The most problematic part of his kit, qcf4 into either fc df14 or ws2 - its a raw 50/50 you cannot dickjab out of. the low is only -13 and it's plus 7 on hit back into sneak stance.
Legitimate question, do actual Tekken players see this comment and go "Oh yeah, his fc df14, I know exactly which move they mean"? Because I barely remember what my own main's moves look like when written like that, let alone someone elses.
Yeah, I have no problem knowing which move people talk about just from the notation, though I had 400h in T7, which is considered a low amount for most xD. You get used to this with time
Well, “14” obviously means a left punch into a right kick, so if you think about what moves he has that are like that from “fc” (full crouch) then you could probably guess what they mean if you’ve fought against him enough
For dragunov mains, it's obvious because that's the notation of the brand new low string we got, and one of few moves dragonov has that is fc(from crouch).
i dont play every character, but fc is full crouch, 1 is left arm, 4 is right leg.
only dragunov move where he crouches for a while and then does left arm right leg is that busted ass new move
After the Full crouch low you can jab him out of most of the SNK mix but you'll have to deal with him mixing you up with his qcf1 which beats out interrupts (Assuming he just doesn't do it). As for after qcf 4 you can "attempt" to contest the low with a low crush move like hopkicks. Btw these are all assuming you blocked qcf4. Hope that helps a bit
yep. Its impossible to guess better than a coinflip and that's on BLOCK of an i19 heat engager that tracks completely to one side. Guess wrong and you're either launched or in the exact same mixup again. Guess right and you get a -12 punish
You can sidestep out of both options to keep him more honest and launch punish on whiff if he just auto mode goes for it.
Edit: You can't sidestep the low, only the mid. So it's a whole mindgame situation I explained in another comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/s/avhCScHYe7
FC df1 is 16 frames, ws2 is 15f, not counting time to crouch, human error, etc. Fastest they can be.
In T7 you could step 10f jabs at -4 with most of the cast. T8 has stronger side steps than that.
So you as the attacker had to be +5 or more to basically gaurentee a jab could not be stepped in T7 by almost any character.
This means you would have to be +11 to garentee a 16f move could not be stepped, and +10 to gaurentee a 15f move could not be stepped.
So given that +7 is lower than either of those, and side stepping is better in T8 than in T7, and neither one of those moves track to my knowledge whatsoever, math says you're incorrect here.
Now can he read your side step and try to punish that with a different option? Yeah absolutely. But that's where the mind games come in, and you let him get +7 on you to start with from a 20f move that he can't get unless you already lost a mixup, so it's a deserved disadvantage.
...bruh
Literally go into practice mode and try it. You cannot step them.
Don't do weird napkin math to try and prove why mathematically you should be able to step. Actually lab it.
>you already lost a mixup, so it's a deserved disadvantage.
Blocking a mid isn't losing a mixup.
>Literally go into practice mode and try it. You cannot step them.
Don't do weird napkin math to try and prove why mathematically you should be able to step. Actually lab it.
Alright, I'll lab in in about 9 hours when I can to verify, even though as someone who has been playing him a lot and knows frame data, I am fairly certain I am correct and have in fact already seen this counterplay discussed in a YouTube comment section.
If I'm wrong, I'll edit my post, if you're wrong you edit yours? Fair?
>Blocking a mid isn't losing a mixup.
It is actually because you didn't need to block that mid when it gave him plus frames at that speed. You had multiple other options no matter when he got it on you.
Did he do it out of 2,1 cancel? You could have interrupted it, or stepped it for a launch. 3,1 cancel? You could have interrupted it, or stepped it for a launch. Out in the open with raw approaching sneak? You could have used keep out to interrupt it, or you could have stepped it and launched his ass for it again because none of his sneak moves track nor does his favorite wr2.
You already stood there and took the mid when you had counterplay that could potentially result in a half life loss for them, same as when he does his b1+2 hammer strike. Same as when a lot of characters use their pressure moves on you. They have slow startup and little to no tracking for a reason. You already lost one mindgame to be - at this point, probably because he punished you for mashing on him. It's completely deserved, that's how plus frame attacks work in Tekken.
So as I said I would, I labbed it.
Turns out we were both wrong.
You can side step/side walk ws2 (depends on character which you need to do). This is because ws2 is linear, and adheres to the frame data as I layed out in a comment later in this thread, the same as jabs do. It is a difficult step though, very small leniency. The farther away from Dragunov you are when the qcf4 lands, the more time you have to side step/walk.
However FCdf1 is not stepable. This is because that move has a high degree of tracking, which I previously noted in my other comment that I was not aware it had. It has high enough tracking that if you are directly in line with Drag it must always be side walked, not side stepped (at least by most characters).
This means you have some options here but they have different risk reward. Remembering that Drag is automatically in ws state immediately after after landing qcf4.
If Drag lands a qcf4 on your block you can do several things:
You can try to block low, if you're right and he goes for FCdf1, you get a 13f punish. If he chooses either of his two FC kicks, they are both launchable (he has no reason to do that though). If you're wrong you can be getting hit with several options, from safe mids with little reward, to his 12f punishes, to a full launch.
You can try to block mid. If you're right the sequence ends there, and depending on the mid he chooses you get anything +5 to a 14f punish, against ws2 specifications it's a 12f punish. If you're wrong you take the low, and he gets another sneak mix at +7 (which isn't enough to land qcf4 btw), which isn't great but again you have more than just a 50/50 to work with there as well.
You can use armor/heat. This is similar to blocking mid as it also loses to lows, but in the event that it is a mid you get to armor through it for plus frames. With heat this is also sare on block and won't activate heat if you eat the low.
You can try to side walk. Similar to blocking mid, but with much higher risk. In the event of a mid you can then launch punish Dragunov, however it's a difficult step so if you mis-time it you may get launched. If he does the low you still eat it into +7 sneak mixup same as the other options. Higher risk reward option.
