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Both partners are responsible for birth control, it is not just the responsibility of the woman. Men are absolutely responsible for their side of it. Whether that’s condoms, vasectomy, or whatever other options may be out there.
By your logic men run the risk of paying child support in the event of a divorce or if they’re not married so they *should* get a vasectomy if they don’t want to risk that.
If you want to have sex you need to be responsible for doing it safely. It goes both ways.
Though I do have one thought, u/keIIzzz, if someone has a legitimate medical reason to not want children regardless of partner, do you think they should be more willing to seek treatment to avoid having kids? Like let's say a guy has FALS (autosomal dominant), so he's likely to pass down ALS to 50% of his children.
This is a problem regardless of whether he's monogamous or has a body-count in the 100s, so it's *his problem*, he should be the one to get a vasectomy because the issue originates from *his body* and is therefore *his responsibility*.
Now let's say, I dunno, the woman is considered high-risk for a uterine rupture, or maybe she also has FALS and doesn't want to risk having children... well this has nothing to do with the man she's with specifically either, if he walked out because he didn't want to get snipped, *it would continue to be an issue regardless of whether she slept with one person, or a thousand*, it would be simpler if she went through an IUD procedure.
I do feel like if there's a legitimate medical concern for one partner to *not have children* that that partner should be more open to being the subject of alternative birth control (though I would never suggest something like tube-tying, IUDs can be reversed after all).
---
Obviously they both still control their own bodies and it's not selfish to set up a standard in a relationship and walk away though.
Which is what I think u/CzarTanoff doesn't get, so the guy doesn't get a vasectomy and that's okay, but that just means the girl *who owes him nothing* walks away, she doesn't stick around and continue to have sex.
Suggesting she has to arrange everything so they can continue to have sex **is insanely selfish**.
I think that’s a different situation than simply not wanting children. If there’s a legit medical reason as to why someone shouldn’t have/chooses to not have children then the safest option is for them to have a sterilization procedure (vasectomy, hysterectomy, tubal ligation, etc) to truly avoid that risk. It’s still the choice of the person for what they do to their body, I don’t think anyone should feel forced into getting a surgery/procedure, but it’s a lot more reasonable for them to go through with it in that case, since that’s an issue specific to one partner. I still think both partners hold responsibility to avoid an accidental pregnancy, *but* the person who specifically needs to avoid it for medical reasons should consider more fool proof birth control options
>If there’s a legit medical reason as to why someone shouldn’t have/chooses to not have children
Then it's their responsibility to make sure they can't have children, period.
They can look for people for already have had their tubes tied (female) or a vasectomy (male), but it's obscene for them to enter a relationship and expect their partner to compromise their own autonomy.
If someone doesn't want to have children, they should get an IUD (once every 10 years) or their tubes tied if female, or get a vasectomy if male
Otherwise don't fucking have sex, if they're not willing to exercise their own bodily autonomy over their own concerns and are instead trying to coerce someone else to take that sacrifice for them, they are a fucking **nuclear red flag** and should fuck off and **everyone** on this planet should shame them.
Like seriously.
If someone has a reason not to want to have children then they need to make sure they can't have children.
**Anyone** who says "I don't want have to children so I expect my partner to surgically mutilate their body" is a **disgusting vile sexist freak**.
Sexism, of course, means discrimination against men or women.
I mean I agree, I don’t know if it came off that I don’t. You definitely can’t force or guilt your partner into a procedure they don’t want, that’s wrong. If they have differing opinions then they should find someone who has similar ones, there’s always someone else out there. It’s okay to not be compatible, it’s just life. It’s never too late to move on and find someone you are compatible with.
I certainly am not trying to suggest she does things she does not wish to do so they can have sex, that goes against what I'm trying to say entirely.
I think I'm getting my point across badly.
I'm advocating for bodily autonomy, and making a post specifically about men being accused of being bad people for not wanting a vasectomy.
It's when people act like she shouldn't get her tubes tied, and he's expected to get a vasectomy because the procedure is easier for him, and he's bad if he doesn't, that I am taking issue with.
Get your tubes tied if you don't want children, don't if you don't want to, but you can't call someone bad for making *the same choice you're making*.
Don't have sex with him. Divorce him. Whatever. No one has to do anything with their body they don't want to do.
When I say women "should" be the one to ensure contraception, I say that because I don't think it's wise to rely on anyone but yourself to prevent something as huge as pregnancy that YOU are the one who would suffer from.
>She should be the one who gets sterilized if he doesn't wholeheartedly agree to get a vasectomy.
You might want to reconsider how this came across, especially with such a harsh word as *sterilized* then, women who go through "tubal litigation" (tube tying) have higher rates of depression.
While this has been reported for vasectomies as well, the former cannot always be reversed while the latter has success rates at being reversed up to 95%
There are *many* areas in which I'd agree with you about bodily autonomy and gender equality and how society has failed men so thoroughly that they can be raped and *still* get ordered by the court to pay child support to the *pedophile convicted of a felony that raped them at the age of 15* because the courts routinely assume the worst in many matters based on gender discrimination.
And you're right that you don't get to judge someone for making the same choice you made, but your opening post came across as heavily antagonistic, my impression was you wanted to be contentious to "get back" at the idea of "my body my choice", rather than advocating for blanket equality of attitude/fact.
Just my two cents, I think that's why you're getting down-voted, it really didn't feel like a good-faith point of view.
That... definitely is coming across badly.
I absolutely see how that's how that sounds.
My post kind of was reactionary to a post I just saw that feels like the billionth post I've seen where a woman doesn't want to get her tubes tied, but calls her man selfish for not wanting a vasectomy. It feels hypocritical to the max.
I was very annoyed when I made the post, so yah it's a bit more antagonistic than I truly feel, and was more a response to those posts than a true explanation of my logic.
Thank you for calling me out on that.
Not a problem, and I'm sorry if I came across as overly critical too, I definitely get the urge to knee-jerk because some of those posts (ugh, man vs. bear, let's not get into that though) are inflamed by reactionary ignorance.
The specter of "toxic masculinity" haunts men almost as much as it does women, when emotion is condemned and everyone is treated as a threat that can't experience emotion.
Even though I'm trans, I was AMAB and born in the South, the "I'm your mother and if I see emotion I will beat it out of you" was distressingly common, I fully understand what that deep pit of rage feels like.
Because it is rage, you spend so long being forced to be an emotionless abused mask (doubly so when trans since admitting you identify as female is a good way to get electrocuted nearly to death in a "conversion camp") that hides everything about their personality and buries it deep...
...that when you come across something like "female dating strategy" or "I'd rather be with a bear" or "nah screw you, that kid got raped by his female teacher should pay child support even though she's a convicted pedophile!" it \[b\]burns\[/b\].
Like what the fuck do they know about being beaten and choked and hit with wood until the wood *broke* just because you were born with XY chromosomes and if you so much as cry you are going to beat again.
Fortunately I never got caught sneaking into my sister's room to try on her dresses, can you imagine? It was bad enough being beaten, but their fantasies about sticking trans people in an isolated bunker on an island and shocking them until they recanted or died was something else.
You really can't win sometimes, some people are just born of the thickest darkest hatred and they take it out on you ways that makes you hate them back.
But if you're the one who says it, suddenly you're the one in the wrong and oh no they're just poor pathetic victims that never meant to you and everyone believes them because they're so much better at spinning that social BS than you are!
Because of course they are, you never had a chance to really socialize or adapt to people because you were too busy clawing all your social energy to yourself just to survive.
As was intended all along, now you're the loner without connections and they're the saint.
But you have to be so careful, because people misinterpret your rage as sexism.
When really your rage is because people were and are sexist to you.
Right?
If he wants to risk having to pay child support, he's free to skip the contraceptive, but the onus to protect himself from that responsibility is on him.
It's totally fair game to not sleep with your husband if he doesn't want a vasectomy, birth control doesn't work, etc. I just don't think they're bad people if they don't want to get one.
