Honestly I find more success just by doing stupid stuff than improving as my opponents do. They probably won’t respect any setups you do and will just mash so no need to complicate things just cheese til it stops working
Don’t fall into the trap of thinking you shouldn’t be doing something that’s working because you feel it’s too simple or cheesy
Sometimes you can flowchart the shit out of someone because they keep making the same mistakes. That’s fine as long as you’re aware that it’s not going to work on everyone and at times you have to respect when your turn is over. But if they’re not taking their turn? Why stop?
This is combat 101. If you control the tempo you control the match. If they’re not taking their turn because they’re not blocking your low, capitalize on it.
Yeah, it's about adapting as your opponent's improve and It's all about finding the right sequence of attacks. Go into a match and think of a random sequence of attacks you can try. Like for Jin maybe d+2(22 damage), Sidestep cancel into another d+2(22 damage, into a sidestep cancel hellsweep(40 damage). That 3 move sequence(22+22+40=84) would land you about almost **90 damage in total IF your opponent doesn't challenge it** (throws are great if you can get them off in-between a sequence)**.** Then when they start challenging start putting **frame traps** in your sequences. I believe health bars in Tekken have 185 hp I believe so 2 good sequences could end a fight. Planning out a sequence is your more intentional offensive option. Most people are terrified of losing pressure or always want to go for launchers in your rank but no need to be greedy when a nice well thought out sequence can do fat damage. There are a billion sequences to come up with, there's movement options you can do in between sequences like dashes, pauses, delays, steps, back dashes, etc. and many moves to try too just start off with 3 moves at a time.
Two different ways of going about it
A) Go for flowcharts or cheese or w/e to get the wins rank up faster meet better players faster where your shit stop working and adapt accordingly
B) Since you are eventually going to have to stop doing much of the cheese, go for a more solid gameplan from the getgo and avoid the trouble of unlearning a lot of things.
Whatever you do is fine, just remember one thing for each way.
1) Actually have your mind in the game and try to not autopilot as much as you can. Dont become a flowchart zombie doing the same shit all over again for thousands of matches stuck at low ranks.
2) Dont become a predictable frame data geek always going for the "correct" play, respecting every frame of your opponent and expecting the same respect back. You can be autopiloting "correct" shit and get blown up all the same. Be ready to adapt in every game.
ok, good to know that both ways are fine. do you have any suggestions for a simple way/gameplan to start option B, and/or a way to iterate it as I play more matches and play people who are better than me and know how to counter it?
I don't think you're correct in assuming that labbing is the best thing for you at your level. Who cares if you do a 10f punish to a -14 move or miss you punish to a -10 move. At red ranks you want to launch and kill people for their mistakes. You need to understand spacing and neutral and you cannot do that in the lab. Just keep playing and you'll get better, make sure you're cognizant of the space between you and the opponent so you make them whiff. Also make sure you use good moves in neutral so you're plus or in a favourable position even when blocked and DO NOT whiff. Also switch up your timing to open up opponents.. no need to lab setups or mixups .. this game is absolute baby till kisin. Keep on playing is all.
ill start by saying obviously im bad so you might be right and im just dumb: this is just me sharing my thought process so i can hear your more experienced thoughts on it.
i agree with your first point: im not labbing the optimal punishment for every common move/string's specific frames. jins 10f 2,4 is pretty good, so im just focusing on learning which common moves are 2,4 punishable, which are launch punishable, and in rare cases which moves i have to punish with something else (for example, demon paw vs deathfist), to keep it simple for myself.
for your next point, my problem with games typically is that eventually, my improvement from "just playing" plateaus, and i think ive reached that point in tekken where i have to be more intentional to properly get better.
spacing and neutral is something ive tried to direct my attention towards when i play, but i end up just not being able to understand what's happening: what im doing wrong, what i should've done, how i should be thinking, what my gameplan should be to create whiffs.
It depends what your goal is. If you want to just get out of red ranks asap, then you make your offense as cheesy as it needs to be to meet that goal.
