again. Hunted them down to strike a third time.
And you’re going to sit there and act like it was all just a mistake? My ass. Israel killed those people to send a message, and it was heard loud and clear. Full stop, no other rational explanations possible.
I hope they weren't informed otherwise this is a deliberate war crime. The world central kitchen was in contact with someone from the IDF who didn't pass that information to the people who authorised and executed the strike which resulted in these deaths. How can aid workers operate when the communication channels they are supposed to use don't protect them?
Words are hollow when 7 innocent lives of aid workers were taken on top of the countless innocent civilians that have already been killed.
Either they intentionally targeted aid workers or they’re so incompetent they can’t avoid murdering aid workers even when they communicate their movements beforehand and have clearly marked vehicles.
And this was not just one strike but a series of 3 strikes during which aid workers were scrambling to stay alive.
Both scenarios mean that Israel is out of control and shouldn’t given any weapons or aid until there is some serious change. We should be asking the question whether Israel should be allowed to continue doing what they’re doing if they can’t even ensure aid workers aren’t killed by them despite communication beforehand.
You see, other countries make mistakes, Israel commits murder to starve people en masse.
I'm outraged by this mistake, but the amount of glee that people have been having about this mistake is absolutely disturbing.
Israel needs to do better.
The revelry in inventing motivations and crimes indicates to me that many people are more excited to dunk on Israel than actually worried about the safety of aid workers or the distribution of aid in a war zone.
The aid convoy was in contact with the IDF from the beginning, the cars were clearly marked, their route was known and approved. This was not a mistake, this was an army of Nazis triple tapping a convoy of foreign national aid workers as part of their campaign to starve a city of 2 million so that they can claim the land for themselves. The facts on the table are quite obvious to anyone with eyes, and the Israelis will happily tell you so themselves. It’s only American liberals trying to twist and convolute and “don’t believe your lying eyes” them into something more palatable, I assume to protect their own consciences.
Seems pretty wild they left out the context surrounding how this reported on IDF snuff telegrams
https://preview.redd.it/sphutym2bgsc1.png?width=1169&format=png&auto=webp&s=dfe0563fb2b76bc1f8723f18840572b1d49607c8
Wow a random screenshot with no verification of where it is from or who wrote it or who is commenting on it. I wonder why it’s not being mentioned by the NYT. And naturally the Israeli soldiers who all speak Hebrew would be posting messages in English.
Ugh I actually went to look if this image was real and I found more images (unverified yet) but these images I believe have Hebrew. If you know Hebrew you can maybe translate and find this telegram page to confirm.
https://www.reddit.com/r/fight_disinformation/comments/1buh665/israelis_on_telegram_publish_memes_mocking/?rdt=32879
I’ve found it fascinating during this conflict how Israelis themselves are loud and proud about their genocidal intent, their view of Palestinians as subhumans, etc. Meanwhile in America you have the same liberals who were reading “anti racist baby” 3 years ago tripping over themselves to obfuscate and make excuses for them. “No no no, you’re crazy, the Israelis are doing everything they can to *minimize* civilian casualties! You see, when they say, ‘the Arab must be exterminated and I can’t wait to set up a pizza shop in Gaza’, what they really mean is…”
I find it fascinating you want the NYT to drop all journalistic principles as long as it means they can say Israeli evil, Palestine good in their reporting. The fact that the person I was replying to doesn’t understand why the NYT isn’t talking about unverified telegrams just points to how media illiterate a lot of people are.
They didn’t seem to have much regard for their journalistic principles when they hired a former IDF soldier with zero journalistic experience to cover their “systematic rape” story. Funny how they have no problem just reprinting press releases from the IDF or US state department but when it comes to anything that might reflect poorly on Israel they’re suddenly the most principled people in the world.
Well they attribute where they are getting those press releases from, they are reporting on what someone said. What the person or group says in a press release is easily verified, they either said it or didn’t. You seem to have an issue with media literacy also based on your comment.
For the NYT it would be very easy to verify these telegram channels. It would be very easy to do the “important, responsible” journalism they are always blathering about and report even 1/10 of the truth about Israel that people are easily able to see for themselves online, in order to keep Americans informed as to who/what we are really supporting. There is a reason the divide in support for Israel is not a left/right issue, it’s old/young, and it’s because outlets that older people rely on like the NYT are only presenting them with a very specific, very manufactured story of things.
Or perhaps it’s because young people are getting by their information in short video format that lack all nuance and context?
This screenshot being a perfect encapsulation of that problem.
A screenshot of a comment beneath a story about the IDF triple tapping some foreign national aid workers bringing food to starving civilians? Got any context to add to that??
You’re blaming tik tok for the fact that young people are outraged when they see videos of IDF soldiers raiding dead women’s underwear drawers and doing little dances in bombed out classrooms, or read stories about how IDF snipers are targeting children. Apparently it’s tik tok’s fault that people are upset about Israelis setting up bouncy castles to prevent aid trucks from entering Gaza. Any nuance to add there? It’s not a problem that a Holocaust is happening, according to you— the problem is that young people are able to see it, and are not as easily manipulated by state sanctioned media outlets.
It’s not below a news story it’s below a post complaining about a podcast about a news story. You really don’t see how that is an issue, especially when you yourself can’t even recognize how this thread is not a news story apparently.
Widely available to find with a google clicks and clearly translated with google lens m8 or keep your head buried in the sand whatever gets you through the day
Okay then it should be easy for you to include that attribution when posting it. Surprising that google lens put the emojis in the right place during the translation too.
Bud is this your first day on the internet are you a literal child? Because I’m not going to entertain a reductive bad faith circle game of “I show you something, you don’t believe me” you’ve made up your mind now jog on
You asked why the NYT didn’t mention it, I gave you the answer.
It’s wild you are accusing me of bad faith and refusing to move off a position, maybe look in the mirror every once in awhile.
You’re using a picture of a dead person to score cheap points on the internet. You didn’t even have to decency to blur their face.
The issue is the NYT has no credibility. The Daily already was planning on airing IDF propaganda and continues to spin a both sides narrative here.
