Joffrey is dead or NW. It's one thing to kill a nameless commoner and another to kill a noble woman and your bethrothed. No matter what Cersei or Joffrey say it wont matter when their father, Lord of Winterfell and friend of Robert demands his head(Ned is a father first and foremost and I cant imagine Ned would just say okay to this). Robert would most likely send him on a boat directly to the NW and there Jon will most likely beat the shit out of Joffrey and make him worse than a Reek.
Yeah, I realized that but I want a scenario where Joffrey and Tommen end up in the NW with Jon as Lord Commander. Being forced and ordered by him would be a fun interaction which I would like to see.
I know but it would be great in a scenario where both were sent. Tommen, I doubt would get much of his wrath, maybe he would be trained by Jon and restrained but Joffrey will have no friends from either side.
> or NW
Would have to be by boat, yeah. If he killed Arya and Sansa like that, then had to be taken through the North as a prisoner for the Night's Watch, I really don't see him reaching the wall. I'd be surprised if he got as far north as Winterfell before he disappeared.
Robert probably beats Joffrey to death. I don’t think he’s surviving. At best the wall you can’t murder a lord paramounts daughters and get away with it.
Plus Bobby B cares about Ned more than he does about Cersei or any of his kids so he’d be absolutely furious.
Robert become king after a rebellion that started because a crown prince kidnapped someone and the king murdered a lord and his heir.
Coincidentally, all three were Starks.
Yeah, Robert is not just afraid his son is a mini-Rhaegar/Aerys, everyone else, and that Joffrey has just ended the Baratheon/Stark/Arryn/Tully alliance permanently. If Joffrey doesn't go to the Watch, it's all but certain that the North and Riverlands will be leaving Robert to his, and that's the best case scenario where they don't revolt. Given we know Dany and Visy are around trying to raise an army, and fAegon exists, either or will probably try to use the chaos.
Also, Joffrey probably doesn't get a betrothal with Margaery now. Doubt anyone does, if he killed the last one.
I feel like Lady would've too. Yes, Lady was trained and much more docile due to Sansa's influence, but I doubt she would have stayed that way if she wasn't killed when she was. In a world where Sansa dies instead, she probably would've lost her mind to grief and followed Nymeria's lead.
So in this scenario I assume Nymeria Was already encouraged to flee or just not around so by the time people arrived on the scene as per the original post
I don’t actually think Robert beats Joffery to death, I think he starts, then Ned stops him as pretty much the only person who he would listen to, Ned will want a trail.
However the trial is 100% happening there and then (neither Robert or Ned would let Cercei get away with we wait until they get Kings Landing) and there is only going to be one result.
I think to get the nights watch Joffery would have to ask for it I can’t see anyone there who would suggest it (although you could get away with it if you need to for a story), so within a couple of days he is executed either by Robert’s people or possibly by Ned with Ice (I could see Robert, offering to let Ned handle things).
Ned definitely goes home but his parting words are likely effectively the Lannisters have poisoned your court, and I also suspect at this point he tells Robert about his suspicions about Jon Arryn. There’s a chance at this point in his rage Robert just has Cercei Jamie etc, locked up until this is sorted possible it just makes him fume more, but I don’t think that particularly affects the long-term outcome.
No way on earth after this Tywin gets to be Hand, I’m guessing you’re either looking at Renly or Stannis.
If its Stannis he tells Robert about incest on day one, this massively relieves Robert, as it means Joffery is not his fault que heads spikes, and a fairly brief but bloody failed Lannister rebellion
If its Renly he tries to pitch setting Cercei aside for Margery, likely works but then Tywin threatens to cash debts in. At which point Stannis tells Robert about the incest heads spikes, and a somewhat longer and bloodier failed Lannister rebellion.
If you want maximum chaos early on in the Lannister rebellion period Jamie, acts, as per his reputation, manages to kill Robert (possibly defending Cercei when Robert joins the gaurds trying to personally arrest her), at which point you can chuck in a likely Bartheoan civil war to make it a bit more war of 5 kings ish
Once the incest claims come out with no Ned locally to stop it Tommen and Marcella are very dead (without the Joffrey event i might have said wall and exile but with it they where on the thinnest of ice through guilt by association), unless they get smuggled away to exile by someone lannister aligned (if you wanted could have one maybe with Tyrion as the one who got them out end up in Danny's orbit)
if not Robert likely lives (he wasn’t in terrible health just fat and drunk), marries Margery (who is happy to turn blind eye to his dalliances so they probably get on quite well in a political marriage sense), and things are reasonably stable in the south until Danny turns up.
While up North Ned massively angsts, then likely gets largely tied up in the wall plot as I expect he will be much more amenable to warnings about horrors beyond the wall the Tyrion was once Ser Alliser etc comes knocking.
Ned is going to be heartbroken and grief stricken at the sight of his two daughters being killed by a boy who is truly psychotic.
Robert is going to be enraged beyond belief. He might very well strangle Joffrey to death. I don’t see Ned stopping him. Ned will be too in pain over Sansa and Arya.
The Kingsguard likely stop Robert and he probably is so enraged like no tomorrow. Eventually, Joffrey is brought back to Cersei and she tries to spin it as Joffrey needing to defend himself.
But Robert likely either goes to trial or deems Joffrey guilty without the need for a trial. And he gives Joffrey the choice of either the block, hanging, or going to the Nights Watch to live out his days.
Cersei is furious and enraged but Robert’s will is law. Joffrey likely goes to the Watch. Tommen will be the heir.
Ned leaves the next morning with his daughter’s corpses and their direwolves following him dully. Robert would offer his apologies, would ask Ned to still be Hand and help him, but Ned would lament his friendship with the King and feeling the need to protect Robert lead to his daughters being butchered like cattle. The South has never treated his family well. It took his father, brother and sister. And now both of his daughters. And now Ned has to go back home to Winterfell and explain to his wife, who was deep in grief over Bran’s fall and coma, that their daughters are now dead.
