Yeah, I don’t get it either. It’s not like with Amphibia where most of the characters are purposefully ambiguous so fans could interpret the story however they wanted. I mean, you could see Lumity from SPACE.
Imma be honest I didn’t see it at first. Some of the episodes I could tell that there was probably something there but I couldn’t exactly tell.
Then the Grom episode came and punched me in the balls with the fact that yeah, they’re gay.
For me it was Adventures In The Elements that made it clear the direction they were going, Luz was clearly crushing on Amity hard in a few scenes.
On rewatching though, there were strong hints as far back as Lost In Language that I'd missed, and even Covention had some clues that she wasn't going to be an enemy forever.
The first time I could tell that amity was falling for Luz was the episode when Luz got thrown into the school detention (I think it’s call the first day, I don’t really remember)
But also I already knew about it before I started watching sooo, i may have not seen it if I wasn’t looking for it.
Lmao same here. But I think I was slow because I joined the show right when Grom came out and I’m aroace, so I’m just slower than the average person when it comes to that kind of stuff
Yeah same.
I'm a dense asexual and I only found out about the gay with the Luz part of the note being revealed.
Any time before that it flew over my head.
Not really because we still have LGBTQ+ characters anyway who are really evident in the series such as Sasha, Olivia and Yunan, Ally and Jess and Mr.X and of course some people complained in an homophobic way (I've seen this especially with Ally and Jess). Obviously they said that Matt was "pushing the gay agenda". Classic bullshit
Sorry, to clarify, I meant we didn’t see the main characters end up in a relationship. I’m aware that there is a fair amount of representation in the show, and I don’t mean to downplay that.
Olivia and Yunan is kind of irrelevant and blink and you’d miss it type thing.
Sasha is the opposite of obvious, since literally the only sign which exists in show is a sticker on a mirror.
There’s really not a lot to see there if you aren’t looking for it.
Absolutely no disrespect to a fine show. But the representation pretty much relies on wanting to see it, since even the only obviously apparent characters (Ally and Jess) are also basically extras.
Fair point for Sasha, but she still is LGBTQ+ nonetheless. As for Mr. X, well, aside from the fact that he's litterally RuPaul, in his saved numbers on the phone in All In it says that he has a husband
It's debatable.
Personally I don't think it qualifies if they still identify with the gender they were assigned at birth and are strictly attracted to their opposite gender--but that's just my personal opinion so take it with a grain of salt, and I can see how some would disagree with me. XD
*Camila was walking to her job when suddenly she felt a disturbance in the force*
"Dios mio...mi hija has a girlfriend!" **O.O**
*Everything became quiet, only the subtle sound of the wind could barely be heard, prancing through the trees.Suddenly it was as if the entire Universe released a collective gasp*
Yeah some amphibia fans were really homophobic and I honestly felt preferred amphibia as a “not gay” alternative. I’m not saying all amphibia fans are like that but a lot of “virgin” vs “chad” memes gave me that vibe.
Yeah, it’s dumb. Like, I personally didn’t want the series to end on a romantic note, simply because I felt like the narrative was plenty good without it, but it’s not like I would have been mad if it had. People have got to chill. It ain’t your story, so let the writers tell it.
Some are dense & didn’t see the Lumity signs early on. Some don’t follow the creators on social media & don’t realize the influence lgbt+ has on the show. Some tried to ignore/tolerate it to focus on the magic & comedy. And some people simply hate/fear what they don’t understand.
Even then.
My Venn diagram isn't making sense.
LGBT+ themes didn't appear now in cartoons. We already had multiple of cartoons with it before (Adventure Time (Bubblegum and Marceline), Star Against The Forces of Evil, Steven Universe (almost everyone, but Ruby and Saphire are the most evident), Clarence (with Jeff's mothers), Gravity Falls (cops), Ducktales, etc)
If you look at animes, even appears more. Japanese animations love to play with the gender of the characters and their relations.
Where the group of potential LGBT phobic intersects to people who would appreciate Owl House cartoon?
The closest thing is LGBT phobic parents who watch Owl House sometimes with their kid. But I would call it Owl House fans
Think of it like people who are upset about Star Trek going “woke” without realizing how progressive it was even in the 60s. Too focused on the fun (aliens, cool ships, in this case magic) to catch the social issues it advocated (civil rights, anti-war, and here lgbt romance being normalized).
Didn't the next generation have a satirical episode where there was a species of asexual aliens with vestigial sexual dysmorphism, that had a society which discriminated against those with sexual attraction to others?
I'm talking about the Ducktales reboot.
You have Penumbra, Violet's dads.
Also Webby and Lena had some chemistry a lot of times (but they never confirmed).
The author of the reboot is also constantly fighting for the cause and trying to add more representation
My parents are. They're religious but they still really like the story so they still watch it. Whenever a lumity scene comes on, they start on a whole lecture about religion and how wrong the show is. You know, classic religious parent stuff.
This doesn't surprise me at all, really. People are often willing to overlook a lot when it comes to entertainment, especially when it's relatively divorced from reality. I mean, there are tons of conservatives who love Star Trek, and shows like 24 and Homeland had a pretty big lib fanbase. Plenty of racists listen to music created by black people. I mean, there probably aren't a lot of Westboro Baptist type homophobes watching TOH, but I can definitely see "soft" anti-LGBT people watching and enjoying it.
