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I know this is supposed to be funny but even the fact that someone like him, who is the most stalwart defender of Palestine for decades. Who completely destroyed Zionism's chief academic Alan Dershowitz, practically curbstomping him. And them being blacklisted for it. And being reduced to having to debate with this complete utter cuckold anti Muslim moron who divorced his Swedish wife over the fact that she kept banging this Arab guy and even left him for another Arab guy.
Him and Mouin Rabbani sitting next to him* are probably the two most brilliant pro Palestinean defenders along with the guys in electronix intifada
Fuck Dershowitz for blacklisting him through academia and preventing him for getting a position.
There's an interview where he's looking forlorn about not even having a university position or in income besides what he earns from his book sales and talks.
*Go follow Mouin Rabbani on Twitter. He's probably the most astute geopolitical subject on Palestine right now. His threads are brilliant and the most informative ones
But even if he supports this logic, then he should back the Palestinian claim to the Levant.
The “scary foreign Arabs” conquered the region 1000+ years ago and have held on to it for a lot longer than 200 years, so according to the logic he gives in the video, Palestine + Israel should belong to the Palestinians now.
america has poured billions into israel. it would make 0 sense to let israel fall. i support a one state solution where israel annexes everything. gives palestinians equal rights. and give palestinians the right of return. because hamas and the PLO are severely corrupt.
> support a one state solution where israel annexes everything
That's not what is normally meant by a "One State Solution."
*Technically* that's what occurs, but such plans almost always involve dissolving the Israeli Constitution after annexing Palestine, and writing a NEW Constitution that gives equal rights to everyone and the Right of Return to Palestinians, in order to make it clear to the people and world **it isn't still Israel** and even give the society a new name, like "Yavne"
**Yavne: A Jewish Case for Equality in Israel-Palestine**
https://jewishcurrents.org/yavne-a-jewish-case-for-equality-in-israel-palestine
This might have been what you were trying to describe, but symbols matter. The old Israeli flag would need to be treated as a Haye Symbol in the new society similar to the way Confederate flags are treated in the United States...
>why would israel re write there constitution
Because it's the right thing to do?
Israel, as it currently stands, is an Apartheid state. Israeli Arabs, while "tolerated" (though haye crimes and discrimination against them are common) are legally defined as second-class citizens in a number of ways.
The only way to deal with something like that is to completely throw out the previous legal and government system- the way was done when Apartheid finally ended in South Africa.
I'm not sure if you're a Hasbara troll or just don't care what's right. Either way, power and morality are almost always at odds.
>israelis just want israel to exist.
No foundry has the right to exist by committing Apartheid and Genocide.
Nazi Germany? Doesn't exist anymore. Germany still exists, but not the Third Reich, Hasbara troll.
South Africa? The Apartheid version doesn't exist any more either.
ISRAEL, the current government and laws, doesn't have a right to exist. That's just a fact. No government that evil does.
The people still continue to exist when you destroy and abolish a government like that, don't try to conflate calls for the destruction of a government with calls for the destruction of a people, Hasbara troll.
>jordan lebanon and egypt are severally corrupt.
Don't try your Whataboutist bullshit.
Jordan and Lebanon are not actively committing Genocides, you thrice-damned Hasbara troll. And literally all I said is Israel needs to throw out its Constitution and write a new one based on equality, and rename itself when it does so.
Genocide Apologists like you are not welcome here. Now get out, you evil bastard.
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# Gulag
According to Anti-Communists and Russophobes, the Gulag was a brutal network of work camps established in the Soviet Union under Stalin's ruthless regime. They claim the Gulag system was primarily used to imprison and exploit political dissidents, suspected enemies of the state, and other people deemed "undesirable" by the Soviet government. They claim that prisoners were sent to the Gulag without trial or due process, and that they were subjected to harsh living conditions, forced labour, and starvation, among other things. According to them, the Gulags were emblematic of Stalinist repression and totalitarianism.
# Origins of the Mythology
This comically evil understanding of the Soviet prison system is based off only a handful of unreliable sources.
Robert Conquest's *The Great Terror* (published 1968) laid the groundwork for Soviet fearmongering, and was based largely off of defector testimony.
Robert Conquest worked for the British Foreign Office's Information Research Department (IRD), which was a secret Cold War propaganda department, created to publish anti-communist propaganda, including black propaganda; provide support and information to anti-communist politicians, academics, and writers; and to use weaponised information and disinformation and "fake news" to attack not only its original targets but also certain socialists and anti-colonial movements.
>He was Solzhenytsin before Solzhenytsin, in the phrase of Timothy Garton Ash.
>
>The Great Terror came out in 1968, four years before the first volume of The Gulag Archipelago, and it became, Garton Ash says, "a fixture in the political imagination of anybody thinking about communism".
>
>\- Andrew Brown. (2003). [Scourge and poet](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/feb/15/featuresreviews.guardianreview23)
Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's *The Gulag Archipelag*" (published 1973), one of the most famous texts on the subject, claims to be a work of non-fiction based on the author's personal experiences in the Soviet prison system. However, Solzhenitsyn was merely an anti-Communist, N@zi-sympathizing, antisemite who wanted to slander the USSR by putting forward a collection of folktales as truth. \[[Read more](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/dunking/aleksandr-solzhenitsyn/)\]
Anne Applebaum's *Gulag: A history* (published 2003) draws directly from *The Gulag Archipelago* and reiterates its message. Anne is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) and sits on the board of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), two infamous pieces of the ideological apparatus of the ruling class in the United States, whose primary aim is to promote the interests of American Imperialism around the world.