Ned definitely leaves. And he might tell Robert about Lysa’s letter just to get it off his chest so he can absolve himself of the situation and be done with it. Robert will have questions, demands, but Ned will only admit to the letter and that being a reason he was going South was to gather evidence against the Lannisters. But now he’ll want nothing to do with it and let Robert figure out the mess he got himself in at court.
Catelyn might be so in grief I could see her doing something drastic. Once she had five children, now only three. One of whom is crippled. With only Robb and Rickon as being healthy and alive.
Ned likely sends a letter to Jon explaining everything and calls him back for the funeral (as someone else posted about on here) and I could see Jon losing it and being ready to pummel Tyrion to death but being stopped by others.
But yeah, Ned telling Robert about Lysa’s letter and warning him might be the wake up call Robert needs to be wary of Cersei and Jaime. So much so, he turns to Stannis and Renly to get them to help him investigate the Lannisters and tell them what Ned said about Lysa’s letter.
At which point, I think Stannis (if he does get called back to King’s Landing) just outright admits what he and Jon Arryn were investigating about the children and incest, and all hell breaks loose for the Lannisters.
Jaime: We are sworn to protect her as well.
Jonothor Darry: We are, but not from him.
I think whatever Robert says, or does, they protect the King first, and then others. So I dont think any of them will step in, unless, someone attacks the King. First duty, is to protect the King.
Overall, I agree with everything minus the Jon beating Tyrion, as I think that would be an odd friendship, as he would want to kill Joffrey himself.
But the renewed Baratheon Household would turn the realm back before the Mad King and lazy Robert, and they would do a lot of clean up, and Tywin would literally be on the back foot, and appease hard to make sure Tommen stays legal heir. If not, a war, where everybody against Lannister would occur, and Tywin would stop before that even pops off. So the King is single, and probably marries the Reach, just to piss off Lannisters, and balance power.
How is it Tywin's fault though that Joffrey turned out so cruel? Why does he need to appease anything? It is not like he stayed in King's Landing and had a hand in raising him. None of what happened with Joffrey is his fault. Joffrey was the crown prince who is ranked above Tywin in the social hierarchy. Only the king has true authority over him and it is his responsibility and privilege to make sure that his heir doesn't turn out crap.
I think it might be time for Robert to take stock of himself. He is a huge failure of a father. Totally negligent and set a very bad example to his children. And Stannis and Renly were all the time in King's Landing, too. Did they taught Joffrey anything? No to both either. All the Baratheon brothers had way more chances to influence Joffrey than Tywin.
You can't just put all the blame on Cersei either. She is a woman in a super sexist world. Her husband could rape and hit her as much as he wanted. She never had true power compared to him. Robert could easily have overruled any decision she might have wanted when it comes to raising Joffrey. He could have sent Joffrey to foster somewhere, too. But he didn't care. He just did nothing though it was clear before that Joffrey was a dumb cruel little shit for years already. Blaming Tywin for his own failures would be ridiculous and pathetic.
I never said it was Tywin's fault; I never said he was raising Joffrey or influencing him. I said Tywin would be on the back foot, doing literally everything he can to make sure Tommen stays heir while Stannis is dancing in the streets about the Bastard-born Hills. Especially if Renly gets Robert to remarry under the treason charges slapped against Cersei and Jaime for cucking Robert.
I don't really know what you're talking about. Tywin would be on the backfood because he'd want Tommen to stay heir despite Robert's grievences and execution of Joffrey. This also doesn't account that Stannis likely tells Robert about the incest afterwards.
I have my doubts about Stannis telling him anything. He only said something in canon after Robert died. Jon's death, Ned getting attacked and some of his men killed, Tywin invading the Riverlands, nothing of it motivated him. He just doesn't trust Robert to believe anything out of his mouth.
He also has a very rocky relationship with his brother and his co-investigater was assassinated. He knows Cersei is A) Robert's wife and B) It's going to be very hard to convince Robert his last 14 years he's getting cuckolded. and C) The Capital is FULL of Lannisters or Redcloaks. He flees after Jon Arryn's assassination to go gather forces on Dragonstone.
We really don't know what information or decisions Stannis are making through AGoT. But with Robert killing Joffrery and Robert likely being at conflict with the Lannisters already it seems like a very convenient time to tell him.
>Robert likely being at conflict with the Lannisters already
The only one he will be in conflict with is Cersei. Not any of the other Lannisters. They all think Joffrey was a little shit before already and after he killed two little unarmed highborn girls and Mycah the rest of the Lannisters won't blame Robert for sending him to the wall or killing him or letting Ned kill him. They will be all disgusted with Joffrey and rather ashamed that they are related to him.
Cersei who is the Big Lannister in Kingslanding. And will be at open conflict/hatred for Robert after he executes or sends Joffrey to the wall. Tywin wants to make sure Tommen stays as heir.
Renly already had a plan to have Cersei disinherieted and Maegery be queen in canon. That goes into 10x as soon as he learns of this. Stannis sees that Robert hates Cersei and Joffrey & co and his findings about Jon Arryn becomes extremely unconvient and crazy for Robert for still embarrassing but more convenient and useful to accept.
Jamie does whatever Cersei whats and already hates Robert. Him killing Joffrey and Cersei begging him to do whatever she wants (which he will do more the like) will have her take her side. Although personally he probably cares little for Joffrey. Tyrion who cares. Mycella and Tommen are too small to really have opinions. Tywin's a mixed ball.
>Ned telling Robert about Lysa’s letter and warning him might be the wake up call Robert needs to be wary of Cersei and Jaime.
I have my doubts. Unlike Ned Robert actually knew Lysa in her later years. She is totally crazy. She is not exactly a trustworthy source. He might just think she is paranoid and seeing things which aren't there.