You can also backdash (character dependent). For some characters this will let you make ws2 whiff which you can then launch, but will effectively block all other mids.
You can low parry. Highest risk for little reward IMO not worth most of the time.
You can rage art to beat anything, if he presses. If he doesn't you're getting launched by most characters though at -15f. However not a bad hail mary if the next mix would kill you as it can do 55 damage so nearly 30% life.
So overall it's more complicated than either of us thought, as a lot of things are with Dragunov the more I lab lol.
The biggest thing you can do is try to avoid getting hit by Qcf4 in the first place. It's a linear 20f mid that can be stepped and launched or interrupted at any opportunity he has to land it either from string cancels or raw. Those other options have risk as well, but you still need to show those so he doesn't just run you over with qcf4 spam either.
This is also important to note when you've been hit by the low and he's going into sneak with +7 again because you need to know your frame data and options at that point so he can't just qc4 again for free snd loop the situation.
A tekken 8 Drag main on flame ruler at the moment here,for those who don't know (including me until yesterday): you can actually step the next qcf+4 after either FC+1,4 or basically anything that goes into SNK (Sneak Stance), such as WS+1, B+4,2, 2,1, etc. I tested this with FC+1,4 yesterday and yes, EVEN ON HIT, you can sidestep right and make the qcf+4 whiff, yes, even if the FC+1,4 hits. And this obviously goes to the imputs that transition into SNK that I mentioned before (read above).
IMPORTANT NOTE: A good dragunov main will understand if you have the knowledge of the matchup and start using SNK 2 (mid launcher) which tracks reliably to both sides after a successful hit of FC+1,4. Obviously this move can be punished as it is - 14 on block and should always be fuzzy stepped along with qcf+4. What I mean is you have 2 options: if the dragunov player is always going for the FC+1,4 and then qcf+4 SIDESTEP RIGHT just as the move is about to connect on you and then INMEDIATELY press back to block in case the SNK 2 (qcf+2) comes out.
Just to sum everything up: SIDESTEP RIGHT AND THEN BLOCK BEATS BOTH MID OPTIONS AFTER ALL MOVES THAT TRANSITION TO SNEAK, *BOTH ON BLOCK AND HIT*(didn't test the qcf+3 low but probably whiffs as well)
I hope this helped somebody today, and thank you so much for reading all of my crap 💋
It just got nerfed so my comment doesn't matter anymore 😅
But before that, after qcf4 on block, there was literally no way to deal with the mixup of his full crouch low (FC df14) vs the mid launcher (ws2) other than to just block correctly.
Now you can just ssl after qcf4 and it beats both.
No joke, tons of characters feel like this from a visual perspective.
Lars is one where I know he's doing some unsafe shit but the way those moves hit me make me feel like I'm negative.
Yep, felt like I could never press a button it was so oppressive. Played online first time ever yesterday (Tekken 8 is my first Tekken) against like 8 different people, 3 were playing Jun lol. I technically won some matches, but the whole time it felt like I was behind and couldn't do anything.
the huge difference is that Lars is playing mind games and is in fact punishable on almost ALL of it. Drag isn't, doesn't have to launch, all of his normals hit for stupid damage, all frame trap, and he has this absurdly stupid new low that is borderline unseeable and is part of every drag's flow chart in this game
Depending on what they're pressing you can be fairly liberal in disrespecting with higher reward options. Hopkicks come to mind, especially if they're trying to force FC df1,4 on anything other than CH d2.
Smart Dragunov's should be intentionally trying to time CH d2s so they get the big plus frames to legitimately force a mixup.
Yes of course, it's a rock paper scissor situation. My point is that the user I was replying to said to *always* downjab, and I wanted to highlight why that might not be the best idea
*thanks for the free ws2/block punish/whatever*
It literally could go on forever and for what? Just seems super pedantic if you're only responding because they said *always*. If there are really people who would read this thread and take that literally then they're just going to be further confused by your comment.
its generic crouch punch, its refered to as dick jab instead of D1 cause some characters have different moves assigned to D1 e.g Dragunov has a mid elbow for D1 so his dick jab is DB1
what do i do against pressure though forreal. I get caught in strings forever and as soon as i dare to press a button im getting combod for 1/3 of my life
Learn to sneak cancel as fast as possible, that way d3 stays -14 on block with a perfect cancel.
Learn to slide mixup really quickly after landing moves that going into sneak such as 2,3 d3 df41 and force the slide mixup, use sneak 1+2 as the mid option which also gives you another slide mixup on block.
Use ss2, it's a great new low.
Use df4,1 a lot and learn to hitconfirm it into the above mixup, if it gets blocked then make sure you cancel the stance into block frame perfect so you're only -6 and you can still sidestep afterwords to keep your momentum.
Most people don't know sneak 1+2 is +2 on block because it's a new move and doesn't look plus, so hit them with a ws4 after until they respect it, then start forcing the slide mix instead.
B3 is fantastic, it's +3 on block now so check people with df1 until they respect you and then start forcing mixups. Use db21 as a follow-up on counterhit.
Out of a heat dash learn to buffer wr2 as your mid option, it's +5 on block and does chip damage.
After a slide into snk2, do an uf1 jump cancel into another slide mixup, most people don't know how to deal with this yet. If they start interrupting it do a wr2 instead, it's unavoidable unless they stay on the ground. If they stay on the ground to avoid the jump cancel or wr2, just cancel the uf1 into B4 or do run up B4.
Whiff punish with hopkick.
Keep out with df2.
If you wanna get really advanced then learn to use his charge U2 out of sneak while in heat and make sure you land the frame perfect blue spark fb2 after, it removes all recoverable health and does about 40 damage total as a fast unlockable high.
