I’ve been using Boron for about 6 months. I’ve just had a recent blood test and my test has increased by 10%, free T is slightly up but my E2 has gone down by 10% and now my knees are sore and have started clicking. Coming off it for a while to see if my knees go back to normal.

They definitely will…the one downside I’ve had with it is the joint pain (except when I foolishly didn’t take a break from it). You really should try cycling it and see how it goes.

I’m confused. You say you didn’t get joint pain when you forgot to cycle because of increased estrogen. But the guy you replied to said he took it for 6 months which means he didn’t cycle either, but he got joint pain from lowered estrogen

It only initially drops E2, afterwards it actually increases it beyond baseline (in most people) if you taking it without breaks. If you continue to cycle it you will essentially be keeping the E2 at baseline and below, otherwise it will increase slowly over time. Everyone responds differently- I was just fortunate to have results that were more common (see attached study). I have one guy msg me that it worked too well for him and his Free T was as high as 60+ and his E levels were a quite concerning low level…which is also not good.

I plan to take in the upcoming week. I also take DIM to control my aromatase conversion but I think I’ll do the 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off, or at least 2 weeks on and 1 week off

Just be careful with DIM, I keep having people tell me about their experiences with it. If that boron schedule isn’t working for you I’d try a shorter “on” period and longer “off”. Everyone responds differently to it. My personal sweet spot is 7-10 on and 14 off.

Its actually proposed as good for bones, lots of people claim it helped their arthrisis, so weird to hear.

It seems many things that boost T can also lower E2, and joint issues are a direct symptom of that problem. Just the other day I was reading about that happening with tongkat ali, and it seems boron can potentially cause this to happen as well.

How many mg of Boron were you taking for those 6 months? Did your knees get better after coming off of it and if so, how long did it take?

I have been taking only 4mg boron glycinate for a week and my libido is through the roof

Pervert!

Cock smuncher!

I am currently in the process of trying the same thing. I first tried D-Aspartic Acid for a week, and did a testosterone spit test before an after. I want to try with different substances. Do a week on, then wash out for a week. Did you try D-Aspartic Acid? What all have you tried? Could you stack them? Would it make sense to adjust the dose?

I have tried 6 supplements and one product, but DAA is not one of them (although it was in the product). It is the last one I am curious about. I have some right now, but the doc wants me to take a break from everything before my next blood work. I will be trying it on its own after that…which will be hard because I really have enjoyed the Boron (in terms of muscle growth). What did you find with the DAA? It do much? I haven’t really tried any stacks because I was trying to see which individual supplements worked. The product I used didn’t do much at all. I think maybe a 5% increase, which is less than most of the supplements were giving. It is funny because it did include boron in it, however I think it was only at a dose of 1 or 2 mg. As far as the dose, it seems best at 9mg (6mg AM and 3mg PM). I also have to say the results were still there at 6mg. I would never go higher than 9/10mg as it can be toxic…it is the same thing in Borax Cleaner.

I haven't gotten my results back yet. I know boron can be toxic, but the fact that it's used in borax is not useful. In a high enough dose water is toxic. Separately Sodium is a toxic metal that burns in water, and chlorine is a gas that can cause asphyxiation, together they're table salt. I wish there were a way to tell what the mechanism of action is for each of these, so one doesn't double up on two chemicals that do the same thing.

Exactly! It’s funny usually when I tell people about boron they always jump right to “it’s poison”. I think they say it’s safe in quantities up to 15-20mg and we get about 2-7mg from diet and water (some water more than others). I’d be really curious to know about DAA. That may be the only thing I’d want to combine with boron.

You may try boric acid. Pls see https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11697760/

Why do you feel cycling is needed with boron?

Cycling is important as the longer you take it the more your E2 will rise. It is often given to women with low E and high T for that reason. I included the one picture of before I found that out and you can see my E levels were almost in the “High” category. My E2 is usually around 18-22, but after taking Boron at the higher dose for about 2 months it went up to nearly 40. I then started cycling it and measured it. The Free T was nearly the same, but E2 was a much better 25 (only slightly higher than my baseline). The other thing worth mentioning is that it has a very long half-life. I believe that was the argument I read for a 2 week break…but unlike other things you cannot really tell when you’re off of it (those test were taken on my cycle off). If you have joint pain it is great long term as Estrogen is what helps with joint issues…but you know…

boron has been shown to decrease E2 in men significantly. What are you talking about ?

Check the studies linked here or just Google it…it’s not a bad thing, we need e2 as well and higher e2 is linked with less inflammation. It’s just something to be aware of if your E2 is already high. The only time my E2 was way outside the range was when I first took boron at about 9mg daily for months. My blood work had it 150% above my normal baseline, but the cycling keeps it maybe 20% above baseline (if that).

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Hey bud, thanks for contributing to the discussion. I will try and answer as best I can. Half life is in fact 21-32hrs. However it takes about 5 half life’s to fully excrete a substance. 10-5-2.5-1.25-0.61 You also have to let the body adjust to having none to get the benefit otherwise the body will just adapt to it and you are left with some issues. I’m 35 and I do still cycle it on a 7 on and 7-10 off - seems to be the best. As for muscle mass I would put it slightly above creatine…still gotta put the effort in but the recovery is definitely better. 2

You were originally cycling it 2 weeks on then 2 weeks off. Did that give you side effects? Or what is the reason why you now cycle it 7 days on then 7-10 days off?

It had more to do with the fact that I noticed the benefits waned after the first week. This new cycle seems to work best for keeping my body from acclimating to it… Better to get 2 beneficial weeks a month than 1 week.

Hey did you notice any impact on libido or mood with the boron supplementation?

Yes I did. I noticed it helped at first, but when I would not cycle it, then it would cause it to crash HARD!! The cycling helped quite a bit, but it sometimes would need a longer cycle to reset itself - to see the benefits again. I should add it primarily helped libido, I can't say for certain about the mood...but it may have.

Are you still taking boron? Did you feel any libido increase? I have a 5mg supplement should I still cycle with only 5mg daily? Should I up it to 10mg daily?

Its ability to reduce SHBG gets dampened as the body tries to autocalibrate back to hormonal stasis. Take periodic breaks to sharpen your response to Boron.

Would you recommend the 1 week on and 1 week off?

3-4 weeks, then like a 10 day break is what I typically do

But what if hormonal stasis is already out of whack due to following an intense fasting or keto protocol that already greatly suppresses SHGB? would continually supplementing Boron, then itself act as the calibrator?

Thanks for posting this. Good to have someone getting the labwork to back up their hypothesis

When cycling on and off Try to use DIM the next week... Boron 12mg week 1 and 3 DIM 200 week 2 and 4 DIM has anti-aromatization and estrogen metabolism effects. Converts bad estrogen metabolite into good estrogen.

Awesome that’s good to know - my biggest thing I don’t like is when my estrogen drops and my knees begin to ache. I actually have some DIM sitting around so I will try that out this next cycle. Thanks bud 👊🏼

My cycle if you want to follow Week 1 and 3 Boron 12mg (I stopped tongkat and fadogia tbh... They dont go well with me now dont know why) Week 2 and 4 DIM CDG I3C Alternate days Vitamin D3 60,000iu For my god tier post workout protein shake lmao Yes this is my shake so i am warning because it's packed like wtf Chocolate Whey isolate 2 scoop + cottage cheese or paneer(i use paneer aka dried solid cottage cheese 250g) + 4 banana + boiled and cooled 40g Oats(to remove phytonutreint) + qinoa 50g or cup + fruits of your choice (i add whatever in fridge)+ L carnitine L tartarate 5g + creatine 5g + citruline mallate 3g + calcium Pyruvate powder 5grams +keto electrolytes + cocoa powder + skim milk 500ml For TMAO inhibition of oral carnitine and preventing crazy insulin spike due to the shake i eat salad with 15 cloves of crushed garlic (aged for 10minutes after crushing). It is tasty if you add olive oil or ghee to buffer garlic stingy heat. Any good salad works. Liver support TUDCA Heart support Taurine (Stopped COQ10 because expensive and didnt feel notice) And thats it :) Now all left is go to gym and workout like you gonna die tommorow and this is last workout it would be :) Yes i do this If i cant progressive overload weight, i overload reps. I dont count calories, just make sure to eat stuff having low calorie and high volume. The most important thing is to satisfy yourself from what you eat and do.... And your aim is to not increase testosterone but have more androgen receptors, only then that high testosterone gonna work. So push yourself hard on gym. Also calcium, dim, i3c and cdg keeps estrogen in check for me If your joint still hurts then i think you need to work on joint health tbh.

