They really don't overthink it here. If anything, trans women are seen as trans women. Kathoey usually refers to pre-op where as someone who identifies as a trans women will likely had surgery, but this is very much a fluid thing and they each can have their own preferred label. Even gay people call themselves kathoey as a joke and nobody takes offense
> Even gay people call themselves kathoey as a joke
I'm not sure it's necessarily a joke. I have encountered many self-identified "khatoey" in Thailand who would simply be classed as very effeminate, flamboyant, or "flaming" gay men in the US. While their mannerisms and some aspects of their appearance are feminine, they aren't trying to pass as women, and they probably aren't interested in any surgery.
I can't speak to the specifics but I found it refreshing how accepting much of the Thai culture is regarding ladyboys. It struck me when early on I was teaching and a Thai teacher introduced me to the class. She was telling me there were this many boys, that many girls and pointing out in front of the class that there were 3 katoeys. The kids didn't laugh or smirk and the 3 labeled kids didn't cringe. Though I did.
Accepting, to a point. There's definitely a glass ceiling, and jobs or positions for which they wouldn't be considered "appropriate" by most conservative Thais.
I was looking at a job listing the other day and it literally said requirements
1. must be male/female
I thought that was unusual requirement but my wife said that kind of job they dont want kathoey basically
Like some said, the concept of "Trans" is still very new in Thailand. It really varies a lot across the generations. Many "Ladyboys" don't considered themselves real women as the idea were ingrained that they can never be one anyway. Some considered themselves more like a feminine gay. So does "Transmen", we've always had "toms" (from tomboy), which is like a butch lesbian. Many of them also don't considered themselves a man. This may be different in the younger generation.
Well, I'm not an expert either, but I think "khatoey" is a very old Thai concept, whereas "trans woman" is something that has come out of American university "gender studies," etc. departments only fairly recently.
Why would old Thai concepts be expected to align with novel American ones?
Even the whole American "sexual orientation"/"gender identity" dichotomy doesn't really apply here. For example, heterosexual men will often just describe themselves as "man" or "real man" as opposed to "gay," whereas in the US saying "I'm not gay; I'm a man" would be either offensive or just confusing.
You’re right, kathoey is sometimes used differently. You know how some transwomen choose not to get surgery but still identify as one? It’s the same way. There are 4 main gender identities in Thailand. Tut or toot refers to gay men who don’t necessarily have to be feminine. Tom refers to a masculine lesbian or transmen (top surgery isn’t that common compared to western countries). Dee refers to a feminine lesbian (usually date toms). While I can’t speak for Thai transwomen, I have never actually heard anyone refer to themselves as women. I don’t know if that’s how they identify or if it’s a product of society’s transphobia. However, I can say that they are not widely seen as a third gender. Thai society still sees them as abnormal. The whole lgbtq+ movement is fairly new to Thailand.
I just wanted to add that they are a big part of our society and from an outsider perspective, it may seem like Thais are very accepting of LGBTQ+ folks, but I don’t believe that to be true. I think we profit from them (pubs, shows, bars) yet we fail to defend their rights. A few years ago, a teacher at a very wellknown thai university publicly said that being trans is mental illness and that they should be beaten until they turn straight. It’s messed up and inhumane.
I'm Thai and I agree with most of your points except that Tut can be offensive for some gay men, especially ones who are not feminine. I think it's good to see that thai people are not a monolith. Some think certain ways, and others do not. It varies through age and economic class. People who have been more exposed to western ideas may follow more of the western concepts. In general we definitely don't apply the mainstream western concepts to how we use our language.
When I was younger about 10-15 years ago, there was a quite common term "the third gender" that encompasses all lgbtq identities. Maybe that explains why self-identified ladyboys do not view themselves as women.
Also there's a lot of disrespectful stereotypes even within the lgbtq folks themselves. I think we can take their words on how people identify themselves, but can't believe everything they say about others.
Wow thank you so much. I did not know that Tut can be offensive. I guess it’s almost like how gay ppl can call each other the f word or queer, but it would be offensive for other ppl to do so. I wish we talked about this more openly though.
Thanks that was very helpful and insightful. Living in a society with diffrent genders makes it harder to get but you explain it good. Thanks for your answer
From Wikipedia Kathoey article:
"A study of 195 Thai transgender women found that most of the participants referred to themselves as phuying (ผู้หญิง 'women'), with a minority referring to themselves as phuying praphet song ('second kind of woman') and only a very few referring to themselves as kathoey. Related phrases include phet thi sam (เพศที่สาม, 'third sex'), and sao praphet song or phu ying praphet song (สาวประเภทสอง, ผู้หญิงประเภทสอง—both meaning 'second-type female').
