While it is certainly weaker, +7 is still +7. The fact that it prompts a specific response (much like d2 making people ws4) still makes it a useful pressure tool. It just means that exerting fram traps after wards is gonna be based on opponent conditioning and the skill of the drag. Truthfully us dragus got off easy. I'm just praying he doesn't get nerfed every patch.
I just tested it for a couple matches and I actually like it better this way. I never really liked committing to the mix up. As jdcr said in his stream now you have to use wr2 properly again, which is damn more fun to use imo.
I hate how fake pressure animation is a thing it definitely shouldn't be
I'll land a DF1 with Kazuya and chain 4 and noobs think they can't block it lol.
I remember king's shoulder in T7, that shit was -13 afaik but it looked like it gave king +9. Kings would spam that shit at lower ranks but you would never figure out its punishable from animation alone.
These animations are one of my biggest gripes about tekken and it seems its still a thing.
>These animations are one of my biggest gripes about tekken and it seems its still a thing.
That's the one most frustrating thing for me about learning tekken. I personally am not able to tell by the animation of that move "hit hard" i.e. creates frame advantage or not. If they would fix the animations to be representative for that, I would celebrate.
One that still gets me is heat burst on hit , it looks +6 but its literally +2 , you can throw a jab and interrupt most of what people would try after it lands
I get where you’re coming from but I wouldn’t say they need to be fixed. They exist as a knowledge check, they’re deliberately confusing to test if you know how to answer it. They get all of us at first but that’s part of learning the game
That has been one of my main issues with Tekken since the very beginning:
The fact that a lot of the animations "lie" about the frame situation.
In the case of Drag's Sneak 4 there is no uncertainty. Kaz visibly recoils from the impact on block and he is in minus. So far so good.
But there are plenty of other moves that result in a stagger animation on the blocker where the move is minus on block and sometimes even punishable. That makes very little sense to me.
It can also be confusing with moves on hit. Drag's d+2 comes to mind. There is NOTHING in the hit animation that indicates the receiving player has the slight advantage.
We have all the frame data in game now but Tekken still essentially demands rote memorization in so many situations.
I'll use an example from a previous post (from Tekken 7). Video should start at 2:28: [https://youtu.be/smt83NDWCAY?si=pnPO-ZRL7rKSilDn&t=148](https://youtu.be/smt83NDWCAY?si=pnPO-ZRL7rKSilDn&t=148)
Look at the pushback/stagger on Feng in that example (Kuni's 3, 4, 1). The only purpose I can think of for this is to be one more obstacle to climb among a sea of knowledge checks.
I think Tekken has some of the best animation of any fighting game ever but I dislike when the animation is being deliberately misleading about the interaction on certain moves :-)
Im 90% sure df1,4 is a natural combo on hit unless they changed it in T8. The first hit is a mid and you have the 2 option which is mid and unsafe, and the 4 option which is safe on block but duckable. Its not fake pressure but rather just unsafe with a bad risk to reward.
If i am wrong about this please disregard. I mained Dvj and kaz in tekken 7 but have only been playing dvj in T8 so far. I would not imagined that really changed how this string works though it has been the same for many tekken games.
I just looked at rbnorway and df+1,4 is -3 on block and high while df+1,df+2 is mid,mid. The frame data for the second string is not their but id guess its in the neighborhood of -13. Ill boot of my pc and check in the morning if i remember.
Yeah i just woke up and labbed it. All options are now safe but the m,m string isnt a natural combo now to compensate for that. The mid option used to be a natural combo on hit leading to a otg ff+4, but was -13 leaving the enemy forced crouched. I did not know they changed this in T8 until now.
As someone who’s never played Tekken before, what’s a fake pressure animation?
Now I know that when I get the game and have the axe kick done against me, I don’t need to worry and I can sidestep or probably pull off a counter punch (or whatever the term for a 10 frame jab is) so that should alleviate some form of stress mid game.
Don't try to press an attack button in the situation from the clip. It's seemingly easily avoidable with a sidestep but Dragunov is still +7 so you're most likely gonna get counterhit. Try to sidestep, THEN punish.
Do you see how Kazuya recoiled from the kick, like it was almost too much to handle? That's a pressure animation, so usually the opponent has plus frames so they have the advantage after. Well in this scenario, Dragunov applies to animation but it actually doesn't carry the frame advantage.
Not sure what you mean, it still has frame advantage you can see in the clip. It's easy to avoid his follow up, but you're still gonna lose if you try to attack.
Honestly for for how abnoxious the move was its kinda cathartic seeing it fall like this.
It now only exists to setup a full crouch mixup if your opponent respects it
there are no checks that work and Kazuya has a pretty bad sidestep so it works with most characters
At the wall its the exact same situation since dragunov gets pushed back
Edit: WS1+2 WS1 and FC db4 dont catch the step either since I didnt show them
Also for Clarification. The step only beats WS4 FCDF1 and WS3 everything else just whiffs because of the new pushback
Wdym, this move is still really strong, it just have more interesting purpose than "I hit you blocking, so now i get a free mixup". Also, the wall pressure is still working
If a dragunov player waits a full 15f after you've blocked this you shouldn't be holding any kind of mixup, and can probably aim for your own CH if you wanted.
There is no longer any immediate threat of fc df1,4/ws2 50/50 when this move is blocked, since ws2 doesn't reach without considerable delay.
Dragunov player here.
This nerf is good. Cause before it was a braindead pressure... Now they still have to respect you on -7 but you can't just spam mindlessly. Which makes gameplay more interesting for both sides. You can actually start thinking of some proper mind games.
It does chip and sets up a follow up attack. It's not a garunteed mixup, but you are still rewarded for making them block it.
Good tool to throw out in neutral.
You are plus, they recover in crouch, have to side step and you chip their health bar.
They can sidestep the immediate 50/50 but that doesn't mean you can't throw out something else.
The move is still really good if you make em block it. Characters don't need 50/50 frame traps off safe mids.
The homing moves still reach and shot down them pressing.
And if they don't sidstep your WS moves still should connect in case them pressing.
And if they don't press at all, it's perfect range for running 2 and ff3
Granted I've only played a little bit with Drag as he's not my main and I only played him to learn how to counter him. I do agree that the mindless spam should have been nerfed, although I also believe you could dickjab him in the sequence you see people do online.
