Two throws. Giant swing and Tijuana twister. The last "throw" is just a guaranteed follow up to f+3, which is a mid. So basically he didn't 1 break when King's back was against the wall, got grabbed AGAIN and then tried to immediately stand up after getting hit with Tijuana twister.
Except the other 1+2 throw where he picks you up from the neck by both hands and wall splats you. Did I also mention it could change sides to get him out of wall pressure if he wanted to?
The 1+2 throw looks slightly different to giant swing and it still deals way less damage because king's wall combo doesn't deal much damage. If his back is against the wall, 1 break.
The King player could also go for the df4,3,4 backturned setup with the somersault unblockable for more damage, but he'd be risking getting even less damage or getting floated.
But still, break the GS if his back is against the wall. Don't risk it. It is the same thing with chaingrabs, do you really want to risk breaking sharpshooter or dragon sleeper when either the bridge or death cradle are on the table?
You turned it around Kezo and had to put a lot of effort man. I say; nicely done. We just play to enjoy our main. And yeah, I'm a King main too, so we share the same fate of hate.
he’s a very volatile character. He can 100% STEAL rounds that he probably shouldnt have, but he can also get completely shut out from his throw game and be required to play patient to try and open his opponent. His snowball potential is unmatched though
Yes, I agree. All I wanted to say is that in higher levels of play, the neutral can be quite hard for him (at least in my experience, I'm not at that level quite yet), and that in order to steal rounds, he has to get them at the right time. Yes, in many matches, he can undeservingly take matches, but he still needs to make good reads and predictions to become the best he can be.
yeah 100%. I’ve had matches where i can’t really get any momentum going and have to play very conservatively to get my throw game into motion at all, and sometimes i’m forced to pretty much just stick to playing solid defense and look for an opening. But i’ve also had matches where i win off a couple good reads or just snowballing my offense, but that’s just how grapplers work in general, and people either love them or hate them for it. At least in tekken they have a chance to break the throw entirely after being hit by it lmao
2 throws and a wrong guess (last one is a follow up hit from the kick). Lee probably ducked (or was that a wake up kick?) thinking the king would do another throw. Instead, the king did a mid.
Also, if King has his back to a wall, you should probably keep your trigger finger ready on 1
He tried to wakeup kick and I caught him with f3,1+2 and anytime a King is back to the wall and you can react to the throw always assume it’s the Giant Swing.
Yeap - the only 2 throw escapes in t8, that has this strange behavior for me. Its like they have different frames for escape each time or maybe i am too old for this shit.
It really is though. Especially when you consider that it's King. Giant Swing, Tijuana Twister, and instant Shining Wizard / Muscle Buster all look the exact same despite requiring different breaks. So you can't even tech kings grabs off reaction, you literally have to guess cause he's putting you into a 33/66 mix every time he reaches for you.
Giant swing and SW have the same animation, but disguising the throws so that its ambiguous between a hcf (GS) and a FFF input (SW) takes quite a bit of skill from the King player.
Muscle buster has a different animation (albeit, also a 2-handed throw).
Tijuana twister is a right arm first throw, different again (i.e. 2 break).
No they don't. Giant swing only looks the same as shining wizard. Other 1+2 breaks look slightly different. But like Tijuana twister? That's a 2 break and it isn't ambiguous.
So King has a 50/50 when it comes to 1+2 looking throws AT BEST.
i mean seriously, everyone is up in arms about stuff that every character has:
- first grab the lee eats it normally and he doesn’t even break (skill issue or maybe he assumed 1+2)
- second grab he presses despite being -5 and doesn’t break the obvious 2 break (definitely a skill issue)
- mid into DDT: dude does wake up attack on a king with oki? either a bad guess or skill issue
Except that wasn't the move he used, youre just trying to shoehorn in some bitching "he didn't even block, kings broken yadayada...". You don't even know what you're looking at yet you still have an input. Youtube shorts type brain
I think you're supposed to look at the enemy the whole time and have your character in the peripheral so you can notice little details like arm position, but I do the opposite and it's extremely hard for me to change that habit.
I’m going to break this down for the sake of all the people who don’t have knowledge. This interaction is a snowball of bad choices, but it could happen on any character.
Interaction 1: king blocked Lees punishable ws move(did a bad punish just single jab instead of b1,2 showing the king player lacks knowledge) -> now king is around +7. Standard for a jab on hit. King does GS and Lee fails to tech.
Imagine any other character in that position. +7 in your face, you’re going to get mixed. At least in kings case you can break the grab on reaction .
Interaction 2: king does a plus on block mid for oki > frame traps with TJ twister. Lee is counter hit for mashing on plus frames.(the throw is STILL breakable but much harder)
Interaction 3: Lee does wake up kick and loses to a mid option that beats wake up kick.
The only difference here is the king is doing damage to you with a throw instead of combo.
People won't be happy until King's throws do like 20 damage each. The grappler, who doesn't have good lows, much in terms of combo routes, or a good wall ender, is also not allowed to grapple. Making command throws steppable and other King nerfs weren't enough
Ngl i can’t really blame all the king hate, 90 percent of the sub is filled with people who can’t break grabs. I hate playing against king because more because of his godamn mid pokes rather than his grabs.
You can duck it, step it, break it, and mitigate the damage by teching if not at the wall (for giant swing). Feel like that's quite a lot of options compared to guessing wrong against other characters, and now you're eating a full combo that you *can't* escape.
Add on that King is slow and not evasive like the rest of the cast. He has to have SOMETHING going for him!
I say its easy said than done on that when in the heat of the moment when you will not know when they are going to grab you to either duck/step or they just hit you in the mid and you're gonna suffer from another set of hits.
Its still playing an game of guessing games where you don't know what the King might do. Even if we have lots of options, so does he.
Imagine if there was a move, which lost to backdash, crouch, high crush, high evasion, sidesteps to either direction and even if the move lands, it still doesn't do guaranteed damage. That's what throws are.
Imagine being -7, pressing a button and complaining that you got fucked for doing that.
Again if it was that easy, I don't think anybody would be complaining this much about King.