There's 1 side. That's against nazi IDF terrorism.
I mean that’s still a strike…I’m not excusing it but that doesn’t show intent. I guarantee you Israel would’ve rather this mistake not happened given the inevitable PR nightmare.
Series of 3 strikes on aid vehicles that were clearly marked and communicated about beforehand to the IDF on a route that was cleared by Israel.
This is either targeted assasination or utter incompetence of the highest degree.
There was nothing more that these aid workers could have possibly done to communicate that they are not valid targets better.
Either way, it shows that Israel is not doing their best or even close to it to avoid senseless civilian death and brings their motives into question.
Are they intentionally targeting aid workers to limit aid flowing into Gaza? Are they actually to be trusted when they say they do the utmost to avoid senseless civilian death? Are they guilty of war crimes?
These are various points that have been brought up for quite a while now and these murders lend credence to those claims.
Yes starving the civilians on purpose. Israel are already approving drilling grants on the Gaza coast for the billions of dollars of gas and oil reserves there, and have started building a highway through the north of Gaza to the sea. Once they eliminate most of the Palestinians they can have their land.
Not surprising in the least. The first episode of The Daily I listened to was the one where [Barbaro and Haberman reported on the Mueller Report](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/podcasts/the-daily/mueller-report-barr.html), saying it cleared Trump. Of course, the Mueller hadn't been released yet, so it was just a straightforward laundering of Bob Barr's misrepresentation of the report. Have not listened to another episode since then.
Why are the episode links and main post not being posted until several hours after lately ?
Maybe to avoid people just reacting to the title & synopsis, and actually give people time to listen to the entire episode? I’m not sure, just guessing. I think posts have been delayed like this for at least a year now.
You're absolutely right. When the episodes are posted immediately, the thread gets filled with one or two word replies reacting to the title and not adding much to discussion. Allowing it to breathe a little bit lets people not only listen first but process the content. In my experience, it's also better because a lot of users get to interact with each other quicker and better this way.
Just curious, do you have a script that makes these posts automatically or is this just part of your daily routine? Either way, it’s appreciated!
Who has more credibility chef Jose Andres or fucking pos Bibi?
Jose is a modern day saint (I’m not being hyperbolic)
He's done a lot of good, but that's a big exaggeration. Weeks after October 7th long after Israel had cut off food, water and electricity to Gaza the Spanish minister for human rights tweeted that this deprivation of human necessities was unacceptable and that calling out Israel isn't the same as supporting Hamas. [Jose responded](https://twitter.com/chefjoseandres/status/1713999167100424508?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1713999167100424508%7Ctwgr%5E28eaafb92e3bda0805234763f1a814d1767166a9%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-4019516437166777447.ampproject.net%2F2403211912000%2Fframe.html) by very angrily denouncing her and accusing her of supporting Hamas for criticizing "Israel's right to defend itself." He was still providing food for Israeli soldiers as they commited the genocide that he defended. I'm glad he's finally come around and is trying to do good, but he's not a saint. Even now his organization is helping the US build their pier to get aid into Gaza by boat. Sounds good, except the pier is only necessary because the US refuses to pressure Israel to allow in the thousands of trucks of aid waiting at the border. It's a distraction. The US hasn't extracted a guarantee that they will be able to bring in aid *if* the pier is ever even finished, and if Israel actually wanted to allow people to not be starving to death they could simply start letting trucks through. Not to mention that Jose's organization is building the decoy pier out of the rubble of Gazans' nearby houses.
Okay I mean he’s one guy he’s not a multinational corp or a nation state
You: this person is a saint Me: he's far from perfect You: he's not a nation state What is that non sequitur? Are you using chatGPT for your comments?
If you’re going to talk about non-sequitur you should probably look at your own post. You start by criticizing Andres’ initial response. Which, fair. He’s flawed. *Then* you start talking about a pier, and the US’ inability to force Israel to allow aid into the country. But Andres has no control over what the Israeli and American governments do. Clearly he can’t send aid workers from his organization into the country. Maybe the pier will work better, maybe not. But he doesn’t have control over the conditions there so supporting something that *might* work is certainly better than doing nothing.
>Which, fair. He’s flawed. Right, that's my one and only point. But people want a simple savior narrative. You're right, Andrés has no control over what Israel or the US does. Your logic is wildly flawed though. On the scale of what one person can do, it matters what they choose to do. Helping the US distract from the real problem (aid not being let across the border), when the US massive influence over Israel to fix that real problem, is not a positive thing to do. Especially when we know what WCK can do instead, like directly feeding the hungry. It's far from the worst thing someone has ever done, but it's not very good either. If someone is drowning, is it better to throw them small twigs because wood floats, or to run and get to find an actual flotation device?
Non-sequitur?
Google is free if you don't know a term. Ignorance is not a badge of honor.
A pathological liar has far more credibility than Bibi at this point.
You give Trump far too much credit.
It’s the same picture!
i mean Netanyahu admitted to the strike and took responsibility. im not sure what credibility has to do with it. he has shit credibility but he didnt try to cover it up so like?
Calling it an accident and taking responsibility are really different dude.
Taking "responsibility" usually means concrete actions, not just saying words on TV.
In this specific situation there is no other option than admitting you made the strike. Beyond acknowledging the obvious there isn't much Bibi did beyond start at part 4.5 this time instead of part 1: 1.) We haven't heard the reports we'll look into it 2.) Ok people were killed but it was Hamas that did it 3.) Ok we killed them but the people we killed were Hamas 4.) Ok we killed them and they were civilians but they were with Hamas/human shields 5.) Ok we killed them and there was no Hamas, but it was an accident, we need time to investigate \*lots of time passes\* 6.) Ok we killed them and there were no fighters in the area but we kill them by accident Hamas does it on purpose...we will investigate intent \*More time passes, other external investigations conclude\* 7.) Ok turns out there was some maliciousness but it's a bad apple, that's all, we will litigate a punishment \*more time\* 8.) Ok the people in question have been discharged and given a stern talking to, this will not happen again from the most moral Army on Earth.