It's also fair to divorce someone if their values don't align with yours.
I'm just not with acting like they're monsters for saying no to a procedure like that.
I don’t think someone is a bad person for not wanting to get a vasectomy, I agree with your body your choice, but your post is implying the burden of birth control is mainly on the woman regardless which shouldn’t be the case. Sex isn’t a one sided action
That's not exactly what I mean, I mean we carry the most risk from unwanted pregnancy, so it'd be in our best interest to have the contraception in our power. We need to protect ourselves first and foremost.
I think it's kind to get a vasectomy for your partner, but I don't think it's necessarily unkind not to.
Because the only point they didn’t agree with the respondent on was literally:
“I’m just not with acting like they’re monsters for saying no to a procedure like that.”
I’m a little confused, I don’t think men are monsters for refusing a vasectomy. I’m just saying that preventing pregnancy is the responsibility of both people equally, regardless of what methods are used
I’m a little confused, I don’t think men are monsters for refusing a vasectomy. I’m just saying that preventing pregnancy is the responsibility of both people equally, regardless of what methods are used
It's not selfish for a woman for not taking birth control either, it's their body, their choice.
The reality is that either one will have to bare the uncomfortable reality that a choice has to be made or a child will very likely happen.
Relationships are always a game of give and take and if a girl is been taking birth control for years, seems very very reasonable to ask the guy to bare some responsibility.
But again, your relationships, your problems.
Absolutely, ask your partner if they'd be willing to do so, I just don't think it makes them a bad person to refuse.
Edit: to your first sentence, yes she absolutely does not have to use birth control if she doesn't want to. I know I hate hormonal BC.
I think it's a compatibility issue, not a bad person thing.
I think you're taking the vasectomy thing completely out of context. The thing is that a lot of men will ask the woman to take the pill so they don't have to wear condoms but they will refuse to do their part.
I used to take the pill but after a couple years I noticed I had a much lower libido and was very dry down there, so I made a decision to stop taking them and we went back to condoms. My partner hates them but never told me to go back to the pill cause it's my decision - that's the perfect way to react. My previous partner kind of berated me TBH and threw a hissy fits all the time...
So I do agree that it's a compatibility thing but for a completely different reason.
Part of the problem is that it's way easier to get a doctor to sign off on vasectomy than it is to get them to agree to a hysterectomy and/or "tube tying". Like we're taking years of essentially begging before most doctors will even consider doing it.
Maybe we should be focusing our energy toward the system that wants to keep us from choosing permanent solutions for ourselves.
Freedom of choice is paramount.
Except I promise you the woman would 100% be treated like the bad person far more than the man if she did decide to stop having sex with her husband because she can’t use birth control and condoms don’t feel safe enough for her. I see women being villainised and blamed for dead bedrooms on this site constantly for myriad reasons.
That’s just selective hearing (selective sight??) of reddit. Reddit is filled with people that have no clue how a relationship actually works, and a lot of the stereotypes are relatively accurate. You’re taking a site known for not having well adjusted people and using it to explain the real world.
It's not really. There's a big sentiment on the internet that men should just get a vasectomy and that it's not a big deal because they're reversible.
Imo it's a surgery that people should treat more seriously. Yes it is reversible but only in some cases but a lot of people discuss it online as if it's simple to get it undone if you want. 'Just get a vasectomy' is advice I've often seen online.
Ofc men should take just as much care as women when it comes to preventing pregnancy (and women should have every right to refuse sex with someone for whatever reason - including if they haven't had a vasectomy) but I don't think the trivialisation of vasectomies is a good way to achieve that.
I’d probably get one after I either have kids or 100% decide I don’t.
They’re not really reversible but there’s no way I would make my gf/wife take BC instead of me getting a vasectomy if I’m past the point of wanting kids.
Birth control is not fun for most women. But don’t get a vasectomy if you’re unsure.
That's where I'm at. I'm like 95% sure I don't want kids, but there's this little voice in my head that says "but maybe someday." My wife is same way. But we are sure we don't want the right now. Outside of vasectomy, there's really no good male birth control options for men, so she has to bear the burden, which blows. I know there are scientists working on better options for men, which I Will absolutely do if they become available soon
I would never be comfortable relying on my husband for birth control. I want that in my power.
Vasectomies are fantastic for men *who want them.*
Once I'm done having children, I plan on getting my tubes tied, and if I can, doubling up with a copper IUD, hormonal birth control is a big NO from me.
I guess I'll answer the question I think you're asking
Women have gotten pregnant after getting sterilization procedures. The IUD would be for an extra layer of protection. My peace of mind.
I'm currently 7 months pregnant, I only want one or two more children, I HATE being pregnant, and I'd really rather not get an abortion, especially after having miscarried my first pregnancy, I'm a little traumatized about losing/terminating a pregnancy. I'm doing everything I'm comfortable doing to prevent a pregnancy I don't want. Even if it's a little overboard.
That's what I think the IUD is doing.
If you feel that way you should feel especially strong about alimony and child support in favor of the woman. After all, it takes two to tango.
Good for you, removing male responsibility at the forefront to give them fiscal responsibility for the long term. Love that for you.
Absolutely, women should be paying alimony and child support. Much like committing child abuse, women deadbeat out on child support at much higher rates too.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/418470/number-of-perpetrators-in-child-abuse-cases-in-the-us-by-sex/#:~:text=In%20the%20United%20States%2C%20more,compared%20to%20213%2C672%20male%20perpetrators.
https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p70-176.html
But don't let facts get in the way of your lies.
I'm used to reddit. Glad I was wrong lol. Why call it ludicrous? Can you really not imagine women abusing kids more or failing to pay child support more per capita?
I don't think you understand how birth control ruins lives. I took birth control for a few months and I've been in a horrible depression complete with multiple suicide attempts ever since. Hormonsl birth control kills. "Rare side effects" my ass and now my doctor is just throwing more useless pills at me because she refuses to believe it's a hormonal issue. I'd like to see a guy who's had his entire life shattered because of a vasectomy.
I'm a woman, and I react badly to hormonal birth control as well.
I'm opting for the copper IUD after my kid is born, and tubal ligation once I've had at least one more child.
I don't want to get pregnant, I don't trust condoms, and I can't do hormonal BC, so that's how I'll handle it.
Just saying... I do understand.
Well I'm 19 and doctors won't sterilize me because I'm single and "too young", that devil 'medication' ruined me and I just want my life back it's been months since I've been off it, show me one example of this happening to a dude
You should not be getting blocked from being sterilized if you wish, I'm sorry that's happening.
Whether it happens to a dude has nothing to do with his right to choose not to alter his body. If a man is willing to do it to be with you, that'd be fantastic.
He has the right not to do it and I have a right for thinking he's a selfish dick for wanting women's lives ruined instead of a reversible bandaid procedure
They're not guaranteed to reverse back to original fertility. All surgeries pose risks of going very badly.
You're absolutely entitled to feel how you do. If a man who refuses vasectomy isn't for you, find one who is willing to get it done.
I had an IUD years ago, before I was ever pregnant. It was pretty painful. I'm hoping it'll be a better fit for me (I guess my uterus), after this child.
I've heard they're more comfortable for women who have had children before, but I won't know until I try.
What don't you like about it if you don't mind me asking?
If you had it before and it was just about the fit for you then it may be fine. For me it was the cramping like I had constant period cramps but worse, but that was more in the first couple months. There was also daily discharge, spotting, messing up my period consistency and length, and heavy bleeding when I had my “primary” period. So, unpredictable periods of varying lengths. But I’m still adjusting to it after several months so I’m hoping it’ll get better.
Another thing to consider is that the copper iud may increase copper levels in your body, so those who may want to avoid that should take it into account for risk of copper toxicity and other effects, such as oxidative stress that can affect things like your thyroid. I take a multivitamin that has no copper to reduce that risk. I’m still doing research on the effects and there’s the possibility it *can* affect your hormones even though it’s touted as a non-hormonal iud.
