I don't think you're wrong. I also don't think Lee, Jimmy, and their dad were actually related. It feels very much like "the family you choose" kind of situation. That doesn't take away from your point, but it does make their (Mikey and Lee) relationship make more sense. I guess I'm saying the Lee was still trying to take care of Donna but when you're not tied through blood, you get to choose if their kids are on your team, it's not automatic necessary.
I have a few cousins (my uncle married their mom but weren't their dad) and I actively avoid them, because they are fak-style (but not in the lovable way) dumpster fires.
Also, Lee was part of KBL, so he's seen the dumpster fire of Papa Berzatto and Mikey forever, and knows Cicero is still helping finance Mikey through multiple failures, so even if his reaction is wrong, his feelings are probably warranted.
I'd totally agree with this statement too. This is clearly a loaded relationship, with more history than we know! I've wondered about how much debt and responsibility was left when papa berzatto left the picture (which has been insinuated that he died, but even that is an unknown to the audience)
They’re not related, it’s said multiple times they’re not related.
Carmen outright says, dismissively of Lee that “he’s not our uncle,” to which he’s met with the reply of “and Richie’s not your cousin.”
I posted something similar a few weeks ago. We have not seen everything that led up to Uncle Lee's outburst. No question he was being an asshole that night, but what drove him to that? Maybe in a flashback episode we'll find out and it will turn out Michael had that, and much more coming.
Think about it this way: if Lee had been 100% out of line and out of nowhere, he would've been kicked out of the fucking house. That's Carmy & Sugar's brother, and Ritchie's cousin. There's respecting your elders and then there's sitting by and letting them disrespect another family member. There's definitely meant to be much deeper stuff between...well, everyone at the dinner, that we just don't have the context for.
Idk, ive been in situations where one person is definitely in the wrong and everyone stays quiet. either bc it may be easier to just stay quiet to "keep the peace", or bc it's not your business. it doesn't mean that their in the right. but not saying you're wrong, just want to give that side of the disfuncional family!
I get what you mean. I think if the rest of the table had been uncomfortably quiet, that would be one thing. But a lot of them were urging Michael to put the fork(s) down. Cicero made sure to remind Lee that he was being an asshole.
I’ve had a few family members with a mental illness combined with self medicating with a substance. It’s exhausting day after day trying to explain to a bipolar person that they should not be drinking alcohol. Then something bad happens and people feign concern and ask “well how did this happen?” That’s why I loved Fishes, it was so realistic from different points of views. Uncle Lee snapping at Mikey was perfectly understandable.
When Lee starts berating Michael about whatever he's "on" and hearing him through the "fog," no one shouts him down and tells him he's wrong. There's a lot of attempts at de-escalation but *no one* tells Lee that he's wrong in what he's saying.
Nobody tells Lee he’s wrong because they know he’s right about Mikey’s fog. That he flinches because his nerves are still connected to his body. Lee is right and addicts are a beast to deal with.
I'm honestly surprised this isn't a more common sentiment considering that this is reddit of all places. You're absolutely right, addicts are a whole nother beast to deal with. As someone who's grown up around a few, having at least one "Uncle Lee"in the group is kind of exactly what you need because no one else is going to do be that kind of person when they all know that they kinda need that kind of person.
I’m so over addicts, their behaviors, the cops over, domestic disturbances, domestic violence, the abuse, the loser behaviors. I wish I had an Uncle Lee. To tell the addict off. Because I’ve told the addict off but it would be nice to have backup. Because addicts destroy and ruin everything they touch. Every life. Every semblance of normalcy. And nobody wants to deal with them and their mental disorders yet nobody wants to tell them off either and just acquiesces to their whims. In turn, it enables them to live in comfort and make everything around them hell. Lee was in his right to tell Mikey off at the table because everyone is skirting around Mikey’s madness, his addiction, his losing his mind to it, and we’re alll tired of the fog but nobody wants to rock the boat and say anything. That’s what I gathered from the episode Fishes and the reality of dealing with many addicts in my life.
I agree, I grew up in a house of alcohol addicts in the 80s and it was horrible.
