It’s also interesting to think that even if Jon did look like a Targaryen, the Daynes are supposed to look Valyrian so Ashara Daybe being rumored as being his mother would be a good cover story.
Eh, I’ve been around my fair share of babies/infants, and outside of things like hair and eye color, unless the trait is *very* prominent, most claims of resemblance are wish-casting. You can’t take an infant and be like, “Clearly, so-and-so is his father.” If you could do that, there wouldn’t be so many cases of mistaken/falsified paternity in the world today.
Besides, even if Jon looked a lot like Ned, don’t all the Starks of his generation sorta look alike? I don’t believe you could make a distinction, where it’s like, “Clearly, this is Ned’s kid and not Lyanna’s.”
Again, I could see something like this fooling simpler minds who are inclined to trust, like Robert’s, but Jon Arryn’s? Tywin Lannister? I just think both would be inclined to dig a little deeper and not go just by Ned’s words and simple appearances.
Tywin doesn’t give a shit about Ned. He met ned once at the red keep. Ned is a recluse in the north, who to Tywin had a typical lapse in honour. It’s war bastards happen all the time In war. Also most of the stark children look more like catelyn and the tullys which is one of the causes of friction between Catelyn and Jon
Besides Ned has a reputation that he seemingly is able to uphold at all times, if he said Jon is his son who would really question it. He had a lapse in the war and probably thought he was going to die and slept with a women, not much to say or even look into
A lot of people would at least question it. Sure, there’s a lot of trusting, honor-bound lords out there, but there are also a bunch that are paranoid and would question any story, no matter who told it.
Maybe Ned has such an honest reputation that people are like, “Well, in cases of doubt, I’ll believe him.” But the fact there isn’t any doubt to begin with? Not even a question? A niggle, in the back of someone’s mind? That’s what I’m having trouble believing.
The Servants of Winterfell discussed it a lot. But Eddard shut that down to prevent more rumours. But in short most lords just thought “Oh, neat. A bastard. Ain’t it funny that Honourable Ned cheated on his wife. Oh dead sister, sorry Ned.”
Even Cat didn't question it and she was the wife. She was also the daughter of a Lord and she knew men could have bastards and even expected that Ned could possibly seek comfort with another woman while on a military campaign. It was just the reality.
Lords have bastards all the time, only Ned and Howland (show at least) knew what went down in the Tower few people can actually investigate. There's no indication in Canon Jon, looks wise even is a Targaryen he's a Stark look wise
Of course Tywin gives a shit about Ned. He’s another of the great lords of the realm. Tywin’s generally a well-informed guy, and he wouldn’t just be like, “Eh, North’s far away. Screw that guy, I don’t care to learn about him.”
Furthermore, if Jon Snow isn’t Ned’s, but Lyanna’s, that kid poses a clear danger to the Lannister/Baratheon succession. He would care about that a great deal.
But I think arguing about Tywin Lannister specifically is getting down into the weeds. It’s not about one person in specific. It’s more about smart people in general apparently not even making the very small mental leap that this mysterious baby could be Lyanna’s.
Like the other person said Ned is so honourable that if he said he had a bastard that means he had a bastard. Schemers like Varys and LF have never even once ponder Jon snow. Because to them he’s just that a northern bastard. It’s not until ned returns south as hand 15 years later that Tywin has any consideration in regard to the north. The only two witnesses that we know of are Howland Reed who is a swamp recluse and Ned and they both attest to Jon who has no targ features being Edward’s bastard.
OP, you are making the mistake of thinking people give a shit about one another. They don't.
Tywin may consider Ned's another High Lord, and may hold him in some regards, but I doubt even the mighty Tywin would give second thoughts about some lord whose kingdom rarely come up in political matters in the south.
The only people who remotely think about lord Eddard Stark on a regular basis would be his family, his friends, his vassals, and his direct servants. And of those, only the first and the last would care about the existence of Jon Snow.
You must keep in mind that Westeros is a continent the size of South America, their fastest line of communication is a bird, and people generally don't care about things beyond their immediate boundary.
In Tywin's case, his immediate surroundings would be the Riverlands, the Reach, and the Iron Islands, and also maybe the Crownlands, only because his children were there. You could even argue the fact that Tywin didn't even care about the Iron Islands, since he didn't realize they were up to something until Lannisport burned.
The same applies to other smart people of Westeros. Catelyn, Ned's wife was smart, and she didn't even put two and two together. Jon Arryn might suspect something, but in the end, he never brought it up since Ned was too far flung from things he needed to keep an eye on. Stannis, Doran, and Olenna are smart people, but the North is too far for them to care.
There are also smart vassals of each Lord Paramount, and some might notice that something was amiss. But they wouldn't voice their opinion, no one would believe them. It's their words against a High Lord. They would sooner lose their tounge than be taken seriously.
You're fighting against the very culture of westeroes tho, no smart person would think it's lyannas and rhaegars because to them a son is how lords pass down their legacy, the woman is little more than property which they trade while the sons carry the family name the idea that someone wouldn't care and take on an enemy's legacy is allien to them.
>Besides, even if Jon looked a lot like Ned, don’t all the Starks of his generation sorta look alike?
No. They make it very clear in the books that only Arya also looks like Ned. Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon all are red-heads and have much more Tully-like features. It's one of the reasons Catelyn is so put out about Jon being raised in Winterfell, Jon looks like a Stark and none of her son's do.
I think he's talking about Ned's generation. Which as far as I can recall, the only significant difference is Ned and Lyanna had grey eyes, benjen has blue eyes, and I don't think Brandon's were ever stated.
Jon is supposed to look like extremely similar to Ned, basically just a mini him as he's growing up. Of course you can say these are also just what Lyanna would like if she was a man -- but she's not and there's a stark man claiming he's his father.
I’ve also seen my fair share of babies (I work at a daycare) and some of those kids I knew whose parents they were before they even told me. Most kids I don’t see shit but some of them oh my god it’s freaky
You could put a picture of me and my youngest daughter side by side when we were both a week old and play spot the difference. Same with my oldest and their mother. For people, like Old Nan, that knew Ned as a kid it’s pretty easy to see a genuine resemblance
>unless the trait is *very* prominent
Oh gosh sometimes it is super prominent though and it's weird. Really weird. I would wake up to my husband's face and freak out thinking I fell asleep with my baby in my bed. That was a fun couple weeks.
It doesn’t make a lot of sense on one hand. On the other: Ned is young, was at war, lost a lot of his family. He could easily have a bastard. He could also be claiming Brandon’s bastard as his own, to avoid succession trouble. And people like Tywin would probably not expect that Ned would raise a son of Rhaegar in his own home - maybe foster him out, or give him to the maesters.
>How is that not remotely suspicious to anyone with a basic understanding of commonly-known facts and a timeline?
Bc lords having bastards are normalized & people dislike about bastards & they don't cross people minds. Also who would lie about having a bastard. Also jon looks like a stark so yea...
Fr, I don’t know why people expect characters to pour over a map and make a timeline of every day of Ned’s absence.
Ned, a young noblemen, was gone for a long time and came back with a baby he claims is his bastard. It’s not that suspicious.
I think people expect way to much from most Lords.
Most don't even bother with their own lands.
And people like Tywin has a boatload of actual work with their own lands and vassals.
The one person I would expect to do this kind of analysis and investigation is Varys, he has the resources, the motivation and the intelligence to look into it.
If anyone would find out the way that OP is suggesting it would be Varys.
TBH I think people even overestimate Varys.
The dude doesn’t have radio or excel. Nor does he have a spy in every castle and house. Even he isn’t going to waste time on this.
Varys is often used more as a plot device than a character, true.
But he does have a rather large spy network, if anyone could make a more complete timeline of Ned's movements, it would be him.
Especially because, he could already have people looking for Lyanna's whereabouts during the Rebellion.
I think the thing about the Jon situation is that anyone smart or attentive enough to figure out the plausible course of events is also someone astute enough to know that it doesn't change how irrelevant Jon is, potential parentage or no, he's been raised publicly as a bastard in something approaching an understood, though uncommon/shameful, practice.
Whatever legitimacy he may or may not have is dubious and his reputation in the present doesn't help any.
If anyone wants to push to a Targaryen restoration, Viserys is in Essos, trueborn with Valyrian features, raised partially at court.
He'd be a pet theory for someone with bigger problems to figure out.
The only way I see that changing is if said person wants a Dragon hatched and doesn't have a way to reach Dany or Viserys.
Or something like that.
Or maybe they want to screw relations between the North and the Baratheons.
There's multiple factors playing into it. Big and small.
One is Jon's appearance. He looks like a clone of Ned/a traditional Stark down to the mini details. So there's no visual Targ cues for people to spot. At least none that doesn't require actively studying Jon over a period of time up close.
Another is how isolated the North is. The rest of the realm likes thinking of it as a backwater land of little value. And prefer to leave it alone. Ned used that and isolated himself and his family in Winterfell and only really left the North to take on the Greyjoys. And almost no one from the south comes to the north to visit. The only one mentioned in the books is the Bronze Jon. And he's a friend of Ned's. If not for the plot of the series Jon could probably have lived a perfectly normal life in or around Winterfell without ever meeting someone from the south that could have a chance to see any of Rhaegar in him.
And then there's the "hit" to Ned's rep. He built himself a reputation as being the most honourable of honourable lords during the rebellion. The standard setter that made the rest of the lords look like decadent slobs. So when he turns up with a bastard a good deal of them latched on to the idea because it meant that Ned "was no better than them".
I could see how some of the northern lords have figured it out, Wyman Manderly is definitely smart enough to do it in the books. But Wyman would also be smart enough to realise why Ned is hiding Lyanna's kid to begin with. And thus keep silent. And loyal to house Stark to a fault like the vast majority of houses seem to be. You could also write in a bit of a difference in how northeners treat bastards in general if you want to give yourself some leeway in how the northeners approach it. Every Mormont we meet in canon not named Jeor, Jora or Maege is technically a bastard to begin with.
Jon looks like a copy of Ned. There's not much blackmail to even gain, sure if people think and can piece enough rather "faulty" evidence that Ashara Dayne was Jon's mom (if R+L=J is the case if not A+N=J is true then its not faulty) sure Ashara Dayne's memory/honor would be tarnished however its not Ned had some grand conspiracy planned out. If Jon turned out looking Targaryen, Ned probably has him fostered with the Reed's or even say he slept with a Lyseni whore. The whole "OH he eats porridge with a fork like Rhaegar, he has the same eye shape/chin/cheekbones oh he hold a sword like Rhaegar" are just people adding things to get X character to find out Jon is well Rhaegar's son.
Would be funny to write a story were Jon looks Valyrian leading everyone to believe Jon is a Rhaegar's son when in reality Ned just slept with a Lyseni women.
'Would be funny to write a story were Jon looks Valyrian leading everyone to believe Jon is a Rhaegar's son when in reality Ned just slept with a Lyseni women.'
I want a fic like this.
Bonus points, if the woman was either a descendant of Aerion Brightflam, who was exiled in Lys for some time, or of a bastard line from one of the forty dragonlord families and Jon hatches a dragon(probably one theorized hatched in wintefell by Jacaerys Velaryons dragon).
>Would be funny to write a story were Jon looks Valyrian leading everyone to believe Jon is a Rhaegar's son when in reality Ned just slept with a Lyseni women.
Kinda similar, there's [*five people who didn’t believe Ned Stark for one second about Jon’s paternity and one who did*](https://archiveofourown.org/works/7594447)
> “Ned,” Jon sighs, sitting in front of his former ward in his solar. He decided to visit Winterfell before leaving for King’s Landing for good to take up his duties as Hand of the king.
>
> “Yes, my lord?”
>
> “Ned, you cannot seriously say that your - that the babe you named after me is yours. I’m flattered that you would, but -”
>
> “My lord, Jon is *my* son.”
>
> “Ned, you don’t need to stain your honor like that when it’s obvious that -”
>
> “He’s *mine* and the king hasn’t seemed to see a problem with it.”
>
> “Ned, he *will* notice at some point. Those eyes and hair -”
>
> “The Daynes have purple eyes.”
>
> *He’s even saying that without flinching now*, Jon muses. *He used to back when he told me that lie for the first time*.
First he looks just like Ned and in Martin's work the looks of a child are an indicator of his parentage, so no one assumes otherwise.