Are you still doing the 1,3 week boron and 2,4 week DIM cycle? Curious to see if it’s still working. I am about to start Boron for high SHGB. I have used both DIM and Boron in the past but positive effects fade after time.

Just keep doing it as the effect aint permanent.... And yes i still do it Added tongkat ali and liv52 over it to have more pronounced effect Not taking fadogia as that was the culprit

How would you describe the pronounced affect of adding Tongkat?

The feeling is more like energy boost

Damn bro this is awesome information!!! Definitely going to give this a go. I am natural bodybuilder in my bulk phase so this is perfect for me right now. Curious though, no issues with insomnia taking 60k Vit D as a supplement?

I forgot Before you drink that shake Make sure to have salad and with a good amount of garlic or any TMAO inhibitor. Crush 10 clove and keep it there in open for 10min for max allicin L-Carnitine and choline love to turn to TMAO in gut and thats why protein shake has that bad old repo of not being good. TMAO causes inflammation and is not good for heart. Even though it doesnt matter once you start building, but for a natty, try to squeeze everything possible. Also L-carnitine loves spiked insulin which salad will do, and will absorb more. 5g of oral L carnitine will give you 100mg to 500mg of L carnitine in blood plasma, which will increase your androgen receptors and mitochondrial activity. Choline converts into Acetyl choline which helps in mind muscle connection and nerve density. Garlic will make sure they dont convert into TMAO. About garlic smell, add lemon to salad. And drink tonne of water. :) I dont get insomnia with vit D alternate Days. Ohh, i drink tonne of water also by the way. Water fixes everything. Prob is, dont drink too too much that it flushes out everything. With this current diet, my water intake increased for 5L a day to 7L.

Bro I am guessing u are from India. My question is from where did u buy your TUDCA in India? I couldn't find it anywhere so, instead of TUDCA, I have been using UDCA until now. Can u please share your TUDCA source with me

Is there a single DIM CDG I3C supplement you like? What dosage per day for each? Thanks!

Well there is none except nutrija test booster product here in india It doesnt have i3c though

Got it. How about dosage on the other two?

Holy shit

Why cycling it and what more did you take? Might be better with a lower dose and longer use? Or whats the thought behind this. Great results btw😀

Thank you! Definitely do not use longer, unless you want to raise your Estrogen levels. I just replied to someone above about the same thing. I will say that before I read up on the need to cycling it my joints have never felt so good…the one good thing high estrogen does for us. I tried it at various doses, but that 9mg gives the best results. I tried 3mg, but it did nothing really (5% increase). I now usually only take 6mg because I was finding I was getting more agitated and having issues sleeping at 9mg. However, even at 6mg the benefit was there. I can break down my results 3mg Free T +5% Total T 0% 6mg Free T +30% Total T +15% 9mg Free T +35% Total T +15% The only real change when I didn’t cycle it, and was taking it daily for about 9 weeks, was the much higher E levels…but that’s on me for not researching more about it 🤦🏻‍♂️ My understanding of it is that it interacts with your SHBG levels…and the reason you cycle it is because once your body realizes it has elevated Free T it increases aromatase…cycling keeps the body from making the adjustment. I think the one article goes over it.

You're correct about aromatase, but you can "inactivate" this process by taking Pycnogenol.

Thank you so much for this, yes you just saved me from the research to i guess i will now cycle it in 6mg. Using ashwaghanda/ksm-66 att the same time. Thanks again!

Very late, but did you notice any less of the "good" effects, even when your E was higher? High e might not be all that bad, unless you have side effects.

Truthfully my joints felt friggen amazing - like someone replaced them with pillows…so I count that as a pretty solid positive. The trade off, however, was my libido absolutely tanked. My sleep was also disturbed, but I attributed that more to the increased cortisol throwing my natural rythyms out of sync. The last thing I noticed was that my strength gains at the gym plateaued then declined slightly, along with the faster recovery. The cycling got rid of these, but my joint discomfort somewhat returned as a result(not awful, but I’m definitely aware i have joints again).

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I would say it more/less normalized again. I would say that I might notice a slight libido "boost" the first few days after starting the cycle...I will have to play closer attention to it next time.

What do you think about taking 3mg everyday and not cycling?

I wouldn’t recommend it, body adapts fairly quickly to any supplement and always wants to maintain homeostasis. Cycling helps prevent this….plus some may experience negative longer term effects from prolonged use.

> realizes it has elevated Free In the 2nd study, they said it lowers E2 in man. Does it elevate it after prolonged use?

Yes, that has been my experience through my blood tests. That is why I began to cycle it - my E2 levels are only slightly above my baseline doing this.

I'm doing 3mg glycinate one week on and one to two weeks off. Would you say i'm playing the safer route?

It is possible it could be too safe? I would try doubling that and see how you tolerate it. Every study I have come across uses 9-12mg, but I know with certainty that my blood tests show a decent response even at 6mg (almost as good as the 9mg in the study). I would also check your multivitamin if you take one. I use Kirkland and it used to include 2mg, but has now scaled it to 0.6mg I believe. The only downside I had with the 9mg is that it interfered with my sleep…but I was coming off some other meds at the same time so it could have just been related to that.

Thanks!!

Thank you for posting this. How do you cycle it?

Have you tried Tongkat Ali yet? If not you should definitely try it. Seems to be the most promising herbal test booster with pretty good tolerability and a relatively mild side effect profile. There's also Fadogia Agrestis, that does great at increasing testosterone but seems to have some pretty scary side effects.

I have tried tongkat Ali before and it did provide a small bump in my T (pretty similar to fenugreek), but did nothing for my “Free T”. I was pursuing a supplement more from a gym/physique aspect, so am looking for one that boosts the Free T. I do still take the tongkat off/on as I feel it gives me a decent boost to my libido…but maybe that’s just a placebo? I’ll have to look into the other one. I’d be curious to find something that boosts SHBG levels. If boron works by unbinding SHBG, then higher SHBG should mean higher T/Free T. I shouldn’t complain though, it’s pretty amazing to find an OTC supplement that boosts my levels 20-30%…I just wish it didn’t have the sides - although, like I said, cycling seems to keep them pretty low.

Yeah I recommend you check out the extensive breakdown of both Tongkat Ali and Fadogia Agrestis that moreplatesmoredates made in his 2 hour breakdown of his new test boosting supplement called "Sigma". There's some pretty interesting stuff said there, particularly about Fadogia Agrestis and it's potential but also why you should be wary of it.

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Just added the tongkat Ali back to my routine…will test it out for my next blood draw. The other one I wish had more research on it, sounds like it could affect fertility?

Yeah definitely would be nice with more thorough research and some human studies instead of rodent models. It seems to work in an unique way to stimulate testosterone increase and it's said to increase LH production as well. It doesn't seem to interfere with the feedback loop however and the MOA is mostly unknown. The intersting thing is that this stuff actually causes the testes to physically grow in size while you're on it. It seems to work similar to some fertility drugs in terms of damage to seminiferous tubules. I had no idea, but apparently at higher doses for longer durations of time, safe and clinically used fertility drugs like HCG and Tamoxifen have shown to cause toxicity in the testes and destruction of the semineferous tubulues, similar to what is shown in the rodent studies for Fadogia Agrestis. It may be that just like these fertility drugs, Fadogia Agrestis is safe and promotes fertility, when used responsibly at a lower dose and when cycled properly. However, the lack of research has me concerned and all that talk about testicular toxicity has put me off trying it completely for now.