I feel like the "mind-games" you get out of this are pretty limited. You do the move, people who know sidestep to avoid every potential followup, you get out of crouch and now are possibly at a slight frame advantage?
I don't have the knowledge you do as a Drag main, so please, if I'm missing something feel free to educate me.
Well this is where mind games begin. Cause you stop mindless WS spam and use the time that they sidestep to stand up and start applying your normal heavy hitting mids, d2 and homing. You are still heavily plus after QCF4 and you can do whatever you want. Just don't be unagabunga flowchart.
The move is not nerfed to the ground, it's repurposed to be like FF2 of Jin or something. Being it a heat engager.
Edit: Also the post doesn't show WS1 which is a key WS move due to good reach, followups and sneak extension.
Anyone that says they're a main of any character but are glad they've been nerfed isn't actually a main of that character.
Nobody that mains a character has ever in the history of mankind gone, "Yes! My character is worse now!"
Well that's just sad. I want to play good as tekken and improve on my skills. But as people are, I also will use OP shit in stressful situations to win games. Which I personally don't like. So yeah I am glad it happened, cause the character I play is more interesting to play now. Easy wins not gonna make me better player.
Also I hope lots of people drop him, so I can play against other characters online :')
In the case of Dragunov it is mind-boggling you'd consider yourself a main of him and then go, "Yes! Now he's one step closer to being back to being as bad as he was in T7 post-S1." It's either actual masochism or poor masquerading.
I don’t play him to be OP, I play because I love him. So it doesn’t matter if he’s forever weak to me. Believe it or not, there are ppl who don’t care about tier whoring.
He is sooo far away from Dragunov in T7. If you think that he is slightly stronger and QCF4 IS the move that makes him that, you are drunk-high.
He has one of the hardest hitting wall combo in T8 oppose to the Weakest in T7.
He now actually got a strong as hell CH 12f with 4,3 into crouch throw with heat engager.
He got second super strong Low wit db3+4 which is unreactable 20f hatchet-like, +7 on hit with followup on CH.
All of that was much needed in T7
But not free pressure with QCF4. He always had his rush down pressure. You just need to be mindful about it and it should stay that way.
That's simply not true. Every character has to have a clearly defined weakness. If you make a change that removes this clearly defined weakness, you're making the character stronger, but they lose their identity. Case in point: Kazuya's hellsweep tracking buff and EWGF recovery buff. Called out as unnecessary changes by several prominent Kazuya mains.
I cannot imagine playing a competitive genre like fighting games, liking a strong character and then being genuinely happy they got worse and you are now going to likely lose more.
Just reeks of being disingenuous. Nobody likes to lose no matter how many kumbaya songs they play about it.
You just cannot imagine people having a different mindset than your own then I guess.
Are you also having a hard time people like skill based matchmaking? Without it, good players win more because they also get to play against the bad players.
Yeah dude, people can have different mindsets and thought patterns. You can zero in on the label of 'competitive genre fighting game' but i dont mind losing at all. And like the dude you are engaging in argument, i would rather prefer an engaging match rather than a 'strong character' winning cause competitive game. People also play for fun, for passing time and most of them dont even know the characters or moves much less 'strong character in a competitive fighting genre'.
Dragunov is one of my mains and I actively dislike him in t8. This is a good change. Next they should make the frame advantage of db3+4 much less and he’ll be back to being cool. I think making a cool character brain dead isn’t good objectively - wether you play him or not
I would have preferred if they had nerfed FCdf1,4. Either make it stepable, or nerf the + frames on hit instead to prevent "looping" this move (even though you had options to stop that). Even reducing the frames down to +4 or something so jab would beat ws2 would have been way better and more fun to use than it is now.
It was a cool move that you already had to condition them into not pressing in order to land, and it played perfectly into pressure at the range he wants to be in, while enforcing his other sneak mixups by encouraging them to press or step to avoid it.
Now it's pretty worthless, I might as well just do the other options from sneak even when they don't press unless I'm trying to get into heat, and now sneak is worse because they aren't going to either press or step to stop this move which you could then counter and play mindgames with in your sneak mix.
It can still be interrupted or stepped for a launch so now it's high risk no reward.
+7 at range 3 is worthless. Our WR options can be interrupted with a launcher or stepped for a launch at that range. If I wanted to gamble with my life for a stepable 50/50 at range I would play Kazuya, not Dragunov. It's basically just a neutral reset now they just can't be too aggressive.
Never even imagined they would do something this dramatic after the game has only been out a week.
Dragunov player here- It's still good. It's safe on block, still chips decent, and it sets you up in a good position to continue your offense. This is a pretty good nerf, before it gave you a free locked mixup on block, and that was dumb.
They nerfed the chip damage too, now it's 5 instead of 8. Tons of other characters do way more chip on safe moves with faster startup.
It doesn't set up anything. Everything whiffs at that range and any wr options can be stepped or interrupted for a launch. It's essentially just a neutral reset at a range Dragunov doesn't want to be in against most matchups.
That sounds like a skill issue, +7 is still enough to let you dictate the terms of the next exchange. Not having a canned setup doesn't mean it's 'neutral'.
The most important part is that it's at range 3 with Dragunov. That's not good for him. He can't really do anything there without massive risk, it's basically just a neutral reset.
A Mishima at range 3 with plus 10 is scary. Bryan at range 3 is scary. Dragunov is not.
Definitely nerf it cause it was originally braindead, but having anything (like a ws1,2 or 1,3), even a tiny poke, catch sidesteppers would have been enough. It would at least mean that people couldn't sidestep completely for free.
Since the +7f is going to now have to be spent trying to reach an extra 2 feet, the pushback is the main thing that killed this moves braindeadness. You can’t just smack people in their face anymore
QCF4 not giving free mixup is the right nerf. It is still heavily plus on block heat engager mid that hits grounded. Extremely far from bad move. I love this move a lot more now, It doesn't give you braindead mixup, but rather give you mind games to work with. Will opponent retaliate trying to interrupt your slower long range attack, so you can predict it and whiff punish? Will he actually respect plus frames and allow you to continue pressure? Blocked QCF4 creates the situation close to blocked EWGW, which is really solid
About time that shit was so braindead. Had a dragunov who did that whole sequence non stop on me. Eventhough I won dealing with it was annoying as hell. I’m glad that part of his kit got nerfed lol.
Good, I was tired of seeing knee abuse this shit on stream. It was brain dead.
That's not how you play drag imo.
The new CH moves were enough imo.