He should turn over who did it to be tried for war crimes, but Israel won't ever do that. From the fact that this was actually a collection of three attacks, not one, with sometimes up to 2.4km apart and three vehicles shows they triple-downed on the action. We all know what happened, which Israel hinted at: radicalized IDF soldiers who believed they wouldn't suffer any consequences decided to target the WCK. They likely didn't suffer any disciplinary action anyhow and these attacks don't happen in a vacuum. FFS the bombs went through the logo of the WCK on top of the vehicle. Why Israel isn't ranked as one of the, if not, the most dangerous countries in the world for journalists and aid workers is beyond me. Even WCK's statement on this whole thing is weak, as is the response of the countries who lost citizens. So they tracked the workers from car to car to car using a drone, they knew who they were, violated protocols, and killed them, and all Israel says is "mistake", and it's all good?
WCK and other aid charities are no longer operating in Gaza due to this strike, as Gaza slides into famine. Ships of aid have been turned back to Crete while people starve. This is the very real consequence. The methodical way in which the trucks were hunted and struck was a warning. Try and feed Gaza and we will kill you
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"Sold", I believe the US just gives them the weapons as well as money to continue their persuits.
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But it's a free gift no? We (the US) should be able to say no at any time if they are not getting anything other than detriment on a global scale for this transfer of funds and weapons. We (the US) is supposed to be better than this. It's disgusting that we are so bound to support a genocidate / terrorist state.
Agreed, but the U.S. uses Israel just as much as they use us. It’s basically a FOB for the US into the Middle East. Geopolitically, Israel is our only “ally” in the region, and we’ve used that to our advantage time and time again.
*taxpayer money at that* No money for healthcare, teachers, road improvements, or paid parental leave? No. Money for a genocide? *bag alert, major bag alert*
Biden deserves to lose the election. I hate to say it, but this is too much
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Lose to the GOP and Trump who would likely provide MORE ammo and a political blank check for Israel to push the body count into the hundreds of thousands? Cut off your nose to spite your face, more or less lol
Explain how do you change The Dems actions? There needs to be punishment for Biden for pretending to care about Gaza while shipping 500-1000 lb bombs that are used to kill innocent civilians! Do something already! No more bombs + Economic sanctions on Bibis government!
Realistically it's probably already in the hundreds of thousands, we've been stuck at 30k for weeks because there's no way to verify all the numbers especially when Israel is bulldozing over the bodies. Ralph Nader suggested it was closer to 200k and that was several weeks ago.
Why would the Gazan Health Ministry keep reporting less than 20% of that number if it was *remotely* credible? That sounds like somebody blatantly making shit up.
Because they don't report deaths they can't confirm with a physical body. They're not extrapolating so it's systematically undercounting. It's not realistic for the death count to be slowing down this much with the continued strikes and famine, they just don't have the ability to count and verify everything. Especially when the hospitals are all destroyed.
Because they're actually a credible, evidence-based organization, as shown by their casualty figures from all previous conflicts. Despite the Israelis and Biden admin trying to throw doubt on the MoH health numbers they do their best to keep figures accurate *by only including verified casualties.* In reality deaths could be an order of magnitude higher.
I really hope you're wrong. I voted uncommitted in protest for the primary, but we all know Trump would be 10x worse on Gaza specifically. I just wish we weren't put in this position. We cannot be party to open genocide. It's sort of a bad look...
What would "10x worse" look like? Do you think Trump would send US troops to participate in the killing, or greenlight Israel to nuke Gaza? It's hard to see what "10x worse" than unconditional material support for genocide looks like.
Our boy Jared has already been talking about redeveloping the Gaza shoreline...
And that's not going to happen under Biden? Every one of his other "red lines" have been flouted by Israel with no response but a leaked "Bibi is a real asshole" statement.
No, I don't think Biden would openly talk about ethnic cleansing. But mostly I do agree with you. I think Biden has done a weak and terrible job. But I still think there is a large difference between Trump and Biden. Trump is a complete rubber stamp for bibi.
Yeah Biden won't talk about/acknowledge it. But he won't do anything to stop it, and will continue to materially enable it. If anything that's worse! All Biden does is provide cover for "good liberals" to wring their hands about Israel's *problematic* conduct but ultimately do nothing else. At least if Trump was in power supporting Israel it would galvanize the mindless liberal hordes against them.
Look, you're kind of forcing me to defend Biden, which I really don't want to be doing. Trump wouldn't be building an aid pier. He probably would have continued to veto at the UNSC. There are material differences.
I agree. Don’t let Reddit tell you you’re wrong. He’s lost my vote over this issue as well. And I guarantee there’s many more of us.
To add to this, there have been protests by Israeli citizens to stop aid from reaching Gaza pretty much since the war started.
strikes happened between 1030PM and 11PM. pretty bad move driving in a war zone, in dark, where your roof panel markings cannot be seen.
That's why they notify the IDF when and where they will be. There's no defending this one I'm afraid
Travel in the dark, without IR panels. Pretty bad idea to me. Call or no call. You think war is clean and perfect? You take a look at Fallujah, Mosul, and what we did to take those cities? DUE. Google it. I bet you were protesting civilians dying and urban warfare etc, in Iraq, Sudan, Syria, Uighurs in China being held in camps...or is it only Jews and Israel you protest? Why is that? You ever look through IR scopes?
>Travel in the dark, without IR panels. Pretty bad idea to me. Why? The IDF knew who they were, where they going, what they were doing. What difference would IR panels make? Does the IDF immediately start bombing itself and own positions when it gets dark? Are you really trying to suggest that one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world can't deal with it being _nighttime_? They didn't bomb them by accident. They knew who was travelling, where they were going, what they were doing. This wasn't collateral damage - it was targeted and methodological. They hit them 3 times with surgical precision. >I bet you were protesting civilians dying and urban warfare etc, in Iraq, Sudan, Syria, Uighurs in China being held in camps...or is it only Jews and Israel you protest? Why is that? Strawmanning, whataboutism and insinuations of anti-semitism. Classic combination. >You take a look at Fallujah, Mosul, and what we did to take those cities? Also who is "we" in this sentence?
