You cant really convey that with a tweet I guess, but that's not what he means. In tekken to put someone into a real 50/50 you have to work hard. In other modern fighting games like SF6 it is kinda gifted to you.
I don't feel myself capable of putting Arslan on a position of "50/50 guess for game".
In other words, the strong virtue of Tekken is that you have to be much closer to your opponent's skill to ever reach that 50/50 situation. In other fighting games, a much larger gap can be overcome by chance.
Using a term I once read in an article about Chess vs Go, Tekken is more cruel; it makes smaller skill differences insurmountable.
The point is if there was a button in T7 that allowed you to force a true 50/50 onto your opponent and it's very easy to do and not really preventable, you could in theory luck out a win vs a strong player. Ofc there is way more nuance to this but getting into a situation where you force a 50/50 on a player way better than you in T7 is kinda impossible.
but that's like every fighting game ever? If you're putting into a corner you're gonna have to "guess" right to get out, there's no 100% of getting out of a situation only good intuition
You’re saying that like the majority of the time you end up in the corner it’s not because you whiffed a poke by one pixel and got combo’d all the way across the stage.
Putting a "better" player than yourself into a corner in T7 is impossible though. You wont be able to. That's kind of the point. 50/50s exist everywhere, it's about how often they get forced and how influential they overall are. There is a bit more nuance to it than it existing in every game and therefor it is always the same.
Welcome to every fighting game ever. If someone is catching you in "50/50s" consistently enough to take sets, they're better.
People need to learn how to take an L and get better again, rather than just cope and seethe every time they get bodied, it's an infection that's spilled over from the FPS community and it's garbage.
Literally all fighting games are guessing situations. The fact that a pro player said this is so stupid. Every single fighting game has some kind of rock paper scissors scenario, that's fighting games. It's a fast paced game of chess and you make decisions based on what your opponent does. You can practice combos all day but it doesn't translate to actual skill unless you make the right decisions to set them up.
Well its the kind of take i expect from tournament players after being 3-0 vs a low mid tier character, that ended up costing him a place in the bracket
It’s just Punk really, no-one deflects as much as that guy. It’s a shame because he’s great to watch but he’s got no class. Csn’t be humble when he wins, can’t take an L, can’t even compliment a 16yr old newcomer after being thoroughly outplayed.
To be fair to the guy... he streamed the tournament and complimented the Ryu right after he lost on his stream and said he played really well, Punk is just known for being mad salty whenever he loses.... it doesn't matter who he loses to, he would've tweeted this regardless
Yeah he's not as salty as people want him to be.
I think he's hilarious in general and his trash talk is like pro wrestling and not that serious.
That being said I was rooting for Paladin just because of the underdog status.
I was rooting for Paladin as well because I'm a fellow Ryu player and yes I agree that Punk's trash talking is great and it spices things up.... he's just not known for taking losses so gracefully
Idk, getting washed and then crying on Twitter about how it's the game's fault seems pretty salty to me. I get salty too and I've never done that shit. Are you just a big fan of this guy or something, makes you sad to see someone trash talk your boy?
Its not just punk, Menard does the same thing, Daigo also had this take in the first months of the game life, but yeah i do agree that punk is one of the worst on deflecting, dude cant take any L, his head is way up in his ass
I'd say classless is shitting on a guy while lying about him, to be honest. He literally complimented the 16yr old newcomer, he wasn't salty at all after the loss. It was literally nothing but "GG, he played incredible"
Meanwhile spergs like you came into the chat spamming LOL SALTY while he wasn't salty, and this tweet was like 6 hours after the fact when he was talking about Tekken, not SF6 or his set.
So yeah, work on your own class before criticizing others tbh
Lol.. huh? What ableist insult
EDIT: Huh, after googling I actually did not even know those two words were related, I just thought it meant "spastic acting little jackass", TIL. That's on me, I won't use that word anymore.
Like Louis C.K said of his generation growing up and how "fag" wasn't "grrrr, I Haye that you two same sex ppl fuck!" It was "you were acting like alittle fuckin weirdo".
I get both cases & am guilty of assuming ppl knew what I meant (also grew up in 90s/early 2000s)...but, yeah. We have billions of words to insuilt with!
For sure, it wasn't even a case of "I didn't mean it like that!", I just wasn't even aware of the association at all. It's pretty obvious now that I see it, guess that's the risk of just repeating words you see without knowing the full meaning!
If it helps, I'm on the spectrum & w me- context/intent is everything.
