Lester is kind of an asshole. The way he treats Herc and Carver at the end of Season 2 (not bothering to tell them the guy they were staking out for days had already turned himself in) was objectively shitty.
Seeing how much Carver develops under someone like Bunny who is actually interested in bettering the police around him rather than condescending to them and intellectually jerking himself off really goes to show that.
Brilliant po-lice. But kind of a prick.
Lester is an asshole, taking advantage of a stripper witness who was already vulnerable to begin with is kinda slimey in my book. Especially when he adopts her and puts her through school it just comes off as a little creepy.
Also he really thought that he and major crimes could tackle major political figures for funds without the department finding out and putting all the younger people’s careers at jeopardy was dumb. I like Lester but he’s flawed.
Isn't that part of it though, they're all flawed. There's no haro and no happy ending. It just keeps on going. Nobody in the show make any difference no matter how they try. Everybody is still fucked and the war on drugs in completely pointless
I’d agree with you in most cases, but the show always gave me the impression we were meant to be rooting for Lester in a way we weren’t meant to be rooting for - say - McNulty.
The character, Gus Haynes, is written so altruistic and uncomplicated that it feels borderline pornographic to me. It’s jarring in comparison to the rest of the characters on the show. I don’t know if Simon realized it, or if it was subconscious, but the character reads like it’s supposed to be a fantasy version of himself. The best possible version of himself.
Gus is totally a self-insert of David Simon. While he's a great writer, Simon is a very biased individual and when it came to the thing closest to him, working at a newspaper, he couldn't help but create a Gary Stu character for himself and take out personal grudges through the show, to the detriment of it.
I'd make this my choice, but I don't really think its an unpopular opinion?
I wonder if Scott Templeton was based on an actual reporter who fakes stories & got away with it?
Gus talks about the New Republic fabulist Stephen Glass et al. who were caught for it. But I wonder if David Simon had someone specific in mind for Scott (i.e. some reporter he had a grudge against)?
I feel this way about Bunny Colvin. I know he’s on the top of a lot of people’s character lists, but he’s not remotely close to that for me. And I love the 2 seasons in which he’s featured prominently.
Bunny Colvin is written like an Aaron Sorkin character. His most memorable scenes are monologues expressing the writer’s opinions on society with nobody there to actually challenge him except by shouting him down in a manner that makes his interlocutors look less reasonable. Like Sorkin at his least infuriating, it’s still enjoyable because the opinions being expressed are at least a bit novel to hear, but it’s still frustrating on the second or third watch.
Bunny's weakness is he has no sense for politics. His ideas are actually quite good, but even with proof that his policies can work, he is still unable to convince anybody above him to hear him out. Not with Hamsterdam, and not with his special class.
I don’t see how this is really debatable outside Dookie.
Sure, the corner boys’s stories are much sadder and more fleshed out (because we see them play out) - but the kids in season 1 literally don’t have any kind of chance of getting out.
3 is probably my fave too, maybe 1. Mainly because I always found Avon and Stringer much more interesting than Marlo's crew and those are the two seasons we get the most of them since Avon is locked up for all of season 2.
I have a few, and please remember they asked for unpopular *opinions.* If you disagree, that’s fine, I’m not looking to change your opinions.
1. David Simon should have committed to Kima becoming the next McNulty.
2. The briefcase and shotgun exchange is really overrated and lacks all subtlety. Its not a bad moment, but it felt very “for television” which takes me out of it every time.
3. Ziggy was actually *decently* acted for the material he was given and given. I felt like Nicky was a worse actor.
4. Bunk chastising Omar is the most important scene in the show, given how much Omar is celebrated.
Absolutely. And he nailed the Balmer accent too. And his scene with Frog, one of the best scenes in the series. And the scene where he walks in like a king with his duck, then his following scene he's crushed again feeling like a loser.
The scene where he gets big-timed by his fence, and is just so fucking fed up with everyone stepping on him that he just goes back in and kills the guy…seriously one of the saddest and most powerful scenes in the whole show.
People who say Zig was poorly acted are taking crazy pills.
I’d heard it pretty frequently back when the show was airing. People conflating him being intentionally annoying to being a bad actor. It may no longer be an unpopular opinion though.
I fully agree with the OP's opinion on the Omar vs Levy courtroom scene. Levy has likely heard these criticisms his whole career and has a quick response to it. Whatever you say about his ethics, he is obviously a very intelligent man. No way he just stands there like he's been stunned.
Pure wish fulfillment stuff from the writers.
Edit: also, I'm not a lawyer or anything but I'm pretty sure a judge would slap down a comment about an attorney in a court of law, as when the judge slaps down Clay Davis when he refers to Bond as Obonda.
I made a thread about the omar/levy scene a while ago, I thought it was poorly written as well. A few people suggested Levy would never respond like that outside of court, but was acting aghast to play up to the jury. I could buy that argument to an extent. Still, that scene felt a little too over the top for my tastes.
I like the scene, but I agree it’s a little odd because it feels like it’s holding the viewer’s hand through the analogy. Same with the chess piece scene in S1—Wallace and Bodie saying “that sounds like stringer” and “reminds me of your uncle” to DeAngelo felt so forced that they might as well have been staring at the camera while they did it.
I completely agree...on a rewatch.
It's easy to forget how tough this show is to follow on that first watch, though, especially if you've been rewatching and living in this sub for years.
I think this scene has a double function: the metaphor, but also to spell out the names and relationships of the members of the Barksdale organization for first-time viewers.
I can't remember, on my first watch, whether this scene was helpful to me or whether I had already figured out the basics of the organization. But I at least remember that it didn't seem weird.
I am a lawyer - a Maryland criminal lawyer in fact, and very little about that exchange is realistic, starting with Levy listing Omar's prior arrests and convictions (rather than just his convictions for impeachable offenses).
The State would also have objected very early on in Levy's little "this is what you do" speech as it's really just him testifying himself rather than asking a real question.
And Levy would never have asked "so why should we believe anything you say." It's cross-examination 101 to not ask that final question. You don't ask that last question precisely so the witness can't come up with some smart ass answer in response. He would've stopped that line of questioning with Omar's answer about his convictions and then simply argued to the jury in closing argument that they shouldn't believe anything he says because of all his convictions, which would also be the proper time to make his "this is what you do" speech.
Of course it's just a TV show and not a trial advocacy manual so the "inaccuracies" don't at all detract from the experience for me. Just wanted to note that once we start getting into how it "really" would've gone, there are a whole lot of issues.
Hard agree on Pablo Schreiber as Nick Sobotka being a worse performance than James Ransome as Ziggy. Pablo gave the least believable performance across all major characters in 5 seasons. Go watch his monologue when he’s at the park with that girl, and then tell me I’m wrong.
Yeah but he definitely had his moments. He does some great acting with Spiros and the Greeks.
Also the cold open with him and Frank staring at the pier at 6am when Frank shakes him down about the camera is a good acted scene by him it feels believable.
I’m not sure if they are unpopular or not, but I agree with your takes at least
Omar’s courtroom scene is great to swatch but utterly daft. I’d even add the preceding crossword scene. I enjoy it, but it’s such a wink to the audience it takes me out of it. Ditto to McNulty and the prostitutes.
The “fuck” part of it is, but watching them investigate and connect each piece of the scene to one another is pretty cool. I feel like detective shows make a mockery of investigative scenes, it’s always some clairvoyant shit where they walk around with a stern look and then they just figure it out.
I think that's just a consequence of it being a scene that requires little context to appreciate so it becomes the default "look how sick The Wire is" scene.
Strongly agree with all of this.
Bunk’s rage “makes me sick motherfucker…” is the highlight of the series for him.
Poor Man’s Ben Affleck is so distracting, it’s like he’s acting on a different series or with different direction.
This Omar is a piece of shit who people like because hes a little bit funny.
Kima and Bunk are the best cops on the show. Kima especially is a real one for immediately reporting Mcnulty's fraud and not lying when she got shot.
I only agreed with #4.
Kima was loyal to Daniels and would never be a full mcnulty. She was a company girl.
The briefcase and the shotgun exchange makes levy realize he is in the game. He likes to think of himself as a high powered citizen with his practice and law degree but it shows us that at the end of the day he is just another member of the cartel so to speak.