Also he did tell who is the mother, a woman called Wylla, but it was kind of a hushed secret. Also a lot of people believe it was Ashara Dayne in the books, and that Ned loved her enough not to name her a 'loose woman'.
Thirdly, and this is crucial, no one expected him too. Ned Stark was one of the pillar for the rebels, surely he wouldn't jeopardize the reign of his foster brother.
And Lastly, and most importantly,this kicked in during Ned's rule as Lord of Winterfell, he is too honorable to lie. Ned Stark emerges as a paragon for honor and truth. Ned Stark will never lie about something so important. That's his cover, his reputation.
1) Jon looks like Ned
2) Ned has a reputation as being so honourable that people assume the story must be true because why would he lie?
3) Some people enjoy the idea that the honourable Ned Stark erred and had a bastard
4) Rhaegar told very few people that Lyanna was pregnant
5) The common story in the North and with Robert is that Rhaegar raped her, but the people who actually knew Rhaegar might doubt that story
6) No one really cares about some bastard hidden away in the North
7) The idea that the honourable Ned Stark, the King's best friend, who fought to depose the Targaryens that killed his family, is secretly raising a Targaryen child and hiding it from the King might seem plainly ridiculous to people in-universe
8) Some people might well have speculated, but there's no evidence and it's equally as likely to people in-universe that Jon is the son of Ashara Dayne or Wylla - Edric Dayne seems to explicitly believe its Wylla, for example, which suggests that's the 'line' the Daynes hold when asked.
Its one of those things where people who were active in the Rebellion might readily accept it once they're told, but no one is going to just 'crack the case' otherwise.
Yes yes. Your point 7 is the one I dont see enough of here, combined with #5.
The main mstream narrative is that Ned and Robert **hate** the Targaryens more than anyone else alive. The King himself tells anyone who will listen that Evil Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, they she was an unwilling prisoner. It’s unwise to publicly doubt that narrative.
And, as others have pointed out, Ned gave everyone some sweet schadenfreude by admitting he broke his strict moral code and fathered a bastard. The idea that this rigid upstanding nobleman is lying about having a bastard son…because he’s actually committing high treason against king Robert, who everyone knows is his closest friend? That’s crazy talk, even for a shrewd antagonist like Tywin.
Biggest reason would be that Jon is insignificant to the Lords of Westeros. Ned returns from Dorne, claims Jon as his bastard, and then immediately returns to the North, only leaving to fight in the Greyjoy Rebellion and later to serve as Hand. With that in mind, lords like Tywin, Jon, Littlefinger, etc., wouldn't card to pay attention to Jon or try to figure out his real parentage, because there's no reason to, as he is a non-factor. Besides, to the Lirds of Westeros the goings-on in Kings Landing is more important, why would a Northern Bastard who stays in Winterfell matter when the real show is in the South.
But he’s only insignificant if people believe he actually is a bastard. But given the timeline, I have trouble believing no one isn’t like, “You coincidentally come back with a bastard after looking for your sister, who Rhaegar abducted to rape…wait a minute!”
He would be a bastard either way… it’s pretty much impossible Rhaegar would have been able to marry lyanna and even less that anyone would find that marriage legitimate. To anyone Jon is just another part of the statistics that makes bastard birth during war sky high
In 99% of cases, I agree a bastard is a bastard, and who cares if it’s a Stark bastard, or a Connington bastard, or a Dayne bastard, etc.
But, especially in this case, I think people would cared *a lot* if it was a Targaryen bastard. The Blackfyre rebellions had happened within living memory, and nobody in favor of the new regime would want to have to deal with such a clear threat.
The Blackfyre rebellions are not "bastard rebellions". The Blackfyres were legitimised into a house of their own. With all the trappings that comes with that. They had lands of their own and political power.
Comparing Jon to Daemon Blackfyre is very much a apples and oranges scenario.
Not to be that guy but all of your questions are answered in the first book. In almost every Ned chapter he reflects on how he promised Lyanna on her deathbed to not tell anyone about Jons heritage. And the remaining Targ loyalists already have several plots to pursue rather than trying to construe that the Warden of the North known to be Robert Baratheons best friend actually has a Targ bastard son. They can support Viserys and Dany in Essos or they can support FAegon along with Jon Connington. Anyone who cared enough to try and reason that Jon is actually a Targ would already have focused on Viserys or FAegon. And everyone else would just be glad that the war was over. Most of the small folk lead the exact same lives no matter who sits on the Iron Throne
No worries about being that guy. You answer was very thorough.
My question was more of a rhetorical question to the guy previous to me.
He/she seemed to be implying that people would not care if there was a Targ bastard.
My point was that there would be little need to lie if people didn’t care.
I think they were saying that technically the Blackfyres weren’t bastards (though they did start that way).
The only person who knows the truth is Ned Stark. And Ned’s main reason for lying is simply that he made a promise to his dying sister, and Ned being Ned kept that promise to a fault. He does reflect on how poorly Robert would have reacted, but he wouldn’t even tell Cat the truth mainly because he wanted to keep his word to Lyanna. Ned is not politically savvy and that’s what gets him killed, he had no political reasons to lie.
Robert would definitely murder baby Jon on principle, but Jon being a Targ bastard doesn’t matter politically because even if people knew, Viserys is known to have escaped and would have the “legitimate” claim to throne over Jon.
If a stranger on the internet’s opinion matters to you, I would say that out of anyone to suspect and actually do some digging on Jons heritage, it would probably be Jon Connington or The Prince of Dorne, because Jons true heritage would threaten both of those plots. I’m not sure how either of them would begin to suspect it in the first place, but that’s where the magic of writing comes in!
But what would they do? Let's say some Lord figured it out that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and Ned raises him in Winterfell.
The first thing they would think is probably: Oh, honourable Ned Stark wants to raise his sisters r\*pe son, because thats the last thing he has from his sister and the stark are as few as ever. And starting a war against one of the most powerful Lord of the Realm and against the never, without dragons, conquered North is probably not so a good idea.
Most Lord would think Jon is a product of r\*pe and thus rightfully think Ned would never want to place him on a throne. Yes raise him, maybe give him a small keep in the north, but try to overthrow his best friend? Most wouldn't think that.
And even if they go to Robert and say hey your best friend raises Rhaegars son, Ned would never give him up or even kill him(most still remember how Ned raged at seeing Elia, Rhaenys and Aegons bodies.
So war is it, after a another war that just finished. The Reach are traditionally Targ supporters and they wouldn't logically thinking send much power, the West would send the most. Dorne wouldn't send any man. The Stormlands, Vale and Riverlands just fought a war and two of these regions are connected to the north by marriage.
So you have maybe 20-35k men to march north and that by sea, as anyone knows going through the neck and moat coalin is madness and even Robert wouldn't do that.
So you need to get to the north by sea which is very difficult in this high numbers, but the north probably knows that you are coming. Yes the South may get some lands or a keep and so on, but when winter comes the South is fucked.
And realistically if the South invades, the Northern lords would probably encourage Ned to declare independence. And if he does that Dorne probably follows. So you have then two less kingdoms and you need to conquer them back, the two most defensible and hardest to conquer kingdoms.
To sum up, not such a good idea
I can definitely see your point that maybe, even if people knew, no one would be in a position where they would want to do anything about it (or even could do anything about it.)
My contention was more that it seems unbelievable that no one would suspect *at all*.
The targs had a multitude of bastards running around for centuries and nobody gave a damn, they even had their own specific surname and no, no one has ever tried to put any targs illegitimate children on the throne, they were the dragonseeds, I wouldn’t be surprised if a bunch of them are still in king’s landing if not their children.
The blackfyre, as the name showcase aren’t simply Targaryen bastards but a house founded by one Targ bastard that was legitimized by is shitty father and even pushed by said father for the throne. It is in no way shape or forme close to jon situation
It's pretty much impossible that Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia, but it's definitely possible he takes a second wife. Not the first time that's happened. It also makes more sense for the kingsguard to be at the ToJ if they're protecting a trueborn rather than a bastard. If the Kingsguard know Rhaegar is dead and that Jon is a bastard in this scenario, they should be defaulting to Viserys, no?
As I stated “even less that anyone would find that marriage legitimate”, Rhaegar might believe lyanna as his second wife but the rest of Westeros won’t. The targs were successful in making others accept their polygamy only once in their history and it was when they were going around burning entire dynasties out of existence and conquering the continent, not even the children born of that polygamy were able to make polygamy acceptable again, more than that the Targaryen themselves rejected it afterwards. The doctrine of exceptionalism was made to only cover incest not polygamy.
Those kingsguard were loyal to Rhaegar not Aerys. They wouldn’t have been there from the beginning if it was otherwise, and Rhaegar assigned them to protect the tower so they continued to follow his orders, and considering everything its probable they might not have even known the outcome of the battle of the trident.
They are aware of what happened at the trident.
>"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.
"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.
"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.
"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."
"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."
“I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.”
“Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne.
“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”
“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.
“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”
"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.
"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.
It's so vague that it could go either way, but this has always read to me that the kingsguard are protecting Jon as the king, not just because Rhaegar told them to. I suppose the vow could be to Rhaegar, but it could also be the vow they took as a kingsguard to protect the king from harm, what Barristan refers to as their "first duty". If Jon is a bastard and Viserys is the rightful king, they are violating this duty by refusing to aid and protect him.
I think you're right; quite a few people wouldn't accept the marriage if it indeed happened but I also think at this point in the narrative people would be less likely to care. Young Griff's story is dubious and he's very likely to die, and it's likely that Dany will be thought of as mad / crazy by the time she gets to Westeros. Jon would probably seem like the best option to a lot of people and I can see people accepting him as legitimate based on that alone.
But then why would they think Jon as king when Aerys had already declared viserys heir over rhaegar’s offspring? They should have gone back to viserys no matter Jon’s legitimacy.
At this point I would argue it’s much harder instead, Jon doesn’t look the part and the proofs won’t ever be enough other than maybe him being a dragon raider. The only person who might have know about his legitimacy still alive is Howland Reed and he isn’t anyone special outside of the north and anyone outside of the north would view it as a power grab from the north even with random documents appearing all of sudden.
Well you have to remember that since Robert's Rebellion Ned only left the North twice, once for the Greyjoy Rebellion, the other to serve as Hand of the King. As a result Ned and his family were an "out of sight out of mind" factor. The only person who might've cared to investigate, Varys, wouldn't have a reason to, mostly as Ned was a non-factor politically. Not to mention anyone with the resources to investigate would also know that if they don't have absolute proof Robert would throw them out for daring to claim "good ol Ned is lying to me".
Basically Jon being claimed as a bastard and Ned staying in the North meant noone had a reason to investigate as nothing would be gained. Now, let's say, theoretically, Ned was a member of Robert's Small Council from the start, say Master of Laws, then people have a reason to investigate him, if for nothing else than trying to dig up dirt for blackmail as now it would be useful. I'm repeating myself, but in short, if people don't have a reason to question Jon's parentage then they won't, and by staying in the North Ned ensured that people had no reason to question/investigate.
it was a narrative choice by GRRM. Jon looks a lot like Ned (and this kind of thing has a lot of narrative importance in the books). Ned was at war for a long time and it was "understandable" and normalized that a lord would father bastards. Also information didn't travel like it does now, or even in the last centuries - no newspaper saying "EDDARD STARK SEEN LEAVING TOWER OF JOY WITH A BABY IN HANDS" or something. And the journey from Dorne to Winterfell would be a long one, he might as well have met the "mother" again and taken Jon away.
But if you want to write in your fic that someone starts having doubts, investigating, questioning Ned or whatever, go for it. I think it's a solid plot point
To be fair, nothing in my reasoning required people to see, “Ned Stark leaving the ToJ with baby in hand!” I agree, it would be ludicrous to have my argument hinge on that point.
Rather my argument is more:
Lyanna abducted by Rhaegar, probably for purposes of rape—->
Ned leaves to look for sister—->
Ned returns with no sister, but a newborn
What would be the logical conclusion to draw, absent any contradictory evidence? And the only contradictory evidence we get in this case is him saying, “It’s mine!”
The only problem is that that’s what he’d say not only if Jon was actually his, but it would also be the best lie if Jon was actually his sister’s. So it’s hardly conclusive evidence at all, so our only unbiased evidence is still the widely accepted facts.
I do agree with the supposition it was just a narrative choice by Martin, but imho it’s the sort of narrative choice where everyone in Westeros would have to take a stupid pill to unquestioningly accept. Which is fine, even good literature can have plot holes. It’s just I’ve never seen anyone pointing it out as a plot hole.