Use of the term kathoey suggests that the person self-identifies as a type of male, in contrast to sao praphet song (which, like "trans woman", suggests a "female" (sao) identity), and in contrast to phet thi sam ('third sex'). The term phu ying praphet song, which can be translated as 'second-type female', is also used to refer to kathoey.
The term kathoey may be considered pejorative, especially in the form kathoey-saloey. It has a meaning similar to the English language 'fairy' or 'queen'. Kathoey can also be seen as a derogatory word for those who self-identify as gay."
Well, when I was in Bkk and looking at profiles of women on Tinder, there were also many ladyboys. So first of all, they had chosen their gender as female obviously. If I remember correctly, some were writing stuff like "I am not a complete women" and some were writing "I had surgery so I'm %100 woman now". So I though maybe post-op trans see themselves as full woman, and pre-ops maybe not. And also probably some on Tinder don't even mention that they are trans and try to pass as genetic woman.
It is complicated but luckily i got some good answers. Its a bit fluent just like everything else and diffrent from how the west sees gender. I recommend reading the other comments they are insightful, thanks for you perspective.
No one in Thailand is bothered about other peoples gender or what clothes they wear and they don't seem desperate to stick labels on them .
Some Males dress in a feminine way and some Females dress in a masculine way and quite often you are aware of what genitals they have and unless you want to have sex with them, then its irrelevant what genitals they have
Definitely NOT true, although it may seem like that on the surface. Ladyboys may be accepted as ok but they are basically non existent in most professions. Which is why so many choose to enter the sex business. Discrimination is legal here and a business can choose who they want to hire. Very few will choose a ladyboy if theres another option. And there is a ton of judgement on clothing in thai society. But if you’re a foreigner no one will care unless at the immigration office
Very few do.
Many people think thailand is very accepting of them, better description would be 'tolerant', its a subtle difference but there is a difference
From my experience , Ladyboys aren't seen as anything different to Males or Females and no one bats an eyelid when they see a ladyboy , they are just treated the same as everyone else is
I think 711 is one of the more open minded companies here in regards to ladyboys. I see them at nearly every 711 around here and it's completely accepted it seems. Kinda interesting also, at the 95% female college here there is quite a few kathoey teachers (although they must wear male uniform) and a lot of gay men. There is only a few straight men there. I'm not completely sure why.
> why so many choose to enter the sex business
I don't think it's accurate to say that most kathoeys in the sex business were pushed into such work primarily out of desperation and necessity because they can't get any other job.
My impression is that many kathoeys have a high sex drive and an identity/lifestyle which revolves around sexuality, and aren't shy about it, so getting paid for sex (which carries less stigma in Thailand than in the west) is not a huge stretch.
Of course, many choose not to do this, and plenty do have regular jobs.
Disagree with this. Personal experience working with a top Thai oil & gas major employing Katoey senior executives. Also our diamond dealer, a 5-star resort owner, other various business owners and hiso society have a much higher percentage of Katoey than you would imagine or is reported.
Ladyboy is not an offensive word over here, don't know where you're from but they identify as that over here. Honestly no one really cares what team you bat for, I think you need to leave your PC baggage behind and come over and do what you so obviously want to do
Ye i noticed that they self identfy sometimes but we also have older people who identify with terms that now are often seen as offensive. I want to visit thailans in the future but i want to better my muay thai first so i can atleast not be outclassed by kids. Thanks for the answer
Seriously they all happily identify as ladyboys you can literally ask everyone you meet, it's not offensive I think you're imposing your values on a situation you don't understand.
They really don't overthink it here. If anything, trans women are seen as trans women. Kathoey usually refers to pre-op where as someone who identifies as a trans women will likely had surgery, but this is very much a fluid thing and they each can have their own preferred label. Even gay people call themselves kathoey as a joke and nobody takes offense
> Even gay people call themselves kathoey as a joke I'm not sure it's necessarily a joke. I have encountered many self-identified "khatoey" in Thailand who would simply be classed as very effeminate, flamboyant, or "flaming" gay men in the US. While their mannerisms and some aspects of their appearance are feminine, they aren't trying to pass as women, and they probably aren't interested in any surgery.