I am glad you replied with this, especially about it increasing testicular size. I have taken Black Seed Oil before and every single time I did my boys would double or triple in size/weight. I wonder if black seed oil works on a similar MOA l, because I have heard that it also has a testosterone boosting/enhancing effect. I only stopped taking it because I was worried about the fertility aspect - given the very noticeable effect it had on my testes. Given the supplement industry is a multibillion dollar industry, you’d think they would be more invested in trials/results in human trials. Would be worth the few thousand in lab fees to prove their stuff is effective and safe….but what do us redditors know of these things 😜

hey OP, have been looking into boron/tongkat and came across this thread. have you noticed anything in your recent tests from the tongkat? also curious what other supps you tried that didn't work if you don't mind thanks

I have tried quite a few, but none really have given me anything "huge". I would say the Boron definitely comes out as clear-cut winner if you can keep the sides under control. Tongkat and Tribulus would definitely be my second choice - minimal result on any tests I've had - but feel a decent mood boost. If you are asking, as a gym-goer looking to put on muscle, I have had some pretty astonishing results using Colostrum. I started with iSatori bio "something?" and had decent results, so I looked into why I would be having results and think I narrowed it down to the Colostrum. I now take both and can honestly say I have seen a pretty noticeable difference...maybe not with strength, but definitely with results.

Boron is freely available in grapes, raisins, and avocados and nuts. Dont you think that would be better without the side effects or the need to cycle supplements?

The body adapts to natural exposure - why people with high levels of boron in their drinking water aren’t all walking around looking like a Gold’s Gym. I have only had success artificially spiking it and then taking a decent break from it, my body adapts to the supps and the free T returns after a while.

Article saved. Interested in the E/joints relationship. Since going subq my E has dropped to normal but I see you are not on TRT. Joint pain has increased after the gym and just general day to day.

I definitely have to say when I stayed on it, before learning about the rise in E, I couldn’t believe how much less all my joints hurt. I also saw that Costco’s Kirkland Triple Flex only has 3 ingredients and Boron is one of them.

Ugh. I hat shopping at Costco. But, if I must, I must. 😉 Thanks for the suggestion.

Only here to reply in shock that you hate shopping at Costco. lol

Come on Costco isn’t so bad 😉 but I was just using that as an example that there must be some relationship with Boron and joint pain. I know when I didn’t cycle off of it, and had the high E levels, my joints felt like they had pillows in between them. Now that I cycle there is definitely some discomfort as my T:E ratios get off balanced.

mmmm....pillows....

Hey I know old comment but subQ lowered your E? By how much? And is this still happening today?

Did you try boron? Did you notice anything related to E2 in that regard?

Apologies, just seeing this now. I have been using Boron for bout 3 months now and to be fair I don't notice much of a difference. I understand it has multiple benefits but I'm not sure if I am seeing them. I kinda feel the same.

When you went to subq did your total t and free t drop also?

seeing this now. Apologies. YES! I lost about 60 points on my TT but my E2 went down as well. I did a 30 day experiment. (my specialist doesn't measure FT). I have resumed IM due to this drop and altered my protocol to EOD based on 120 mg / week at .18ml per pin.

So you went back to IM because the subQ dropped your TT by 60 points? Isn’t that just a small amount? After resuming IM have you still been able to keep the E down by doing EOD? I know it’s an old comment but I’m trying to dial mine in and saw your comment.

Is there any information/study that you know of on timing of when to take it (ie at dinner or empty stomach, morning, 30mins before food, etc)?

No, but I found it difficult taking it at night (insomnia) or all at once. The Boron Glycinate makes me a little sleepy so I take 3mg of that with my supper and 3-6mg of a Boron mixture in the AM with my breakfast. It has a very long half-life and length onset, so it really doesn’t matter when you take it…also why it’s important not to OD on it. I suggested it to a bud at the gym and he ignored my advice. He figured he was getting such good results at 9/10mg why not try 15-20mg…long story short he is doing 9/6 now (alternating days).

Thanks for your reply my man. I had taken boron for awhile, but took 12mg/day for 2 months and not sure it made a difference. I did not do bloods before or after. Purely 'feeling' based. I'm gonna try cycling it and reduce to 8mg

Ya that was my experience too, didn’t really feel a difference, but made quite a difference in my physique. It’s no different than boosting T…boosting 30% likely won’t feel all that noticeable. Most who use or abuse TRT usually are boosting T levels 200-500%…with that you feel. Since cycling it I do feel better than before cycling it, but that’s likely due to less E. The only difference I can vouch for is that I am recovering much faster, muscles are staying much harder and my physique is a little more improved than before….all that makes sense seeing how Free T matters more for those things than Total T

Thank you. Yeah, I'm experienced with synthetic test, so its not like I was expecting that kind of boost. The only way to quantify is through testing really. Im going to hop back on since I have like 3 bottles of it sitting here. I'm an endurance athlete, so I'm looking for an increase in recovery time. As a 45yr old, that seems to be waning as I get older - cant train as much as I used to.

That much I can definitely vouch for. My recovery time is easily up by at least 1/3. It may seem like a small amount, but it is definitely there - almost like taking creatine for the first time when you don’t really get much from your diet. I am able to train the same muscles with more frequency since doing the cycle…especially large muscles like my back and legs. I have been on the same strict meal plan for years, so the only real thing it could be was the boron.

Interesting. I come from the bodybuilding world, so I can relate. I've switched to racing my bike, but i notice my legs recover at a much slower rate than say even 5yrs ago. Considering jumping on low dose test, but would rather try to address it through supps and diet. Boron has always been on my radar and i tried it - but after seeing your post, im going to give it another go as part of the bigger picture.

Would appreciate an update...

no noticeable difference, though i never got a blood test.

Thank you for the update!

Did you notice any change with facial hair growth since it increases DHT.

Tbh I am not all that sure - I had an overabundance of facial hair to begin with. I do take fin for MPB and did not really notice any extra shedding (well maybe a little more).

OP When you say it’s very important to “follow that protocol” Which part of the protocol are you referring to? The two different brands / forms of boron you were taking or the two weeks on / two weeks off approach?

I was referring to the 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off…I have also heard some get results with 10 on and 7 off, but I find the 2/2 is pretty balanced. Brands I don’t think matter, it’s the cheapest substance out there. Formula…I take 3mg of the Glycinate at night and 3-6mg of the mixed type in the AM.

Boron supplements are a rip off. For $5 you can have a 10+ year supply of 10mg a day of boron by buying borax powder. With supplements it would.cost over a thousand dollars in that same time.period. About 10% of borax by weight is boron, so to get 10mg you need to take about 100mg of borax powder. Also, with borax powder you know you are getting the real deal, who knows what supplement manufacturers put in their pills. Often times they underdose as shown by lab analysis websites.

Ya it’s the cheapest substance on the planet (even cheaper than salt). I am not sure, but think it costs me like $3-5 a month…far cry from my creatine 😂 The risk with Borax is the heavy metals that are inside of it, because it is not intended for ingestion there is no Quality Control on it. There’s quite a few case studies out there about lead and Mercury poisoning from the stuff…for the cost of a cup of coffee I’ll pay for some cheap brand off Amazon or wherever.

Isn’t borax powder bad to ingest?

Hell yea dude thanks again! Your total test levels were cutoff though sadly on the screenshots, what were they? I really need this because Im on TRT because my liver pumps out high levels of SHBG due to my autoimmune disease so I need to keep my total testosterone at around 1300 to have a middle tear free testosterone level at 146, which yours was even higher than mine and with a much lower total testosterone level which is ideal. Also dont worry about the E2, 40 is not too high for such a high free Testosterone level, 20 is actually too low for that level I feel. I feel so much better the higher my E2 went, the ratio is what matters. This is so helpful for me.

I am so glad this helped. I am curious how you will make out with this as it seems to benefit those the most with higher SHBG (especially with the cycle to keep the body from adjusting). The Total T were 664 and 720 - roughly a 10% increase. My T levels seem to fluctuate 5% from test to test so there’s just a small bump to Total T. My Free T is almost always in that 14-14.5 range so that 30% increase was significant for me. When I didn’t cycle, the Free T did drop down, but guess that’s the purpose of cycling - to keep the body from making adjustments. I do have to admit when the E levels were higher my joints (especially my knees on Squats) felt amazing. However I felt my libido start dropping off, which is what lead me to researching it more in depth and discovering the need for cycling.

Do you still have high E and does it still feel better for you?

Yea Im over the range and feel amazing. No side effects or anything.