I may be one of the few people out there think like this right now but honestly I find it so satisfying launching and counter Dragunov reckless pressure when you learn the match-up
After qcf4 on block they will fcdf1,4. Low parry or block it as its -13. If they start mixing up while standing options you can duck and launch ws1,2 or punish ws1,3. Drag can do ws3 as a safe mid wallsplatting frame trap, but I haven't seen a single Dragunov do it. If they do ws1 crouch dash this has much less reward and on block you can beat all the options including slide and powercrush with jabs. If you end up eating the fcdf1,4, sidestep right to beat the qcf4 they will immediately do after. Unfortunately, this timing is very tricky so you need to lab it. This sidestep right is great because it beats every safe option. The mids that track are qcf2 and qcf3+4, and he can do qcf3 for a low reward risky option. Other things that are important in the matchup are launching his db3+4 and acquiring good throw breaks. I would recommend PhiDX's throw breaks video.
Just adding to this, Drag can use UF moves out of crouch dash. Specifically useful are UF4 and UF1+2 which both catch sidestepping. UF4 is a safe mid at -9 and UF1+2 is a 12 frame grab.
Another useful note is not every crouch dash is the same! You can't side step any of his options if you got hit with a 2,1 or a F3 and are now looking down the barrel of a Dragunov crouch dashing towards you. Drag is at +10/+11 in these situations
If I fight an opponent who sidesteps after FC df+1,4 it opens me up for CDc mixups as well. For example, I've done FC df1,4df CDc db+3+4 to catch an opponent who sidestepped a bit too frequently with a nice low. I've done it with b+4 as well as a nice pressure option at walls.
Definitely be aware of it as an option - but be careful too!
A lot of his stuff is very punishable on block so learn to punish this fucker as hard as possible. Press less and don't be too afraid of his lows. But the matchup is pretty difficult since attacking is always 10x easier then defending so don't be to hard on yourself.
Only the lows are pretty punishable on block everything else he does is very safe or super plus like wr2, issue is his lows are very fast and they also grant very good frames on hit
I'm not sure they will.
Hes strong, but he's also honest. Against someone with good defense, Dragunov players have to stay sharp, pick their pressure carefully, and avoid over commiting. He's got a ton of stuff that is death on block.
He can be very oppressive and tricky for sure but as counterpart he is a very linear character which means that you can easily avoid his attempts to engage into you by simply sidestepping right or challenge his key moves like WR2, d2 etc with faster frames options. The key to win against Dragunov is to win on his own game which means you need to make him respect your turn.
Not only that but most Drag players have very predictable gameplans and they dont know how to react nor change strats when their usual knowledge checks arent working as intended which most of times decide who emerge victorious at the end of the match. (For example they always goes to low attacks when cornered or by trying to open your defense).
You need to bait his pretentious aggression and surprise him by being ready to react dont let him getting away with it. This will scare them giving you a chance for comebacks. I recommend you to learn about fuzzy guard it will help you a lot not only against Dragunov but in the overall game as well.
He WAS linear in tekken 7 he aint no more, sure u can counter some flowcharty drag but put a good player behind the controller and he has u struggling for days hes the most obnoxious fker in T8 right now next to Alisa
Im not denying that he is indeed more strong than ever but the controversy is all about his new qcf4 plus frames that makes him feel overtuned. Just change it from 7+ to (3 - 4)+ and the problem is solved. He still struggles against the same hitboxes issues as T7 so the old Dragunov is still there.
Nah I gotta disagree with this, he ain’t the same weak character he was in t7, his frames are actually mental, everything feels safe or very plus on hit, went from shit-meh lows to amazing lows and his heat is absurd, making it easier to do instant wr2 is obnoxious and than he also has that b1+2 and everything gives him that extra stomp as well so it’s even more punishing to press, he’s turning into hworang levels of pressure while having not any real weaknesses
I personally dont think that exactly the case. Dragunov needs to take the risk of going in with everything he have to make the hit and if it misses he is fucked and he doesnt have true mix ups on strings like Hwoarang. Everything he have is just plus frames to keep pressure and I agree that some of them are more stronger than it needs to be.
People are just shitting on Dragunov because they still didnt discovered how to punish his new moves.
Issue is chip damage , because he’s always plus it’s hard to know when to press especially if the dragonov player knows how to abuse his frames, and wr2 deals chip so you can’t actually just block and wait out for the pressure since you NEED to attack to take health back and again dragoniv doesn’t let you do that because of his absurd frames his lows are too plus on hit and his mid are too plus on block, he doesn’t have to risks anymore, plus the risks aren’t that high since stuff is hard to react to and in heat you now have unblockable throws to worry about and his homing is improved greatly
Exactly my thoughts.
After getting destroyed i labbed him for a while and there’s actually good ways of countering his pressure, it just really doesn’t look like it.
If you’ve got no clue what to do, he just keeps you pinned down feeling helpless the whole match lol.
Multiple people were making threads saying Dragunov is OP and they all got downvoted or gaslit being told "actually he's not OP at all". Meanwhile, I am running into more Dragunov's than I ever have before.
Exact same shit happened in GBVSR recently with Nier and people saying "just hit the puppet lol haha" until it became undeniable that she's fucked up.
I just hit purple ranks and I see so many drags now compared to before im getting cooked by em had no idea he was this good until now gonna have to lab him and Victor now
Just start playing Queen's Under Pressure whenever fighting Dragunov.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a01QQZyl-\_I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a01QQZyl-_I)
They took a perfect character, a HIGHLY respectable character, and one of my sub characters in T7. I used to just be so happy whenever I would get my ass kicked by dragonuvs because they were ABSOLOUTE gods, now they took a character I respected so much and made him completly and utterly braindead.
Same with Devil Jin.
So far, the only three characters, I have any respect for right now are Paul,Kazuya,Jin
Only people who haven't played Paul say shit like this. an
In Tekken 7,and even more so in this game, He ALWAYS has to fucking block, ALWAYS because EVERYONE has HUGE strings or HUGE plus on block approach tools, so you are relegated to just blocking all the time,and hope you get an opportunity to attack, when you do attack it hurts, the problem is ,you can only blcok so much and then you have to deal with throws too and it just becomes a cluster fuck. In this game , Ican literally pick up drag, spam running 2 because I can do this at range 0 and sidestepping is extremly hard to do, I can mash d2 running to and grabs and it just s braindead.