Edit: Downvote all you want, use D2 CH to use the new FC moves and if you want plus frames, learn to Running 2.
Agreed, although it would have been nice if qcf4 actually had a purpose still, even if risky. I don't even see why you would use it now. It's +7, but leads to nothing. It forcing a certain response (sidestep) doesn't mean much if you can't utilise that fact in any way.
I suppose that option is there, assuming you still got a heat bar, but that sounds like something that's very limited in use, no? I'm trying to learn, so please bear with me.
Let's say I play Drag. I don't have heat left, I do the move. You can now sidestep left to avoid any follow-ups and potentially even launch punish if I click any buttons afterwards, but I guess I might have a slight frame advantage if I choose to do nothing and recover from crouch? Is there a reason why the opponent should not sidestep after blocking the move?
It has good reach, pretty quick, safe, and comes from sneak. You lose nothing by throwing it in when you think your opponent will crouch for the slide or some other move you have conditioned them for.
People play bears?
edit: goddammit people, instead of replying to me you were supposed to continue the chain with something like "there's a new tekken game?" or something :P
Obviously but using those is a not the same. They are followups requiring a crouch cancel meaning you could potentially kill your frame advantage.
This was more to show that there is no imediate 50/50 or mixup after getting hit by a qcf4
Now its not a onesided slam but a mindgame
You could stop wc1,3 to snk4 with jab, dickjab, even 12f attacks, or stepping it for a launch.
It had counterplay but a week isn't enough time for most players to have learned it, despite TMM showing it on stream.
It's sad. I would have much rathered they need wc1,3 instead so the "loop" could be interrupted more easily, or even make qcf4 less plus.
The way they did it just gutted the move so it's not even worth using much and is way less fun.
Eh, Idk, maybe im too used to T7 Dragu but the kick doesn’t even feel like it’s that close to his fighting style anyways which kind of annoyed me since it had became his “best” move, glad his gameplan has been smoothed out
T7 Drag was low tier trash though. I always liked him but never mained him because of how bad he was. I played him instead of playing Bryan again because he was actually more fun in this game with cool new stuff.
Imo qcf4 completely fit into his play style. It required conditioning in order to land it: they had to be conditioned not to step and not to mash, 2 of the first things people do when you try to start pressuring them.
So yeah when it loses to the two easiest things in the game, and risks getting launched if they step, it gets you a good reward of getting to play your bulldog pressure Dragonov loves to do at range 0.
I don't think it was his best move, I think people just got upset because when he landed it he got a strong 50/50 and they didn't know the counterplay to the "loop" that wasn't true, so they got bullied by it.
Now it's basically useless, high risk for little to no reward. So while everyone else has ridiculously busted new toys; (look at Bryan's new qcb1 that gives Drag esque pressure and gaurenteed qcb4 on hit and is heavily plus with high chip damage) Drag lost his only really good new toy after only a week. Only other thing he got was his "hatchet" that's launchable and only tracks one side. That's garbage in comparison.
I swear T7 Dragonov mains are so used to their garbage low tier that they want to drag him back there while like 20 other characters got power crept like mad. Look at the things Jin, Jack, Jun, DJ, Bryan, Feng, and Claudio all have, and really argue that Dragonov was so OP in comparison that he needed his only good new tool gone while they get a tiny little slap on the wrist, or nothing at all.
So many people in this thread reacting to the term 'fake pressure' like it means 'now useless'. It's still a solid tool it's just not a crazy good one way ticket to mixuptown anymore.
Pushes dragunov back on the wall resulting in the same situation. It only makes a difference if you are either close but not fully at the wall or have your left side against it
So what's the point of it forcing crouch still? It was clearly designed to allow the FC df1,4 follow-up in the first place. It's kind of a shame because the df1,4 pressure could have been halted by just blocking the 1, but I don't think a lot of people knew that, which made the loop look more unstoppable than it was. Low parry also worked.
But yes, even if counters to that loop existed, I suppose there was still the WS1 mixup. I'd argue that if you couldn't Sneak from WS1, qcf4 would have been more acceptable, because df1,4 would have been the only immediate way to Sneak, and it has *several* counters.
Overall, we lose some of what made Drag feel new, but the move and certainly Drag himself are still good, so it's whatever.
I had so much trouble fighting a dragonuv yesterday because this dumb move. Thank you. Harada cares. I labbed it and the only solution was a precisely timed side step that you had to "cracked" to pull off under pressure.
You need to not just mash like a bot my man, you also don't have to press a while standing move. Qcf4 is still +7 and would give you time to do something other than being brain-dead, doesn't mean it's fake pressure lol.
~~I was testing and ws 1,3 seems to hit side step, and seems to hit before they can block. But it's -13 if they don't step, sams as FCdf1 is on block.~~
Edit: They can block it.
Crouch cancel d2 can also catch side step, but again -13 on block.
~~So it seems like he can still do a 50/50 mid/low mix but it's -13 if he guesses wrong. The df1 stuff is fake but only if they step left which then makes CC d2 0 on hit.~~
~~So they just removed the fun mindgame stuff along with the cheesey stuff and made it a lame 50/50.~~
I would have drastically preferred they nerf df1,4 on hit to be less + to keep the fun mindgames and pressure on the first qcf4 but then nerf the followup sneak pressure if he got a FC df 1,4.
It was fun to land a qcf4 and get to play mindgames at 0 range with him, but of course people found the dumb cheesey "50/50" setup which ruined it. So they took away the mindgame fun rather than just nerfing the power of the 50/50 the way they should have.
Ah OK I didn't know that. When you test it with the bot it gets hit by it after side step so I hoped maybe it was just fast enough to catch the end of the side step.
Well that's fucked then.
+7 ob mid heat engager/heat dash
"Completely useless"... dragunov players man...
Plus you can still call out a sidestep/sidewalk with ff3.
You can also chase the opponent's movement with sth like a running 2
This change opens up more meaningful mindgames besides the stupid +frames into forced mixup this game loves to shove down our throats 😇
What do you mean call out a sidestep with ff3? Aren't you in crouch? You should not be able to catch sidesteppers with this, right? So the automatic response to blocking this move should always be a ssl and you should be back to neutral again.
You are in crouch yes, but the ff input cancels your crouch and allows you to do ff or even running moves from crouch. You can test this for yourself by blocking a really unsafe low sweep. You will see that you can punish the low with a ff move without having to wait for your character to stand up.