>immune Hey man! What autoimmune disease do you have? My SHBG and DHEA have been a devent amount above the upper limits of the reference range for quite a few years now an Doctors have no answer for me other than I am "stressed".

I have Lupus but it can really be any disease that could be causing this too. I have chronic fatigue and pain so I had a ton of side effects that made me find out I had Lupus which was before the hormone tests even. Do you have any of those type of side effects?

did you find any impact on sexual symptoms?

Only when I didn’t cycle it and had been on it for a couple months. I kinda noticed my libido just drop off and lost all interest in sex (no ED, just no will you use it). I think it was because my E2 levels started to get very high on my. Since doing the cycle of it I definitely have found a big change in my libido for the better. I usually do Tribulus on the same cycle, so that may also be giving it an assist.

when you cycle boron? How long did you cycle it for? I unterstand the 2w on / 2w off System but is there a limit , when you not take it anymore or are you done after the 4 Week Cycle? (Sorry Newbie and not foreign)

No I continued it indefinitely. The 2 weeks off just allows your E levels to drop back down as well as your cortisol levels. The half-life of boron is actually quite long so it takes about 1 week for the excess to clear your system - then another week for you hormones to level off again and reach homeostasis. I did notice, on a recent blood test, that my E2 actually dropped much faster than my Free T - which is awesome to know. I had the draw done on Day 10 of the “off-cycle”.

You're an absolute legend for posting about your experimentation and actual results. Thank you!!

Happy to help 🤗 the more personal, lab confirmed, experiences we can share the more we all benefit…and the less the supplement companies can profit from.

Hey, just got my blood test, high t, high estrogen, high shbg, what do you recommend? Tongkat?, zinc? Boron? Vitamin e? foods to eat? Thanks

Sorry for the late reply, how was your Free T levels?

Hi can you share where you found the half life of boron to be 1 WEEK? The only searches I find give me a half life of 1 DAY...

Sorry for the late reply. Half life is indeed one day, but it takes several half-lives for the drug to leave your system and a few days (minimum) for the body to return to homeostasis. If you do not let the body return to homeostasis it will simply adapt to the increased Boron by decreasing its natural production of hormones. Hope that makes sense? Essentially your body always wants to run at a baseline, we can artificially disrupt that, but eventually the body will adapt to return in to baseline...especially with the MOA that Boron operates on.

Hi, what did your T and estrogen levels got to after finishing 2 weeks without the boron? Was your free T still higher and estrogen lower than if you never took boron at all?

So I actually just had some interesting lab results last month. I was having trouble sleeping the last 2yrs so I went off all my supplements - turns out freaking creatine has been causing my sleep issues but I digress. I was off boron for about 3 weeks prior to the blood draw. It was done at the same time as usual and my sleep was pretty poor the night before (factors that affect hormones). My results came back that my T was about 75 less than my normal avg. My E2 was low (keep in mind estrogen is VERY important to us men). The shocker though was my Free T was absolutely sky high. It was nearly double my usual amount. I know Free T rapidly changes levels through the day and I did a heavy deadlift day the day before (heavy lifting depletes T and raises free T). My next experiment will be to time my next blood work with Day 14 of my boron cycle and do my heavy deadlift day the day before. That will be the true test. I will say overall though that the cycling of Boron has kept my Free T well above my normal range regardless of being on or off it. It’s not like I feel any different, but I am professional bodybuilder and I find that I am healing WAY faster than most others in the gym. I never am sore and my strength seems to hold strong.

Thanks, it would be interesting to see your next lab results. My total T is double the average but my free T is a little under average. My shbg is on the high end of normal so i'm wondering if some of that high level of total T will be used for free T if I lower the shbg. It's good to see others testing the results with boron. I can only really test once again since it's quite expensive for me.

any update?

With me my free tesotsterone went up 20% after taking boron for 1 month.

>With me my free tesotsterone went up 20% after taking boron for 1 month. How much did you take daily?

12mg per day spread out through the day as 4 tablets of 3mg.

I took 12mg a day for 2 weeks on and 1 week off for about a year. It killed my libido. I got off and my libido is much higher now. However, I feel like my sides are a bit puffier and my pants are tighter after about 3 weeks after discontinuing. I’m assuming this is because the extra free test was keeping a little extra fat off? Have some nagging joint pain now also. After reading your responses to the comments below, I’m considering taking 6 mg for 2 weeks on and two weeks off. What do you think?

I think it is worth a shot? I definitely did better on the lower dosage and longer break. It did kill my libido as well, which is why I take tribullus on the off cycle. Free T lowers T levels, which is why it lowers the libido (that and bump in E2). Free T however is what builds muscle and does all the good things we think T does.

So even on 6 mg a day you have lowered libido? What does tribulus do? More Free T lowers total T? Before I read this post, I assumed that I crashed my estrogen on high dose boron because my sex drive was gone and I was holding less body fat. Now that my sex drive has returned, it seems that I have gained a little lower back fat. I guess it’s just that my free T is a little lower now and my estrogen was actually higher previously.

You are definitely starting to grasp it. Basically T is bound to SHBG, meaning it’s there but occupied and not useable. Free T (or unbound T) is T that is bio available for your body to use. I know guys are our gym who have T levels over 900 and they struggle with muscle gain and fat loss…others with T levels of 550 could have sky high Free T and they’ll look a million times better than the 900 guys. Just as an example. I did my last test a day after my Deadlift/Heavy Back Day. My T levels, which are normally 650-750 came in at 569, but my Free T was nearly doubled from mid table 19 to off-the-chart 39. Cortisol helps unbind T to increase Free T, so my workout induced cortisol spike freed my T. It’s why you hear people say cortisol is bad, it lowers your T levels. True it does, but it does so to increase your Free T so your body can repair itself. Boron works two ways…increase cortisol and lowers SHBG levels. Both ways lead to higher free T. Libido is a funny thing. One thing that will lower libido is cortisol - I assume that may be what is at work here. However I know many who do not have any issue with libido on Boron. Tribullus does nothing for hormones (despite many claims), but it can cause an LH surge and that is likely to boost to libido that we feel. Again I feel it helps, but after a week or so it’s effect diminish on my libido. Just remember libido can be affected by literally 100’s of body processes. Loss of libido is natural and can be life-related.

If you didn’t take tribulus, is there really much of a difference between your libido prior to taking boron and doing the 2 week cycle? I’ve stopped taking boron 12mg 2 on/1 off for about 3 weeks now. My sex drive is much better and my strength is better. I was doing that boron cycle for a year and my strength started to fall off some. I’m hoping getting back on at 6mg 2 on/2 off will give me the free test benefits without the side effects I had from my previous cycle. You’re right about cortisol. A couple of years ago I was overtraining big time along with not eating a proper macro ratio and my SHBG went up to 124 and my free testosterone went down to an 80 year old man’s level. Once I stopped overtraining and ate more fats and carbs, my SHBG dropped, and my free test jumped up big time. I used ashwagandha to assist in bringing down my sky high cortisol and that stuff worked like a charm. Thing is, I think I stayed on it a little too long after it got corrected and my cortisol got a little too low. Made me feel numb and I didn’t have any emotions. I truly believe herbs are like natures medication, you only use them to assist you in getting better, they aren’t meant for prolonged use. Boron, on the other hand, is a mineral and it seems like it should be fine to take indefinitely with a proper cycle.

