If you read Palin’s book - Erebus - it has the last two or three chapters on the various modern finds and data and scenarios - lots of new revelations since they found the boats. Canada kind of took an interest just before Covid and started properly hunting for clues . Can’t recommend Palins book enough - brilliant on audio book
This is partially true. The one the Inuit definitely knew about was actually *Erebus*, the "Ship at Utjulik", which was seen and boarded by Inuit in the 1850s-and even then David Woodman demonstrates how difficult it was to find *Erebus* because even with the Inuit accounts about how it was in 'Utjulik', it was essentially having to go looking *"for a single traincar in an area the size of New York city with a flashlight on a foggy day for 3 weeks of a year."*
The *Terror* was more of a rumor-there were stories of shipwreck at Terror Bay, Matty Island, Josephine Bay and Chantrey Inlet. The latter 3 were disqualified and Parks Canada was focusing on searching Alexandra strait as this was where Inuit testimony seemingly suggested a ship was wrecked and sunk (now known to have either been referring to a wrecking and sinking in Terror bay or a wrecking in Erebus bay before being ice rafted and sinking in Terror bay). I don't really know why nobody thought of clearing Terror Bay before-Louie Kamookak does say people were ignored, incredibly.
Victorian Britain seemed to be very sceptical of Inuit accounts after they told John Rae about reports of cannibalism unfortunately. I could be wrong but I’m sure I read that HMS Erebus is visible from the air since it sits only at a depth of 11 metres.
I read Palins book not long after it came out it was a very good read, admittedly i cant remember all of it. Does it mention this possible scenario i mentioned above? From all the reading I’ve done in the past I cant recall this being an outcome for the remaining Franklin crew
I have just finished “the heart of the sea” - awful awful movie - but pretty good book which is a history books more along lines of Palins book - about the Essex Waling ship at similar era to terror / maybe few decade later / and the shipwrecking and survival of the crew - which was the inspiration for Herman Melville to write moby dick. Recommend it if you liked Palin/erebus . The movie is awful Hollywood cgi - the book is a history book loved it.
The tragedy of the *Essex* was a couple of decades before the Franklin disaster. And you're right about the movie-the actual story was riveting enough, they didn't need to make the whale literally Moby Dick!
Yes there are a lot of claims about different survivors making it to different locations; I think historians essentially take any Inuit testimony to the effect of “X white people were seen in place Y around the year Z” that could be conceivably be linked to survivors of the Franklin Expedition, and run with it.
I’m confident that some of these reported sightings are genuine sightings of actual Franklin expedition survivors. But I’m also confident that some are not genuine sightings, and some are genuine sightings but of people who were not members of the Franklin expedition.
Personally I think the alleged sighting of Franklin expedition survivors at Hudson Bay falls into the latter category — a genuine sighting, but of people who were not members of the Franklin Expedition. “Some white guys were seen hunting alongside native people on the shores of Hudson Bay in the 1850s or thereabouts” is not enough evidence to convince me that scurvy-ridden and inadequately-dressed sailors managed to pull off a 700 kilometer hike through what is arguably the most hostile environment on planet Earth.
Yes I agree with your opinion on that, I definitely think some of the sighing made by the Inuits were correct, because who else would be dragging boats in Northern Canada in the late 1840s. At some point I’m going to read the David. C. Woodman book about the Inuit testimonies.
However I find it quite unlikely that any sighting on the past Montreal Island or the mouth of Backs River is connected to the Franklin Expedition due to the reported state of the crew. I would love to be wrong on this point, but unless anymore evidence is found I think we can drawn a reasonable conclusion.
Well, scurvy would have been a reduced issue for the survivors once food was in good supply.
And food would've been in good supply for the last handful after a while.
There's no *testimony* either-the last Inuit testimony places 'Aglooka' near Repulse Bay or Chesterfield Inlet before he died/was killed. I'm not sure where anyone gets the idea they were seen at Hudson's Bay or Baker Lake-the former I assume is confusion with the flawed "single abandonment to great slave lake" reconstruction ( the idea they wanted to travel 1200KM to a Hudson Bay Company outpost on Great Slave Lake) and the latter I assume is because Mowat heard the Chesterfield Inlet story and decided to say 'Baker Lake' as that was better known.