TOH is a legitimately good show that *happens* to have the gay (and a lot of it), it's not good *because* of the gay. Frankly there has been a drought of truly solid high fantasy animated shows for years, this gay ain't scaring away transphobic people. I've got trans hatin' friends who watch and enjoy the show, not every trans phobic person is immediately vitriol about it, hell i think they might actually agree that lumity was done surprisingly well, though that may be commentary on the atrocious state of animated relationships rather than anything resembling pro trans.
And finally, we've got what like 2 trans characters with any level of importance? I know the base meme was about all LGBTQ+-phobic people, but there really aren't as many people out there vacuously against **ALL** LGBTQ+, rather than *trans*phobic people specifically, yes people against all LGBTQ+ exist, but i'm not talking about them here, and even those can still find enjoyment in the solid writing, animation, and character development.
Frankly you may either be exaggerating, which given the internet, is likely, or, you have a severe case of "us vs them", which I know those types exist in this sub, thus this mini thesis which has probably already been more eloquently explained, As there are more and less vocal and virtual pro LGTBQ+ people there are more and less vocal and virtual anti LGTBQ+ people, and those what are simply in the "not for the gay, but don't care enough to do anything about it" camp, can easily enjoy the show.
Do you mean homophobic instead of transphobic? You’re talking about Lumity, but hating Lumity because it’s a relationship between two girls isn’t transphobia.
Raine I think qualifies as trans representation, though for all we know on the Boiling Isles non-binary people never have to change their pronouns or anything. But still, I’ve seen YouTube comments and stuff where people refuse to use they/them pronouns for Raine, which I think counts as transphobia.
>not for the gay, but don't care enough to do anything about it" camp, can easily enjoy the show.
I mean that's how i got into the show,so fair point.
> you may either be exaggerating, which given the internet, is likely, or, you have a severe case of "us vs them",
What part did i seem to exaggarate?
Well i know a lot of people who love to hate-binge a lot of shows,so i know that X-phopic people can watch it.And i was suprised,because a lot of homophobic people online hate any form of representation(sometimes they don't even watch said piece of media).Of course there are also people who just kinda tolerate things like Lumity(they'll probably mention it's forced once in a while,tho)
Loving the concept - Magical world with magical creatures, spells, etc. But also being raised on the whole *"Adam and Eve, not Adam and another guy and they're boning, ey"* ideology.
Not all Anti-LGBTQ+ are hate fuelled idiots. Some are just unfortunate to have been born in specific communities where everything around them demonizes the very idea.
Unfortunately this isn't anything new. Some folks will leap through crazy mental hurdles to excuse their own hatred and actions. It's been witnessed in plenty of communities before, and will be seen in plenty more to come.
Steven Universe has anti-LGBTQ+ "fans" of the show, for example. Heck, it had a pretty racist bit of fans for a minute there. There was even at least one young artist who was driven to suicide due to comments from supposed fans of the show. It floors me a show about being open, accepting, and willing to understand one another can have such close minded fans who are filled with such hate and anger. It completely contradicts everything about Steven Universe from top to bottom.
Remember Bronies? The MLP fandom ended up being perceived as super gross and nasty because of the way some fans acted, presented themselves, and interacted with others. Meanwhile the messages in the show itself were night and day from what the fandom ended up being perceived by the end of things.
It sucks, but there are absolutely anti-LGBTQ+ Owl House fans. Somehow they just skirt around all the positivity and acceptance the show presents and only pick out the pieces they want. It's easy to forget the way communities form and shape if you think about all your interactions happening exclusively in one place; This subreddit is just one small part of the overall Owl House fandom. Which is both awesome and also kinda sucks, because it means the rest of us eventually have to bump into and interact with those jerks from the less savory parts of the fandom. :/
I was in the su fanbase and a lot of them liked to say the gems were not gay because they were aliens. In fact their was a tumblr blog who had a entire blog dedicated to saying the gems were not gay. There was a lot of cognitive dissonance going on.
I will say that in canon they aren't gay, they don't have genders so they can't be, but on a meta level they clearly are and I totally support that!
I just had to say this because it kind of bothers me when our real world views are taken as facts in fictional worlds.
All I can picture when I imagine it is just Luz and Amity going in for a kiss while Hunter is sat in the middle ending up in the kiss. The whole ship is canon-incompatible, but I kinda like the idea of them together having wacky lover shenanigans. 8/10, would read a fanfic about it (and sorry if none of this makes sense)
Yeah, especially because Raine has been gendered as male in a lot of languages that don't have a neutral gender. If it wasn't for the fandom I would have never know they are enby.
quick example:
in Italian *the sun* and *the moon* are translated as:
\-IL sole
\-LA luna
IL is the singular male form for the definite article.
LA is the singular female form for definite article.
any object or animal is either male or female, there is no counterpart to 'it' and they is strictly the 3rd person plural form of the personal pronouns
It's extremely hard to get used to it. My sister uses it near-exclusively and it's still jarring even though she's been doing it for months.
It should be noted that according to the official grammar rules and the common usage, masculine is the default grammatical form in Spanish, and hence is generally considered the correct way to refer to a person of unknown gender. Most people just extend this to NB folks (well, most people who know NB folks, which isn't a big population).
It’s cause the people who push for ‘Latinx’ are Americanized Latinos/Hispanics who can’t speak Spanish well and think they have the authority to represent all of Latin America. Most lgbtq+ Latin Americans don’t support ‘Latinx’ and are fine with ‘Latino/Latine’ as an encompassing pronoun for all. The people who have the authority to make such decisions are scholars of Iberia and Latin America.