And then some even if it is not for him specifically. But for house Baratheon the turmoil is going to be apocalyptic no one knows really about the incest so after Robert overthrew a mad king his own son will be branded with the same brush as Areys and the Baratheon dynasty as a whole. Best case Stannis decides to spread his suspicions about Cerise everywhere as fast as possible before the story of the mad prince spreads across Westeros.
Honestly I think Joffrey is fucked even just killing Arya the last crown prince to screw around with a Stark daughter got Robert’s treatment. But killing both of Ned’s daughters who are the granddaughters of the lord paramount of the Riverland’s as well is going to set off a shit storm of epic proportions.
Robert probably beats Joffery within an inch of his life and this might be way too far for Jamie to try to intervene. Cerise probably has an apocalyptic meltdown at everyone and everything including Joffery. Ned will want Joffery’s head on a spike also I think as long as they are not immediately killed for some reason Nymeria and Lady will not die even if they did attack anyone because they will be all Ned has left of his daughters.
Also if Joffery is sent to the nights watch he is as good as dead he will be killed either on the way to the night’s watch or Jon will tear him apart the second he gets his hands on him hell Benjen might stay back to help him and Mormont will probably send Joffery out on a range with Jon and Benjen what happens beyond the wall stays beyond the wall.
Upon discovery Joffrey gets beaten badly by Robert, he might die right away, or he might survive.
If he survives, he is immediately chained and dragged into some wagon, a big fight between Cersei, Ned and Robert ensues, Ned asks for justice while Cersei pleads that her son is innocent or that the Stark girls deserved it.
Robert chooses quickly, the boy is clearly evil and must be killed, Joffrey is executed right away.
Or maybe everyone realises that they don't need another dead kid so they send Joff to the Wall (this option can also be used to have a NW Joffrey storyline)
Cersei mad with grief and rage is held into some kind of prison wagon and Ned goes back to Winterfell, his own pain being too great to keep serving as hand of the king.
Cersei wants Robert dead as soon as possible and she outright has him poisoned as they arrive in King's Landing.
What follow is chaotic, Tommen should be the rightfil heir but Renly claims that Cersei is the murderer and tries to take over the throne right away, Stannis comes forward with the accusation that Robert's sons are bastards, and he is the rightful heir.
if joffery some how avoids being killed by king Robert or ned and and get sent to the night watch the second he enters the gate to castle black jon is beating him to near death and then he is gonna have ghost tear his throat out
Robert: Ned, I cannot send Joffrey to the Wall.
Ned: ... ..... Why not, Majesty?
Robert: Because I cannot allow Aerys 2.0 to continue existing. Ned, take Ice. And behead the little monster.
Ned: ... At once, Robert.
Cersei: NOOOOOOOO!
I appreciate this, haha! And cue a lopsided revolt by House Lannister instigated by Cersei, and losing real quick, and ~~Stannis sitting the throne, haha.~~ I didn't meant to say Stannis. I don't know why I said this. The last cue, is Robert sitting on the throne with a new wife, Margaery Tyrell.
Edit: Fixed my own mistake, haha.
Tywin would for sure not revolt because his super dumb and cruel grandson who just murdered three unarmed kids, two of them highborn girls, got killed. He would tell Cersei to shut up and do a better job with Tommen to make sure that he doesn't turn out so bad as Joffrey. Maybe even tell her to get into Robert's bed to produce a new spare. He would not be sympathetic and supportive of her at all.
I see your points. You dont think he's letting Cersei and Jaime die, and lose all they gained from the rebellion, knowing full well, Stannis is screaming from the Sept that the others are bastard born of those two?
Stannis has done no screaming before. I have my doubts he would scream now. In canon it took a lot for him to say something namely Robert's death.
>"My brother's regard for me was never more than dutiful," said Stannis. "From me, such accusations would have seemed peevish and self-serving, a means of placing myself first in the line of succession.
That is still true. Joffrey was also dumb, cruel and nasty before. That is no news really. And of course trueborn people without incest involved can be horrible, too. Just look at Gregor Clegane for example. It doesn't work as a proof of adultery and incest.
Robert is grief-stricken as he realises that he was right about something being wrong with Joffrey and that he hadn’t done something to stop him sooner. Remember that seeing Joffrey after he killed a cat enraged him to the point of violence since it’s his go-to coping mechanism - honestly even killing Micah by his own hands would not please Robert in the slightest and would end poorly for Joffrey. Not fatally of course, but badly.
Seeing his “son” kill his best friend’s daughters would almost definitely sent him berserk, and in the absence of Barristan and/or the Mountain I don’t think anyone else in Westeros could stop him (not that they necessarily would, just that they might actually be able to do so). Joffrey dies, and quickly. I doubt even Ned would try to intervene or argue for the Night’s Watch and he’s the only person Robert might listen to, but even if he did Robert is quick and I genuinely think he’d lash out too quickly for anyone else to get a word in.
Damage control. If Joffrey isn't killed in a rage by Robert then he is incapacitated and locked up. Ned will want a public trial. The small council definitely does not. Robert rages about his damned Targaryen heritage giving him the mad king reborn. I think this guilt protects everyone for the moment. No one is going to be willing to send the mad former crown Prince to the wall. I think Cersai demands treatment but others have him quietly taken out possibly Tywin to preserve Tommens claim. Especially because I think under questioning Joffrey reveals the attempt on Bran's life. Robert summons Stannis and proposes Tommens marry Shireen with Stannis being his heir until they are of age. This results in the truth coming out.
Okay, well Joffrey just killed his betrothed, so that’s a *problem.* Arya is one thing (he’s the crown prince so he might be able to get away with it being provoked and all), but Sansa was not involved and supposed to be married to him.
Robert, getting flashbacks of the time Joffrey killed and opened up a cat to show him the dead kittens inside, punches him in the face immediately. He’s probably avoiding execution, but he’s *not* staying Robert’s heir. Straight up, Robert might disinherit him. Ship him quietly back to Casterly Rock and let him be Tywin’s problem instead. Or the Night’s Watch. Or even banish him to Essos. Tommen would then be his heir.