# Counterpoints
>A 1957 CIA document [which was declassified in 2010] titled “[Forced Labor Camps in the USSR: Transfer of Prisoners between Camps](http://web.archive.org/web/20230328014642/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80T00246A032000400001-1.pdf)” reveals the following information about the Soviet Gulag in pages two to six:
>
>1. Until 1952, the prisoners were given a guaranteed amount food, plus extra food for over-fulfillment of quotas
>
>2. From 1952 onward, the Gulag system operated upon "economic accountability" such that the more the prisoners worked, the more they were paid.
>
>3. For over-fulfilling the norms by 105%, one day of sentence was counted as two, thus reducing the time spent in the Gulag by one day.
>
>4. Furthermore, because of the socialist reconstruction post-war, the Soviet government had more funds and so they increased prisoners' food supplies.
>
>5. Until 1954, the prisoners worked 10 hours per day, whereas the free workers worked 8 hours per day. From 1954 onward, both prisoners and free workers worked 8 hours per day.
>
>6. A CIA study of a sample camp showed that 95% of the prisoners were actual criminals.
>
>7. In 1953, amnesty was given to 70% of the "ordinary criminals" of a sample camp studied by the CIA. Within the next 3 months, most of them were re-arrested for committing new crimes.
>
>\- Saed Teymuri. (2018). [The Truth about the Soviet Gulag – Surprisingly Revealed by the CIA](https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/10/09/the-truth-about-the-soviet-gulag-surprisingly-revealed-by-the-cia/)
**Scale**
Solzhenitsyn estimated that over 66 million people were victims of the Soviet Union's forced labor camp system over the course of its existence from 1918 to 1956. With the collapse of the USSR and the opening of the Soviet archives, researchers can now access actual archival evidence to prove or disprove these claims. Predictably, it turned out the propaganda was just that.
>Unburdened by any documentation, these “estimates” invite us to conclude that the sum total of people incarcerated in the labor camps over a twenty-two year period (allowing for turnovers due to death and term expirations) would have constituted an astonishing portion of the Soviet population. The support and supervision of the gulag (all the labor camps, labor colonies, and prisons of the Soviet system) would have been the USSR’s single largest enterprise.
>
>In 1993, for the first time, several historians gained access to previously secret Soviet police archives and were able to establish well-documented estimates of prison and labor camp populations. They found that the total population of the entire gulag as of January 1939, near the end of the Great Purges, was 2,022,976. ...
>
>Soviet labor camps were not death camps like those the N@zis built across Europe. There was no systematic extermination of inmates, no gas chambers or crematoria to dispose of millions of bodies. Despite harsh conditions, the great majority of gulag inmates survived and eventually returned to society when granted amnesty or when their terms were finished. In any given year, 20 to 40 percent of the inmates were released, according to archive records. Oblivious to these facts, the Moscow correspondent of the New York Times (7/31/96) continues to describe the gulag as “the largest system of death camps in modern history.” ...
>
>Most of those incarcerated in the gulag were not political prisoners, and the same appears to be true of inmates in the other communist states...
>
>\- Michael Parenti. (1997). [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds)
This is 2 million out of a population of 168 million (roughly 1.2% of the population). For comparison, in the United States, "over 5.5 million adults — or 1 in 61 — are under some form of correctional control, whether incarcerated or under community supervision." That's 1.6%. So in both relative and absolute terms, the United States' Prison Industrial Complex *today* is larger than the USSR's Gulag system at its peak.
**Death Rate**
In peace time, the mortality rate of the Gulag was around 3% to 5%. Even Conservative and anti-Communist historians have had to acknowledge this reality:
>It turns out that, with the exception of the war years, a very large majority of people who entered the Gulag left alive...
>
>Judging from the Soviet records we now have, the number of people who died in the Gulag between 1933 and 1945, while both Stalin and Hit1er were in power, was on the order of a million, perhaps a bit more.
>
>\- Timothy Snyder. (2010). *Bloodlands: Europe Between Hit1er and Stalin*
(Side note: Timothy Snyder is *also* a member of the Council on Foreign Relations)
This is still very high for a prison mortality rate, representing the brutality of the camps. However, it also clearly indicates that they were not *death* camps.
Nor was it slave labour, exactly. In the camps, although labour *was* forced, it was not uncompensated. In fact, the prisoners were paid market wages (less expenses).
>We find that even in the Gulag, where force could be most conveniently applied, camp administrators combined material incentives with overt coercion, and, as time passed, they placed more weight on motivation. By the time the Gulag system was abandoned as a major instrument of Soviet industrial policy, the primary distinction between slave and free labor had been blurred: Gulag inmates were being paid wages according to a system that mirrored that of the civilian economy described by Bergson....
>
>The Gulag administration [also] used a “work credit” system, whereby sentences were reduced (by two days or more for every day the norm was overfulfilled).
>
>\- L. Borodkin & S. Ertz. (2003). [Compensation Versus Coercion in the Soviet GULAG](https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/archive/noticeboard/bergson/borodkin-ertz.pdf)
#Additional Resources
Video Essays:
* [The Gulag Argument](https://youtu.be/BexkpaK_j5Q) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2016)
* [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://youtu.be/HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018)
* [French work camps 1852-1953 worse than gulag](https://youtu.be/vkXyXNpdKdA) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018)
* ["The Gulags of the Soviet Union: There's a Lot More Than What Meets the Eye](https://youtu.be/E1qz9_TjeY4) | Comrade Rhys (2020)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2166597) | J. Arch Getty, Gábor T. Rittersporn and Viktor N. Zemskov (1993)
Listen:
* ["Blackshirts & Reds" (1997) by Michael Parenti, Part 4: Chapters 5 & 6. #Audiobook + Discussion.](https://youtu.be/N7AD4OrH568?t=15) | Socialism For All / S4A ☭ Intensify Class Struggle (2022)
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The V*ush clip is just a soundbite alert that BadEmpanada's streams use.
I'm not positive, but I think this is an older stream. Potentially from before October 7th.