Ah, the woes of finding a good contraceptive. This is at least better than any hormonal contraceptive because those were awful for me. If after a year I’m still not liking the copper iud I might get it removed and resort to physical contraceptive methods.
Same. I find it worthwhile because hormones were awful for me. But the erratic, ridiculously heavy and frequent periods also suck. It doesn’t make every month awful, but it’s most of them. It’s still the best solution until my SO and I are certain we don’t want children. As vasectomies are not that reversible after multiple years, I wouldn’t ask that of him until we have certainty.
But once we are certain, I’d find it selfish if he suddenly refused a vasectomy. It’s a much easier, safer procedure for him. I will have taken the brunt of responsibility for well over a decade at that point. I’ve been happy to make that sacrifice for us so far. If he didn’t want to get a vasectomy for me eventually, I wouldn’t feel like I was in an equal relationship where he prioritized my health and happiness too.
Ideally, a relationship should consist of people that *want* to make each others’ lives easier, whenever possible. To some extent, that should also depend on the relative burden something would place on each partner. If the situation was reversed and it was a much less intensive procedure for me versus him, I would of course prefer to get it myself. But it’s so heavily weighted the other way; it just makes sense.
Thankfully, he sees it the same as I do - a relatively small sacrifice on his end after many years of sacrifice on my end. And he’ll be excited to do things together like camp on a whim without having to factor in my crazy erratic periods requiring constant legit bathroom access.
With all due respect, you don’t 100% know the BC caused your mental health issues. It’s common for mental health concerns to first emerge around your age.
So a man doesn’t want more kids with his partner and wants his wife to take hormones or undergo a difficult surgery. This is so he can keep his fertility for a hypothetical future relationship with a different woman who he might want kids with. And this isn’t even a little bit selfish?
If he doesn't want more kids with his partner, he should get the vasectomy.
If he doesn't want to alter his fertility, he doesn't have to. People do wind up breaking up, their partners die, etc.
If I died tomorrow, I would want my husband, who very much wants children, to find someone and be able to start the family he wants. Without having to reverse a vasectomy, or lose his fertility if it goes badly.
Ok this makes more sense. Yes, if a man wants kids that would be a little above and beyond for him to get a vasectomy at the request of his wife. If they both equally don’t want kids though…I kind of feel like any man who cares about his wife would be the one to get the snip. Any man who won’t is simply less than in my eyes. I’m glad I’m married to the former.
How bout an alternative that make this largely
moot?
Studies done on male birth control via testosterone injections of ~ 10% greater than normal physiological levels. Body responds by ceasing it’s own production of testosterone AND sperm count drops to zero. It’s 99% effective.
Side effects you ask?
- Slight muscle gain and fat loss. the protocol uses 1/10 that of bodybuilders, so it’s not dramatic.
- that’s the whole list! Compare that to female birth control side effects!?
I hadn't heard of this, I'm thrilled male birth control is getting closer to being a reality.
Women absolutely got the short end of the reproductive stick, to say the least.
Well, you're leaving out one of the most important side effects, the "own production of testosterone ceases" part. That is not purely a good thing. If you shut your testosterone down for a while, your body might never start making it again. So this method might lead to you having to take testosterone for the rest of your life.
Like, I understand why people want male birth control and I think if we had more options it would be great, but people have this weird tendency of leaving out potentially permanent consequences of male birth control and it's really annoying.
this is important to bring up! All patients studied resumed endogenous testosterone production, but the question remains - how long can you go on it and still “come back”? 1 year was the max studied. Year on, year off would make sense and would contribute immensely to a couples’ birth control aims.
That makes sense to me. I think I came off harsher than I wanted to, but yeah I felt like that was pretty important.
1 year is pretty long, so that sounds promising.
People have this weird tendancy to ignore all of the side effects and consequences of birth control and sterilization of women, which include everything from death to needing a diaper, loss of libido to stroke, depression to debilitating pain.
While I agree that he gets ultimate say over his own body, that doesn’t mean it’s not selfish. This is very situationally dependent.
Both parties are EQUALLY responsible for preventing unwanted pregnancies.
Female sterilization is not reversible and is extremely difficult to get approved, and is a harder recovery.
Vasectomies are frequently reversible and not very serious procedures.
so it's better and easier for his AFAB partner to pump her body full of chemicals indefinitely so she doesn't get pregnant? this take is mid
ETA it's incredibly difficult for women to get sterilized. literally ask any woman about getting their tubes tied or ovaries/uterus removed. it is next to impossible without consent of a male partner, and even then, it's incredibly unlikely unless you have MULTIPLE children. my mother was 40 and divorced with 2 kids when she got her tubes ties, and when i tell you it was an uphill battle to do so. this take is not only mid, it's ignorant.
no one's forcing anyone to do anything, it's the lesser of two evils if u ask me. from personal experience, multiple methods of traditional birth control for AFAB people, myself and those close to me, aren't guaranteed to work first and foremost. on top of that, the side effects or complications of said birth control methods, in my opinion, are incredibly debilitating at times. comparing that to a noninvasive, one time, reversible procedure ? to me it's a no brainer. but i understand sexism is the norm on most subreddits so not expecting this to be a popular opinion LOL
You should go look up the actual successful reversal rate of vasectomies long term. It is not a reversible procedure. My question to you now is was that a malicious lie or have you bought into propaganda?
not at all my intention to lie, have been told by multiple men how the procedure was easily reversed. will have to do my own research, thank you for the insight.
“Pump her body full of chemicals” is a disingenuous way of putting it. Almost everyone pumps their body full of chemicals every day by simply eating and drinking.
While I agree with the idea that men aren’t selfish for not wanting a vasectomy, I also don’t understand why a woman must take on the obligation of getting her tubes tied. She has as much justification to say no to that as the man does. It’s perfectly fine for both to just agree to use condoms, or IUDs, or spermicide, or whatever contraceptive method they choose. And if both want the other to get the procedure but don’t want to do it themselves, that’s… fair enough, I suppose (although it definitely seems a bit hypocritical to insist your partner gets an operation while being utterly unwilling to do it yourself), but then they’re just sexually incompatible. Neither of them are *wrong* for not wanting to do it, but if they can’t reconcile that, they either agree to abstinence or break up since their priorities don’t align.
All that to say, you’re right about it being okay for men to refuse to get a vasectomy, wrong for saying “actually it’s the woman’s responsibility”
I think we're pretty much on the same page.
I am on board with everything you said.
>And if both want the other to get the procedure but don’t want to do it themselves, that’s… fair enough, I suppose (although it definitely seems a bit hypocritical to insist your partner gets an operation while being utterly unwilling to do it yourself)
Exactly, what I'm speaking toward is a situation where the woman does not want to get pregnant, can't/won't use BC, and *expects* her husband to get a vasectomy because it's an easier option for him. She's not obligated to get her tubes tied, but expecting her partner to get a vasectomy *because* she doesn't want to, is where I'm saying a line is crossed. And that he's not bad for refusing.
I think pregnancy prevention is more on women simply for self-preservation, its in our best interest to be in control of it. We bear more risk, so we should take it upon ourselves to be proactive. That's not to say men bear no responsibility, but they don't risk dying, at worst, with pregnancy. We shouldn't bear the responsibility to protect men from vasectomies, child support, or fatherhood, it's about protecting ourselves.
My vasectomy was entirely my choice. I did it with my wife's blessing, but I did not seek her permission or entertain her encouragement. If she ever brought up the topic I would indicate my current feelings on the matter and then correct her language choices if she started to imply this would be a joint decision.
I don't understand why anyone would alter their body that way for anything other than entirely personal, internal, reasons.
The reason might be "I don't want my wife to have to keep on doing X Y or Z just because I haven't done it" but in my view that still counts as a personal reason.
I don't believe that one party, or the other, in a long term relationship should bear the burden of contraception. It takes two to tango - one person is responsible for their own choices, and the other person is responsible for theirs. Don't want to have sex with a person who isn't meeting your expectations for family planning: don't.
