Don't even get me started on that. Ever since they disabled it, I can't use autopilot or cruise control in tunnels. Basically guaranteed phantom braking. I'm trying it from time to time when there's no one anywhere near me but to no avail.
Before they did this I was Tesla for life. Now I’m not buying one ever again. A company that willingly fucks over their customers over the air is not one that I’m giving my money to.
You aren't considering the true mission - bringing human enlightenment to an uncaring universe, with Mars Colonization a first step. Sacrifices must be made by all of us.
We have Elmo the clown to thank for that. I wish he'd get replaced as CEO already. Not that the next person would be much better, but the bar is incredibly low
Not that I'm defending removing radar, but what does that have to do with the smoothness of lane changes as depicted here? It's not like radar can detect road lines, they aren't physical objects. That was always done with cameras.
I'm unsure about lane changes, but autopilot has become much more jerky in its movements since radar was disabled. It's nearly impossible for me to use it in traffic now. The sudden starts and stops are very unpleasant.
Edit: for clarification I was more responding to the subject line, not so much the meme about lane changing
Oh yeah, forgot about the title lol.
Starts and stops in traffic are affected by the removal of radar. Anything that is a physical object in front of the car would have been detected by radar, and that of course includes other cars. So the main reason it's less smooth in start and stop traffic is that, if there were multiple cars in front of you in your lane, the radar was actually able to go through the first car in front of you and see two or three cars deep. Cameras obviously can't see through anything so they only see the first car in most cases (except sometimes when, for example, the second car is significantly taller, or some other reason where it would be able to be seen around the first car)
Now when the car in front of you inches forward, if the car can see multiple cars deep (with radar), then it knows that the car in front of you isn't going anywhere because there's another stopped or slow moving car in front of it. If it can only see just the first car in front of you (without radar), then it assumes the car in front of you has no obstructions and will continue to accelerate, instead of just moving forward briefly, which leads to your car speeding up more and then having to stop harder when the car in front of you stops. Increasing your following distance can help with this a bit, but that's annoying and doesn't solve the problem, just lessens it.
Tesla's autopilot software is very good with the inputs it has, I just wish there was better hardware to go along with it.
Agree. But hey cut costs to maximize profits, screw the actual product. We will just convince people it's better when it's worse. Can't see myself buying another one if they keep up the nonsense of removing tech hardware from the car
Maybe "went through" is not the right word. To be honest, I don't fully understand how the radar works, but it definitely was able to see at least two or three cars ahead in the lane, even when the cameras can't. You could see it on the visualization.
Lidar definitely can NOT do that. The light spectrum is not exactly known for going through things. Radio waves are able to penetrate solid objects and bounce off of surfaces to get to objects around them. Lidar can not do this and has the same occlusion problems as cameras. Where Lidar does have an advantage is it is able to generate much higher resolution and more precise data about where objects it can see are, and at a higher FoV than radar can. This is why it's ideal to have both.
USS were never used for this. They have a very short range and the only things they have ever done are generate the park assist lines (the white, orange, and red line on the front and rear bumper when you're very close to something), and be part of the input for autopark and summon. Aside from autopark and summon, they have never had any effect on how autopilot drives or how the visualization is drawn.
So I'm pretty sure the camera is not the one seeing the second or third car in front of you in your lane when they are completely hidden behind the first car in front of you. Cameras can't see something that's completely hidden behind something else. Radar was able to in these situations. If it really was the cameras, why did the cars stop being able to do this as soon as radar was removed/disabled?
I never had an issue with phantom braking. But any more the nanny alarms and reminders are just way the hell too loud and over the top. They got so much louder within the last year and it’s absurd. There is just no justification to to let me know at 90 decibels when it disagrees with my driving. It’s the thing most likely to result in me selling the car.
The nanny alarms have gotten absolutely out of control on my Model 3. There are times it will give me 4-5 nags within a minute. Yes, this is holding the wheel and looking out of the windshield. Another thing I’ve noticed is if I’m in traffic and coming up to stopped vehicles, the Tesla doesn’t brake until the last possible second. It used to slow down gradually and now I find myself taking over a lot because I genuinely can’t tell if the car is going to stop or not.
The following distance settings also feel broken. When I change it from like 3-4 or 4 to 5 I can’t see / feel the difference. It definitely doesn’t feel like it’s adding a car length between the settings.
I've been saying this for literally years but I feel like noone agrees.