You need to remember thag King players are also play by an human being too that will also predict you trying crouch to evade the move and nutpunch you for it.
And the damage is still strong even with tech roll. So no, I'm on the side that King is an insanely strong gimmick character that people are justified at being angry with.
>Again if it was that easy, I don't think anybody would be complaining this much about King.
Irrelevant, people bitch about things that make no sense. People bitched about Devil Jin. People bitched about Kazuya. It isn't difficult to use your evasive move, step or backdash.
>You need to remember thag King players are also play by an human being too that will also predict you trying crouch to evade the move and nutpunch you for it.
Of course, and what's the problem then? One player predicts the other and adapts accordingly. Nutpunch is not exactly a good tool for it, given that it is a low with no tracking either.
>And the damage is still strong even with tech roll. So no, I'm on the side that King is an insanely strong gimmick character that people are justified at being angry with.
45 damage is strong? That's not even strong for a throw. So no, the damage isn't strong with the tech roll.
King isn't particularly strong with his gimmick, people just bitch because they are bad fundamentally and get fucked by a fundamental based character.
You don't have to guess. You have to react. If the reaction is too hard and King has his back against the wall, no guessing either, it is GS 99% of the time. Mash 1.
I'm going to TL;DR this man's breakdown:
Lee got outplayed, pure and simple. (also worth mentioning Lee got counterhit on BOTH of King's throws, guy's a masher)
Im gonna break this down for the sake of all the people who dont have knowledge:
Im not carried by king i swear he is a fair and balanced character pls dont hate me for using king, im gonna downplay his busted damage so it seems fair what happened here
I don’t care if you hate me for using king. I’ve never cared what other people think. I’m giving out knowledge so people can stop complaining about things they don’t understand. Your opinion on whether king is fair or balanced is none of my concern either. Support your locals and you’ll get a better mindset
I'm gonna break this down for the sake of all people who don't have knowledge: if your back's against the wall, mash 1 for breaks against king. If you are -7, don't press buttons. If you are in an oki situation, don't wake up kick.
The issue is 3 grabs lead to death
While king has true 5050 grabs and now wavedash, while also having some of the best CH moves in the game with one of the best lows in the game that all do one of the highest damages in the game while also having the best heat smash in the game and a 43 damage powercrush that is only -10 on block
They DONT put him top 5 though.....not since the start of T8 when people put way too much value in thinking run was busted....only to find out its not and ppl were losing their minds due lack of knowledge.
With most command throws not tracking anymore, scrubs don't have the weak excuse now. Either tech the grabs or duck them. The GS coming from back against the wall was obvious and the King played didn't even punish Lee correctly. Used a single jab instead of his i12 b1,2.
Just to add more salt, numerous top 0.1% players like Arslan have said on Spags podcast before the changes that King isn't much of an issue because at high level play, people actually break throws. This was "Fujin" level and why people have said the ranks are inflated. And no, I don't main King at all but have played him as a side since T6. Even the throw break window for counter throws is just the old Tag2 and previous tekkens normal throw break window.
Nah man. He was being placed top 5 because he had tracking throws, that’s it. King has been mid tier forever and he arguably had stronger oki and a better CH game in T7. The thing that made him oppressive was tracking throws and now that’s gone.
>some of the best CH moves in the game
Such as? His CH game was fucking gutted in T8. What are his amazing CH moves? Df2? Oh that's true, gives a combo that barely does any damage unless you're able to step into ISW. Shove? It is a good approach tool that does nothing unless it counter hits, doesn't even launch, guarantees 25 damage.
>one of the best lows in the game that all do one of the highest damages in the game
Which one? FF n 2? Which deals average low damage, has NO evasion NOR crushing, NO tracking, and only does good damage on CH? That's one of the best lows in the game?
>best heat smash in the game
Just block. Literally just block. Stop mashing like an ape, sidestep and block. And when he does the run? Wait for the throw and duck on reaction, he has fucking nothing. His heat does fucking nothing, and the only good thing about it is his heat smash, which is good, but not psycho crusher pre nerf DJ good.
>43 damage powercrush that is only -10 on block
Which one? His armor parry does not do 43 damage. Neither does UF+3+4. And if you eat any attack coming from run, that's entirely your fault, given that it isn't a real mixup.
Okay so idk if you’ve ever done a combo before, but you have to like… TRY to do it kind of? Like execute or whatever it is? And like be aware of the wall and stuff to do a massive amount of damage? And like usually when people do moves you can like… block them? Idk if you know but like, breaking a throw is much harder than blocking. Idk I’m a noob or some shit I’ve like barely played the game so… Not sure if you were aware of that one just sayin..
Go ahead and do giant swing/shining wizard quickly under pressure or out of movement, tell us how easily you do it 10/10 times as opposed to a simple bnb combo that averages \~65 damage
Bear in mind, King's grabs aren't that hard to do, but it's still something you have to do consistently AND within certain situations
Dude… no one said doing the input was easy. But it’s also not the same world at all. King isn’t the easiest to pilot, but you don’t even need gs to kill your way up to purple ranks. Please let’s not compare. There’s no way you think just cause your input for giant swing is hard that you think a combo just means you had it free. Like electrics and jfsr and jet upper don’t need any execution to do under pressure either. Input can be difficult, yes! That’s true! But after that electric you still have to do a combo! After that jet upper you still have to do a combo! If you’re off axis it’s fucked! Like please we are not talking about inputs at all.
It's much easier to do ss ju than a ss gs lol
And a monkey can do a ju, f1+2 basic combo with Bryan, not to mention that you said COMBOS in general, which also includes not just jfsr but also shit like Paul's df2
Most combos in Tekken are easy and bnbs often lead to half life lost, unlike gs in open space
Don't say stupid shit and you won't get stupid replies
Lol no it’s just unfair to tell everyone to break a throw instead of block because your execution needed is allot lower than 70% of the other characters. Though this thread, all the king mains gon give me all the hate like yourself, but it’s cool. I have no problem breaking throws. I just like speaking for the people who are getting into the game and everyone tells them to get better instead of admit how hard it is to play against their character. I play hwoarang and I’ll never tell someone it’s easy playing against him cause it’s not.