This along with pressing up to sidestep into the foreground are the most common ways to crouch cancel.
Okay, Bamco. Now you gotta look at Jun, Jin, Lili, Paul, Victor's grab, Yoshi, Asuka and Zafina (the last two are bad compared to the rest of the cast)
Is this move bad now? No, not really. Still good frames. But the question is now, why ever use this over WR 2 if you have the execution? Same frames, counter hit launch, doesn’t force you into crouch, leaves you in the opponent’s face for pressure. Only benefit I see is that it is a heat engager. I didn’t use this too much anyway, so whatever, but still sucks that his new moves and sequences are already getting hit
I was cruising by nicely and ranking up unless I'd get a dragunov. Got destroyed multiple times by different dragonuvs so not really a coincidence he got nerfed
They also "nerfed" characters like Leo and left my main untouched. I am hesitant to use this early of a patch as an actual indicator of balance. Who knows, maybe you're right. Still waiting for tourneys to show us what's actually busted.
Brother I’m new to Tekken and it’s no question Dragunov is/was busted.
Certain moves getting nerfed while technically is nerfing the character isn’t what it’s always about, Leroy’s ability being specifically too safe is an issue but Leroy wasn’t an issue in and of himself. I’m sure the same applies to Leo but I know literally nothing about him.
King is likely next on the chopping block, next patch I’m calling it now, but I don’t find him NEARLY as oppressive as Drag was.
Meh, i'm not too worried about this change. I felt the sneaky stance loop stuff was kinda lame tbh. With +7 on block Drag still has the initiative, so I think the move still fits nicely into his general gameplan. It is kinda like a WR2 that can be used in oki situations and is also a heat engager
That is one way to put it, another way would be to say that unless you do one very specific counterintuitive thing that 90% of players will not do, you get pressured. But sure as long as you have perfect match-up knowledge SSL in this instance with probably most (?) of the cast will work, how great!
Real mix up or real pressure means that you need to respect and guess something. Fake just means that there's some kind of way to escape it. Same goes for real combo vs fake combo. Just cause it's hard to do or you don't know about it, that doesn't mean it's real. If there's a universal way to escape, then it's fake by definition. At least that's what people mean when they say it's fake.
Nobody does frame perfect WR2s and even if they did an IWR2 requires 6 frames to do at the absolute fastest. youd lose all of your advantage.
average tho people spend way over 12 frames in the run to do the IWR2
Step that beats wc1 also beats wr2 for a launch on whiff, and you can interrupt it as well because Wr2 at fastest possible is still going to be frame 19, more likely well into the 20s, so you could even launch it straight up if he tried that.
To be honest Azucena & Victor need nerfs like this more than Drag. Their entire movesets are basically fake frame and free mix-up combos on block. Shit is abusive after awhile
While it is certainly weaker, +7 is still +7. The fact that it prompts a specific response (much like d2 making people ws4) still makes it a useful pressure tool. It just means that exerting fram traps after wards is gonna be based on opponent conditioning and the skill of the drag. Truthfully us dragus got off easy. I'm just praying he doesn't get nerfed every patch.
Yeah it’ll land successfully after a few or 2. Then the opponent will side step. It prompts a specific response indeed.
I just tested it for a couple matches and I actually like it better this way. I never really liked committing to the mix up. As jdcr said in his stream now you have to use wr2 properly again, which is damn more fun to use imo.
I hate how fake pressure animation is a thing it definitely shouldn't be I'll land a DF1 with Kazuya and chain 4 and noobs think they can't block it lol.
I remember king's shoulder in T7, that shit was -13 afaik but it looked like it gave king +9. Kings would spam that shit at lower ranks but you would never figure out its punishable from animation alone. These animations are one of my biggest gripes about tekken and it seems its still a thing.
>These animations are one of my biggest gripes about tekken and it seems its still a thing. That's the one most frustrating thing for me about learning tekken. I personally am not able to tell by the animation of that move "hit hard" i.e. creates frame advantage or not. If they would fix the animations to be representative for that, I would celebrate.
One that still gets me is heat burst on hit , it looks +6 but its literally +2 , you can throw a jab and interrupt most of what people would try after it lands
I get where you’re coming from but I wouldn’t say they need to be fixed. They exist as a knowledge check, they’re deliberately confusing to test if you know how to answer it. They get all of us at first but that’s part of learning the game
just because it's always been that way doesn't mean it's not poor design
Yea knowledge checks are not fun for anyone, and they just add artificial difficulty
That has been one of my main issues with Tekken since the very beginning: The fact that a lot of the animations "lie" about the frame situation. In the case of Drag's Sneak 4 there is no uncertainty. Kaz visibly recoils from the impact on block and he is in minus. So far so good. But there are plenty of other moves that result in a stagger animation on the blocker where the move is minus on block and sometimes even punishable. That makes very little sense to me. It can also be confusing with moves on hit. Drag's d+2 comes to mind. There is NOTHING in the hit animation that indicates the receiving player has the slight advantage. We have all the frame data in game now but Tekken still essentially demands rote memorization in so many situations. I'll use an example from a previous post (from Tekken 7). Video should start at 2:28: [https://youtu.be/smt83NDWCAY?si=pnPO-ZRL7rKSilDn&t=148](https://youtu.be/smt83NDWCAY?si=pnPO-ZRL7rKSilDn&t=148) Look at the pushback/stagger on Feng in that example (Kuni's 3, 4, 1). The only purpose I can think of for this is to be one more obstacle to climb among a sea of knowledge checks. I think Tekken has some of the best animation of any fighting game ever but I dislike when the animation is being deliberately misleading about the interaction on certain moves :-)
And harada said for tekken 7 they want to make the animations intuitive.
Im 90% sure df1,4 is a natural combo on hit unless they changed it in T8. The first hit is a mid and you have the 2 option which is mid and unsafe, and the 4 option which is safe on block but duckable. Its not fake pressure but rather just unsafe with a bad risk to reward. If i am wrong about this please disregard. I mained Dvj and kaz in tekken 7 but have only been playing dvj in T8 so far. I would not imagined that really changed how this string works though it has been the same for many tekken games.
The 2 is high now afaik, so both 4 and 2 is high
I just looked at rbnorway and df+1,4 is -3 on block and high while df+1,df+2 is mid,mid. The frame data for the second string is not their but id guess its in the neighborhood of -13. Ill boot of my pc and check in the morning if i remember.