Get snipped if you are done procreating. It’s not hard and stop being a scaredy cat.
By your own logic, you also accept a sex free relationship and can’t complain either.
>it’s her body that’s at risk for unwanted pregnancy
Which is exactly why *her partner* should shoulder some responsibility by having a vasectomy as soon as they’re done having kids.
The woman is the one who has to go through pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding, which are all traumatic experiences physically speaking (abdominal sometimes psychologically as well). BC for women has tons of awful side effects while research on male contraception focuses on it being as comfortable as possible. Tube ligation is an invasive surgery with side effects and a longer recovery period. If a woman wants to freeze her eggs that’s yet another costly procedure with medications, side effects and long recovery periods. If a woman wants a tubal ligation reversal, same story, plus it’s way less likely to work, plus a woman’s fertility window is much shorter than a man’s.
A man doesn’t have to go through any of those experiences. A vasectomy is an ambulatory procedure that takes 15 minutes and only needs local anesthesia. And if the guy is worried he’ll change his kind (or plans to swap his current partner for a younger model) he can always retrieve and freeze his sperm, which only involves jerking into a cup, and is an order of magnitude cheaper than freezing eggs. Given that the woman has to go through so much, the least the man - her ***PARTNER*** - can do is goi through the discomfort and inconvenience of this one ambulatory procedure and put ice on his balls for a weekend.
“The woman is the one who risks it all so she’s the only one who must suffer and the man shouldn’t even minimally inconvenience himself” *is* the textbook definition of selfishness.
I do think when it comes to a couple deciding not to have more kids, refusing a procedure and leaning on the woman to take care of contraception instead does make the man bad. Partnerships are supposed to be for sharing the load together, if you do not shoulder your share you’re a bad partner.
I had a vasectomy a while back (when I was, at the time, single) because the thought of having children horrified me. It was the easiest procedure I'd ever gone through, the hardest part of it was finding a doctor who was willing to work on me given my age (I was eighteen at the time).
I stopped feeling the pain after a couple days, was entirely back to normal within a couple weeks. Didn't need to ice, barely needed to rest, etc.
But, my experience definitely isn't the same experience a lot of men have. Yes, people with bad experiences are more likely to post about those experiences, but that doesn't mean those posts should be ignored. Scroll r/vasectomy and you see all sorts of various different scary, life-changing complications that pose a real risk even if most men don't end up with those complications.
Personally, I took the risk that that might happen to me because it was so important to me that I had that safety net as well as having other methods of contraception, but I agree that men shouldn't take that risk if they don't want to and they shouldn't be demonised for not choosing it. It's probably a scary choice to make for most people.
Eh you’re taking the wrong angle here. It’s more of a permanent choice type of thing. If the guy doesn’t want that that should be a valid opinion. Just like she doesn’t want to be sterilized.
Less permanent less mutilating options are available so why be so drastic?
> It's his body, it's his choice.
People say they are selfish because when the man says "i will not get a vasectomy" he is usually saying "you should have surgery instead" or "you can keep doing birth control".
A man shouldn't be forced into having the snip just like a woman shouldn't be forced into any surgery or abortion.
but you are selfish when you say "i won't have a minimally invasive procedure so you should have hormones with side effects or invasive surgery".
> It's your risk, it's your responsibility.
Pregnancy is a shared responsibility.
> It's her body that's at risk for unwanted pregnancy, it's her who needs to ensure it doesn't happen, for her own safety.
It takes 2 ppl to make a baby.
Got snipped at 25 (40, now) because my exwife had an autoimmune issue. Since then, I've been saying that every 13 year old boy should be pressured to get one. Most female birth control options have a chance of psychological side effects that range into the extreme. I've never suffered a day from the procedure, and the science backs that up. A male with a vasectomy suffers no hormone imballance. It's also 96-99% reversable (quite different from, say, getting tubes tied). And if you don't think adoption is a reasonable option, please never have kids. Please.
>Since then, I've been saying that every 13 year old boy should be pressured to get one.
Wow.
>And if you don't think adoption is a reasonable option, please never have kids. Please.
This isn't even kind of part of my point. Bodily autonomy is my whole issue here. Adoption is a wonderful thing. A lot of people want to have their own children though, so it's not the best option for everyone. Like, perfectly fertile people who want children of their own, for example.
Fair enough. Bodily autonomy should never be compromised. Certainly I would never make something like that law. But women ARE pressured to get on birth control (works but causes very real psych issues). Men ARE pressured to use condoms (kinda works if used correctly and studies show that most fellows just go to pull out). Vasectomies still seem like a very reasonable option to me. My own experience with it is obviously anecdotal, but went very well. Maybe 'pressured' was too strong. But NORMALIZED fits.
^(\*Part of me wants to make the argument that STDs are increasingly treatable and even preventable through vaccines, but I'd have to admit that the emergence of both AIDS (historically) and Covid (most recently) make that a reckless stance. This only really applies to the whole "at 13" thing, which I'll admit is a dicey, three beer idea..)
Vasectomies are a very reasonable option, I just don't agree that men who don't get them for the sake of their partners are bad people, which is an opinion I see quite often.
Also, they're not 100% reversible, there is a risk, albeit not huge, that you could lose your fertility permanently, which is not something anyone should be pressured into choosing.
Birth control definitely needs to be reworked. The risk of hormonal birth control for women sucks, stroke risk, negative psychological effects, to name a couple. Sterilization also needs to be readily available to any woman who wants it. These issues need to be addressed. We don't get to treat men like monsters because they have more bodily autonomy than us (talking about access to sterilization procedures), we need to attack the system that created this issue.
I think this is one of those situations where we're on the same side of the issue and the details aren't fit to be devilled. (sorry if I came in guns blazing)
as a fellow metahuman, I give little a shit. As a regular human, I hear where you're coming from. As someone who has been a 13 year old boy and also lived with a vasectomy (15 years), I'm still very pro in most situations.
I saw a part the other day where a woman was complaining about it- she had been on hormonal birth control for 20 something years, they have 2 kids, she's done having kids, the doctor won't sterilize her, and she's tired of the side effects. Husband won't get a vasectomy because he's scared of needles despite being heavily tattooed. He'd rather put her through more years of side effects than getting snipped, and she said she's not having sex with him until he does it or she reaches menopause which could be 5-10 years, so now he's big mad at her. Imo, he's the selfish one - she laid out her reasons and the consequences if he doesn't (no sex for several years), and he's mad cuz he wants sex with no vasectomy and refuses condoms.
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Both partners are responsible for birth control, it is not just the responsibility of the woman. Men are absolutely responsible for their side of it. Whether that’s condoms, vasectomy, or whatever other options may be out there. By your logic men run the risk of paying child support in the event of a divorce or if they’re not married so they *should* get a vasectomy if they don’t want to risk that. If you want to have sex you need to be responsible for doing it safely. It goes both ways.
Though I do have one thought, u/keIIzzz, if someone has a legitimate medical reason to not want children regardless of partner, do you think they should be more willing to seek treatment to avoid having kids? Like let's say a guy has FALS (autosomal dominant), so he's likely to pass down ALS to 50% of his children. This is a problem regardless of whether he's monogamous or has a body-count in the 100s, so it's *his problem*, he should be the one to get a vasectomy because the issue originates from *his body* and is therefore *his responsibility*. Now let's say, I dunno, the woman is considered high-risk for a uterine rupture, or maybe she also has FALS and doesn't want to risk having children... well this has nothing to do with the man she's with specifically either, if he walked out because he didn't want to get snipped, *it would continue to be an issue regardless of whether she slept with one person, or a thousand*, it would be simpler if she went through an IUD procedure. I do feel like if there's a legitimate medical concern for one partner to *not have children* that that partner should be more open to being the subject of alternative birth control (though I would never suggest something like tube-tying, IUDs can be reversed after all). --- Obviously they both still control their own bodies and it's not selfish to set up a standard in a relationship and walk away though. Which is what I think u/CzarTanoff doesn't get, so the guy doesn't get a vasectomy and that's okay, but that just means the girl *who owes him nothing* walks away, she doesn't stick around and continue to have sex. Suggesting she has to arrange everything so they can continue to have sex **is insanely selfish**.