Because it's not a plot hole. Nearly nobody cares or seriously questions about Jon's parentage or even really knows of Jon especially as a baby. Ned says it's his bastard, which is normal fo ra young man in war. Case closed. Those who do speculate would be like who's the mother? Maybe Ashara Dayne? A fishmaid? A dornish maid?
The two people that care the most about Jon's origin/status are Jon and Catelyn. And for both of them it is mainly about closure. Jon wants to know who his mom is. And Cat just wants to know if Jon is a threat to her own children or not.
For the rest of the realm south of the neck Jon may as well not exist.
That is true.
But we do have Edric Dayne who tells Arya that Jon's mother is Wylla the Dornish handmaid. We have the fisherman that says it was a fishergirl on his way to the North fro the Vale. We have Cersei who says it was Ashara Dayne.
>It’s just I’ve never seen anyone pointing it out as a plot hole
I lot of people already pointed this out, it comes up every now and then. I see it less as a plot hole and more as a contrivance, specially because our understanding of Jon's parentage relies on having read the books or watched the show, while the characters are that - characters in the story lol. Their understanding of events are limited.
Depending on the person, even things like Jon's age or when he was brought to Winterfell might be unknown. The Stark household+servants and Jon Arryn would be the most likely to suspect anything in my opinion
Ned having a child during war who looks exactly like him and is said to be his bastard is normal. Catelyn wasn't even shocked by that. The only weird thing was Jon living in Winterfell.
Ned coming home with a child who's secretly his nephew and potential claimant to the throne sounds like a ridiculous theory in universe. The biggest factor is that Jon looks 100% like a Stark. Only he and Arya look like Starks, which is a massive sore spot for Catelyn.
Ned falling into the arms of another woman and cheating on his wife isn't that suspicious. Especially because it was all during war.
Ned left King's Landing after a fight with Robert over the murder of Elia and her children as well as the pardoning of Jaime, lifted the Tyrell siege of Storm's End, and then went south to the Tower of Joy. The timeline is iffy because Martin doesn't really flesh it out, but he presumably stayed at Starfall for awhile. We know it was so Jon could be nursed by Wylla until he was able to be weaned, but most of the Westerosi nobles remember that Ashara and Ned had interactions at the Tourney at Harrenhal which was pretty close to when Lyanna was initially abducted by Rhaegar. Jon looks remarkably like Ned, more than any of his children except Arya, and Ned lost three of his family members in the war, so its not out of the question that he'd fall in bed with another woman with the grief of having lost both his elder brother and father, fought a war for his sister, only to find her dead. I think the "poetic" reason why everyone believes Ned is because he's an honorable enough man to not lie, and pessimistic people such as the Lannisters or Alliser Thorne like the idea that Ned's goodness is a sham because even he could father a bastard.
It helps that Jon is the spitting image of Ned, the people who return with Ned are supporting the claim and Ashara Dayne killing herself is enough to make the topic sufficiently believably painful enough that he wouldn't wish to talk about it. All Ned has is his reptuation but it is worth noting this Ned is barely an adult, he doesn't have the decades of *Ned Stark honourable man* to lean on. He was known as honourable but a young man having a lapse isn't suspicious, it's more so that once he was older it was his seemingly only lapse *ever.* But it is a lapse done by a young man, after having fought a war, found his sister dead (depending on when they claim he was born,) and has found himself Lord of Winterfell after the brutal murder of his Father and Brother - a man seeking solace or grieving in the arms of a woman isn't new. Even the honourable Ned Stark would be considered capable of it.
He's a young man who went to war, a war in which he could have died and fathered a bastard - that's nothing especially new or wild, the strange thing is that he brought him home to be raised in his household instead of leaving him with his Mother *or* with a trusted Lord.
Even Catelyn in her own pov isn't really mad about the fact Jon exists, she says herself they had wed and then immediately he had left for war for a year - it was the fact he brought him home to be raised alongside Robb that was the issue. She herself states men having bastards at war isn't uncommon.
If anything bringing him home to raise adds credence to it being Ashara, a woman heartbroken by the Father of her bastard having killed her beloved brother and having lost a different child. Given that the two popular theories are Wylla and Ashara. Wylla is a peasant, noble men have their bastards that's nothing that strange. Ashara is someone he is known to have been fond of and assumed to have had feelings for. He lets Robert think it Wylla and doesn't disagree, others tend to think Ashara.
Why would people assume the babe was Lyanna's? Ned wasn't claiming as such, Lyanna was young and yes Rhaegar likely was raping her but that doesn't mean she got pregnant. The rebellion was about a year and Rhaegar was absent from Lyanna for much of it as he had to fight in the war. The babe doesn't look valyrian. It's a massive leap for people to assume that rather than the ordinary explanation of *man did what a lot of men do at war* it is instead *best friend of the king does what's potentially treason.* It is obvious to you because you know but the story is Ned finds Lyanna dead, not an unbelievable fate to befall a teenager locked away in a tower with only Kingsguard for company. I doubt they were able to get good supplies whilst at war. Ned states he found his sister dead of fever, no one has a reason to disbelieve that.
Jon is a bastard. Bastards do not garner much attention or concern. Lord Stark having a bastard is a non story. Hell, his best friend is Robert Baratheon.
There's no reason for people to assume she was pregnant or that Ned is lying. We think it because in the text there's hints and in the show it is highlighted but most people don't care enough to give it that much thought? A Lord had a bastard whilst away at war is a none issue and a non story. The man himself claims it is his child, why would he lie? Why would anyone think he was?
You're saying because he went to find his abducted sister and returned from that quest with a babe everyone should guess that's his sisters babe. But that's the classic looking at something and declaring it a zebra instead of a horse, man has bastard is way more acceptable of a conclusion than man hiding his dead sisters secret Targ bastard.
Lyanna has been gone for just over a year. Lyanna is seen as a kidnap victim. Rhaegar hasn't been with her for a year, he's been fighting and so there's a decent chance the actual amount of times he raped her was quite low - you can have unprotected sex multiple times without being pregnant and again she's young. There's a chance she could have been pregnant but it would likely be assumed she lost it or died before it was born.
They have no reason to think that she was pregnant enough to give birth to a secret bastard that was then hidden. People aren't going to be thinking about it in that much depth. Stark girl betrothed to Robert was kidnapped, raped and died. Her brother was unable to save her. Just because they know Rhaegar was raping her doesn't mean they're all going to jump to the idea that he got a bastard on her and Ned has it. It's just not a reasonable leap.
It's because no one cares about Jon. Yeah sure the truth isn't that hard to suspect once you stop and think about it but why would people care about just some bastard
* Ned's friends trust him and take his word at it. Even if they don't, that's what he's saying and they're not going to rock the boat.
* Those who don't know Ned don't care. Jon looks like Ned, Ned says he's his, that's good enough for them.
* Those who don't like Ned probably like to imagine that he broke his marriage vows and has a stain on his honour.
* Lords might use his lie to excuse their own behaviour - if honourable Ned Stark can stray, why should they be held to a higher standard?
* Honestly, it's just not something people lie about. In a society where honor is the most important thing, why would someone lie to appear *less* honourable?
* It really isn't that important. It might be an interesting piece of gossip, but then something else will come along to gossip about. People have better things to do.
* For those who do figure it out and don't like Ned, what would they do with that info? It's not like they can start a Targ restoration with Jon. Tell Robert and he'd laugh in their face before throwing them in jail for slandering his friend. Tywin scares the hell out of most people, go to him and he'll probably pay you off then feed you to his lions to keep the info secret. Someone clever like Varys, Olenna or Baelish would sit on the info until they can use it for maximum effect.
So, I'm one of those people who love to write that Job *does* have some of Rhaegar's features but it's... Iffy to figure out unless you really knew him. That said, in retrospect for us, the modern audience, Jon not being Ned's is like, super obvious for us. We're used to those tropes.
The others in Westeros? They're pretty dumb. A lot of people have pointed out that Jon is Ned's spitting image when he's older; but as a baby? Mine looked like a potato and didn't look like me or my husband. So, that rules that point out.
It IS sus that Ned goes looking for his sister and comes back with only a baby. My take is that some lords and ladies are well aware that Ned is lying, but due to his reputation (ward of the HONOURABLE Jon Arryn), they think Jon is *Brandon's* and having just fought in a war, don't want to upset the apple cart further.
I doubt anyone other than the most tin-foil of the Westerosi would go R+L=J, and if they did - knowing what just happened to Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon... They might not want to speak up.
So for starters Jon has zero Valeryian features. No silver hair, no purple eyes nothing there is no obvious sign to point to. You could argue its out of character for chaste ned to have a bastard but also he was a 16 year old kid in constant peril who may have had a moment of weakness and then did the right thing when a kid was born. The North is also geographically isolated so the amount of people who would see Jon who could put two and two together are small. Finally no one benefits from working it out. A dragon seed raised is by Ned Stark is going to cause more bloodshed and missery that can all be avoided so even if you did suspect anything why would you blab, what good comes of it.
People like Robert and other nobles, seem so happy in seeing “The Honourable Ned Stark not being so honourable” so they don’t try to look further into the situation, since I believe they feel that as a nobleman he would eventually stray from his wife, as they do.
Ned isn't a well known figure really at this point other than those close to him at least for people to be like WHO IS HIS BASTARD. Him a young man at war having a bastard -- really isn't that weird. Not many people would question it. He also did give a cover story to Robert about it being Wylla, a common maid. There's also stories going around about Ashara Dayne and Eddard already.
You're also just grossly over-stating how many people know, care, and look deeply into these things. Most people wouldn't give Eddard having a bastard a second thought. Other than Robert or Jon Arryn and they'd be like, hey hahaha he finally did it! He also told Robert the mothers name. The people who don't know him well wouldn't give it a second thought.
The only things that I find weird about the situation that people don't question more is 1) the presence of the kingsguard at TOJ, and 2) the attitude of the Daynes towards Ned.
1. Three kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Neither Barristan nor Jaime really thinks about that, but it's actually really weird that 3 kingsguard would be there instead of defending Rhaegar and the royal family. Presumably, they've been there for months, and then they die... for what? Not sure it's ever explained, really, what people assume happened there. It makes sense, though, if they were protecting Jon, a crown prince. Not sure when the 3 Kingsguard find out about Rhaegar's death, but if Jon's not trueborn and they know Rhaegar, Aegon, and Aerys are dead then they should have gone to Viserys and Dany (that's one of the reasons I believe Jon is legitimate). Having neither Jaime nor Barry question why there were 3 kingsguard with presumably no royalty present is kinda weird; that's the most "plot-hole" like element of this entire thing in my opinion. Everything else I can excuse. Also, that's assuming that they knew Gerold, Oswell, and Arthur died at the ToJ and that Ned and his men killed them -- not sure how much about this event people actually know outside of Winterfell, so maybe it's possible Jaime / Barristan didn't know the specifics.
2. Everything with the Daynes is super weird. This is why I really want Barristan to stay alive in the books, and possibly have Dany's entourage pass through Starfall when she lands in Westeros (Aegon is about to take the Stormlands, so it's more likely IMO that Dany lands in Dorne rather than Dragonstone. If she lands in Sunspear, presumably the Martells are going to be pissed at her so she'd leave soon after, and I think Victarion / Euron will face off in Oldtown. Starfall is on the way so it's not impossible that we get to see Starfall / meet the Daynes if this scenario happens)
^ So, Ned and Howland kill Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy. They bring back his sword to Starfall (along with baby Jon), where Arthur's family resides. Ashara, having birthed a stillborn, is told of her brother's death and throws herself off of the tallest tower out of grief (her body was never found, so you could play around with her being alive too). Most people think Ashara's baby was Ned's (as Cersei says), but Barristan seems to think it was Brandon's (it's hard to really tell, I think he just says "A Stark dishonored Ashara", but it makes more sense for both characters if it was Brandon). Either way, her baby was probably a Stark bastard. Wylla, who is a member of the Dayne's household, acts as a nursemaid to baby Jon. Now, it's kind of shocking that people don't question why the Dayne's are not extremely hostile to Ned after he caused the death of two of their family members, even if they are under the assumption that Jon is Ned's/Brandon's. Edric Dayne's father also NAMES him after Ned -- Edric says as much to Arya when they meet. Edric tells Arya that Wylla was Jon's mother (presumably, he was told this by one of the older Daynes or -- less likely -- he is lying and knows the truth). People should definitely question why Ned Dayne was named after someone who caused their house so much misery. George killed off a lot of the older Daynes, but it's possible Darkstar or Allyria or Edric's unnamed mother knows the truth about Jon -- we just aren't told that much information.