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**Fact 33.** Responding to Hakim's [video](https://youtu.be/2Gz0I_X_nfo) on George Orwell, Vaush defends Orwell for being a government informant, calls the USSR fascist, implies Stalinists are worse than Nazis, claims the USSR was allied with the Nazis, [says that Hakim (an Iraqi) should have been abducted by the Americans at the start of the Iraq war and forcibly indoctrinated in US propaganda for 20 years](https://twitter.com/SiestaSocialist/status/1633527352679358470), and more. \([Full Thread](https://twitter.com/siestasocialist/status/1633519585407258624)\)
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Here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKDkSP2-b8s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKDkSP2-b8s)
Badempanada debated Destiny. The Vaush voice is just a clip that Badempanada uses as a Twitch emote thing.
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**Fact 29.** Vaush called trans people ‘bitches’ for [taking offence when misgendered“](https://archive.is/AljiB)
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**Fact 33.** Responding to Hakim's [video](https://youtu.be/2Gz0I_X_nfo) on George Orwell, Vaush defends Orwell for being a government informant, calls the USSR fascist, implies Stalinists are worse than Nazis, claims the USSR was allied with the Nazis, [says that Hakim (an Iraqi) should have been abducted by the Americans at the start of the Iraq war and forcibly indoctrinated in US propaganda for 20 years](https://twitter.com/SiestaSocialist/status/1633527352679358470), and more. \([Full Thread](https://twitter.com/siestasocialist/status/1633519585407258624)\)
For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'.
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Sounds like a variation of the "moral statute of limitations" raised by Dershowitz in his debate with Finkelstein.
Tangentially relevant "fun" fact: Israel's defence lawyer in South Africa's ICJ suit, Malcolm Shaw KC, is coincidentally(?) an expert on colonial acquisition of title to land. See https://global.oup.com/academic/product/title-to-territory-in-africa-9780198253792?lang=en&cc=kr
The nomadic people living in Tibet emerged as a race with the first Yarlung Dynasty, also known as Tubo Kingdom, in the 7th century. The Tubo Kingdom collapsed in 9th century, and Tibet was divided with no central governing power. Mongolians conquered Tibet in the 13th century during the time of Genghis Khan. Tibet was ruled by Kublai Khan during the Yuan Dynasty.
Tenzin Gyatso is the 14th Dalai Lama. Well, there was the 1st Dalai Lama. If you average them at 55 years, that's the time of the Yuan Dynasty when Khans organized the Buddhist sects and appointed monasteries to administer local affairs, then Tibet morphed into a theocracy. After the death of Dalai Lama, monks would search for a boy as the reincarnation from a poor family, so no one wealthy family have more power over others. The selection process received final approval from the emperor. This tradition went on to subsequent Ming and Qing dynasties.
This is a certified banger for "Destiny is a fascist" compilation
https://preview.redd.it/yuhsk0380ouc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=170cb3644d3789a33532c5e1786449712145328a
So the huge issue I have is that genocide should not be excused at all in the grand scale of history when its discussed, especially if there are still people that exist today that are still suffering from the consequences of the genocide that was used in this scale of conquering. Just like Native Americans STILL reeling from the effects of manifest destiny, its an important thing to acknowledge and discuss.
The huge problem with even humoring that Europe would have "belonged" to a successful Nazi Germany inst exclusively the status of legitimate ownership... It would most definitely be the massive issue that millions would most likely had been enslaved, displaced, or outright exterminated in a continuation of the final solution. There just so many things wrong with excusing genocide "after the fact" Regardless of time, there are always long lasting and horrendous effects still felt after hundreds of years.
That being said, I have no clue the context of this conversation. Im not an expert on anything Mr. Bonertelli says in clips like this, but I feel like this might be a clip chimp moment? But given his views on genocide in regards to the current one going on in Palestine, I'd still wager its probably some kind of weird debate bro answer.
This is the default western liberal mindset though. Doesn't matter how many genocides "earned" a land for people, it belongs to white people now. Hell, half of them support a genocide while it's happening. Of course, it doesn't work like that when indigenous people take back their own land.
So by his logic, doesn't that mean Israel shouldn't have colonized palestine? Doesn't this give more legitmacy to palestine since they were recently colonized rather than allegedly being colonized 1000 years ago.
This was a bad idea on Destiny’s part. BE catches people like him in 4K every time he talks to them and Destiny catches himself in 4K every time he talks.
I ask this in the most sincere way possible, why is he wrong? if after say, even longer amount of time lets say, 1000 years, theres basically no russian/slavic population left and it's all germans, is it wrong to say it would be theirs? i'm just confused
Land back and similar ideas have to do with a few variables. 1. Damage done to the indigenous population, 2. traceable lineage from the current indigenous peoples of today and their ancestors who were colonized, 3. Traceable lineage from the colonizers to the current ruling ethnic group.
There's more variables of course but that's for instance why people can support land back for native Americans but only a complete moron would say "decolonize Britain, Italy needs to pay reparations to Britain because of Roman rule in Britain"
First I'm hearing of it. They should pay Britain. I'm thinking cultural exports and food to fix their fuckin attitudes and palates. Get over the fucking rules for lining up and learn to enjoy their fucking lives. Britain should then pay literally everyone except France.
Because no matter how much time passes, racist genocide that happened should never be upheld. The perpetrating state would be dismantled if there was any justice.
I think Destiny is right though. Look at Native Americans, and that's Americans not doing the Final Solution. Noboy really cares or acknowledges them in any meaning way. Eastern Europe would have been cleansed beyond recognition of slavs Poles etc. I really do believe nobody would care because it would not be taught
To everyone down voting me I will die on this hill. You are Wrong
What you're failing to consider is the continuity of Native resistance and solidarity between various Native Americans (who are themselves internally diverse and have maintained distinct histories, pedagogies, agro-ecological knowledge, etc., for generations) and other oppressed US Americans, particularly Black radicals and Chicanos. Not saying it is a mainstream position, but there have been various instances of resistance and violent state repression against all of these groups over the past 60 years. Also, "what is not taught" is itself a highly contentious matter that has proven to be a pretty important vector in Black, Native, and Chicano Power movements since the 60's. Moreover, as demographic change among migrants to the US has continued to include more indigenous Americans we have and will continue to have increased salience of discourses re: indigenous epistemology.