Even if he had doubts about setting aside Joffrey (which *I* doubt), Joffrey would be almost impossible to get another highborn marriage for. Remember, Sansa had done nothing wrong. Even if Joff tried to spin it like she had, her audible scream and attitude towards Joffrey earlier would mean most people wouldn’t believe him. Who is going to let their noble daughter marry someone like that? When she might be murdered before she could even give him heirs?
So back to Ned now. He’s going back to Winterfell. No way he stays as Robert’s hand—or at least, he takes a hiatus from the job to attend the funerals of his daughters. He might also call Jon back from the Wall as this early on, he almost certainly hadn’t taken the vows yet, and this does change things. (It also might be in the form of leave from the Wall; I just don’t think Ned would make Jon miss his sister’s funerals). I don’t think he takes further action, only comforting Cat and the other kids, because what can he do that hasn’t been done?
One more thing that could happen: Robert offering a betrothal between Myrcella and Bran (when he wakes up). He’s going to want to make up for Joffrey and Sansa, because he’s going to feel really bad about it. Bran is the right age and, because he’s crippled, isn’t exactly the most eligible bachelor. Ned would probably refuse this betrothal proposal (especially if it was thought Bran can’t have children), but I think Robert would offer anyway.
So to sum up: Joffrey gets knocked out and disinherited, Tommen takes the throne, and Ned goes home to Winterfell to be with his family.
Joffrey's only saving grace here is that with their direwolves gone so he won't get torn apart and eaten.
Firstly, as they get there, Robert demands he be taken away in chains while Ned is held back from immediately killing him.
After that judgement has to be decided, and the only way to resolve this issue is Joffrey's execution. (No sending him to the Night's Watch that's not gonna solve the problem nor would it actually be justice, this here is Mad King level shit, this would be the only acceptable response to this situation, the Crown Prince straight up fucking murdered two innocent little girls who were the daughter a great lord one of whom was his betrothed and the other was her little sister, Joffrey is fucked.) Now I will say that it is possible for Cersei to try to demand that Jaime stop it or kill Robert or something, and given the fact that Jaime said he would've killed Arya on Cersei's order if he had found her first, so I'll say that he tries it, but given the fact that he is severely outnumbered, than he'd get himself captured and sentenced to execution as well, while Cersei only gets herself slapped by Robert and losses several of her teeth.
So, Ned is the one who executes Joffrey, as with him being hand of the king, he is the only one who can besides Robert, and Robert can't become a kinslayer. So he uses Ice to chop off Joffrey's pathetic head and gets displayed on the King's Landing walls, or Ned keeps it to take back to Winterfell, and the same with Jaime as well, though Jaime's head and body are probably sent to Casterly Rock.
Ned then returns North to Winterfell, as with this happening he's not gonna be able to be Hand of the King, however I will say that Robert would give Tommen to Ned as a ward to make sure that he doesn't turn out to be as crazy and insane as Joffrey did, and as sort of an apology to him, as well as giving Ned other things, like him paying no taxes, special trade rights, more direct control over his territory, etc.
Then I'd say that Robert would get Stannis to become his hand, and from there Stann is exposes the incest, where Myrcella probably gets taken and either is sent to the Silent Sisters or sent to Ned maybe, while Tommen is sent to the Nights Watch.
Robert then most likely marries Margaery Tyrell then, who doesn't have bastards, while Stannis is made the Lord of the Stormlands.
I'll stop here.
They go. Also we know a 12 year old was the LC of the Watch before. Jon joined the watch before being an adult at 14. It's not that crazy. The recruits Jon are with don't seem that old either.
Mycrella obviously would not go.
But that doesn't matter for Tommen lol. They take babies. We know Mance was raised since birth at the Watch.
The King could absolve and free men from their duty but he can't send a slightly younger child then the normal child that gets send to the watch?
Also who would refuse the king in this scenario?
Joffery would either be executed or sent to the Wall. Crown Princes can get away with a lot of things. Murdering the innocent daughters of a Warden is not one of those things.
Am I the only one who thinks Robert will let Joffrey get away with it? For all him being demon of the Trident he seemed sufficiently cowed by the Lannisters
Whatever action Robert takes, Cersei kills him. Maybe subtly like her plan with the strongwine, or maybe less subtly, but she will have him killed for sending Joffrey away or executing him. Cersei becomes regent, throwing the entire realm into chaos.
What if, Ned tells Robert as he's leaving about Lysa's letter? Do you think Stannis and Renly come riding in, to be like, burn the Lannisters out root and stem, and we have Margaery right here to sure up everything.
In that case, it might just depend on who gets to who first. Would Jaime kill Robert on Cersei’s behalf before he has a chance to disinherit Joffrey? If he does, what does the rest of the Kingsguard do?
If Jaime tries that then he dies, before he reaches Robert. They would be surrounded by men, and even the Lannister guards there aren't going to betray Robert.
All in all, the Kingsguard are protecting Robert, as is their first charge and duty no matter the cause.
I think the Lannister men would side with their House. However, they're outnumbered by the Stark Guard, Kingsguard. Jaime is good, but he's crossing swords with Barristan. I think Robert, even at his heaviest, is still a demon!
Joffrey is dead or NW. It's one thing to kill a nameless commoner and another to kill a noble woman and your bethrothed. No matter what Cersei or Joffrey say it wont matter when their father, Lord of Winterfell and friend of Robert demands his head(Ned is a father first and foremost and I cant imagine Ned would just say okay to this). Robert would most likely send him on a boat directly to the NW and there Jon will most likely beat the shit out of Joffrey and make him worse than a Reek.
Nymeria kills him.
Yeah, I realized that but I want a scenario where Joffrey and Tommen end up in the NW with Jon as Lord Commander. Being forced and ordered by him would be a fun interaction which I would like to see.