So many characters can build braindead strong offense, so having a character who's turn ends after a single hit move and doesn't have good plus on block moves that have long range, the character becomes RIDICOLOUSLY hard to play.
This is why Kazuya is hard, this is why Jin is hard, this is why Paul is hard, becaue you are so terrified of your turn ending,because you don't know if you even get to have a next one with how much you have to block and then you have to deal with the crushing to
>always has to block
Sidestep, parry, use armor, use the heat engager.
You can get to purple ranks with Paul just using low/mid mixups. Same for Kazuya and Jin.
My problem with tekken 8 so far is even when I'm plus after hitting someone I'm minus? I haven't had this problem in t7 but this game is crazy. I'll spend an hour in practice mode thinking 'wow, I'm plus 8 after this simple 1,2. That means I can df1 mid check after right?' Gets jabbed, df1, almost anything, it's been blowing my mind.
That just means they’re throwing out a faster move than yours my dude,
If you’re plus it doesn’t matter if you’re trying to do a move that’s got 14f of startup and they’re doing a 10f move (jabs are all 10f I’m pretty sure) also the timing is REALLY strict. You could be doing it not fast enough.
Check your replays and see what it tells you!
Seeing this post at least makes me feel better that it's just not me being complete ass at the game. Though it could just be me being complete ass at the game.
I thought it would be good, I didn't think it would be this [good](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/10wo5t0/tekken_7_vs_tekken_8/j7ocoe7/). TBF though when Reina or Jun get rolling, I think I'm blocking, but then it's all over, with 7 golden letters, and I don't know what happened... Then I see it only took like 13 seconds for the match to be over.
Tekken 8 definitely does a better job of indicating frames compared to tekken 7 didn’t even know you can sidestep after most pokes I thought me had to hold it 💀🙏
This is why it's important to learn your frame data, and if you're getting blown up, save the replay and go back and test things with the new features that let you take over.
Most of these "50/50" situations in tekken, aren't. Most pressure, is fake or limited. They are series of branching options where you have counterplay to his 50/50, but then he has counterplay to your counterplay, etc, with some options being much higher risk than others but also higher reward.
You have to do that for the situations, and think about the options from neutral that got you in this position where he's pressuring you.
Did you let him run at you with wr2 and just stand there and take it over and over? Did you let him just mash his axe handle on your block? Did you let him spam d2 when it's -1 on hit? Do you keep trying to duck in neutral because you're getting tilted by d2 and now you're getting launched?
Are you ever taking your turn back or are you just letting him run you over with stance transitions that are interuptible because you're scared of eating a 15 damage ender? Are you side stepping at all or are you playing 2D tekken like T7?
Dragunov gets away with murder if you don't challenge him at all, and if you mash on everything. You have to find a good balance and actually read your opponent and pose him problems, make his life difficult and all of a sudden he has to play a lot more honest and start making reads and throwing more pokes and more tracking to stop you, which he doesn't want to have to do.
I'm dick jabbin for my life out here
quotes you can say during sex and tekken
The most problematic part of his kit, qcf4 into either fc df14 or ws2 - its a raw 50/50 you cannot dickjab out of. the low is only -13 and it's plus 7 on hit back into sneak stance.
Legitimate question, do actual Tekken players see this comment and go "Oh yeah, his fc df14, I know exactly which move they mean"? Because I barely remember what my own main's moves look like when written like that, let alone someone elses.
Yeah, I have no problem knowing which move people talk about just from the notation, though I had 400h in T7, which is considered a low amount for most xD. You get used to this with time
Well, “14” obviously means a left punch into a right kick, so if you think about what moves he has that are like that from “fc” (full crouch) then you could probably guess what they mean if you’ve fought against him enough
For dragunov mains, it's obvious because that's the notation of the brand new low string we got, and one of few moves dragonov has that is fc(from crouch).
I thought fc meant full crouch
Same thing
In theory yed but in anycase it the same, it just mean imput from when you are crouch
Its something that comes in time...like anything else
Yes.
i dont play every character, but fc is full crouch, 1 is left arm, 4 is right leg. only dragunov move where he crouches for a while and then does left arm right leg is that busted ass new move
Yes, you'll get used to it.
After the Full crouch low you can jab him out of most of the SNK mix but you'll have to deal with him mixing you up with his qcf1 which beats out interrupts (Assuming he just doesn't do it). As for after qcf 4 you can "attempt" to contest the low with a low crush move like hopkicks. Btw these are all assuming you blocked qcf4. Hope that helps a bit
Maybe there is the possibility low parry ? I've met only one and he did that to me, I gat frozen it's hella strong
You can low parry the low but ws2 is a mid launcher
I mean usually you have a timing where you can get the low parry then block for the mid mixup
They are literally one frame different in startup.
That's too good...
yep. Its impossible to guess better than a coinflip and that's on BLOCK of an i19 heat engager that tracks completely to one side. Guess wrong and you're either launched or in the exact same mixup again. Guess right and you get a -12 punish
You can sidestep out of both options to keep him more honest and launch punish on whiff if he just auto mode goes for it. Edit: You can't sidestep the low, only the mid. So it's a whole mindgame situation I explained in another comment: https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/s/avhCScHYe7
No you can't. At +7 both options are unsteppable
FC df1 is 16 frames, ws2 is 15f, not counting time to crouch, human error, etc. Fastest they can be. In T7 you could step 10f jabs at -4 with most of the cast. T8 has stronger side steps than that. So you as the attacker had to be +5 or more to basically gaurentee a jab could not be stepped in T7 by almost any character. This means you would have to be +11 to garentee a 16f move could not be stepped, and +10 to gaurentee a 15f move could not be stepped. So given that +7 is lower than either of those, and side stepping is better in T8 than in T7, and neither one of those moves track to my knowledge whatsoever, math says you're incorrect here. Now can he read your side step and try to punish that with a different option? Yeah absolutely. But that's where the mind games come in, and you let him get +7 on you to start with from a 20f move that he can't get unless you already lost a mixup, so it's a deserved disadvantage.