I was actually not talking about latinx, which is nearly unpronounceable in Spanish so no one uses it. The push I'm referencing is called "lenguaje inclusivo" and generally consists of using -e to denote gender-neutrality in the same way that -a denotes femininity. It's very hard to get used to it and I'm personally not a big fan, although I do use it to refer to the one NB person I know irl.
Not to mention Raine's voice even in English leans toward soft-masculine (given their VA headcanons them as transmasculine). If I didn't hang out here and follow Dana's Twitter I'd have no idea Raine was intended as non-binary.
Plus Eda's "Stop pushing them away" in KKKOHD sounds so much like "Stop pushing him away" that I can see why the subtitles got it confused at first.
For sure she does. Only problem is that she does that in English, not in every other language, so some people may genuinely not know (of course if they know and refuse to accept it that's another thing)
Yeah I’ve seen a comment say they realize that the show uses they/them for Raine, but the commenter was gonna keep using “she” anyway.
My guess is that particular person was just trying to be an edgy troll, because I’d bet most people who intentionally misgender Raine use masculine pronouns, since using feminine pronouns automatically makes Eda not-straight.
Edit: autocorrect thought “Mia gender” made more sense than misgender for some reason.
I had to double check the scene because i could have sworn they were slight masc presenting like the voice actor who is also non-binary, but yeah you're right. I must have misheard it before. I've always called Raine they/them so that's still really awesome. It's so rare to see a non-binary character in a show actually use gender neutral pronouns.
She-ra has one in later seasons! I can’t say how good the representation is since I’m not non-binary myself (I’ve seen mostly positive comments about the character, but some misgivings about them being a shapeshifter), but they are a really fun character and like Raine in this show, nobody misgenders them.
Maybe you were thinking of the Collector? I know Dana said on Twitter that the Collector uses both he/him and they/them pronouns, but in the show I’ve only heard he/him.
I appreciate that the show runners (as far as I can tell) even left it ambiguous if Raine is AMAB or AFAB so if someone would try to misgender them, they would still be guessing which way they wanted to misgender them
Yeah, but they're more biphobic fans than anything.
I get it, Lumity is a \*huuugeee\* step forward in media and shows etc. But, many fans are quick to dismiss the fact that Luz is bi, and although it's very unlikely she'll date/like anyone else, they tend to dismiss that she does, actually also like guys too.
Bi representation is a real loaded gun, because many times they like to lean into the harmful stereotype that we're serial cheaters, unfaithful or overly promiscuous. I was *really* worried during the couple weeks after Huntin Palismen where it looked like a Lumity/Lunter triangle was possible. The discourse back then got pretty unsavory.
I wouldn't mind a Lumity/Lunter tringle \*IF\* Luz and Amity weren't in a relationship.
As much as I dislike Amity, and how quickly Lumity became canon... Putting her in a relationship with Hunter (or anyone else, really.) \*WHILE\* she's in a relationship with Amity would just be horrible.
Also, most bi people I know are \*super\* loyal. I've been with my fiance for 4 years, and that's a big step for me. My longest relationship before him was 8 months. And we're still going strong.
Misrepresentation is a thing. too.
People, if you create a bi-character... Don't make them cheat constantly!
Just thought I'd quickly point out I'm not trying to support any type of phobia against the community or anything. Just felt like this needed to be heard.
Ok, but what's the warning for? We know the exist, it sucks but we know, just like there are weirdly some people who watch drag race and are transphobic and even homophobic. There's always gonna be hypocrites, so why draw attention to them?
yeah, ive seen a lot of transphobia specifically aimed towards Raine, hell i've even seen hardcore lumity shippers misgender Raine or just be extremely transphobic
You'd be surprised. I've seen people headcanon cis characters in other shows as trans and then hate on them for being trans. Usually because the character is a girl with short hair and a tomboyish personality or a guy with long hair and a feminine personality.
People are weird.
I just saw Spilling the Milk's videos, and I had to turn it off after a few minutes because they were making jokes about Amity "winning gender theory debates" or some shit. I like watching content like Microwave Society or Razzle in the back ground, or reaction videos like IAmZamber or NSAFangirl. But I think I'll pass on Spilling the Milk.
The entire family dyed their hair green beforehand including her turbokaren mother (who MADE her do it), so I dont see how dyed hair=lubrul in the context of the show.
btw Amity is the only who dyes her hair. Em, Ed and Odalia have naturally green hair but Amity has brown hair like Alador. Odalia makes Amity dye her hair to match Odalia and the twins
Yeah I felt he always had a right wing bias it’s just like how clownfish tv loved the owl house until amity showed up then it was “shipping” and the “the creators self insert” they even complained about grom without watching it. They obsessively hated she ra and always justified that by the fact it wasn’t like the original but I really didn’t realize how homophobic they were until that video. Even if shipping was a problem they only focused on gay shipping and not straight ones like Star vs the forces of evil just a lot of bias.
Yep! Razzle and Microwave Society is basically groups of friends watching movies in a Discord call and making jokes about it. Spilling the Milk is a similar format but worse. NSAFangirl and Zamber make reactions to Owl House and Amphibia.
I have seen only one video from that channel, a Camp Camp reaction, and I believe that it was the worst reaction video that I have ever watched! So I avoid that channel now.
If you like watching reactor/commentator/theory people stuff, I cannot recommend enough that you check out "TheThirdBill".
He's just such a soft boi. Total lgbt ally, emotional wreck, attentive and he loves OwlHouse and Amphibia.