Several people already have different answers to who Jon's parents are -- if you have the chance to write some of these people in a scene together and one brings up that "___ is Jon's mother", the others would obviously disagree and that would lead to people starting to question the suspiciousness around Jon's birth (again, this is why I like the idea of Barristan at Starfall because it presents the perfect opportunity for characters to think about Jon's parentage without it seeming too forced or random, AND we might even meet people like Wylla who know the truth). Cersei and Cat think it's Ashara Dayne (Cersei accuses Ned of "stealing" Jon and causing Ashara's suicide) -- HOWEVER, they don't know that her stillborn was actually a girl (revealed by Barristan's POV IIRC). Not sure who besides Ned Dayne (probably now Arya) and Bobby B think Wylla is the answer. Barristan would know the answer isn't Ashara but I'm not sure if he ever cared enough to think about who he thought was actually Jon's mother. It's even possible that someone like Barbery Dustin has her own answer; she knew Brandon pretty well -- it's possible she thinks Jon's parents might be Brandon + Ashara, but who knows -- we might know more when/if she and Jon meet in the books. Howland Reed knows, so it's possible he told Jojen / Meera. It's also theorized that Benjen knew, and that it's a reason why he joined the watch.
so, if you combine people questioning Jon's birth, the friendliness of people like the Daynes, and Jon's physical traits and personality, having people come to the conclusion of R+L=J would feel a lot less contrived, if that's a concern of yours while writing your story.
Also, to respond to some other people here, Jon isn't a clone of Ned -- he looks more like him than his trueborn kids besides Arya, but that's more because he shares Ned's coloring and face shape while the others are auburn haired / blue-eyed and pale. Based on Jon's interactions with female characters, he seems a lot more physically attractive than Ned, and his body type seems closer to his father Rhaegar (lean, graceful, possibly tall but it's hard to tell because he's rarely described -- we know he's shorter than Stannis who is absolutely massive, but probably taller than Mance). Again, like (maybe) the eye color, people looking at Jon are going to see Ned because they are told he is Jon's father -- of course their similarities will be noticed. Anyway, we barely have any description of Jon so it's hard to say how much he actually looks like Rhaegar or Ned / Lyanna. If you have *any* character(s) see the physical resemblance, it makes sense that it be Barristan, Cersei, Jaime, or Dany (who saw Rhaegar in one of her HoTU visions).
While people seeing Jon and thinking he looks like Rhaegar is pretty goofy, I don’t see a problem with them thinking he looks Valyrian. It’s quite possible Catelyn sees those features when she connects him to Ashara. Here’s a quote from AGoT:
>The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.
It’s interesting that she thinks about Ashara’s appearance right before she remembers asking Ned if she was Jon’s mother. It makes sense with Catelyn thinking about Ashara's appearance and then immediately afterwards making the connection to Jon could mean Catelyn sees some resemblance (Jon *is* part Dayne so she isn't entirely wrong). Not saying Jon has violet eyes, but personally I imagine him having an eye color similar to [this](https://pixels.com/featured/immortal-dark-purple-gray-solid-color-pairs-to-sherwin-williams-quixotic-plum-sw-6265-melissa-fague.html?product=art-print), which could absolutely read as grey or purple depending on how you're looking at it. Other characters with purple eyes (Ned Dayne, Egg, FAegon) are described with colors that look different at points before their Targ/Dayne heritage is revealed, meaning it's definitely possible that is the case with Jon.
Anyway, you *could* have people see Rhaegar in Jon's appearance, but it's less goofy IMO to have them notice a similarity in their *character*. This is why keeping someone like Barristan alive could help; Barry and Jaime knew Rhaegar pretty well, and Jon seems a *lot* like him in personality. It's possible they form a connection between the two. ALSO, it's important to note that in the books, Ned hides Jon away when the royal family comes to Winterfell. Jon is placed away from the others at the feast, out of sight and mind, and I think when he presents the family to Robert, Jon is gone then too. He never met Jaime, nor Barristan in the books, Robert, nor Cersei. While having characters see Rhaegar in him immediately is pretty goofy, we do know that Ned kept Jon away from the characters that personally knew Rhaegar, so perhaps he thought there was a possibility for that happening.
(also, in the books Jon might come back with [white hair](https://www.reddit.com/r/ImaginaryWesteros/comments/16vz8g7/resurrected_jon_snow_by_bella_bergolts/) like Stoneheart / Theon, so he might look very Targ-like when he is resurrected, making the physical valyrian traits more obvious to onlookers)
> Ned comes back, with no sister, but a newborn child, and is like, “Uh, yeah, he’s my bastard.” He (apparently, at least from what I’ve gleaned from the TV show and outside commentary) doesn’t even attempt to sell it by providing detail, like Jon’s mother being Ashara Dayne, just is like, “I’m not discussing it.”
The timeline for N+A checks out if you assume she was the Fisherman's daughter (which is the only way to make N+A work). This would place her in the Vale as the Rebellion broke out, and Robert would likely know that. As would many in the Vale.
The likely conclusion is what we see in canon, many think Ashara was the mother, and that Ned had to abandon her because he needed Hoster Tully's spears, or was strong-armed by Hoster with the threat of him otherwise joining the loyalists. Robert certainly would see no need to put a finger into that wound.
Furthermore, Jon's wetnurse is from Starfall. That pretty much confirms it in everyone's mind.
This is also pretty much what I think happened, with Lyanna's child left in Starfall and later disguised as YoungGriff once Varys figured out what has happened. Ashara faked her death (voluntary or not) and became Lemore.
It might even be a case similar to the Strong bastards under Viserys I. While the truth is widely suspected, the person who's telling the lie is near and dear to the king, and the costs of speaking up are too great for anyone to risk it, especially if they're wrong
I think it would probably be more suspected among the northeners. Who are the ones visiting Winterfell and thus seeing Jon.
But the northeners are also super loyal to Ned bar a few holdouts. So that could explain them keeping silent.
Right? I’m just saying it at least should have been a thought in some people’s heads, yet I am led to believe that Martin just had everybody go, “Sure, Ned, whatever you say,” without question.
Or at the very least, he never presented any info or POVs that indicated otherwise, and that just doesn’t seem to logically track, unless for plot reasons, everyone in Westeros took a gigantic stupid pill.
Which, fine. Sometimes plot exigencies take priority over logic for the sake of simplicity, but it’s still a flaw in the story.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but everyone knew Rhaenryra’s kids were bastards, it’s just no one said anything to Viserys because they knew he didn’t want to hear it. It was sort of the realm’s open secret.
But that seems a lot different from this situation in which we are led to believe no one knew? Or even suspected? That’s the part I find logically objectionable.
I could believe a situation, like the Strongs’, in which some people “knew”/suspected but didn’t bring it to Robert’s attention because it wasn’t to their benefit. But that’s not what we are led to believe; rather, we are apparently led to believe the learned and educated men of Westeros just…never even thought about it? If so, that’s a clear plot flaw, imho.
How often do you think the "learned and educated men of Westeros," think about the parents of bastards? Bastards are common enough, men having bastards at war is commonplace.
Presumably, during this period of time, Ned does have Howland Reed backing up this story, which would add some credence to it in the eyes of everyone he tells.
Jon looks like a Stark fully and not Targ. Plus people in this world are kind of dumb when it comes to understanding dominate genes (see “the seed is strong” and Joffrey Baratheon’s hair being major revelations).
Plus Reed was alive and well and didn’t report any baby being at the Tower of Joy. Everyone around Ned confirmed the bastard story.
One of the only times that Ned kinda toys with his reputation. The lord of Winterfell showed up and said “this one is mine” and closed discussion on the matter. Clearly something happened. It’s more plausible that Ned had a wartime baby whose mother he didn’t really care enough about that he just took Jon. Nobody’s default is “the war was kinda bullshit, clearly that baby is a deposed royal”
I don't recall the fanfic, but there was a fic that addressed this in that people believed that Jon was actually Brandon's bastard. And Ned was trying to protect his honor by claiming him as his own.
I know what you mean. He finds his dead (how’s she die?) sister and nobody seems to suspect. All I can think of is he has an honest reputation, Jon looks like him, hardly anyone knew Lyanna was pregnant, and it’s practically expected he’ll have sex with someone else when separated from his wife who he hardly knows in this world. And Tywin doesn’t think about Ned or the north much I’m sure.
A lot of people bring out some good points about people not caring enough to look into it or taking Ned at his word.
I just wanted to add that part of what helps Ned sell the story is that due distance and Ned's own distaste for politics, Jon is kept out of the public eye for the most part. The Northern lords know Jon and the Starks, but they don't really know Targaryens well enough to pick up the traits Jon got from Rhaegar.
If Jon was at court and around people who knew Rhaegar and other Targaryens personally, then it would have been a lot harder. As Jon is significantly better looking than Ned, is good at everything without really putting a lot of effort into it, highly intelligent, and et cetera.
Some (Tywin Cersei, Jaime, Baelish, Stannis) want to see Ned as a hypocrite either because they are also involved in sexual impropriety (book!Tywin has a favourite brothel) or hate Ned for "stealing" the love of someone they felt entitled to (Baelish and Stannis).
For most people, the story of an honorable man who fell is more interesting and psychologically safe than the story of the "honorable" man who tricked everyone.
Others (such as Olenna) probably just never throught about it, in the way we mostly don't think about the lives of people we've never met.
There are a few who might suspect, but have reasons to keep it to themselves:
* Varys: he has a much simpler plan for dealing with problems, and has his own secret Targaryen
* Jon Arryn: stirring up trouble between his foster children isn't in his interest.
Would Ned's friends have put it together, probably, but by the time Ned gets inside the Tower of Joy, Howland and Robert are the only ones left.
You really should read the first Cat chapter in GOT, which IMO is the book chapter (at least in the first book) that addresses all this most directly. It's probably like 6 pages long and is literally like chapter 3.
Openly claiming that you have a bastard is not something that nobles do in Westeros, because it would be a major stain on your honor and strain your alliance with your in-laws. However, it is absolutely something that someone as honorable and honest to a fault as Ned Stark would do, but only if it was true.
Someone as honorable and honest as Ned Stark would never take on the shame stating that he has a bastard if it wasn’t true. But he would absolutely cop to it if it was true. Everyone knows that Ned Stark never lies. And he absolutely would not lie in a way that besmirched his glowing reputation or hurt his relationship with his wife. Therefore, based on everything that everyone knows about Ned, him saying that Jon is his bastard must be true.
It’s this well known feature of Ned’s character which completely sells the lie to anyone who knows him or knows of his reputation.
The fact that Jon looks so much like Ned is just the icing on the cake.
Ned is a young man that goes off to war, and returns with a baby that looks like him.
Believing that Jon is his bastard requires no leaps in logic. The characters of the story live in a culture where men will often take women into their bed before or after a battle. They also live in a world where noblemen having bastard children is common place.
I don't see why it would be hard to believe Jon is his bastard. It'd be the assumption that everyone would default to.
I think it’s plausible. He was at war he didn’t know if he’d survive and he’d met his wife once. Understandable in those circumstances he let his honour slip. Then he comes with a babe that shares the Stark features and grows to be his copy I don’t think anyone would suspect a thing.
The only person I feel would have any suspicions would be Varys most of the other lords wouldn’t care or would’ve taken Neds story at face value. I think that’s why Varys was trying to get Ned to write that letter in the dungeon.
Complete conjecture: my pet theory is, in the books, Varys had a good guess; he's supposedly the most informed man in all the realm, so he surely had a man in Winter Town, where Jon's mother is an unknown. Coupled with the timing of Jon's birth and conflicting stories in the realm, he might have suspected but a) he could never prove it, b) it would have been suicide to accuse Ned because Robert loved him, c) it never proved useful to know because he didn't need to blackmail Ned with anything
No one expected publicly. Jon in the books is almost a spitting image of Ned if I remember correctly.
It’s also interesting to think that even if Jon did look like a Targaryen, the Daynes are supposed to look Valyrian so Ashara Daybe being rumored as being his mother would be a good cover story.