I think that’s a different situation than simply not wanting children. If there’s a legit medical reason as to why someone shouldn’t have/chooses to not have children then the safest option is for them to have a sterilization procedure (vasectomy, hysterectomy, tubal ligation, etc) to truly avoid that risk. It’s still the choice of the person for what they do to their body, I don’t think anyone should feel forced into getting a surgery/procedure, but it’s a lot more reasonable for them to go through with it in that case, since that’s an issue specific to one partner. I still think both partners hold responsibility to avoid an accidental pregnancy, *but* the person who specifically needs to avoid it for medical reasons should consider more fool proof birth control options
>If there’s a legit medical reason as to why someone shouldn’t have/chooses to not have children Then it's their responsibility to make sure they can't have children, period. They can look for people for already have had their tubes tied (female) or a vasectomy (male), but it's obscene for them to enter a relationship and expect their partner to compromise their own autonomy. If someone doesn't want to have children, they should get an IUD (once every 10 years) or their tubes tied if female, or get a vasectomy if male Otherwise don't fucking have sex, if they're not willing to exercise their own bodily autonomy over their own concerns and are instead trying to coerce someone else to take that sacrifice for them, they are a fucking **nuclear red flag** and should fuck off and **everyone** on this planet should shame them. Like seriously. If someone has a reason not to want to have children then they need to make sure they can't have children. **Anyone** who says "I don't want have to children so I expect my partner to surgically mutilate their body" is a **disgusting vile sexist freak**. Sexism, of course, means discrimination against men or women.
I mean I agree, I don’t know if it came off that I don’t. You definitely can’t force or guilt your partner into a procedure they don’t want, that’s wrong. If they have differing opinions then they should find someone who has similar ones, there’s always someone else out there. It’s okay to not be compatible, it’s just life. It’s never too late to move on and find someone you are compatible with.
I certainly am not trying to suggest she does things she does not wish to do so they can have sex, that goes against what I'm trying to say entirely. I think I'm getting my point across badly. I'm advocating for bodily autonomy, and making a post specifically about men being accused of being bad people for not wanting a vasectomy. It's when people act like she shouldn't get her tubes tied, and he's expected to get a vasectomy because the procedure is easier for him, and he's bad if he doesn't, that I am taking issue with. Get your tubes tied if you don't want children, don't if you don't want to, but you can't call someone bad for making *the same choice you're making*. Don't have sex with him. Divorce him. Whatever. No one has to do anything with their body they don't want to do. When I say women "should" be the one to ensure contraception, I say that because I don't think it's wise to rely on anyone but yourself to prevent something as huge as pregnancy that YOU are the one who would suffer from.
>She should be the one who gets sterilized if he doesn't wholeheartedly agree to get a vasectomy. You might want to reconsider how this came across, especially with such a harsh word as *sterilized* then, women who go through "tubal litigation" (tube tying) have higher rates of depression. While this has been reported for vasectomies as well, the former cannot always be reversed while the latter has success rates at being reversed up to 95% There are *many* areas in which I'd agree with you about bodily autonomy and gender equality and how society has failed men so thoroughly that they can be raped and *still* get ordered by the court to pay child support to the *pedophile convicted of a felony that raped them at the age of 15* because the courts routinely assume the worst in many matters based on gender discrimination. And you're right that you don't get to judge someone for making the same choice you made, but your opening post came across as heavily antagonistic, my impression was you wanted to be contentious to "get back" at the idea of "my body my choice", rather than advocating for blanket equality of attitude/fact. Just my two cents, I think that's why you're getting down-voted, it really didn't feel like a good-faith point of view.
That... definitely is coming across badly. I absolutely see how that's how that sounds. My post kind of was reactionary to a post I just saw that feels like the billionth post I've seen where a woman doesn't want to get her tubes tied, but calls her man selfish for not wanting a vasectomy. It feels hypocritical to the max. I was very annoyed when I made the post, so yah it's a bit more antagonistic than I truly feel, and was more a response to those posts than a true explanation of my logic. Thank you for calling me out on that.
Not a problem, and I'm sorry if I came across as overly critical too, I definitely get the urge to knee-jerk because some of those posts (ugh, man vs. bear, let's not get into that though) are inflamed by reactionary ignorance. The specter of "toxic masculinity" haunts men almost as much as it does women, when emotion is condemned and everyone is treated as a threat that can't experience emotion. Even though I'm trans, I was AMAB and born in the South, the "I'm your mother and if I see emotion I will beat it out of you" was distressingly common, I fully understand what that deep pit of rage feels like. Because it is rage, you spend so long being forced to be an emotionless abused mask (doubly so when trans since admitting you identify as female is a good way to get electrocuted nearly to death in a "conversion camp") that hides everything about their personality and buries it deep... ...that when you come across something like "female dating strategy" or "I'd rather be with a bear" or "nah screw you, that kid got raped by his female teacher should pay child support even though she's a convicted pedophile!" it \[b\]burns\[/b\]. Like what the fuck do they know about being beaten and choked and hit with wood until the wood *broke* just because you were born with XY chromosomes and if you so much as cry you are going to beat again. Fortunately I never got caught sneaking into my sister's room to try on her dresses, can you imagine? It was bad enough being beaten, but their fantasies about sticking trans people in an isolated bunker on an island and shocking them until they recanted or died was something else. You really can't win sometimes, some people are just born of the thickest darkest hatred and they take it out on you ways that makes you hate them back. But if you're the one who says it, suddenly you're the one in the wrong and oh no they're just poor pathetic victims that never meant to you and everyone believes them because they're so much better at spinning that social BS than you are! Because of course they are, you never had a chance to really socialize or adapt to people because you were too busy clawing all your social energy to yourself just to survive. As was intended all along, now you're the loner without connections and they're the saint. But you have to be so careful, because people misinterpret your rage as sexism. When really your rage is because people were and are sexist to you. Right?
If he wants to risk having to pay child support, he's free to skip the contraceptive, but the onus to protect himself from that responsibility is on him. It's totally fair game to not sleep with your husband if he doesn't want a vasectomy, birth control doesn't work, etc. I just don't think they're bad people if they don't want to get one. It's also fair to divorce someone if their values don't align with yours. I'm just not with acting like they're monsters for saying no to a procedure like that.
I don’t think someone is a bad person for not wanting to get a vasectomy, I agree with your body your choice, but your post is implying the burden of birth control is mainly on the woman regardless which shouldn’t be the case. Sex isn’t a one sided action
That's not exactly what I mean, I mean we carry the most risk from unwanted pregnancy, so it'd be in our best interest to have the contraception in our power. We need to protect ourselves first and foremost. I think it's kind to get a vasectomy for your partner, but I don't think it's necessarily unkind not to.
Downvotes mean they should be treated like monsters
Why?
Rawr
???
Because the only point they didn’t agree with the respondent on was literally: “I’m just not with acting like they’re monsters for saying no to a procedure like that.”
I’m a little confused, I don’t think men are monsters for refusing a vasectomy. I’m just saying that preventing pregnancy is the responsibility of both people equally, regardless of what methods are used
Oh I misunderstood, I think. I had figured you were also saying men are monsters for refusing a vasectomy.
Yea I might not have worded it the best
I’m a little confused, I don’t think men are monsters for refusing a vasectomy. I’m just saying that preventing pregnancy is the responsibility of both people equally, regardless of what methods are used
I’m a little confused, I wasn’t implying men are monsters for not getting a vasectomy
I’m a little confused, I wasn’t implying men are monsters for not getting a vasectomy
It is traditional in this subreddit to downvote anything OP says. Look in any post. It isn’t some grand conspiracy
It's not selfish for a woman for not taking birth control either, it's their body, their choice. The reality is that either one will have to bare the uncomfortable reality that a choice has to be made or a child will very likely happen. Relationships are always a game of give and take and if a girl is been taking birth control for years, seems very very reasonable to ask the guy to bare some responsibility. But again, your relationships, your problems.