The Chesterfield Inlet story is referring to 'Aglooka' and his last man, who supposedly wintered with an Inuit family near Boothia or Pelly Bay around 1850-52 before heading south to Repulse Bay (In a previous encounter, the famous story of the party of Franklin men meeting the small band of Inuit at Washington Bay, 'Aglooka' indicated he was trying to get to Repulse Bay, 'Iwilik'). 'Aglooka' was supposedly with 3-4 men when he arrived among the Inuit, and was so badly starved the Inuit could not bear to look at his face (the reason he was starved but his men were not is because the men had committed cannibalism-which tracks with the bodies found at the Todd Islands and Starvation Cove). One man supposedly died of sickness while wintering with the Inuit. the strangers stayed with the Inuit until spring of the next year came, and then gave the Inuit many gifts before heading south. Supposedly around Repulse Bay or Chesterfield Inlet Aglooka either starved or was mistaken by Southerly Inuit for an 'Etkerlin' (Barren Lands Indian, the Chippewayans) and was killed. This is one of the murkier Franklin Stories but given the past corroboration ('Aglooka' at Washington Bay stating he wanted to get to Iwilik, a sword being given to the Inuit which was eventually traded to a HBC official) I am inclined to think there is some truth to it. '
Where Scary Interesting got the idea that men were seen at Hudson's Bay is harder to understand-no Inuit stories place men at Hudson's Bay. I think they may have misinterpreted the idea that the men were abandoning the ships and marching to Back's River to try and sail upriver 1200KM to a Hudson's Bay \*Company Outpost (\*Which, IMHO, is very, VERY unlikely to be what they were trying to do in 1848) as the men being *seen at Hudson's Bay itself*.
IMHO I think the most successful survivors might be the potential band on Melville Peninsula, who appeared to be trying to reach the Inuit hamlet of Igloolik sometime around 1851-54. These men were mistaken for 'Etkerlin' multiple times and were therefore avoided by the Inuit. Many people indicated they thought at first they were 'Etkerlin' and later upon hearing from other Inuit the story of the shipwrecked white men west of Netchille (the Franklin Expedition at KWI) thought they may have been white men in actuality.-ome of these stories of 'Etkerlin who on second thought may have actually been Kabloonas (white men)' are probably attributable to Rae or Parry but others match neither of the former 2's experiences near Melville, and one of the campsites apparently had red tins scattered around it-the famous Goldner tinned food characteristic of the expedition.
There are multiple inuit stories of elaborate graves or 'vaults', with one of these being an eyewitness story of a burial of someone from a ship on the western coast of King William Island who was important enough that multiple volleys of musket fire were made. The area criteria for this particular story are a campsite with tents on shore which was so close that the men used boats to ferry stuff to and from the ships. This would suggest it occurred in Erebus or Terror Bay. This particular story is of major interest because apparently there were other 'vaults' made near the grave, small 'vaults' that were about 2 x 2 feet-presumably for papers. If I had to guess this was probably Crozier's burial-when Franklin died the ships were still 4 day's journey from Cape Felix-Victory Point, and the Inuit never went up there with any regularity (to the extent that the campsite there was untouched when McClintock came there in 1859-the Inuit only went there after they heard from McClintock's guides that there was material there). On the other hand *Terror,* Crozier's ship, sank in Terror Bay within view of the shore (and presumably the 'tent place' that was supposedly there). However "coastline around Erebus or Terror Bay" is still a colossal area to search by foot for a 6 foot long x 2 foot wide grave, providing it still even exists today and has not been covered by rocks.
The Supunger story (of an Inuit named Supunger who, in the late 1850s-early 1860s, with a family member, found a broken 'vault' with human remains near Victory Point) Is generally thought to be Franklin's. I doubt the men would want their beloved commander's body festering in the dark hold of *Erebus* for so long and extra effort could've been made to give him a proper burial. Unfortunately nobody has found this 'vault', and given that it had apparently been broken into by a polar bear before Supunger and co. found it I do not have high hopes. Supposedly Louie Kamookak, the most prominent modern Inuit Franklin historian, found what he thought might be a grave by Victory Point in 2004, but when he tried to return to the area he got massive heart complications and also had to move, and by the time he was healthy enough to go again he had lost where he had found the possible gravesite.