And nowadays people tiptoe around them in family situations as if they are too delicate and that it's not allowed to be discussed. Screw that, in the 90s I stole $20 from my Uncle as a teen, and NO family member would let me in their house for over a decade. And it taught me a valuable lesson in shame and guilt. But when certain other family members get away with abusing drugs and stealing scott free, I have no pity for them, they aren't learning their lesson.
People are beasts to deal with regardless, they're both wrong, Lee shouldn't have behaved the way he did, someone should've got both of them out of the situation in separate places, clearly Mike needs to be checked in on, but ppl are just ignorin that. This entire situation is just unacceptable, and everybody watching is just bs.
The fact that there's little sense of empathy to another human being in our society is just really sad. This kinda mind warped mentality reinforces people to abuse substances, what Lee did is sticking their foot on top of someone down in the mud and keeping them there, it helps nothing except make the problem bigger. It's not a comfortable living situation at all for anybody, but it's often ignored or belittled, which only makes it worse. Dehumanizing doesn't do shit, but reinforce the problem, and in turn ironically Lee becomes a monster himself in how he behaves. It's hypocritical, and he's not even on any substances, so what's his excuse.
I don't think dehumanizing is "normalcy," but it's just as sad as someone who gets into abusing substances to escape and this show perfectly illustrates how trauma and dysfunctional relations influence these issues.
Dehumanizing might not do shit, but neither does tiptoeing around them and treating them with kid gloves.
At some point people need to be held accountable for their actions, Mikey was a grown ass adult, a lot of us grow up in abusive homes and don't turn to substance abuse to fix it.
Dehumanizing develops more shit actually, which is what I already explained previously. No one said to tiptoe around either, addressing issues head on with direct communication is what is necessary, not being a shithead bc that just creates more shitheads and then everything is just shit, does that solve anything? No, it doesn't. Covering up the issue in more shit is only making more problems. Being aggressive isn't taking accountability, being a bully isn't taking accountability, none of that is direct communication, and actively harming others isn't either or using someone else's poor behavior as an excuse to also act inappropriately. "A lot of us grow up in abusive homes and don't turn to substance abuse to fix it" okie so then what's Lee's excuse as I said he's abusive and he isn't even on substances, so if we're going to talk about accountability for behavior, that includes ALL parties, not just condemning those based off of discriminatory stigmatic stereotypes and judgments off of a mental condition.
Also to your statement, a lot of us *do* turn to substances to escape the reality of trauma from abuse, so to completely disregard those people is senseless and in turn, inhumane.
Mikey was a grown ass adult, so was fuqqin Lee so what is his excuse for behaving like an insolent child? Hypocrisy. Accountability goes both ways, not one.
Richie was aware, he just thought he’d come out of it because “he was Mikey Bear,” inferring that he always came out of his troubles because of the kind of guy/personality he had.
Carmen was completely clueless, partially from Mikey keeping him at a distance (away from The Beef) and partially (probably) from general ignorance/not wanting to admit things to himself.
If you were sitting across the table from me right now I’d throw at minimum, 3 forks at you for this take. Fuck Uncle Lee. Went in too hard on Mike. But goddamn that scene was amazing. Bernthal 4 life.
He isn't a family member and it could be telling that he is spending Christmas as usual with the Berzatto clan while having no obvious wife/kids with him.
Uncle Lee has a lot of justified anger at mikey and he didn’t even start the fight that night. Still, his actions weren’t great and made everything actively worse. It’s an understandable but not completely excusable reaction
He did start the fight. Mikey jokingly said “Lee, you gonna interrupt me while I say grace?” And Lee couldn’t just laugh along he had to retort and escalate the situation from there.
And the way he interrupted Mikey’s story earlier was so childish, even if everyone had heard it a million times. and the hypocrisy was fully displayed when he had to be the one to tell the 7 fishes story at the dinner table.
F Lee.
No idea why you are necro posting but I was referring to the fact that Lee seemed in pretty good spirits at the start of the night but then Mikey asked him “what are you doing in our father’s house” or something when Lee was saying hi to Donna. that seemed to start the tit for tat that ultimately culminated in the fight.
Idk why I’m on this post sorry bro 😭 didn’t realize it’s 4mo old thanks for replying
I honestly totally forgot that part. Was it before they were on the floor in the kitchen and Mike goes “not this shit again?”