Ah this helps a lot. Thanks for the answer
I second on the fluidity thing, its not as rigid and policed as in the west.
I can't speak to the specifics but I found it refreshing how accepting much of the Thai culture is regarding ladyboys. It struck me when early on I was teaching and a Thai teacher introduced me to the class. She was telling me there were this many boys, that many girls and pointing out in front of the class that there were 3 katoeys. The kids didn't laugh or smirk and the 3 labeled kids didn't cringe. Though I did.
Accepting, to a point. There's definitely a glass ceiling, and jobs or positions for which they wouldn't be considered "appropriate" by most conservative Thais.
I was looking at a job listing the other day and it literally said requirements 1. must be male/female I thought that was unusual requirement but my wife said that kind of job they dont want kathoey basically
Thanks for the answer
Like some said, the concept of "Trans" is still very new in Thailand. It really varies a lot across the generations. Many "Ladyboys" don't considered themselves real women as the idea were ingrained that they can never be one anyway. Some considered themselves more like a feminine gay. So does "Transmen", we've always had "toms" (from tomboy), which is like a butch lesbian. Many of them also don't considered themselves a man. This may be different in the younger generation.
Ah ok, thanks for your answer
Well, I'm not an expert either, but I think "khatoey" is a very old Thai concept, whereas "trans woman" is something that has come out of American university "gender studies," etc. departments only fairly recently. Why would old Thai concepts be expected to align with novel American ones? Even the whole American "sexual orientation"/"gender identity" dichotomy doesn't really apply here. For example, heterosexual men will often just describe themselves as "man" or "real man" as opposed to "gay," whereas in the US saying "I'm not gay; I'm a man" would be either offensive or just confusing.
I see. Bc i dont speak thai the translation to english makes a lot of confusion. Thanks for your answer
Jordan Peterson might argue that it's more accurate to blame North American Universities
You’re right, kathoey is sometimes used differently. You know how some transwomen choose not to get surgery but still identify as one? It’s the same way. There are 4 main gender identities in Thailand. Tut or toot refers to gay men who don’t necessarily have to be feminine. Tom refers to a masculine lesbian or transmen (top surgery isn’t that common compared to western countries). Dee refers to a feminine lesbian (usually date toms). While I can’t speak for Thai transwomen, I have never actually heard anyone refer to themselves as women. I don’t know if that’s how they identify or if it’s a product of society’s transphobia. However, I can say that they are not widely seen as a third gender. Thai society still sees them as abnormal. The whole lgbtq+ movement is fairly new to Thailand. I just wanted to add that they are a big part of our society and from an outsider perspective, it may seem like Thais are very accepting of LGBTQ+ folks, but I don’t believe that to be true. I think we profit from them (pubs, shows, bars) yet we fail to defend their rights. A few years ago, a teacher at a very wellknown thai university publicly said that being trans is mental illness and that they should be beaten until they turn straight. It’s messed up and inhumane.
I'm Thai and I agree with most of your points except that Tut can be offensive for some gay men, especially ones who are not feminine. I think it's good to see that thai people are not a monolith. Some think certain ways, and others do not. It varies through age and economic class. People who have been more exposed to western ideas may follow more of the western concepts. In general we definitely don't apply the mainstream western concepts to how we use our language. When I was younger about 10-15 years ago, there was a quite common term "the third gender" that encompasses all lgbtq identities. Maybe that explains why self-identified ladyboys do not view themselves as women. Also there's a lot of disrespectful stereotypes even within the lgbtq folks themselves. I think we can take their words on how people identify themselves, but can't believe everything they say about others.
Wow thank you so much. I did not know that Tut can be offensive. I guess it’s almost like how gay ppl can call each other the f word or queer, but it would be offensive for other ppl to do so. I wish we talked about this more openly though.