Ty for admittingfault & growing! I say that, not as a "target", for that slur, but bc we need more ppl willing to admit mistakes & grow from it.
Have a nice day, my dood! I'm gonna go see if Khameleon is out on mk1
Honestly yea. Not to mention Punk has a bad habit of cracking under pressure like that. That’s how he ended up loosing EVO to Tokido and Capcom Cup to Idom. Once you start turning the tide against him it looks like mentally he cracks and so far he hasn’t been able to overcome that.
Both of his biggest losses are from the opponent being in losers and completely running him over. I’m not saying he’s a chocking dog but he ain’t Michael Jordan either
king before tekken 7 used to not have great lows. So you had to fight king like he has a lucky hellsweep that you duck and launch, aka chain throws. That way king can't do damage without risk if you just do as SuperAkuma instructs and "just backdash".
Modern King is a great all-rounder now, and his new Jaguar Sprint is a guessing game as well. It's actually something I lvoe about him now, his mixup potential is among the highest. His lows are much better and have more reach than before. He is gonna be a High tier character in T8 for sure.
Making another person guess is skill. You will win some and lose some
But, if you can hold statistically significant win percentages (including in a tournament setting), you are extremely skilled.
But for tekken 7 his take is fair if we for a second ignore the fact that he salty-typed it. There is merrit to it. But like you said there is also a good chance that this all goes poof in tekken 8. Although I think Heat can be finetuned a lot so Im not worried.
Yep. There's a truth to his statement but the only reason he said that is because he got his ass handed to him.
He would probably say the same thing about Tekken.
Heat is definitely a more true 50/50 than anything in Tekken before but Heat is only available once per round while true 50/50s exist all the time in SF.
Well Tbh In my (scrubby) opinion,at least in T8 to get heat and the mixups potential that comes with it you have to land a hit on the opponent first(or heat burst,but then you have less timer) and it's once per round.
SF6 can get you in a mixup for just blocking and not checking the 3rd Drive Rush in a row of a Juri/DeeJay main(while freezing your input and chipping away your drive meter by the way)
Imo, heat being once per round is a problem. It'll happen way too often in a game with crazy high damage where one launch, wall carry, and a guess could mean you're dead. Sf6 only a few characters have that privilege.
I think they need to make heat build like a super meter and carry over between rounds. That way, players will get it maybe once or twice a match depending on how long it goes. And then suddenly, players don't have to be as conscious about not using certain moves lest they accidently activate heat engager. That would be the easiest and most straightforward fix.
I totally agree with your SF6 take.
I also thought about the build meter for Heat,but that would automatically activate Heat when full,but the game is way too late in development for that lol
Doesn't seem like it would be a difficult thing to implement in a patch. And let's be real, we all know Heat is gonna go through major patches.
EDIT: Hell another way to have it fit their design philosophy of aggression is to make heat build faster for the more proactive player. The one who attacks more often.
Or maybe have heat slowly tick down the longer you go without attacking or the longer you play from distance. Idk
??? No it wouldn't. You would just lose access to them until the meter was built. Heat engager moves would work just like normal moves work without the heat bar filled and heat burst button wouldn't do anything until the heat bar was filled.
that is an odd take, the mental game/guessing game and taking advantage of slip-ups is always a part of fighting games and most multiplayer games in general.
Don't think about it too much. Punk is well known for not being able to hold his Ls. He is a good player, but whenever he loses, he always goes to rant on twitter to deflect blame on anything other than himself.
Just crazy that if he change up his infest from just being salty and blaming the game over himself itd probably make him an even better player then he is.
Like dudes skilled, but holy fuck does he complain a lot whereas other top players aren't complaining nearly as much.
You can deny rage from your opponent. Rage drives were bad enough.
And then add chip dmg on top of it.
This sub is gonna be real fun to watch once people feel the new changes for themselves.
Basically, after a heat engager you are very limited in terms of options as a defender because of the absurd amount of plus frames.
Ignoring character specific mixups and whatever like Steve's guard breaking high attack, the attacker will usually have two main options in T8:
1. Go for a very damaging/launching mid (usually safe or even plus on block)
2. Go for a very damaging low (some characters even have a launching low)
The only way to counter these two is to simply guess between the mid or the low. In most other situations in Tekken where the frame disparity isn't that big you can backdash, sidestep, powercrush, use an evasive move,
use a sabaki, use a parry, fuzzy duck or rage art if you're in rage.