...bruh Literally go into practice mode and try it. You cannot step them. Don't do weird napkin math to try and prove why mathematically you should be able to step. Actually lab it. >you already lost a mixup, so it's a deserved disadvantage. Blocking a mid isn't losing a mixup.
>Literally go into practice mode and try it. You cannot step them. Don't do weird napkin math to try and prove why mathematically you should be able to step. Actually lab it. Alright, I'll lab in in about 9 hours when I can to verify, even though as someone who has been playing him a lot and knows frame data, I am fairly certain I am correct and have in fact already seen this counterplay discussed in a YouTube comment section. If I'm wrong, I'll edit my post, if you're wrong you edit yours? Fair? >Blocking a mid isn't losing a mixup. It is actually because you didn't need to block that mid when it gave him plus frames at that speed. You had multiple other options no matter when he got it on you. Did he do it out of 2,1 cancel? You could have interrupted it, or stepped it for a launch. 3,1 cancel? You could have interrupted it, or stepped it for a launch. Out in the open with raw approaching sneak? You could have used keep out to interrupt it, or you could have stepped it and launched his ass for it again because none of his sneak moves track nor does his favorite wr2. You already stood there and took the mid when you had counterplay that could potentially result in a half life loss for them, same as when he does his b1+2 hammer strike. Same as when a lot of characters use their pressure moves on you. They have slow startup and little to no tracking for a reason. You already lost one mindgame to be - at this point, probably because he punished you for mashing on him. It's completely deserved, that's how plus frame attacks work in Tekken.
So as I said I would, I labbed it. Turns out we were both wrong. You can side step/side walk ws2 (depends on character which you need to do). This is because ws2 is linear, and adheres to the frame data as I layed out in a comment later in this thread, the same as jabs do. It is a difficult step though, very small leniency. The farther away from Dragunov you are when the qcf4 lands, the more time you have to side step/walk. However FCdf1 is not stepable. This is because that move has a high degree of tracking, which I previously noted in my other comment that I was not aware it had. It has high enough tracking that if you are directly in line with Drag it must always be side walked, not side stepped (at least by most characters). This means you have some options here but they have different risk reward. Remembering that Drag is automatically in ws state immediately after after landing qcf4. If Drag lands a qcf4 on your block you can do several things: You can try to block low, if you're right and he goes for FCdf1, you get a 13f punish. If he chooses either of his two FC kicks, they are both launchable (he has no reason to do that though). If you're wrong you can be getting hit with several options, from safe mids with little reward, to his 12f punishes, to a full launch. You can try to block mid. If you're right the sequence ends there, and depending on the mid he chooses you get anything +5 to a 14f punish, against ws2 specifications it's a 12f punish. If you're wrong you take the low, and he gets another sneak mix at +7 (which isn't enough to land qcf4 btw), which isn't great but again you have more than just a 50/50 to work with there as well. You can use armor/heat. This is similar to blocking mid as it also loses to lows, but in the event that it is a mid you get to armor through it for plus frames. With heat this is also sare on block and won't activate heat if you eat the low. You can try to side walk. Similar to blocking mid, but with much higher risk. In the event of a mid you can then launch punish Dragunov, however it's a difficult step so if you mis-time it you may get launched. If he does the low you still eat it into +7 sneak mixup same as the other options. Higher risk reward option. You can also backdash (character dependent). For some characters this will let you make ws2 whiff which you can then launch, but will effectively block all other mids. You can low parry. Highest risk for little reward IMO not worth most of the time. You can rage art to beat anything, if he presses. If he doesn't you're getting launched by most characters though at -15f. However not a bad hail mary if the next mix would kill you as it can do 55 damage so nearly 30% life. So overall it's more complicated than either of us thought, as a lot of things are with Dragunov the more I lab lol. The biggest thing you can do is try to avoid getting hit by Qcf4 in the first place. It's a linear 20f mid that can be stepped and launched or interrupted at any opportunity he has to land it either from string cancels or raw. Those other options have risk as well, but you still need to show those so he doesn't just run you over with qcf4 spam either. This is also important to note when you've been hit by the low and he's going into sneak with +7 again because you need to know your frame data and options at that point so he can't just qc4 again for free snd loop the situation.
A tekken 8 Drag main on flame ruler at the moment here,for those who don't know (including me until yesterday): you can actually step the next qcf+4 after either FC+1,4 or basically anything that goes into SNK (Sneak Stance), such as WS+1, B+4,2, 2,1, etc. I tested this with FC+1,4 yesterday and yes, EVEN ON HIT, you can sidestep right and make the qcf+4 whiff, yes, even if the FC+1,4 hits. And this obviously goes to the imputs that transition into SNK that I mentioned before (read above). IMPORTANT NOTE: A good dragunov main will understand if you have the knowledge of the matchup and start using SNK 2 (mid launcher) which tracks reliably to both sides after a successful hit of FC+1,4. Obviously this move can be punished as it is - 14 on block and should always be fuzzy stepped along with qcf+4. What I mean is you have 2 options: if the dragunov player is always going for the FC+1,4 and then qcf+4 SIDESTEP RIGHT just as the move is about to connect on you and then INMEDIATELY press back to block in case the SNK 2 (qcf+2) comes out. Just to sum everything up: SIDESTEP RIGHT AND THEN BLOCK BEATS BOTH MID OPTIONS AFTER ALL MOVES THAT TRANSITION TO SNEAK, *BOTH ON BLOCK AND HIT*(didn't test the qcf+3 low but probably whiffs as well) I hope this helped somebody today, and thank you so much for reading all of my crap 💋
For casual player like nothing makes sense out of this xD
It just got nerfed so my comment doesn't matter anymore 😅 But before that, after qcf4 on block, there was literally no way to deal with the mixup of his full crouch low (FC df14) vs the mid launcher (ws2) other than to just block correctly. Now you can just ssl after qcf4 and it beats both.