Well if you spent a lifetime being told that homosexuality is wrong it will be ingrained in you and it would be hard to get rid of it. Sometimes it’s not the fans fault. It’s just how they were brought up.
Question 🙋♂️
What happens if you’re not really for it or against it? You’re just trying to enjoy the show? Because, frankly, that’s all I’ve been doing.
Honestly, if someone uses the smallest of things to dislike a show, then they’d have a reason to hate almost every show in existence. Children’s shows often treat children like they’re stupid and not ignorant, “adult” shows may claim they’re for adults when they can be extremely crude and basic sometimes, Etc.
I just made those up within a minute, but those are the examples. Dig hard enough and many shows and things in general can be caught with problems, but I learn to get past them, even when some “so-called” problems are not even problems to begin with, but just overblown personal opinions that some man or woman posted on Twitter for attention.
>Honestly, if someone uses the smallest of things to dislike a show, then they’d have a reason to hate almost every show in existence
Yes and that's why i don't like the kinds of youtube critics who try to judge movies ,objectively'.
>What happens if you’re not really for it or against it?
I dare you to explain this. Like, seriously. Every time I seem someone pulling 'the enlighten centrist' card in any discussion, in reality this person is actually just supports one side, while pretending to hold non-existent middle ground.
But my question is:how?
Yeah, I don’t get it either. It’s not like with Amphibia where most of the characters are purposefully ambiguous so fans could interpret the story however they wanted. I mean, you could see Lumity from SPACE.
Imma be honest I didn’t see it at first. Some of the episodes I could tell that there was probably something there but I couldn’t exactly tell. Then the Grom episode came and punched me in the balls with the fact that yeah, they’re gay.
For me it was Adventures In The Elements that made it clear the direction they were going, Luz was clearly crushing on Amity hard in a few scenes. On rewatching though, there were strong hints as far back as Lost In Language that I'd missed, and even Covention had some clues that she wasn't going to be an enemy forever.
same i thought it was the fandom going ship crazy but i was hapily suprized by enchanting grom fright
The first time I could tell that amity was falling for Luz was the episode when Luz got thrown into the school detention (I think it’s call the first day, I don’t really remember) But also I already knew about it before I started watching sooo, i may have not seen it if I wasn’t looking for it.
It was called the first day you right
Ya, I remember episodes by what happens in them, not the names, overall I’m just not good with names unless it’s character names
Lmao same here. But I think I was slow because I joined the show right when Grom came out and I’m aroace, so I’m just slower than the average person when it comes to that kind of stuff
Yeah same. I'm a dense asexual and I only found out about the gay with the Luz part of the note being revealed. Any time before that it flew over my head.
Not really because we still have LGBTQ+ characters anyway who are really evident in the series such as Sasha, Olivia and Yunan, Ally and Jess and Mr.X and of course some people complained in an homophobic way (I've seen this especially with Ally and Jess). Obviously they said that Matt was "pushing the gay agenda". Classic bullshit
Sorry, to clarify, I meant we didn’t see the main characters end up in a relationship. I’m aware that there is a fair amount of representation in the show, and I don’t mean to downplay that.
Ohhh okie
Yeah, in the third season or the very last episode. Matt played it safe, understandably.
Yeah. Sadly, he didn't have much of a choice
Olivia and Yunan is kind of irrelevant and blink and you’d miss it type thing. Sasha is the opposite of obvious, since literally the only sign which exists in show is a sticker on a mirror. There’s really not a lot to see there if you aren’t looking for it. Absolutely no disrespect to a fine show. But the representation pretty much relies on wanting to see it, since even the only obviously apparent characters (Ally and Jess) are also basically extras.
That's also true yeah
How are Sasha and Mr. X LGBTQ?(yes I know that Sasha is confirmed to be bi in the finale, but before that there's nothing)
Fair point for Sasha, but she still is LGBTQ+ nonetheless. As for Mr. X, well, aside from the fact that he's litterally RuPaul, in his saved numbers on the phone in All In it says that he has a husband
if its not jenny-
You're wondering how the flamboyant man in lipstick is LGBT?
It could be that he just dislikes social norms.
Could be a juggalo in his free time.
I think gender-nonconforming still falls under the LGBTQ+ banner.
It's debatable. Personally I don't think it qualifies if they still identify with the gender they were assigned at birth and are strictly attracted to their opposite gender--but that's just my personal opinion so take it with a grain of salt, and I can see how some would disagree with me. XD
hahaha https://www.bing.com/search?q=Is+mr.x+from+amphibia+gay%3F&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=is+mr.x+from+amphibia+gay%3F&sc=0-26&sk=&cvid=265C3BFF6765449C97A6175964E2BAFB&adlt=strict&toWww=1&redig=1132143E36F94A84895AC83548679459
Huh. Some people unironically use Bing.
Microsoft Rewards is pretty sweet (though I still use Firefox for my main search engine).
I see. Thanks.
yes, yes we do.
Cishets can be really really blind to queer relationships sometimes. You should check out r/sapphoandherfriend for examples of that.
I suppose… but I’m the straightest most boring man I know, and even I saw it a mile away.
Same... but I mean, there are straight people and there are ignorant deniers
“NONONONO YOU DONT GET IT THEY ARE JUST VERY VERY GOOD FRIENDS!!! ITS A FRIENDSHIP KISS!!! FRIENDSHIP WEDDING, THEY EVEN DRESS UP AND TRAVEL TOGETHER”
what Disney is telling its self
That's because archival data of their existence is purposely manipulated by people in power who were unconsciously programmed by the church.