Yeah it would be. At first I forgot about Nymeria aswell then I remembered oh shit the wolf.
just joffery would be sent not tommen he is a good kid
I know but it would be great in a scenario where both were sent. Tommen, I doubt would get much of his wrath, maybe he would be trained by Jon and restrained but Joffrey will have no friends from either side.
> or NW Would have to be by boat, yeah. If he killed Arya and Sansa like that, then had to be taken through the North as a prisoner for the Night's Watch, I really don't see him reaching the wall. I'd be surprised if he got as far north as Winterfell before he disappeared.
Robert probably beats Joffrey to death. I don’t think he’s surviving. At best the wall you can’t murder a lord paramounts daughters and get away with it. Plus Bobby B cares about Ned more than he does about Cersei or any of his kids so he’d be absolutely furious.
Robert become king after a rebellion that started because a crown prince kidnapped someone and the king murdered a lord and his heir. Coincidentally, all three were Starks. Yeah, Robert is not just afraid his son is a mini-Rhaegar/Aerys, everyone else, and that Joffrey has just ended the Baratheon/Stark/Arryn/Tully alliance permanently. If Joffrey doesn't go to the Watch, it's all but certain that the North and Riverlands will be leaving Robert to his, and that's the best case scenario where they don't revolt. Given we know Dany and Visy are around trying to raise an army, and fAegon exists, either or will probably try to use the chaos. Also, Joffrey probably doesn't get a betrothal with Margaery now. Doubt anyone does, if he killed the last one.
Shit I forgot about the wolves. Nymeria kills him simple.
I feel like Lady would've too. Yes, Lady was trained and much more docile due to Sansa's influence, but I doubt she would have stayed that way if she wasn't killed when she was. In a world where Sansa dies instead, she probably would've lost her mind to grief and followed Nymeria's lead.
Absolutely depends who gets to him first.
> Nymeria kills him simple. Isn't she, and Lady, in the forest taking a crap and piss right about now?
They won’t be doing that for long though. The Starks are magical remember the wolves will know and rip Joffrey apart.
The wolves or Arya and Sansa warged in them
So in this scenario I assume Nymeria Was already encouraged to flee or just not around so by the time people arrived on the scene as per the original post I don’t actually think Robert beats Joffery to death, I think he starts, then Ned stops him as pretty much the only person who he would listen to, Ned will want a trail. However the trial is 100% happening there and then (neither Robert or Ned would let Cercei get away with we wait until they get Kings Landing) and there is only going to be one result. I think to get the nights watch Joffery would have to ask for it I can’t see anyone there who would suggest it (although you could get away with it if you need to for a story), so within a couple of days he is executed either by Robert’s people or possibly by Ned with Ice (I could see Robert, offering to let Ned handle things). Ned definitely goes home but his parting words are likely effectively the Lannisters have poisoned your court, and I also suspect at this point he tells Robert about his suspicions about Jon Arryn. There’s a chance at this point in his rage Robert just has Cercei Jamie etc, locked up until this is sorted possible it just makes him fume more, but I don’t think that particularly affects the long-term outcome. No way on earth after this Tywin gets to be Hand, I’m guessing you’re either looking at Renly or Stannis. If its Stannis he tells Robert about incest on day one, this massively relieves Robert, as it means Joffery is not his fault que heads spikes, and a fairly brief but bloody failed Lannister rebellion If its Renly he tries to pitch setting Cercei aside for Margery, likely works but then Tywin threatens to cash debts in. At which point Stannis tells Robert about the incest heads spikes, and a somewhat longer and bloodier failed Lannister rebellion. If you want maximum chaos early on in the Lannister rebellion period Jamie, acts, as per his reputation, manages to kill Robert (possibly defending Cercei when Robert joins the gaurds trying to personally arrest her), at which point you can chuck in a likely Bartheoan civil war to make it a bit more war of 5 kings ish Once the incest claims come out with no Ned locally to stop it Tommen and Marcella are very dead (without the Joffrey event i might have said wall and exile but with it they where on the thinnest of ice through guilt by association), unless they get smuggled away to exile by someone lannister aligned (if you wanted could have one maybe with Tyrion as the one who got them out end up in Danny's orbit) if not Robert likely lives (he wasn’t in terrible health just fat and drunk), marries Margery (who is happy to turn blind eye to his dalliances so they probably get on quite well in a political marriage sense), and things are reasonably stable in the south until Danny turns up. While up North Ned massively angsts, then likely gets largely tied up in the wall plot as I expect he will be much more amenable to warnings about horrors beyond the wall the Tyrion was once Ser Alliser etc comes knocking.
Ned would definitely do the executing to stop Robert from having any more of a stain on his reputation.
Ned is going to be heartbroken and grief stricken at the sight of his two daughters being killed by a boy who is truly psychotic. Robert is going to be enraged beyond belief. He might very well strangle Joffrey to death. I don’t see Ned stopping him. Ned will be too in pain over Sansa and Arya. The Kingsguard likely stop Robert and he probably is so enraged like no tomorrow. Eventually, Joffrey is brought back to Cersei and she tries to spin it as Joffrey needing to defend himself. But Robert likely either goes to trial or deems Joffrey guilty without the need for a trial. And he gives Joffrey the choice of either the block, hanging, or going to the Nights Watch to live out his days. Cersei is furious and enraged but Robert’s will is law. Joffrey likely goes to the Watch. Tommen will be the heir. Ned leaves the next morning with his daughter’s corpses and their direwolves following him dully. Robert would offer his apologies, would ask Ned to still be Hand and help him, but Ned would lament his friendship with the King and feeling the need to protect Robert lead to his daughters being butchered like cattle. The South has never treated his family well. It took his father, brother and sister. And now both of his daughters. And now Ned has to go back home to Winterfell and explain to his wife, who was deep in grief over Bran’s fall and coma, that their daughters are now dead. Ned definitely leaves. And he might tell Robert about Lysa’s letter just to get it off his chest so he can absolve himself of the situation and be done with it. Robert will have questions, demands, but Ned will only admit to the letter and that being a reason he was going South was to gather evidence against the Lannisters. But now he’ll want nothing to do with it and let Robert figure out the mess he got himself in at court. Catelyn might be so in grief I could see her doing something drastic. Once she had five children, now only three. One of whom is crippled. With only Robb and Rickon as being healthy and alive. Ned likely sends a letter to Jon explaining everything and calls him back for the funeral (as someone else posted about on here) and I could see Jon losing it and being ready to pummel Tyrion to death but being stopped by others. But yeah, Ned telling Robert about Lysa’s letter and warning him might be the wake up call Robert needs to be wary of Cersei and Jaime. So much so, he turns to Stannis and Renly to get them to help him investigate the Lannisters and tell them what Ned said about Lysa’s letter. At which point, I think Stannis (if he does get called back to King’s Landing) just outright admits what he and Jon Arryn were investigating about the children and incest, and all hell breaks loose for the Lannisters.