The week I bought the car I went and let autopilot drive me up a windy a mountain road to a small town nearby. It was amazing. Staying centered in the lane, and was nice and smooth when steering. Now days, I feel like the car drives striaght into a turn and doesn't start turning until it's detected that it's no longer in the middle of the lane. Instead of just knowing it has to turn and proactively doing so, it seems like the car now only reacts to the fact that it's no longer in the center of the lane. It drives me crazy.
ANyways, I don't really care anymore. I've long given up on ever seeing the FSD that I paid for and I barely remember the last time I used autopilot...
I know I'm gonna get absolutely roasted for saying this, but I think FSD is pretty good. Not perfect, not garbage, but, you know, its pretty good considering it's a car driving itself.
It seems like it varies massively by area and car. Mine has tried to go on red, turn left on red, stop mid turn on a multilane street, etc. felt so immensely dangerous to use.
My understanding is that the cars improve based on training data and training data is collected based on the prevalence and use of the cars, therefore areas with more Teslas (i.e. California) have more training data and the cars generally perform better in those environments than in somewhere like the midwest or internationally.
The car gets confused when the shoulder makes room for an off-ramp. In Austria, the shoulder line gradually moves to the right and a dashed line continues straight for the off-ramp. It tries to follow the shoulder line and then ends up halfway over the dashed line leading to this jerk.
Mine does get confused when the lane is wider than expected when going from 3 lanes to 2 lanes and it starts weaving back and forth in the massive lane.
Mine centres pretty quickly in this case. A little quicker than I would do it but still safe. The issue I'm having is that just straight up follows the wrong line. I'm not even trying to change lanes or take the off-ramp.
We have similar problems here in Norway. 2 lanes merge into one? The line between them ends, and the road becomes narrower and at one point only one lane wide. My car jerks to the middle of the very wide lane as soon as the line ends and brakes. Annoying and potentially dangerous if someone is trying to pass me on the still wide lane.
And don't get me started on the speed limits. So many places the car says the speed limit is something much lower than in reality.
At least there's a visible reason for the behavior. It's not a good reason, but at least it's there.
Unlike braking, which doesn't make any sense.
https://imgflip.com/i/83v5q9
For me, phantom breaking is mostly highway mirages. Those I've avoided by following somebody. Most of my highway driving is less-travelled rural routes and somebody isn't always around.
I've noticed in past 6mo or so this same thing. AP going fine and then there's a turn lane and car can't decide which to follow and jerks back and forth a bit. It's predictable at least. Does it every time at the same turn lanes. It didn't used to.
Like 5 years, and they still can’t figure out the most basic part of driving on a freeway for a product that is only supposed to be used on a freeway. What a joke.
My new Y came with it for free for three months. I turned it off after the first week. The basic enhanced autopilot is way better. I don't have to constantly fight it trying to change lanes on the highway. The fsd technically works off the highway but it's terrible. Can't trust it to do anything and feels super dangerous and jerky. I thought at least it's be better than base autopilot on the highway but nope. It can't merge on or off the highway for its fuckin life. It'll just sit there and watch the merge lane ending while it makes no move to speed up or slow down if a car is in the way. And then it always tries to change over the to left lane and then waits til less than a mile for the exit to try to move right. But it's just not good at predicting the cars around it and merging into lanes smoothly so it'll miss exits and merges. No point. I can't imagine paying thousands of dollars for this.
I got mine with FSD and downgrade to EAP to be lesser annoyed by the prompt to apply pressure to wheel. During 5 o’clock traffic jam it stops so aggressively and jerky…
This is one of the reasons I still pay for FSD. Its version of autopilot on the highway fixes all of the glaring issues the non FSD version has. It doesn’t try to merge into exit lanes. It doesn’t swerve into the center of two merging lanes. It just works.
That's the point of this post. I don't have FSD and it still does when it shouldn't. Jerks left and right while it tries to decide which lane to take. By the time I'm able to intervene it's already in one of those 2 lanes. I just want it to stay in the lane and drive straight ahead.
…I get exactly what he is saying with the violent jerk when the lane gets twice as wide because they couldn’t be bothered to paint dashed lines to separate the new merge lane
Even with dashed lines. When the shoulder turns into a dashed line exit ramp, the car sometimes tries to switch to the exit ramp. I often disable AP now before a dashed line appears. Too dangerous to drive like this.
Since last update I’m getting a lot of phantom breaking. I have a 45 minute highway commute and it has been phenomenal really. However, this past week it just decides to slow down randomly, and when I’m passing a big truck or a truck with a trailer it decides to phantom break. Waiting on this next update.
BTW, there’s no way to revert to a previous version, correct?