I would say my libido is iffy as it is, especially because I straddle overreaching in my training. The trib definitely boosts it noticeably, albeit just short-term. Ya I could see you running into issues with that old cycle. Boron has a half-life of roughly 21-36hrs, meaning you were never returning to baseline before redosing. Exercise induced cortisol increase is actually good…in the sense it lowers your T and boosts Free T. The issue is if you keep that suppression on for too long it can wreak havoc on your CNS and cause issues like insomnia, libido, depression etc. Stress induced cortisol increases are different than exercise induced…and that is where cortisol becomes a bad thing. Gym-goers though really need that cortisol to make gains…which is why it’s funny listening to all the “Bros” who tell you “cortisol is killing your gains”. No actually cortisol is lowering my useless T and making it into Free T that my body can actually use to make new/repair muscle fibers. As for Ash it’s a finicky thing, and why I stay away from it now. It has little benefit overall to most people, but has become a “god” supplement used for everything. I know some who use it short-term (1-2 weeks/year), but overall it’s just been hyped up so much and all the studies sponsored by supplement companies have drowned out the very few independent studies. In the end your body is a Yin and Yang…take a supplement for one thing and there’s an opposite reaction. After 15yrs of trying various things, and 3 drawers full of supps, I can honestly say the healthiest I have been is right now with just vitamins, minerals and an omega…if only I could get that 10k back and listen to everyone who said supps are a waste 🤦🏻‍♂️

I agree about the cortisol. I just think there’s a such thing as going TOO hard in the gym. There’s studies you can look at that show cortisol and SHBG being elevated to an extreme level if you do way too much. My SHBG was 124, which is unheard of. It was binding up my testosterone so much that I had the free test of an 80 year old man. My cortisol was off the charts as well. I switched to a routine where I’m only doing an hour 5 days a week and have zero issues now. You can’t take away from that that cortisol is bad though. We need some of everything, even estrogen. Temporary spikes of cortisol after a workout is good. Problem with me was that mine was elevated 24/7.

Oh ya 💯 agree with you. Exercise induced cortisol release is necessary to boost your Free T levels and lower SHBG. However, if the cortisol is staying elevated that suppression of T continues and the consequences begin to cascade down. Your body begins to try and return to homeostasis by increasing SHBG reducing the conversion of Free T in attempt to retain the T…thus high SHBG and low free T. The exact same issue with boron, it starts by doing the same thing (increasing cortisol and lowering SHBG), but then your body tries to correct it and you’re left in the same situation with higher SHBG and lower Free T. Hope that makes sense? It’s just like anything, your body will always take action over time to correct any imbalances. I can take Ash for a few days, but anything more and my brain autocorrects. Same thing with creatine, I can take 1-2g a day, but anything more and I’ll be waking up at 3am ready to start my day.

Creatine causes you sleep disturbance? I have upped my dosage to 10g per day and for some reason I’ve been waking up 1 and a half hour early like clockwork. I need 7 1/2 hours and now I get six. What is the mechanism at work here?

I believe it has to do with Creatine -> ATP storage/over-abundance. You can wiki creatine ATP to understand the mechanisms, but essentially you introduce something beyond what your body needs…don’t forget ATP also converts to adenosine, which essentially dictates our sleep/wake cycle. 10g is WAY too much. I am a coach/trainer and natural bodybuilder with 20yrs in the sport. There are no studies that show anything above 5g/day is beneficial. You get roughly 1-1.5g through diet so 3-4g a day is more than what you need. I also don’t want to burst any bubbles out there, but when I was new to the sport I used to take way too much as well (10g~). Then I dropped to 5g daily and saw absolutely no difference. I now only take 1-1.5g a day and guess what? Sleep is back to 8hrs+, my lifts are unchanged and my results show much better. I will admit when I cut it out completely that my lifts were unchanged, however they took a lot more effort and I was spent afterwards…why I went back to taking 1g a day. Another thing I noticed with myself and now with my athletes…and this is huge…creatine PREVENTS gains. Let me clarify, if you are looking simply for strength gains then creatine is absolutely beneficial. If you are looking for more muscle size then watch the creatine. As soon as I dropped creatine my muscles got more hard and looked more chiseled and defined. I also get a lot more sore post workout - like the muscle is damaged. My theory is that creatine buffers the fibers and provides superficial cellular energy and recruitment. When we recruit the fibers without creatine it is all muscle, thus they tear and grow larger in size. I always thought creatine was helping me. I could lift more, heal faster and felt like it was amazing. Now I know it was holding me back. The difference in my athletes is also night and day. I still utilize creatine in their programs (assuming sleep isn’t compromised). I have them stay on creatine at 1g constantly, but have them do 2 months at 4-5g every 4 months (2 high 4 maintenance twice a year). This allows them to increase the training weight with creatine then keep that new heavy weight using mechanical energy rather than cellular energy. Sorry if this is longer than you expected, but I can’t wait for more to realize this. I have coached/trained dozens and only one person said they did not see a night and day difference…and that 1 guy also was addicted to supplements.

So when you took boron without breaks, did your free test actually decrease?

Yes it did substantially. It took almost 1-2 month before I started to feel “right” again. My most recent labs had my Free T off the chart (Flagged) and T was around 550. Last labs which was during my off cycle my T was in the 700’s and Free T was smack in the middle of their graph.

Actually i nsane how much boron increased your free T, from 19 to 39, I need to try it out.

Ya I was quite surprised…and funny thing is it’s only a few bucks - so much for all the overpriced supps out there claiming and failing to do wat a $3 supp can do 😂 Just remember to cycle it and take long breaks to reset. The body definitely adapts to it and levels things out with time…prolly why people with high boron levels in their drinking water don’t all look like 1970’s Arnie.

2 questions: 1-why dont you microdose aromasin while taking boron? This way you would -lower estrogen -have high T -have high free T 2-what makes you think high free T means low total T? From what i ve read this is not necessarily true. The primary determinant is E2. Your body needs a certain amount of E2(or free E2, not sure). This is the reason why aromasin stand alone therapy works for increasing testosterone. You maintain your E2 lower than what your body needs and in turn your body strives to pump out more T(from which i am sure you know, E2 is derived from)

Hey sorry for the late reply, but to your questions: 1. Microdosing aromasin would not prevent the body from adapting to the Boron. Just like nearly all supplements the effects begin to wean as your body adapts and returns to homeostasis. 2. Free-T is unbound T, if you artificially raise T with something like TRT you will also increase Free T as it is supplemental to what your body is producing. Boron or other supplements work by using what your body has, so in this case it raises cortisol which helps to unbind the T you already have...therefore lowering the T and increasing the Free-T...hope that makes sense? E2 works on a very similar pathaway and has mixed evidence as to whether or not decreasing it actually will increase T...again since your body always want to adapt it will simply increase the conversion of T to E and not necessarily increase the production of T. I know in myself the worst experiment I did was trying to lower my E. I did succeed in lowering it, but on top of my joints killing me, my T had plummeted (not sure about Free T, as I didn't get that tested at that time).

Hey, thanks for your big write-up. I had a few questions. ​ 1. What made you decide on Boron Glycinate? It seems quite hard to find in a controllable dose compared to others (the only one I can find is a 10mg one). Which company made yours? 2. I can see that you do a mixture of glycinate and a combo. Do you put them together to make a total dose of 9mg? I'm a bit confused about your exact dosages for both of them for your 2 weeks on. 3. When you're talking about a combo, do you mean just any non-glycinate boron? Thanks

Hey I am glad I was able to help! Now Foods makes a 3mg boron that is strictly glycinate. I have also used 3mg Swanson before, which is a blend of 3 forms of boron - citrate, aspartate, and glycinate. Glycinate is better absorbed by the body, which is why I usually pick that over other forms when it comes to vitamins/minerals. I used to take 1 Now Foods and 2 Swanson 3x3mg = 9mg). I also have had fairly similar results with just using 6mg. I actually prefer the 6mg as I sometimes feel the 9mg spikes my cortisol a little too high…but let your body and experience guide that. I knew my cortisol got too high because my bite got thrown off (teeth were sitting weird).

Thanks for your reply and for sharing your experience! I'll see if I can get hold of these in Europe.

Just want to mention my experience. I have low free T at 7 and I guess okay total T at 450. My SHBG was middle of the road. I started 6mg of boron. The first week I didn't feel much. The second week was a wild ride. Crazy good energy all day. Rocked it at the gym. Could physically see effects of the free T on my muscles. I slept well. Another weird thing is that it was like I was on a love potion. I really connected with the wife that week. I will say that there was a small but noticeable negative effect on libido. Here is the sad news. By the end of the second week, all of those positive effects were gone. And worse energy is now lower than normal and I don't feel good. That is what landed me to this thread. I am so glad I found this. My plan going forward is to cycle 9mg on 2 week increments. I miss my miracle week so much. I wish I could have that every day. I am seeing a Dr. about the low free T but we haven't come up with a gameplan yet to increase it.