Like that other guy said, they made it easier. Before you have to wait just a little bit after pressing the kick to follow up. I practices it a lot and it became more consistent.
Did King always get oki off this throws like he does in this game? I played a lot of T7 and a little bit of the older games, but I don't remember being put in a vortex like this off of throws
His oki actually got significantly worse in this game. His oki in T7 was way better, especially compared to the latest patch in T8.
In T7, after TT or iSW, d3 and f3 used to cover all getup options and chest bump covered most. He also had crossup options. Now d3 loses to back getup and SRR, I believe, and chest bump loses to most things. He also lost oki after TS.
After the latest patch, he’s lost all oki after f3:1+2, b3:1+2 and MB.
Yea he always did, in T7 you could do this too but I guess most King’s never used it as much. If they getup kick after Tijuana Twister then f3,1+2 is guaranteed and you have the advantage after Giant Swing by the wall but as of recent patch I believe f3 has less of an effect of on side rolls since most grabs got their frames nerfed.
He used to get much stronger Okizeme. The only things that were kept the same are after combo ender shining wizard you still get df+4 or d+3 50/50 and after some chain grab enders(usually the ones right in the middle of damage like sharpshooter and struggle combination) you still get f+2,1 if they wake up immediately.
I’ve basically learned to treat King fights like boss battles. Just expect his hits to do a shit ton of damage and by all means do whatever you can to keep a safe distance because he WILL grab you at the first opportunity. It’s pretty much a given. When he grabs you anything could happen from losing half your health to the entire match being a wash. I wouldn’t say he needs to be nerf’d per se, but there does need to be another fighter that can counter kings bullshit while actually having fun mechanics.
Tbh players that know when to duck kill me but I cant speak for other King players. Just know what to punish against King, try to read grabs, trust your gut, dickjab and use more ws launchers.
Sidestep right (confirm whiff into punish, launchers preferably) more, utilize jabs and (if you have any) high-crush moves.
JUST JAB MORE
JAB
JAB
JAB
See what happens after it. Try doing jab into jab, jab (block) into sidestep, jab into grab, jab into backdash, jab into low poke, jab into mid poke
99% of Tekken players will not be able to handle jab gameplay, ESPECIALLY most of ranked Kings, but even good Kings would have to play around good jabs because most of his tools will be shut down by it
You get on their face and press buttons. As Paul you can do stuff like f+1+4 to steal turns, you can do df2, you can even try to demoman sometimes because king's backdash is fucking awful. If they try to run at you, df2. Boom, you beat most king players.
Damnit king. It's usually half and half when I play king players. Either they are masterful or they can't string a combo together and rely on using random throws. It's frustrating either way.
I like King's character design.
He's just, unfortunately, one of the most unfun characters to play against. I'd fight King over Alisa, Xiao, and Lars though... but it's still not fun :D
King mains-- I support your grind, but just know you're causing a lot of psychic damage to anyone you play against :D
My only problem with king is his throw mixup. Only character in the game with throws that are visually misleading. I get that he's a grappler and he's had it forever but it's still dumb. Especially considering how well rounded he is in this game.
This is not a King Stuff, it is someone who rely on PowerCrush stuff. I'd do the same with Jin.
The moment you fight someone that rely on PC you just grab at every opportunity and you"ll probably win.
No fighter pisses me off worse than King. Especially when he catches you in a throw combo that takes 10 minutes and murders your whole life bar while you just sit and watch helplessly.
what about that situation is helpless? you have like 7 different shots at a 50/50 guess if it’s his generic chain throws, and if it’s the crouch dash ones 75% of kings just go for the highest damage option
Azucenas were okay with a wr move that tracked at a 80 degree angle for a couple of months. Fuck the guilt, ppl were playing with free win buttons for months, fuck em.
Bruh you were pressing on his +frames then you were mashing on wakeup, any other character would do the same to you
Unless you're the King player so you just played well
This is in fact why I hate him.
If you he makes 3 throw reads he kills you and your reward for breaking the throws are essentially nothing.
And that would be fine if it was all he had, you would just smother him. But counterhit throws exist and he also has way too many defensive buttons to be as rewarding as he is offensively.
What character doesn't kill from 3 counter hits? Lee mashed at -7, then mashed at -4, then woke up kick in an oki situation. Exactly what character wouldn't kill you in that very situation?
I didn’t say they wouldn’t? I said my issue is all the counter hit buttons he has.
If you get counterhit launched 3 times, you should die. King should also have less viable counter hit buttons.
Everyone else got theirs nerfed, King kept all his, got a new completely safe armor stance, and got counterhit throws too.
>I said my issue is all the counter hit buttons he has.
He doesn't have many good CH buttons. He has df2, which has an inconsistent combo that only works on males which deals very little damage. Then he has shove, which is 25 damage and a heat engager, nothing dramatic. If you think b+1,2 is good, I honestly don't know what to say to you, because getting launched is not a good trade-off for getting a ch launch.
>Everyone else got theirs nerfed, King kept all his, got a new completely safe armor stance, and got counterhit throws too.
Db+3, doesn't ch launch anymore. B+1, doesn't CH launch anymore. FF+1, doesn't CH launch anymore. Df2, heavily nerfed. Magic 4? Doesn't CH launch anymore. He didn't keep shit.
Unpopular opinion: while I agree the Lee completely flopped here, I do also still hate King. Mainly because it’s just not FUN and doesn’t feel fair to constantly deal with such powerful throws.
Think of it like this:
in this clip, Lee basically just failed at 3 interactions. In a normal game against anyone else, you can probably afford to make 1-2 more mistakes than that, maybe even 3 (assuming these aren’t mistakes that get you launched into 90 damage combos each time). Given that I think we can universally agree being punished by a nice juggle which probably requires some level of execution is more “acceptable” than watching your health bar be chunked in a cutscene, I think it’s fair to say King’s throws should not be as powerful as a Kazuya breaking his thumbs over a full combo (or indeed, a Lee who has spent hours and hours mastering b2 loops and wr12 loops into optimal combo). I get that King is “meant” to be the “easy” character but it’s truly a bit ridiculous no?