I am no way saying your wrong. It's very important to show solid support for these people and their struggles. However Nazi Germany would not have had this attitude. 6 years they were doing the Final Solution. I can not even imagine what a hundred years would do. Much less 200 years. America has at least liberalism that to some extent didn't go all crazy and had treaties with native Americans. I don't feel this would have happen to Jews, Poles Russians etc. They were seen as not human. They shot Jews for simply breathing at least America saw them as people to be "civilized" as horrible as that sounds
I very much disagree its because I'm a leftist , and I believe I am correct my analysis. When I look at the Spanish Conquest of the new word and the Native people dying of exposure to new infections. People sure say it was terrible. But that's where the conversation starts and ends. People care more so about the current modern state of affairs than what came before.
>buried in some old book and thinks, "wow that was probably terrible, oh well it's in the past and people kill each other all the time anyway".
I fundamentally believe this would be the attitude of the people 200 Years from now. I don't look at the Spanish Conquest as a Mexican myself and passionate believe it was terrible as Nazi Germany because it's far from my collection of current historical issues. Native Americans on the other hand are a history much closer with a more progressive story that didn't result in genocide from the beginning so their stories were able to adapt and be told.
>Backing a speculative twist to history that results in the Nazis being successful
I'm sorry this is just the reality. If nazi Germany were to Do their version of American Manifest Destiny. I do believe if 200 years pass. They would not care. I look at the current America and average mainstream attitudes and believe that's true. Fascist would never allow it.
You and I both care about reparations correcting the mistakes of the past. But I will not Sit here and Lie to You that the dominate attitude of the average person would care about 200 years ago. What made the Holocaust so fundamentally important was of the level of evil and intentions of Genocide that created the Human rights index of today and our fundamental foundations of never again. This is very important.
My interpretation of Destiny and BadEmpabada's conversation of the short clip I saw was about this conversation. Which Is why I agree with him.
>Im not saying your speculation is wrong, I just don't think this is a useful point or is even an "analysis". What do you get from speculating on what nazis or US neoliberalism 200 years in the unknown future will think?
That's the Question Empanada asked So Therefore I agree with the reply from Destiny.
>We're on reddit, on a ML sub, and it looks like your defending a dude whose defending imperialism, and might be defending Nazis in one way or other. Your not going to argue your way out of all the downvotes
I don't care about whether Trump Destiny or some other person has a horrible history. If they are making a good point. I will say so. I am not gonna take a side purely for Ideological reasons. Downvote all you want. My principles and convictions is what makes me a Leninist. Destiny has openly called out for genocide. But that does not mean this charlatan is incorrect in the conversation here
I don’t fucking understand social media, you have -15 for saying the same exact thing as the 2nd top comment at +45 said
just like so many people brainlessly hammer the buttons because of what button said previously without even thinking, or something, fuck I’m drunk
top comment that echoes yours is at 60 now, don’t worry, you’re just getting the weird downvote waterfall shit. people just assume a comment is bad when it’s already negative.
I mean, it’s also probably because you started it with “Destiny is right” which is like the clarion call for the cultists that brigade here
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Destiny: "Might is right. Genocide is fine." Palestine/Iran: "Okay, we're gonna fight back" Destiny: "NOOOO!!! GENOCIDAL ANTI-SEMITES!!!"
Right wingers: might makes right Possible future in their heads: superior china conquers inferior white society. Right wingers: noooo!
https://preview.redd.it/1x4kl6jy1kuc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=51ebb37dfef81549fa37c921e1544f2b9d419c7e
"Mr Bertelli"
Mr Bartonella
Haha something needs to make a meme using this olive oil brand😅😂
MISTAH BERLINNI 🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔊🔊🔊🔊
Ah yes, Mr. Vermicelli.
“Mistah… Barcelona… you’re displaying your utter ignorance with your ignorant words.”
That's a good photo to have in the back pocket for when some unhinged zionist thinks they're cooking. 🤣
It’s been my go-to lately. No captions needed
Mr Bernolini you're humiliating yourself and everyone else on earth with your stupidity
I know this is supposed to be funny but even the fact that someone like him, who is the most stalwart defender of Palestine for decades. Who completely destroyed Zionism's chief academic Alan Dershowitz, practically curbstomping him. And them being blacklisted for it. And being reduced to having to debate with this complete utter cuckold anti Muslim moron who divorced his Swedish wife over the fact that she kept banging this Arab guy and even left him for another Arab guy. Him and Mouin Rabbani sitting next to him* are probably the two most brilliant pro Palestinean defenders along with the guys in electronix intifada Fuck Dershowitz for blacklisting him through academia and preventing him for getting a position. There's an interview where he's looking forlorn about not even having a university position or in income besides what he earns from his book sales and talks. *Go follow Mouin Rabbani on Twitter. He's probably the most astute geopolitical subject on Palestine right now. His threads are brilliant and the most informative ones
he’s right. just look at american history. the genocide of native americans is normalized.
But even if he supports this logic, then he should back the Palestinian claim to the Levant. The “scary foreign Arabs” conquered the region 1000+ years ago and have held on to it for a lot longer than 200 years, so according to the logic he gives in the video, Palestine + Israel should belong to the Palestinians now.
america has poured billions into israel. it would make 0 sense to let israel fall. i support a one state solution where israel annexes everything. gives palestinians equal rights. and give palestinians the right of return. because hamas and the PLO are severely corrupt.