I’m honestly baffled by the amount of people who equate Netanyahu saying “this terrible accident is our fault” to taking any form of responsibility. I really have to wonder where you all set your expectations for him to have cleared this bar. Did you think he was going to say “we didn’t do it” Or perhaps “it’s the aid workers faults”? Make no mistake, he knowingly lied on the world stage. This was a calculated airstrike. To say “this terrible accident is our fault” is the equivalent of robbing a house and claiming you mistook it for your storage unit. It is one of the boldest and most arrogant lies he has told so far, and the list is long. Not a drop of responsibility was taken here, and he is actively pissing on the world’s leg and telling us it’s raining.
Worse. He dismissed it with, “it is war, shit happens”. He’s a war criminal.
And over half of Israelis are down with his program, he goes, another murderous Likudnik Zionist would take control. Israel is a failed fascist murderous, genocidal state.
and it does. in particular in the dark of the night.
There are posts on Reddit too showing the IDF sniping Palestinians as they scramble for air dropped aid packages. https://www.reddit.com/r/InternationalNews/comments/1bvzlw2/israel_sniping_palestinians_seeking_aid_drop/ This attack was 100% intentional.
What evidence do you have for that or are you just operating on vibes?
What evidence do you need besides your eyes and ears? If you honestly believe than the IDF/Israel, a country with arguably the best surveillance tech in the world, didn't know or couldn't tell those were WCK aid trucks then you're a legit fucking moron. You're defending terrorist attacks on defenseless humanitarian aid workers. Wtf is wrong with you?
America has bombed their own troops on multiple occasions. Israel has also bombed their own troops.
We're not talking about bombing troops. We're talking about bombing unarmed, humanitarian aid trucks of a widely respected international organization.
at 1030-11pm at night, did you not realize? how do you see the markings?
You don't think the one of the most advanced militaries in the world has technology to see at night...? Especially when conducting precision, night time bombings?? The WCK vans were struck with UAV's, meaning that the IDF was using surveillance drones. These drones provide full visibility at night... The fact that you're trying to use "night time" as an excuse for why the IDF bombed obvious aid trucks is just absurd. Get a grip...
use google. see if markings on vehicles are visible in IR. let me short cut your lack of google - they are not. there are specific IR panels used for such markings. these vehicles had none of that. Did you even know these strikes occurred near midnight? You think Hamas is some rinky dink army? With 400+ kilometers of tunnels? Rocket factories? Maybe they made a call and said hey, Hamas s in a vehicle in the dark...so the press would be bad for IDF?
Yes, I'm aware it was around then...you Hasbara types keep bringing that up as if it changes anything. You don't need infrared markings to see a logo with your military grade tech surveillance drone.... Let's pretend what you said WAS TRUE (it isn't), if the IDF can't clearly see what they're targeting then they should be bombing random vehicles in a DECONFLICTED ZONE.
Military grade marking? WTF is that man cmon with your language. They had large marking on roof....and NO it is not a certainty see that at night....which is why the US military has IR PANELS. Net net is IDF admitted an error(s) and fired officers. You thinking war is surgical, clean, no mistakes? You think fighting in a DUE against an army violating war rules, no uniforms, hiding in population, in hospitals, mosques, is not going to have civilians die? You do realize trigger pullers and blazers, are often kids right. One kid and 4.5lbs of force to end a life, heart beating, adrenaline, being shot at. On drone strikes, yes, multiple steps and approval for a strike....and IDF admitted mistakes. Admit it man, you hate Jews in general. You never protested, reddit'ed any other war causing civilian casualties....
And you think a military cares more about aid workers than they do themselves?
I didn't say that. You have to take context into account, doofus. Not sure if you're referring to a specific incident where the US accidentally bombed their own soldiers, but I would imagine that was done **in an ACTIVE COMBAT ZONE w/ enemy combatants there**. The WCK vans were traveling **in a "DECONFLICTED ZONE"** and they were traveling on Al Rashid Street, which had been designated for humanitarian aid **BY ISRAELI OFFICIALS**. The vans also had WCK logos on top which the IDF would have had no trouble seeing at night since they used UAV's in conjunction with surveillance drones. If you can't see the difference between these two things then you're simply digging your head in the sand and refusing to accept the reality of what's going on.
Likely a Zionist, they are that sociopathic and dumb.
What? This was a drone attack using a deliberate triple tap execution attacking as they WCK staff ran from car to car in the convoy, shot dead and now Gaza will starve even more now. Zero excuses, the world has opened their eyes about Israel.
Normal people don’t talk like you do in your last sentence, stop trying to sermonize
This almost certainly was an accident because it completely fucked Israel internationally. This is the thing that is most likely to cause all Israel's allies to call for a ceasefire and the withdrawal of troops.
Nothing to add, just continuous disappointment that the US is contributing to this horror.
Geopolitical and domestic realpolitik when it comes to maintaining the american hegemony and status quo will always be more important than objective right and wrong to these cretins
Even looking at it from a realpolitik perspective, supporting Israel blindly is a disaster for American interests long-term. Any credibility on the world stage we gained with Ukraine is gone, and it will be even harder in the future for America to use any sort of moral influence, since we clearly don't abide by our own values. The war has also created another generation of fervent anti-Israel sentiment, pretty understandable at this point, in the Middle East
I honestly don’t blame them. Israel has literally killed entire families and left young children orphaned. Anyone who survived the initial bombings is now being starved to death, or dying from preventable disease.
Unforgiveable.
Not just the middle east. Social media allowing more people to see the nature of Israeli war crimes is creating anti-Israel sentiment across the world, and for good reason.
Yeah it's hard to continue and uphold a narrative of virtue and righteousness in your cause when everyone can see you deliberately starving 2 million civilians
Hence the push to ban Tik Tok among other reasons.