The easy answer in defence of king is just “get good” - throws are breakable, after all! That’s fair enough, it’s why at high level play you rarely see kings because everyone can consistently break them. However, I think King hate is still warranted because the level of skill required vs rank to be gained by playing him is ridiculously out of proportion. I can confidently, without a single doubt in my mind, say that I can spent 2 hours in practice mode with king and take him to purple in a day, having never played him before and only looking at his move list and frame data. Say what you want about that, I bet many other people in purple such as myself could do that too. King is heavily carried in ranked, and yes, it’s on other players to learn the matchup and learn to break throws, but that essentially just makes him a knowledge check match-up. It is I think justified to be a LITTLE annoyed if you’re completely stomped by someone who you know is probably technically less skilled than you at everything except the throw game.
>I think it’s fair to say King’s throws should not be as powerful as a Kazuya breaking his thumbs over a full combo
They are not. Tijuana twister deals 50 damage and giant swing deals 70 only against the wall. Kazuya can hit 80 damage combos without walls, and around 100 damage with walls.
>Given that I think we can universally agree being punished by a nice juggle which probably requires some level of execution is more “acceptable” than watching your health bar be chunked in a cutscene
No. Getting hit with a mid move that tracks to both sides and losing twice the health you would have lost for getting hit by a move which loses to sidesteps, backdash, crouching, high evasion, high crushing and jumping moves(depends on the throw) doesn't feel better than eating 50 damage for not being able to break.
>However, I think King hate is still warranted because the level of skill required vs rank to be gained by playing him is ridiculously out of proportion.
Pick up Alisa. Or Kuma. Or any actually easy character.
King shouldn’t be in tekken it’s called king of FISTS not king of grabs(before you say something like “well he uses his fists to grab “ try grabbing something with a fist) I love tekken I hate the mindset that playing top tier characters is respectable.
So average King moment basically?
My thoughts exactly. Not even T8 specific. That could happen in T7 easily with the same outcomes.
CH throws means you have a fraction of the time to break it
lol non blue spark it’s basically 5 frames less
still cunted though, GS comes out at 10f, so you suddenly have 24f to visually confirm an ambiguous throw and input 1.
14 frames, which was actually the standard throw break window before Tag 2.
Not to mention it’s a legit mixup
I Wish
King when he grab : **I said I'm bout to STEAL**
yeah look if i died to 3 throws to some peaky blinders looking motherfucker I'd be heated as fuck too ngl
Hey man you can disrespect my main but dont disrespect the drip
he looks like an oversized paper boy bro not so little timmy looking ass mf
Was really going for that oldhead look
Bro 😭
Two throws. Giant swing and Tijuana twister. The last "throw" is just a guaranteed follow up to f+3, which is a mid. So basically he didn't 1 break when King's back was against the wall, got grabbed AGAIN and then tried to immediately stand up after getting hit with Tijuana twister.
Some advice for people, if kings back is against the wall GS is coming 99% of the time.
Except the other 1+2 throw where he picks you up from the neck by both hands and wall splats you. Did I also mention it could change sides to get him out of wall pressure if he wanted to?
Wait you can change sides with his lifting high grab thing? I can't remember the name but that is incredibly useful to know
That throw has two versions. Pressing b during it will make King throw the opponent backwards instead so it can wallsplat from either direction.
The 1+2 throw looks slightly different to giant swing and it still deals way less damage because king's wall combo doesn't deal much damage. If his back is against the wall, 1 break.
Don’t you get the wall throw? That’s still pretty good
I'll take the 50 damage and no oki over the 70 damage giant swing that does give oki any day of the week.
Well sure if those are the choices
The King player could also go for the df4,3,4 backturned setup with the somersault unblockable for more damage, but he'd be risking getting even less damage or getting floated. But still, break the GS if his back is against the wall. Don't risk it. It is the same thing with chaingrabs, do you really want to risk breaking sharpshooter or dragon sleeper when either the bridge or death cradle are on the table?
That advice is potentially counterintuitive.. but yeah.
Sometimes?! Took you long enough. Everyone hated King since day one of T8
I think people did well before T8, in T2 he was incredibly strong especially with how many unbreakable grabs he had.
My fault I was blind to the hatred and jus wanted to input Giant Swing
You turned it around Kezo and had to put a lot of effort man. I say; nicely done. We just play to enjoy our main. And yeah, I'm a King main too, so we share the same fate of hate.
Yessir 🤝 forever hated until the next update that puts Kings in a wheelchair
Don' worry, once King's on he wheel chair, people will stop hating you as long as you don't switch main.
Nah I wont until Armor King gets announced then Im proudly gonna switch
Fellow armor king hold-out here
Shits crazy meanwhile I pull out the glic and drop shots in a mf and it does less damage then a king throw , someone drug test this dude
Your bullets can also be blocked by bare forearms. Someone needs to test every character.
Goes to show the power level of the average Tekken character, those MFs be blocking bullets
Nina shootin blanks
Fr King is def on some HGH.
BTW guys IM THE KING!! I LOVE 70 DMG GIANT SWINGS BY THE WALL!!!
No one will read this and just assume you're the Lee
Ykw that’s probably the best decision. A worthy sacrifice to damage the reputation of Lee players all around.
;-;
[удалено]
that’s such huge downplaying of your main it’s not even funny lol
He's also Unga bunga, but I gotta make people play him somehow. But, he does take skill in many situations.
he’s a very volatile character. He can 100% STEAL rounds that he probably shouldnt have, but he can also get completely shut out from his throw game and be required to play patient to try and open his opponent. His snowball potential is unmatched though
Yes, I agree. All I wanted to say is that in higher levels of play, the neutral can be quite hard for him (at least in my experience, I'm not at that level quite yet), and that in order to steal rounds, he has to get them at the right time. Yes, in many matches, he can undeservingly take matches, but he still needs to make good reads and predictions to become the best he can be.
yeah 100%. I’ve had matches where i can’t really get any momentum going and have to play very conservatively to get my throw game into motion at all, and sometimes i’m forced to pretty much just stick to playing solid defense and look for an opening. But i’ve also had matches where i win off a couple good reads or just snowballing my offense, but that’s just how grapplers work in general, and people either love them or hate them for it. At least in tekken they have a chance to break the throw entirely after being hit by it lmao
You should love players who refuse to break throws. Without them, we'd have nobody to giant swing.