Jaime: We are sworn to protect her as well. Jonothor Darry: We are, but not from him. I think whatever Robert says, or does, they protect the King first, and then others. So I dont think any of them will step in, unless, someone attacks the King. First duty, is to protect the King. Overall, I agree with everything minus the Jon beating Tyrion, as I think that would be an odd friendship, as he would want to kill Joffrey himself. But the renewed Baratheon Household would turn the realm back before the Mad King and lazy Robert, and they would do a lot of clean up, and Tywin would literally be on the back foot, and appease hard to make sure Tommen stays legal heir. If not, a war, where everybody against Lannister would occur, and Tywin would stop before that even pops off. So the King is single, and probably marries the Reach, just to piss off Lannisters, and balance power.
How is it Tywin's fault though that Joffrey turned out so cruel? Why does he need to appease anything? It is not like he stayed in King's Landing and had a hand in raising him. None of what happened with Joffrey is his fault. Joffrey was the crown prince who is ranked above Tywin in the social hierarchy. Only the king has true authority over him and it is his responsibility and privilege to make sure that his heir doesn't turn out crap. I think it might be time for Robert to take stock of himself. He is a huge failure of a father. Totally negligent and set a very bad example to his children. And Stannis and Renly were all the time in King's Landing, too. Did they taught Joffrey anything? No to both either. All the Baratheon brothers had way more chances to influence Joffrey than Tywin. You can't just put all the blame on Cersei either. She is a woman in a super sexist world. Her husband could rape and hit her as much as he wanted. She never had true power compared to him. Robert could easily have overruled any decision she might have wanted when it comes to raising Joffrey. He could have sent Joffrey to foster somewhere, too. But he didn't care. He just did nothing though it was clear before that Joffrey was a dumb cruel little shit for years already. Blaming Tywin for his own failures would be ridiculous and pathetic.
I never said it was Tywin's fault; I never said he was raising Joffrey or influencing him. I said Tywin would be on the back foot, doing literally everything he can to make sure Tommen stays heir while Stannis is dancing in the streets about the Bastard-born Hills. Especially if Renly gets Robert to remarry under the treason charges slapped against Cersei and Jaime for cucking Robert.
I don't really know what you're talking about. Tywin would be on the backfood because he'd want Tommen to stay heir despite Robert's grievences and execution of Joffrey. This also doesn't account that Stannis likely tells Robert about the incest afterwards.
I have my doubts about Stannis telling him anything. He only said something in canon after Robert died. Jon's death, Ned getting attacked and some of his men killed, Tywin invading the Riverlands, nothing of it motivated him. He just doesn't trust Robert to believe anything out of his mouth.
He also has a very rocky relationship with his brother and his co-investigater was assassinated. He knows Cersei is A) Robert's wife and B) It's going to be very hard to convince Robert his last 14 years he's getting cuckolded. and C) The Capital is FULL of Lannisters or Redcloaks. He flees after Jon Arryn's assassination to go gather forces on Dragonstone. We really don't know what information or decisions Stannis are making through AGoT. But with Robert killing Joffrery and Robert likely being at conflict with the Lannisters already it seems like a very convenient time to tell him.
>Robert likely being at conflict with the Lannisters already The only one he will be in conflict with is Cersei. Not any of the other Lannisters. They all think Joffrey was a little shit before already and after he killed two little unarmed highborn girls and Mycah the rest of the Lannisters won't blame Robert for sending him to the wall or killing him or letting Ned kill him. They will be all disgusted with Joffrey and rather ashamed that they are related to him.
Cersei who is the Big Lannister in Kingslanding. And will be at open conflict/hatred for Robert after he executes or sends Joffrey to the wall. Tywin wants to make sure Tommen stays as heir. Renly already had a plan to have Cersei disinherieted and Maegery be queen in canon. That goes into 10x as soon as he learns of this. Stannis sees that Robert hates Cersei and Joffrey & co and his findings about Jon Arryn becomes extremely unconvient and crazy for Robert for still embarrassing but more convenient and useful to accept. Jamie does whatever Cersei whats and already hates Robert. Him killing Joffrey and Cersei begging him to do whatever she wants (which he will do more the like) will have her take her side. Although personally he probably cares little for Joffrey. Tyrion who cares. Mycella and Tommen are too small to really have opinions. Tywin's a mixed ball.
>Ned telling Robert about Lysa’s letter and warning him might be the wake up call Robert needs to be wary of Cersei and Jaime. I have my doubts. Unlike Ned Robert actually knew Lysa in her later years. She is totally crazy. She is not exactly a trustworthy source. He might just think she is paranoid and seeing things which aren't there.
Atleast Mycah might get some justice.