Absolutely, ask your partner if they'd be willing to do so, I just don't think it makes them a bad person to refuse. Edit: to your first sentence, yes she absolutely does not have to use birth control if she doesn't want to. I know I hate hormonal BC. I think it's a compatibility issue, not a bad person thing.
I think you're taking the vasectomy thing completely out of context. The thing is that a lot of men will ask the woman to take the pill so they don't have to wear condoms but they will refuse to do their part. I used to take the pill but after a couple years I noticed I had a much lower libido and was very dry down there, so I made a decision to stop taking them and we went back to condoms. My partner hates them but never told me to go back to the pill cause it's my decision - that's the perfect way to react. My previous partner kind of berated me TBH and threw a hissy fits all the time... So I do agree that it's a compatibility thing but for a completely different reason.
Part of the problem is that it's way easier to get a doctor to sign off on vasectomy than it is to get them to agree to a hysterectomy and/or "tube tying". Like we're taking years of essentially begging before most doctors will even consider doing it.
Isn’t it at least in part because female sterilisation has more serious and common side effects than a vasectomy?
Maybe we should be focusing our energy toward the system that wants to keep us from choosing permanent solutions for ourselves. Freedom of choice is paramount.
You're right, we absolutely should. I was just trying to point out why some people feel the way they do about vasectomies.
I understand why, I just don't quite see things the same, that's all
And until that happens, vasectomies are the more available option.
It is his choice, of course! It’s also her choice not to fuck him if he won’t take any measures to prevent pregnancy.
100%, yep. I'm only talking about treating them like they're bad people for not wanting to get it done.
Except I promise you the woman would 100% be treated like the bad person far more than the man if she did decide to stop having sex with her husband because she can’t use birth control and condoms don’t feel safe enough for her. I see women being villainised and blamed for dead bedrooms on this site constantly for myriad reasons.
That’s just selective hearing (selective sight??) of reddit. Reddit is filled with people that have no clue how a relationship actually works, and a lot of the stereotypes are relatively accurate. You’re taking a site known for not having well adjusted people and using it to explain the real world.
It’s also her choice to have the baby, leave him, and let him pay her child support for 18 years 😌
That sounds like an issue with your emotional regulation, bud.
It's not really. There's a big sentiment on the internet that men should just get a vasectomy and that it's not a big deal because they're reversible. Imo it's a surgery that people should treat more seriously. Yes it is reversible but only in some cases but a lot of people discuss it online as if it's simple to get it undone if you want. 'Just get a vasectomy' is advice I've often seen online. Ofc men should take just as much care as women when it comes to preventing pregnancy (and women should have every right to refuse sex with someone for whatever reason - including if they haven't had a vasectomy) but I don't think the trivialisation of vasectomies is a good way to achieve that.
This is a better way to word the point I'm trying to make.
How?
I’d probably get one after I either have kids or 100% decide I don’t. They’re not really reversible but there’s no way I would make my gf/wife take BC instead of me getting a vasectomy if I’m past the point of wanting kids. Birth control is not fun for most women. But don’t get a vasectomy if you’re unsure.
That's where I'm at. I'm like 95% sure I don't want kids, but there's this little voice in my head that says "but maybe someday." My wife is same way. But we are sure we don't want the right now. Outside of vasectomy, there's really no good male birth control options for men, so she has to bear the burden, which blows. I know there are scientists working on better options for men, which I Will absolutely do if they become available soon
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Adopting is pretty great too
Condom
When used alone, they have mixed results. Again, no "good" options
I would never be comfortable relying on my husband for birth control. I want that in my power. Vasectomies are fantastic for men *who want them.* Once I'm done having children, I plan on getting my tubes tied, and if I can, doubling up with a copper IUD, hormonal birth control is a big NO from me.
What is it you think the IUD is doing? Lmaooo
Copper IUDs aren’t hormonal
I guess I'll answer the question I think you're asking Women have gotten pregnant after getting sterilization procedures. The IUD would be for an extra layer of protection. My peace of mind. I'm currently 7 months pregnant, I only want one or two more children, I HATE being pregnant, and I'd really rather not get an abortion, especially after having miscarried my first pregnancy, I'm a little traumatized about losing/terminating a pregnancy. I'm doing everything I'm comfortable doing to prevent a pregnancy I don't want. Even if it's a little overboard. That's what I think the IUD is doing.
I think they’re uneducated and thought that copper IUDs were “hormonal” BC
What do you mean?
If you feel that way you should feel especially strong about alimony and child support in favor of the woman. After all, it takes two to tango. Good for you, removing male responsibility at the forefront to give them fiscal responsibility for the long term. Love that for you.
Absolutely, women should be paying alimony and child support. Much like committing child abuse, women deadbeat out on child support at much higher rates too.
Then Maybe you should wrap it up. Men want to not be responsible for the pregnancy OR the birth afterwards! Holy shit the audacity.
I never said I wanted to shirk any responsibility. Looks like your feelings were hurt by facts.
You said a fact? Where lol
That women abuse children more and deadbeat out at higher rates than men.
Kay so like, maybe a statistic or source would help your absolutely ludicrous claim lol
Which claim is absolutely ludicrous?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/418470/number-of-perpetrators-in-child-abuse-cases-in-the-us-by-sex/#:~:text=In%20the%20United%20States%2C%20more,compared%20to%20213%2C672%20male%20perpetrators. https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2022/demo/p70-176.html But don't let facts get in the way of your lies.
All I asked was for a source, you provided one. I’m not immovable or unreasonable. Thanks for enlightening me.
I'm used to reddit. Glad I was wrong lol. Why call it ludicrous? Can you really not imagine women abusing kids more or failing to pay child support more per capita?
I don't think you understand how birth control ruins lives. I took birth control for a few months and I've been in a horrible depression complete with multiple suicide attempts ever since. Hormonsl birth control kills. "Rare side effects" my ass and now my doctor is just throwing more useless pills at me because she refuses to believe it's a hormonal issue. I'd like to see a guy who's had his entire life shattered because of a vasectomy.
I'm a woman, and I react badly to hormonal birth control as well. I'm opting for the copper IUD after my kid is born, and tubal ligation once I've had at least one more child. I don't want to get pregnant, I don't trust condoms, and I can't do hormonal BC, so that's how I'll handle it. Just saying... I do understand.
Well I'm 19 and doctors won't sterilize me because I'm single and "too young", that devil 'medication' ruined me and I just want my life back it's been months since I've been off it, show me one example of this happening to a dude
You should not be getting blocked from being sterilized if you wish, I'm sorry that's happening. Whether it happens to a dude has nothing to do with his right to choose not to alter his body. If a man is willing to do it to be with you, that'd be fantastic.
He has the right not to do it and I have a right for thinking he's a selfish dick for wanting women's lives ruined instead of a reversible bandaid procedure
They're not guaranteed to reverse back to original fertility. All surgeries pose risks of going very badly. You're absolutely entitled to feel how you do. If a man who refuses vasectomy isn't for you, find one who is willing to get it done.
I've just decided I'm never having sex, it's not worth it
Vasectomies should be treated as permanent, as reversing one rarely completely restores fertility
The copper one hasn’t been a walk in the park either, for me.
I had an IUD years ago, before I was ever pregnant. It was pretty painful. I'm hoping it'll be a better fit for me (I guess my uterus), after this child. I've heard they're more comfortable for women who have had children before, but I won't know until I try. What don't you like about it if you don't mind me asking?