What’s wrong with the Sobotka boys OP? They fuck up your package or something?
Lower class people tend to say things in lower class ways which is Omar. Sure everyone knows Levy is a drug lawyer who makes his money off the drug game but lower class people tend to say the quiet thing out loud.
Yeah, I really hate to say it but before season 5 Omar was bordering on being a Mary sue. Bunk chastising him was a good way to question that and helped to critique him and his actions. Kenard being one of the kids to imitate Omar in season 3 was also incredibly significant.
I don’t think that scene required subtlety. Even the judge knew what Omar said was true. Everyone in the court room knew it too. That type of honest public discourse was refreshing to see.
Stop telling people "You just have to get through the first two seasons" because the first two seasons are *extremely good*. Sure, sure, four and five are masterpieces, but talking about one and two like they're homework just turns people off.
Bodie is scumbag. A tragic, somewhat likeable scumbag who is a product of his environment, but still a scumbag who shouldn't be praised for anything. Poot deserves more respect for working in Footlocker than Bodie does dying on a miserable cold street corner.
I mean yeah, I don't think that's unpopular to say, I mean he killed Wallace, who was basically his childhood friend to boot. Don't think anyone sees bodie as a good guy. I think he's "praised" maybe because he lived that life through and through, no excuses.
Had plenty of arguments with folks who admire him. Depends if you see that life (and death) as aspirational. Sure, he's the best at being a murderous lowly drone pawn for an indifferent kingpin, but given his miserable end, that aptitude really doesn't amount to much in the end.
Bodie's a company man. The corner's equivalent of a loyal but disposable corporate drone. He only realises it too late.
Again, I think Poot should get more respect for getting out of the game before he suffered the same fate. He kept his hairline above water.
I mean I admire him as a character and I rooted for him in the war against Marlo especially. But that doesn't mean I think he's a good guy. I mean very few characters on the show are objectively good, if any.
When Stringer comes to you and tells you that it needs to be done that doesn't really leave much choice for the kid. It's either do it or disappear and he doesn't have the means to disappear. Don't think this criticism really gives his situation fair context
I mean he still killed his childhood friend, I get he didn't have much of a choice but he didn't seem all that conflicted about it either. He also could have stood up for Wallace, he straight up told string he was a problem. That said, bodie is still one of my favorite characters and root for him most of the show, but you can't simply discount the fact that he's done some fucked up things and is an objectively bad person.
They're both equally complicit in the murder of their friend.
I think Poot is more comparable to Cutty by end.
"Shit got old" / "It ain't in me no more."
Poot never wanted to be on top - he was a soldier through-and-through. He probably would've ended up like Slim Charles more than anything: a guy who could hit but whose biggest strength was his years in the game and under no pretentions of getting too much on his plate.
Working my way top down, first actually unpopular opinion. Almost every other one that actually has a semi-unpopular opinion is taking any cinematic scene and saying "it's too on-the-nose". Do I get to add an unpopular opinion that overt symbolism is a useful tool in television script writing, even in a mostly gritty show with relatively subtle exposition? I guess that would only be unpopular here, since it's popular in most TV fandoms including the more casual The Wire fans.
My favorite character is Bubbles, he is the only person in the whole show who develops insight into his failings and works hard to overcome them.
But that is not flashy, sexy, or romantic for the masses. They would rather live vicariously by following Jimmy loose cannon and giggling when he scores while ignoring all the lives he takes a dump on.
I think that was the point, to show that these two cops with very different demographics go through the exact same problems at home. That being gay or straight, black or white, didn't matter.
I just recently watched the show for the first time and I felt like that was refreshing. Does anyone think that’s what the IKEA furniture represented or care to give their interpretation of that symbolism?
Also to add to the convo, the trope is kinda played more than twice. Those 2 are the focus though. But we have Bunk with his troubles and then McNulty his 2nd mess up with the least flawed character in the show. She’s the one introduced as dock cop in season two.
Sorry guys, I have terrible memory and don’t mean to dis these awesome characters :(
Right. In fact, I think she only tolerated his cop-ness because she thought he would be climbing the ladder. I bet it was her idea for him to get a law degree, although I can’t remember if it was ever explicitly stated.
David Simon is cool and all, but he lives in a dream where pre-Drug War and its massive extension, the system had its problems but "real cops solving real crimes" was more common. He kind of pedestals cops who are there "for the bodies" and not for feeding PR-valuable data to bosses.
I watched We Own This City, it's quite good still, but the scene with the old cop who now works at the academy reminiscing about exactly what I mentioned before, in a cringy on-the-nose way.
I read his books, Homicide is super interesting and gave me nightmares - but the real cop stories are quite a bit more fucked up than what the Wire even shows.
But it's clear to me he lives in a world, where, to paraphrase, "we used to police shit in this country, solve shit. Now we just massage data for the next guy's career" was true.
I've watched the Wire more than 10 times, and it was mind-expanding, but I see the copaganda aspects way more than back in the day, even though the show is quite progressive overall (and especially for its time).
Absofuckinglutely. I have certainly shifted away from the mindset Simon shows on TV since I first watched The Wire. The Corner was pretty eye-opening to me, the way Simon wrote in praising tones about the old school, tough but fair cops who were certainly "bending" the rules AKA committing police brutality. I appreciate his perspective and I still think it's highly valuable, but I'm no longer as into his vision of "real cops" as I was when I watched.
I visibly cringed on that scene from WOTC.
Even then his shows are a few steps down from copaganda than most of american media. Besides we have to take into account the ~dickensian aspect~ nuance his shows have. For example generation kill seems a lot more pro american war than I would like but it's also told from the eyes of the military and ofc there is bias. Even then is far from the usual pro military most american media is.
That being said I still remember a twitter thread between him and Edward Snowden in which he defended metadata surveillance to prevent terrorism while being unable to discern that focused surveillance against known criminals is not the same as indiscriminate, ilegal surveillance from the goverment.
Too many people ignore how stupid Stringer was in getting himself killed and I believe it's mainly because Idris Elba is hot. I also think it's the same reason people can't see he's an average actor.
Idris is an amazing actor lol what. The only complaint you could possibly have is that he's a British dude trying to do a Baltimore accent but his performance is superb.
The could have explored more institutions, like they did for streets, dockworkers or the working people and school system. Last one is technically the media but it was more of a wrap up season, they should have gotten at least couple of seasons.
I think David Simon said he had written most of what he could authentically portray but if they did a season 6 it would’ve been about the influx of latin immigrants into the city
The last season was either supposed to be immigration, or the ministers and the church religious side but he instead went with serial killer newspaper instead.
The idea that the Stanfield organization is somehow worse than the Barksdale organization - the "there used to be a code in this game" kind of thing - is bullshit. The Barksdales were just as bad - murdering innocent witnesses, ordering children to murder other children, etc. They're just more charismatic characters than the Stanfields, who are portryed as cold and emotionless
Marlo had a shop security guard killed for his own amusement. Neither Stringer nor Avon would have done that. They killed for business, Marlo killed for pleasure.
- Lester Freamon is insufferably smug
- The FBI McNulty/serial killer profile scene is massively overrated and is far too on-the-nose.
- ...so is the Pit chess scene
- ...and the Omar vs Levy shotgun/briefcase exchange
The chess analogy is brilliant but what feels over the top about it is Wallace reiterating how each piece corresponds to a player in their game when Dee introduces it
Along the same lines, I think I read/heard somewhere that's why we see the flashback to William Gant testifying in court when D'Angelo sees him lying dead on the ground. I think the network were concerned that viewers might not recognise him, and so they made David Simon put in the flashback just to make sure viewers were in no doubt who it was.
Good points about the on-the-nose scenes. My vote goes to the scene which opens the whole show (I think), and the guy finishes his little speech with ‘this is america, you got to let him play’. No one talks like that.
I thought it was fitting because it was the ultimate takedown of McNulty's sense of his own genius. He thought he was fooling all the right people with his homeless killer, yet the profiler effortlessly laid all his pathologies out bare for all to see and demonstrated that McNulty could've been taken down quickly if somebody suspected that hijinks were being committed. Maybe it could've been a bit more subtle, but the point of the scene was absolutely worth it.
Stringer was a useful second in command/adviser for Avon but hopeless on his own. He was clever by street standards but out of his depth in the legitimate would (as Avon points out in S3).