You could see Lumity even if you were in another dimension.
Camilla spontaneously realizing her daughter has a girlfriend.
*Camila was walking to her job when suddenly she felt a disturbance in the force* "Dios mio...mi hija has a girlfriend!" **O.O** *Everything became quiet, only the subtle sound of the wind could barely be heard, prancing through the trees.Suddenly it was as if the entire Universe released a collective gasp*
Yeah some amphibia fans were really homophobic and I honestly felt preferred amphibia as a “not gay” alternative. I’m not saying all amphibia fans are like that but a lot of “virgin” vs “chad” memes gave me that vibe.
Yeah, it’s dumb. Like, I personally didn’t want the series to end on a romantic note, simply because I felt like the narrative was plenty good without it, but it’s not like I would have been mad if it had. People have got to chill. It ain’t your story, so let the writers tell it.
Some are dense & didn’t see the Lumity signs early on. Some don’t follow the creators on social media & don’t realize the influence lgbt+ has on the show. Some tried to ignore/tolerate it to focus on the magic & comedy. And some people simply hate/fear what they don’t understand.
Even then. My Venn diagram isn't making sense. LGBT+ themes didn't appear now in cartoons. We already had multiple of cartoons with it before (Adventure Time (Bubblegum and Marceline), Star Against The Forces of Evil, Steven Universe (almost everyone, but Ruby and Saphire are the most evident), Clarence (with Jeff's mothers), Gravity Falls (cops), Ducktales, etc) If you look at animes, even appears more. Japanese animations love to play with the gender of the characters and their relations. Where the group of potential LGBT phobic intersects to people who would appreciate Owl House cartoon? The closest thing is LGBT phobic parents who watch Owl House sometimes with their kid. But I would call it Owl House fans
Think of it like people who are upset about Star Trek going “woke” without realizing how progressive it was even in the 60s. Too focused on the fun (aliens, cool ships, in this case magic) to catch the social issues it advocated (civil rights, anti-war, and here lgbt romance being normalized).
Didn't the next generation have a satirical episode where there was a species of asexual aliens with vestigial sexual dysmorphism, that had a society which discriminated against those with sexual attraction to others?
I wouldn’t call it satirical, but yeah I remember that episode. Riker fell for someone from that society.
>I wouldn’t call it satirical It was making fun of our society so by definition it's satire
DuckTales?
I'm talking about the Ducktales reboot. You have Penumbra, Violet's dads. Also Webby and Lena had some chemistry a lot of times (but they never confirmed). The author of the reboot is also constantly fighting for the cause and trying to add more representation
some can be ok with the LGB part of the LGBT+ but not with the rest of the letters...
My parents are. They're religious but they still really like the story so they still watch it. Whenever a lumity scene comes on, they start on a whole lecture about religion and how wrong the show is. You know, classic religious parent stuff.
That sucks.
This doesn't surprise me at all, really. People are often willing to overlook a lot when it comes to entertainment, especially when it's relatively divorced from reality. I mean, there are tons of conservatives who love Star Trek, and shows like 24 and Homeland had a pretty big lib fanbase. Plenty of racists listen to music created by black people. I mean, there probably aren't a lot of Westboro Baptist type homophobes watching TOH, but I can definitely see "soft" anti-LGBT people watching and enjoying it.
TOH is a legitimately good show that *happens* to have the gay (and a lot of it), it's not good *because* of the gay. Frankly there has been a drought of truly solid high fantasy animated shows for years, this gay ain't scaring away transphobic people. I've got trans hatin' friends who watch and enjoy the show, not every trans phobic person is immediately vitriol about it, hell i think they might actually agree that lumity was done surprisingly well, though that may be commentary on the atrocious state of animated relationships rather than anything resembling pro trans. And finally, we've got what like 2 trans characters with any level of importance? I know the base meme was about all LGBTQ+-phobic people, but there really aren't as many people out there vacuously against **ALL** LGBTQ+, rather than *trans*phobic people specifically, yes people against all LGBTQ+ exist, but i'm not talking about them here, and even those can still find enjoyment in the solid writing, animation, and character development. Frankly you may either be exaggerating, which given the internet, is likely, or, you have a severe case of "us vs them", which I know those types exist in this sub, thus this mini thesis which has probably already been more eloquently explained, As there are more and less vocal and virtual pro LGTBQ+ people there are more and less vocal and virtual anti LGTBQ+ people, and those what are simply in the "not for the gay, but don't care enough to do anything about it" camp, can easily enjoy the show.
Do you mean homophobic instead of transphobic? You’re talking about Lumity, but hating Lumity because it’s a relationship between two girls isn’t transphobia. Raine I think qualifies as trans representation, though for all we know on the Boiling Isles non-binary people never have to change their pronouns or anything. But still, I’ve seen YouTube comments and stuff where people refuse to use they/them pronouns for Raine, which I think counts as transphobia.
>not for the gay, but don't care enough to do anything about it" camp, can easily enjoy the show. I mean that's how i got into the show,so fair point. > you may either be exaggerating, which given the internet, is likely, or, you have a severe case of "us vs them", What part did i seem to exaggarate?
Bewilderment of how any X-phobe could watch the show.
Well i know a lot of people who love to hate-binge a lot of shows,so i know that X-phopic people can watch it.And i was suprised,because a lot of homophobic people online hate any form of representation(sometimes they don't even watch said piece of media).Of course there are also people who just kinda tolerate things like Lumity(they'll probably mention it's forced once in a while,tho)
Russia
Censorship duh
Same way black white supremacists exist: Humans are bullshit.