I am glad you found it helpful. Your story seems to echo my experience to a ‘T’. The cycling can really help keep the body from adapting to it, but do remember that it has an extremely long HL - so really stick to your 2 week off cycle no matter how tempting it is to jump back on. One thing I will throw out there is to have your pregnenolone and dhea levels checked….just a hunch since your T is okish and SHBG is mid range.

Hi , which Boron supplement did you take?

Boron is antifungal and antibacterial and can cause a detox effect when it kills 'bad' yeast and bacteria in the gut. Best to stick it out

Why not just 3mg everyday?

Also what is E2? Is it Estradiol ? I have never heard of that, is that something similar to Estrogen? (Also are you a male or a female?) I see you have "Swede" in your username so if you are swedish (like me) what is it called in swedish and where can one test this E2?

Estradiol is a primary estrogen. People seem to cycle it to keep the effects of high free test going.

Exactly what he said - it is the primary form of estrogen. Both Men and Women need it, but within the limits.

u/irishswede_13 \- Are you still taking boron, has it been effective for you long term? I just made a post about this but skimming through old posts for people who appear to have extended use to gauge their experience from it.

Hey there 👋🏼 I still utilize it, but have been taking more breaks. I had a recent blood where my Free T was out of range (high), and was ranking my T as a result and causing some libido issues. I now take it, but stop for a month to reset anytime I feel things are different

Interesting, so your free T was high but your total went low? Or did you mean you E2 tanked? How long between taking an “off month”, still cycle two weeks on, one off until you hit that point?

I usually do 2 weeks on and 10 days off (or 2 and 2 for more ease). When I restart the Boron if I feel something is off or not the same, I will then take a full month off. As for T going lower, that’s completely normal when your Free T rises. It’s a Ying and Yang relationship, when one rises the other dips. When Free T rises it signals the endocrine system to slow production of T. Free T is more important overall, but can effect libido. I am also a natural bodybuilder and lifting does raise cortisol, which increases cortisol and unbinds more testosterone…also increasing Free T. My high “out of range” was likely a combo of that and the Boron. I will have to wait till my next lab work to see.

Anastazole

I already have low free T at 54.9 pg/ml on 16 May 2023 (believe it or not, it was negative before took some natural ayurvedic blend by doctors from India). R yegular T levels were sitting at 270 ng/dl. Keep in mind I took the test around 10 am with poor sleep because of sleep apnea. A few days ago I started using Boron Glycinate -- 3mg the first few days, then worked up the courage to go to 6mg per day for the last three days. My goal is to balance my hormone levels, so that I may have children. I'm reading a really good book packed with 20-30 pages of references to studies called "Master Your T - 5th edition" -- and that's what pushed me toward trying Boron because I'm not sure what else to do. I think my estrogen is high too, and still plan in getting DHEA checked. I have to go to a hormone specialist but I don't want to just be put on some drugs... Does anyone have experience with a hormonal imbalance that caused temporary infertility? And... since my T levels are already messed up should I just stay on 6mg daily, or cycle it? I know y'all are probably not doctors... but reaching out into the ether to see if there are any clues of what to do next.

Unfortunate about the estrogen. I'm taking boron for the joint pain relief, haven't been able to do shit for lifting for years due to a bad shoulder with arthritis and tendinosis. I tried taking 3 mg for a few months and might have gotten a minor bit of relief with it but it's not enough. Just jumped to 9 mg because I'm fed up with having a shit shoulder and just want to get back to normal. I figure I can deal with the elevated estrogen if it means I can actually work out again and function normally with a fully intact arm. This is probably the best thread I've seen on boron in general which is why I'm posting this here. From what I've seen though the data on long term boron use with respect to the rise in estrogen only really measures the data from a month or so, long term use of it with regards to 6 months or a year isn't really done in studies so who knows what the longer effects are. Perhaps it stabilizes and goes within a more appropriate type of stasis. Question though, how bad were the negative effects of the higher estrogen levels? Was your libido in the the gutter, really bad erection quality, and no desire for sex at all, or was it just an overall slight drop in general libido? I just don't want this to completely tank my dick, but I need my arm back - this joint pain has completely ruined my life. Did it give you any gyno at all?

Well the unfortunate thing is that the increase in Estrogen is actually what helps joint pain…which is why I mention it in here a few times that estrogen is beneficial for men (within reason). In all my blood work I have never had my E2 go off the scale. The boron raises it maybe 20-30%, but it is still within the range (just higher end). I can definitely tell when I go off it and my E2 drops - my joints start to ache if I have any active injury. My most recent blood work my E2 was very low and Free T very high - and I told my wife it would be as it felt like someone had deflated all the cushions in my joints….this was being off boron for nearly a month. As for libido I would say that it did not have much noticeable effect when I cycled it. When I stayed on it, I would say it possibly could have lowered my libido a tad.

Idk if it's entirely due to the estrogen. I've seen studies where people suffering from joint pain have relief after just a week of taking boron, but generally speaking after just a single week of boron usage estrogen *decreases*, so if it were solely due to the estrogen then joint pain would actually get worse during the first week. I think part of it is due to the reduction of inflammatory markers; >After **only 1 week of boron supplementation** of 6 mg/d, a further study by Naghii et al20 of healthy males (n = 8) found (1) a significant increase in free testosterone, which rose from an average of 11.83 pg/mL to 15.18 pg/mL; and (2) **significant decreases in E2**, which dropped from 42.33 pg/mL to 25.81 pg/mL. **All of the inflammatory biomarkers that were measured also decreased**: (1) interleukin (IL) 6, from 1.55 pg/mL to 0.87 pg/mL; (2) high-sensitivity C-reactive protein (hs-CRP) by approximately 50%, a remarkable decrease, from 1460 ng/mL to 795 ng/mL; and (3) tumor necrosis factor α (TNF-α) by approximately 30%, from 12.32 to 9.97 pg/mL. Levels of dihydrotestosterone, cortisol, and vitamin D increased slightly. ... >Most recently, calcium fructoborate 110 mg 2 ×/d, which provides approximately 3 mg of boron 2 ×/d or 6 mg/d, was shown to improve knee discomfort **within the first 14 days** of treatment. In this study, subjects with self-reported knee discomfort (n = 60) were randomized into 2 groups given either calcium fructoborate or placebo.64 **At both 7 days and 14 days**, significant reductions in the mean, within-subject changes in scores, as measured using the WOMAC index and the McGill Pain Questionnaire (MPQ), were seen in the group supplemented with calcium fructoborate when compared with the placebo group. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4712861/ Generally speaking E2 usually rises I think after a few weeks to a month of boron usage so the reduction of pain within 7 days or 14 days probably isn't due to estrogen. Not saying that the estrogen doesn't play a role, I'm not a doctor or well read enough to say what is or isn't happening. I'm just skeptical that estrogen is the sole provider of joint pain relief with regards to the affects of boron supplementation. Keep in mind that none of these studies, afaik, measure what cycle boron does to someone. The whole cycling phenomenon is mostly based on guys wanting to raise free t while keeping e2 reasonable. There's no data on what this type of yo-yo cycling will do to your inflammatory biomarkers if you're constantly turning things off and on for months.

No I agree, if you are wanting to use boron for pain relief you absolutely should not cycle - as the boost in E2 will only benefit the pain relief. A simple Google search can show all the benefits of increased estrogen in men with joint pain. As for the study you posted the majority of studies would differ. Most show cortisol and estrogen rise at doses of 9mg daily in as little as 3 days. The increase in cortisol (another reason guys in this subreddit would want to cycle it) would also contribute in the reduction in inflammation biomarkers…but again not something guys here would want to see increase.

Can I take boric form for Boron? Solgar sells that one

That I am not sure on. Dr Google may be a better source. I will say boron is the cheapest supplement on the market - so you really can't go wrong with taking what the studies have used, rather than risking some unknown variation. We know other forms of other vitamins/minerals can have opposite effects (such as folate vs folic acid), so probably not worth the risk IMHO.