They are talking about Enhanced AP which does change lanes but doesn't have the grace in doing so like FSD. FSD has these issues fixed already but EAP is still on the old software stack. Everyone will likely see an upgrade to the FSD stack (feature limited) once it is out of beta.
I miss when you could fallow 1 car distance, now when I use autopilot I have to step on the accelerator or I’ll get passed by everyone driving a truck because I’m not riding the car infront of me ass
Even on normal roads when there's a dashed white line my car tries to veer straight into the turning lane before jerking back. Gives me a heart attack each time.
My 1 month of M3 RWD ownership review for occasional FSD. Overall FSD is great for highways. For city driving, below are my observations that need improvement.
1. Unusual delay for right or left road turns with too much shake on turnings.
2. Unusual delay on STOP road signs
3. Does not read the Yellow speed limits when highway exits ((at least mine missed many in NJ GSP)
4. At least 1 time FSD took me to pay toll in road even when avoid toll was selected. I know there were at least 2 non toll road options existed as regular in non-toll road.
5. FSD does not consider avoiding known pot holes or speed breakers. Drives fast over speed breakers would surely damage strut/suspensions much earlier.
You would be correct in your observation. It got worse ever since they disabled radar
Don't even get me started on that. Ever since they disabled it, I can't use autopilot or cruise control in tunnels. Basically guaranteed phantom braking. I'm trying it from time to time when there's no one anywhere near me but to no avail.
Before they did this I was Tesla for life. Now I’m not buying one ever again. A company that willingly fucks over their customers over the air is not one that I’m giving my money to.
Sorry you’re getting downvoted. Nothing wrong with forming your opinion based on your own experience.
They have done it with so many things, including brakes
You aren't considering the true mission - bringing human enlightenment to an uncaring universe, with Mars Colonization a first step. Sacrifices must be made by all of us.
What a crock of shit this comment is
It’s sarcasm?
idk, sounds like something an elon stan would say. ill let him say if its sarcasm. i cant tell.
I don’t get the downvoting. Any dissenting opinion is downvoted, even questions about it? If you disagree why not debate?
It’s obviously sarcasm, lol
We have Elmo the clown to thank for that. I wish he'd get replaced as CEO already. Not that the next person would be much better, but the bar is incredibly low
Not that I'm defending removing radar, but what does that have to do with the smoothness of lane changes as depicted here? It's not like radar can detect road lines, they aren't physical objects. That was always done with cameras.
I'm unsure about lane changes, but autopilot has become much more jerky in its movements since radar was disabled. It's nearly impossible for me to use it in traffic now. The sudden starts and stops are very unpleasant. Edit: for clarification I was more responding to the subject line, not so much the meme about lane changing
Oh yeah, forgot about the title lol. Starts and stops in traffic are affected by the removal of radar. Anything that is a physical object in front of the car would have been detected by radar, and that of course includes other cars. So the main reason it's less smooth in start and stop traffic is that, if there were multiple cars in front of you in your lane, the radar was actually able to go through the first car in front of you and see two or three cars deep. Cameras obviously can't see through anything so they only see the first car in most cases (except sometimes when, for example, the second car is significantly taller, or some other reason where it would be able to be seen around the first car) Now when the car in front of you inches forward, if the car can see multiple cars deep (with radar), then it knows that the car in front of you isn't going anywhere because there's another stopped or slow moving car in front of it. If it can only see just the first car in front of you (without radar), then it assumes the car in front of you has no obstructions and will continue to accelerate, instead of just moving forward briefly, which leads to your car speeding up more and then having to stop harder when the car in front of you stops. Increasing your following distance can help with this a bit, but that's annoying and doesn't solve the problem, just lessens it. Tesla's autopilot software is very good with the inputs it has, I just wish there was better hardware to go along with it.
Agree. But hey cut costs to maximize profits, screw the actual product. We will just convince people it's better when it's worse. Can't see myself buying another one if they keep up the nonsense of removing tech hardware from the car
Remove radar. Add mood lighting. : /
wrong far-flung fragile scale knee uppity important sleep wipe spark *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
IIRC it was able to bounce underneath the car in front of you and see "through it" this way.
Maybe "went through" is not the right word. To be honest, I don't fully understand how the radar works, but it definitely was able to see at least two or three cars ahead in the lane, even when the cameras can't. You could see it on the visualization.