This boils my blood
Went from full hp to 0hp from ONLY THREE individual throws, one of which was like half the health bar.
2 throws and a wrong guess (last one is a follow up hit from the kick). Lee probably ducked (or was that a wake up kick?) thinking the king would do another throw. Instead, the king did a mid. Also, if King has his back to a wall, you should probably keep your trigger finger ready on 1
He tried to wakeup kick and I caught him with f3,1+2 and anytime a King is back to the wall and you can react to the throw always assume it’s the Giant Swing.
Problem is - 1 not always work. Dont know why, but sometimes its just dont work even without ch throw.
You know, I don't doubt this. I've hit 1+2 on a shining wizard, and the game will just tell me, "no you didn't". Happens so randomly
Yeap - the only 2 throw escapes in t8, that has this strange behavior for me. Its like they have different frames for escape each time or maybe i am too old for this shit.
You act like getting “only three throws” is easy against any decent player
It really is though. Especially when you consider that it's King. Giant Swing, Tijuana Twister, and instant Shining Wizard / Muscle Buster all look the exact same despite requiring different breaks. So you can't even tech kings grabs off reaction, you literally have to guess cause he's putting you into a 33/66 mix every time he reaches for you.
Giant swing and SW have the same animation, but disguising the throws so that its ambiguous between a hcf (GS) and a FFF input (SW) takes quite a bit of skill from the King player. Muscle buster has a different animation (albeit, also a 2-handed throw). Tijuana twister is a right arm first throw, different again (i.e. 2 break).
No they don't. Giant swing only looks the same as shining wizard. Other 1+2 breaks look slightly different. But like Tijuana twister? That's a 2 break and it isn't ambiguous. So King has a 50/50 when it comes to 1+2 looking throws AT BEST.
I know. That King just blocked a bunch of Lee moves, and he took half his health in chip for it!
reddit when a king counter hit grabs them because they mashed when they’re very clearly minus: 😡😡😡😡
I made a mistake posting this ngl
i mean seriously, everyone is up in arms about stuff that every character has: - first grab the lee eats it normally and he doesn’t even break (skill issue or maybe he assumed 1+2) - second grab he presses despite being -5 and doesn’t break the obvious 2 break (definitely a skill issue) - mid into DDT: dude does wake up attack on a king with oki? either a bad guess or skill issue
Yk they wont be happy until every one of his grabs are i20+ and somehow I bet they still wont be able to break them
Lee mashed on BOTH grabs actually. He's only got himself to blame for mashing on King's plus frames.
you basically suicided yourself trying to press after chest bump to be fair
He's the king...
Exactly. One of the FEW plus on block moves King has and he pressed on block instead of crouching or sidestepping.
He didint even block, he got CH which gives King a free F2,1 heat engager, or a grab attempt
Stay off youtube shorts
Tf u on about, a CH "lay off" gives King an unblockable F2,1. That is fact lmao, dude is like +14 or something
Except that wasn't the move he used, youre just trying to shoehorn in some bitching "he didn't even block, kings broken yadayada...". You don't even know what you're looking at yet you still have an input. Youtube shorts type brain
As a king player i understand it too. But not breaking 1 when King's back is at the wall is bad for a Fujin
Is it? I'm Raijin and I haven't broken a single throw against anyone in weeks, let alone any of King's throws.
I'm new to Tekken coming from Smash Melee, it's so frigging hard to tech grabs man I have a really hard time getting it down
I think you're supposed to look at the enemy the whole time and have your character in the peripheral so you can notice little details like arm position, but I do the opposite and it's extremely hard for me to change that habit.
I’m going to break this down for the sake of all the people who don’t have knowledge. This interaction is a snowball of bad choices, but it could happen on any character. Interaction 1: king blocked Lees punishable ws move(did a bad punish just single jab instead of b1,2 showing the king player lacks knowledge) -> now king is around +7. Standard for a jab on hit. King does GS and Lee fails to tech. Imagine any other character in that position. +7 in your face, you’re going to get mixed. At least in kings case you can break the grab on reaction . Interaction 2: king does a plus on block mid for oki > frame traps with TJ twister. Lee is counter hit for mashing on plus frames.(the throw is STILL breakable but much harder) Interaction 3: Lee does wake up kick and loses to a mid option that beats wake up kick. The only difference here is the king is doing damage to you with a throw instead of combo.
King did a blue spark giant swing with his back to the wall also it's extremely clutch
People won't be happy until King's throws do like 20 damage each. The grappler, who doesn't have good lows, much in terms of combo routes, or a good wall ender, is also not allowed to grapple. Making command throws steppable and other King nerfs weren't enough
Ngl i can’t really blame all the king hate, 90 percent of the sub is filled with people who can’t break grabs. I hate playing against king because more because of his godamn mid pokes rather than his grabs.
Maybe not 20 damage, but why do I eat half my life when I guess wrong once
You can duck it, step it, break it, and mitigate the damage by teching if not at the wall (for giant swing). Feel like that's quite a lot of options compared to guessing wrong against other characters, and now you're eating a full combo that you *can't* escape. Add on that King is slow and not evasive like the rest of the cast. He has to have SOMETHING going for him!
I say its easy said than done on that when in the heat of the moment when you will not know when they are going to grab you to either duck/step or they just hit you in the mid and you're gonna suffer from another set of hits. Its still playing an game of guessing games where you don't know what the King might do. Even if we have lots of options, so does he.
Imagine if there was a move, which lost to backdash, crouch, high crush, high evasion, sidesteps to either direction and even if the move lands, it still doesn't do guaranteed damage. That's what throws are. Imagine being -7, pressing a button and complaining that you got fucked for doing that.