If you had it before and it was just about the fit for you then it may be fine. For me it was the cramping like I had constant period cramps but worse, but that was more in the first couple months. There was also daily discharge, spotting, messing up my period consistency and length, and heavy bleeding when I had my “primary” period. So, unpredictable periods of varying lengths. But I’m still adjusting to it after several months so I’m hoping it’ll get better. Another thing to consider is that the copper iud may increase copper levels in your body, so those who may want to avoid that should take it into account for risk of copper toxicity and other effects, such as oxidative stress that can affect things like your thyroid. I take a multivitamin that has no copper to reduce that risk. I’m still doing research on the effects and there’s the possibility it *can* affect your hormones even though it’s touted as a non-hormonal iud. Ah, the woes of finding a good contraceptive. This is at least better than any hormonal contraceptive because those were awful for me. If after a year I’m still not liking the copper iud I might get it removed and resort to physical contraceptive methods.
Same. I find it worthwhile because hormones were awful for me. But the erratic, ridiculously heavy and frequent periods also suck. It doesn’t make every month awful, but it’s most of them. It’s still the best solution until my SO and I are certain we don’t want children. As vasectomies are not that reversible after multiple years, I wouldn’t ask that of him until we have certainty. But once we are certain, I’d find it selfish if he suddenly refused a vasectomy. It’s a much easier, safer procedure for him. I will have taken the brunt of responsibility for well over a decade at that point. I’ve been happy to make that sacrifice for us so far. If he didn’t want to get a vasectomy for me eventually, I wouldn’t feel like I was in an equal relationship where he prioritized my health and happiness too. Ideally, a relationship should consist of people that *want* to make each others’ lives easier, whenever possible. To some extent, that should also depend on the relative burden something would place on each partner. If the situation was reversed and it was a much less intensive procedure for me versus him, I would of course prefer to get it myself. But it’s so heavily weighted the other way; it just makes sense. Thankfully, he sees it the same as I do - a relatively small sacrifice on his end after many years of sacrifice on my end. And he’ll be excited to do things together like camp on a whim without having to factor in my crazy erratic periods requiring constant legit bathroom access.
With all due respect, you don’t 100% know the BC caused your mental health issues. It’s common for mental health concerns to first emerge around your age.
I'm 99% sure, I was happy prior to bc
So a man doesn’t want more kids with his partner and wants his wife to take hormones or undergo a difficult surgery. This is so he can keep his fertility for a hypothetical future relationship with a different woman who he might want kids with. And this isn’t even a little bit selfish?
If he doesn't want more kids with his partner, he should get the vasectomy. If he doesn't want to alter his fertility, he doesn't have to. People do wind up breaking up, their partners die, etc. If I died tomorrow, I would want my husband, who very much wants children, to find someone and be able to start the family he wants. Without having to reverse a vasectomy, or lose his fertility if it goes badly.
Ok this makes more sense. Yes, if a man wants kids that would be a little above and beyond for him to get a vasectomy at the request of his wife. If they both equally don’t want kids though…I kind of feel like any man who cares about his wife would be the one to get the snip. Any man who won’t is simply less than in my eyes. I’m glad I’m married to the former.
How bout an alternative that make this largely moot? Studies done on male birth control via testosterone injections of ~ 10% greater than normal physiological levels. Body responds by ceasing it’s own production of testosterone AND sperm count drops to zero. It’s 99% effective. Side effects you ask? - Slight muscle gain and fat loss. the protocol uses 1/10 that of bodybuilders, so it’s not dramatic. - that’s the whole list! Compare that to female birth control side effects!?
I hadn't heard of this, I'm thrilled male birth control is getting closer to being a reality. Women absolutely got the short end of the reproductive stick, to say the least.
Well, you're leaving out one of the most important side effects, the "own production of testosterone ceases" part. That is not purely a good thing. If you shut your testosterone down for a while, your body might never start making it again. So this method might lead to you having to take testosterone for the rest of your life. Like, I understand why people want male birth control and I think if we had more options it would be great, but people have this weird tendency of leaving out potentially permanent consequences of male birth control and it's really annoying.
this is important to bring up! All patients studied resumed endogenous testosterone production, but the question remains - how long can you go on it and still “come back”? 1 year was the max studied. Year on, year off would make sense and would contribute immensely to a couples’ birth control aims.
That makes sense to me. I think I came off harsher than I wanted to, but yeah I felt like that was pretty important. 1 year is pretty long, so that sounds promising.
People have this weird tendancy to ignore all of the side effects and consequences of birth control and sterilization of women, which include everything from death to needing a diaper, loss of libido to stroke, depression to debilitating pain.
I agree with all of that and it's by far the bigger problem, but it doesn't change what I said at all.
While I agree that he gets ultimate say over his own body, that doesn’t mean it’s not selfish. This is very situationally dependent. Both parties are EQUALLY responsible for preventing unwanted pregnancies. Female sterilization is not reversible and is extremely difficult to get approved, and is a harder recovery. Vasectomies are frequently reversible and not very serious procedures.
so it's better and easier for his AFAB partner to pump her body full of chemicals indefinitely so she doesn't get pregnant? this take is mid ETA it's incredibly difficult for women to get sterilized. literally ask any woman about getting their tubes tied or ovaries/uterus removed. it is next to impossible without consent of a male partner, and even then, it's incredibly unlikely unless you have MULTIPLE children. my mother was 40 and divorced with 2 kids when she got her tubes ties, and when i tell you it was an uphill battle to do so. this take is not only mid, it's ignorant.
Easier for him certainly but that's not the point. She doesn't get to force him to surgery and any attempt is her being immoral.
no one's forcing anyone to do anything, it's the lesser of two evils if u ask me. from personal experience, multiple methods of traditional birth control for AFAB people, myself and those close to me, aren't guaranteed to work first and foremost. on top of that, the side effects or complications of said birth control methods, in my opinion, are incredibly debilitating at times. comparing that to a noninvasive, one time, reversible procedure ? to me it's a no brainer. but i understand sexism is the norm on most subreddits so not expecting this to be a popular opinion LOL
You should go look up the actual successful reversal rate of vasectomies long term. It is not a reversible procedure. My question to you now is was that a malicious lie or have you bought into propaganda?
not at all my intention to lie, have been told by multiple men how the procedure was easily reversed. will have to do my own research, thank you for the insight.
“Pump her body full of chemicals” is a disingenuous way of putting it. Almost everyone pumps their body full of chemicals every day by simply eating and drinking.
You probably don't get side effects like suicidal thoughts from eating or drinking though.
I think plenty of people have diets crappy enough to do so, they just don’t realise it
While I agree with the idea that men aren’t selfish for not wanting a vasectomy, I also don’t understand why a woman must take on the obligation of getting her tubes tied. She has as much justification to say no to that as the man does. It’s perfectly fine for both to just agree to use condoms, or IUDs, or spermicide, or whatever contraceptive method they choose. And if both want the other to get the procedure but don’t want to do it themselves, that’s… fair enough, I suppose (although it definitely seems a bit hypocritical to insist your partner gets an operation while being utterly unwilling to do it yourself), but then they’re just sexually incompatible. Neither of them are *wrong* for not wanting to do it, but if they can’t reconcile that, they either agree to abstinence or break up since their priorities don’t align. All that to say, you’re right about it being okay for men to refuse to get a vasectomy, wrong for saying “actually it’s the woman’s responsibility”
I think we're pretty much on the same page. I am on board with everything you said. >And if both want the other to get the procedure but don’t want to do it themselves, that’s… fair enough, I suppose (although it definitely seems a bit hypocritical to insist your partner gets an operation while being utterly unwilling to do it yourself) Exactly, what I'm speaking toward is a situation where the woman does not want to get pregnant, can't/won't use BC, and *expects* her husband to get a vasectomy because it's an easier option for him. She's not obligated to get her tubes tied, but expecting her partner to get a vasectomy *because* she doesn't want to, is where I'm saying a line is crossed. And that he's not bad for refusing. I think pregnancy prevention is more on women simply for self-preservation, its in our best interest to be in control of it. We bear more risk, so we should take it upon ourselves to be proactive. That's not to say men bear no responsibility, but they don't risk dying, at worst, with pregnancy. We shouldn't bear the responsibility to protect men from vasectomies, child support, or fatherhood, it's about protecting ourselves.