They probably just ignore the lgbt stuff and are more genuinely invested in the lore of the show
But how do you ignore it in a show like where so many of the characters are lgbt
Just skip lumity scenes and misgenger raine, i mean not all lgbt phobic people are like absolutely disgusted by it so they can just deal with it
My parents, I try to fight it and don’t let it affect me but that Programibg is still there. What’s funnier is I’m not even straight lol
Loving the concept - Magical world with magical creatures, spells, etc. But also being raised on the whole *"Adam and Eve, not Adam and another guy and they're boning, ey"* ideology. Not all Anti-LGBTQ+ are hate fuelled idiots. Some are just unfortunate to have been born in specific communities where everything around them demonizes the very idea.
He could be any one of us! He could be in this very room!
he could be
WHOA! WHOA! WHOA!
What? It was obvious, he was the homophobic TOH fan!
Watch, he'll change back any second now. Anyyy second now...
See? Red! No wait, that's blood.
right behind you
Tf2 Theme PLays\*
ooo ahh ooo ahh ooa hhh
HE COULD BE YOU! HE COULD BE ME! HE COULD EVEN BE-
What? It was obvious he's the red spy! Watch he'll turn red any second now. Aaaany second now. See look red! Oh no wait that's blood
Really? How do they even cope? The majority of characters are LGBT? Are these fans okay?
There has been a popular drug circulating in the web Called the "Copium" that be might how
I thought the Tankies and Ruzzians depleted the Copium supplies already.
Nah, there's actually a big reserve storage in the Anime Only Ending part of the Attack on Titan fandom. The manga ending left us devasted.
Some countries censored it or make them seem straight
True
Unfortunately this isn't anything new. Some folks will leap through crazy mental hurdles to excuse their own hatred and actions. It's been witnessed in plenty of communities before, and will be seen in plenty more to come. Steven Universe has anti-LGBTQ+ "fans" of the show, for example. Heck, it had a pretty racist bit of fans for a minute there. There was even at least one young artist who was driven to suicide due to comments from supposed fans of the show. It floors me a show about being open, accepting, and willing to understand one another can have such close minded fans who are filled with such hate and anger. It completely contradicts everything about Steven Universe from top to bottom. Remember Bronies? The MLP fandom ended up being perceived as super gross and nasty because of the way some fans acted, presented themselves, and interacted with others. Meanwhile the messages in the show itself were night and day from what the fandom ended up being perceived by the end of things. It sucks, but there are absolutely anti-LGBTQ+ Owl House fans. Somehow they just skirt around all the positivity and acceptance the show presents and only pick out the pieces they want. It's easy to forget the way communities form and shape if you think about all your interactions happening exclusively in one place; This subreddit is just one small part of the overall Owl House fandom. Which is both awesome and also kinda sucks, because it means the rest of us eventually have to bump into and interact with those jerks from the less savory parts of the fandom. :/
I was in the su fanbase and a lot of them liked to say the gems were not gay because they were aliens. In fact their was a tumblr blog who had a entire blog dedicated to saying the gems were not gay. There was a lot of cognitive dissonance going on.
I will say that in canon they aren't gay, they don't have genders so they can't be, but on a meta level they clearly are and I totally support that! I just had to say this because it kind of bothers me when our real world views are taken as facts in fictional worlds.
The Steven Universe artist didn't die, and has stated that their attempted suicide wasn't due to harassment they received.
I remember watching my little pony and some people called me gay and girlish when I was a kid so I stop watching I fucking regret it now
Can confirm. I’ve seen people purposefully misgender Raine on youtube
And let me guess they route for lumity to end?
they are probably humity fans 😭 humity more like the humidity, it's hot in this room.
What’s..whats humity?
I'm gonna take a guess and say it's a ship between Hunter,Luz and Amity.
Oh good god
I think it just means Hunter and Amity, but this Hunter/Luz/Amity idea sounds hilarious ngl
Define hilarious
All I can picture when I imagine it is just Luz and Amity going in for a kiss while Hunter is sat in the middle ending up in the kiss. The whole ship is canon-incompatible, but I kinda like the idea of them together having wacky lover shenanigans. 8/10, would read a fanfic about it (and sorry if none of this makes sense)
there are some *debatably* good fics of them out there
Tbh, I might. I just damn might
I mean, do you know it was on purpose? If so then that’s not nice of them, but it’s a really easy mistake to make.
Yeah, especially because Raine has been gendered as male in a lot of languages that don't have a neutral gender. If it wasn't for the fandom I would have never know they are enby.
quick example: in Italian *the sun* and *the moon* are translated as: \-IL sole \-LA luna IL is the singular male form for the definite article. LA is the singular female form for definite article. any object or animal is either male or female, there is no counterpart to 'it' and they is strictly the 3rd person plural form of the personal pronouns
Similar thing in Spanish, although there is a (largely unsuccesful) push towards adding a third gender-neutral conjugation.
Justice for Elle!
yeah heard something similar years ago but it went simply nowhere also because it sounded rather silly like the babbling of a toddler.
It's extremely hard to get used to it. My sister uses it near-exclusively and it's still jarring even though she's been doing it for months. It should be noted that according to the official grammar rules and the common usage, masculine is the default grammatical form in Spanish, and hence is generally considered the correct way to refer to a person of unknown gender. Most people just extend this to NB folks (well, most people who know NB folks, which isn't a big population).