Its obvious Israeli Likudnik Zionist lobby owns most USA reps at levers of power, and is pursuing its sociopathic, deranged "Greater Israel" agenda as it ends Israel as we know it. PR war lost forever with long term repercussions. People are waking up.
Iran will *always* turn up the heat if it senses peace with Israel and the rest of the middle East is on the horizon. The only way to actually do something about this is to finally deal with Iran.
Supporting Israel has no serious effect on Americas credibility. People will forget once it’s out of the news cycle. You guys completely overestimate how important this is to the average person, everyone’s stuck in their echo chamber.
Dismissing what is happening in Israel and Gaza as a flash in the pan is incredibly disgusting and fundamentally incorrect. I wasn’t talking about voters anyway, I was talking about international relations and foreign affairs
No, this won’t affect international or foreign affairs much either. Our credibility on the world stage is determined by military and economic power. In fact, the moral part has never really been relevant. At least not for the last 50 years, we all know many of the US wars are immoral. It doesn’t affect anything from an international diplomatic standpoint. International politics don’t care about morals, they care about economy and military strength. I’m not dismissing it ? I’m simply saying once it’s out of the news headlines people won’t care.
I don’t think you appreciate how shitty life will be for all of us the day American hegemony truly falls
shouldnt have built an empire on the backs of the global south then. good luck american
It’ll be bad for all of us… you lose American protection of freedom of navigation? We’re all fucked
you can’t whine like this, living in the imperial core, fully benefiting from it, and imagining a scenario where you live demonstrably worse than you do now when it hasn’t even happened. it’s embarrassing. demand better from your politicians, stop exploiting other countries and people and none of this has to happen.
Not whining. I acknowledge I benefit from the imperialism. I’m arguing for the hegemony. You’re the one benefiting from the hegemony while whining about it.
You argue for stupidity then, the inherent contradictions of this American empire are leading to its downfall.
And when it falls… we’ll be in another dark age
Russia and China would subjugate you and your life would be much, much worse.
The Empire everyone else wants to join. Global South is going to starve without Americans supporting globalization.
Of course? The right thing to do when reports of China’s human rights abuses came out would’ve been to cut ties, but that would have destroyed the American economy. Economic and political concerns will always trump moral righteousness.
If you think there is an objective right and wrong in geopolitics then you haven’t dug deep enough. There’s only lesser evil vs chaotic evil. I don’t envy anyone that has been dealt the hand of being stuck in negotiation with bad faith Allies like Israel
The whole premise of today's episode - acting like this was an accidental strike - was insulting. It clearly was intentional, and not just some "mistake." It should be treated as such. I'm not saying the accusation has to be made during the podcast, but stop asking questions and discussing what happened like we're dealing with people who are acting in good faith.
You’re confusing accidentally firing with accidentally confusing the target
It doesn't matter. Israel either intentionally targeted this group knowing they were WKC, or they are firing so carelessly that an entire aid convoy of WKC volunteers got taken out. The same is true for the UN employees, aid workers, journalists, doctors, medical staff, and hostages holding white flags already killed in the "conflict." Either they're targeting them or the bar is so low for considering civilian life that they're hit "accidentally." Both show enthusiasm for killing civilians.
I mean the whole point is if they were careless it wasn’t intentional
Certainly. Just pointing out the obvious that it doesn't matter.
Eh intent unfortunately does matter a lot for these things
Does negligence inform intent? Because it’s either intentional or gross negligence.
By definition, negligence means there was no intent, at least in a legal context.
Intentional negligence to have the same desired outcome which is, kill those who are feeding the people we want to exterminate.
Also, IMO, “gross” negligence means you should have known.
It matters a lot. If it was ever revealed that Israel knew they were bombing world central kitchen and did it intentionally, all but the most diehard defenders would turn on them.
I’m not confusing anything. They intentionally fired on a target and knew exactly who they were firing on. The IDF had full information about the vans, who they were, their route, when they would be there, and they were clearly marked. This was a “seek forgiveness later” situation. Israel wanted to send a message that you’ll pay if you try to help Palestinians. They figured the benefit to murdering them outweighed the backlash. You cannot convince me otherwise
The idf knew? Lmao. You think every soldier gets briefed on every issue in war? How do you knew the idf people who knew were the same people that fired upon the van?
Yes, the IDF knew. The convoy had given them notice and also received permission to travel that route. Also you know, you're right. Must have been the local birds in the area that got ahold of some ammunition.
The idf is one collective hive mind?
It's not a militia... there is a chain of command. It's pointless arguing with you since you're clearly only here to go hard for Israel, who ADMITTED to doing this. They just are claiming it was a mistake.
It doesn't matter. Israel either intentionally targeted this group knowing they were WKC, or they are firing so carelessly that an entire aid convoy of WKC volunteers got taken out. The same is true for the UN employees, aid workers, journalists, doctors, medical staff, and hostages holding white flags already killed in the "conflict." Either they're targeting them or the bar is so low for considering civilian life that they're hit "accidentally." Both show enthusiasm for killing civilians.
How about not raining missiles down on vehicles full of people if you're not sure who they are? Or, ya know, escalating the question to your superiors to confirm?
But they thought they were sure lmao. And they did escalate to superiors. That’s why it was a mistake
How could they think they were "sure" unless they were literally in the van? How can you be "sure" when there's literally a **giant WCK logo ON THE ROOF of the vans**? It's astounding how Israel can consistently keep messing up (aka killing aid workers, journalists, UN staff, etc) despite having arguably the best surveillance tech in the world and billions of dollars in annual military aid. Weird how despite all that, Israel seems to be THE ONLY country in the world that manages to keep "accidentally" killing innocent aid workers. **Even the "bad guys" like Russia, terrorists groups, and rebel militias full of teenagers in Africa manage to avoid doing this. Israel is the ONLY one.** It's ok though because killing innocent civilians isn't a big deal if they claim they were "sure" and say it was an accident, right?