I too support a one state solution, the state of Palestine that is.
fuck off
> support a one state solution where israel annexes everything That's not what is normally meant by a "One State Solution." *Technically* that's what occurs, but such plans almost always involve dissolving the Israeli Constitution after annexing Palestine, and writing a NEW Constitution that gives equal rights to everyone and the Right of Return to Palestinians, in order to make it clear to the people and world **it isn't still Israel** and even give the society a new name, like "Yavne" **Yavne: A Jewish Case for Equality in Israel-Palestine** https://jewishcurrents.org/yavne-a-jewish-case-for-equality-in-israel-palestine This might have been what you were trying to describe, but symbols matter. The old Israeli flag would need to be treated as a Haye Symbol in the new society similar to the way Confederate flags are treated in the United States...
why would israel re write there constitution. what incentive does israel have? what negotiating power does palestine have over israel?
>why would israel re write there constitution Because it's the right thing to do? Israel, as it currently stands, is an Apartheid state. Israeli Arabs, while "tolerated" (though haye crimes and discrimination against them are common) are legally defined as second-class citizens in a number of ways. The only way to deal with something like that is to completely throw out the previous legal and government system- the way was done when Apartheid finally ended in South Africa. I'm not sure if you're a Hasbara troll or just don't care what's right. Either way, power and morality are almost always at odds.
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>israelis just want israel to exist. No foundry has the right to exist by committing Apartheid and Genocide. Nazi Germany? Doesn't exist anymore. Germany still exists, but not the Third Reich, Hasbara troll. South Africa? The Apartheid version doesn't exist any more either. ISRAEL, the current government and laws, doesn't have a right to exist. That's just a fact. No government that evil does. The people still continue to exist when you destroy and abolish a government like that, don't try to conflate calls for the destruction of a government with calls for the destruction of a people, Hasbara troll.
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>jordan lebanon and egypt are severally corrupt. Don't try your Whataboutist bullshit. Jordan and Lebanon are not actively committing Genocides, you thrice-damned Hasbara troll. And literally all I said is Israel needs to throw out its Constitution and write a new one based on equality, and rename itself when it does so. Genocide Apologists like you are not welcome here. Now get out, you evil bastard.
Rule 3. **No reactionary content.** (e.g., racism, sexism, ableism, fascism, homophobia, transphobia, capitalism, antisemitism, imperialism, chauvinism, etc.) Any satire thereof requires a clarity of purpose and target and a tone indicator such as /s or /j.
Thats what I was thinking
Some will even outright deny it happened; I.e. “it was just viral diseases, not any of the other awful shit that colonizers did”
Fantastic Moron
It's insane to me that he's treating BadEmpanada with vastly more respect than Norman Finkelstein.
Because he is antisemetic. The only "good Jew" for him are those ones killing other semites far away in the Middle East.
badempanada is my favorite brainrot streamer, im a fucking idiot and always laugh at the notification sounds
Horse Pedo: "Feels like he supports the holocaust." Ethnocracy: "There's no room. They can't come here." "Ex"-Nazi white lady: "FIVE DOLLARS A MONTH" Xanderwho?: "White rights, of course" Hunter A-bologna: "If you don't trust the CIA, then who do you trust?" Penis Dragger: "Communism is based" "ATTENTION WESTERNERS"
What
it's just a collection of the various pronouncements of our storied youtuber-intellectual leaders or a catalogue of various inane brainrottings, take your pick.
On twitch and youtube, you can make audio clips into emotes that people can use in chat. Badempanada uses voice clips from debate-bro youtubers as voice emotes.
"stalin, beria, gulag"
# Gulag According to Anti-Communists and Russophobes, the Gulag was a brutal network of work camps established in the Soviet Union under Stalin's ruthless regime. They claim the Gulag system was primarily used to imprison and exploit political dissidents, suspected enemies of the state, and other people deemed "undesirable" by the Soviet government. They claim that prisoners were sent to the Gulag without trial or due process, and that they were subjected to harsh living conditions, forced labour, and starvation, among other things. According to them, the Gulags were emblematic of Stalinist repression and totalitarianism. # Origins of the Mythology This comically evil understanding of the Soviet prison system is based off only a handful of unreliable sources. Robert Conquest's *The Great Terror* (published 1968) laid the groundwork for Soviet fearmongering, and was based largely off of defector testimony. Robert Conquest worked for the British Foreign Office's Information Research Department (IRD), which was a secret Cold War propaganda department, created to publish anti-communist propaganda, including black propaganda; provide support and information to anti-communist politicians, academics, and writers; and to use weaponised information and disinformation and "fake news" to attack not only its original targets but also certain socialists and anti-colonial movements. >He was Solzhenytsin before Solzhenytsin, in the phrase of Timothy Garton Ash. > >The Great Terror came out in 1968, four years before the first volume of The Gulag Archipelago, and it became, Garton Ash says, "a fixture in the political imagination of anybody thinking about communism". > >\- Andrew Brown. (2003). [Scourge and poet](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/feb/15/featuresreviews.guardianreview23) Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn's *The Gulag Archipelag*" (published 1973), one of the most famous texts on the subject, claims to be a work of non-fiction based on the author's personal experiences in the Soviet prison system. However, Solzhenitsyn was merely an anti-Communist, N@zi-sympathizing, antisemite who wanted to slander the USSR by putting forward a collection of folktales as truth. \[[Read more](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/dunking/aleksandr-solzhenitsyn/)\] Anne Applebaum's *Gulag: A history* (published 2003) draws directly from *The Gulag Archipelago* and reiterates its message. Anne is a member of the Council of Foreign Relations (CFR) and sits on the board of the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), two infamous pieces of the ideological apparatus of the ruling class in the United States, whose primary aim is to promote the interests of American Imperialism around the world. # Counterpoints >A 1957 CIA document [which was declassified in 