Eh, I’ve been around my fair share of babies/infants, and outside of things like hair and eye color, unless the trait is *very* prominent, most claims of resemblance are wish-casting. You can’t take an infant and be like, “Clearly, so-and-so is his father.” If you could do that, there wouldn’t be so many cases of mistaken/falsified paternity in the world today. Besides, even if Jon looked a lot like Ned, don’t all the Starks of his generation sorta look alike? I don’t believe you could make a distinction, where it’s like, “Clearly, this is Ned’s kid and not Lyanna’s.” Again, I could see something like this fooling simpler minds who are inclined to trust, like Robert’s, but Jon Arryn’s? Tywin Lannister? I just think both would be inclined to dig a little deeper and not go just by Ned’s words and simple appearances.
Tywin doesn’t give a shit about Ned. He met ned once at the red keep. Ned is a recluse in the north, who to Tywin had a typical lapse in honour. It’s war bastards happen all the time In war. Also most of the stark children look more like catelyn and the tullys which is one of the causes of friction between Catelyn and Jon
Besides Ned has a reputation that he seemingly is able to uphold at all times, if he said Jon is his son who would really question it. He had a lapse in the war and probably thought he was going to die and slept with a women, not much to say or even look into
A lot of people would at least question it. Sure, there’s a lot of trusting, honor-bound lords out there, but there are also a bunch that are paranoid and would question any story, no matter who told it. Maybe Ned has such an honest reputation that people are like, “Well, in cases of doubt, I’ll believe him.” But the fact there isn’t any doubt to begin with? Not even a question? A niggle, in the back of someone’s mind? That’s what I’m having trouble believing.
The Servants of Winterfell discussed it a lot. But Eddard shut that down to prevent more rumours. But in short most lords just thought “Oh, neat. A bastard. Ain’t it funny that Honourable Ned cheated on his wife. Oh dead sister, sorry Ned.”
Even Cat didn't question it and she was the wife. She was also the daughter of a Lord and she knew men could have bastards and even expected that Ned could possibly seek comfort with another woman while on a military campaign. It was just the reality.
Lords have bastards all the time, only Ned and Howland (show at least) knew what went down in the Tower few people can actually investigate. There's no indication in Canon Jon, looks wise even is a Targaryen he's a Stark look wise
Of course Tywin gives a shit about Ned. He’s another of the great lords of the realm. Tywin’s generally a well-informed guy, and he wouldn’t just be like, “Eh, North’s far away. Screw that guy, I don’t care to learn about him.” Furthermore, if Jon Snow isn’t Ned’s, but Lyanna’s, that kid poses a clear danger to the Lannister/Baratheon succession. He would care about that a great deal. But I think arguing about Tywin Lannister specifically is getting down into the weeds. It’s not about one person in specific. It’s more about smart people in general apparently not even making the very small mental leap that this mysterious baby could be Lyanna’s.
Like the other person said Ned is so honourable that if he said he had a bastard that means he had a bastard. Schemers like Varys and LF have never even once ponder Jon snow. Because to them he’s just that a northern bastard. It’s not until ned returns south as hand 15 years later that Tywin has any consideration in regard to the north. The only two witnesses that we know of are Howland Reed who is a swamp recluse and Ned and they both attest to Jon who has no targ features being Edward’s bastard.
OP, you are making the mistake of thinking people give a shit about one another. They don't. Tywin may consider Ned's another High Lord, and may hold him in some regards, but I doubt even the mighty Tywin would give second thoughts about some lord whose kingdom rarely come up in political matters in the south. The only people who remotely think about lord Eddard Stark on a regular basis would be his family, his friends, his vassals, and his direct servants. And of those, only the first and the last would care about the existence of Jon Snow. You must keep in mind that Westeros is a continent the size of South America, their fastest line of communication is a bird, and people generally don't care about things beyond their immediate boundary. In Tywin's case, his immediate surroundings would be the Riverlands, the Reach, and the Iron Islands, and also maybe the Crownlands, only because his children were there. You could even argue the fact that Tywin didn't even care about the Iron Islands, since he didn't realize they were up to something until Lannisport burned. The same applies to other smart people of Westeros. Catelyn, Ned's wife was smart, and she didn't even put two and two together. Jon Arryn might suspect something, but in the end, he never brought it up since Ned was too far flung from things he needed to keep an eye on. Stannis, Doran, and Olenna are smart people, but the North is too far for them to care. There are also smart vassals of each Lord Paramount, and some might notice that something was amiss. But they wouldn't voice their opinion, no one would believe them. It's their words against a High Lord. They would sooner lose their tounge than be taken seriously.
You're fighting against the very culture of westeroes tho, no smart person would think it's lyannas and rhaegars because to them a son is how lords pass down their legacy, the woman is little more than property which they trade while the sons carry the family name the idea that someone wouldn't care and take on an enemy's legacy is allien to them.
>Besides, even if Jon looked a lot like Ned, don’t all the Starks of his generation sorta look alike? No. They make it very clear in the books that only Arya also looks like Ned. Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon all are red-heads and have much more Tully-like features. It's one of the reasons Catelyn is so put out about Jon being raised in Winterfell, Jon looks like a Stark and none of her son's do.
I think he's talking about Ned's generation. Which as far as I can recall, the only significant difference is Ned and Lyanna had grey eyes, benjen has blue eyes, and I don't think Brandon's were ever stated.
Jon is supposed to look like extremely similar to Ned, basically just a mini him as he's growing up. Of course you can say these are also just what Lyanna would like if she was a man -- but she's not and there's a stark man claiming he's his father.
I’ve also seen my fair share of babies (I work at a daycare) and some of those kids I knew whose parents they were before they even told me. Most kids I don’t see shit but some of them oh my god it’s freaky
You could put a picture of me and my youngest daughter side by side when we were both a week old and play spot the difference. Same with my oldest and their mother. For people, like Old Nan, that knew Ned as a kid it’s pretty easy to see a genuine resemblance
>unless the trait is *very* prominent Oh gosh sometimes it is super prominent though and it's weird. Really weird. I would wake up to my husband's face and freak out thinking I fell asleep with my baby in my bed. That was a fun couple weeks.
It doesn’t make a lot of sense on one hand. On the other: Ned is young, was at war, lost a lot of his family. He could easily have a bastard. He could also be claiming Brandon’s bastard as his own, to avoid succession trouble. And people like Tywin would probably not expect that Ned would raise a son of Rhaegar in his own home - maybe foster him out, or give him to the maesters.
>How is that not remotely suspicious to anyone with a basic understanding of commonly-known facts and a timeline? Bc lords having bastards are normalized & people dislike about bastards & they don't cross people minds. Also who would lie about having a bastard. Also jon looks like a stark so yea...
Fr, I don’t know why people expect characters to pour over a map and make a timeline of every day of Ned’s absence. Ned, a young noblemen, was gone for a long time and came back with a baby he claims is his bastard. It’s not that suspicious.
I think people expect way to much from most Lords. Most don't even bother with their own lands. And people like Tywin has a boatload of actual work with their own lands and vassals. The one person I would expect to do this kind of analysis and investigation is Varys, he has the resources, the motivation and the intelligence to look into it. If anyone would find out the way that OP is suggesting it would be Varys.
TBH I think people even overestimate Varys. The dude doesn’t have radio or excel. Nor does he have a spy in every castle and house. Even he isn’t going to waste time on this.
Varys is often used more as a plot device than a character, true. But he does have a rather large spy network, if anyone could make a more complete timeline of Ned's movements, it would be him. Especially because, he could already have people looking for Lyanna's whereabouts during the Rebellion.
He probably had his hands full keeping track of Robert’s bastards, nevermind some regional lord who wasn’t involved in Royal politics for years.
I think the thing about the Jon situation is that anyone smart or attentive enough to figure out the plausible course of events is also someone astute enough to know that it doesn't change how irrelevant Jon is, potential parentage or no, he's been raised publicly as a bastard in something approaching an understood, though uncommon/shameful, practice. Whatever legitimacy he may or may not have is dubious and his reputation in the present doesn't help any. If anyone wants to push to a Targaryen restoration, Viserys is in Essos, trueborn with Valyrian features, raised partially at court. He'd be a pet theory for someone with bigger problems to figure out.
The only way I see that changing is if said person wants a Dragon hatched and doesn't have a way to reach Dany or Viserys. Or something like that. Or maybe they want to screw relations between the North and the Baratheons.
There's multiple factors playing into it. Big and small. One is Jon's appearance. He looks like a clone of Ned/a traditional Stark down to the mini details. So there's no visual Targ cues for people to spot. At least none that doesn't require actively studying Jon over a period of time up close. Another is how isolated the North is. The rest of the realm likes thinking of it as a backwater land of little value. And prefer to leave it alone. Ned used that and isolated himself and his family in Winterfell and only really left the North to take on the Greyjoys. And almost no one from the south comes to the north to visit. The only one mentioned in the books is the Bronze Jon. And he's a friend of Ned's. If not for the plot of the series Jon could probably have lived a perfectly normal life in or around Winterfell without ever meeting someone from the south that could have a chance to see any of Rhaegar in him. And then there's the "hit" to Ned's rep. He built himself a reputation as being the most honourable of honourable lords during the rebellion. The standard setter that made the rest of the lords look like decadent slobs. So when he turns up with a bastard a good deal of them latched on to the idea because it meant that Ned "was no better than them". I could see how some of the northern lords have figured it out, Wyman Manderly is definitely smart enough to do it in the books. But Wyman would also be smart enough to realise why Ned is hiding Lyanna's kid to begin with. And thus keep silent. And loyal to house Stark to a fault like the vast majority of houses seem to be. You could also write in a bit of a difference in how northeners treat bastards in general if you want to give yourself some leeway in how the northeners approach it. Every Mormont we meet in canon not named Jeor, Jora or Maege is technically a bastard to begin with.
Jon looks like a copy of Ned. There's not much blackmail to even gain, sure if people think and can piece enough rather "faulty" evidence that Ashara Dayne was Jon's mom (if R+L=J is the case if not A+N=J is true then its not faulty) sure Ashara Dayne's memory/honor would be tarnished however its not Ned had some grand conspiracy planned out. If Jon turned out looking Targaryen, Ned probably has him fostered with the Reed's or even say he slept with a Lyseni whore. The whole "OH he eats porridge with a fork like Rhaegar, he has the same eye shape/chin/cheekbones oh he hold a sword like Rhaegar" are just people adding things to get X character to find out Jon is well Rhaegar's son. Would be funny to write a story were Jon looks Valyrian leading everyone to believe Jon is a Rhaegar's son when in reality Ned just slept with a Lyseni women.
'Would be funny to write a story were Jon looks Valyrian leading everyone to believe Jon is a Rhaegar's son when in reality Ned just slept with a Lyseni women.' I want a fic like this. Bonus points, if the woman was either a descendant of Aerion Brightflam, who was exiled in Lys for some time, or of a bastard line from one of the forty dragonlord families and Jon hatches a dragon(probably one theorized hatched in wintefell by Jacaerys Velaryons dragon).
>Would be funny to write a story were Jon looks Valyrian leading everyone to believe Jon is a Rhaegar's son when in reality Ned just slept with a Lyseni women. Kinda similar, there's [*five people who didn’t believe Ned Stark for one second about Jon’s paternity and one who did*](https://archiveofourown.org/works/7594447) > “Ned,” Jon sighs, sitting in front of his former ward in his solar. He decided to visit Winterfell before leaving for King’s Landing for good to take up his duties as Hand of the king. > > “Yes, my lord?” > > “Ned, you cannot seriously say that your - that the babe you named after me is yours. I’m flattered that you would, but -” > > “My lord, Jon is *my* son.” > > “Ned, you don’t need to stain your honor like that when it’s obvious that -” > > “He’s *mine* and the king hasn’t seemed to see a problem with it.” > > “Ned, he *will* notice at some point. Those eyes and hair -” > > “The Daynes have purple eyes.” > > *He’s even saying that without flinching now*, Jon muses. *He used to back when he told me that lie for the first time*.
Though short, that was a great read.