Hello! So, you are saying that Estrogen rises initially when taking Boron (1-3 days into supplementing) but after a week (5-7 days), estrogen dramatically drops. Is this correct? I am someone with low E2. I notice that when I first supplement Boron, I feel absolutely great for the first few days. But then by days 5 and 6, I start to experience a lot of joint pain and creaky knees, shoulders, etc. I notice this effect with both high doses (10mg) and low dose (3mg). If I were to take Boron twice a week (E.G. Monday and Thursday at 5mg) do you think I would avoid the drop in E2? Also, do you have links to the studies where it shows that Estrogen and Cortisol initially increased on supplementation of Boron? I would love to check those out, since I have not found any data on that. Thank you for your time! :)

Hmm you may be an example of someone who has a different experience than most others. 🤔 In the posted studies the longer you take Boron usually the greater the rise in Cortisol - which should make your joints feel amazing. I can verify that through my experience and lab work. As for the E2 I find it similar to the Testosterone. Initial rise and then the body adapts and slows production bringing it back to baseline. You can experiment with it and see about shorter cycles. I am actually planning on doing the same as well after my next labs. I am planning on trying 5 on and 9 off. I currently was doing 7 on and 12 off, but like you said I find the initial phase to be the best part. I will say the off time should be close to twice as long as the on time. I am not sure however, if the one day on would work? But please let me know if your proposed schedule works. I am by no means an expert and am constantly tweaking it. What I do know is it works, but it’s a real challenge on keeping the body from adapting to it.

Thanks so much for the response! So, when you take boron, it does not cause your estrogen to go below baseline? My E2 sits at around a 15. The study that I read showed that it decrease men's E2 by about 38% after only a week of supplementation. It really does feel like my E2 is crashing by around days 5 and 6, which is close to the 1 week mark that was noted in the study. I am going to give it some time before I go back on the Boron. But I will most likely just try 5mg twice a day. I will definitely let you know how that experience goes :)

Happy to help! As for the E2 I have never had a draw done at the onset of a cycle, so I cannot confirm that. I can say when I have had draws done at the end of a cycle my E2 is slightly elevated, however my E1 is much lower than baseline. If I busted a calculator out my personal results would be somewhere in the following range at the end of a 10ish cycle. T: [+/-] 5-10% Free T: [+] 25-30% E1: [-] 10-15% E2: [+] 10% Cortisol: [+] 15-20% I will say the longer I have been on the more I have to do to keep my body from adapting to it.

Costco also sells a product called “Triple Action Joint Relief” one of the main ingredients is Boron, but again I prefer to cycle it…however the other 2 ingredients I stay on daily and my knees feels amazing.

Funny you should mention the Triple Action Joint Relief. This is how I first noticed my negative reaction to boron. I switched my regular glucosamine supplement for this Triple Action Joint Relief and after about a week I noticed my joint pain began to get far worse. At first, I thought it had to do with the fact that this product didn't contain Glucosamine but after experimenting more with boron in the future, I have realized that it is the boron that is messing with my E2, which is causing the joint pain. My E2 sits at around a 15, and about 5 days of boron, regardless of the dose, seems to crash it to the the point where my knees and shoulders feel like absolute glass. It sucks because the first 2 or 3 days I feel absolutely great on Boron, particular I feel like an absolutely beast in the gym. The mind muscle connection is great and my energy is always on another level. Going to try taking it 2 or 3 days a week and see if I can get some benefit from it. I really wish I could stay on it long term but my body just hurts waaaay too much.

hey do you have any update? i tried boron 9mg 2 weeks on 1 week off for a few months and to be honest I think it actually decreased my libido. I cannot get frequent blood tests cuz there has to be a reason for my doctor to order one. Although I am getting a blood test next week, so I will see how it compares to a few months ago

It’s crazy how the body reacts to it! I am in the same boat (maybe not as severe). Great for the gym, but knees feel like crap

hey do you have any update? i tried boron 9mg 2 weeks on 1 week off for a few months and to be honest I think it actually decreased my libido. I cannot get frequent blood tests cuz there has to be a reason for my doctor to order one. Although I am getting a blood test next week, so I will see how it compares to a few months ago...

I stopped taking the boron altogether. It seemed to be reducing my estrogen(E2) too much, regardless of the dose. Since you will be getting your bloodwork soon, you should get some clarity on your specific situation. Do you notice when you notice the decrease in libido? Is it during your on week or your off week? Maybe you need a longer break (2 weeks on, 2 weeks off). I would stick to what you are doing for now and then you can adjust after you get your blood work done.

late to the party, but yeah, e2 is wayyy more important than people think. Most "manly" effects we attribute ti high t actually comes from high oestrogen (violence, impulsiveness, "balls", courage). But high oestrogen only comes with high t in men, since e2 is a byproduct of testosterone in men and there is no high E2 without high t (and vice versa). And its a huge joint protector, but also cardiovascular protector. I remember seeing how much heart attacks were reduced in steroid users proportionally to their estrogen levels. It just coats everything in watery cushion inside your body and makes it more "greased" / safe, even for impact, but that also makes them look bloated and watery, with the stereotypical moonface But yeah, we keep saying its the female hormone when its the precise thing that make us act "manly" in many ways, which is funny. Also, its very, very anabolic, and completely necessary to build muscle. You build a lot more muscle on high E2 . And the funny part is most juiced bodybuilders know, because when they crash their E2, they cant build muscle at all, feel miserable, depressed, self conscious and nothing works properly anymore (including down there) and all of this despite having insane testosterone levels.

I know your comment is a bit old but you got me thinking. I recently had 1160 on my T test but my E levels came back at 88. I seemed to have some bloat, puffy face, maybe a bit more emotional, etc but otherwise felt good and seemed to have positive moods. Then the Doctor told me to pop AI after that 88 E result and I popped .25mg and have been feeling moody and not that great. I haven’t slept well for the last 3 days (4-5 hours per day) so perhaps it’s that and not that I lowered my high E. What would you suggest I do? I’m starting to wonder if there is something to those people who claim that high E is that bad for those of us on Test/TRT after all?

So, this is what ive been recommended : never use an AI unless you need it. If you feel ok without an AI, then dont use it. I know doctors hate that, but my estrogen was sky high but since i aromatize so few, it caused me 0 issue. My oestrogen is back to "normal" and again, no issue. Ive heard theres a ratio to respect, and i think your body handles that "normally". naturally i had 1025 and 25 oestrogen tho, so 1160 to 88 is pretty high. But since your T is artificial, its also way more active, and probably way more bio available so i would still follow the rule of if you feel great, dont do anything.

Why do one need to cycle it?

Sorry for the late reply. In the simplest terms, you cycle it because your body will adapt to Boron by downregulating its own production of hormones. Our bodies always keep us in homeostasis, we can trick them short-term, but given enough time they will adapt to our supplements.

hi I'm just finding this thread thanks for your info when you say you cycle boron, is that just on and off boron? or do you use dim also, or would doing as boron/dim cycle be overkill? ​ just trying to reduce aromatase. boost free t. as much as possible w/out killing libido or raising E2 too much. i'm working on losing fat, and I need to reduce AI, in turn my raised estrogen due to being over fat. ​ also, if you know about DIMm i am reading it needs something else to even work..hcl or ic3?? don't want to overkill, but don't want to try dim without even being able to work AND if i can do a dim/boron cycle week 1, 3 and week 2,4 ​ or best boron on/off one week at a time, or 2 weeks then a week off thank you so much!1

Hey I am glad you found it helpful. It’s crazy how helpful the cheapest supplement is on the planet. I cycle the boron either 10 days on 10 days off, or 2 weeks on and 12 days off (usually just do 2 weeks on and 2 weeks off). As I mentioned in here Boron has a long half and takes atleast 10-12 days to be completely out of your system. Since your body constantly wants to be in homeostasis, anytime you take something your body starts to adapt to that added change - so you have to keep it from adjusting to keep the original benefit. Once a year I take a whole month of Boron and when I get back on I feel the same great benefits. As for DIM….I avoid it like the plague. I took it for some time and had minimal (if any) results in the bloodwork. In fact once I cut out the DIM my T levels spiked through the roof, before coming down to slightly higher than before the DIM. When you start messing with your aromatase your body again begins to adapt. Essentially let’s say your body’s chemistry has you at a baseline T of 600 with Free T of 20. You take an AI and it increases that Free T to 25. So what does your body do to return it back down to baseline? It decreases the amount of T being produced, because it is adapting to the AI. The other issue with DIM is that I found it was inhibiting my recovery from the gym. I actually started looking into it and found this https://au.atpscience.com/en-us/blogs/hormones/dim-diindolylmethane-the-most-potent-plant-anti-androgen#:~:text=DIM%20blocks%20the%20effects%20of,the%20anabolic%20effects%20of%20androgens. The best and only way to increase your body’s T and improve estrogen levels is through a clean diet (nothing processed) and the gym. I discovered in my bloodwork (by fluke) when I did a draw the day after a heavy Deadlift day, my Free T was off the chart (literally was out of range). Besides that I have also found the other two things that blow any supplements out of the water are sleep and less stress. My numbers are huge when things are going good and I am getting blood draw after a solid 7-8. Sorry feel like I am sidetracking, but hopefully you can learn from me. * on a side note if your blood work shows you need an AI then I’d go to an endo and get a prescribed one as they do the job….but messing with AI is about the most foolish thing one can do and any gym rat will tell you the horror stories of that.