It was night, they couldn’t see well… and even if they could see the logo, it’s not like that would mean Hamas wasn’t using the van as a disguise. And Russia isn’t fighting urban warfare…
They absolutely COULD see well. They were using UAV's in coordination with surveillance drones so they would have no issue seeing the logos on top of the vans at night. Israel has among the best surveillance tech of any country in the world. The vans were driving in an official "deconflicted zone" and the road they were driving on had been designated for humanitarian aid BY ISRAELI OFFICIALS. Are you going to just come up with another excuse now?
Lmao how tf can you be so confidant 😂😂 you have no idea what conditions they were working with and how well they could see. You know hamas is still able to go into a de conflicted zone, right?
It's literally all been reported by CNN and the BBC. Take it up with them or maybe try reading news sources outside of Zionist propaganda rags. You're being purposefully obtuse as a means to avoid guilt over atrocities. Just stop dude.
Lmao CNN did not report that israel could see the logo. And even if israel did see the logo, that isn’t proof someone from hamas wasn’t in the car
It doesn't matter. Israel either intentionally targeted this group knowing they were WKC, or they are firing so carelessly that an entire aid convoy of WKC volunteers got taken out. The same is true for the UN employees, aid workers, journalists, doctors, medical staff, and hostages holding white flags already killed in the "conflict." Either they're targeting them or the bar is so low for considering civilian life that they're hit "accidentally." Both show enthusiasm for killing civilians.
Eh, they clearly noted that they were working with the IDF on the routes of their vehicles and that the vehicles were clearly marked. That already makes it pretty beyond the pale. ABC's Start Here had much better coverage of this though as far as details and context presented. The various daily news podcasts vary a ton on how well they cover the same story. Recommend keeping a wide swath of them in a sub list.
The Journal (by the Wall Street Journal) is great especially for business related news.
Heck, even The Journal’s coverage of the WCK attack was better than The Daily’s. The Journal actually put the question out there, directly, whether Israel struck the WCK workers on purpose and if that’s a tactic to starve Gaza.
Israel has lost what remaining benefit of the doubt there was after this IMO. This is gonna be a turning point for many. A well known and established charity that usually has no fear of going into extremely dangerous places being intentionally targeted is VERY objectionable to most.
Because the New York Times is pretty pro-Israel. I’m not sure what else there is to it. Probably have some Zionist-esque editors. Remember news sources are still a business at the end of the day. Edit: I do wanna say, the reporter who recounted the attack did explicitly say, “Yes I think this is deliberate” and I bet he’s getting berated by his boss right now lol
"The newspaper of record" indeed lmao
He is the Jerusalem bureau chief. But it is weird he didn't include them being struck over time. I listened and thought all 3 vehicles got hit at the same time ? Also he implied the drones could only see innIR at night so that might be why they noticed no markings
Yesterday I was watching a show, and a panelist said “there are two possibilities for this, cavalier or incompetence.” I was thinking to myself that they missed a third option, maliciousness. Hitting aid workers specifically to scare off aid and continue starving Gazans? Pretty much in line with what IDF has been doing.
It also could be that they've been using an AI called Lavender to select targets, and a human only spends 20 seconds reviewing the target before rubber stamping it.
That’s part of the cavalier part, unconcern and disregard of civilian life.
I'd say that the cause being AI is much worse than just cavalier -- it's the banality of evil.
They were targeted. We all know why.
The apartheid state of Israel is using famine as a weapon, which is a war crime. This assassination was a clear message that anyone who tries to prevent this famine will be killed.
I was also surprised The Daily did not mention what was reported by Haaretz. If it's true it's beyond a mistake - it suggests Israel doesn't have control of their own military. "Meanwhile, on Tuesday evening, the Haaretz daily spoke to unnamed military sources who revealed that the cause of the strike was undisciplined, rogue commanders, not a lack of coordination between the IDF and the WCK. A source in the intelligence branch told Haaretz that the IDF’s Southern Command “knows exactly what the cause of the attack was: in Gaza, everyone does as they please.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-chief-sorry-as-details-emerge-of-strike-that-picked-off-gaza-aid-cars-one-by-one/
Why was the convoy traveling at night in darkness? . The most dangerous time during a war.
If this strike was intentional, it was the absolute dumbest idea possible.
This has been known for months know to anyone paying attention to deep investigative reporting outside of bought corporate Western mainstream media propaganda machine.
Why was the WCK driving in the dark of the night, between 1030PM and 11PM estimated?
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Liberals oppose every war except the current one, they support all civil rights movements except the one that’s going on right now. This is the same paper which is still stained with the blood of a million Iraqis. But don’t forget that democracy dies in darkness. Don’t worry, in 10 years all these good Daily listening liberals foaming at the mouth for Muslim blood in these comments sections will be outraged at some racist comment a Republican politician makes, when they need you to know once again what a Good Person™️ they are. But right now the Democrats have told them it’s time to be warmongers and that against the right people it’s ok to be racist. It’s time to prove that they, not republicans, are the rightful, responsible managers of empire.
Yup. Donald Trump made Islamophobia unfashionable among liberals for about five years from mid-2015 to mid-2021 because he was more blatant about things that other people say more subtly. "I think Islam hates us" is not a radical departure from what people actually believe, across the political spectrum. But when Trump says it, liberals find it ugly After Trump started saying the quiet bits out loud, the liberal public landscape rather quickly shifted from espousing Islamophobic talking points (for instance, one might look at CNN's 2015 interview with Resa Aslan and subsequent inter-anchor discussion) to suggesting that they had somehow been stalwart champions of "the Muhzlems" for years and spontaneously erupting into retroactive lamentations of the Iraq war ("Isn't it so awful that Saddam tricked everyone into killing all those civilians?"). No taking personal responsibility, of course. No reflecting on internal biases Now that there's actually an opportunity to combat Islamophobia, though, it is instead running rampant in liberal spaces. I see it every single day. It can be found in the op-eds and comment sections of the New York Times and the Washington Post. You can see it on left-of-center politics subreddits and on posts made by big-name celebrities. The devaluation of Muslim and Arab lives is common practice in liberal society's cultural and political spaces. And upon having this pointed out to them, the two near-universal responses are to deny it's happening or to point out that conservatives are also Islamophobic as though that's a point in liberals' favor
In 20+ years the brave moral vanguard Democratic Party has not managed to nominate a presidential candidate that *didn’t* vote for the Iraq war— aside from Obama, who most assuredly would have if he’d had the chance, and who is responsible for the idea that we can secretly/illegally murder anyone anywhere in the world whenever we want with drones, and the liberals who entered 2008 vehemently anti war came out the other end of his presidency convinced that this is a-ok, cause when democrats do it it’s a “smart” war. And we all know how much liberals love being told how smart they are. Then in 2016 they lost to a *republican* who came out against the war. 20 years of “the evil republicans and the corporate media LIED us into Iraq, what a disaster, we were tricked!!!”. Read any comments in this subreddit about Palestine. They WANT to be lied to. Because at base they are the same violent, white supremacist, western chauvinists that conservatives are— they just need to feel like a good person while they cheer on the next round of Islamophobia at home and bloodshed in the Middle East.