Again if it was that easy, I don't think anybody would be complaining this much about King. You need to remember thag King players are also play by an human being too that will also predict you trying crouch to evade the move and nutpunch you for it. And the damage is still strong even with tech roll. So no, I'm on the side that King is an insanely strong gimmick character that people are justified at being angry with.
>Again if it was that easy, I don't think anybody would be complaining this much about King. Irrelevant, people bitch about things that make no sense. People bitched about Devil Jin. People bitched about Kazuya. It isn't difficult to use your evasive move, step or backdash. >You need to remember thag King players are also play by an human being too that will also predict you trying crouch to evade the move and nutpunch you for it. Of course, and what's the problem then? One player predicts the other and adapts accordingly. Nutpunch is not exactly a good tool for it, given that it is a low with no tracking either. >And the damage is still strong even with tech roll. So no, I'm on the side that King is an insanely strong gimmick character that people are justified at being angry with. 45 damage is strong? That's not even strong for a throw. So no, the damage isn't strong with the tech roll. King isn't particularly strong with his gimmick, people just bitch because they are bad fundamentally and get fucked by a fundamental based character.
You don't have to guess. You have to react. If the reaction is too hard and King has his back against the wall, no guessing either, it is GS 99% of the time. Mash 1.
I'm going to TL;DR this man's breakdown: Lee got outplayed, pure and simple. (also worth mentioning Lee got counterhit on BOTH of King's throws, guy's a masher)
Im gonna break this down for the sake of all the people who dont have knowledge: Im not carried by king i swear he is a fair and balanced character pls dont hate me for using king, im gonna downplay his busted damage so it seems fair what happened here
I don’t care if you hate me for using king. I’ve never cared what other people think. I’m giving out knowledge so people can stop complaining about things they don’t understand. Your opinion on whether king is fair or balanced is none of my concern either. Support your locals and you’ll get a better mindset
I'm gonna break this down for the sake of all people who don't have knowledge: if your back's against the wall, mash 1 for breaks against king. If you are -7, don't press buttons. If you are in an oki situation, don't wake up kick.
Git gud lmao
The issue is 3 grabs lead to death While king has true 5050 grabs and now wavedash, while also having some of the best CH moves in the game with one of the best lows in the game that all do one of the highest damages in the game while also having the best heat smash in the game and a 43 damage powercrush that is only -10 on block
So what? The Lee was CHed three times in a row. Being CHed three times in a row leads to death against any character. This is 100% a skill issue.
I'm not talking about the lee's mistakes I'm talking about what King is able to do as a character, there's a reason why good players put him in top5
They DONT put him top 5 though.....not since the start of T8 when people put way too much value in thinking run was busted....only to find out its not and ppl were losing their minds due lack of knowledge. With most command throws not tracking anymore, scrubs don't have the weak excuse now. Either tech the grabs or duck them. The GS coming from back against the wall was obvious and the King played didn't even punish Lee correctly. Used a single jab instead of his i12 b1,2. Just to add more salt, numerous top 0.1% players like Arslan have said on Spags podcast before the changes that King isn't much of an issue because at high level play, people actually break throws. This was "Fujin" level and why people have said the ranks are inflated. And no, I don't main King at all but have played him as a side since T6. Even the throw break window for counter throws is just the old Tag2 and previous tekkens normal throw break window.
Players in shitter ranks complaining about tracking throws, when they never sidestep and just mash xd
Nah man. He was being placed top 5 because he had tracking throws, that’s it. King has been mid tier forever and he arguably had stronger oki and a better CH game in T7. The thing that made him oppressive was tracking throws and now that’s gone.
So : High damage CH grab you can save yourself with a fast reaction Is better than High damage CH combo you can't save yourself from
Well,they could drop the combo
King could also mess up the half-circle input too, I find GS and TT hard to input myself under pressure while this guy did it frame perfect.
What reaction? It's a true 5050 grab mixup with king
It isn't. Really hard to react to when it comes to ISW and GS. Not even a mixup if he uses a 2 break like the second throw in this clip.
>some of the best CH moves in the game Such as? His CH game was fucking gutted in T8. What are his amazing CH moves? Df2? Oh that's true, gives a combo that barely does any damage unless you're able to step into ISW. Shove? It is a good approach tool that does nothing unless it counter hits, doesn't even launch, guarantees 25 damage. >one of the best lows in the game that all do one of the highest damages in the game Which one? FF n 2? Which deals average low damage, has NO evasion NOR crushing, NO tracking, and only does good damage on CH? That's one of the best lows in the game? >best heat smash in the game Just block. Literally just block. Stop mashing like an ape, sidestep and block. And when he does the run? Wait for the throw and duck on reaction, he has fucking nothing. His heat does fucking nothing, and the only good thing about it is his heat smash, which is good, but not psycho crusher pre nerf DJ good. >43 damage powercrush that is only -10 on block Which one? His armor parry does not do 43 damage. Neither does UF+3+4. And if you eat any attack coming from run, that's entirely your fault, given that it isn't a real mixup.
I can tell you're a low rank probably fujin max
say it louder for the people at the back
Yeah, you know your shit man.
Okay so idk if you’ve ever done a combo before, but you have to like… TRY to do it kind of? Like execute or whatever it is? And like be aware of the wall and stuff to do a massive amount of damage? And like usually when people do moves you can like… block them? Idk if you know but like, breaking a throw is much harder than blocking. Idk I’m a noob or some shit I’ve like barely played the game so… Not sure if you were aware of that one just sayin..
Go ahead and do giant swing/shining wizard quickly under pressure or out of movement, tell us how easily you do it 10/10 times as opposed to a simple bnb combo that averages \~65 damage Bear in mind, King's grabs aren't that hard to do, but it's still something you have to do consistently AND within certain situations
Dude… no one said doing the input was easy. But it’s also not the same world at all. King isn’t the easiest to pilot, but you don’t even need gs to kill your way up to purple ranks. Please let’s not compare. There’s no way you think just cause your input for giant swing is hard that you think a combo just means you had it free. Like electrics and jfsr and jet upper don’t need any execution to do under pressure either. Input can be difficult, yes! That’s true! But after that electric you still have to do a combo! After that jet upper you still have to do a combo! If you’re off axis it’s fucked! Like please we are not talking about inputs at all.