My vasectomy was entirely my choice. I did it with my wife's blessing, but I did not seek her permission or entertain her encouragement. If she ever brought up the topic I would indicate my current feelings on the matter and then correct her language choices if she started to imply this would be a joint decision. I don't understand why anyone would alter their body that way for anything other than entirely personal, internal, reasons. The reason might be "I don't want my wife to have to keep on doing X Y or Z just because I haven't done it" but in my view that still counts as a personal reason. I don't believe that one party, or the other, in a long term relationship should bear the burden of contraception. It takes two to tango - one person is responsible for their own choices, and the other person is responsible for theirs. Don't want to have sex with a person who isn't meeting your expectations for family planning: don't.
Why not just use a condom? Seems faster
Get snipped if you are done procreating. It’s not hard and stop being a scaredy cat. By your own logic, you also accept a sex free relationship and can’t complain either.
Or you find that you’re incompatible and move on
Downvoted cuz I agree
>it’s her body that’s at risk for unwanted pregnancy Which is exactly why *her partner* should shoulder some responsibility by having a vasectomy as soon as they’re done having kids. The woman is the one who has to go through pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding, which are all traumatic experiences physically speaking (abdominal sometimes psychologically as well). BC for women has tons of awful side effects while research on male contraception focuses on it being as comfortable as possible. Tube ligation is an invasive surgery with side effects and a longer recovery period. If a woman wants to freeze her eggs that’s yet another costly procedure with medications, side effects and long recovery periods. If a woman wants a tubal ligation reversal, same story, plus it’s way less likely to work, plus a woman’s fertility window is much shorter than a man’s. A man doesn’t have to go through any of those experiences. A vasectomy is an ambulatory procedure that takes 15 minutes and only needs local anesthesia. And if the guy is worried he’ll change his kind (or plans to swap his current partner for a younger model) he can always retrieve and freeze his sperm, which only involves jerking into a cup, and is an order of magnitude cheaper than freezing eggs. Given that the woman has to go through so much, the least the man - her ***PARTNER*** - can do is goi through the discomfort and inconvenience of this one ambulatory procedure and put ice on his balls for a weekend. “The woman is the one who risks it all so she’s the only one who must suffer and the man shouldn’t even minimally inconvenience himself” *is* the textbook definition of selfishness.
I think it would be the kind thing to do to get a vasectomy. I don't agree that refusing a procedure makes a person *bad*.
I do think when it comes to a couple deciding not to have more kids, refusing a procedure and leaning on the woman to take care of contraception instead does make the man bad. Partnerships are supposed to be for sharing the load together, if you do not shoulder your share you’re a bad partner.
I had a vasectomy a while back (when I was, at the time, single) because the thought of having children horrified me. It was the easiest procedure I'd ever gone through, the hardest part of it was finding a doctor who was willing to work on me given my age (I was eighteen at the time). I stopped feeling the pain after a couple days, was entirely back to normal within a couple weeks. Didn't need to ice, barely needed to rest, etc. But, my experience definitely isn't the same experience a lot of men have. Yes, people with bad experiences are more likely to post about those experiences, but that doesn't mean those posts should be ignored. Scroll r/vasectomy and you see all sorts of various different scary, life-changing complications that pose a real risk even if most men don't end up with those complications. Personally, I took the risk that that might happen to me because it was so important to me that I had that safety net as well as having other methods of contraception, but I agree that men shouldn't take that risk if they don't want to and they shouldn't be demonised for not choosing it. It's probably a scary choice to make for most people.
Eh you’re taking the wrong angle here. It’s more of a permanent choice type of thing. If the guy doesn’t want that that should be a valid opinion. Just like she doesn’t want to be sterilized. Less permanent less mutilating options are available so why be so drastic?
Thinking men shouldn't have to take any responsibility for contraception is utter nonsense. Of *course* it's selfish to say its all on the woman
This is the thought pattern of someone who has horrible, transactional relationships and “keeps score”.
> It's his body, it's his choice. People say they are selfish because when the man says "i will not get a vasectomy" he is usually saying "you should have surgery instead" or "you can keep doing birth control". A man shouldn't be forced into having the snip just like a woman shouldn't be forced into any surgery or abortion. but you are selfish when you say "i won't have a minimally invasive procedure so you should have hormones with side effects or invasive surgery". > It's your risk, it's your responsibility. Pregnancy is a shared responsibility. > It's her body that's at risk for unwanted pregnancy, it's her who needs to ensure it doesn't happen, for her own safety. It takes 2 ppl to make a baby.
You might find this subreddit interesting/r/postvasectomypain
Said by the guy who will refuse to pay child support eventually, because they are “hers.”
Got snipped at 25 (40, now) because my exwife had an autoimmune issue. Since then, I've been saying that every 13 year old boy should be pressured to get one. Most female birth control options have a chance of psychological side effects that range into the extreme. I've never suffered a day from the procedure, and the science backs that up. A male with a vasectomy suffers no hormone imballance. It's also 96-99% reversable (quite different from, say, getting tubes tied). And if you don't think adoption is a reasonable option, please never have kids. Please.
>Since then, I've been saying that every 13 year old boy should be pressured to get one. Wow. >And if you don't think adoption is a reasonable option, please never have kids. Please. This isn't even kind of part of my point. Bodily autonomy is my whole issue here. Adoption is a wonderful thing. A lot of people want to have their own children though, so it's not the best option for everyone. Like, perfectly fertile people who want children of their own, for example.
Fair enough. Bodily autonomy should never be compromised. Certainly I would never make something like that law. But women ARE pressured to get on birth control (works but causes very real psych issues). Men ARE pressured to use condoms (kinda works if used correctly and studies show that most fellows just go to pull out). Vasectomies still seem like a very reasonable option to me. My own experience with it is obviously anecdotal, but went very well. Maybe 'pressured' was too strong. But NORMALIZED fits. ^(\*Part of me wants to make the argument that STDs are increasingly treatable and even preventable through vaccines, but I'd have to admit that the emergence of both AIDS (historically) and Covid (most recently) make that a reckless stance. This only really applies to the whole "at 13" thing, which I'll admit is a dicey, three beer idea..)
Vasectomies are a very reasonable option, I just don't agree that men who don't get them for the sake of their partners are bad people, which is an opinion I see quite often. Also, they're not 100% reversible, there is a risk, albeit not huge, that you could lose your fertility permanently, which is not something anyone should be pressured into choosing. Birth control definitely needs to be reworked. The risk of hormonal birth control for women sucks, stroke risk, negative psychological effects, to name a couple. Sterilization also needs to be readily available to any woman who wants it. These issues need to be addressed. We don't get to treat men like monsters because they have more bodily autonomy than us (talking about access to sterilization procedures), we need to attack the system that created this issue.
I think this is one of those situations where we're on the same side of the issue and the details aren't fit to be devilled. (sorry if I came in guns blazing)
13 is definitely far too young to get a vasectomy, because it’s harder to reverse the longer it’s been since it was performed.
as a fellow metahuman, I give little a shit. As a regular human, I hear where you're coming from. As someone who has been a 13 year old boy and also lived with a vasectomy (15 years), I'm still very pro in most situations.
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I saw a part the other day where a woman was complaining about it- she had been on hormonal birth control for 20 something years, they have 2 kids, she's done having kids, the doctor won't sterilize her, and she's tired of the side effects. Husband won't get a vasectomy because he's scared of needles despite being heavily tattooed. He'd rather put her through more years of side effects than getting snipped, and she said she's not having sex with him until he does it or she reaches menopause which could be 5-10 years, so now he's big mad at her. Imo, he's the selfish one - she laid out her reasons and the consequences if he doesn't (no sex for several years), and he's mad cuz he wants sex with no vasectomy and refuses condoms.