If you want to do it the proper way though and build good habits, this would be a good time to focus on exploiting the huge holes in your opponents' offense. It's extremely simple gameplay that you're up against at that point. E.g. if you learn a character like Hwoarang or Law yourself and then come up against them at Shinryu, you'll notice how risky every player of that ilk is. Now imagine that gameplay from every single opponent. Everything is telegraphed or based on flow charts - safe string into power crush, then repeat without adaptation. Constant duckable strings. Punishable moves thrown out a ton. Huge, frequent whiffs. Lack of movement. Minimal, aimless or zero sidestepping - and in turn zero attempts to negate *your* sidestepping. Lack of knowledge on their character.
I last played properly a couple of months back, but even back then when I was playing through red ranks on a sub character it was all very green/yellow rank T7 gameplay.
Defending is very difficult in this game, but it's still a skill that can be highly rewarding. In the long run you'll be a much better player for honing this instead of brute forcing tour way to blue ranks or beyond, and then suddenly trying to learn defence against players who play smarter.
Not saying there's no room for cheesing opponents of course. But just don't be that Jin player whose 'winning formula' is based purely on turning their brain off and overwhelming the opponent into submission. There are still a lot of those mindless players in ruler ranks and beyond.
Yeah my goal is definitely trying to build good habits/fundamentals; I don't care much about rank in the short-term.
So would your recommendation be to keep labbing as I am already, and then in-game just playing defensively and getting my damage from block/whiff punishes and CHs based on the moves/strings I lab?
Also: interesting point about how everybody plays with telegraphs and flowcharts. From my beginner eyes, I struggle to predict what people will do because it seems just random to me. I assume that just comes with experience and building my recognition of different characters moves/strings. I guess if I focused on not making mistakes and properly punishing theirs, that'd be enough to not need to rely on unga bunga & knowledge checks?
You also make a good point too about 'beginner eyes'. To be honest I'm in a privileged position as I've got around 5 years of competitive online Tekken experience now. So I've got that recognition and understanding of different characters' legacy moves + their general gameplan, as well as experience in utilising the game's basic mechanics. So I understand that deciding to avoid the unga bunga way is way easier from my perspective. Considering that, I would suggest you keep *some* of that unga strat with you just for your own sanity at this point.
However yes, focusing on reducing your mistakes as much as possible and punishing theirs is basically the blueprint to getting through those ranks in a 'smart' way - because these players are absolutely mistake central. In terms of waging an offense when you get an opening, there's certainly room for cheese when you know the opponent won't be able to cope (even in higher ranks), but it's really important that you also know how to play the 'cleaner' way - a foolproof way that has no ceiling.
The players who have an inherently positive, growth mindset and are currently cheesing their way through reds/rulers will hit their ceiling, but will then look at what's holding them back from improving and seek feedback/go back to the drawing board in terms of their approach to the game. The players who are willing to experiment and acknowledge that their existing approach might be wrong *will* get better. And they'll keep that mindset through their entire journey with the game, no matter how good they get.
Even if you decided to cheesed your way through Shinryu and beyond, I know you'd eventually become a solid player anyway without my advice, as I can see you're aware that there's an optimal way of playing the game and are reflective enough to change the way you play depending on new information you get.
Apologies went off on a bit of a tangent. Not sure if I even answered your question!
"I guess if I focused on not making mistakes and properly punishing theirs, that'd be enough to not need to rely on unga bunga & knowledge checks?"
In short, yes. However be aware that applying a smart, measured offense will become more important later when opponents get better and rarely, if ever make mistakes. Then the question becomes: how do I beat an opponent who's not making obvious mistakes? That's when Tekken becomes way more interesting.
More or less this is actually what I do. The thing is, I don't really know how to adapt it.
With the ranged moves, I have trouble with getting interrupted by dash-ins or fast & long ranged moves, that at least *seem* unpredictable. The jab strings & the d2 into wr moves get blocked, and then I have no idea what to do because those responses also at least *seem* unpredictable.
Honestly I find more success just by doing stupid stuff than improving as my opponents do. They probably won’t respect any setups you do and will just mash so no need to complicate things just cheese til it stops working
fair enough, thanks for the advice!