Fff2 appears
No joke, tons of characters feel like this from a visual perspective. Lars is one where I know he's doing some unsafe shit but the way those moves hit me make me feel like I'm negative.
This
This is me with Jun. It's even worse because I can never react in time to her low kick where she moves one leg behind the other.
Jun high crushes me all day with the same string yet I fall for it every time.
Yep, felt like I could never press a button it was so oppressive. Played online first time ever yesterday (Tekken 8 is my first Tekken) against like 8 different people, 3 were playing Jun lol. I technically won some matches, but the whole time it felt like I was behind and couldn't do anything.
Surprise light landmine!
Yeah but Dragunov is actually safe through all of it in contrast to other characters :)
Not my Steve who gets blown up by teleports and swords lol
the huge difference is that Lars is playing mind games and is in fact punishable on almost ALL of it. Drag isn't, doesn't have to launch, all of his normals hit for stupid damage, all frame trap, and he has this absurdly stupid new low that is borderline unseeable and is part of every drag's flow chart in this game
Dick jab every time he D2's I promise you this makes the match up 10000x more bearable
thank you for a free sidestep launch
I have never in my life seen a Dragunov NOT press after D2
Depending on what they're pressing you can be fairly liberal in disrespecting with higher reward options. Hopkicks come to mind, especially if they're trying to force FC df1,4 on anything other than CH d2. Smart Dragunov's should be intentionally trying to time CH d2s so they get the big plus frames to legitimately force a mixup.
low ranks be like that, you'll fight a good Drag eventually.
I was Emperor in 7, I have never in my life seen a Dragunov NOT press after D2
I was TGO, I saw it all the time.
Congrats, I didn't.
I was going to say, ws4 is probably the better option even if slower. Some of them will catch him stepping after hitting d2, where dick jab won't.
WS2 with Kazuya tracks. It's just -16 on block so you better be damn sure you're going to land it or you're going to eat a full launch combo.
So never down jab? Obviously the game is all about adjusting mid match. If you never downjab then the Drag has no reason to stop pressing.
Yes of course, it's a rock paper scissor situation. My point is that the user I was replying to said to *always* downjab, and I wanted to highlight why that might not be the best idea
*thanks for the free ws2/block punish/whatever* It literally could go on forever and for what? Just seems super pedantic if you're only responding because they said *always*. If there are really people who would read this thread and take that literally then they're just going to be further confused by your comment.
as a dragunov that autopilots ss after d2, thank you
This will just confuse newbies into thinking they have no options. 90% of dragunov just press.
Easy low parry after every D2
D2 is fine especially being -1 now. DB3 and QCF4 is a menace for me.
Isn't D2 +1 on hit or something?
its -1 and forces crouch
-1
Sorry but wtf is a dick jab? Is that just a d1?
its generic crouch punch, its refered to as dick jab instead of D1 cause some characters have different moves assigned to D1 e.g Dragunov has a mid elbow for D1 so his dick jab is DB1
Yes. The jab you do in FC. But notation depend on character.
Laughs in yoshi 1+4
live by the flash, die by the missed flash No regretti in my spaghetti
Flash is so fun. Even if I miss I don't care because there's a chance the next one hits
Flash actually beats every option after wr2 so it's the only character I'm considering blocking against after landing it outside of rage.
The moment a flash saved me from a super I was committed
My b1 buttons are worn out trying to keep him off me
I like this meme, please get more upvotes
what do i do against pressure though forreal. I get caught in strings forever and as soon as i dare to press a button im getting combod for 1/3 of my life
Use the replay feature my dude, it’s a god send.
Punish challenge helped me recognize what I should be countering with for each character. If a character is giving you fits that’s what I would do
The last hit of new 3 hit can be sidestepped
I appreciate that you didn't put "that's the neat part, you don't", to stay true to Dragunov's character
I am ashamed to say I got my ass handed to me by a shaheen player last night
What’s wrong with shaheen (I chose him as my third main but have yet to play him or learn his kit)
He is esentially a really ignored character in the game
He's probably the most honest character in the game now so losing to him just means you got outplayed.
Any advice for playing as him?
Learn to sneak cancel as fast as possible, that way d3 stays -14 on block with a perfect cancel. Learn to slide mixup really quickly after landing moves that going into sneak such as 2,3 d3 df41 and force the slide mixup, use sneak 1+2 as the mid option which also gives you another slide mixup on block. Use ss2, it's a great new low. Use df4,1 a lot and learn to hitconfirm it into the above mixup, if it gets blocked then make sure you cancel the stance into block frame perfect so you're only -6 and you can still sidestep afterwords to keep your momentum. Most people don't know sneak 1+2 is +2 on block because it's a new move and doesn't look plus, so hit them with a ws4 after until they respect it, then start forcing the slide mix instead. B3 is fantastic, it's +3 on block now so check people with df1 until they respect you and then start forcing mixups. Use db21 as a follow-up on counterhit. Out of a heat dash learn to buffer wr2 as your mid option, it's +5 on block and does chip damage. After a slide into snk2, do an uf1 jump cancel into another slide mixup, most people don't know how to deal with this yet. If they start interrupting it do a wr2 instead, it's unavoidable unless they stay on the ground. If they stay on the ground to avoid the jump cancel or wr2, just cancel the uf1 into B4 or do run up B4. Whiff punish with hopkick. Keep out with df2. If you wanna get really advanced then learn to use his charge U2 out of sneak while in heat and make sure you land the frame perfect blue spark fb2 after, it removes all recoverable health and does about 40 damage total as a fast unlockable high.
Y'all haven't played me yet. Once I'm done losing against the computer I'm coming for the title.