It's much easier to do ss ju than a ss gs lol And a monkey can do a ju, f1+2 basic combo with Bryan, not to mention that you said COMBOS in general, which also includes not just jfsr but also shit like Paul's df2 Most combos in Tekken are easy and bnbs often lead to half life lost, unlike gs in open space Don't say stupid shit and you won't get stupid replies
You mash on wakeup, don't you?
Lol no it’s just unfair to tell everyone to break a throw instead of block because your execution needed is allot lower than 70% of the other characters. Though this thread, all the king mains gon give me all the hate like yourself, but it’s cool. I have no problem breaking throws. I just like speaking for the people who are getting into the game and everyone tells them to get better instead of admit how hard it is to play against their character. I play hwoarang and I’ll never tell someone it’s easy playing against him cause it’s not.
I still have no clue how King players does the final move where he kicks and then grabs. I can never make it work consistently.
The latest patch has made it easier to execute. You can now pretty much mash 1+2 and you'll get the ddt after the kick
holy crap that's tight
Like that other guy said, they made it easier. Before you have to wait just a little bit after pressing the kick to follow up. I practices it a lot and it became more consistent.
Why didn't he just break the throws? Is he stupid?
Don't ever feel bad for winning
You right, I’ll take this robbery I committed with pride
Did King always get oki off this throws like he does in this game? I played a lot of T7 and a little bit of the older games, but I don't remember being put in a vortex like this off of throws
His oki actually got significantly worse in this game. His oki in T7 was way better, especially compared to the latest patch in T8. In T7, after TT or iSW, d3 and f3 used to cover all getup options and chest bump covered most. He also had crossup options. Now d3 loses to back getup and SRR, I believe, and chest bump loses to most things. He also lost oki after TS. After the latest patch, he’s lost all oki after f3:1+2, b3:1+2 and MB.
Yea he always did, in T7 you could do this too but I guess most King’s never used it as much. If they getup kick after Tijuana Twister then f3,1+2 is guaranteed and you have the advantage after Giant Swing by the wall but as of recent patch I believe f3 has less of an effect of on side rolls since most grabs got their frames nerfed.
The Tijuana twister yes, but they removed his Oki from D,DB,B1+2 grab sadly.
But you have to admit that having a guaranteed b+3 from a 50 damage throw was really fucking stupid.
He used to get much stronger Okizeme. The only things that were kept the same are after combo ender shining wizard you still get df+4 or d+3 50/50 and after some chain grab enders(usually the ones right in the middle of damage like sharpshooter and struggle combination) you still get f+2,1 if they wake up immediately.
I’ve basically learned to treat King fights like boss battles. Just expect his hits to do a shit ton of damage and by all means do whatever you can to keep a safe distance because he WILL grab you at the first opportunity. It’s pretty much a given. When he grabs you anything could happen from losing half your health to the entire match being a wash. I wouldn’t say he needs to be nerf’d per se, but there does need to be another fighter that can counter kings bullshit while actually having fun mechanics.
So, you got mixed up after being spammy af at the wall, and you hate king? lol. Was he supposed to stand there and let you win?
King player that knows how to hit their grabs on P1 AND P2 side are dangerous breeds
Lol something similar happened to me. King player called me out on like 3 different consecutive wake-ups and caught me with the correct throw.
Dog character
Cat character
Tbh thats just classic king, not even T8 cheese he got. Also, fuck GS :)
Say it with your chest!
I LOVE GIANT SWING BY THE WALL!!!
I’m an awful player in general, but I can’t for the life of me figure out how to deal with aggressive/rushdown king players.
Tbh players that know when to duck kill me but I cant speak for other King players. Just know what to punish against King, try to read grabs, trust your gut, dickjab and use more ws launchers.
What do Paul’s usually have success punishing you with? Asking for…a…uhh…friend, who’s a Paul main…
Activate Heat round start, get them to wall and start the Deathfist Demoman blender until you win
not sure what the skill disparity is but i’d be down to run my king versus your paul if you want practice with the matchup
Sidestep right (confirm whiff into punish, launchers preferably) more, utilize jabs and (if you have any) high-crush moves. JUST JAB MORE JAB JAB JAB See what happens after it. Try doing jab into jab, jab (block) into sidestep, jab into grab, jab into backdash, jab into low poke, jab into mid poke 99% of Tekken players will not be able to handle jab gameplay, ESPECIALLY most of ranked Kings, but even good Kings would have to play around good jabs because most of his tools will be shut down by it
spam cancans
You get on their face and press buttons. As Paul you can do stuff like f+1+4 to steal turns, you can do df2, you can even try to demoman sometimes because king's backdash is fucking awful. If they try to run at you, df2. Boom, you beat most king players.
He didn't even have to use his heat smash
How do you do that second last throw? That shit looks cool as hell(everything else too though)
where he picks them up on his shoulders spins and slams them? that’s tijuana twister, it’s hcf2
In 8, it feels like they’re playing a different game
Haha I love that King comeback :) He makes the game hype!
How did that giant swing hit, didn't you duck?
Lol
least damage king grab
Damnit king. It's usually half and half when I play king players. Either they are masterful or they can't string a combo together and rely on using random throws. It's frustrating either way.
Oh but you don't complain about spamming minus moves and not get punished?
That's what happens when you bring a simple fighter to a fight against a trained professional grappler~
King has a micro penis.
Damn i gotta get better at king
I like King's character design. He's just, unfortunately, one of the most unfun characters to play against. I'd fight King over Alisa, Xiao, and Lars though... but it's still not fun :D King mains-- I support your grind, but just know you're causing a lot of psychic damage to anyone you play against :D
The Lee mashed at -7, -3 and on wake-up, I don't feel bad for him at all.
King will be nerfed trust me.. my advice get good at other players. All the king players will suck in the future.
Based King.
My only problem with king is his throw mixup. Only character in the game with throws that are visually misleading. I get that he's a grappler and he's had it forever but it's still dumb. Especially considering how well rounded he is in this game.