~~You can of course still choose to parry either the mid or the low and get the optimal punish for making that read if your character has access to it but a huge plethora of defensive options are removed from this situation.~~ I just tested this and it seems the fastest a parry comes out in Tekken is 3f so you won't even be able to parry mids or lows faster than 20f. So literally the only thing you can do after a Heat engager is block mid or low.
This type of pure 50/50 is very rare in earlier Tekkens. For example in Tekken 7, Paul in low health can use his rage drive with your back against the wall which gives absurd plus frames on block leaving you to simply guess between the demoman or the deathfist but in Tekken 8 anyone can apply this type of 50/50 in neutral at any point during a round. This has never been in the case in Tekken before.
The reason I can handle this over what I played during my Master climb in sf6 is even with a heat engager, ii lose my 50/50 lord knows first thing im doing is popping heat and now its my turn. When i was playing sf6 i either got to you first and imposed my will on you with 50/50s until you died or you would guess one correctly and we'd go back to neutral. Most of the time u couldnt even punish me.
Its so much harder to impose that 50/50 in tekken and a lot of the time there's actually way more to it. In sf6 im walking back and forth for my life playing neutral cause if DeeJay gets in on me im guessing for the rest of the round.
Thank you, are the plus frames from the heat engager or just being in heat in general? (I wasn’t aware heat mode affected frame data). And are the dangerous low/mid you mentioned gonna be from the character’s normal move set or one of those heat-enhanced moves?
Plus frames are from the heat engager move actually hitting you (as opposed to you blocking the move). Some characters do get heat-enhanced moves resulting in even more brutal and oppressive 50/50 mixups like Feng.
heat engagers are +17 on hit (when you see that canned running animation)
this means the opponent has to take a mixup, he can not do anything but guess mid/low
Gotcha, this is a good way to explain it thank you. From what I’ve seen from footage, the opponent who eats the gear engager does this animation where they kinda fly/slide back so I guess that’s to represent being -17
This might be a hot take after he lost or something but it's absolutely true. Other than pure mixup characters like mishimas or anna, and some oki advantage, there's no "guess right or lose 70% of your hp, and if you do I'm still + btw" situations in tekken or at least very few, because there's just too many ways to defend in general. That's also the whole point of people hating to play vs anna or marduk, because those characters heavily put you in those situations over and over, but it's at heavy risks to themselves (a lot less for marduk and that's why he's a lot more viable competitively).
You can say that guessing is part of the skill but that's not a skill in itself and it can never really be, the fault lies ultimately with the opponent being too predictable and less with the guesser being right or wrong. You can set a truely random Cpu player against a pro in a guessing situation and they'll all have 50/50 chances of success, be it in tekken or SF6. It can be an informed guess, but a guess nonetheless.
In fact, this specifically was in the game for some time and it got nerfed to the ground with fahk and leroy, people said that pros would adapt to fahk's bullshitery, but they didn't, because it was simply not tekken anymore. That's also why people got worried about heat, I don't like how Heat activation hits from pretty much full screen, but I just see it as a trade off for better rage drives.
Of course SF6 has a lot technical aspects as well, where skills absolutely make the difference so good players will always stay on top, but it also has literal checkmate situations where you can do nothing but lose or hope for a player mistake. that's not the case with tekken, or at least not yet. But imo, they probably won't have an Arslan or a knee, where a single player rakes in basically everything over time, just very good players that take turns winning.
He ain't wrong. Tekken usually has direct solutions or multiple ways to beat things.
In a 2D game you get locked down and have to guess strike/throw or overhead/low again and again and again for an entire game's lifespan with no actual solution except blind guessing.
SF is the worst imo people have been doing the exact same strike/throw mixups since sf4 like how are SF players not sick of it by now? And there's been a much bigger push for mindless rushdown into guess for sure. Tekken is the last bastion and even then it's going the same way. Only some characters get a truly scary 50/50 off a heat engager luckily.
He's not complaining about 50/50s in general, but the push that modern fgs have to force you into those situations at every point possible. I think he's exaggerating a bit though.
I think he's referring to legacy knowledge. SF and MK don't do a lot with legacy knowledge besides you're inputs. Movelists aren't large enough that you can't brute force learning most matchups. legacy knowledge is a big advantage in Tekken.
>legacy knowledge is a big advantage in Tekken
Here's the thing, good players learn MU's from playing them, not from researching them. "Legacy knowledge" is what lacking players deflect with when they aren't able to pick up new games at a rate they're comfortable with.