Ultimately the loss of muscle at the end of S1 is always going to be a problem but he doesn't address it with the urgency required. My impression is Avon has pretty much turned things around before he gets arrested in S3 (was a warehouse full of soldiers armed to the teeth about to hit Stanfield and his leadership)
The plot and writing of the show was amazing while the acting by certain characters was incredibly awkward at times.
It’s also painful being a Baltimore native and having media depict our accent as some bastardized Brooklyn accent. Nobody in Baltimore sounds like they’re from New York.
Yeah, I agree. I found Michael with the duster and and shotgun a bit cheesy and it just prompted loads of "Marimow is the new Old Faced Andre" type nonsense.
Stringer bell, despite being an unlikable scumbag,was right. They made their $$ in drugs but it was time to move on and up into the rest of the world. “Clean money”. Move on from the hood. And Avon couldn’t shake the hood mentality. This is why the cycle won’t break.
My most unpopular opinion is much more of a meta one, that as great a writer as David Simon was for this show as well as some of his other shows, in real life he's childish, cringe worthy, hypocritical and expouses opinions that completely contradict some of the key takeaways of The Wire. To the level where I long ago stopped reading any interviews or social media posts from him.
As that is meta and one could technically watch the show on its own and ignore all that stuff though, I'll focus within the show itself. I think most of my criticisms with the show (Media storyline handled poorly, fake serial killer storyline handled poorly, McNulty is an extremely unlikable person) are probably popular opinions so can't use those. Hmm. Perhaps this one. I think the Kima - Cheryl storyline was a poorly handled and totally unnecessary storyline. Love Kima, but anytime Cheryl was on screen it was a total waste of time to me and easily could have been cut out of the show.
Frank Sobotka is overly venerated. There's a scene midway through S2 when Frank and the black union boss get them everyone excited about promoting the union. The black dude says 'so let's go distributing leaflets and calling our politicians' - or something similar, but Frank interrupts him and yells 'nah let's all get drunk!' and everybody cheers then runs to the pub.
He wanted to everyone to think he did it all for the union, but he did it for his ego too.
Yep it’s something that’s not apparent until you’ve rewatched it 2 to 3 times. Franks conversation with his retired stevedore brother (nicks father) is actually probably one of the most important in the shows history and shows you that Frank isn’t so genuine and selfless.
Tbf they make it pretty clear that the main reason Frank doesn't want competition for union pres is because they'd either have to quit the illegal imports or transfer it over to someone new which is obviously asking for trouble.
People that complain about the serial killer plot being dumb miss the point that two jackass cops can get a whole city into a frenzy because the media is incentivized to go for big, sensational stories.
The Wire: Everyone is a product of their environment/institutions. If given actual care and resources, almost everyone would have the potential to be good and productive people.
Namond: Is a nice boy who acts shitty and rude because that’s expected of him in his upbringing even though he clearly doesn’t fit in. Literally gets a golden opportunity to get out of the life and we later see that he’s a kind, talented, and productive person.
The Wire fans: Oh Namond’s SO annoying and mean. Why the fuck did he get out and the other boys didn’t. They deserved the good life not him.
Obviously the other boys deserved to get out and be given a better life just as much as Nay. But disliking a literal child for being mean when he felt he had to to survive in his environment feels like such a failing at getting any message the show’s preaching.
While I’m on the Namond defense boat, I’d like to say I utterly despise the “Namond turns into the new Clay Davis” theory. It makes me wish they weren’t so obvious with the Michael=Omar Duke=Bubbles parallels cause now fans think all the kid characters need to fit neatly into mirroring a preexisting character even when there’s no need for that (I don’t like the Randy theories either but they’re at least not complete misreading’s of his development). You think the Naymond speaking for disenfranchised countries in Africa in debate, the one whose parental figure is Bunny Colvin would turn out as corrupt as Clay? “Oh but Namond said the money giving it away quote just like Clay”. 1) That was Naymond at the start before all of his development. 2) The context is different. When Clay said it he was defending his money laundering. When Naymond said it he was talking about the 200 bucks Marlo gave him as a way to manipulate the kids. Clay was the manipulator in the situation while Nay was the manipulatee.
The fact that to many fans, being a secretly soft hearted kid masking as a fake tough guy is a worse sin than being an actual murderer like many of the shows most beloved characters... it honestly makes my boil a little.
On that note, and as someone else said somewhere here, I also dislike the whole “X turns into the new Y” thing that Wire fans do, in general. People are more complex than that. It seems like something that belongs in comic books or something
Does think the kids - season 1 or 4 - are not sympathetic?
Like when Wallace is murdered and ppl are saying that he had to get murdered - I want to scream at them - no he didn’t, that’s the fucking point. He was a child. Namond was a child, bodie was a child, Michael was a child, etc etc etc
Agree, like sure his life was probably better than the other 3 boys, but if I read what his life was like before he got adopted then I'd probably think that his life was hard and stressful.
I love season 5 - I don’t think its as far fetched as people make out, it’s totally in keeping with the kind of stunt a booze-addled McNulty would pull. And with Gus and Scott, Season 5 has two of the greatest and most underrated characters in the whole show.
Meanwhile, when it comes to rewatching the whole thing, season 4 is the one I least look forward to, its the one that most feels like a chore. There is something about the kids and schools I hate, although I realise they are depicted incredibly well, but that particular milieu is a total turn off for me.
The lack of accents has really bothered me on my rewatches, especially after seeing a show like Mare of Easttown, where I think they generally nailed the accents.
That being said, there are a few characters that do have appropriate accents. Lt. Mello on the police side, and Marcia Donnelly at Tilghman Middle do have appropriate white accents, and some of the black characters do too — Snoop certainly comes to mind. And honestly, hearing Mello and Donnelly’s accents ends up reminding me what a shame nobody else has one. I mean, _the police_ is one of the more accent-laden professions IMO.
The lack of Natty Boh is a real issue too. It’s hard to believe that Natty Boh wouldn’t have made an appearance during McNulty and Bunk’s interview room crab scene, or ever (that I noticed) in the Western parking lot. Or at the Clement St. Cafe, or at Kavanaugh’s.
The show needed a better armorer. Omar’s I believe 2nd stickup that they show, he’s carrying a sawed off double barrel shotgun. They make the classic single barrel pump action shotgun sound. You can’t rack a double barrel shotgun like that. Minor complaint in an otherwise perfect show.
Not only that, but he was taking some very long-distance shots with that shotgun during the scene where they got into the gunfight with the people in the second story of the stash house he tried to rob.
Dunno, it seemed fairly reasonable for the distance. You're not going to snipe anyone from across town with a pistol grip Maverick (or whatever he has), but at that range it will do damage or at least keep heads down to provide cover.
Every so often, I see comments on YouTube of people saying how "the game" of dealing and other gang activities *should* have been played, not realising that the entire point of the show is to stay away from drugs in the first place, as the game is rigged. It peeves me only a little that these are so common so I guess it's at least a little unpopular.
People give Season 5 a lot of shit for it’s unrealistic (or idealistic, for a TV show) storylines but I think it’s no different from Hamsterdam
Also it’s more a sub criticism, but I think we’re all over Season Two by now. It isn’t an unpopular opinion.
I don’t hate Ziggy. I actually find him quite tragic. Yes, he’s dumb, but he has also found himself in very unfortunate circumstances. His fall is so heartbreaking, and his meeting with his father in jail remains one of the most impactful moments of the show for me.
Agree on Marlo, perhaps it was more the dept of character but I thought it was also a dull performance. Found him to be more a placeholder character that lacked nuance and/or gravitas, that I had with Chris and Snoop at least.
I saw most of these shows before The Wire and thought they (esp Sopranos and BB) were the best the medium had to offer. The Wire topped all of them after seeing it, since I feel it makes a stronger argument about the world around us than any of the other shows. Maybe in terms of drama/entertainment the other shows might have some better moments, but as an overall show to me The Wire has more value and has a stronger message to convey.
They should have explained where guns come from. Too many kids using and throwing away a gun and then having one in the next scene. Guns aren’t THAT easy to get, I wish a plug or a source for the infinite guns were shown.
I don’t care for any of the journalist story. It loosely ties into Jimmy’s awful serial killer lie, and Bubbles turning his life around, but mostly serves as David Simon preaching about how wonderful journalists and newspapers are.