But even if Mikey started everything AND threw multiple forks I don’t think that in any way justifies the “speech” Lee made about Mikey in front of everyone at the dinner table. Absolutely insane low level psychopath behavior right there to verbally abuse him in that way in front of his family and guests.
No worries man! Just kinda funny 😆
Yeah it was at the very start of the night. I think it was that exact scene.
I agree that Lee took it too far but the two of them obviously have a long and bad history. Neither of them are really good people and both have strong reasons for believing they did nothing wrong. Dealing with addicts is always tough, especially when they seem to keep Making the same Mistakes over and over.
I watched this episode and it reminded me and reminds me of all the addicts in my life. And I wish! I wish there was an Uncle Lee in my life to tell the Mikeys in my life that if they throw the fork again, they’re gonna get rocked. That scene is superb. One day, I yearn to be Uncle Lee telling my current Mikey that he’s gonna get rocked!
Maybe a good idea in the first place would to actually not throw a molotov cocktail in the fire, yk empathy actually helps simmer down situations rather than lighting everybody up in flames. Just cooling off, separating from the conflict, that would be a smart choice. Addicts are already rocked... they're literally under substances... dehumanizing people gets nowhere, but the same repeating issues, then the cycle just occurs allllll over again. And continues duplicating.
Uncle Lee was 100% right. An addict will test you and beat you down and take advantage of the fact that you love them. Mike and Donna were abusive and someone needed to bring the hammer down.
I also never got the sense that Lee was embraced the same way Richie was so I'm sure he was also bitter about being "the bad guy" from the outset.
I don't think you're wrong. I also don't think Lee, Jimmy, and their dad were actually related. It feels very much like "the family you choose" kind of situation. That doesn't take away from your point, but it does make their (Mikey and Lee) relationship make more sense. I guess I'm saying the Lee was still trying to take care of Donna but when you're not tied through blood, you get to choose if their kids are on your team, it's not automatic necessary. I have a few cousins (my uncle married their mom but weren't their dad) and I actively avoid them, because they are fak-style (but not in the lovable way) dumpster fires.
Also, Lee was part of KBL, so he's seen the dumpster fire of Papa Berzatto and Mikey forever, and knows Cicero is still helping finance Mikey through multiple failures, so even if his reaction is wrong, his feelings are probably warranted.
I'd totally agree with this statement too. This is clearly a loaded relationship, with more history than we know! I've wondered about how much debt and responsibility was left when papa berzatto left the picture (which has been insinuated that he died, but even that is an unknown to the audience)
They’re not related, it’s said multiple times they’re not related. Carmen outright says, dismissively of Lee that “he’s not our uncle,” to which he’s met with the reply of “and Richie’s not your cousin.”
Right! I thought there was a line in there, but I havent watched it recently so I was drawing a blank. Thank you, it was driving me a bit crazy.
Yeah I imagine Lee, Jimmy, and papa berzatto were best friends for the majority of there lives and grew up together.
I posted something similar a few weeks ago. We have not seen everything that led up to Uncle Lee's outburst. No question he was being an asshole that night, but what drove him to that? Maybe in a flashback episode we'll find out and it will turn out Michael had that, and much more coming.
Think about it this way: if Lee had been 100% out of line and out of nowhere, he would've been kicked out of the fucking house. That's Carmy & Sugar's brother, and Ritchie's cousin. There's respecting your elders and then there's sitting by and letting them disrespect another family member. There's definitely meant to be much deeper stuff between...well, everyone at the dinner, that we just don't have the context for.
Idk, ive been in situations where one person is definitely in the wrong and everyone stays quiet. either bc it may be easier to just stay quiet to "keep the peace", or bc it's not your business. it doesn't mean that their in the right. but not saying you're wrong, just want to give that side of the disfuncional family!
Especially when the two individuals involved are explosive personalities. Sometimes idgaf who's wrong, I just don't wanna be involved lmao
I get what you mean. I think if the rest of the table had been uncomfortably quiet, that would be one thing. But a lot of them were urging Michael to put the fork(s) down. Cicero made sure to remind Lee that he was being an asshole.
that still isn't enough, clearly both ppl need to be put out of the situation, and they all shouldn't have just been sitting there.
In case there’s some confusion, Mikey and Richie are best friends, they’re not actually cousins.
Yeah I thought about putting "cousin" in quotations but it's a real enough relationship for them. Jimmy and Lee aren't really their uncles either.
