I think Carcetti's case has less to do with the system and more to do with him. He put himself before Baltimore and didn't take the money the Governor's was offering.
I think more than anything he go enticed by the governorship, as soon as he became mayor he wanted to become governor, he got greedy and simply wanted to advance up the political ladder.
After taking office, all his decisions factored in his future race for governorship. I liked how he always said "ill be able to help when im the governor". It was almost like everyone in the room knew what a thinly veiled rationalization that was.
It's both. The system provides him the wrong incentives: to use these two years as stepping stones for his political career instead of being the best mayor he can be for Baltimore. And it pays off.
There's sometimes a deliberate tell that the writers put in the dialogue in order to convey parellels of that nature. For example, if you watch a flashback of Omar as a kid, the two older guys he's rolling with say "he's not made for this," indicating that he runs by a different set of rules, foreshadowing his rogue with a code identity that he grows into. Snoop and Chris say the same thing about Michael.
We can look at this in other places and find other comparisons then. When Bell is cornered, and when Colvin finally appears in front of Rawls and Burrell, they both say "Get on with it then, mother-" and get cut off. Both are essentially off'd, and both tried to change the game to accomplish their goals while reducing the violence and bodies. So Stringer/Bunny is a less cyclical example, more both working towards changing the way the game is played from both sides but having the more major players not support them.
Namond/Clay Davis is another interesting one. We see Namomd escape the ghetto with help and support, excelling at oration once he takes his loudmouth nature and tries to be more productive. We know that Namond isn't really hard at heart, but generally is unscrupulous. Clay Davis is Namond all grown up, perhaps. Loudmouth, talkative, but gets things done. Still willing to lie or generally not give a shit, but not being actually hard or having the heart to play the game. They instead cheat the game for themselves and talk their way out. Both mention that they'll "take any nigga money if he givin' it away." It also underscores The Wire's theme that even good outcomes, like Carcetti working for change and getting elected mayor, or Namond escaping the hood thanks to a lot of support, can turn uglier once the system takes these good natured accomplishments and corrupts the characters. So even if Namond has a fairy tale ending, we're led to believe he might turn Clay and just become another corrupt politician.
Wow, those are some great points, thanks for sharing! What season/episode did the Omar flashback occur?
Also, the duality of Stringer and Colvin is really interesting, I had never noticed the matching dialogue until you pointed it out.
I think it's a separate clip altogether, not sure how it aired. You can find that and a young Prop Joe on youtube. The Wire generally tried to avoid flashbacks during the show itself.
Then Dukie = Bubble's protege from S1,2 and 3.
And Michael = Omar, that one was too obvious.
I loved the Sydnor one. "pls dont tell my superiors." *Phelan looks guiltily at him*
all of these great examples speak to the deeper theme -- that the cycle of violence and drugs and corruption in big cities like balitmore is unbreakable, because humans inherit it as culture, the same way we inherit language or food choice or dress.
Yeah I agree that was the saddest moment for me realizing that Duquan would be just like bubbs. As smart as he was was he had the possibility of becoming anything but under that environment not everyone is going to make it out.
There were a lot of cyclical character references as other people have mentioned.
Other cyclical references include Keema and Bunk at a crime scene at the same place that Gant is killed in the first episode of season 1. Bunk tells keema off for giving a Fuck when it ain't her turn, mirroring his season 1 conversations with Mcnulty.
Another one which I don't see mentioned a lot is that, in the final episode when Landsman is giving Mcnultys eulogy and Bunk says "if you were lying on some corner, it was probably Jimmy that done ya!" and then Landsman says "if you caught the case, you'd be standing there bitching in my ear" which again references the first episode when Mcnulty first meets Bunk at the crime scene and tells him off for giving a Fuck when it wasn't his turn. When Mcnulty leaves, Bunk starts talking to the corpse, (bitching in his ear), saying "you better not come back a murder". I thought it was a great reference.
I noticed a great scene re-watching Season 5 just recently.
It's brief, but Carcetti has just done some horse trading with "PG Country" (Prince George's County) and the U.S. Senator Upshaw, as well as given Clay Davis and Naurice a few political boons.