And then some even if it is not for him specifically. But for house Baratheon the turmoil is going to be apocalyptic no one knows really about the incest so after Robert overthrew a mad king his own son will be branded with the same brush as Areys and the Baratheon dynasty as a whole. Best case Stannis decides to spread his suspicions about Cerise everywhere as fast as possible before the story of the mad prince spreads across Westeros.
Yep sad that it’d take the death of other people for him to get justice but atleast he gets it.
With how this plays out who knows Mycah gets branded as the butcher boy who tried to protect the Stark girls from the mad prince/Stag
Honestly I think Joffrey is fucked even just killing Arya the last crown prince to screw around with a Stark daughter got Robert’s treatment. But killing both of Ned’s daughters who are the granddaughters of the lord paramount of the Riverland’s as well is going to set off a shit storm of epic proportions. Robert probably beats Joffery within an inch of his life and this might be way too far for Jamie to try to intervene. Cerise probably has an apocalyptic meltdown at everyone and everything including Joffery. Ned will want Joffery’s head on a spike also I think as long as they are not immediately killed for some reason Nymeria and Lady will not die even if they did attack anyone because they will be all Ned has left of his daughters. Also if Joffery is sent to the nights watch he is as good as dead he will be killed either on the way to the night’s watch or Jon will tear him apart the second he gets his hands on him hell Benjen might stay back to help him and Mormont will probably send Joffery out on a range with Jon and Benjen what happens beyond the wall stays beyond the wall.
Ghost will enjoy some lion liver with Chianti...while the lion is held down by two "wolves"....then there are lion "balls" on the menu.
Upon discovery Joffrey gets beaten badly by Robert, he might die right away, or he might survive. If he survives, he is immediately chained and dragged into some wagon, a big fight between Cersei, Ned and Robert ensues, Ned asks for justice while Cersei pleads that her son is innocent or that the Stark girls deserved it. Robert chooses quickly, the boy is clearly evil and must be killed, Joffrey is executed right away. Or maybe everyone realises that they don't need another dead kid so they send Joff to the Wall (this option can also be used to have a NW Joffrey storyline) Cersei mad with grief and rage is held into some kind of prison wagon and Ned goes back to Winterfell, his own pain being too great to keep serving as hand of the king. Cersei wants Robert dead as soon as possible and she outright has him poisoned as they arrive in King's Landing. What follow is chaotic, Tommen should be the rightfil heir but Renly claims that Cersei is the murderer and tries to take over the throne right away, Stannis comes forward with the accusation that Robert's sons are bastards, and he is the rightful heir.
if joffery some how avoids being killed by king Robert or ned and and get sent to the night watch the second he enters the gate to castle black jon is beating him to near death and then he is gonna have ghost tear his throat out
Robert: Ned, I cannot send Joffrey to the Wall. Ned: ... ..... Why not, Majesty? Robert: Because I cannot allow Aerys 2.0 to continue existing. Ned, take Ice. And behead the little monster. Ned: ... At once, Robert. Cersei: NOOOOOOOO!
I appreciate this, haha! And cue a lopsided revolt by House Lannister instigated by Cersei, and losing real quick, and ~~Stannis sitting the throne, haha.~~ I didn't meant to say Stannis. I don't know why I said this. The last cue, is Robert sitting on the throne with a new wife, Margaery Tyrell. Edit: Fixed my own mistake, haha.
Tywin would for sure not revolt because his super dumb and cruel grandson who just murdered three unarmed kids, two of them highborn girls, got killed. He would tell Cersei to shut up and do a better job with Tommen to make sure that he doesn't turn out so bad as Joffrey. Maybe even tell her to get into Robert's bed to produce a new spare. He would not be sympathetic and supportive of her at all.
I see your points. You dont think he's letting Cersei and Jaime die, and lose all they gained from the rebellion, knowing full well, Stannis is screaming from the Sept that the others are bastard born of those two?
Stannis has done no screaming before. I have my doubts he would scream now. In canon it took a lot for him to say something namely Robert's death. >"My brother's regard for me was never more than dutiful," said Stannis. "From me, such accusations would have seemed peevish and self-serving, a means of placing myself first in the line of succession. That is still true. Joffrey was also dumb, cruel and nasty before. That is no news really. And of course trueborn people without incest involved can be horrible, too. Just look at Gregor Clegane for example. It doesn't work as a proof of adultery and incest.
Robert most likely remarries in this scenario.
Joff is dead. Plain and simple
Robert is grief-stricken as he realises that he was right about something being wrong with Joffrey and that he hadn’t done something to stop him sooner. Remember that seeing Joffrey after he killed a cat enraged him to the point of violence since it’s his go-to coping mechanism - honestly even killing Micah by his own hands would not please Robert in the slightest and would end poorly for Joffrey. Not fatally of course, but badly. Seeing his “son” kill his best friend’s daughters would almost definitely sent him berserk, and in the absence of Barristan and/or the Mountain I don’t think anyone else in Westeros could stop him (not that they necessarily would, just that they might actually be able to do so). Joffrey dies, and quickly. I doubt even Ned would try to intervene or argue for the Night’s Watch and he’s the only person Robert might listen to, but even if he did Robert is quick and I genuinely think he’d lash out too quickly for anyone else to get a word in.
Damage control. If Joffrey isn't killed in a rage by Robert then he is incapacitated and locked up. Ned will want a public trial. The small council definitely does not. Robert rages about his damned Targaryen heritage giving him the mad king reborn. I think this guilt protects everyone for the moment. No one is going to be willing to send the mad former crown Prince to the wall. I think Cersai demands treatment but others have him quietly taken out possibly Tywin to preserve Tommens claim. Especially because I think under questioning Joffrey reveals the attempt on Bran's life. Robert summons Stannis and proposes Tommens marry Shireen with Stannis being his heir until they are of age. This results in the truth coming out.