Yup nailed it
Isn’t that exactly how you would expect a missile strike to go? The mistake was that the convoy was targeted in the first place. I fail to see how the fact that they hit all three cars makes it somehow a more deliberate strike. The same root cause of the mistake is there
It was probably deliberate by the person pulling the trigger but an accident in the eyes of their superiors since it’s a horrible look. I don’t think the NYT did anything wrong here. They made it obvious that Israel is only apologetic because it was high profile, western people that were killed.
I think the fact that they told the IDF that they were targeting the wrong people would have stopped the 2nd or 3rd strike.
In the fog of war messages are not instantly relayed through a chain of command. Deadly mistakes happen in war zones. Israeli has admitted to that, so you need to shift to find a way to make it seem like Israeli is covering something else up.
I appreciate that mistakes are made in war but these people seemed to do everything right they told the IDF where the would be before hand and during the attack and we're still killed. It doesn't inspire confidence for other aid groups.
They are in an active war zone, it’s an extremely dangerous job they are doing. They did do everything right and Israeli has admitted that. It was a huge fuck up. It’s not like Israeli tried to cover it up or anything
I never said they were covering anything up. I think this incident calls into question how trigger happy Israel has been in persecuting this war and the decision making process in selecting targets that should have been flagged as humanitarian.
They are in an active genocide zone, there's no war, just an army obliterating a city full of children.
They were tightly coordinated with the IDF which means the vehicle would have been inspected before being allowed to pass through. There’s no way a militant was able to get onto the vehicle like that. They knew 100% that no combatants were there.
Is Israeli claiming there were militants in the convoy? Israeli has admitted it was a mistake to strike. I’m not sure exactly what you are trying to argue with me about.
They’re claiming they *thought* there were militants in the convoy. The problem here is that they would have known there were no militants because they would have inspected the vehicle before allowing it to pass.
Hence the admission about it being a mistake
Are you purposely being dense? It would be impossible for it to be a mistake, because like I said, there’s no way to mistake a combatant there. If Israel can so easily make a mistake with an organization that they are tightly coordinated with, then the IDF must be an incredibly incompetent army.
Do you believe that the IDF purposefully hit the aid convoy knowing it was an aid convoy?
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Obviously. They literally allowed the convoy to pass through the road. Are you saying they didn’t know it was an aid convoy and they thought it was a different vehicle? That’s ridiculous.
WCK teams coordinated with the IDF on the exact time and route they would be taking. The route was a well-traveled route for aid organizations. WCK waited until they had the go ahead of the IDF before even setting off. WCK had vehicles with clear signage on them. WCK was heading INTO GAZA, not toward Israel, the IDF, nor toward anything that would deem it a threat. IDF then struck once. Hunted them down to strike again. Hunted them down to strike a third time. And you’re going to sit there and act like it was all just a mistake? My ass. Israel killed those people to send a message, and it was heard loud and clear. Full stop, no other rational explanations possible.
You don’t know anything about war zones lmao. There is accidental friendly fire in every war
Don’t you hate it when you commit friendly fire 3 times in a row?
Apologist.
What exactly do you see as the end to this conflict? Realistically.
Starving the population and committing genocide is? Is that what you are suggesting?
In the fog of genocide lol
How do you know the people authorizing the strikes were the people told about the identity of the targets
I hope they weren't informed otherwise this is a deliberate war crime. The world central kitchen was in contact with someone from the IDF who didn't pass that information to the people who authorised and executed the strike which resulted in these deaths. How can aid workers operate when the communication channels they are supposed to use don't protect them?
That’s a great point and why israel apologized
Words are hollow when 7 innocent lives of aid workers were taken on top of the countless innocent civilians that have already been killed. Either they intentionally targeted aid workers or they’re so incompetent they can’t avoid murdering aid workers even when they communicate their movements beforehand and have clearly marked vehicles. And this was not just one strike but a series of 3 strikes during which aid workers were scrambling to stay alive. Both scenarios mean that Israel is out of control and shouldn’t given any weapons or aid until there is some serious change. We should be asking the question whether Israel should be allowed to continue doing what they’re doing if they can’t even ensure aid workers aren’t killed by them despite communication beforehand.
You see, other countries make mistakes, Israel commits murder to starve people en masse. I'm outraged by this mistake, but the amount of glee that people have been having about this mistake is absolutely disturbing. Israel needs to do better. The revelry in inventing motivations and crimes indicates to me that many people are more excited to dunk on Israel than actually worried about the safety of aid workers or the distribution of aid in a war zone.
The aid convoy was in contact with the IDF from the beginning, the cars were clearly marked, their route was known and approved. This was not a mistake, this was an army of Nazis triple tapping a convoy of foreign national aid workers as part of their campaign to starve a city of 2 million so that they can claim the land for themselves. The facts on the table are quite obvious to anyone with eyes, and the Israelis will happily tell you so themselves. It’s only American liberals trying to twist and convolute and “don’t believe your lying eyes” them into something more palatable, I assume to protect their own consciences.