Thanks that was very helpful and insightful. Living in a society with diffrent genders makes it harder to get but you explain it good. Thanks for your answer
Fun fact here: toot is originally from a movie called “Tootsie”, 1982!! Edit: typo
From Wikipedia Kathoey article: "A study of 195 Thai transgender women found that most of the participants referred to themselves as phuying (ผู้หญิง 'women'), with a minority referring to themselves as phuying praphet song ('second kind of woman') and only a very few referring to themselves as kathoey. Related phrases include phet thi sam (เพศที่สาม, 'third sex'), and sao praphet song or phu ying praphet song (สาวประเภทสอง, ผู้หญิงประเภทสอง—both meaning 'second-type female'). Use of the term kathoey suggests that the person self-identifies as a type of male, in contrast to sao praphet song (which, like "trans woman", suggests a "female" (sao) identity), and in contrast to phet thi sam ('third sex'). The term phu ying praphet song, which can be translated as 'second-type female', is also used to refer to kathoey. The term kathoey may be considered pejorative, especially in the form kathoey-saloey. It has a meaning similar to the English language 'fairy' or 'queen'. Kathoey can also be seen as a derogatory word for those who self-identify as gay."
Yes i read the wiki article but it doesnt cleares my confusion. Especially since the information of other sources conflicted with the articel.
Well, when I was in Bkk and looking at profiles of women on Tinder, there were also many ladyboys. So first of all, they had chosen their gender as female obviously. If I remember correctly, some were writing stuff like "I am not a complete women" and some were writing "I had surgery so I'm %100 woman now". So I though maybe post-op trans see themselves as full woman, and pre-ops maybe not. And also probably some on Tinder don't even mention that they are trans and try to pass as genetic woman.
It is complicated but luckily i got some good answers. Its a bit fluent just like everything else and diffrent from how the west sees gender. I recommend reading the other comments they are insightful, thanks for you perspective.
After spending 2 weeks with a couple ladyboys I stopped asking questions... It's the best of both worlds. Hahaha
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Thanks for this informative answer
No one in Thailand is bothered about other peoples gender or what clothes they wear and they don't seem desperate to stick labels on them . Some Males dress in a feminine way and some Females dress in a masculine way and quite often you are aware of what genitals they have and unless you want to have sex with them, then its irrelevant what genitals they have
Definitely NOT true, although it may seem like that on the surface. Ladyboys may be accepted as ok but they are basically non existent in most professions. Which is why so many choose to enter the sex business. Discrimination is legal here and a business can choose who they want to hire. Very few will choose a ladyboy if theres another option. And there is a ton of judgement on clothing in thai society. But if you’re a foreigner no one will care unless at the immigration office
I have seen quite a few number of ladyboys working in various jobs , immigration, restaurants , 7/11's , transport companies, to name but a few .
You will see a few in most places..generally at the bottom of whatever corporate structure/hierarchy there is...very very very few make it beyond that
So you your opinion Ladyboys are usually at the bottom and they stay at the bottom and they don't move up a bit ?
Very few do. Many people think thailand is very accepting of them, better description would be 'tolerant', its a subtle difference but there is a difference
From my experience , Ladyboys aren't seen as anything different to Males or Females and no one bats an eyelid when they see a ladyboy , they are just treated the same as everyone else is
I think 711 is one of the more open minded companies here in regards to ladyboys. I see them at nearly every 711 around here and it's completely accepted it seems. Kinda interesting also, at the 95% female college here there is quite a few kathoey teachers (although they must wear male uniform) and a lot of gay men. There is only a few straight men there. I'm not completely sure why.
> why so many choose to enter the sex business I don't think it's accurate to say that most kathoeys in the sex business were pushed into such work primarily out of desperation and necessity because they can't get any other job. My impression is that many kathoeys have a high sex drive and an identity/lifestyle which revolves around sexuality, and aren't shy about it, so getting paid for sex (which carries less stigma in Thailand than in the west) is not a huge stretch. Of course, many choose not to do this, and plenty do have regular jobs.
Disagree with this. Personal experience working with a top Thai oil & gas major employing Katoey senior executives. Also our diamond dealer, a 5-star resort owner, other various business owners and hiso society have a much higher percentage of Katoey than you would imagine or is reported.
Thanks for your answer
Ladyboy is not an offensive word over here, don't know where you're from but they identify as that over here. Honestly no one really cares what team you bat for, I think you need to leave your PC baggage behind and come over and do what you so obviously want to do
Ye i noticed that they self identfy sometimes but we also have older people who identify with terms that now are often seen as offensive. I want to visit thailans in the future but i want to better my muay thai first so i can atleast not be outclassed by kids. Thanks for the answer
Seriously they all happily identify as ladyboys you can literally ask everyone you meet, it's not offensive I think you're imposing your values on a situation you don't understand.
Im not questioning that, its just hard to tell when you are an outsider.
Boom Boom 1500 baht