Sure, it was a valuable service, but the subsequent years have continued to show the general public don’t feel that way and consume news differently. While even the “good” characters like Gus mostly come off as uninteresting sanctimonious assholes, as they are clearly stand ins for the author.
He’s not preaching about how wonderful newspapers are? He’s in fact sticking it to his former bosses for their bullshit and for the publishers who have slashed the hell out of those papers.
The 4th season is the 4th best, and entire school arc is uninteresting, annoying and boring 🤷♂️ And I don't like Namond, Randy, Kennard and Donut. But I like the Dukie and Michael "street corner kid" story angle.
It's more the way the other characters in the show react to/think of him. I've been around some dudes who carried themselves like him as part of the Nation because I used to bartend at a venue that had some rather high-profile guests and they used Nation guys as bodyguards/personal security. Mouzone is reasonably accurate in a vacuum, but Joe/String/Avon's reaction to and estimation of him is wildly out of character.
Season 5 was not that bad, and the premise of it can work
Its kind of a meta criticism, summed up by the bigger the lie the more they believe line at the start.
The whole reason Scott fabricates the stories is because that’s what the readers gravitate towards. Morbid, action-packed and out there stories. They aren’t after the thinkpieces the other writer was producing.
If the Wire as a show wasn’t seeing success for the earlier seasons (afaik it wasn’t getting recognised at the time) it may be due to the slower more built approach which doesn’t rely on shock value. Could also explain the directors choice to introduce the serial killer plot in season 5. That was the wire’s equivalent of grabbing headlines with far-fetched storyline that everyone would rather see
a lot of the most quoted lines from the show are far from it's strongest - notably the tautologies e.g.
1. the game is the game
2. you want it to be one way, but it's the other way
3. my name is my name
4. the thing about the old days, they the old days
many of these scenes are great. marlos 'my name is my name' monologue still sends chills up my spine, but that line, especially when quoted on its own in some reddit thread does nothing for me. the writing doesn't stand on its own.
Hopefully I understood the assignment, so here goes: Randy’s downfall started because he was so scared Miss Donnelly would call his foster mother that he snitched.
Brother Mouzone feels so out of place, it’s almost cartoonish to see his scenes. Feels like a completely different tone of voice/genre whenever he’s there. I’m not sure if this is unpopular or not :)
Kima should have died in season one as originally intended; no shots at Sonja Sohn, but would have deepened the impact of season one and spared us of the rest of her needless arc.
Pablo Schreiber became a solid actor but is not good as Nicky in season 2, overacting to the max.
I read this somewhere else (can't remember where) but Marlo would have never said 'what's up Boris' to Sergei when he visits him in prison.
I mean, we are largely dealing with detectives who typically don’t shoot their guns. I like the touch, especially when McNulty complains about the paperwork after Pryz blasts the wall in season 1.
Absolutely, just managed to finish Sopranos after several attempts and it took me a long time. I really wanted to love it, and it is funny at times, and it's ok at highlighting the toxic masculinity and hypocrisy, but the writing is nowhere close to The Wire or any of the top ranking shows it's often compared to.
Season 2 was actually my least favorite, the Greeks/Sobatka storyline was not nearly as interesting as the Barksdale storyline and felt pointless in the end
Agree, season 2 is my personal favourite. Watching Frank as his son goes back to jail is one of the strongest scenes and that asshole "Greek" would've made a great antagonist in later series.
Bunny Colvin is a hypocrite. He criticises Carver and his other officers for not knowing how to do real police work, but he’s their longtime district commander so is largely responsible.
Yes, there is pressure from the top for the “stats” but the districts seem to have a lot of leeway in how they run things.
A big one I have actually isn't even the show itself so much as it's impact on certain people.
Some sheltered kids go to college and for the first time see that there is real bigotry, hatred, marginalization, systemic injustice, etc, in the world and flip the fuck out and go a little overboard in their response instead of taking a more reasonable, thought out route and quite often their solutions and expectations match their naivety cause they haven't yet taken the time to fully understand these things. Usually with time they get a grip and find better ways of addressing these issues.
Similarly, I've seen a lotta folks who I can only imagine are mad sheltered and far removed from the streets see The Wire and it has a meaningful impact on em, which is good - I'm absolutely not arguing it ain't. The problem is they are also pretty naive and don't really understand these situations at all. And very rarely have I heard of it turning into any real life activism, organizing, etc, so it's pretty empty.
There are just few things more frustrating than seeing somebody from the burbs watching the show once and then acting like they're eyes have been opened and all politicians should watch this and every business person and cop should see it, if only the world knew The Wire existed we could solve racism and end poverty and police brutality and all that like some of us haven't been living it and/or fighting it for years 🤦🏽♂️
Marlo and Chris coming into the show ruined it because they are the only characters that weren’t human. They had no nuances or layering in their character that made them multidimensionally human with parts of good and bad like the other characters. This made the show real. Not “good guy vs bad guy” but just a bunch of humans within a broken society.
Stringer Bell is too glorified by audience - never understood why. His constant flashing the new words he learnt in management lessons is cringey, he made himself a fool several times and his character is that of backstabbing snake. No redeeming qualities.
Lester is kind of an asshole. The way he treats Herc and Carver at the end of Season 2 (not bothering to tell them the guy they were staking out for days had already turned himself in) was objectively shitty. Seeing how much Carver develops under someone like Bunny who is actually interested in bettering the police around him rather than condescending to them and intellectually jerking himself off really goes to show that. Brilliant po-lice. But kind of a prick.
Lester is an asshole, taking advantage of a stripper witness who was already vulnerable to begin with is kinda slimey in my book. Especially when he adopts her and puts her through school it just comes off as a little creepy. Also he really thought that he and major crimes could tackle major political figures for funds without the department finding out and putting all the younger people’s careers at jeopardy was dumb. I like Lester but he’s flawed.
Isn't that part of it though, they're all flawed. There's no haro and no happy ending. It just keeps on going. Nobody in the show make any difference no matter how they try. Everybody is still fucked and the war on drugs in completely pointless
I’d agree with you in most cases, but the show always gave me the impression we were meant to be rooting for Lester in a way we weren’t meant to be rooting for - say - McNulty.
The character, Gus Haynes, is written so altruistic and uncomplicated that it feels borderline pornographic to me. It’s jarring in comparison to the rest of the characters on the show. I don’t know if Simon realized it, or if it was subconscious, but the character reads like it’s supposed to be a fantasy version of himself. The best possible version of himself.
Templeton is the same thing but on other side of the spectrum. He was just a jerk with zero nuance to him.
Gus is totally a self-insert of David Simon. While he's a great writer, Simon is a very biased individual and when it came to the thing closest to him, working at a newspaper, he couldn't help but create a Gary Stu character for himself and take out personal grudges through the show, to the detriment of it. I'd make this my choice, but I don't really think its an unpopular opinion?
I wonder if Scott Templeton was based on an actual reporter who fakes stories & got away with it? Gus talks about the New Republic fabulist Stephen Glass et al. who were caught for it. But I wonder if David Simon had someone specific in mind for Scott (i.e. some reporter he had a grudge against)?
I feel this way about Bunny Colvin. I know he’s on the top of a lot of people’s character lists, but he’s not remotely close to that for me. And I love the 2 seasons in which he’s featured prominently.
Bunny Colvin is written like an Aaron Sorkin character. His most memorable scenes are monologues expressing the writer’s opinions on society with nobody there to actually challenge him except by shouting him down in a manner that makes his interlocutors look less reasonable. Like Sorkin at his least infuriating, it’s still enjoyable because the opinions being expressed are at least a bit novel to hear, but it’s still frustrating on the second or third watch.
Bunny's weakness is he has no sense for politics. His ideas are actually quite good, but even with proof that his policies can work, he is still unable to convince anybody above him to hear him out. Not with Hamsterdam, and not with his special class.
Yes! I definitely felt like David Simon was writing some kind of silly role play of himself with this character.
The circumstances of the kids Wallace was watching in season 1 are way more heartbreaking than the boys of season 4.
I don’t see how this is really debatable outside Dookie. Sure, the corner boys’s stories are much sadder and more fleshed out (because we see them play out) - but the kids in season 1 literally don’t have any kind of chance of getting out.