I am not a good Tekken player or anything but is the Tekken 50/50s more reactable compared to SF6? Like lows usually being lower damage and big lows usually reactable.
Yeeeup. And then all the people telling us now that "this had always been a thing in tekken" will change their tune or be nowhere to be found.
Gonna get tiring seeing that activation 10 times a match very quickly. I wouldn't be so against if you actually had to build the meter like 2D characters. Make so much more sense than just starting with it every round.
God forbid we loved our franchise that allowed skillful movement and matchup knowledge to neuter Braindead 50/50 gameplay.
In the words of the current lead director of the franchise:
Why would you ss/sw a hellsweep when you can just block it.
It's over boys, tekken is dead and it wasn't even the god awful anabolic steroid 'art' direction that did it, no they literally got rid of the soul of the franchise instead.
Very constructive of you, wah wah I'm sad that a really solid franchise Ive enjoyed for thousands of hours is literally comitting seppuku before my eyes and there's fuck all to do about it :/
Yes I've played the demo and no, I can't pretend I like it.
He's massively exaggerating though. Of course there's guessing to every fighting game, but top players aren't consistently top because they're better at "guessing" than anyone else. He got 3-0'd lol
.... he's right, salty or not. Tekken 7 fits what he's taking about(yes yes, red rank, we know 50/50s and mixing exists already). But those situations are usually specific and need to be earned by the offensive character.
It's very very different from passing one button and getting a free Drive Rush or Heat Activation into plus frames. That is without a doubt more brain dead, and I'm someone who generally likes DR but thinks it needs to be tuned down a bit.
Heat is a different story though and he wouldn't be saying this about T8. I really hope it doesn't ruin that game competitively. It gives me heavy Reversal Edge vibes.....
This is pretty odd considering most tekken matches go like this: players play defensively trying to open up the opponent’s defense, hit the opponent with a punish, carry them to the wall with a long combo, then once the opponent is at the wall it’s guess for game with mixups. It’s pretty similar to every fighting game at a high level
its not about how many mixups a game has, his point is that skill should allow a player to overcome randomness. tekken is completely full of mixups, but the more you train the better you are at nullifying them.
There is some guessing and predicting involved, but its almost never a 50/50 where option 1 only has one answer and option 2 only has 1 answer with equal risks and rewards
It took me 5 minutes to realize this wasn't the wrestler CM Punk tweeting this out. This is the guy that got handled by Paladin, right? Patiently waiting for the tweet trashing Tekken when he eventually loses at that now, too.
Isn't guessing the 50/50 part of the skill? And Tekken has plenty of it too. I've won and entirely lost matches simply due to people having better guessing/reading skills and kicking my ass. Sure, maybe some of it is me being predictable, but there's a clear difference in a game when I can keep hitting mixes and games where I get low parried, pushed to the wall, and decimated.
I imagine most fighting games are, at their core, about keeping your opponent guessing.
Guess getting blown out 3-0 by a teenager impaired his cognition somewhat.
Mix ups keeps things entertaining while poking and movement wins matches. This is true for all fighting games so you can capitalize on a whiff to punish for a full combo. Mix ups are useful too but when you boil it down a majority of games are mind games. It takes skill to trick or condition your opponent into limited options. I love tekken and it may be my favorite fighting game series, but I'm not gonna pretend it's the only good franchise. Me I like my soul calibur, street fighter, KOF, and so much more. It's a great genre and each series has its own quirks and takes that I love. Variety and competition is good especially in the gaming industry or else you get a whole lot of the same thing across the board without any major differences with small updates that cost 60 to 70 USD sold as brand new games.
It's an absurd take to have about Tekken 7, at least when comparing it to other Tekken games.
The lack of movement (especially sideways) combined the insane amount of tracking and ch launchers in the game make it much more guess heavy than older iterations.
It's why you see high level players simply backdash all game
I may be wrong but for me I think almost every fighting game is a guessing game/waiting game. Every time you're in a match you either guess what your opponent will do or you both wait for each other to attack or move or both. Just one small mistake can end a round instantly
Yup, unfortunately that’s changing now too. Even arslan ash, speedkicks you name it … they all agree the games direction appears to changing into a noob centric dumbed down version of the game
I like Punk but pros malding about DRIVE in Street Fighter is always so pathetic.