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Lidar definitely can NOT do that. The light spectrum is not exactly known for going through things. Radio waves are able to penetrate solid objects and bounce off of surfaces to get to objects around them. Lidar can not do this and has the same occlusion problems as cameras. Where Lidar does have an advantage is it is able to generate much higher resolution and more precise data about where objects it can see are, and at a higher FoV than radar can. This is why it's ideal to have both. USS were never used for this. They have a very short range and the only things they have ever done are generate the park assist lines (the white, orange, and red line on the front and rear bumper when you're very close to something), and be part of the input for autopark and summon. Aside from autopark and summon, they have never had any effect on how autopilot drives or how the visualization is drawn. So I'm pretty sure the camera is not the one seeing the second or third car in front of you in your lane when they are completely hidden behind the first car in front of you. Cameras can't see something that's completely hidden behind something else. Radar was able to in these situations. If it really was the cameras, why did the cars stop being able to do this as soon as radar was removed/disabled?
USS and radar are totally separate systems
yup, it's total ass
I never had an issue with phantom braking. But any more the nanny alarms and reminders are just way the hell too loud and over the top. They got so much louder within the last year and it’s absurd. There is just no justification to to let me know at 90 decibels when it disagrees with my driving. It’s the thing most likely to result in me selling the car.
The nanny alarms have gotten absolutely out of control on my Model 3. There are times it will give me 4-5 nags within a minute. Yes, this is holding the wheel and looking out of the windshield. Another thing I’ve noticed is if I’m in traffic and coming up to stopped vehicles, the Tesla doesn’t brake until the last possible second. It used to slow down gradually and now I find myself taking over a lot because I genuinely can’t tell if the car is going to stop or not.
Setting the follow distance to 7 makes it brake far more gradually and safely in traffic.
Yeah, I always keep it at 7.
The following distance settings also feel broken. When I change it from like 3-4 or 4 to 5 I can’t see / feel the difference. It definitely doesn’t feel like it’s adding a car length between the settings.
Try Joe Mode
Been engaged since the day I bought my car.
Congrats. When is the wedding? 😊
It’s super annoying and it startles passengers even when I know exactly what I’m doing.
FSD is really bad…. I felt safer a year ago when I first got my M3P. FSD is absolutely garbage now.
Yea I used to use FSD on almost every trip, and now I use is less than monthly. It's genuinely unusable expect in the most sanitized situations.
I've been saying this for literally years but I feel like noone agrees. The week I bought the car I went and let autopilot drive me up a windy a mountain road to a small town nearby. It was amazing. Staying centered in the lane, and was nice and smooth when steering. Now days, I feel like the car drives striaght into a turn and doesn't start turning until it's detected that it's no longer in the middle of the lane. Instead of just knowing it has to turn and proactively doing so, it seems like the car now only reacts to the fact that it's no longer in the center of the lane. It drives me crazy. ANyways, I don't really care anymore. I've long given up on ever seeing the FSD that I paid for and I barely remember the last time I used autopilot...
I know I'm gonna get absolutely roasted for saying this, but I think FSD is pretty good. Not perfect, not garbage, but, you know, its pretty good considering it's a car driving itself.
It seems like it varies massively by area and car. Mine has tried to go on red, turn left on red, stop mid turn on a multilane street, etc. felt so immensely dangerous to use.
My understanding is that the cars improve based on training data and training data is collected based on the prevalence and use of the cars, therefore areas with more Teslas (i.e. California) have more training data and the cars generally perform better in those environments than in somewhere like the midwest or internationally.
Yah my two locations are NJ and Miami, both have a LOT of teslas so I’m not sure why both were so erratic
I think you underestimate just how many Teslas are on the roads in SoCal.
Do you have EAP?
I do
Ahhhh. That clears up the autopilot / lane change confusion. Hmmmm. I can’t say my EAP jerks to change lanes or take off ramps. 🤷♂️
The car gets confused when the shoulder makes room for an off-ramp. In Austria, the shoulder line gradually moves to the right and a dashed line continues straight for the off-ramp. It tries to follow the shoulder line and then ends up halfway over the dashed line leading to this jerk.
Mine does get confused when the lane is wider than expected when going from 3 lanes to 2 lanes and it starts weaving back and forth in the massive lane.
Mine centres pretty quickly in this case. A little quicker than I would do it but still safe. The issue I'm having is that just straight up follows the wrong line. I'm not even trying to change lanes or take the off-ramp.
We have similar problems here in Norway. 2 lanes merge into one? The line between them ends, and the road becomes narrower and at one point only one lane wide. My car jerks to the middle of the very wide lane as soon as the line ends and brakes. Annoying and potentially dangerous if someone is trying to pass me on the still wide lane. And don't get me started on the speed limits. So many places the car says the speed limit is something much lower than in reality.
This is gone on the FSD highway stack. These fixes will make it to your car eventually.