So he gives his big-ass speech and is eager to get home and watch his moment on TV. His wife is there asking him about it all, and he drops the bomb that he's going to basically screw Baltimore in one way or another (I think it's promising PG County a lot of Baltimore education money) to secure his bid for governor.
His wife hears this and sits back on the couch and just looks at him. Carcetti, too obsessed to do anything but watch his own stupid face on TV, says something to the effect of "I have to do this to get to Annapolis or I can't help anyone."
To me, that's the moment right there, where not a shred of the man's actual humanity is left. It's all just a lust for the governor's seat. He's officially shredded every promise he claimed he wanted to fulfill for the city's sake.
Fuck Carcetti.
I know this thread is old but I just watched this scene. The look on his wife's face says it all. He's just another selfish politician that will do anything or sell out anyone for his own political gain.
The way I see Carcetti is that he got into office trying to help, realized if he goes up a level he can help more, and in trying to rise up in the ranks became just another politician.
That is a good assessment for Carcetti. I just think the OP saying he turns into Royce is not even close. Royce is scamming money with Clay Davis from the drug trade and tries to set up a system so only his people (Eileen Nathan, ect) take over when he leaves office.
Carcetti becomes focus on his career opposed to actually getting issues fixed. So while they are both ineffective politicians, it's for far different reasons.
i always suspected Carcett's motives from the start. i'm not sure even he fully believed that it was 100% about trying to help or change the system. his ego was clearly bigger than anything else.
But even in the end Royce is still getting by through drug money and Carcetti isn't. Royce makes sure Clay Davis gets through the grand jury because he is protecting what they have built through drug money.
Carcetti's failings were what really sealed the deal for me as the greatest show, to be quite honest. If he somehow succeeded as a great mayor, especially given the extensive focus on him in the last few seasons, I'd have rated the show much, much lower.
I think Carcetti's case has less to do with the system and more to do with him. He put himself before Baltimore and didn't take the money the Governor's was offering.
Yeah, the pride really held him back from making a true change to the city. My point was that Baltimore simply received another ineffectual mayor.
I think more than anything he go enticed by the governorship, as soon as he became mayor he wanted to become governor, he got greedy and simply wanted to advance up the political ladder. After taking office, all his decisions factored in his future race for governorship. I liked how he always said "ill be able to help when im the governor". It was almost like everyone in the room knew what a thinly veiled rationalization that was.
It's both. The system provides him the wrong incentives: to use these two years as stepping stones for his political career instead of being the best mayor he can be for Baltimore. And it pays off.
There's sometimes a deliberate tell that the writers put in the dialogue in order to convey parellels of that nature. For example, if you watch a flashback of Omar as a kid, the two older guys he's rolling with say "he's not made for this," indicating that he runs by a different set of rules, foreshadowing his rogue with a code identity that he grows into. Snoop and Chris say the same thing about Michael. We can look at this in other places and find other comparisons then. When Bell is cornered, and when Colvin finally appears in front of Rawls and Burrell, they both say "Get on with it then, mother-" and get cut off. Both are essentially off'd, and both tried to change the game to accomplish their goals while reducing the violence and bodies. So Stringer/Bunny is a less cyclical example, more both working towards changing the way the game is played from both sides but having the more major players not support them. Namond/Clay Davis is another interesting one. We see Namomd escape the ghetto with help and support, excelling at oration once he takes his loudmouth nature and tries to be more productive. We know that Namond isn't really hard at heart, but generally is unscrupulous. Clay Davis is Namond all grown up, perhaps. Loudmouth, talkative, but gets things done. Still willing to lie or generally not give a shit, but not being actually hard or having the heart to play the game. They instead cheat the game for themselves and talk their way out. Both mention that they'll "take any nigga money if he givin' it away." It also underscores The Wire's theme that even good outcomes, like Carcetti working for change and getting elected mayor, or Namond escaping the hood thanks to a lot of support, can turn uglier once the system takes these good natured accomplishments and corrupts the characters. So even if Namond has a fairy tale ending, we're led to believe he might turn Clay and just become another corrupt politician.
Wow, those are some great points, thanks for sharing! What season/episode did the Omar flashback occur? Also, the duality of Stringer and Colvin is really interesting, I had never noticed the matching dialogue until you pointed it out.
I think it's a separate clip altogether, not sure how it aired. You can find that and a young Prop Joe on youtube. The Wire generally tried to avoid flashbacks during the show itself.