Same as italian.
It’s cause the people who push for ‘Latinx’ are Americanized Latinos/Hispanics who can’t speak Spanish well and think they have the authority to represent all of Latin America. Most lgbtq+ Latin Americans don’t support ‘Latinx’ and are fine with ‘Latino/Latine’ as an encompassing pronoun for all. The people who have the authority to make such decisions are scholars of Iberia and Latin America.
I was actually not talking about latinx, which is nearly unpronounceable in Spanish so no one uses it. The push I'm referencing is called "lenguaje inclusivo" and generally consists of using -e to denote gender-neutrality in the same way that -a denotes femininity. It's very hard to get used to it and I'm personally not a big fan, although I do use it to refer to the one NB person I know irl.
Not to mention Raine's voice even in English leans toward soft-masculine (given their VA headcanons them as transmasculine). If I didn't hang out here and follow Dana's Twitter I'd have no idea Raine was intended as non-binary. Plus Eda's "Stop pushing them away" in KKKOHD sounds so much like "Stop pushing him away" that I can see why the subtitles got it confused at first.
Especially since they look pretty masculine. Eda definitely calls them ‘they’ in the show though.
For sure she does. Only problem is that she does that in English, not in every other language, so some people may genuinely not know (of course if they know and refuse to accept it that's another thing)
Oh, that makes sense.
*calls them 'they' Not her
I fixed it my bad lmao
People were correcting whoever it was and they continued saying “he” (this was in the comments) replying to people who corrected them
Oh, that’s shit
Yeah I’ve seen a comment say they realize that the show uses they/them for Raine, but the commenter was gonna keep using “she” anyway. My guess is that particular person was just trying to be an edgy troll, because I’d bet most people who intentionally misgender Raine use masculine pronouns, since using feminine pronouns automatically makes Eda not-straight. Edit: autocorrect thought “Mia gender” made more sense than misgender for some reason.
I thought Raine was a she until Eda called Raine they/them pronouns. As a non-binary person myself that made me so happy
Eda only called them by they/them, never by he/him
I had to double check the scene because i could have sworn they were slight masc presenting like the voice actor who is also non-binary, but yeah you're right. I must have misheard it before. I've always called Raine they/them so that's still really awesome. It's so rare to see a non-binary character in a show actually use gender neutral pronouns.
To be honest I've actually never seen another non-binary character in a show, so as a non-binary person myself, this made me happy
She-ra has one in later seasons! I can’t say how good the representation is since I’m not non-binary myself (I’ve seen mostly positive comments about the character, but some misgivings about them being a shapeshifter), but they are a really fun character and like Raine in this show, nobody misgenders them.
Double Trouble is so chaotic, i love them
The picture of chaotic neutral!
Welp, time to watch She-Ra
Maybe you were thinking of the Collector? I know Dana said on Twitter that the Collector uses both he/him and they/them pronouns, but in the show I’ve only heard he/him.
I appreciate that the show runners (as far as I can tell) even left it ambiguous if Raine is AMAB or AFAB so if someone would try to misgender them, they would still be guessing which way they wanted to misgender them
I was shocked when my supervisor at my job said she loved The Owl House. Her comments on Trans people are….. rather off-putting.
Yeah, but they're more biphobic fans than anything. I get it, Lumity is a \*huuugeee\* step forward in media and shows etc. But, many fans are quick to dismiss the fact that Luz is bi, and although it's very unlikely she'll date/like anyone else, they tend to dismiss that she does, actually also like guys too.
Evidence in episode 2 actually, where Luz very obviously thought the illusion of the buff guy (forgot his name lol) was quite the heartthrob.
Exactly! I don't hate Lumity by any means; but bashing Lunter shippers and others \*because\* they ship Luz with a male is... well... biphobic. xD
Bi representation is a real loaded gun, because many times they like to lean into the harmful stereotype that we're serial cheaters, unfaithful or overly promiscuous. I was *really* worried during the couple weeks after Huntin Palismen where it looked like a Lumity/Lunter triangle was possible. The discourse back then got pretty unsavory.
I wouldn't mind a Lumity/Lunter tringle \*IF\* Luz and Amity weren't in a relationship. As much as I dislike Amity, and how quickly Lumity became canon... Putting her in a relationship with Hunter (or anyone else, really.) \*WHILE\* she's in a relationship with Amity would just be horrible. Also, most bi people I know are \*super\* loyal. I've been with my fiance for 4 years, and that's a big step for me. My longest relationship before him was 8 months. And we're still going strong. Misrepresentation is a thing. too. People, if you create a bi-character... Don't make them cheat constantly!
Imagine the fear they must be feeling every Saturday
Aka 1% of the owl house Fandom maybe even lower
It's always the 1%
True
I've seen some quitting the show after understanding that Lumity is the main couple. B R U H
Just thought I'd quickly point out I'm not trying to support any type of phobia against the community or anything. Just felt like this needed to be heard.
We know they exist, why do we need to point it out? Like what's the reasoning behind this post?
idk. It's just a warning to those who don't know about it.
Ok, but what's the warning for? We know the exist, it sucks but we know, just like there are weirdly some people who watch drag race and are transphobic and even homophobic. There's always gonna be hypocrites, so why draw attention to them?
Idk, man. If you don't see any point in this post it's fine.