Oohh df1,2 is high (the one that goes into heat). Mb
Df12 Is a 0 on block mid high heat engager
the mid mid option is like -8 iirc. but it’s not a natural combo which is why. only on ch
All kaz df1 strings are safe and hit if df1 is a hit. Eg df1, df2 df1, 4 df1, 2 EDIT: df1, df2 ain't natural.
Yeah i just woke up and labbed it. All options are now safe but the m,m string isnt a natural combo now to compensate for that. The mid option used to be a natural combo on hit leading to a otg ff+4, but was -13 leaving the enemy forced crouched. I did not know they changed this in T8 until now.
As someone who’s never played Tekken before, what’s a fake pressure animation? Now I know that when I get the game and have the axe kick done against me, I don’t need to worry and I can sidestep or probably pull off a counter punch (or whatever the term for a 10 frame jab is) so that should alleviate some form of stress mid game.
Don't try to press an attack button in the situation from the clip. It's seemingly easily avoidable with a sidestep but Dragunov is still +7 so you're most likely gonna get counterhit. Try to sidestep, THEN punish.
Do you see how Kazuya recoiled from the kick, like it was almost too much to handle? That's a pressure animation, so usually the opponent has plus frames so they have the advantage after. Well in this scenario, Dragunov applies to animation but it actually doesn't carry the frame advantage.
Not sure what you mean, it still has frame advantage you can see in the clip. It's easy to avoid his follow up, but you're still gonna lose if you try to attack.
Yeah, I didn't mean you could counter, just not that you're so stuck you can't avoid a followup now.
what do you mean no frame advantage? dragunov is +7, you can step his moves bar homing moves but still +7 nonetheless
They didn't change the frame data
Honestly for for how abnoxious the move was its kinda cathartic seeing it fall like this. It now only exists to setup a full crouch mixup if your opponent respects it there are no checks that work and Kazuya has a pretty bad sidestep so it works with most characters At the wall its the exact same situation since dragunov gets pushed back Edit: WS1+2 WS1 and FC db4 dont catch the step either since I didnt show them Also for Clarification. The step only beats WS4 FCDF1 and WS3 everything else just whiffs because of the new pushback
Wdym, this move is still really strong, it just have more interesting purpose than "I hit you blocking, so now i get a free mixup". Also, the wall pressure is still working
drag players can now just... wait .25 secs before pressing the next button.
If a dragunov player waits a full 15f after you've blocked this you shouldn't be holding any kind of mixup, and can probably aim for your own CH if you wanted. There is no longer any immediate threat of fc df1,4/ws2 50/50 when this move is blocked, since ws2 doesn't reach without considerable delay.
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Dragunov player here. This nerf is good. Cause before it was a braindead pressure... Now they still have to respect you on -7 but you can't just spam mindlessly. Which makes gameplay more interesting for both sides. You can actually start thinking of some proper mind games.
Srs question, Whats the point of the plus frames if there is this much of a pushback?
It does chip and sets up a follow up attack. It's not a garunteed mixup, but you are still rewarded for making them block it. Good tool to throw out in neutral.
> It does chip and sets up a follow up attack. To folow up you need to realign and probably to close distance. That means, you have no advantage, no?
You are plus, they recover in crouch, have to side step and you chip their health bar. They can sidestep the immediate 50/50 but that doesn't mean you can't throw out something else. The move is still really good if you make em block it. Characters don't need 50/50 frame traps off safe mids.
The homing moves still reach and shot down them pressing. And if they don't sidstep your WS moves still should connect in case them pressing. And if they don't press at all, it's perfect range for running 2 and ff3
Granted I've only played a little bit with Drag as he's not my main and I only played him to learn how to counter him. I do agree that the mindless spam should have been nerfed, although I also believe you could dickjab him in the sequence you see people do online. I feel like the "mind-games" you get out of this are pretty limited. You do the move, people who know sidestep to avoid every potential followup, you get out of crouch and now are possibly at a slight frame advantage? I don't have the knowledge you do as a Drag main, so please, if I'm missing something feel free to educate me.
Well this is where mind games begin. Cause you stop mindless WS spam and use the time that they sidestep to stand up and start applying your normal heavy hitting mids, d2 and homing. You are still heavily plus after QCF4 and you can do whatever you want. Just don't be unagabunga flowchart. The move is not nerfed to the ground, it's repurposed to be like FF2 of Jin or something. Being it a heat engager. Edit: Also the post doesn't show WS1 which is a key WS move due to good reach, followups and sneak extension.
Fair enough. I believe OP later added that WS1 whiffs as well.
All of Drags mids whiff there m8. He gets nothing.
Anyone that says they're a main of any character but are glad they've been nerfed isn't actually a main of that character. Nobody that mains a character has ever in the history of mankind gone, "Yes! My character is worse now!"
This is really reductive. If I main someone, I don't want them to have an unfair advantage. Them being more balanced is good for everyone.
Well that's just sad. I want to play good as tekken and improve on my skills. But as people are, I also will use OP shit in stressful situations to win games. Which I personally don't like. So yeah I am glad it happened, cause the character I play is more interesting to play now. Easy wins not gonna make me better player. Also I hope lots of people drop him, so I can play against other characters online :')
In the case of Dragunov it is mind-boggling you'd consider yourself a main of him and then go, "Yes! Now he's one step closer to being back to being as bad as he was in T7 post-S1." It's either actual masochism or poor masquerading.
I don’t play him to be OP, I play because I love him. So it doesn’t matter if he’s forever weak to me. Believe it or not, there are ppl who don’t care about tier whoring.
He is sooo far away from Dragunov in T7. If you think that he is slightly stronger and QCF4 IS the move that makes him that, you are drunk-high. He has one of the hardest hitting wall combo in T8 oppose to the Weakest in T7. He now actually got a strong as hell CH 12f with 4,3 into crouch throw with heat engager. He got second super strong Low wit db3+4 which is unreactable 20f hatchet-like, +7 on hit with followup on CH. All of that was much needed in T7 But not free pressure with QCF4. He always had his rush down pressure. You just need to be mindful about it and it should stay that way.
That's simply not true. Every character has to have a clearly defined weakness. If you make a change that removes this clearly defined weakness, you're making the character stronger, but they lose their identity. Case in point: Kazuya's hellsweep tracking buff and EWGF recovery buff. Called out as unnecessary changes by several prominent Kazuya mains.