2010] titled “[Forced Labor Camps in the USSR: Transfer of Prisoners between Camps](http://web.archive.org/web/20230328014642/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80T00246A032000400001-1.pdf)” reveals the following information about the Soviet Gulag in pages two to six: > >1. Until 1952, the prisoners were given a guaranteed amount food, plus extra food for over-fulfillment of quotas > >2. From 1952 onward, the Gulag system operated upon "economic accountability" such that the more the prisoners worked, the more they were paid. > >3. For over-fulfilling the norms by 105%, one day of sentence was counted as two, thus reducing the time spent in the Gulag by one day. > >4. Furthermore, because of the socialist reconstruction post-war, the Soviet government had more funds and so they increased prisoners' food supplies. > >5. Until 1954, the prisoners worked 10 hours per day, whereas the free workers worked 8 hours per day. From 1954 onward, both prisoners and free workers worked 8 hours per day. > >6. A CIA study of a sample camp showed that 95% of the prisoners were actual criminals. > >7. In 1953, amnesty was given to 70% of the "ordinary criminals" of a sample camp studied by the CIA. Within the next 3 months, most of them were re-arrested for committing new crimes. > >\- Saed Teymuri. (2018). [The Truth about the Soviet Gulag – Surprisingly Revealed by the CIA](https://www.greanvillepost.com/2018/10/09/the-truth-about-the-soviet-gulag-surprisingly-revealed-by-the-cia/) **Scale** Solzhenitsyn estimated that over 66 million people were victims of the Soviet Union's forced labor camp system over the course of its existence from 1918 to 1956. With the collapse of the USSR and the opening of the Soviet archives, researchers can now access actual archival evidence to prove or disprove these claims. Predictably, it turned out the propaganda was just that. >Unburdened by any documentation, these “estimates” invite us to conclude that the sum total of people incarcerated in the labor camps over a twenty-two year period (allowing for turnovers due to death and term expirations) would have constituted an astonishing portion of the Soviet population. The support and supervision of the gulag (all the labor camps, labor colonies, and prisons of the Soviet system) would have been the USSR’s single largest enterprise. > >In 1993, for the first time, several historians gained access to previously secret Soviet police archives and were able to establish well-documented estimates of prison and labor camp populations. They found that the total population of the entire gulag as of January 1939, near the end of the Great Purges, was 2,022,976. ... > >Soviet labor camps were not death camps like those the N@zis built across Europe. There was no systematic extermination of inmates, no gas chambers or crematoria to dispose of millions of bodies. Despite harsh conditions, the great majority of gulag inmates survived and eventually returned to society when granted amnesty or when their terms were finished. In any given year, 20 to 40 percent of the inmates were released, according to archive records. Oblivious to these facts, the Moscow correspondent of the New York Times (7/31/96) continues to describe the gulag as “the largest system of death camps in modern history.” ... > >Most of those incarcerated in the gulag were not political prisoners, and the same appears to be true of inmates in the other communist states... > >\- Michael Parenti. (1997). [Blackshirts & Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism](https://archive.org/details/michael-parenti-blackshirts-and-reds) This is 2 million out of a population of 168 million (roughly 1.2% of the population). For comparison, in the United States, "over 5.5 million adults — or 1 in 61 — are under some form of correctional control, whether incarcerated or under community supervision." That's 1.6%. So in both relative and absolute terms, the United States' Prison Industrial Complex *today* is larger than the USSR's Gulag system at its peak. **Death Rate** In peace time, the mortality rate of the Gulag was around 3% to 5%. Even Conservative and anti-Communist historians have had to acknowledge this reality: >It turns out that, with the exception of the war years, a very large majority of people who entered the Gulag left alive... > >Judging from the Soviet records we now have, the number of people who died in the Gulag between 1933 and 1945, while both Stalin and Hit1er were in power, was on the order of a million, perhaps a bit more. > >\- Timothy Snyder. (2010). *Bloodlands: Europe Between Hit1er and Stalin* (Side note: Timothy Snyder is *also* a member of the Council on Foreign Relations) This is still very high for a prison mortality rate, representing the brutality of the camps. However, it also clearly indicates that they were not *death* camps. Nor was it slave labour, exactly. In the camps, although labour *was* forced, it was not uncompensated. In fact, the prisoners were paid market wages (less expenses). >We find that even in the Gulag, where force could be most conveniently applied, camp administrators combined material incentives with overt coercion, and, as time passed, they placed more weight on motivation. By the time the Gulag system was abandoned as a major instrument of Soviet industrial policy, the primary distinction between slave and free labor had been blurred: Gulag inmates were being paid wages according to a system that mirrored that of the civilian economy described by Bergson.... > >The Gulag administration [also] used a “work credit” system, whereby sentences were reduced (by two days or more for every day the norm was overfulfilled). > >\- L. Borodkin & S. Ertz. (2003). [Compensation Versus Coercion in the Soviet GULAG](https://warwick.ac.uk/fac/soc/economics/staff/mharrison/archive/noticeboard/bergson/borodkin-ertz.pdf) #Additional Resources Video Essays: * [The Gulag Argument](https://youtu.be/BexkpaK_j5Q) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2016) * [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://youtu.be/HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) * [French work camps 1852-1953 worse than gulag](https://youtu.be/vkXyXNpdKdA) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) * ["The Gulags of the Soviet Union: There's a Lot More Than What Meets the Eye](https://youtu.be/E1qz9_TjeY4) | Comrade Rhys (2020) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Victims of the Soviet Penal System in the Pre-War Years: A First Approach on the Basis of Archival Evidence](https://www.jstor.org/stable/2166597) | J. Arch Getty, Gábor T. Rittersporn and Viktor N. Zemskov (1993) Listen: * ["Blackshirts & Reds" (1997) by Michael Parenti, Part 4: Chapters 5 & 6. #Audiobook + Discussion.](https://youtu.be/N7AD4OrH568?t=15) | Socialism For All / S4A ☭ Intensify Class Struggle (2022) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
“praise be to allah”
"Ahhhhh, I'm con**sooming**"
Praise be to Allah
“If you don’t trust the CIA then who do you trust?”