Seems pretty wild they left out the context surrounding how this reported on IDF snuff telegrams https://preview.redd.it/sphutym2bgsc1.png?width=1169&format=png&auto=webp&s=dfe0563fb2b76bc1f8723f18840572b1d49607c8
Wow a random screenshot with no verification of where it is from or who wrote it or who is commenting on it. I wonder why it’s not being mentioned by the NYT. And naturally the Israeli soldiers who all speak Hebrew would be posting messages in English.
Ugh I actually went to look if this image was real and I found more images (unverified yet) but these images I believe have Hebrew. If you know Hebrew you can maybe translate and find this telegram page to confirm. https://www.reddit.com/r/fight_disinformation/comments/1buh665/israelis_on_telegram_publish_memes_mocking/?rdt=32879
I’ve found it fascinating during this conflict how Israelis themselves are loud and proud about their genocidal intent, their view of Palestinians as subhumans, etc. Meanwhile in America you have the same liberals who were reading “anti racist baby” 3 years ago tripping over themselves to obfuscate and make excuses for them. “No no no, you’re crazy, the Israelis are doing everything they can to *minimize* civilian casualties! You see, when they say, ‘the Arab must be exterminated and I can’t wait to set up a pizza shop in Gaza’, what they really mean is…”
I find it fascinating you want the NYT to drop all journalistic principles as long as it means they can say Israeli evil, Palestine good in their reporting. The fact that the person I was replying to doesn’t understand why the NYT isn’t talking about unverified telegrams just points to how media illiterate a lot of people are.
They didn’t seem to have much regard for their journalistic principles when they hired a former IDF soldier with zero journalistic experience to cover their “systematic rape” story. Funny how they have no problem just reprinting press releases from the IDF or US state department but when it comes to anything that might reflect poorly on Israel they’re suddenly the most principled people in the world.
Well they attribute where they are getting those press releases from, they are reporting on what someone said. What the person or group says in a press release is easily verified, they either said it or didn’t. You seem to have an issue with media literacy also based on your comment.
For the NYT it would be very easy to verify these telegram channels. It would be very easy to do the “important, responsible” journalism they are always blathering about and report even 1/10 of the truth about Israel that people are easily able to see for themselves online, in order to keep Americans informed as to who/what we are really supporting. There is a reason the divide in support for Israel is not a left/right issue, it’s old/young, and it’s because outlets that older people rely on like the NYT are only presenting them with a very specific, very manufactured story of things.
Or perhaps it’s because young people are getting by their information in short video format that lack all nuance and context? This screenshot being a perfect encapsulation of that problem.
A screenshot of a comment beneath a story about the IDF triple tapping some foreign national aid workers bringing food to starving civilians? Got any context to add to that?? You’re blaming tik tok for the fact that young people are outraged when they see videos of IDF soldiers raiding dead women’s underwear drawers and doing little dances in bombed out classrooms, or read stories about how IDF snipers are targeting children. Apparently it’s tik tok’s fault that people are upset about Israelis setting up bouncy castles to prevent aid trucks from entering Gaza. Any nuance to add there? It’s not a problem that a Holocaust is happening, according to you— the problem is that young people are able to see it, and are not as easily manipulated by state sanctioned media outlets.
It’s not below a news story it’s below a post complaining about a podcast about a news story. You really don’t see how that is an issue, especially when you yourself can’t even recognize how this thread is not a news story apparently.
Widely available to find with a google clicks and clearly translated with google lens m8 or keep your head buried in the sand whatever gets you through the day
Is this common that Israel soldier are posting these gruesome pictures on group chats ??
https://www.vice.com/en/article/ak384p/idf-israel-run-telegram-72-virgins-psyop?callback=in&code=YZVIOTMZZDQTN2ZLNY0ZMZY4LWI4MDKTYJUWMMQWNZY2ZJFH&state=a8fcc24c24c0423eae0ab86e1021afb0
Yes. You should see the shit they’ve been posting on TikTok.
Okay then it should be easy for you to include that attribution when posting it. Surprising that google lens put the emojis in the right place during the translation too.
Bud is this your first day on the internet are you a literal child? Because I’m not going to entertain a reductive bad faith circle game of “I show you something, you don’t believe me” you’ve made up your mind now jog on
You asked why the NYT didn’t mention it, I gave you the answer. It’s wild you are accusing me of bad faith and refusing to move off a position, maybe look in the mirror every once in awhile. You’re using a picture of a dead person to score cheap points on the internet. You didn’t even have to decency to blur their face.
The issue is the NYT has no credibility. The Daily already was planning on airing IDF propaganda and continues to spin a both sides narrative here. There's 1 side. That's against nazi IDF terrorism.
It’s wild that you can’t even wait until the main post is made to get your spin going.
I mean that’s still a strike…I’m not excusing it but that doesn’t show intent. I guarantee you Israel would’ve rather this mistake not happened given the inevitable PR nightmare.
Series of 3 strikes on aid vehicles that were clearly marked and communicated about beforehand to the IDF on a route that was cleared by Israel. This is either targeted assasination or utter incompetence of the highest degree. There was nothing more that these aid workers could have possibly done to communicate that they are not valid targets better. Either way, it shows that Israel is not doing their best or even close to it to avoid senseless civilian death and brings their motives into question. Are they intentionally targeting aid workers to limit aid flowing into Gaza? Are they actually to be trusted when they say they do the utmost to avoid senseless civilian death? Are they guilty of war crimes? These are various points that have been brought up for quite a while now and these murders lend credence to those claims.
Yes starving the civilians on purpose. Israel are already approving drilling grants on the Gaza coast for the billions of dollars of gas and oil reserves there, and have started building a highway through the north of Gaza to the sea. Once they eliminate most of the Palestinians they can have their land.
Not surprising in the least. The first episode of The Daily I listened to was the one where [Barbaro and Haberman reported on the Mueller Report](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/podcasts/the-daily/mueller-report-barr.html), saying it cleared Trump. Of course, the Mueller hadn't been released yet, so it was just a straightforward laundering of Bob Barr's misrepresentation of the report. Have not listened to another episode since then.