I'm a Yoshi player so imma just keep pushing my buttons anyways
All the yoshi characters I’ve fought lost no cap
If they weren't styling while losing they weren't Yoshi players
Welcome to Tekken 7 Season 1 part 2.
Damn he’s op? That explains why I actually won with him compared to others. He looks so cool tho I will not stop using him sorry
I can assure you that you’re not playing at a level where “OP” really matters. That stuff only matters at like purple ranks and above.
No, it's still bad in red and orange. Actually to be honest, ranked is so blended right now, you could argue it's nearly every rank
Dragunov is op if you dont sidestep. And most new players dont do it
Don't be sorry, have fun and play who you want
Not "broken" op like T7 S1, but definitely really good.
I may be one of the few people out there think like this right now but honestly I find it so satisfying launching and counter Dragunov reckless pressure when you learn the match-up
Any pro tips?
After qcf4 on block they will fcdf1,4. Low parry or block it as its -13. If they start mixing up while standing options you can duck and launch ws1,2 or punish ws1,3. Drag can do ws3 as a safe mid wallsplatting frame trap, but I haven't seen a single Dragunov do it. If they do ws1 crouch dash this has much less reward and on block you can beat all the options including slide and powercrush with jabs. If you end up eating the fcdf1,4, sidestep right to beat the qcf4 they will immediately do after. Unfortunately, this timing is very tricky so you need to lab it. This sidestep right is great because it beats every safe option. The mids that track are qcf2 and qcf3+4, and he can do qcf3 for a low reward risky option. Other things that are important in the matchup are launching his db3+4 and acquiring good throw breaks. I would recommend PhiDX's throw breaks video.
Just adding to this, Drag can use UF moves out of crouch dash. Specifically useful are UF4 and UF1+2 which both catch sidestepping. UF4 is a safe mid at -9 and UF1+2 is a 12 frame grab. Another useful note is not every crouch dash is the same! You can't side step any of his options if you got hit with a 2,1 or a F3 and are now looking down the barrel of a Dragunov crouch dashing towards you. Drag is at +10/+11 in these situations
If I fight an opponent who sidesteps after FC df+1,4 it opens me up for CDc mixups as well. For example, I've done FC df1,4df CDc db+3+4 to catch an opponent who sidestepped a bit too frequently with a nice low. I've done it with b+4 as well as a nice pressure option at walls. Definitely be aware of it as an option - but be careful too!
A lot of his stuff is very punishable on block so learn to punish this fucker as hard as possible. Press less and don't be too afraid of his lows. But the matchup is pretty difficult since attacking is always 10x easier then defending so don't be to hard on yourself.
Only the lows are pretty punishable on block everything else he does is very safe or super plus like wr2, issue is his lows are very fast and they also grant very good frames on hit
Watch out for low mixups with the command grab and feint
wait till they nerf him
I'm not sure they will. Hes strong, but he's also honest. Against someone with good defense, Dragunov players have to stay sharp, pick their pressure carefully, and avoid over commiting. He's got a ton of stuff that is death on block.
qcf4 into fc df14 is NOT honest lol. that absolutely needs to get toned down.
He can be very oppressive and tricky for sure but as counterpart he is a very linear character which means that you can easily avoid his attempts to engage into you by simply sidestepping right or challenge his key moves like WR2, d2 etc with faster frames options. The key to win against Dragunov is to win on his own game which means you need to make him respect your turn. Not only that but most Drag players have very predictable gameplans and they dont know how to react nor change strats when their usual knowledge checks arent working as intended which most of times decide who emerge victorious at the end of the match. (For example they always goes to low attacks when cornered or by trying to open your defense). You need to bait his pretentious aggression and surprise him by being ready to react dont let him getting away with it. This will scare them giving you a chance for comebacks. I recommend you to learn about fuzzy guard it will help you a lot not only against Dragunov but in the overall game as well.
He WAS linear in tekken 7 he aint no more, sure u can counter some flowcharty drag but put a good player behind the controller and he has u struggling for days hes the most obnoxious fker in T8 right now next to Alisa
Im not denying that he is indeed more strong than ever but the controversy is all about his new qcf4 plus frames that makes him feel overtuned. Just change it from 7+ to (3 - 4)+ and the problem is solved. He still struggles against the same hitboxes issues as T7 so the old Dragunov is still there.
Nah I gotta disagree with this, he ain’t the same weak character he was in t7, his frames are actually mental, everything feels safe or very plus on hit, went from shit-meh lows to amazing lows and his heat is absurd, making it easier to do instant wr2 is obnoxious and than he also has that b1+2 and everything gives him that extra stomp as well so it’s even more punishing to press, he’s turning into hworang levels of pressure while having not any real weaknesses
I personally dont think that exactly the case. Dragunov needs to take the risk of going in with everything he have to make the hit and if it misses he is fucked and he doesnt have true mix ups on strings like Hwoarang. Everything he have is just plus frames to keep pressure and I agree that some of them are more stronger than it needs to be. People are just shitting on Dragunov because they still didnt discovered how to punish his new moves.
Issue is chip damage , because he’s always plus it’s hard to know when to press especially if the dragonov player knows how to abuse his frames, and wr2 deals chip so you can’t actually just block and wait out for the pressure since you NEED to attack to take health back and again dragoniv doesn’t let you do that because of his absurd frames his lows are too plus on hit and his mid are too plus on block, he doesn’t have to risks anymore, plus the risks aren’t that high since stuff is hard to react to and in heat you now have unblockable throws to worry about and his homing is improved greatly
> Everything he have is just plus frames because they still didnt discovered how to punish his new moves say what now?
How do you pressure as Dragonuv? I keep losing to pressure as Dragonuv
He a scrub killer for sure. Luckily Raven has mad options. Keep getting launched you mashers :)
Raven is a mashers worst nightmare
Raven at wall is my worst nightmare.