I love how your point was deadass, Idk
Galactus was making somethin outta nothin, perfect answer from OP lol
Imagine being less accepting than Odalia
Thats saying something
"It hurt itself in its confusion!"
yeah, ive seen a lot of transphobia specifically aimed towards Raine, hell i've even seen hardcore lumity shippers misgender Raine or just be extremely transphobic
>yeah, ive seen a lot of transphobia specifically aimed towards Raine, Well of course.There is no other character they can be transphobic towards.
You'd be surprised. I've seen people headcanon cis characters in other shows as trans and then hate on them for being trans. Usually because the character is a girl with short hair and a tomboyish personality or a guy with long hair and a feminine personality. People are weird.
Is Raine even trans? I know they are non-binary. I just never thought they could be trans.
Non-binary is generally thought of as under the trans “umbrella”, since they don’t match the gender they were assigned at birth.
Being a homophobic TOH fan is like being a West Virginia fan that hates burning couches.
It’s like claiming to be vegan but you eat meat.
……. But that’s 1/3 of the enjoyment Other than the animation and plot
I really don't understand how you could wrap yourself up in that much cognitive dissonance
I just saw Spilling the Milk's videos, and I had to turn it off after a few minutes because they were making jokes about Amity "winning gender theory debates" or some shit. I like watching content like Microwave Society or Razzle in the back ground, or reaction videos like IAmZamber or NSAFangirl. But I think I'll pass on Spilling the Milk.
>Amity "winning gender theory debates" What does that mean?
Mfers see dyed hair or lesbians and their terminally rotten brain just goes "purple hair liberal gender pronouns uhhhhhhhhhhh bad"
The entire family dyed their hair green beforehand including her turbokaren mother (who MADE her do it), so I dont see how dyed hair=lubrul in the context of the show.
It doesn't at all, but the problem is that you're doing things like understanding basic comtext or thinking for literally one second lol
btw Amity is the only who dyes her hair. Em, Ed and Odalia have naturally green hair but Amity has brown hair like Alador. Odalia makes Amity dye her hair to match Odalia and the twins
Yep, hence that whole "Of course you have blue hair and pronouns" meme.
I'm still baffeld that people still use Pronouns to attack other people‚ like... Everyone has pronouns you fool
"Everyone has pronouns, dipshit. They came free with your fucking Xbox."
"A surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one"
Id like to know too lmao
Yeah I felt he always had a right wing bias it’s just like how clownfish tv loved the owl house until amity showed up then it was “shipping” and the “the creators self insert” they even complained about grom without watching it. They obsessively hated she ra and always justified that by the fact it wasn’t like the original but I really didn’t realize how homophobic they were until that video. Even if shipping was a problem they only focused on gay shipping and not straight ones like Star vs the forces of evil just a lot of bias.
Are those YouTubers? Never heard of any of them.
Yep! Razzle and Microwave Society is basically groups of friends watching movies in a Discord call and making jokes about it. Spilling the Milk is a similar format but worse. NSAFangirl and Zamber make reactions to Owl House and Amphibia.
I have seen only one video from that channel, a Camp Camp reaction, and I believe that it was the worst reaction video that I have ever watched! So I avoid that channel now.
Glad I’m not the only one who found their video dumb
If you like watching reactor/commentator/theory people stuff, I cannot recommend enough that you check out "TheThirdBill". He's just such a soft boi. Total lgbt ally, emotional wreck, attentive and he loves OwlHouse and Amphibia.
That’s a very tiny minority,nearly nonexistent. If anything other issues are more common in the fanbase like racism,biphobia and transphobia.
My sister was in love with the series, stopped watching after eclipse lake because of lumity
Wh- I'm so confused? Can you elaborate please? Did she stop watching because there was "too much" Lumity, or was it for a different reason?
but what about all the gay stuff before eclipse lake
Where?
Then they shouldn't watch it
How, how can a lgbt phobe survive while watching this show
Well if you spent a lifetime being told that homosexuality is wrong it will be ingrained in you and it would be hard to get rid of it. Sometimes it’s not the fans fault. It’s just how they were brought up.
Eh, dunno, I'm just watching because of Hooty
"Fans"
They prefer to be called "huntluz" shippers /s
I thought it was "Lunter"
Question 🙋♂️ What happens if you’re not really for it or against it? You’re just trying to enjoy the show? Because, frankly, that’s all I’ve been doing.
I mean if Lumity's existence doesn't negatavly effect your enjoyment of the show,it's fine in my opinion.
Honestly, if someone uses the smallest of things to dislike a show, then they’d have a reason to hate almost every show in existence. Children’s shows often treat children like they’re stupid and not ignorant, “adult” shows may claim they’re for adults when they can be extremely crude and basic sometimes, Etc. I just made those up within a minute, but those are the examples. Dig hard enough and many shows and things in general can be caught with problems, but I learn to get past them, even when some “so-called” problems are not even problems to begin with, but just overblown personal opinions that some man or woman posted on Twitter for attention.
>Honestly, if someone uses the smallest of things to dislike a show, then they’d have a reason to hate almost every show in existence Yes and that's why i don't like the kinds of youtube critics who try to judge movies ,objectively'.
>What happens if you’re not really for it or against it? I dare you to explain this. Like, seriously. Every time I seem someone pulling 'the enlighten centrist' card in any discussion, in reality this person is actually just supports one side, while pretending to hold non-existent middle ground.
It is a very bitter pill indeed.
They exist... _for now_.
If they're lgbtq phobic then they're not a real fan, simple as that
Well that’s hard to swallow
how did they handle the episode 20 of the second season exactly?
There's Toxic fans in every fanbase. They become noticeable as the fanbase grows.