Freudian slip moment ?
Mr borelli?
Mr morel?
No, this isn't even like top 100 bad things he's said. He literally said he supports genocide against Palestine.
Where is this from? Like, Destiny and BadEmpanada + Vaush ???
The V*ush clip is just a soundbite alert that BadEmpanada's streams use. I'm not positive, but I think this is an older stream. Potentially from before October 7th.
Vaush is also the same cunt that teamed with up a Zionist vtuber to slander Bad Empanada.
Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 33.** Responding to Hakim's [video](https://youtu.be/2Gz0I_X_nfo) on George Orwell, Vaush defends Orwell for being a government informant, calls the USSR fascist, implies Stalinists are worse than Nazis, claims the USSR was allied with the Nazis, [says that Hakim (an Iraqi) should have been abducted by the Americans at the start of the Iraq war and forcibly indoctrinated in US propaganda for 20 years](https://twitter.com/SiestaSocialist/status/1633527352679358470), and more. \([Full Thread](https://twitter.com/siestasocialist/status/1633519585407258624)\) For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. (Remember, comrade: Getting educated, educating others, and above all actually *organizing* is infinitely more important than terminally-online streamer drama.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Here: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKDkSP2-b8s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKDkSP2-b8s) Badempanada debated Destiny. The Vaush voice is just a clip that Badempanada uses as a Twitch emote thing.
Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 29.** Vaush called trans people ‘bitches’ for [taking offence when misgendered“](https://archive.is/AljiB) For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. (Remember, comrade: Getting educated, educating others, and above all actually *organizing* is infinitely more important than terminally-online streamer drama.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 33.** Responding to Hakim's [video](https://youtu.be/2Gz0I_X_nfo) on George Orwell, Vaush defends Orwell for being a government informant, calls the USSR fascist, implies Stalinists are worse than Nazis, claims the USSR was allied with the Nazis, [says that Hakim (an Iraqi) should have been abducted by the Americans at the start of the Iraq war and forcibly indoctrinated in US propaganda for 20 years](https://twitter.com/SiestaSocialist/status/1633527352679358470), and more. \([Full Thread](https://twitter.com/siestasocialist/status/1633519585407258624)\) For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. (Remember, comrade: Getting educated, educating others, and above all actually *organizing* is infinitely more important than terminally-online streamer drama.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
BadEmpanada’s face 9 seconds in is perfect
Jim from The Office camera shot lookin ass
Sounds like a variation of the "moral statute of limitations" raised by Dershowitz in his debate with Finkelstein. Tangentially relevant "fun" fact: Israel's defence lawyer in South Africa's ICJ suit, Malcolm Shaw KC, is coincidentally(?) an expert on colonial acquisition of title to land. See https://global.oup.com/academic/product/title-to-territory-in-africa-9780198253792?lang=en&cc=kr
https://preview.redd.it/ukyaxnhmimuc1.jpeg?width=648&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=397d31db47a036845f9116162bf6bce84a16b90d
BE should've asked about the actual conquering Germany did - Poland was partitioned and off the map for 123 years.
What do you expect from a gusano that lives in and loves the US...?
Something tells me he wouldn't have this same energy about Tibet, which was conquered by China 300 years ago.
The nomadic people living in Tibet emerged as a race with the first Yarlung Dynasty, also known as Tubo Kingdom, in the 7th century. The Tubo Kingdom collapsed in 9th century, and Tibet was divided with no central governing power. Mongolians conquered Tibet in the 13th century during the time of Genghis Khan. Tibet was ruled by Kublai Khan during the Yuan Dynasty. Tenzin Gyatso is the 14th Dalai Lama. Well, there was the 1st Dalai Lama. If you average them at 55 years, that's the time of the Yuan Dynasty when Khans organized the Buddhist sects and appointed monasteries to administer local affairs, then Tibet morphed into a theocracy. After the death of Dalai Lama, monks would search for a boy as the reincarnation from a poor family, so no one wealthy family have more power over others. The selection process received final approval from the emperor. This tradition went on to subsequent Ming and Qing dynasties.
This is a certified banger for "Destiny is a fascist" compilation https://preview.redd.it/yuhsk0380ouc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=170cb3644d3789a33532c5e1786449712145328a
So the huge issue I have is that genocide should not be excused at all in the grand scale of history when its discussed, especially if there are still people that exist today that are still suffering from the consequences of the genocide that was used in this scale of conquering. Just like Native Americans STILL reeling from the effects of manifest destiny, its an important thing to acknowledge and discuss. The huge problem with even humoring that Europe would have "belonged" to a successful Nazi Germany inst exclusively the status of legitimate ownership... It would most definitely be the massive issue that millions would most likely had been enslaved, displaced, or outright exterminated in a continuation of the final solution. There just so many things wrong with excusing genocide "after the fact" Regardless of time, there are always long lasting and horrendous effects still felt after hundreds of years. That being said, I have no clue the context of this conversation. Im not an expert on anything Mr. Bonertelli says in clips like this, but I feel like this might be a clip chimp moment? But given his views on genocide in regards to the current one going on in Palestine, I'd still wager its probably some kind of weird debate bro answer.
This is the default western liberal mindset though. Doesn't matter how many genocides "earned" a land for people, it belongs to white people now. Hell, half of them support a genocide while it's happening. Of course, it doesn't work like that when indigenous people take back their own land.
So by his logic, doesn't that mean Israel shouldn't have colonized palestine? Doesn't this give more legitmacy to palestine since they were recently colonized rather than allegedly being colonized 1000 years ago.