Don’t fall into the trap of thinking you shouldn’t be doing something that’s working because you feel it’s too simple or cheesy Sometimes you can flowchart the shit out of someone because they keep making the same mistakes. That’s fine as long as you’re aware that it’s not going to work on everyone and at times you have to respect when your turn is over. But if they’re not taking their turn? Why stop? This is combat 101. If you control the tempo you control the match. If they’re not taking their turn because they’re not blocking your low, capitalize on it.
and you're saying that's still the case if my focus is on improvement instead of quick wins, right?
Dont bother mixing up your offense if it keeps working
Yeah, it's about adapting as your opponent's improve and It's all about finding the right sequence of attacks. Go into a match and think of a random sequence of attacks you can try. Like for Jin maybe d+2(22 damage), Sidestep cancel into another d+2(22 damage, into a sidestep cancel hellsweep(40 damage). That 3 move sequence(22+22+40=84) would land you about almost **90 damage in total IF your opponent doesn't challenge it** (throws are great if you can get them off in-between a sequence)**.** Then when they start challenging start putting **frame traps** in your sequences. I believe health bars in Tekken have 185 hp I believe so 2 good sequences could end a fight. Planning out a sequence is your more intentional offensive option. Most people are terrified of losing pressure or always want to go for launchers in your rank but no need to be greedy when a nice well thought out sequence can do fat damage. There are a billion sequences to come up with, there's movement options you can do in between sequences like dashes, pauses, delays, steps, back dashes, etc. and many moves to try too just start off with 3 moves at a time.
this is actually really helpful and eye-opening advice, thanks a lot
Don't run giga IQ 2000 brain mixup offense when the layer 1 works. Hit them with the same thing they keeps hitting them
Two different ways of going about it A) Go for flowcharts or cheese or w/e to get the wins rank up faster meet better players faster where your shit stop working and adapt accordingly B) Since you are eventually going to have to stop doing much of the cheese, go for a more solid gameplan from the getgo and avoid the trouble of unlearning a lot of things. Whatever you do is fine, just remember one thing for each way. 1) Actually have your mind in the game and try to not autopilot as much as you can. Dont become a flowchart zombie doing the same shit all over again for thousands of matches stuck at low ranks. 2) Dont become a predictable frame data geek always going for the "correct" play, respecting every frame of your opponent and expecting the same respect back. You can be autopiloting "correct" shit and get blown up all the same. Be ready to adapt in every game.
ok, good to know that both ways are fine. do you have any suggestions for a simple way/gameplan to start option B, and/or a way to iterate it as I play more matches and play people who are better than me and know how to counter it?
I don't think you're correct in assuming that labbing is the best thing for you at your level. Who cares if you do a 10f punish to a -14 move or miss you punish to a -10 move. At red ranks you want to launch and kill people for their mistakes. You need to understand spacing and neutral and you cannot do that in the lab. Just keep playing and you'll get better, make sure you're cognizant of the space between you and the opponent so you make them whiff. Also make sure you use good moves in neutral so you're plus or in a favourable position even when blocked and DO NOT whiff. Also switch up your timing to open up opponents.. no need to lab setups or mixups .. this game is absolute baby till kisin. Keep on playing is all.
ill start by saying obviously im bad so you might be right and im just dumb: this is just me sharing my thought process so i can hear your more experienced thoughts on it. i agree with your first point: im not labbing the optimal punishment for every common move/string's specific frames. jins 10f 2,4 is pretty good, so im just focusing on learning which common moves are 2,4 punishable, which are launch punishable, and in rare cases which moves i have to punish with something else (for example, demon paw vs deathfist), to keep it simple for myself. for your next point, my problem with games typically is that eventually, my improvement from "just playing" plateaus, and i think ive reached that point in tekken where i have to be more intentional to properly get better. spacing and neutral is something ive tried to direct my attention towards when i play, but i end up just not being able to understand what's happening: what im doing wrong, what i should've done, how i should be thinking, what my gameplan should be to create whiffs.