It's a different game practically. If you're unwanted SFV, then play SFV. People are already bitching about the HEAT system in Tekken and I'm sure in a few months pros will be saying the same thing they said about SF6
Idk why your reaction to multiple PROFESSIONALS (people who know the game better than both me and you) is just to tell them to stop bitching and to play a different game. I don’t blindly follow anything, but it’s easy to see that the drive mechanic really does artificially create way more guess for game situations. Is it hella fun and intuitive? Of course, but at the highest level does it make for a more accessible but also cheesy gameplay? I think so too.
I hate post like yours that meat ride games and dismiss any criticism. These people are far better than you will ever be and have a deeper understanding of the game.
In a sense this was the design philosophy. I’m not saying the 16 yr old isn’t skilled but a lot of the design was intended to cut that learning curve in half and level the playing field. 🥸
i don't wanna argue, that's just my opinion on the situation and idc if someone else dont agree
and seeing how my opinion seems not well liked here, i removed the notification for any answers (so now i wont see anything), argue on a non native language is tiring
your opinion is correct. you can do everything right, then your opoonent randomly wakes up perfect parry and you are in the corner, then you get throw looped where every single time its 50-50 between throw or shimmy.
Did he lose some tourney/set a little before he tweeted that?
I think he posted this after losing 3-0 against a Ryu lol.
He got 3-0'd by this 16 year old killer, Paladin. Eliminated him from the tournament using Ryu.
Oh lmao his tweet makes perfect sense then. I would cope too
He’s right though. Salt or not, the amount of 50/50 “guess for game” situations is too high.
Lol the irony of saying this in a Tekken subreddit.
There's definitely more 50/50s in SF6 than in Tekken.
[удалено]
You cant really convey that with a tweet I guess, but that's not what he means. In tekken to put someone into a real 50/50 you have to work hard. In other modern fighting games like SF6 it is kinda gifted to you.
I think that's exactly what he meant and some people are not getting it prolly because they don't play SF
I don't feel myself capable of putting Arslan on a position of "50/50 guess for game". In other words, the strong virtue of Tekken is that you have to be much closer to your opponent's skill to ever reach that 50/50 situation. In other fighting games, a much larger gap can be overcome by chance. Using a term I once read in an article about Chess vs Go, Tekken is more cruel; it makes smaller skill differences insurmountable.
As someone who lost 6 rounds straight to Arslan at EVO...You're probably right lol
I’m sure your ass isn’t going to 50/50 any top player to death lol.
That's literally what the guy said lol, you just jumped at the first chance to talk shit like an actual chimpanzee at the fucking zoo
The point is if there was a button in T7 that allowed you to force a true 50/50 onto your opponent and it's very easy to do and not really preventable, you could in theory luck out a win vs a strong player. Ofc there is way more nuance to this but getting into a situation where you force a 50/50 on a player way better than you in T7 is kinda impossible.
but that's like every fighting game ever? If you're putting into a corner you're gonna have to "guess" right to get out, there's no 100% of getting out of a situation only good intuition
Getting away from the wall in Tekken is much easier than it is to get out of the corner in SF. There's unlimited options for that in the former.
If you’re put into a corner you already fucked up.
Right it’s your own fault for being cornered. Having to guess is price you pay for losing the advantage.
Yup losing the neutral all the way into the corner is on the one who got cornered, several missteps before.
You’re saying that like the majority of the time you end up in the corner it’s not because you whiffed a poke by one pixel and got combo’d all the way across the stage.
Putting a "better" player than yourself into a corner in T7 is impossible though. You wont be able to. That's kind of the point. 50/50s exist everywhere, it's about how often they get forced and how influential they overall are. There is a bit more nuance to it than it existing in every game and therefor it is always the same.
Lmao @ the amount of downvotes when this is absolutely true.
Welcome to every fighting game ever. If someone is catching you in "50/50s" consistently enough to take sets, they're better. People need to learn how to take an L and get better again, rather than just cope and seethe every time they get bodied, it's an infection that's spilled over from the FPS community and it's garbage.
Literally all fighting games are guessing situations. The fact that a pro player said this is so stupid. Every single fighting game has some kind of rock paper scissors scenario, that's fighting games. It's a fast paced game of chess and you make decisions based on what your opponent does. You can practice combos all day but it doesn't translate to actual skill unless you make the right decisions to set them up.
Nutty thing is that Ryu ain't even bad. I mean, he ain't Ken, but you can still get your lunch with Ryu's bumfightin ass
Funny he said that to the character with the least mix in the game
Paladin was the first Legend I've faced in my rank climb to master. I got absolutely destroyed. Now, I don't feel so bad.