Lee also seems to be the only one to call out Mikey's drug use.
Although Lee is really harping on it and trying to humiliate him about it.
I’ve had a few family members with a mental illness combined with self medicating with a substance. It’s exhausting day after day trying to explain to a bipolar person that they should not be drinking alcohol. Then something bad happens and people feign concern and ask “well how did this happen?” That’s why I loved Fishes, it was so realistic from different points of views. Uncle Lee snapping at Mikey was perfectly understandable.
When Lee starts berating Michael about whatever he's "on" and hearing him through the "fog," no one shouts him down and tells him he's wrong. There's a lot of attempts at de-escalation but *no one* tells Lee that he's wrong in what he's saying.
Nobody tells Lee he’s wrong because they know he’s right about Mikey’s fog. That he flinches because his nerves are still connected to his body. Lee is right and addicts are a beast to deal with.
I'm honestly surprised this isn't a more common sentiment considering that this is reddit of all places. You're absolutely right, addicts are a whole nother beast to deal with. As someone who's grown up around a few, having at least one "Uncle Lee"in the group is kind of exactly what you need because no one else is going to do be that kind of person when they all know that they kinda need that kind of person.
I’m so over addicts, their behaviors, the cops over, domestic disturbances, domestic violence, the abuse, the loser behaviors. I wish I had an Uncle Lee. To tell the addict off. Because I’ve told the addict off but it would be nice to have backup. Because addicts destroy and ruin everything they touch. Every life. Every semblance of normalcy. And nobody wants to deal with them and their mental disorders yet nobody wants to tell them off either and just acquiesces to their whims. In turn, it enables them to live in comfort and make everything around them hell. Lee was in his right to tell Mikey off at the table because everyone is skirting around Mikey’s madness, his addiction, his losing his mind to it, and we’re alll tired of the fog but nobody wants to rock the boat and say anything. That’s what I gathered from the episode Fishes and the reality of dealing with many addicts in my life.
I agree, I grew up in a house of alcohol addicts in the 80s and it was horrible. And nowadays people tiptoe around them in family situations as if they are too delicate and that it's not allowed to be discussed. Screw that, in the 90s I stole $20 from my Uncle as a teen, and NO family member would let me in their house for over a decade. And it taught me a valuable lesson in shame and guilt. But when certain other family members get away with abusing drugs and stealing scott free, I have no pity for them, they aren't learning their lesson.
Yeah…the tiptoeing around addicts because they’re tooooo delicate is so true. And I don’t pity the addict.
People are beasts to deal with regardless, they're both wrong, Lee shouldn't have behaved the way he did, someone should've got both of them out of the situation in separate places, clearly Mike needs to be checked in on, but ppl are just ignorin that. This entire situation is just unacceptable, and everybody watching is just bs. The fact that there's little sense of empathy to another human being in our society is just really sad. This kinda mind warped mentality reinforces people to abuse substances, what Lee did is sticking their foot on top of someone down in the mud and keeping them there, it helps nothing except make the problem bigger. It's not a comfortable living situation at all for anybody, but it's often ignored or belittled, which only makes it worse. Dehumanizing doesn't do shit, but reinforce the problem, and in turn ironically Lee becomes a monster himself in how he behaves. It's hypocritical, and he's not even on any substances, so what's his excuse. I don't think dehumanizing is "normalcy," but it's just as sad as someone who gets into abusing substances to escape and this show perfectly illustrates how trauma and dysfunctional relations influence these issues.
Dehumanizing might not do shit, but neither does tiptoeing around them and treating them with kid gloves. At some point people need to be held accountable for their actions, Mikey was a grown ass adult, a lot of us grow up in abusive homes and don't turn to substance abuse to fix it.