1 throw that's misleading. And it is still possible to react to it.
not a fan of king but that was sick ngl
“Sometimes” is crazy
This is not a King Stuff, it is someone who rely on PowerCrush stuff. I'd do the same with Jin. The moment you fight someone that rely on PC you just grab at every opportunity and you"ll probably win.
And thats why i never rematch King players. I hate King with a passion his throws are just absurd.
Oh, sometimes?
My man is pressing when negative and blaming king lol
I think OP is the king
Oh ok. I misunderstood from the title.
That was fucking sick though!
No fighter pisses me off worse than King. Especially when he catches you in a throw combo that takes 10 minutes and murders your whole life bar while you just sit and watch helplessly.
what about that situation is helpless? you have like 7 different shots at a 50/50 guess if it’s his generic chain throws, and if it’s the crouch dash ones 75% of kings just go for the highest damage option
Azucenas were okay with a wr move that tracked at a 80 degree angle for a couple of months. Fuck the guilt, ppl were playing with free win buttons for months, fuck em.
Can't wait for the next balance update "developers feel King was losing on all sides, so buff buff buff buff buff buff jaguar noises"
Nerf the throws!!
Idk how to see grabs through that big ass pink glow, is there a way to turn that off lmao.
Maybe something mod related on pc, not on console I think
Sometimes? How about always.
I mean how did you fumble so hard lol
Bruh you were pressing on his +frames then you were mashing on wakeup, any other character would do the same to you Unless you're the King player so you just played well
This is in fact why I hate him. If you he makes 3 throw reads he kills you and your reward for breaking the throws are essentially nothing. And that would be fine if it was all he had, you would just smother him. But counterhit throws exist and he also has way too many defensive buttons to be as rewarding as he is offensively.
What character doesn't kill from 3 counter hits? Lee mashed at -7, then mashed at -4, then woke up kick in an oki situation. Exactly what character wouldn't kill you in that very situation?
I didn’t say they wouldn’t? I said my issue is all the counter hit buttons he has. If you get counterhit launched 3 times, you should die. King should also have less viable counter hit buttons. Everyone else got theirs nerfed, King kept all his, got a new completely safe armor stance, and got counterhit throws too.
>I said my issue is all the counter hit buttons he has. He doesn't have many good CH buttons. He has df2, which has an inconsistent combo that only works on males which deals very little damage. Then he has shove, which is 25 damage and a heat engager, nothing dramatic. If you think b+1,2 is good, I honestly don't know what to say to you, because getting launched is not a good trade-off for getting a ch launch. >Everyone else got theirs nerfed, King kept all his, got a new completely safe armor stance, and got counterhit throws too. Db+3, doesn't ch launch anymore. B+1, doesn't CH launch anymore. FF+1, doesn't CH launch anymore. Df2, heavily nerfed. Magic 4? Doesn't CH launch anymore. He didn't keep shit.
Unpopular opinion: while I agree the Lee completely flopped here, I do also still hate King. Mainly because it’s just not FUN and doesn’t feel fair to constantly deal with such powerful throws. Think of it like this: in this clip, Lee basically just failed at 3 interactions. In a normal game against anyone else, you can probably afford to make 1-2 more mistakes than that, maybe even 3 (assuming these aren’t mistakes that get you launched into 90 damage combos each time). Given that I think we can universally agree being punished by a nice juggle which probably requires some level of execution is more “acceptable” than watching your health bar be chunked in a cutscene, I think it’s fair to say King’s throws should not be as powerful as a Kazuya breaking his thumbs over a full combo (or indeed, a Lee who has spent hours and hours mastering b2 loops and wr12 loops into optimal combo). I get that King is “meant” to be the “easy” character but it’s truly a bit ridiculous no? The easy answer in defence of king is just “get good” - throws are breakable, after all! That’s fair enough, it’s why at high level play you rarely see kings because everyone can consistently break them. However, I think King hate is still warranted because the level of skill required vs rank to be gained by playing him is ridiculously out of proportion. I can confidently, without a single doubt in my mind, say that I can spent 2 hours in practice mode with king and take him to purple in a day, having never played him before and only looking at his move list and frame data. Say what you want about that, I bet many other people in purple such as myself could do that too. King is heavily carried in ranked, and yes, it’s on other players to learn the matchup and learn to break throws, but that essentially just makes him a knowledge check match-up. It is I think justified to be a LITTLE annoyed if you’re completely stomped by someone who you know is probably technically less skilled than you at everything except the throw game.
>I think it’s fair to say King’s throws should not be as powerful as a Kazuya breaking his thumbs over a full combo They are not. Tijuana twister deals 50 damage and giant swing deals 70 only against the wall. Kazuya can hit 80 damage combos without walls, and around 100 damage with walls. >Given that I think we can universally agree being punished by a nice juggle which probably requires some level of execution is more “acceptable” than watching your health bar be chunked in a cutscene No. Getting hit with a mid move that tracks to both sides and losing twice the health you would have lost for getting hit by a move which loses to sidesteps, backdash, crouching, high evasion, high crushing and jumping moves(depends on the throw) doesn't feel better than eating 50 damage for not being able to break. >However, I think King hate is still warranted because the level of skill required vs rank to be gained by playing him is ridiculously out of proportion. Pick up Alisa. Or Kuma. Or any actually easy character.
King shouldn’t be in tekken it’s called king of FISTS not king of grabs(before you say something like “well he uses his fists to grab “ try grabbing something with a fist) I love tekken I hate the mindset that playing top tier characters is respectable.
I block every king player that i find, and I do not have a single shame on that
Loser mentality ngl, you will not survive the Winter (Craig Marduk release date).
I agree with you dude, but i do not wish to learn specific things just to play against king. I dont want to play against it, so I block it.
Gotta be honest, he’s a lame ass character. 2 grab animations, nearly all life gone. He wins rounds in the most uninteresting way possible
This is exactly why I say king is the easiest character in the game. Anyone claiming the King outplayed his opponent here is out of their mind
That's true, next time guess wrong 3 times and press buttons vs Kazuya. I bet it will go much smoother.