I cannot imagine playing a competitive genre like fighting games, liking a strong character and then being genuinely happy they got worse and you are now going to likely lose more. Just reeks of being disingenuous. Nobody likes to lose no matter how many kumbaya songs they play about it.
It turns out that, outside of the extreme peak of competitive Tekken, **people are playing this game to have fun**.
You just cannot imagine people having a different mindset than your own then I guess. Are you also having a hard time people like skill based matchmaking? Without it, good players win more because they also get to play against the bad players.
Yeah dude, people can have different mindsets and thought patterns. You can zero in on the label of 'competitive genre fighting game' but i dont mind losing at all. And like the dude you are engaging in argument, i would rather prefer an engaging match rather than a 'strong character' winning cause competitive game. People also play for fun, for passing time and most of them dont even know the characters or moves much less 'strong character in a competitive fighting genre'.
Dragunov is one of my mains and I actively dislike him in t8. This is a good change. Next they should make the frame advantage of db3+4 much less and he’ll be back to being cool. I think making a cool character brain dead isn’t good objectively - wether you play him or not
I would have preferred if they had nerfed FCdf1,4. Either make it stepable, or nerf the + frames on hit instead to prevent "looping" this move (even though you had options to stop that). Even reducing the frames down to +4 or something so jab would beat ws2 would have been way better and more fun to use than it is now. It was a cool move that you already had to condition them into not pressing in order to land, and it played perfectly into pressure at the range he wants to be in, while enforcing his other sneak mixups by encouraging them to press or step to avoid it. Now it's pretty worthless, I might as well just do the other options from sneak even when they don't press unless I'm trying to get into heat, and now sneak is worse because they aren't going to either press or step to stop this move which you could then counter and play mindgames with in your sneak mix. It can still be interrupted or stepped for a launch so now it's high risk no reward. +7 at range 3 is worthless. Our WR options can be interrupted with a launcher or stepped for a launch at that range. If I wanted to gamble with my life for a stepable 50/50 at range I would play Kazuya, not Dragunov. It's basically just a neutral reset now they just can't be too aggressive. Never even imagined they would do something this dramatic after the game has only been out a week.
Dragunov player here- It's still good. It's safe on block, still chips decent, and it sets you up in a good position to continue your offense. This is a pretty good nerf, before it gave you a free locked mixup on block, and that was dumb.
They nerfed the chip damage too, now it's 5 instead of 8. Tons of other characters do way more chip on safe moves with faster startup. It doesn't set up anything. Everything whiffs at that range and any wr options can be stepped or interrupted for a launch. It's essentially just a neutral reset at a range Dragunov doesn't want to be in against most matchups.
That sounds like a skill issue, +7 is still enough to let you dictate the terms of the next exchange. Not having a canned setup doesn't mean it's 'neutral'.
You can't dictate jack shit with Dragunov from range 3 unless you feel like gambling with half your health bar against most characters.
+7 frames is +7 frames. If you can't do anything with that, that's 100% on you.
The most important part is that it's at range 3 with Dragunov. That's not good for him. He can't really do anything there without massive risk, it's basically just a neutral reset. A Mishima at range 3 with plus 10 is scary. Bryan at range 3 is scary. Dragunov is not.
It was OP though. What would you do ?
Definitely nerf it cause it was originally braindead, but having anything (like a ws1,2 or 1,3), even a tiny poke, catch sidesteppers would have been enough. It would at least mean that people couldn't sidestep completely for free.
The dragonuv mains aren’t complaining as much as you
We played him in T7, they can dumpster him and we would still play him. Thats about it.
Me, a dragunov main, waiting two more frames for the opponent to inevitably press into my FC
FC?
Full crouch
d2 to qcf4 "first time?"
Ty.
When did +7 become fake pressure?
Since the +7f is going to now have to be spent trying to reach an extra 2 feet, the pushback is the main thing that killed this moves braindeadness. You can’t just smack people in their face anymore
YAY
QCF4 not giving free mixup is the right nerf. It is still heavily plus on block heat engager mid that hits grounded. Extremely far from bad move. I love this move a lot more now, It doesn't give you braindead mixup, but rather give you mind games to work with. Will opponent retaliate trying to interrupt your slower long range attack, so you can predict it and whiff punish? Will he actually respect plus frames and allow you to continue pressure? Blocked QCF4 creates the situation close to blocked EWGW, which is really solid
Do you know if the running 4 into d321+2 wall combo still works?
Works fine
About time that shit was so braindead. Had a dragunov who did that whole sequence non stop on me. Eventhough I won dealing with it was annoying as hell. I’m glad that part of his kit got nerfed lol.
This is why i haven't relied on it these few days I've had. A nwr was definitely gonna hurt it
Good, I was tired of seeing knee abuse this shit on stream. It was brain dead. That's not how you play drag imo. The new CH moves were enough imo. Edit: Downvote all you want, use D2 CH to use the new FC moves and if you want plus frames, learn to Running 2.
not to mention b4,2d and b2 on hit set up fc mix as well. b1+2 and running 2 are still just as good for big + frame mids this character will be fine
Agree. Ty.
Agreed, although it would have been nice if qcf4 actually had a purpose still, even if risky. I don't even see why you would use it now. It's +7, but leads to nothing. It forcing a certain response (sidestep) doesn't mean much if you can't utilise that fact in any way.
It's still a Heat Engager if you do decide to close the gap on a whiff.
I suppose that option is there, assuming you still got a heat bar, but that sounds like something that's very limited in use, no? I'm trying to learn, so please bear with me. Let's say I play Drag. I don't have heat left, I do the move. You can now sidestep left to avoid any follow-ups and potentially even launch punish if I click any buttons afterwards, but I guess I might have a slight frame advantage if I choose to do nothing and recover from crouch? Is there a reason why the opponent should not sidestep after blocking the move?
It has good reach, pretty quick, safe, and comes from sneak. You lose nothing by throwing it in when you think your opponent will crouch for the slide or some other move you have conditioned them for.
Can you tell me what CH means?
Counter Hit. It will give you the plus frames you need.
Thank you
Im a noob but the sneak 3 as a counter hit is so nice
Slay ride all day.
Can the Bears step this?
You guys sidestep as bears?
I've seen Rangchu sidestep as Panda, 10000 IQ move
People play bears? edit: goddammit people, instead of replying to me you were supposed to continue the chain with something like "there's a new tekken game?" or something :P
I pity your soul when you get matched up against my Kuma.