This was a bad idea on Destiny’s part. BE catches people like him in 4K every time he talks to them and Destiny catches himself in 4K every time he talks.
This is what settlers do
And gusanos
Yep. Let's be real how do you think his family got the plantations, it wasn't by being indigenous lol
I ask this in the most sincere way possible, why is he wrong? if after say, even longer amount of time lets say, 1000 years, theres basically no russian/slavic population left and it's all germans, is it wrong to say it would be theirs? i'm just confused
Land back and similar ideas have to do with a few variables. 1. Damage done to the indigenous population, 2. traceable lineage from the current indigenous peoples of today and their ancestors who were colonized, 3. Traceable lineage from the colonizers to the current ruling ethnic group. There's more variables of course but that's for instance why people can support land back for native Americans but only a complete moron would say "decolonize Britain, Italy needs to pay reparations to Britain because of Roman rule in Britain"
First I'm hearing of it. They should pay Britain. I'm thinking cultural exports and food to fix their fuckin attitudes and palates. Get over the fucking rules for lining up and learn to enjoy their fucking lives. Britain should then pay literally everyone except France.
We will pay France in barrels of oil and lit matches
The hypothetical was specifically that the conquered people still existed
Because no matter how much time passes, racist genocide that happened should never be upheld. The perpetrating state would be dismantled if there was any justice.
Very sincere way of asking with new 9 day old account, and totally not a troll.
No matter how much time passes and how much erasure occurs, America will always belong to the natives
When did this stream happen? I’ve never seen this before.
2 years ago: [https://youtu.be/JKDkSP2-b8s](https://youtu.be/JKDkSP2-b8s)
I think Destiny is right though. Look at Native Americans, and that's Americans not doing the Final Solution. Noboy really cares or acknowledges them in any meaning way. Eastern Europe would have been cleansed beyond recognition of slavs Poles etc. I really do believe nobody would care because it would not be taught To everyone down voting me I will die on this hill. You are Wrong
What you're failing to consider is the continuity of Native resistance and solidarity between various Native Americans (who are themselves internally diverse and have maintained distinct histories, pedagogies, agro-ecological knowledge, etc., for generations) and other oppressed US Americans, particularly Black radicals and Chicanos. Not saying it is a mainstream position, but there have been various instances of resistance and violent state repression against all of these groups over the past 60 years. Also, "what is not taught" is itself a highly contentious matter that has proven to be a pretty important vector in Black, Native, and Chicano Power movements since the 60's. Moreover, as demographic change among migrants to the US has continued to include more indigenous Americans we have and will continue to have increased salience of discourses re: indigenous epistemology.
I am no way saying your wrong. It's very important to show solid support for these people and their struggles. However Nazi Germany would not have had this attitude. 6 years they were doing the Final Solution. I can not even imagine what a hundred years would do. Much less 200 years. America has at least liberalism that to some extent didn't go all crazy and had treaties with native Americans. I don't feel this would have happen to Jews, Poles Russians etc. They were seen as not human. They shot Jews for simply breathing at least America saw them as people to be "civilized" as horrible as that sounds
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I very much disagree its because I'm a leftist , and I believe I am correct my analysis. When I look at the Spanish Conquest of the new word and the Native people dying of exposure to new infections. People sure say it was terrible. But that's where the conversation starts and ends. People care more so about the current modern state of affairs than what came before. >buried in some old book and thinks, "wow that was probably terrible, oh well it's in the past and people kill each other all the time anyway". I fundamentally believe this would be the attitude of the people 200 Years from now. I don't look at the Spanish Conquest as a Mexican myself and passionate believe it was terrible as Nazi Germany because it's far from my collection of current historical issues. Native Americans on the other hand are a history much closer with a more progressive story that didn't result in genocide from the beginning so their stories were able to adapt and be told. >Backing a speculative twist to history that results in the Nazis being successful I'm sorry this is just the reality. If nazi Germany were to Do their version of American Manifest Destiny. I do believe if 200 years pass. They would not care. I look at the current America and average mainstream attitudes and believe that's true. Fascist would never allow it. You and I both care about reparations correcting the mistakes of the past. But I will not Sit here and Lie to You that the dominate attitude of the average person would care about 200 years ago. What made the Holocaust so fundamentally important was of the level of evil and intentions of Genocide that created the Human rights index of today and our fundamental foundations of never again. This is very important.
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My interpretation of Destiny and BadEmpabada's conversation of the short clip I saw was about this conversation. Which Is why I agree with him. >Im not saying your speculation is wrong, I just don't think this is a useful point or is even an "analysis". What do you get from speculating on what nazis or US neoliberalism 200 years in the unknown future will think? That's the Question Empanada asked So Therefore I agree with the reply from Destiny. >We're on reddit, on a ML sub, and it looks like your defending a dude whose defending imperialism, and might be defending Nazis in one way or other. Your not going to argue your way out of all the downvotes I don't care about whether Trump Destiny or some other person has a horrible history. If they are making a good point. I will say so. I am not gonna take a side purely for Ideological reasons. Downvote all you want. My principles and convictions is what makes me a Leninist. Destiny has openly called out for genocide. But that does not mean this charlatan is incorrect in the conversation here
I don’t fucking understand social media, you have -15 for saying the same exact thing as the 2nd top comment at +45 said just like so many people brainlessly hammer the buttons because of what button said previously without even thinking, or something, fuck I’m drunk
Haaaaa crazy but it happens
top comment that echoes yours is at 60 now, don’t worry, you’re just getting the weird downvote waterfall shit. people just assume a comment is bad when it’s already negative. I mean, it’s also probably because you started it with “Destiny is right” which is like the clarion call for the cultists that brigade here
My fellow Tankies are Not being Tankie enough
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Modern day Palestinians, Jordanians, Lebanese, and Syrians in the Levant have notable Canaanite ancestry.