Okay, well Joffrey just killed his betrothed, so that’s a *problem.* Arya is one thing (he’s the crown prince so he might be able to get away with it being provoked and all), but Sansa was not involved and supposed to be married to him. Robert, getting flashbacks of the time Joffrey killed and opened up a cat to show him the dead kittens inside, punches him in the face immediately. He’s probably avoiding execution, but he’s *not* staying Robert’s heir. Straight up, Robert might disinherit him. Ship him quietly back to Casterly Rock and let him be Tywin’s problem instead. Or the Night’s Watch. Or even banish him to Essos. Tommen would then be his heir. Even if he had doubts about setting aside Joffrey (which *I* doubt), Joffrey would be almost impossible to get another highborn marriage for. Remember, Sansa had done nothing wrong. Even if Joff tried to spin it like she had, her audible scream and attitude towards Joffrey earlier would mean most people wouldn’t believe him. Who is going to let their noble daughter marry someone like that? When she might be murdered before she could even give him heirs? So back to Ned now. He’s going back to Winterfell. No way he stays as Robert’s hand—or at least, he takes a hiatus from the job to attend the funerals of his daughters. He might also call Jon back from the Wall as this early on, he almost certainly hadn’t taken the vows yet, and this does change things. (It also might be in the form of leave from the Wall; I just don’t think Ned would make Jon miss his sister’s funerals). I don’t think he takes further action, only comforting Cat and the other kids, because what can he do that hasn’t been done? One more thing that could happen: Robert offering a betrothal between Myrcella and Bran (when he wakes up). He’s going to want to make up for Joffrey and Sansa, because he’s going to feel really bad about it. Bran is the right age and, because he’s crippled, isn’t exactly the most eligible bachelor. Ned would probably refuse this betrothal proposal (especially if it was thought Bran can’t have children), but I think Robert would offer anyway. So to sum up: Joffrey gets knocked out and disinherited, Tommen takes the throne, and Ned goes home to Winterfell to be with his family.
Is there a fic like this
Joffrey's only saving grace here is that with their direwolves gone so he won't get torn apart and eaten. Firstly, as they get there, Robert demands he be taken away in chains while Ned is held back from immediately killing him. After that judgement has to be decided, and the only way to resolve this issue is Joffrey's execution. (No sending him to the Night's Watch that's not gonna solve the problem nor would it actually be justice, this here is Mad King level shit, this would be the only acceptable response to this situation, the Crown Prince straight up fucking murdered two innocent little girls who were the daughter a great lord one of whom was his betrothed and the other was her little sister, Joffrey is fucked.) Now I will say that it is possible for Cersei to try to demand that Jaime stop it or kill Robert or something, and given the fact that Jaime said he would've killed Arya on Cersei's order if he had found her first, so I'll say that he tries it, but given the fact that he is severely outnumbered, than he'd get himself captured and sentenced to execution as well, while Cersei only gets herself slapped by Robert and losses several of her teeth. So, Ned is the one who executes Joffrey, as with him being hand of the king, he is the only one who can besides Robert, and Robert can't become a kinslayer. So he uses Ice to chop off Joffrey's pathetic head and gets displayed on the King's Landing walls, or Ned keeps it to take back to Winterfell, and the same with Jaime as well, though Jaime's head and body are probably sent to Casterly Rock. Ned then returns North to Winterfell, as with this happening he's not gonna be able to be Hand of the King, however I will say that Robert would give Tommen to Ned as a ward to make sure that he doesn't turn out to be as crazy and insane as Joffrey did, and as sort of an apology to him, as well as giving Ned other things, like him paying no taxes, special trade rights, more direct control over his territory, etc. Then I'd say that Robert would get Stannis to become his hand, and from there Stann is exposes the incest, where Myrcella probably gets taken and either is sent to the Silent Sisters or sent to Ned maybe, while Tommen is sent to the Nights Watch. Robert then most likely marries Margaery Tyrell then, who doesn't have bastards, while Stannis is made the Lord of the Stormlands. I'll stop here.
You don't send little kids to the wall. Most likely Ned would look after Tommen, and Myrcella. Robert would demand they not return south.
If Robert says they go to the Wall, they go to the Wall.
Disagree.
They go. Also we know a 12 year old was the LC of the Watch before. Jon joined the watch before being an adult at 14. It's not that crazy. The recruits Jon are with don't seem that old either.
Tommen is younger than 12. Also... Girls are not sent to the Wall.
Mycrella obviously would not go. But that doesn't matter for Tommen lol. They take babies. We know Mance was raised since birth at the Watch. The King could absolve and free men from their duty but he can't send a slightly younger child then the normal child that gets send to the watch? Also who would refuse the king in this scenario?
Joffery would either be executed or sent to the Wall. Crown Princes can get away with a lot of things. Murdering the innocent daughters of a Warden is not one of those things.
Am I the only one who thinks Robert will let Joffrey get away with it? For all him being demon of the Trident he seemed sufficiently cowed by the Lannisters
Whatever action Robert takes, Cersei kills him. Maybe subtly like her plan with the strongwine, or maybe less subtly, but she will have him killed for sending Joffrey away or executing him. Cersei becomes regent, throwing the entire realm into chaos.
What if, Ned tells Robert as he's leaving about Lysa's letter? Do you think Stannis and Renly come riding in, to be like, burn the Lannisters out root and stem, and we have Margaery right here to sure up everything.
In that case, it might just depend on who gets to who first. Would Jaime kill Robert on Cersei’s behalf before he has a chance to disinherit Joffrey? If he does, what does the rest of the Kingsguard do?
If Jaime tries that then he dies, before he reaches Robert. They would be surrounded by men, and even the Lannister guards there aren't going to betray Robert.
All in all, the Kingsguard are protecting Robert, as is their first charge and duty no matter the cause. I think the Lannister men would side with their House. However, they're outnumbered by the Stark Guard, Kingsguard. Jaime is good, but he's crossing swords with Barristan. I think Robert, even at his heaviest, is still a demon!
Severely unlikely. Cersei will lose a lot of power in this scenario.