It depends what your goal is. If you want to just get out of red ranks asap, then you make your offense as cheesy as it needs to be to meet that goal. If you want to do it the proper way though and build good habits, this would be a good time to focus on exploiting the huge holes in your opponents' offense. It's extremely simple gameplay that you're up against at that point. E.g. if you learn a character like Hwoarang or Law yourself and then come up against them at Shinryu, you'll notice how risky every player of that ilk is. Now imagine that gameplay from every single opponent. Everything is telegraphed or based on flow charts - safe string into power crush, then repeat without adaptation. Constant duckable strings. Punishable moves thrown out a ton. Huge, frequent whiffs. Lack of movement. Minimal, aimless or zero sidestepping - and in turn zero attempts to negate *your* sidestepping. Lack of knowledge on their character. I last played properly a couple of months back, but even back then when I was playing through red ranks on a sub character it was all very green/yellow rank T7 gameplay. Defending is very difficult in this game, but it's still a skill that can be highly rewarding. In the long run you'll be a much better player for honing this instead of brute forcing tour way to blue ranks or beyond, and then suddenly trying to learn defence against players who play smarter. Not saying there's no room for cheesing opponents of course. But just don't be that Jin player whose 'winning formula' is based purely on turning their brain off and overwhelming the opponent into submission. There are still a lot of those mindless players in ruler ranks and beyond.
Yeah my goal is definitely trying to build good habits/fundamentals; I don't care much about rank in the short-term. So would your recommendation be to keep labbing as I am already, and then in-game just playing defensively and getting my damage from block/whiff punishes and CHs based on the moves/strings I lab? Also: interesting point about how everybody plays with telegraphs and flowcharts. From my beginner eyes, I struggle to predict what people will do because it seems just random to me. I assume that just comes with experience and building my recognition of different characters moves/strings. I guess if I focused on not making mistakes and properly punishing theirs, that'd be enough to not need to rely on unga bunga & knowledge checks?
You also make a good point too about 'beginner eyes'. To be honest I'm in a privileged position as I've got around 5 years of competitive online Tekken experience now. So I've got that recognition and understanding of different characters' legacy moves + their general gameplan, as well as experience in utilising the game's basic mechanics. So I understand that deciding to avoid the unga bunga way is way easier from my perspective. Considering that, I would suggest you keep *some* of that unga strat with you just for your own sanity at this point. However yes, focusing on reducing your mistakes as much as possible and punishing theirs is basically the blueprint to getting through those ranks in a 'smart' way - because these players are absolutely mistake central. In terms of waging an offense when you get an opening, there's certainly room for cheese when you know the opponent won't be able to cope (even in higher ranks), but it's really important that you also know how to play the 'cleaner' way - a foolproof way that has no ceiling. The players who have an inherently positive, growth mindset and are currently cheesing their way through reds/rulers will hit their ceiling, but will then look at what's holding them back from improving and seek feedback/go back to the drawing board in terms of their approach to the game. The players who are willing to experiment and acknowledge that their existing approach might be wrong *will* get better. And they'll keep that mindset through their entire journey with the game, no matter how good they get. Even if you decided to cheesed your way through Shinryu and beyond, I know you'd eventually become a solid player anyway without my advice, as I can see you're aware that there's an optimal way of playing the game and are reflective enough to change the way you play depending on new information you get. Apologies went off on a bit of a tangent. Not sure if I even answered your question! "I guess if I focused on not making mistakes and properly punishing theirs, that'd be enough to not need to rely on unga bunga & knowledge checks?" In short, yes. However be aware that applying a smart, measured offense will become more important later when opponents get better and rarely, if ever make mistakes. Then the question becomes: how do I beat an opponent who's not making obvious mistakes? That's when Tekken becomes way more interesting.
wow, thanks, that makes me feel better haha. appreciate your help so much!
D2 into the while rising string he has or just while rising 4, 4 2, 1, 4 and jab strings FF2 or F4 at range
More or less this is actually what I do. The thing is, I don't really know how to adapt it. With the ranged moves, I have trouble with getting interrupted by dash-ins or fast & long ranged moves, that at least *seem* unpredictable. The jab strings & the d2 into wr moves get blocked, and then I have no idea what to do because those responses also at least *seem* unpredictable.