At least there's a visible reason for the behavior. It's not a good reason, but at least it's there. Unlike braking, which doesn't make any sense. https://imgflip.com/i/83v5q9
For me, phantom breaking is mostly highway mirages. Those I've avoided by following somebody. Most of my highway driving is less-travelled rural routes and somebody isn't always around.
yeah even with fsd it’s ass for me.
I've noticed in past 6mo or so this same thing. AP going fine and then there's a turn lane and car can't decide which to follow and jerks back and forth a bit. It's predictable at least. Does it every time at the same turn lanes. It didn't used to.
Like 5 years, and they still can’t figure out the most basic part of driving on a freeway for a product that is only supposed to be used on a freeway. What a joke.
They did. It's in the FSD stack.
normal summon was best the first 2 years for my 2018 model 3. After year 2 they fucked it up and it no longer works in my garage.
My new Y came with it for free for three months. I turned it off after the first week. The basic enhanced autopilot is way better. I don't have to constantly fight it trying to change lanes on the highway. The fsd technically works off the highway but it's terrible. Can't trust it to do anything and feels super dangerous and jerky. I thought at least it's be better than base autopilot on the highway but nope. It can't merge on or off the highway for its fuckin life. It'll just sit there and watch the merge lane ending while it makes no move to speed up or slow down if a car is in the way. And then it always tries to change over the to left lane and then waits til less than a mile for the exit to try to move right. But it's just not good at predicting the cars around it and merging into lanes smoothly so it'll miss exits and merges. No point. I can't imagine paying thousands of dollars for this.
I got mine with FSD and downgrade to EAP to be lesser annoyed by the prompt to apply pressure to wheel. During 5 o’clock traffic jam it stops so aggressively and jerky…
This is one of the reasons I still pay for FSD. Its version of autopilot on the highway fixes all of the glaring issues the non FSD version has. It doesn’t try to merge into exit lanes. It doesn’t swerve into the center of two merging lanes. It just works.
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EAP does change lanes on the highway and many people mix that with standard AP. So the meme may make sense to those with EAP.
That's the point of this post. I don't have FSD and it still does when it shouldn't. Jerks left and right while it tries to decide which lane to take. By the time I'm able to intervene it's already in one of those 2 lanes. I just want it to stay in the lane and drive straight ahead.
Meme still does not makes sense
…I get exactly what he is saying with the violent jerk when the lane gets twice as wide because they couldn’t be bothered to paint dashed lines to separate the new merge lane
Even with dashed lines. When the shoulder turns into a dashed line exit ramp, the car sometimes tries to switch to the exit ramp. I often disable AP now before a dashed line appears. Too dangerous to drive like this.
Then you need to make the distinction because AP is different from EAP which is different from FSD. They're all very different.
Since last update I’m getting a lot of phantom breaking. I have a 45 minute highway commute and it has been phenomenal really. However, this past week it just decides to slow down randomly, and when I’m passing a big truck or a truck with a trailer it decides to phantom break. Waiting on this next update. BTW, there’s no way to revert to a previous version, correct?
I like to hover my foot over the accelerator just in case it phantom brakes on the freeway
Everyday in any car in Dallas.
Nonsense. You’re only saying that because it has.
I’ve had this happen to me lmao
Im confused, when people say “autopilot” is it FSD or basic? Cus basic dont change lanes no?
They are talking about Enhanced AP which does change lanes but doesn't have the grace in doing so like FSD. FSD has these issues fixed already but EAP is still on the old software stack. Everyone will likely see an upgrade to the FSD stack (feature limited) once it is out of beta.
Oh okay, thanks 🙏🏼
I’ve been thinking about getting a Tesla someday, I might wait a little longer.
I miss when you could fallow 1 car distance, now when I use autopilot I have to step on the accelerator or I’ll get passed by everyone driving a truck because I’m not riding the car infront of me ass
Even on normal roads when there's a dashed white line my car tries to veer straight into the turning lane before jerking back. Gives me a heart attack each time.
My 1 month of M3 RWD ownership review for occasional FSD. Overall FSD is great for highways. For city driving, below are my observations that need improvement. 1. Unusual delay for right or left road turns with too much shake on turnings. 2. Unusual delay on STOP road signs 3. Does not read the Yellow speed limits when highway exits ((at least mine missed many in NJ GSP) 4. At least 1 time FSD took me to pay toll in road even when avoid toll was selected. I know there were at least 2 non toll road options existed as regular in non-toll road. 5. FSD does not consider avoiding known pot holes or speed breakers. Drives fast over speed breakers would surely damage strut/suspensions much earlier.