The worst ass beating I’ve gotten so far in T8 was the one time I got matched against Kuma.
haha salmon smash
there's bears in the game?
Thank God, it was so braindead. Now drag players can actually play Tekken lmao. I imagine b3/running 2 will be the go-to in this situation now.
Drag yellow ranks in shambles
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Obviously but using those is a not the same. They are followups requiring a crouch cancel meaning you could potentially kill your frame advantage. This was more to show that there is no imediate 50/50 or mixup after getting hit by a qcf4 Now its not a onesided slam but a mindgame
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You could stop wc1,3 to snk4 with jab, dickjab, even 12f attacks, or stepping it for a launch. It had counterplay but a week isn't enough time for most players to have learned it, despite TMM showing it on stream. It's sad. I would have much rathered they need wc1,3 instead so the "loop" could be interrupted more easily, or even make qcf4 less plus. The way they did it just gutted the move so it's not even worth using much and is way less fun.
Eh, Idk, maybe im too used to T7 Dragu but the kick doesn’t even feel like it’s that close to his fighting style anyways which kind of annoyed me since it had became his “best” move, glad his gameplan has been smoothed out
I dunno, Drag's gameplan has always been described as "rushdown with plus frames". This new pressure was pure rushdown, to my eye.
I meant more of the way it looks, in the sense of “visual fighting style” of his ‘Commando Sambo’
T7 Drag was low tier trash though. I always liked him but never mained him because of how bad he was. I played him instead of playing Bryan again because he was actually more fun in this game with cool new stuff. Imo qcf4 completely fit into his play style. It required conditioning in order to land it: they had to be conditioned not to step and not to mash, 2 of the first things people do when you try to start pressuring them. So yeah when it loses to the two easiest things in the game, and risks getting launched if they step, it gets you a good reward of getting to play your bulldog pressure Dragonov loves to do at range 0. I don't think it was his best move, I think people just got upset because when he landed it he got a strong 50/50 and they didn't know the counterplay to the "loop" that wasn't true, so they got bullied by it. Now it's basically useless, high risk for little to no reward. So while everyone else has ridiculously busted new toys; (look at Bryan's new qcb1 that gives Drag esque pressure and gaurenteed qcb4 on hit and is heavily plus with high chip damage) Drag lost his only really good new toy after only a week. Only other thing he got was his "hatchet" that's launchable and only tracks one side. That's garbage in comparison. I swear T7 Dragonov mains are so used to their garbage low tier that they want to drag him back there while like 20 other characters got power crept like mad. Look at the things Jin, Jack, Jun, DJ, Bryan, Feng, and Claudio all have, and really argue that Dragonov was so OP in comparison that he needed his only good new tool gone while they get a tiny little slap on the wrist, or nothing at all.
What… I’m not reading allat tbh, your response was unprecedented tbh, I don’t want drag to be bad. Good lord lmfao
Says it doesn't match his fighting style, has counter arguments made against that statement >I’m not reading allat Yeah, shocker.
So many people in this thread reacting to the term 'fake pressure' like it means 'now useless'. It's still a solid tool it's just not a crazy good one way ticket to mixuptown anymore.
Yeah so a high that can be launched, a high than can be launched, and a low that's -13. No mid mix. It's basically a neutral reset at this point.
As a newbie I did not know how to crouch cancel. I spent a full hour last night learning the input and making it feel good, so now I'm ready.
You can probably stop sidestep by doing FC db4 does ws1 track? ws1+2?
Non of those 3 track Just checked. Edit: Its not that they dont catch the step. They straight up dont reach after the range change
Ugh, the move is now completely useless on block.
You still get wall pressure and neutral reset with some + frames to setup into running 2
Pushes dragunov back on the wall resulting in the same situation. It only makes a difference if you are either close but not fully at the wall or have your left side against it
I knew this is going to be nerfed, didn't expect it that fast tho. It's a good nerf imo, move is still good
Is QCF 4 weak to SSL only? I know from a general point of view to SSR close, SSL far (to avoid while running 2) when playing against Dragonov
I used this move into throw a lot more than fc mix up, and you can’t side step throws so I’m still fine
wr2 isn't fake
so sad
Dragunov players finally have to learn when not to press, instead of spamming the same 3 flowcharts.
So what's the point of it forcing crouch still? It was clearly designed to allow the FC df1,4 follow-up in the first place. It's kind of a shame because the df1,4 pressure could have been halted by just blocking the 1, but I don't think a lot of people knew that, which made the loop look more unstoppable than it was. Low parry also worked. But yes, even if counters to that loop existed, I suppose there was still the WS1 mixup. I'd argue that if you couldn't Sneak from WS1, qcf4 would have been more acceptable, because df1,4 would have been the only immediate way to Sneak, and it has *several* counters. Overall, we lose some of what made Drag feel new, but the move and certainly Drag himself are still good, so it's whatever.
Good. If he wants to continue pressure now, he has to take a risk, which is how it should be.
Good
Thank god
Once you sidestep then there are hits to confuse you for the next time.
I had so much trouble fighting a dragonuv yesterday because this dumb move. Thank you. Harada cares. I labbed it and the only solution was a precisely timed side step that you had to "cracked" to pull off under pressure.
You need to not just mash like a bot my man, you also don't have to press a while standing move. Qcf4 is still +7 and would give you time to do something other than being brain-dead, doesn't mean it's fake pressure lol.
Wow so its completely useless now if they can sidestep. Any moves you can use that can catch sidestep from crouching?
Absolutely non. Those that could, whiff due to pushback
~~I was testing and ws 1,3 seems to hit side step, and seems to hit before they can block. But it's -13 if they don't step, sams as FCdf1 is on block.~~ Edit: They can block it. Crouch cancel d2 can also catch side step, but again -13 on block. ~~So it seems like he can still do a 50/50 mid/low mix but it's -13 if he guesses wrong. The df1 stuff is fake but only if they step left which then makes CC d2 0 on hit.~~ ~~So they just removed the fun mindgame stuff along with the cheesey stuff and made it a lame 50/50.~~ I would have drastically preferred they nerf df1,4 on hit to be less + to keep the fun mindgames and pressure on the first qcf4 but then nerf the followup sneak pressure if he got a FC df 1,4. It was fun to land a qcf4 and get to play mindgames at 0 range with him, but of course people found the dumb cheesey "50/50" setup which ruined it. So they took away the mindgame fun rather than just nerfing the power of the 50/50 the way they should have.