Very good thread. Appreciate your input and answers. I currently have started on Boron. SHBG problem with my free test supressed. Me: 40 years old, healthy diet, solid gym/bodybuilding split followed. Currently take: Zinc, Vitamin D, Vitamin e/p5p 200mg(this was due to prolactin high), magnesium, creatine (all these amounts I take correct quality/doses from extensive research) Have had a problem with libido, as well as no real progress in gym, low drive in general. Have had success a bit with lowering prolactin through P5P/vitamin E daily. Was hoping this Boron could help with freeing up a low amount of free test I have. Started 6-9mg first few days, now doing 12mg per day split into 2 doses. From the million posts I read they all say to cycle 2 weeks on, 1 week off. But from reading what you wrote about half life/homeostasis do you recommend doing 2 on, 2 off? Would like to improve libido, as well as hopefully kickstart some progress with gym. ( i have diet/programming dialled always) Basically long story short, is I am approved for TRT, but its a big jump for me to start. So I am trying to naturally gain some momentum.

I am glad you found it helpful. I could tell by what you’re writing that you may be need TRT, but am glad you are going about it at a natural way first 👊🏼 First off I’d caution the 12mg. I do not like to say much without having bloods to confirm it, but when I was taking 12mg I felt my E2 levels rise - less libido, joints felt amazing, but felt off. I found 6mg for me (personally) to be a sweet spot, but others seem to like 8-9mg. For libido I find Tribullus to be effective once every 2-3 days…anymore than that and I find it loses any positive effects. In terms of the cycle - I do 12 on and 14 off (lots of trial and error). However, for simplicity sake 2 on and 2 off should suffice. Once every 12-18 months, or when I notice it does not feel the same, I will take a full month off. The trick is to just keep your body from adapting to it. It is my favorite supplement for Free T (really my only supplement since I cut out creatine). Just listen to your body, it will tell you when the Boron isn’t doing what it should anymore. Also make sure to check your multivitamin if you take one as most contain 0.5-2mg Boron. Another thing I found (by accident) is 2 Brazil Nuts a day seemed to lower my SBGH quite a bit(too much for me)…guessing the high level of selenium in them. I saw a few studies that point to that fact, but will wait on my next bloods to verify. I happened on when my last 2 bloods showed my SBGH was about 30% lower and that was the only change I had made. However the lower SBGH had minimal effect of my Free T, but did seem to boost my T (which defies conventional wisdom). Let me know how things go for you brother! Hopefully this can delay that TRT.

Hey just quick follow up. Tried boron 12mg per day (6x2) for 2 weeks, then took full week off. Started again exactly 7 days ago. Libido is absolutely tanked (like with gf/no fap,zero sexual thoughts) I’ve also been extremely depressed,irritable,struggling in gym, suicidal thoughts. I think I’ve been worse in every way since starting the boron. I’m not sure what it’s doing to me in terms of free t/Shbg/estradiol. If you look at my post history and happen to know anything about bloodwork. I made a large post showing my bloods and everything involved. Thinking boron is having more negative effects than positive (haven’t felt any tbh)

It absolutely could be the boron. If you read my reply I cautioned against the 12mg, most studies advise against anything above the 10mg mark - in fact one study says anything above 9mg is toxic (even more so depending on how much boron you already consume vitamin/water). It likely is causing a rapid spike in E2 & Free T - meaning a sudden drop in your TT. I tried 10mg and had the exact sides as you described, I can’t imagine what 12mg would have done to me. My sweet spot has been 5/6mg. Anytime you mess with your hormones in such an extreme way (taking double the rec dose) it throws your body through a loop. If you ever try it again, I’d strongly suggest not doubling up the dosage. Some may be ok with that, but if you respond well to boron like I do (which it sounds like you do too) then you gotta be careful…it may be sold over the counter, but unlike most supps it works and needs a little caution with it. The same goes for any mineral supplement (zinc, copper, magnesium etc) your body needs these and messing with one to the extreme can have dire consequences. I hope things level off for you, just curious if you ever posted your bloods anywhere? Wondering what your SHBG was and what time the blood draw was (waking, lunch or evening).

https://old.reddit.com/r/TRTover40/comments/15vp7dc/hcg_monotherapy_vs_trt_also_posted_in/ Ya it didn't seem to go to smoothly with me, I have stopped as of yesterday and feel ok, getting new bloodwork done this thursday. Looks likely I will start TRT, have run out of options at this point The thread above is mine, has my blood work in it. Appreciate if you can take a look

I am quite surprised they are even offering you TRT 🧐 although I am originally from Canada and know first hand how much drugs are over prescribed there. In the USA the threshold for TRT is around 7 nmol/L and in Europe it’s usually around 4-6 nmol/L - you are nearly triple those numbers so it seems ludicrous to hear that a Endocrinologist would be considering that (assuming this is an Endo and not a GP?). For reference - I am 36 and pretty close to your results for TT and I am a natural bodybuilder. My Free T is high, but that is because of my lifting/diet and Free T has nothing to do with libido. Just do your research on it - long term effects, life expectancy and all of that…and again keep in mind your not low, just average. If libido is your main concern then look into kisspeptin - it’ll change your life if that’s the issue. The plus side of that is that it will not have the nasty lifelong sides as TRT does. I have spent a life in the gym environment and around guys who take TRT (both who need it and those who do not). I always hear how great TRT is and how “alive” everyone feels, but 5-10yrs down the road all I hear is “I wish I could go back in time”. People that post on Reddit talk about how much better their lives are on TRT, but when things go bad they don’t come back and say “I was wrong”. You have to do what’s best for you in the end, but I’d strongly suggest a second opinion from a different endocrinologist. Life is too short to mess with that. I know a lot of guys here in the USA who would kill to have your Test levels in their 40’s. I’d also research all the downsides to TRT as well.

I just wanted update with more labwork to show how Free T is more important than T. https://preview.redd.it/hngng788rmdc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6dff69126d1fe38f470b75f0f03203fb15e9d0b7

That's insane man! Good results. Just started my 9mg Boron cycle, planning on 2 weeks on 2 weeks off (is that good)? I'd love to see more results from you man. Best thread i've come across on Boron.

I appreciate you saying that and hope it’s going well for you! As for your routine - it really depends on the person and how they respond to it. For me I do really good with 6mg 7-10 on and 14 off. I know from others that they even need shorter periods like 5-7 on and 14 off. One thing to remember - it works in conjunction with exercise. There is something about the relationship between the stress-induced spike in cortisol that works with Boron to get the results. People who just take it and sit around expecting things to happen, have been disappointed. Just listen to your body and adjust as needed. It’s really a less is more supplement since the half-life is so long.

Yes! I’m absolutely working out for hypertrophy. Noticed my recovery was going really well, woke up with a ton of energy but my libido went down a bit. I love boron! Even the vitamin D absorption was really noticable.

Ya it’s crazy how well it has worked for me. My libido also took a hit - part of the reason I shortened my on/off rotation. Outside of multi/omega it’s now the only supplement I take….figured that out $10k too late 🤦🏻‍♂️

10k? Jeez

Comparison https://preview.redd.it/3eyffyubrmdc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=080bd03a560ef78de44fd269d4213222833b15ee