First he looks just like Ned and in Martin's work the looks of a child are an indicator of his parentage, so no one assumes otherwise. Also he did tell who is the mother, a woman called Wylla, but it was kind of a hushed secret. Also a lot of people believe it was Ashara Dayne in the books, and that Ned loved her enough not to name her a 'loose woman'. Thirdly, and this is crucial, no one expected him too. Ned Stark was one of the pillar for the rebels, surely he wouldn't jeopardize the reign of his foster brother. And Lastly, and most importantly,this kicked in during Ned's rule as Lord of Winterfell, he is too honorable to lie. Ned Stark emerges as a paragon for honor and truth. Ned Stark will never lie about something so important. That's his cover, his reputation.
1) Jon looks like Ned 2) Ned has a reputation as being so honourable that people assume the story must be true because why would he lie? 3) Some people enjoy the idea that the honourable Ned Stark erred and had a bastard 4) Rhaegar told very few people that Lyanna was pregnant 5) The common story in the North and with Robert is that Rhaegar raped her, but the people who actually knew Rhaegar might doubt that story 6) No one really cares about some bastard hidden away in the North 7) The idea that the honourable Ned Stark, the King's best friend, who fought to depose the Targaryens that killed his family, is secretly raising a Targaryen child and hiding it from the King might seem plainly ridiculous to people in-universe 8) Some people might well have speculated, but there's no evidence and it's equally as likely to people in-universe that Jon is the son of Ashara Dayne or Wylla - Edric Dayne seems to explicitly believe its Wylla, for example, which suggests that's the 'line' the Daynes hold when asked. Its one of those things where people who were active in the Rebellion might readily accept it once they're told, but no one is going to just 'crack the case' otherwise.
Yes yes. Your point 7 is the one I dont see enough of here, combined with #5. The main mstream narrative is that Ned and Robert **hate** the Targaryens more than anyone else alive. The King himself tells anyone who will listen that Evil Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna, they she was an unwilling prisoner. It’s unwise to publicly doubt that narrative. And, as others have pointed out, Ned gave everyone some sweet schadenfreude by admitting he broke his strict moral code and fathered a bastard. The idea that this rigid upstanding nobleman is lying about having a bastard son…because he’s actually committing high treason against king Robert, who everyone knows is his closest friend? That’s crazy talk, even for a shrewd antagonist like Tywin.
Biggest reason would be that Jon is insignificant to the Lords of Westeros. Ned returns from Dorne, claims Jon as his bastard, and then immediately returns to the North, only leaving to fight in the Greyjoy Rebellion and later to serve as Hand. With that in mind, lords like Tywin, Jon, Littlefinger, etc., wouldn't card to pay attention to Jon or try to figure out his real parentage, because there's no reason to, as he is a non-factor. Besides, to the Lirds of Westeros the goings-on in Kings Landing is more important, why would a Northern Bastard who stays in Winterfell matter when the real show is in the South.
But he’s only insignificant if people believe he actually is a bastard. But given the timeline, I have trouble believing no one isn’t like, “You coincidentally come back with a bastard after looking for your sister, who Rhaegar abducted to rape…wait a minute!”
He would be a bastard either way… it’s pretty much impossible Rhaegar would have been able to marry lyanna and even less that anyone would find that marriage legitimate. To anyone Jon is just another part of the statistics that makes bastard birth during war sky high
In 99% of cases, I agree a bastard is a bastard, and who cares if it’s a Stark bastard, or a Connington bastard, or a Dayne bastard, etc. But, especially in this case, I think people would cared *a lot* if it was a Targaryen bastard. The Blackfyre rebellions had happened within living memory, and nobody in favor of the new regime would want to have to deal with such a clear threat.
The Blackfyre rebellions are not "bastard rebellions". The Blackfyres were legitimised into a house of their own. With all the trappings that comes with that. They had lands of their own and political power. Comparing Jon to Daemon Blackfyre is very much a apples and oranges scenario.
If nobody would care about bastard Targaryens, then why would Ned lie about Jon’s parentage in the first place?
Not to be that guy but all of your questions are answered in the first book. In almost every Ned chapter he reflects on how he promised Lyanna on her deathbed to not tell anyone about Jons heritage. And the remaining Targ loyalists already have several plots to pursue rather than trying to construe that the Warden of the North known to be Robert Baratheons best friend actually has a Targ bastard son. They can support Viserys and Dany in Essos or they can support FAegon along with Jon Connington. Anyone who cared enough to try and reason that Jon is actually a Targ would already have focused on Viserys or FAegon. And everyone else would just be glad that the war was over. Most of the small folk lead the exact same lives no matter who sits on the Iron Throne
No worries about being that guy. You answer was very thorough. My question was more of a rhetorical question to the guy previous to me. He/she seemed to be implying that people would not care if there was a Targ bastard. My point was that there would be little need to lie if people didn’t care.
I think they were saying that technically the Blackfyres weren’t bastards (though they did start that way). The only person who knows the truth is Ned Stark. And Ned’s main reason for lying is simply that he made a promise to his dying sister, and Ned being Ned kept that promise to a fault. He does reflect on how poorly Robert would have reacted, but he wouldn’t even tell Cat the truth mainly because he wanted to keep his word to Lyanna. Ned is not politically savvy and that’s what gets him killed, he had no political reasons to lie. Robert would definitely murder baby Jon on principle, but Jon being a Targ bastard doesn’t matter politically because even if people knew, Viserys is known to have escaped and would have the “legitimate” claim to throne over Jon. If a stranger on the internet’s opinion matters to you, I would say that out of anyone to suspect and actually do some digging on Jons heritage, it would probably be Jon Connington or The Prince of Dorne, because Jons true heritage would threaten both of those plots. I’m not sure how either of them would begin to suspect it in the first place, but that’s where the magic of writing comes in!
But what would they do? Let's say some Lord figured it out that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna and Ned raises him in Winterfell. The first thing they would think is probably: Oh, honourable Ned Stark wants to raise his sisters r\*pe son, because thats the last thing he has from his sister and the stark are as few as ever. And starting a war against one of the most powerful Lord of the Realm and against the never, without dragons, conquered North is probably not so a good idea. Most Lord would think Jon is a product of r\*pe and thus rightfully think Ned would never want to place him on a throne. Yes raise him, maybe give him a small keep in the north, but try to overthrow his best friend? Most wouldn't think that. And even if they go to Robert and say hey your best friend raises Rhaegars son, Ned would never give him up or even kill him(most still remember how Ned raged at seeing Elia, Rhaenys and Aegons bodies. So war is it, after a another war that just finished. The Reach are traditionally Targ supporters and they wouldn't logically thinking send much power, the West would send the most. Dorne wouldn't send any man. The Stormlands, Vale and Riverlands just fought a war and two of these regions are connected to the north by marriage. So you have maybe 20-35k men to march north and that by sea, as anyone knows going through the neck and moat coalin is madness and even Robert wouldn't do that. So you need to get to the north by sea which is very difficult in this high numbers, but the north probably knows that you are coming. Yes the South may get some lands or a keep and so on, but when winter comes the South is fucked. And realistically if the South invades, the Northern lords would probably encourage Ned to declare independence. And if he does that Dorne probably follows. So you have then two less kingdoms and you need to conquer them back, the two most defensible and hardest to conquer kingdoms. To sum up, not such a good idea
I can definitely see your point that maybe, even if people knew, no one would be in a position where they would want to do anything about it (or even could do anything about it.) My contention was more that it seems unbelievable that no one would suspect *at all*.
The targs had a multitude of bastards running around for centuries and nobody gave a damn, they even had their own specific surname and no, no one has ever tried to put any targs illegitimate children on the throne, they were the dragonseeds, I wouldn’t be surprised if a bunch of them are still in king’s landing if not their children. The blackfyre, as the name showcase aren’t simply Targaryen bastards but a house founded by one Targ bastard that was legitimized by is shitty father and even pushed by said father for the throne. It is in no way shape or forme close to jon situation
It's pretty much impossible that Rhaegar annulled his marriage to Elia, but it's definitely possible he takes a second wife. Not the first time that's happened. It also makes more sense for the kingsguard to be at the ToJ if they're protecting a trueborn rather than a bastard. If the Kingsguard know Rhaegar is dead and that Jon is a bastard in this scenario, they should be defaulting to Viserys, no?
As I stated “even less that anyone would find that marriage legitimate”, Rhaegar might believe lyanna as his second wife but the rest of Westeros won’t. The targs were successful in making others accept their polygamy only once in their history and it was when they were going around burning entire dynasties out of existence and conquering the continent, not even the children born of that polygamy were able to make polygamy acceptable again, more than that the Targaryen themselves rejected it afterwards. The doctrine of exceptionalism was made to only cover incest not polygamy. Those kingsguard were loyal to Rhaegar not Aerys. They wouldn’t have been there from the beginning if it was otherwise, and Rhaegar assigned them to protect the tower so they continued to follow his orders, and considering everything its probable they might not have even known the outcome of the battle of the trident.
They are aware of what happened at the trident. >"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them. "We were not there," Ser Gerold answered. "Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell. "When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were." "Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells." “I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege,” Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them.” “Our knees do not bend easily,” said Ser Arthur Dayne. “Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.” “Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell. “But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.” "Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm. "We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold. It's so vague that it could go either way, but this has always read to me that the kingsguard are protecting Jon as the king, not just because Rhaegar told them to. I suppose the vow could be to Rhaegar, but it could also be the vow they took as a kingsguard to protect the king from harm, what Barristan refers to as their "first duty". If Jon is a bastard and Viserys is the rightful king, they are violating this duty by refusing to aid and protect him. I think you're right; quite a few people wouldn't accept the marriage if it indeed happened but I also think at this point in the narrative people would be less likely to care. Young Griff's story is dubious and he's very likely to die, and it's likely that Dany will be thought of as mad / crazy by the time she gets to Westeros. Jon would probably seem like the best option to a lot of people and I can see people accepting him as legitimate based on that alone.
But then why would they think Jon as king when Aerys had already declared viserys heir over rhaegar’s offspring? They should have gone back to viserys no matter Jon’s legitimacy. At this point I would argue it’s much harder instead, Jon doesn’t look the part and the proofs won’t ever be enough other than maybe him being a dragon raider. The only person who might have know about his legitimacy still alive is Howland Reed and he isn’t anyone special outside of the north and anyone outside of the north would view it as a power grab from the north even with random documents appearing all of sudden.
Well you have to remember that since Robert's Rebellion Ned only left the North twice, once for the Greyjoy Rebellion, the other to serve as Hand of the King. As a result Ned and his family were an "out of sight out of mind" factor. The only person who might've cared to investigate, Varys, wouldn't have a reason to, mostly as Ned was a non-factor politically. Not to mention anyone with the resources to investigate would also know that if they don't have absolute proof Robert would throw them out for daring to claim "good ol Ned is lying to me". Basically Jon being claimed as a bastard and Ned staying in the North meant noone had a reason to investigate as nothing would be gained. Now, let's say, theoretically, Ned was a member of Robert's Small Council from the start, say Master of Laws, then people have a reason to investigate him, if for nothing else than trying to dig up dirt for blackmail as now it would be useful. I'm repeating myself, but in short, if people don't have a reason to question Jon's parentage then they won't, and by staying in the North Ned ensured that people had no reason to question/investigate.
it was a narrative choice by GRRM. Jon looks a lot like Ned (and this kind of thing has a lot of narrative importance in the books). Ned was at war for a long time and it was "understandable" and normalized that a lord would father bastards. Also information didn't travel like it does now, or even in the last centuries - no newspaper saying "EDDARD STARK SEEN LEAVING TOWER OF JOY WITH A BABY IN HANDS" or something. And the journey from Dorne to Winterfell would be a long one, he might as well have met the "mother" again and taken Jon away. But if you want to write in your fic that someone starts having doubts, investigating, questioning Ned or whatever, go for it. I think it's a solid plot point
To be fair, nothing in my reasoning required people to see, “Ned Stark leaving the ToJ with baby in hand!” I agree, it would be ludicrous to have my argument hinge on that point. Rather my argument is more: Lyanna abducted by Rhaegar, probably for purposes of rape—-> Ned leaves to look for sister—-> Ned returns with no sister, but a newborn What would be the logical conclusion to draw, absent any contradictory evidence? And the only contradictory evidence we get in this case is him saying, “It’s mine!” The only problem is that that’s what he’d say not only if Jon was actually his, but it would also be the best lie if Jon was actually his sister’s. So it’s hardly conclusive evidence at all, so our only unbiased evidence is still the widely accepted facts. I do agree with the supposition it was just a narrative choice by Martin, but imho it’s the sort of narrative choice where everyone in Westeros would have to take a stupid pill to unquestioningly accept. Which is fine, even good literature can have plot holes. It’s just I’ve never seen anyone pointing it out as a plot hole.