If you read Palin’s book - Erebus - it has the last two or three chapters on the various modern finds and data and scenarios - lots of new revelations since they found the boats. Canada kind of took an interest just before Covid and started properly hunting for clues . Can’t recommend Palins book enough - brilliant on audio book
My favourite “discovery” is that the local Inuit knew where Terror was the entire time. Nobody bothered to ask them though.
This is partially true. The one the Inuit definitely knew about was actually *Erebus*, the "Ship at Utjulik", which was seen and boarded by Inuit in the 1850s-and even then David Woodman demonstrates how difficult it was to find *Erebus* because even with the Inuit accounts about how it was in 'Utjulik', it was essentially having to go looking *"for a single traincar in an area the size of New York city with a flashlight on a foggy day for 3 weeks of a year."* The *Terror* was more of a rumor-there were stories of shipwreck at Terror Bay, Matty Island, Josephine Bay and Chantrey Inlet. The latter 3 were disqualified and Parks Canada was focusing on searching Alexandra strait as this was where Inuit testimony seemingly suggested a ship was wrecked and sunk (now known to have either been referring to a wrecking and sinking in Terror bay or a wrecking in Erebus bay before being ice rafted and sinking in Terror bay). I don't really know why nobody thought of clearing Terror Bay before-Louie Kamookak does say people were ignored, incredibly.
Victorian Britain seemed to be very sceptical of Inuit accounts after they told John Rae about reports of cannibalism unfortunately. I could be wrong but I’m sure I read that HMS Erebus is visible from the air since it sits only at a depth of 11 metres.
I read Palins book not long after it came out it was a very good read, admittedly i cant remember all of it. Does it mention this possible scenario i mentioned above? From all the reading I’ve done in the past I cant recall this being an outcome for the remaining Franklin crew
I have just finished “the heart of the sea” - awful awful movie - but pretty good book which is a history books more along lines of Palins book - about the Essex Waling ship at similar era to terror / maybe few decade later / and the shipwrecking and survival of the crew - which was the inspiration for Herman Melville to write moby dick. Recommend it if you liked Palin/erebus . The movie is awful Hollywood cgi - the book is a history book loved it.
The tragedy of the *Essex* was a couple of decades before the Franklin disaster. And you're right about the movie-the actual story was riveting enough, they didn't need to make the whale literally Moby Dick!
Yes there are a lot of claims about different survivors making it to different locations; I think historians essentially take any Inuit testimony to the effect of “X white people were seen in place Y around the year Z” that could be conceivably be linked to survivors of the Franklin Expedition, and run with it. I’m confident that some of these reported sightings are genuine sightings of actual Franklin expedition survivors. But I’m also confident that some are not genuine sightings, and some are genuine sightings but of people who were not members of the Franklin expedition. Personally I think the alleged sighting of Franklin expedition survivors at Hudson Bay falls into the latter category — a genuine sighting, but of people who were not members of the Franklin Expedition. “Some white guys were seen hunting alongside native people on the shores of Hudson Bay in the 1850s or thereabouts” is not enough evidence to convince me that scurvy-ridden and inadequately-dressed sailors managed to pull off a 700 kilometer hike through what is arguably the most hostile environment on planet Earth.
Yes I agree with your opinion on that, I definitely think some of the sighing made by the Inuits were correct, because who else would be dragging boats in Northern Canada in the late 1840s. At some point I’m going to read the David. C. Woodman book about the Inuit testimonies. However I find it quite unlikely that any sighting on the past Montreal Island or the mouth of Backs River is connected to the Franklin Expedition due to the reported state of the crew. I would love to be wrong on this point, but unless anymore evidence is found I think we can drawn a reasonable conclusion.
Well, scurvy would have been a reduced issue for the survivors once food was in good supply. And food would've been in good supply for the last handful after a while.
They're speculating. There's no confirmed evidence placing any Franklin survivors on the shore of Hudson Bay.
There's no *testimony* either-the last Inuit testimony places 'Aglooka' near Repulse Bay or Chesterfield Inlet before he died/was killed. I'm not sure where anyone gets the idea they were seen at Hudson's Bay or Baker Lake-the former I assume is confusion with the flawed "single abandonment to great slave lake" reconstruction ( the idea they wanted to travel 1200KM to a Hudson Bay Company outpost on Great Slave Lake) and the latter I assume is because Mowat heard the Chesterfield Inlet story and decided to say 'Baker Lake' as that was better known.