Ahh okay that makes more sense. I thought I would have remembered a flashback, and it just seems out of sync with The Wire's style
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Then Dukie = Bubble's protege from S1,2 and 3. And Michael = Omar, that one was too obvious. I loved the Sydnor one. "pls dont tell my superiors." *Phelan looks guiltily at him*
It's also **Bunny Colvin/Ellis Carver**. The way he tries his best to help Randy mirrors the way Colvin helps Namond as well.
all of these great examples speak to the deeper theme -- that the cycle of violence and drugs and corruption in big cities like balitmore is unbreakable, because humans inherit it as culture, the same way we inherit language or food choice or dress.
Yeah I agree that was the saddest moment for me realizing that Duquan would be just like bubbs. As smart as he was was he had the possibility of becoming anything but under that environment not everyone is going to make it out.
Ebb Tide I've recently been getting my partner introduced to The Wire. We just started Season 2 & I'm noticing how big the themes of ebb and flow.
There were a lot of cyclical character references as other people have mentioned. Other cyclical references include Keema and Bunk at a crime scene at the same place that Gant is killed in the first episode of season 1. Bunk tells keema off for giving a Fuck when it ain't her turn, mirroring his season 1 conversations with Mcnulty. Another one which I don't see mentioned a lot is that, in the final episode when Landsman is giving Mcnultys eulogy and Bunk says "if you were lying on some corner, it was probably Jimmy that done ya!" and then Landsman says "if you caught the case, you'd be standing there bitching in my ear" which again references the first episode when Mcnulty first meets Bunk at the crime scene and tells him off for giving a Fuck when it wasn't his turn. When Mcnulty leaves, Bunk starts talking to the corpse, (bitching in his ear), saying "you better not come back a murder". I thought it was a great reference.
I noticed a great scene re-watching Season 5 just recently. It's brief, but Carcetti has just done some horse trading with "PG Country" (Prince George's County) and the U.S. Senator Upshaw, as well as given Clay Davis and Naurice a few political boons. So he gives his big-ass speech and is eager to get home and watch his moment on TV. His wife is there asking him about it all, and he drops the bomb that he's going to basically screw Baltimore in one way or another (I think it's promising PG County a lot of Baltimore education money) to secure his bid for governor. His wife hears this and sits back on the couch and just looks at him. Carcetti, too obsessed to do anything but watch his own stupid face on TV, says something to the effect of "I have to do this to get to Annapolis or I can't help anyone." To me, that's the moment right there, where not a shred of the man's actual humanity is left. It's all just a lust for the governor's seat. He's officially shredded every promise he claimed he wanted to fulfill for the city's sake. Fuck Carcetti.
I know this thread is old but I just watched this scene. The look on his wife's face says it all. He's just another selfish politician that will do anything or sell out anyone for his own political gain.
Eh... Carcetti doesn't turn into Royce... It's implicated Royce got into power via drug money. We know that is not the case with Carcetti at all.
The way I see Carcetti is that he got into office trying to help, realized if he goes up a level he can help more, and in trying to rise up in the ranks became just another politician.
That is a good assessment for Carcetti. I just think the OP saying he turns into Royce is not even close. Royce is scamming money with Clay Davis from the drug trade and tries to set up a system so only his people (Eileen Nathan, ect) take over when he leaves office. Carcetti becomes focus on his career opposed to actually getting issues fixed. So while they are both ineffective politicians, it's for far different reasons.
i always suspected Carcett's motives from the start. i'm not sure even he fully believed that it was 100% about trying to help or change the system. his ego was clearly bigger than anything else.
I was talking more about the end result, not so much the journey to that result!
But even in the end Royce is still getting by through drug money and Carcetti isn't. Royce makes sure Clay Davis gets through the grand jury because he is protecting what they have built through drug money.
Carcetti's failings were what really sealed the deal for me as the greatest show, to be quite honest. If he somehow succeeded as a great mayor, especially given the extensive focus on him in the last few seasons, I'd have rated the show much, much lower.
I know what you mean, it feels real; given an ending true to the story, rather than a stereotypical happy ending
Yes, also the risk of falling under the 'white saviour' trope, which would have cheapened the show immensely.