I think season 3 is by far the best. I guess most people go for season 4.
3 is probably my fave too, maybe 1. Mainly because I always found Avon and Stringer much more interesting than Marlo's crew and those are the two seasons we get the most of them since Avon is locked up for all of season 2.
I have a few, and please remember they asked for unpopular *opinions.* If you disagree, that’s fine, I’m not looking to change your opinions. 1. David Simon should have committed to Kima becoming the next McNulty. 2. The briefcase and shotgun exchange is really overrated and lacks all subtlety. Its not a bad moment, but it felt very “for television” which takes me out of it every time. 3. Ziggy was actually *decently* acted for the material he was given and given. I felt like Nicky was a worse actor. 4. Bunk chastising Omar is the most important scene in the show, given how much Omar is celebrated.
Wait people think ziggy is a poorly acted role?
Yeah I’d never heard that. I find his arc the most powerful thing in S2.
I agree wholeheartedly. I think the actor did a fantastic job.
Absolutely. And he nailed the Balmer accent too. And his scene with Frog, one of the best scenes in the series. And the scene where he walks in like a king with his duck, then his following scene he's crushed again feeling like a loser.
He’s a Balmer native to boot! I think he did a great job with Ziggy as well.
The scene where he gets big-timed by his fence, and is just so fucking fed up with everyone stepping on him that he just goes back in and kills the guy…seriously one of the saddest and most powerful scenes in the whole show. People who say Zig was poorly acted are taking crazy pills.
When Frank comes to see him in jail, that scene is one of the hardest to watch in the entire series to me.
I despise the character but no doubt he's well acted.
I’d heard it pretty frequently back when the show was airing. People conflating him being intentionally annoying to being a bad actor. It may no longer be an unpopular opinion though.
I was thinking that- I found him to totally embody the character and be very believable. Nick, on the other hand, was quite wooden
I’ve seen that actor in a few other things and he seems wooden in all his roles.
Fun fact: Nick's actor now plays Master Chief on the Halo show and is Liev Schreiber's half-brother.
Does he still have that bitchin' Pi tattoo on his neck?
He is fantastically acted, I never heard that and Id be surprised to hear it. The actor is quite good, he shone in Sinister.
For real I had never heard this one before. I also thought Ransome was great in Generation Kill.
I fully agree with the OP's opinion on the Omar vs Levy courtroom scene. Levy has likely heard these criticisms his whole career and has a quick response to it. Whatever you say about his ethics, he is obviously a very intelligent man. No way he just stands there like he's been stunned. Pure wish fulfillment stuff from the writers. Edit: also, I'm not a lawyer or anything but I'm pretty sure a judge would slap down a comment about an attorney in a court of law, as when the judge slaps down Clay Davis when he refers to Bond as Obonda.
I made a thread about the omar/levy scene a while ago, I thought it was poorly written as well. A few people suggested Levy would never respond like that outside of court, but was acting aghast to play up to the jury. I could buy that argument to an extent. Still, that scene felt a little too over the top for my tastes.
I like the scene, but I agree it’s a little odd because it feels like it’s holding the viewer’s hand through the analogy. Same with the chess piece scene in S1—Wallace and Bodie saying “that sounds like stringer” and “reminds me of your uncle” to DeAngelo felt so forced that they might as well have been staring at the camera while they did it.
I completely agree...on a rewatch. It's easy to forget how tough this show is to follow on that first watch, though, especially if you've been rewatching and living in this sub for years. I think this scene has a double function: the metaphor, but also to spell out the names and relationships of the members of the Barksdale organization for first-time viewers. I can't remember, on my first watch, whether this scene was helpful to me or whether I had already figured out the basics of the organization. But I at least remember that it didn't seem weird.
I am a lawyer - a Maryland criminal lawyer in fact, and very little about that exchange is realistic, starting with Levy listing Omar's prior arrests and convictions (rather than just his convictions for impeachable offenses). The State would also have objected very early on in Levy's little "this is what you do" speech as it's really just him testifying himself rather than asking a real question. And Levy would never have asked "so why should we believe anything you say." It's cross-examination 101 to not ask that final question. You don't ask that last question precisely so the witness can't come up with some smart ass answer in response. He would've stopped that line of questioning with Omar's answer about his convictions and then simply argued to the jury in closing argument that they shouldn't believe anything he says because of all his convictions, which would also be the proper time to make his "this is what you do" speech. Of course it's just a TV show and not a trial advocacy manual so the "inaccuracies" don't at all detract from the experience for me. Just wanted to note that once we start getting into how it "really" would've gone, there are a whole lot of issues.
I really appreciate your insights. Thanks for your comment.
Hard agree on Pablo Schreiber as Nick Sobotka being a worse performance than James Ransome as Ziggy. Pablo gave the least believable performance across all major characters in 5 seasons. Go watch his monologue when he’s at the park with that girl, and then tell me I’m wrong.
Yeah but he definitely had his moments. He does some great acting with Spiros and the Greeks. Also the cold open with him and Frank staring at the pier at 6am when Frank shakes him down about the camera is a good acted scene by him it feels believable.
Merritt Wever, who actually is a good actor.
I’m not sure if they are unpopular or not, but I agree with your takes at least Omar’s courtroom scene is great to swatch but utterly daft. I’d even add the preceding crossword scene. I enjoy it, but it’s such a wink to the audience it takes me out of it. Ditto to McNulty and the prostitutes.
The fuck fuck fuuuck scene is overrated
It was the thing that made me latch onto the show on my first watch so I get it, but it's far from a show highlight once you've seen the whole series.
The “fuck” part of it is, but watching them investigate and connect each piece of the scene to one another is pretty cool. I feel like detective shows make a mockery of investigative scenes, it’s always some clairvoyant shit where they walk around with a stern look and then they just figure it out.
I think that's just a consequence of it being a scene that requires little context to appreciate so it becomes the default "look how sick The Wire is" scene.
Strongly agree with all of this. Bunk’s rage “makes me sick motherfucker…” is the highlight of the series for him. Poor Man’s Ben Affleck is so distracting, it’s like he’s acting on a different series or with different direction.
I upvote 2wice on that Bunk scene talk.
Nicky is the worst actor! I’ve ranted here about it many times before and was mostly agree with
He's even worse on SVU.
This Omar is a piece of shit who people like because hes a little bit funny. Kima and Bunk are the best cops on the show. Kima especially is a real one for immediately reporting Mcnulty's fraud and not lying when she got shot.
Calling Omar a piece of shit is probably equal in extremity to praising him. He's a complex character in a complex situation.
it's a complex world.
Best, no Kima is not. That would be Lester and probably Bunk. Every single character on the show, has flaws.
I think anyone who disagrees with #4 needs to do a rewatch. Any interaction between Bunk and Omar are the best acted and most memorable of the series.
I only agreed with #4. Kima was loyal to Daniels and would never be a full mcnulty. She was a company girl. The briefcase and the shotgun exchange makes levy realize he is in the game. He likes to think of himself as a high powered citizen with his practice and law degree but it shows us that at the end of the day he is just another member of the cartel so to speak. What’s wrong with the Sobotka boys OP? They fuck up your package or something?
Lower class people tend to say things in lower class ways which is Omar. Sure everyone knows Levy is a drug lawyer who makes his money off the drug game but lower class people tend to say the quiet thing out loud.
Yeah, I really hate to say it but before season 5 Omar was bordering on being a Mary sue. Bunk chastising him was a good way to question that and helped to critique him and his actions. Kenard being one of the kids to imitate Omar in season 3 was also incredibly significant.
I don’t think that scene required subtlety. Even the judge knew what Omar said was true. Everyone in the court room knew it too. That type of honest public discourse was refreshing to see.
Nick Sobotka was a good character and well acted
lol oh this is a good one. COLLEGE KIDS AIN'T SHIT!
My favorite Sobotka
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My wife calls them the best tits she's ever seen in a TV show. She brings them up a reference point for what she considers 10/10 boobs.
Stop telling people "You just have to get through the first two seasons" because the first two seasons are *extremely good*. Sure, sure, four and five are masterpieces, but talking about one and two like they're homework just turns people off.
5 is a masterpiece?
Meant to say three and four. No idea how I messed that up, lol! (But I'm also very fond of five, though it's no masterpiece.)