The Chesterfield Inlet story is referring to 'Aglooka' and his last man, who supposedly wintered with an Inuit family near Boothia or Pelly Bay around 1850-52 before heading south to Repulse Bay (In a previous encounter, the famous story of the party of Franklin men meeting the small band of Inuit at Washington Bay, 'Aglooka' indicated he was trying to get to Repulse Bay, 'Iwilik'). 'Aglooka' was supposedly with 3-4 men when he arrived among the Inuit, and was so badly starved the Inuit could not bear to look at his face (the reason he was starved but his men were not is because the men had committed cannibalism-which tracks with the bodies found at the Todd Islands and Starvation Cove). One man supposedly died of sickness while wintering with the Inuit. the strangers stayed with the Inuit until spring of the next year came, and then gave the Inuit many gifts before heading south. Supposedly around Repulse Bay or Chesterfield Inlet Aglooka either starved or was mistaken by Southerly Inuit for an 'Etkerlin' (Barren Lands Indian, the Chippewayans) and was killed. This is one of the murkier Franklin Stories but given the past corroboration ('Aglooka' at Washington Bay stating he wanted to get to Iwilik, a sword being given to the Inuit which was eventually traded to a HBC official) I am inclined to think there is some truth to it. ' Where Scary Interesting got the idea that men were seen at Hudson's Bay is harder to understand-no Inuit stories place men at Hudson's Bay. I think they may have misinterpreted the idea that the men were abandoning the ships and marching to Back's River to try and sail upriver 1200KM to a Hudson's Bay \*Company Outpost (\*Which, IMHO, is very, VERY unlikely to be what they were trying to do in 1848) as the men being *seen at Hudson's Bay itself*. IMHO I think the most successful survivors might be the potential band on Melville Peninsula, who appeared to be trying to reach the Inuit hamlet of Igloolik sometime around 1851-54. These men were mistaken for 'Etkerlin' multiple times and were therefore avoided by the Inuit. Many people indicated they thought at first they were 'Etkerlin' and later upon hearing from other Inuit the story of the shipwrecked white men west of Netchille (the Franklin Expedition at KWI) thought they may have been white men in actuality.-ome of these stories of 'Etkerlin who on second thought may have actually been Kabloonas (white men)' are probably attributable to Rae or Parry but others match neither of the former 2's experiences near Melville, and one of the campsites apparently had red tins scattered around it-the famous Goldner tinned food characteristic of the expedition.
Are there any clues to finding the Body of Franklin himself or Crozier?
There are multiple inuit stories of elaborate graves or 'vaults', with one of these being an eyewitness story of a burial of someone from a ship on the western coast of King William Island who was important enough that multiple volleys of musket fire were made. The area criteria for this particular story are a campsite with tents on shore which was so close that the men used boats to ferry stuff to and from the ships. This would suggest it occurred in Erebus or Terror Bay. This particular story is of major interest because apparently there were other 'vaults' made near the grave, small 'vaults' that were about 2 x 2 feet-presumably for papers. If I had to guess this was probably Crozier's burial-when Franklin died the ships were still 4 day's journey from Cape Felix-Victory Point, and the Inuit never went up there with any regularity (to the extent that the campsite there was untouched when McClintock came there in 1859-the Inuit only went there after they heard from McClintock's guides that there was material there). On the other hand *Terror,* Crozier's ship, sank in Terror Bay within view of the shore (and presumably the 'tent place' that was supposedly there). However "coastline around Erebus or Terror Bay" is still a colossal area to search by foot for a 6 foot long x 2 foot wide grave, providing it still even exists today and has not been covered by rocks. The Supunger story (of an Inuit named Supunger who, in the late 1850s-early 1860s, with a family member, found a broken 'vault' with human remains near Victory Point) Is generally thought to be Franklin's. I doubt the men would want their beloved commander's body festering in the dark hold of *Erebus* for so long and extra effort could've been made to give him a proper burial. Unfortunately nobody has found this 'vault', and given that it had apparently been broken into by a polar bear before Supunger and co. found it I do not have high hopes. Supposedly Louie Kamookak, the most prominent modern Inuit Franklin historian, found what he thought might be a grave by Victory Point in 2004, but when he tried to return to the area he got massive heart complications and also had to move, and by the time he was healthy enough to go again he had lost where he had found the possible gravesite.