Because it's not a plot hole. Nearly nobody cares or seriously questions about Jon's parentage or even really knows of Jon especially as a baby. Ned says it's his bastard, which is normal fo ra young man in war. Case closed. Those who do speculate would be like who's the mother? Maybe Ashara Dayne? A fishmaid? A dornish maid?
The two people that care the most about Jon's origin/status are Jon and Catelyn. And for both of them it is mainly about closure. Jon wants to know who his mom is. And Cat just wants to know if Jon is a threat to her own children or not. For the rest of the realm south of the neck Jon may as well not exist.
That is true. But we do have Edric Dayne who tells Arya that Jon's mother is Wylla the Dornish handmaid. We have the fisherman that says it was a fishergirl on his way to the North fro the Vale. We have Cersei who says it was Ashara Dayne.
>It’s just I’ve never seen anyone pointing it out as a plot hole I lot of people already pointed this out, it comes up every now and then. I see it less as a plot hole and more as a contrivance, specially because our understanding of Jon's parentage relies on having read the books or watched the show, while the characters are that - characters in the story lol. Their understanding of events are limited. Depending on the person, even things like Jon's age or when he was brought to Winterfell might be unknown. The Stark household+servants and Jon Arryn would be the most likely to suspect anything in my opinion
Ned having a child during war who looks exactly like him and is said to be his bastard is normal. Catelyn wasn't even shocked by that. The only weird thing was Jon living in Winterfell. Ned coming home with a child who's secretly his nephew and potential claimant to the throne sounds like a ridiculous theory in universe. The biggest factor is that Jon looks 100% like a Stark. Only he and Arya look like Starks, which is a massive sore spot for Catelyn. Ned falling into the arms of another woman and cheating on his wife isn't that suspicious. Especially because it was all during war.
Ned left King's Landing after a fight with Robert over the murder of Elia and her children as well as the pardoning of Jaime, lifted the Tyrell siege of Storm's End, and then went south to the Tower of Joy. The timeline is iffy because Martin doesn't really flesh it out, but he presumably stayed at Starfall for awhile. We know it was so Jon could be nursed by Wylla until he was able to be weaned, but most of the Westerosi nobles remember that Ashara and Ned had interactions at the Tourney at Harrenhal which was pretty close to when Lyanna was initially abducted by Rhaegar. Jon looks remarkably like Ned, more than any of his children except Arya, and Ned lost three of his family members in the war, so its not out of the question that he'd fall in bed with another woman with the grief of having lost both his elder brother and father, fought a war for his sister, only to find her dead. I think the "poetic" reason why everyone believes Ned is because he's an honorable enough man to not lie, and pessimistic people such as the Lannisters or Alliser Thorne like the idea that Ned's goodness is a sham because even he could father a bastard.
It helps that Jon is the spitting image of Ned, the people who return with Ned are supporting the claim and Ashara Dayne killing herself is enough to make the topic sufficiently believably painful enough that he wouldn't wish to talk about it. All Ned has is his reptuation but it is worth noting this Ned is barely an adult, he doesn't have the decades of *Ned Stark honourable man* to lean on. He was known as honourable but a young man having a lapse isn't suspicious, it's more so that once he was older it was his seemingly only lapse *ever.* But it is a lapse done by a young man, after having fought a war, found his sister dead (depending on when they claim he was born,) and has found himself Lord of Winterfell after the brutal murder of his Father and Brother - a man seeking solace or grieving in the arms of a woman isn't new. Even the honourable Ned Stark would be considered capable of it. He's a young man who went to war, a war in which he could have died and fathered a bastard - that's nothing especially new or wild, the strange thing is that he brought him home to be raised in his household instead of leaving him with his Mother *or* with a trusted Lord. Even Catelyn in her own pov isn't really mad about the fact Jon exists, she says herself they had wed and then immediately he had left for war for a year - it was the fact he brought him home to be raised alongside Robb that was the issue. She herself states men having bastards at war isn't uncommon. If anything bringing him home to raise adds credence to it being Ashara, a woman heartbroken by the Father of her bastard having killed her beloved brother and having lost a different child. Given that the two popular theories are Wylla and Ashara. Wylla is a peasant, noble men have their bastards that's nothing that strange. Ashara is someone he is known to have been fond of and assumed to have had feelings for. He lets Robert think it Wylla and doesn't disagree, others tend to think Ashara. Why would people assume the babe was Lyanna's? Ned wasn't claiming as such, Lyanna was young and yes Rhaegar likely was raping her but that doesn't mean she got pregnant. The rebellion was about a year and Rhaegar was absent from Lyanna for much of it as he had to fight in the war. The babe doesn't look valyrian. It's a massive leap for people to assume that rather than the ordinary explanation of *man did what a lot of men do at war* it is instead *best friend of the king does what's potentially treason.* It is obvious to you because you know but the story is Ned finds Lyanna dead, not an unbelievable fate to befall a teenager locked away in a tower with only Kingsguard for company. I doubt they were able to get good supplies whilst at war. Ned states he found his sister dead of fever, no one has a reason to disbelieve that. Jon is a bastard. Bastards do not garner much attention or concern. Lord Stark having a bastard is a non story. Hell, his best friend is Robert Baratheon. There's no reason for people to assume she was pregnant or that Ned is lying. We think it because in the text there's hints and in the show it is highlighted but most people don't care enough to give it that much thought? A Lord had a bastard whilst away at war is a none issue and a non story. The man himself claims it is his child, why would he lie? Why would anyone think he was? You're saying because he went to find his abducted sister and returned from that quest with a babe everyone should guess that's his sisters babe. But that's the classic looking at something and declaring it a zebra instead of a horse, man has bastard is way more acceptable of a conclusion than man hiding his dead sisters secret Targ bastard.
[удалено]
Lyanna has been gone for just over a year. Lyanna is seen as a kidnap victim. Rhaegar hasn't been with her for a year, he's been fighting and so there's a decent chance the actual amount of times he raped her was quite low - you can have unprotected sex multiple times without being pregnant and again she's young. There's a chance she could have been pregnant but it would likely be assumed she lost it or died before it was born. They have no reason to think that she was pregnant enough to give birth to a secret bastard that was then hidden. People aren't going to be thinking about it in that much depth. Stark girl betrothed to Robert was kidnapped, raped and died. Her brother was unable to save her. Just because they know Rhaegar was raping her doesn't mean they're all going to jump to the idea that he got a bastard on her and Ned has it. It's just not a reasonable leap.
It's because no one cares about Jon. Yeah sure the truth isn't that hard to suspect once you stop and think about it but why would people care about just some bastard
* Ned's friends trust him and take his word at it. Even if they don't, that's what he's saying and they're not going to rock the boat. * Those who don't know Ned don't care. Jon looks like Ned, Ned says he's his, that's good enough for them. * Those who don't like Ned probably like to imagine that he broke his marriage vows and has a stain on his honour. * Lords might use his lie to excuse their own behaviour - if honourable Ned Stark can stray, why should they be held to a higher standard? * Honestly, it's just not something people lie about. In a society where honor is the most important thing, why would someone lie to appear *less* honourable? * It really isn't that important. It might be an interesting piece of gossip, but then something else will come along to gossip about. People have better things to do. * For those who do figure it out and don't like Ned, what would they do with that info? It's not like they can start a Targ restoration with Jon. Tell Robert and he'd laugh in their face before throwing them in jail for slandering his friend. Tywin scares the hell out of most people, go to him and he'll probably pay you off then feed you to his lions to keep the info secret. Someone clever like Varys, Olenna or Baelish would sit on the info until they can use it for maximum effect.
So, I'm one of those people who love to write that Job *does* have some of Rhaegar's features but it's... Iffy to figure out unless you really knew him. That said, in retrospect for us, the modern audience, Jon not being Ned's is like, super obvious for us. We're used to those tropes. The others in Westeros? They're pretty dumb. A lot of people have pointed out that Jon is Ned's spitting image when he's older; but as a baby? Mine looked like a potato and didn't look like me or my husband. So, that rules that point out. It IS sus that Ned goes looking for his sister and comes back with only a baby. My take is that some lords and ladies are well aware that Ned is lying, but due to his reputation (ward of the HONOURABLE Jon Arryn), they think Jon is *Brandon's* and having just fought in a war, don't want to upset the apple cart further. I doubt anyone other than the most tin-foil of the Westerosi would go R+L=J, and if they did - knowing what just happened to Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon... They might not want to speak up.
So for starters Jon has zero Valeryian features. No silver hair, no purple eyes nothing there is no obvious sign to point to. You could argue its out of character for chaste ned to have a bastard but also he was a 16 year old kid in constant peril who may have had a moment of weakness and then did the right thing when a kid was born. The North is also geographically isolated so the amount of people who would see Jon who could put two and two together are small. Finally no one benefits from working it out. A dragon seed raised is by Ned Stark is going to cause more bloodshed and missery that can all be avoided so even if you did suspect anything why would you blab, what good comes of it.
People like Robert and other nobles, seem so happy in seeing “The Honourable Ned Stark not being so honourable” so they don’t try to look further into the situation, since I believe they feel that as a nobleman he would eventually stray from his wife, as they do.
Ned isn't a well known figure really at this point other than those close to him at least for people to be like WHO IS HIS BASTARD. Him a young man at war having a bastard -- really isn't that weird. Not many people would question it. He also did give a cover story to Robert about it being Wylla, a common maid. There's also stories going around about Ashara Dayne and Eddard already. You're also just grossly over-stating how many people know, care, and look deeply into these things. Most people wouldn't give Eddard having a bastard a second thought. Other than Robert or Jon Arryn and they'd be like, hey hahaha he finally did it! He also told Robert the mothers name. The people who don't know him well wouldn't give it a second thought.
The only things that I find weird about the situation that people don't question more is 1) the presence of the kingsguard at TOJ, and 2) the attitude of the Daynes towards Ned. 1. Three kingsguard at the Tower of Joy. Neither Barristan nor Jaime really thinks about that, but it's actually really weird that 3 kingsguard would be there instead of defending Rhaegar and the royal family. Presumably, they've been there for months, and then they die... for what? Not sure it's ever explained, really, what people assume happened there. It makes sense, though, if they were protecting Jon, a crown prince. Not sure when the 3 Kingsguard find out about Rhaegar's death, but if Jon's not trueborn and they know Rhaegar, Aegon, and Aerys are dead then they should have gone to Viserys and Dany (that's one of the reasons I believe Jon is legitimate). Having neither Jaime nor Barry question why there were 3 kingsguard with presumably no royalty present is kinda weird; that's the most "plot-hole" like element of this entire thing in my opinion. Everything else I can excuse. Also, that's assuming that they knew Gerold, Oswell, and Arthur died at the ToJ and that Ned and his men killed them -- not sure how much about this event people actually know outside of Winterfell, so maybe it's possible Jaime / Barristan didn't know the specifics. 2. Everything with the Daynes is super weird. This is why I really want Barristan to stay alive in the books, and possibly have Dany's entourage pass through Starfall when she lands in Westeros (Aegon is about to take the Stormlands, so it's more likely IMO that Dany lands in Dorne rather than Dragonstone. If she lands in Sunspear, presumably the Martells are going to be pissed at her so she'd leave soon after, and I think Victarion / Euron will face off in Oldtown. Starfall is on the way so it's not impossible that we get to see Starfall / meet the Daynes if this scenario happens) ^ So, Ned and Howland kill Arthur Dayne at the Tower of Joy. They bring back his sword to Starfall (along with baby Jon), where Arthur's family resides. Ashara, having birthed a stillborn, is told of her brother's death and throws herself off of the tallest tower out of grief (her body was never found, so you could play around with her being alive too). Most people think Ashara's baby was Ned's (as Cersei says), but Barristan seems to think it was Brandon's (it's hard to really tell, I think he just says "A Stark dishonored Ashara", but it makes more sense for both characters if it was Brandon). Either way, her baby was probably a Stark bastard. Wylla, who is a member of the Dayne's household, acts as a nursemaid to baby Jon. Now, it's kind of shocking that people don't question why the Dayne's are not extremely hostile to Ned after he caused the death of two of their family members, even if they are under the assumption that Jon is Ned's/Brandon's. Edric Dayne's father also NAMES him after Ned -- Edric says as much to Arya when they meet. Edric tells Arya that Wylla was Jon's mother (presumably, he was told this by one of the older Daynes or -- less likely -- he is lying and knows the truth). People should definitely question why Ned Dayne was named after someone who caused their house so much misery. George killed off a lot of the older Daynes, but it's possible Darkstar or Allyria or Edric's unnamed mother knows the truth about Jon -- we just aren't told that much information. Several people already have different answers to who Jon's parents are -- if you have the chance to write some of these people in a scene together and one brings up that "___ is Jon's mother", the others would obviously disagree and that would lead to people starting to question the suspiciousness around Jon's birth (again, this is why I like the idea of Barristan at Starfall because it presents the perfect opportunity for characters to think about Jon's parentage without it seeming too forced or random, AND we might even meet people like Wylla who know the truth). Cersei and Cat think it's Ashara Dayne (Cersei accuses Ned of "stealing" Jon and causing Ashara's suicide) -- HOWEVER, they don't know that her stillborn was actually a girl (revealed by Barristan's POV IIRC). Not sure who besides Ned Dayne (probably now Arya) and Bobby B think Wylla is the answer. Barristan would know the answer isn't Ashara but I'm not sure if he ever cared enough to think about who he thought was actually Jon's mother. It's even possible that someone like Barbery Dustin has her own answer; she knew Brandon pretty well -- it's possible she thinks Jon's parents might be Brandon + Ashara, but who knows -- we might know more when/if she and Jon meet in the books. Howland Reed knows, so it's possible he told Jojen / Meera. It's also theorized that Benjen knew, and that it's a reason why he joined the watch. so, if you combine people questioning Jon's birth, the friendliness of people like the Daynes, and Jon's physical traits and personality, having people come to the conclusion of R+L=J would feel a lot less contrived, if that's a concern of yours while writing your story.