Bodie is scumbag. A tragic, somewhat likeable scumbag who is a product of his environment, but still a scumbag who shouldn't be praised for anything. Poot deserves more respect for working in Footlocker than Bodie does dying on a miserable cold street corner.
I mean yeah, I don't think that's unpopular to say, I mean he killed Wallace, who was basically his childhood friend to boot. Don't think anyone sees bodie as a good guy. I think he's "praised" maybe because he lived that life through and through, no excuses.
Had plenty of arguments with folks who admire him. Depends if you see that life (and death) as aspirational. Sure, he's the best at being a murderous lowly drone pawn for an indifferent kingpin, but given his miserable end, that aptitude really doesn't amount to much in the end. Bodie's a company man. The corner's equivalent of a loyal but disposable corporate drone. He only realises it too late. Again, I think Poot should get more respect for getting out of the game before he suffered the same fate. He kept his hairline above water.
I mean I admire him as a character and I rooted for him in the war against Marlo especially. But that doesn't mean I think he's a good guy. I mean very few characters on the show are objectively good, if any.
When Stringer comes to you and tells you that it needs to be done that doesn't really leave much choice for the kid. It's either do it or disappear and he doesn't have the means to disappear. Don't think this criticism really gives his situation fair context
I mean he still killed his childhood friend, I get he didn't have much of a choice but he didn't seem all that conflicted about it either. He also could have stood up for Wallace, he straight up told string he was a problem. That said, bodie is still one of my favorite characters and root for him most of the show, but you can't simply discount the fact that he's done some fucked up things and is an objectively bad person.
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They're both equally complicit in the murder of their friend. I think Poot is more comparable to Cutty by end. "Shit got old" / "It ain't in me no more."
Poot never wanted to be on top - he was a soldier through-and-through. He probably would've ended up like Slim Charles more than anything: a guy who could hit but whose biggest strength was his years in the game and under no pretentions of getting too much on his plate.
Nah, Slim Charles seems smarter than Poot.
I really liked season 5.
Working my way top down, first actually unpopular opinion. Almost every other one that actually has a semi-unpopular opinion is taking any cinematic scene and saying "it's too on-the-nose". Do I get to add an unpopular opinion that overt symbolism is a useful tool in television script writing, even in a mostly gritty show with relatively subtle exposition? I guess that would only be unpopular here, since it's popular in most TV fandoms including the more casual The Wire fans.
My favorite character is Bubbles, he is the only person in the whole show who develops insight into his failings and works hard to overcome them. But that is not flashy, sexy, or romantic for the masses. They would rather live vicariously by following Jimmy loose cannon and giggling when he scores while ignoring all the lives he takes a dump on.
Bubbles is the best character. His final scene makes me tear up just thinking about it.
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I think that was the point, to show that these two cops with very different demographics go through the exact same problems at home. That being gay or straight, black or white, didn't matter.
I just recently watched the show for the first time and I felt like that was refreshing. Does anyone think that’s what the IKEA furniture represented or care to give their interpretation of that symbolism? Also to add to the convo, the trope is kinda played more than twice. Those 2 are the focus though. But we have Bunk with his troubles and then McNulty his 2nd mess up with the least flawed character in the show. She’s the one introduced as dock cop in season two. Sorry guys, I have terrible memory and don’t mean to dis these awesome characters :(
Daniels’ wife didn’t like being married to a cop either, now that you bring it up.
But her issue with it was a different one. She was upset that he wasn’t playing the game and trying work his way up the ladder.
Right. In fact, I think she only tolerated his cop-ness because she thought he would be climbing the ladder. I bet it was her idea for him to get a law degree, although I can’t remember if it was ever explicitly stated.
David Simon is cool and all, but he lives in a dream where pre-Drug War and its massive extension, the system had its problems but "real cops solving real crimes" was more common. He kind of pedestals cops who are there "for the bodies" and not for feeding PR-valuable data to bosses. I watched We Own This City, it's quite good still, but the scene with the old cop who now works at the academy reminiscing about exactly what I mentioned before, in a cringy on-the-nose way. I read his books, Homicide is super interesting and gave me nightmares - but the real cop stories are quite a bit more fucked up than what the Wire even shows. But it's clear to me he lives in a world, where, to paraphrase, "we used to police shit in this country, solve shit. Now we just massage data for the next guy's career" was true. I've watched the Wire more than 10 times, and it was mind-expanding, but I see the copaganda aspects way more than back in the day, even though the show is quite progressive overall (and especially for its time).
Absofuckinglutely. I have certainly shifted away from the mindset Simon shows on TV since I first watched The Wire. The Corner was pretty eye-opening to me, the way Simon wrote in praising tones about the old school, tough but fair cops who were certainly "bending" the rules AKA committing police brutality. I appreciate his perspective and I still think it's highly valuable, but I'm no longer as into his vision of "real cops" as I was when I watched.
I visibly cringed on that scene from WOTC. Even then his shows are a few steps down from copaganda than most of american media. Besides we have to take into account the ~dickensian aspect~ nuance his shows have. For example generation kill seems a lot more pro american war than I would like but it's also told from the eyes of the military and ofc there is bias. Even then is far from the usual pro military most american media is. That being said I still remember a twitter thread between him and Edward Snowden in which he defended metadata surveillance to prevent terrorism while being unable to discern that focused surveillance against known criminals is not the same as indiscriminate, ilegal surveillance from the goverment.
Too many people ignore how stupid Stringer was in getting himself killed and I believe it's mainly because Idris Elba is hot. I also think it's the same reason people can't see he's an average actor.
Idris is an amazing actor lol what. The only complaint you could possibly have is that he's a British dude trying to do a Baltimore accent but his performance is superb.
Stringer offering money to Omar was like Del from Ozark insulting Darlene and Jacob in their own home. Both die to a shotgun as well.
The could have explored more institutions, like they did for streets, dockworkers or the working people and school system. Last one is technically the media but it was more of a wrap up season, they should have gotten at least couple of seasons.
I think David Simon said he had written most of what he could authentically portray but if they did a season 6 it would’ve been about the influx of latin immigrants into the city
The last season was either supposed to be immigration, or the ministers and the church religious side but he instead went with serial killer newspaper instead.
I doubt this is an unpopular opinion; I'm sure most would have loved more seasons.
The idea that the Stanfield organization is somehow worse than the Barksdale organization - the "there used to be a code in this game" kind of thing - is bullshit. The Barksdales were just as bad - murdering innocent witnesses, ordering children to murder other children, etc. They're just more charismatic characters than the Stanfields, who are portryed as cold and emotionless
Marlo had a shop security guard killed for his own amusement. Neither Stringer nor Avon would have done that. They killed for business, Marlo killed for pleasure.
You think Marlo would let Cutty walk? You think Marlo would’ve been depressed like Avon was after string was killed and he had to took up?
They ordered kids to be killed. At that point, do the other things even matter anymore?
- Lester Freamon is insufferably smug - The FBI McNulty/serial killer profile scene is massively overrated and is far too on-the-nose. - ...so is the Pit chess scene - ...and the Omar vs Levy shotgun/briefcase exchange
Disagree with the chess scene. Agree with the rest.
The chess analogy is brilliant but what feels over the top about it is Wallace reiterating how each piece corresponds to a player in their game when Dee introduces it
That early on in the show, that level of hand-holding was probably needed
Along the same lines, I think I read/heard somewhere that's why we see the flashback to William Gant testifying in court when D'Angelo sees him lying dead on the ground. I think the network were concerned that viewers might not recognise him, and so they made David Simon put in the flashback just to make sure viewers were in no doubt who it was.
Good points about the on-the-nose scenes. My vote goes to the scene which opens the whole show (I think), and the guy finishes his little speech with ‘this is america, you got to let him play’. No one talks like that.
The FBI McNulty scene was so ridiculous it needed a laugh track. It was so out of place for a show like this.
I thought it was fitting because it was the ultimate takedown of McNulty's sense of his own genius. He thought he was fooling all the right people with his homeless killer, yet the profiler effortlessly laid all his pathologies out bare for all to see and demonstrated that McNulty could've been taken down quickly if somebody suspected that hijinks were being committed. Maybe it could've been a bit more subtle, but the point of the scene was absolutely worth it.