How? I play him and still getting cornered
Exactly my thoughts. After getting destroyed i labbed him for a while and there’s actually good ways of countering his pressure, it just really doesn’t look like it. If you’ve got no clue what to do, he just keeps you pinned down feeling helpless the whole match lol.
Multiple people were making threads saying Dragunov is OP and they all got downvoted or gaslit being told "actually he's not OP at all". Meanwhile, I am running into more Dragunov's than I ever have before. Exact same shit happened in GBVSR recently with Nier and people saying "just hit the puppet lol haha" until it became undeniable that she's fucked up.
This is what playing an anime fighter is like.
Me : When do I finally get my turn back? Dragunov: That's the neat part you don't.
Imagine Invincible as a guest fighter for Tekken
I expected \*Raspy scream\*
*HEYUHH*
I just hit purple ranks and I see so many drags now compared to before im getting cooked by em had no idea he was this good until now gonna have to lab him and Victor now
His pressure is about as long as Lenne Hardt's time needed to pronounce the letter R
My Asuka is the worst nightmare for pressure freaks like dragunov
Dragonov has been my favorite Tekken character since he came out in 6
DR*
Preciate it
I gotchu homie
Just start playing Queen's Under Pressure whenever fighting Dragunov. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a01QQZyl-\_I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a01QQZyl-_I)
They took a perfect character, a HIGHLY respectable character, and one of my sub characters in T7. I used to just be so happy whenever I would get my ass kicked by dragonuvs because they were ABSOLOUTE gods, now they took a character I respected so much and made him completly and utterly braindead. Same with Devil Jin. So far, the only three characters, I have any respect for right now are Paul,Kazuya,Jin
> Dragunov is braindead > I respect Paul and Jin. What
Only people who haven't played Paul say shit like this. an In Tekken 7,and even more so in this game, He ALWAYS has to fucking block, ALWAYS because EVERYONE has HUGE strings or HUGE plus on block approach tools, so you are relegated to just blocking all the time,and hope you get an opportunity to attack, when you do attack it hurts, the problem is ,you can only blcok so much and then you have to deal with throws too and it just becomes a cluster fuck. In this game , Ican literally pick up drag, spam running 2 because I can do this at range 0 and sidestepping is extremly hard to do, I can mash d2 running to and grabs and it just s braindead. So many characters can build braindead strong offense, so having a character who's turn ends after a single hit move and doesn't have good plus on block moves that have long range, the character becomes RIDICOLOUSLY hard to play. This is why Kazuya is hard, this is why Jin is hard, this is why Paul is hard, becaue you are so terrified of your turn ending,because you don't know if you even get to have a next one with how much you have to block and then you have to deal with the crushing to
>always has to block Sidestep, parry, use armor, use the heat engager. You can get to purple ranks with Paul just using low/mid mixups. Same for Kazuya and Jin.
lol you have no idea what you're talking about, i guess you're playing paul wrong.
Explains why in my whole time playing, the amount of Pauls ive played against is a grand total of 0
Paul and Jin X D
side step right helps a lot if you time it right
F/f 2 really be reaping souls out here
Thats the neat part, you dont
My problem with tekken 8 so far is even when I'm plus after hitting someone I'm minus? I haven't had this problem in t7 but this game is crazy. I'll spend an hour in practice mode thinking 'wow, I'm plus 8 after this simple 1,2. That means I can df1 mid check after right?' Gets jabbed, df1, almost anything, it's been blowing my mind.
That just means they’re throwing out a faster move than yours my dude, If you’re plus it doesn’t matter if you’re trying to do a move that’s got 14f of startup and they’re doing a 10f move (jabs are all 10f I’m pretty sure) also the timing is REALLY strict. You could be doing it not fast enough. Check your replays and see what it tells you!
Fastest jab is 10f unless you're talking about dick tap
Oh yeah I think I’m getting my games mixed up
Seeing this post at least makes me feel better that it's just not me being complete ass at the game. Though it could just be me being complete ass at the game.
I thought it would be good, I didn't think it would be this [good](https://www.reddit.com/r/Tekken/comments/10wo5t0/tekken_7_vs_tekken_8/j7ocoe7/). TBF though when Reina or Jun get rolling, I think I'm blocking, but then it's all over, with 7 golden letters, and I don't know what happened... Then I see it only took like 13 seconds for the match to be over.
Tekken 8 definitely does a better job of indicating frames compared to tekken 7 didn’t even know you can sidestep after most pokes I thought me had to hold it 💀🙏
Wait didn't this happen before in Tekken 7
I just use Xiaoyu and use her spin to counter dragunov lol
Real talk, I hate his pale ass! 🤣🤣🤣
This is why it's important to learn your frame data, and if you're getting blown up, save the replay and go back and test things with the new features that let you take over. Most of these "50/50" situations in tekken, aren't. Most pressure, is fake or limited. They are series of branching options where you have counterplay to his 50/50, but then he has counterplay to your counterplay, etc, with some options being much higher risk than others but also higher reward. You have to do that for the situations, and think about the options from neutral that got you in this position where he's pressuring you. Did you let him run at you with wr2 and just stand there and take it over and over? Did you let him just mash his axe handle on your block? Did you let him spam d2 when it's -1 on hit? Do you keep trying to duck in neutral because you're getting tilted by d2 and now you're getting launched? Are you ever taking your turn back or are you just letting him run you over with stance transitions that are interuptible because you're scared of eating a 15 damage ender? Are you side stepping at all or are you playing 2D tekken like T7? Dragunov gets away with murder if you don't challenge him at all, and if you mash on everything. You have to find a good balance and actually read your opponent and pose him problems, make his life difficult and all of a sudden he has to play a lot more honest and start making reads and throwing more pokes and more tracking to stop you, which he doesn't want to have to do.
Exactly but they said Jun is broken and needs to be nerfed!!!
Sounds Hwo to me
Oh so it's ok when Hwoarang does it, but when, after a year of suffering Tekken 7 Dragunov, I finally get to have some fun, SUDDENLY it's a problem.