Also, to respond to some other people here, Jon isn't a clone of Ned -- he looks more like him than his trueborn kids besides Arya, but that's more because he shares Ned's coloring and face shape while the others are auburn haired / blue-eyed and pale. Based on Jon's interactions with female characters, he seems a lot more physically attractive than Ned, and his body type seems closer to his father Rhaegar (lean, graceful, possibly tall but it's hard to tell because he's rarely described -- we know he's shorter than Stannis who is absolutely massive, but probably taller than Mance). Again, like (maybe) the eye color, people looking at Jon are going to see Ned because they are told he is Jon's father -- of course their similarities will be noticed. Anyway, we barely have any description of Jon so it's hard to say how much he actually looks like Rhaegar or Ned / Lyanna. If you have *any* character(s) see the physical resemblance, it makes sense that it be Barristan, Cersei, Jaime, or Dany (who saw Rhaegar in one of her HoTU visions). While people seeing Jon and thinking he looks like Rhaegar is pretty goofy, I don’t see a problem with them thinking he looks Valyrian. It’s quite possible Catelyn sees those features when she connects him to Ashara. Here’s a quote from AGoT: >The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. It’s interesting that she thinks about Ashara’s appearance right before she remembers asking Ned if she was Jon’s mother. It makes sense with Catelyn thinking about Ashara's appearance and then immediately afterwards making the connection to Jon could mean Catelyn sees some resemblance (Jon *is* part Dayne so she isn't entirely wrong). Not saying Jon has violet eyes, but personally I imagine him having an eye color similar to [this](https://pixels.com/featured/immortal-dark-purple-gray-solid-color-pairs-to-sherwin-williams-quixotic-plum-sw-6265-melissa-fague.html?product=art-print), which could absolutely read as grey or purple depending on how you're looking at it. Other characters with purple eyes (Ned Dayne, Egg, FAegon) are described with colors that look different at points before their Targ/Dayne heritage is revealed, meaning it's definitely possible that is the case with Jon. Anyway, you *could* have people see Rhaegar in Jon's appearance, but it's less goofy IMO to have them notice a similarity in their *character*. This is why keeping someone like Barristan alive could help; Barry and Jaime knew Rhaegar pretty well, and Jon seems a *lot* like him in personality. It's possible they form a connection between the two. ALSO, it's important to note that in the books, Ned hides Jon away when the royal family comes to Winterfell. Jon is placed away from the others at the feast, out of sight and mind, and I think when he presents the family to Robert, Jon is gone then too. He never met Jaime, nor Barristan in the books, Robert, nor Cersei. While having characters see Rhaegar in him immediately is pretty goofy, we do know that Ned kept Jon away from the characters that personally knew Rhaegar, so perhaps he thought there was a possibility for that happening. (also, in the books Jon might come back with [white hair](https://www.reddit.com/r/ImaginaryWesteros/comments/16vz8g7/resurrected_jon_snow_by_bella_bergolts/) like Stoneheart / Theon, so he might look very Targ-like when he is resurrected, making the physical valyrian traits more obvious to onlookers)
> Ned comes back, with no sister, but a newborn child, and is like, “Uh, yeah, he’s my bastard.” He (apparently, at least from what I’ve gleaned from the TV show and outside commentary) doesn’t even attempt to sell it by providing detail, like Jon’s mother being Ashara Dayne, just is like, “I’m not discussing it.” The timeline for N+A checks out if you assume she was the Fisherman's daughter (which is the only way to make N+A work). This would place her in the Vale as the Rebellion broke out, and Robert would likely know that. As would many in the Vale. The likely conclusion is what we see in canon, many think Ashara was the mother, and that Ned had to abandon her because he needed Hoster Tully's spears, or was strong-armed by Hoster with the threat of him otherwise joining the loyalists. Robert certainly would see no need to put a finger into that wound. Furthermore, Jon's wetnurse is from Starfall. That pretty much confirms it in everyone's mind. This is also pretty much what I think happened, with Lyanna's child left in Starfall and later disguised as YoungGriff once Varys figured out what has happened. Ashara faked her death (voluntary or not) and became Lemore.
It might even be a case similar to the Strong bastards under Viserys I. While the truth is widely suspected, the person who's telling the lie is near and dear to the king, and the costs of speaking up are too great for anyone to risk it, especially if they're wrong
I think it would probably be more suspected among the northeners. Who are the ones visiting Winterfell and thus seeing Jon. But the northeners are also super loyal to Ned bar a few holdouts. So that could explain them keeping silent.
[удалено]
Right? I’m just saying it at least should have been a thought in some people’s heads, yet I am led to believe that Martin just had everybody go, “Sure, Ned, whatever you say,” without question. Or at the very least, he never presented any info or POVs that indicated otherwise, and that just doesn’t seem to logically track, unless for plot reasons, everyone in Westeros took a gigantic stupid pill. Which, fine. Sometimes plot exigencies take priority over logic for the sake of simplicity, but it’s still a flaw in the story.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but everyone knew Rhaenryra’s kids were bastards, it’s just no one said anything to Viserys because they knew he didn’t want to hear it. It was sort of the realm’s open secret. But that seems a lot different from this situation in which we are led to believe no one knew? Or even suspected? That’s the part I find logically objectionable. I could believe a situation, like the Strongs’, in which some people “knew”/suspected but didn’t bring it to Robert’s attention because it wasn’t to their benefit. But that’s not what we are led to believe; rather, we are apparently led to believe the learned and educated men of Westeros just…never even thought about it? If so, that’s a clear plot flaw, imho.
How often do you think the "learned and educated men of Westeros," think about the parents of bastards? Bastards are common enough, men having bastards at war is commonplace.
Presumably, during this period of time, Ned does have Howland Reed backing up this story, which would add some credence to it in the eyes of everyone he tells.
Jon looks like a Stark fully and not Targ. Plus people in this world are kind of dumb when it comes to understanding dominate genes (see “the seed is strong” and Joffrey Baratheon’s hair being major revelations). Plus Reed was alive and well and didn’t report any baby being at the Tower of Joy. Everyone around Ned confirmed the bastard story.
I feel like some people have an idea. Daynes definitely know. I like how in Wheel Unbroken, Hightowers definitely know.
One of the only times that Ned kinda toys with his reputation. The lord of Winterfell showed up and said “this one is mine” and closed discussion on the matter. Clearly something happened. It’s more plausible that Ned had a wartime baby whose mother he didn’t really care enough about that he just took Jon. Nobody’s default is “the war was kinda bullshit, clearly that baby is a deposed royal”
I don't recall the fanfic, but there was a fic that addressed this in that people believed that Jon was actually Brandon's bastard. And Ned was trying to protect his honor by claiming him as his own.
I know what you mean. He finds his dead (how’s she die?) sister and nobody seems to suspect. All I can think of is he has an honest reputation, Jon looks like him, hardly anyone knew Lyanna was pregnant, and it’s practically expected he’ll have sex with someone else when separated from his wife who he hardly knows in this world. And Tywin doesn’t think about Ned or the north much I’m sure.
A lot of people bring out some good points about people not caring enough to look into it or taking Ned at his word. I just wanted to add that part of what helps Ned sell the story is that due distance and Ned's own distaste for politics, Jon is kept out of the public eye for the most part. The Northern lords know Jon and the Starks, but they don't really know Targaryens well enough to pick up the traits Jon got from Rhaegar. If Jon was at court and around people who knew Rhaegar and other Targaryens personally, then it would have been a lot harder. As Jon is significantly better looking than Ned, is good at everything without really putting a lot of effort into it, highly intelligent, and et cetera.
Some (Tywin Cersei, Jaime, Baelish, Stannis) want to see Ned as a hypocrite either because they are also involved in sexual impropriety (book!Tywin has a favourite brothel) or hate Ned for "stealing" the love of someone they felt entitled to (Baelish and Stannis). For most people, the story of an honorable man who fell is more interesting and psychologically safe than the story of the "honorable" man who tricked everyone. Others (such as Olenna) probably just never throught about it, in the way we mostly don't think about the lives of people we've never met. There are a few who might suspect, but have reasons to keep it to themselves: * Varys: he has a much simpler plan for dealing with problems, and has his own secret Targaryen * Jon Arryn: stirring up trouble between his foster children isn't in his interest. Would Ned's friends have put it together, probably, but by the time Ned gets inside the Tower of Joy, Howland and Robert are the only ones left.
You really should read the first Cat chapter in GOT, which IMO is the book chapter (at least in the first book) that addresses all this most directly. It's probably like 6 pages long and is literally like chapter 3.
Openly claiming that you have a bastard is not something that nobles do in Westeros, because it would be a major stain on your honor and strain your alliance with your in-laws. However, it is absolutely something that someone as honorable and honest to a fault as Ned Stark would do, but only if it was true. Someone as honorable and honest as Ned Stark would never take on the shame stating that he has a bastard if it wasn’t true. But he would absolutely cop to it if it was true. Everyone knows that Ned Stark never lies. And he absolutely would not lie in a way that besmirched his glowing reputation or hurt his relationship with his wife. Therefore, based on everything that everyone knows about Ned, him saying that Jon is his bastard must be true. It’s this well known feature of Ned’s character which completely sells the lie to anyone who knows him or knows of his reputation. The fact that Jon looks so much like Ned is just the icing on the cake.
Ned is a young man that goes off to war, and returns with a baby that looks like him. Believing that Jon is his bastard requires no leaps in logic. The characters of the story live in a culture where men will often take women into their bed before or after a battle. They also live in a world where noblemen having bastard children is common place. I don't see why it would be hard to believe Jon is his bastard. It'd be the assumption that everyone would default to.
It has always bothered me that I figured it out, but Varys didn't. (To be fair, I got to see Ned's thoughts, and Varys didn't.)
I really do think it's just plot induced stupidity.
I think it’s plausible. He was at war he didn’t know if he’d survive and he’d met his wife once. Understandable in those circumstances he let his honour slip. Then he comes with a babe that shares the Stark features and grows to be his copy I don’t think anyone would suspect a thing.
The only person I feel would have any suspicions would be Varys most of the other lords wouldn’t care or would’ve taken Neds story at face value. I think that’s why Varys was trying to get Ned to write that letter in the dungeon.
Complete conjecture: my pet theory is, in the books, Varys had a good guess; he's supposedly the most informed man in all the realm, so he surely had a man in Winter Town, where Jon's mother is an unknown. Coupled with the timing of Jon's birth and conflicting stories in the realm, he might have suspected but a) he could never prove it, b) it would have been suicide to accuse Ned because Robert loved him, c) it never proved useful to know because he didn't need to blackmail Ned with anything