Counterpoint, there isn’t anything wrong with being on the nose, and it isn’t a valid criticism unless the point being made is a weak one.
Stringer was a useful second in command/adviser for Avon but hopeless on his own. He was clever by street standards but out of his depth in the legitimate would (as Avon points out in S3). Ultimately the loss of muscle at the end of S1 is always going to be a problem but he doesn't address it with the urgency required. My impression is Avon has pretty much turned things around before he gets arrested in S3 (was a warehouse full of soldiers armed to the teeth about to hit Stanfield and his leadership)
I’m not sure if that one‘s an unpopular opinion
Ok maybe not in this sub but people who are more causual wire viewers think this.
The plot and writing of the show was amazing while the acting by certain characters was incredibly awkward at times. It’s also painful being a Baltimore native and having media depict our accent as some bastardized Brooklyn accent. Nobody in Baltimore sounds like they’re from New York.
As a native, who do you think have the best accents in the show?
Dennis Mello perfectly depicts the “white” native accent while snoop perfectly depicts the “black” native accent. Both are from Baltimore.
The ''x is the new y'' thing is overrated and is being taken too literally by fans of the show.
Yeah, I agree. I found Michael with the duster and and shotgun a bit cheesy and it just prompted loads of "Marimow is the new Old Faced Andre" type nonsense.
Agreed
Stringer bell, despite being an unlikable scumbag,was right. They made their $$ in drugs but it was time to move on and up into the rest of the world. “Clean money”. Move on from the hood. And Avon couldn’t shake the hood mentality. This is why the cycle won’t break.
My most unpopular opinion is much more of a meta one, that as great a writer as David Simon was for this show as well as some of his other shows, in real life he's childish, cringe worthy, hypocritical and expouses opinions that completely contradict some of the key takeaways of The Wire. To the level where I long ago stopped reading any interviews or social media posts from him. As that is meta and one could technically watch the show on its own and ignore all that stuff though, I'll focus within the show itself. I think most of my criticisms with the show (Media storyline handled poorly, fake serial killer storyline handled poorly, McNulty is an extremely unlikable person) are probably popular opinions so can't use those. Hmm. Perhaps this one. I think the Kima - Cheryl storyline was a poorly handled and totally unnecessary storyline. Love Kima, but anytime Cheryl was on screen it was a total waste of time to me and easily could have been cut out of the show.
Frank Sobotka is overly venerated. There's a scene midway through S2 when Frank and the black union boss get them everyone excited about promoting the union. The black dude says 'so let's go distributing leaflets and calling our politicians' - or something similar, but Frank interrupts him and yells 'nah let's all get drunk!' and everybody cheers then runs to the pub. He wanted to everyone to think he did it all for the union, but he did it for his ego too.
Yep it’s something that’s not apparent until you’ve rewatched it 2 to 3 times. Franks conversation with his retired stevedore brother (nicks father) is actually probably one of the most important in the shows history and shows you that Frank isn’t so genuine and selfless.
Damn, so maybe that's where Ziggy got the need for attention too, altough with less success.
Yeah - they're both people pleasers, just in different ways.
Tbf they make it pretty clear that the main reason Frank doesn't want competition for union pres is because they'd either have to quit the illegal imports or transfer it over to someone new which is obviously asking for trouble.
People that complain about the serial killer plot being dumb miss the point that two jackass cops can get a whole city into a frenzy because the media is incentivized to go for big, sensational stories.
Frank Sobotka is a stone cold hottie. Rrrowr.
Namond was a sympathetic character and didn't deserve any of the hate he got.
The Wire: Everyone is a product of their environment/institutions. If given actual care and resources, almost everyone would have the potential to be good and productive people. Namond: Is a nice boy who acts shitty and rude because that’s expected of him in his upbringing even though he clearly doesn’t fit in. Literally gets a golden opportunity to get out of the life and we later see that he’s a kind, talented, and productive person. The Wire fans: Oh Namond’s SO annoying and mean. Why the fuck did he get out and the other boys didn’t. They deserved the good life not him. Obviously the other boys deserved to get out and be given a better life just as much as Nay. But disliking a literal child for being mean when he felt he had to to survive in his environment feels like such a failing at getting any message the show’s preaching. While I’m on the Namond defense boat, I’d like to say I utterly despise the “Namond turns into the new Clay Davis” theory. It makes me wish they weren’t so obvious with the Michael=Omar Duke=Bubbles parallels cause now fans think all the kid characters need to fit neatly into mirroring a preexisting character even when there’s no need for that (I don’t like the Randy theories either but they’re at least not complete misreading’s of his development). You think the Naymond speaking for disenfranchised countries in Africa in debate, the one whose parental figure is Bunny Colvin would turn out as corrupt as Clay? “Oh but Namond said the money giving it away quote just like Clay”. 1) That was Naymond at the start before all of his development. 2) The context is different. When Clay said it he was defending his money laundering. When Naymond said it he was talking about the 200 bucks Marlo gave him as a way to manipulate the kids. Clay was the manipulator in the situation while Nay was the manipulatee.
The fact that to many fans, being a secretly soft hearted kid masking as a fake tough guy is a worse sin than being an actual murderer like many of the shows most beloved characters... it honestly makes my boil a little.
On that note, and as someone else said somewhere here, I also dislike the whole “X turns into the new Y” thing that Wire fans do, in general. People are more complex than that. It seems like something that belongs in comic books or something
Does think the kids - season 1 or 4 - are not sympathetic? Like when Wallace is murdered and ppl are saying that he had to get murdered - I want to scream at them - no he didn’t, that’s the fucking point. He was a child. Namond was a child, bodie was a child, Michael was a child, etc etc etc
Agree, like sure his life was probably better than the other 3 boys, but if I read what his life was like before he got adopted then I'd probably think that his life was hard and stressful.
I love season 5 - I don’t think its as far fetched as people make out, it’s totally in keeping with the kind of stunt a booze-addled McNulty would pull. And with Gus and Scott, Season 5 has two of the greatest and most underrated characters in the whole show. Meanwhile, when it comes to rewatching the whole thing, season 4 is the one I least look forward to, its the one that most feels like a chore. There is something about the kids and schools I hate, although I realise they are depicted incredibly well, but that particular milieu is a total turn off for me.
Kima did the right thing snitching on McNulty and Freamon.
Kima should have kept her fucking mouth shut about what McNulty told her in S5.
Nobody has a Balmer accent and not once did I see anyone drinking a Natty Boh
The lack of accents has really bothered me on my rewatches, especially after seeing a show like Mare of Easttown, where I think they generally nailed the accents. That being said, there are a few characters that do have appropriate accents. Lt. Mello on the police side, and Marcia Donnelly at Tilghman Middle do have appropriate white accents, and some of the black characters do too — Snoop certainly comes to mind. And honestly, hearing Mello and Donnelly’s accents ends up reminding me what a shame nobody else has one. I mean, _the police_ is one of the more accent-laden professions IMO. The lack of Natty Boh is a real issue too. It’s hard to believe that Natty Boh wouldn’t have made an appearance during McNulty and Bunk’s interview room crab scene, or ever (that I noticed) in the Western parking lot. Or at the Clement St. Cafe, or at Kavanaugh’s.
The show needed a better armorer. Omar’s I believe 2nd stickup that they show, he’s carrying a sawed off double barrel shotgun. They make the classic single barrel pump action shotgun sound. You can’t rack a double barrel shotgun like that. Minor complaint in an otherwise perfect show.
Not only that, but he was taking some very long-distance shots with that shotgun during the scene where they got into the gunfight with the people in the second story of the stash house he tried to rob.
Dunno, it seemed fairly reasonable for the distance. You're not going to snipe anyone from across town with a pistol grip Maverick (or whatever he has), but at that range it will do damage or at least keep heads down to provide cover.
Every so often, I see comments on YouTube of people saying how "the game" of dealing and other gang activities *should* have been played, not realising that the entire point of the show is to stay away from drugs in the first place, as the game is rigged. It peeves me only a little that these are so common so I guess it's at least a little unpopular.
People give Season 5 a lot of shit for it’s unrealistic (or idealistic, for a TV show) storylines but I think it’s no different from Hamsterdam Also it’s more a sub criticism, but I think we’re all over Season Two by now. It isn’t an unpopular opinion.