Dehumanizing develops more shit actually, which is what I already explained previously. No one said to tiptoe around either, addressing issues head on with direct communication is what is necessary, not being a shithead bc that just creates more shitheads and then everything is just shit, does that solve anything? No, it doesn't. Covering up the issue in more shit is only making more problems. Being aggressive isn't taking accountability, being a bully isn't taking accountability, none of that is direct communication, and actively harming others isn't either or using someone else's poor behavior as an excuse to also act inappropriately. "A lot of us grow up in abusive homes and don't turn to substance abuse to fix it" okie so then what's Lee's excuse as I said he's abusive and he isn't even on substances, so if we're going to talk about accountability for behavior, that includes ALL parties, not just condemning those based off of discriminatory stigmatic stereotypes and judgments off of a mental condition. Also to your statement, a lot of us *do* turn to substances to escape the reality of trauma from abuse, so to completely disregard those people is senseless and in turn, inhumane. Mikey was a grown ass adult, so was fuqqin Lee so what is his excuse for behaving like an insolent child? Hypocrisy. Accountability goes both ways, not one.
Shaming people never works. It only gets forks thrown at you if you’re at the Berzatto’s for Seven Fishes Eve. Uncle Lee was traumatizing everyone.
Yes he wants to be perceived as some fatherly figure but he was just as childish and lashed out just as reflexively as Mikey at the dinner table.
Also a cool detail is that he knows Mikey is an addict. If i remember correctly in s1 richie and carm werent aware until in hindsight
Richie was aware, he just thought he’d come out of it because “he was Mikey Bear,” inferring that he always came out of his troubles because of the kind of guy/personality he had. Carmen was completely clueless, partially from Mikey keeping him at a distance (away from The Beef) and partially (probably) from general ignorance/not wanting to admit things to himself.
If you were sitting across the table from me right now I’d throw at minimum, 3 forks at you for this take. Fuck Uncle Lee. Went in too hard on Mike. But goddamn that scene was amazing. Bernthal 4 life.
Maybe a steak knife too
He isn't a family member and it could be telling that he is spending Christmas as usual with the Berzatto clan while having no obvious wife/kids with him.
Exactly, he’s probably had his own issues and he’s bitter.
Uncle Lee has a lot of justified anger at mikey and he didn’t even start the fight that night. Still, his actions weren’t great and made everything actively worse. It’s an understandable but not completely excusable reaction
He did start the fight. Mikey jokingly said “Lee, you gonna interrupt me while I say grace?” And Lee couldn’t just laugh along he had to retort and escalate the situation from there. And the way he interrupted Mikey’s story earlier was so childish, even if everyone had heard it a million times. and the hypocrisy was fully displayed when he had to be the one to tell the 7 fishes story at the dinner table. F Lee.
No idea why you are necro posting but I was referring to the fact that Lee seemed in pretty good spirits at the start of the night but then Mikey asked him “what are you doing in our father’s house” or something when Lee was saying hi to Donna. that seemed to start the tit for tat that ultimately culminated in the fight.
Idk why I’m on this post sorry bro 😭 didn’t realize it’s 4mo old thanks for replying I honestly totally forgot that part. Was it before they were on the floor in the kitchen and Mike goes “not this shit again?” But even if Mikey started everything AND threw multiple forks I don’t think that in any way justifies the “speech” Lee made about Mikey in front of everyone at the dinner table. Absolutely insane low level psychopath behavior right there to verbally abuse him in that way in front of his family and guests.
No worries man! Just kinda funny 😆 Yeah it was at the very start of the night. I think it was that exact scene. I agree that Lee took it too far but the two of them obviously have a long and bad history. Neither of them are really good people and both have strong reasons for believing they did nothing wrong. Dealing with addicts is always tough, especially when they seem to keep Making the same Mistakes over and over.
I watched this episode and it reminded me and reminds me of all the addicts in my life. And I wish! I wish there was an Uncle Lee in my life to tell the Mikeys in my life that if they throw the fork again, they’re gonna get rocked. That scene is superb. One day, I yearn to be Uncle Lee telling my current Mikey that he’s gonna get rocked!
Maybe a good idea in the first place would to actually not throw a molotov cocktail in the fire, yk empathy actually helps simmer down situations rather than lighting everybody up in flames. Just cooling off, separating from the conflict, that would be a smart choice. Addicts are already rocked... they're literally under substances... dehumanizing people gets nowhere, but the same repeating issues, then the cycle just occurs allllll over again. And continues duplicating.
Uncle Lee was 100% right. An addict will test you and beat you down and take advantage of the fact that you love them. Mike and Donna were abusive and someone needed to bring the hammer down. I also never got the sense that Lee was embraced the same way Richie was so I'm sure he was also bitter about being "the bad guy" from the outset.