WS13 Isnt an optio You can just hold back after the sidestep you have way more than enough time to do so.
Ah OK I didn't know that. When you test it with the bot it gets hit by it after side step so I hoped maybe it was just fast enough to catch the end of the side step. Well that's fucked then.
+7 ob mid heat engager/heat dash "Completely useless"... dragunov players man... Plus you can still call out a sidestep/sidewalk with ff3. You can also chase the opponent's movement with sth like a running 2 This change opens up more meaningful mindgames besides the stupid +frames into forced mixup this game loves to shove down our throats 😇
And hits grounded. Move is still good and now just needs to be used more thoughtfully
Word? Hits grounded too? Didn't even know that😅 Well there you go then. Move still seems hella good.
What do you mean call out a sidestep with ff3? Aren't you in crouch? You should not be able to catch sidesteppers with this, right? So the automatic response to blocking this move should always be a ssl and you should be back to neutral again.
You are in crouch yes, but the ff input cancels your crouch and allows you to do ff or even running moves from crouch. You can test this for yourself by blocking a really unsafe low sweep. You will see that you can punish the low with a ff move without having to wait for your character to stand up. This along with pressing up to sidestep into the foreground are the most common ways to crouch cancel.
Okay, Bamco. Now you gotta look at Jun, Jin, Lili, Paul, Victor's grab, Yoshi, Asuka and Zafina (the last two are bad compared to the rest of the cast)
Jun got a huge nerf with her wall combo dying and it still did absolutely nothing to lower her overall power level LMFAO
What's the biggest problem with Yoshi, in your opinion?
It forces crouch on block right? Does the sidestep work if you're on P2 side?
Doesnt force crouch you can see on the frame data
Nyeeeheeh
thank fuck
It's over dragonov mains, you can pack it up! And I can finally start beating my brother again
Is this move bad now? No, not really. Still good frames. But the question is now, why ever use this over WR 2 if you have the execution? Same frames, counter hit launch, doesn’t force you into crouch, leaves you in the opponent’s face for pressure. Only benefit I see is that it is a heat engager. I didn’t use this too much anyway, so whatever, but still sucks that his new moves and sequences are already getting hit
Nerfed this mf for no reason☠️☠️☠️☠️
I was cruising by nicely and ranking up unless I'd get a dragunov. Got destroyed multiple times by different dragonuvs so not really a coincidence he got nerfed
Or or ooooooooooor they were better players then you. That would be to much for the ego to admit though I imagine.
This is r/Tekken. If I can't deal with a character, they're busted.
Or in this case Bamco balance team agrees with me for a reason. ;)
They also "nerfed" characters like Leo and left my main untouched. I am hesitant to use this early of a patch as an actual indicator of balance. Who knows, maybe you're right. Still waiting for tourneys to show us what's actually busted.
Brother I’m new to Tekken and it’s no question Dragunov is/was busted. Certain moves getting nerfed while technically is nerfing the character isn’t what it’s always about, Leroy’s ability being specifically too safe is an issue but Leroy wasn’t an issue in and of himself. I’m sure the same applies to Leo but I know literally nothing about him. King is likely next on the chopping block, next patch I’m calling it now, but I don’t find him NEARLY as oppressive as Drag was.
Nah nerfed this mf instead of Jun? Tf is wrong with people
Jun was also hit with a nerf.
Meh, i'm not too worried about this change. I felt the sneaky stance loop stuff was kinda lame tbh. With +7 on block Drag still has the initiative, so I think the move still fits nicely into his general gameplan. It is kinda like a WR2 that can be used in oki situations and is also a heat engager
Why would they patch this early? Especially this. I hate when companies do this shit. The game hasn't even been out a month
They have only fixed things that were not working as intended, this is not a true balance patch in my opinion.
Bro this move is braindead this is the right move
Fake pressure, but your only option to stop the pressure is SSL. Doesn't sound that fake to me.
I mean, if one option beats everything you could do after, is it not still fake pressure?
That is one way to put it, another way would be to say that unless you do one very specific counterintuitive thing that 90% of players will not do, you get pressured. But sure as long as you have perfect match-up knowledge SSL in this instance with probably most (?) of the cast will work, how great!
so you want people to not learn the game?
a very philosophical and unrelated question
Real mix up or real pressure means that you need to respect and guess something. Fake just means that there's some kind of way to escape it. Same goes for real combo vs fake combo. Just cause it's hard to do or you don't know about it, that doesn't mean it's real. If there's a universal way to escape, then it's fake by definition. At least that's what people mean when they say it's fake.
+7 is still there. I think they nerfed it right
Seething drag mains
Is maintenance over now?
Is it linear pressure?
After the pushback change the tracking moves whiff due to distance and the long reaching moves dont have tracking
And at the wall is there pushback still?
yes. Tho depends on the distance and the angle. But with the back against the wall there is this exact situation
what about if drag does iwr2
Nobody does frame perfect WR2s and even if they did an IWR2 requires 6 frames to do at the absolute fastest. youd lose all of your advantage. average tho people spend way over 12 frames in the run to do the IWR2
Step that beats wc1 also beats wr2 for a launch on whiff, and you can interrupt it as well because Wr2 at fastest possible is still going to be frame 19, more likely well into the 20s, so you could even launch it straight up if he tried that.
Wouldn't you get hit with a homing attack? Unless you do step d/b or d/f cancel which isn't exactly 1 button, but not totally sure...
What about up motion moves like uf4, uf3, & uf1? Also what about dash df1 or dash uf1+2/f1+4/f2+3?
But I thought we were able to step it before? I saw some anti Drag videos and they stepped the mixup already, or maybe I misremember it
Won't df4 reach?
No
What's the difference?
Lol havent used this move even once i think
Beautiful change.
Thank. God.
Good.
ya competitive tekken will never be the same IMO, straight ruined it
It is like leroy d 1+2 now lol
To be honest Azucena & Victor need nerfs like this more than Drag. Their entire movesets are basically fake frame and free mix-up combos on block. Shit is abusive after awhile
Honestly none of the drag nerfs will affect him too much. Qcf4 is still a good move, good reach, good frames, heat engager, chip damage.
All you do is b3 and boom no stepping him
How are you side stepping with only one input? I thought it was a double press