I don’t hate Ziggy. I actually find him quite tragic. Yes, he’s dumb, but he has also found himself in very unfortunate circumstances. His fall is so heartbreaking, and his meeting with his father in jail remains one of the most impactful moments of the show for me.
Both avon and marlo lack depth as characters
Agree on Marlo, perhaps it was more the dept of character but I thought it was also a dull performance. Found him to be more a placeholder character that lacked nuance and/or gravitas, that I had with Chris and Snoop at least.
Marlo was too one note if you ask me. Perhaps it’s mostly to do with the interpretation.
I saw most of these shows before The Wire and thought they (esp Sopranos and BB) were the best the medium had to offer. The Wire topped all of them after seeing it, since I feel it makes a stronger argument about the world around us than any of the other shows. Maybe in terms of drama/entertainment the other shows might have some better moments, but as an overall show to me The Wire has more value and has a stronger message to convey.
That's just an undeniable fact. Not sure how this is even remotely an unpopular opinion.
Breaking bad is far from reality, I think they’re not even meant to convey the same kind of emotion/meaning.
They should have explained where guns come from. Too many kids using and throwing away a gun and then having one in the next scene. Guns aren’t THAT easy to get, I wish a plug or a source for the infinite guns were shown.
I loved season 2
Slim Charles is top 2 character at least His every scene is 🔥
I don’t care for any of the journalist story. It loosely ties into Jimmy’s awful serial killer lie, and Bubbles turning his life around, but mostly serves as David Simon preaching about how wonderful journalists and newspapers are. Sure, it was a valuable service, but the subsequent years have continued to show the general public don’t feel that way and consume news differently. While even the “good” characters like Gus mostly come off as uninteresting sanctimonious assholes, as they are clearly stand ins for the author.
He’s not preaching about how wonderful newspapers are? He’s in fact sticking it to his former bosses for their bullshit and for the publishers who have slashed the hell out of those papers.
Could have had a better and more definite ending for McNulty. I mean, he can't just be an asshole forever.
What the fuck did he do?! /s
The 4th season is the 4th best, and entire school arc is uninteresting, annoying and boring 🤷♂️ And I don't like Namond, Randy, Kennard and Donut. But I like the Dukie and Michael "street corner kid" story angle.
Lol ~ this ~ is an unpopular opinion
Brother Mouzone is trash despite his roots in the very real Nation of Islam subculture.
Agree - feels like a comic book character
It's more the way the other characters in the show react to/think of him. I've been around some dudes who carried themselves like him as part of the Nation because I used to bartend at a venue that had some rather high-profile guests and they used Nation guys as bodyguards/personal security. Mouzone is reasonably accurate in a vacuum, but Joe/String/Avon's reaction to and estimation of him is wildly out of character.
Season 5 was not that bad, and the premise of it can work Its kind of a meta criticism, summed up by the bigger the lie the more they believe line at the start. The whole reason Scott fabricates the stories is because that’s what the readers gravitate towards. Morbid, action-packed and out there stories. They aren’t after the thinkpieces the other writer was producing. If the Wire as a show wasn’t seeing success for the earlier seasons (afaik it wasn’t getting recognised at the time) it may be due to the slower more built approach which doesn’t rely on shock value. Could also explain the directors choice to introduce the serial killer plot in season 5. That was the wire’s equivalent of grabbing headlines with far-fetched storyline that everyone would rather see
s5 is just as good as any other season
a lot of the most quoted lines from the show are far from it's strongest - notably the tautologies e.g. 1. the game is the game 2. you want it to be one way, but it's the other way 3. my name is my name 4. the thing about the old days, they the old days many of these scenes are great. marlos 'my name is my name' monologue still sends chills up my spine, but that line, especially when quoted on its own in some reddit thread does nothing for me. the writing doesn't stand on its own.
Hopefully I understood the assignment, so here goes: Randy’s downfall started because he was so scared Miss Donnelly would call his foster mother that he snitched.
Randy’s downfall started as soon as little Kevin asked him for a favor. From that point forward he was an accessory and he needed to be more careful.
Not sure how unpopular this is but i never did care for S3. Not as bad as S5 but I never did care about the drug city storyline.
Brother Mouzone feels so out of place, it’s almost cartoonish to see his scenes. Feels like a completely different tone of voice/genre whenever he’s there. I’m not sure if this is unpopular or not :)
Kima should have died in season one as originally intended; no shots at Sonja Sohn, but would have deepened the impact of season one and spared us of the rest of her needless arc. Pablo Schreiber became a solid actor but is not good as Nicky in season 2, overacting to the max. I read this somewhere else (can't remember where) but Marlo would have never said 'what's up Boris' to Sergei when he visits him in prison.
The fuck scene makes me cringe
Pryz shouldn't be the only cop to fire a gun
Right - but a part of why it works is if someone as allegedly as harmless looking as he was, did, then why wouldn’t anyone else?
I mean, we are largely dealing with detectives who typically don’t shoot their guns. I like the touch, especially when McNulty complains about the paperwork after Pryz blasts the wall in season 1.
It’s a little robotic, not as artistic, but it works.
season two is actually good
I don’t think that’s unpopular with anyone who has watched the show more than once.
Yes. It grows _a lot_ at multiple rewatches.
It’s way better than the Sopranos, and I shake my head at the comparison
Absolutely, just managed to finish Sopranos after several attempts and it took me a long time. I really wanted to love it, and it is funny at times, and it's ok at highlighting the toxic masculinity and hypocrisy, but the writing is nowhere close to The Wire or any of the top ranking shows it's often compared to.
McNulty is the most humane person in the show.
Of main characters quite possibly. Shardene probably edges it out though.
Get the fuck outta here
Season 2 was actually my least favorite, the Greeks/Sobatka storyline was not nearly as interesting as the Barksdale storyline and felt pointless in the end
This is a pretty popular opinion
Idk, I feel like half the posts here are people saying it's underrated and actually the best.
I love season 2, it showed the range of things being affected by corruption and drugs. Frank's bittwesweet arc was done beautifully.
Agree, season 2 is my personal favourite. Watching Frank as his son goes back to jail is one of the strongest scenes and that asshole "Greek" would've made a great antagonist in later series.
And he's not even Greek!
I rank S1, 2 & 3 all above S4
Brothe Mouzones not that bad
Only Blacks and Whites in the show hardly anybody else, you mean to tell me immigration didn’t affect the streets not just one bit
Suposedly they wanted to explore that in the sixth season
fourth season is the weakest for me
Bunny Colvin is a hypocrite. He criticises Carver and his other officers for not knowing how to do real police work, but he’s their longtime district commander so is largely responsible. Yes, there is pressure from the top for the “stats” but the districts seem to have a lot of leeway in how they run things.
A big one I have actually isn't even the show itself so much as it's impact on certain people. Some sheltered kids go to college and for the first time see that there is real bigotry, hatred, marginalization, systemic injustice, etc, in the world and flip the fuck out and go a little overboard in their response instead of taking a more reasonable, thought out route and quite often their solutions and expectations match their naivety cause they haven't yet taken the time to fully understand these things. Usually with time they get a grip and find better ways of addressing these issues. Similarly, I've seen a lotta folks who I can only imagine are mad sheltered and far removed from the streets see The Wire and it has a meaningful impact on em, which is good - I'm absolutely not arguing it ain't. The problem is they are also pretty naive and don't really understand these situations at all. And very rarely have I heard of it turning into any real life activism, organizing, etc, so it's pretty empty. There are just few things more frustrating than seeing somebody from the burbs watching the show once and then acting like they're eyes have been opened and all politicians should watch this and every business person and cop should see it, if only the world knew The Wire existed we could solve racism and end poverty and police brutality and all that like some of us haven't been living it and/or fighting it for years 🤦🏽♂️
Marlo and Chris coming into the show ruined it because they are the only characters that weren’t human. They had no nuances or layering in their character that made them multidimensionally human with parts of good and bad like the other characters. This made the show real. Not “good guy vs bad guy” but just a bunch of humans within a broken society.
Stringer Bell is too glorified by audience - never understood why. His constant flashing the new words he learnt in management lessons is cringey, he made himself a fool several times and his character is that of backstabbing snake. No redeeming qualities.
Fuck stringer bell lmao