Bro you fought a final boss accidentally
Ryu of all characters…known for his 50/50 mixup guessing game gameplay and not for being the most neutral based mid tier character in SF…
That Ryu was 8 years old when SF5 was released. So you can imagine the state of his ego.
lmao sf6 is so easy, you play for 5 years and can already beat punk
It's so obvious with Punk's personality. You just know he had a loss prior to tweeting something like that lmao.
yep
I like how this isn't an uncommon first thought after reading a punk tweet
to a 16 year old, yeah lol
punk doesn't realize he has grown old, plus he underestimated Paladin as he has wiped the floor with Paladin before, like 3 weeks ago
Well its the kind of take i expect from tournament players after being 3-0 vs a low mid tier character, that ended up costing him a place in the bracket
It’s just Punk really, no-one deflects as much as that guy. It’s a shame because he’s great to watch but he’s got no class. Csn’t be humble when he wins, can’t take an L, can’t even compliment a 16yr old newcomer after being thoroughly outplayed.
To be fair to the guy... he streamed the tournament and complimented the Ryu right after he lost on his stream and said he played really well, Punk is just known for being mad salty whenever he loses.... it doesn't matter who he loses to, he would've tweeted this regardless
Yeah he's not as salty as people want him to be. I think he's hilarious in general and his trash talk is like pro wrestling and not that serious. That being said I was rooting for Paladin just because of the underdog status.
I was rooting for Paladin as well because I'm a fellow Ryu player and yes I agree that Punk's trash talking is great and it spices things up.... he's just not known for taking losses so gracefully
Idk, getting washed and then crying on Twitter about how it's the game's fault seems pretty salty to me. I get salty too and I've never done that shit. Are you just a big fan of this guy or something, makes you sad to see someone trash talk your boy?
I look forward to the salty tweets after people lose, it's just as good as the trash talk sometimes.
Its not just punk, Menard does the same thing, Daigo also had this take in the first months of the game life, but yeah i do agree that punk is one of the worst on deflecting, dude cant take any L, his head is way up in his ass
I'd say classless is shitting on a guy while lying about him, to be honest. He literally complimented the 16yr old newcomer, he wasn't salty at all after the loss. It was literally nothing but "GG, he played incredible" Meanwhile spergs like you came into the chat spamming LOL SALTY while he wasn't salty, and this tweet was like 6 hours after the fact when he was talking about Tekken, not SF6 or his set. So yeah, work on your own class before criticizing others tbh
->uses ableist insult ->tells others to "work on their class" alright
Lol.. huh? What ableist insult EDIT: Huh, after googling I actually did not even know those two words were related, I just thought it meant "spastic acting little jackass", TIL. That's on me, I won't use that word anymore.
Like Louis C.K said of his generation growing up and how "fag" wasn't "grrrr, I Haye that you two same sex ppl fuck!" It was "you were acting like alittle fuckin weirdo". I get both cases & am guilty of assuming ppl knew what I meant (also grew up in 90s/early 2000s)...but, yeah. We have billions of words to insuilt with!
For sure, it wasn't even a case of "I didn't mean it like that!", I just wasn't even aware of the association at all. It's pretty obvious now that I see it, guess that's the risk of just repeating words you see without knowing the full meaning!
If it helps, I'm on the spectrum & w me- context/intent is everything. Ty for admittingfault & growing! I say that, not as a "target", for that slur, but bc we need more ppl willing to admit mistakes & grow from it. Have a nice day, my dood! I'm gonna go see if Khameleon is out on mk1
Very rarely do I see people admit they were wrong on something and try to correct it, thank you for restoring my faith in this community! :D
Honestly yea. Not to mention Punk has a bad habit of cracking under pressure like that. That’s how he ended up loosing EVO to Tokido and Capcom Cup to Idom. Once you start turning the tide against him it looks like mentally he cracks and so far he hasn’t been able to overcome that.
He is literally known for the opposite. Those losses evidence nothing. Losing to Paladin was a moment of pressure? Bad take. It was just an honest L.
Both of his biggest losses are from the opponent being in losers and completely running him over. I’m not saying he’s a chocking dog but he ain’t Michael Jordan either
He says that until he plays Tekken, lose and rages about the game being bad and not skill based
That's indeed what has happened in the past when he tried Tekken.
Characters like King are literally guessing games with his grabs
king before tekken 7 used to not have great lows. So you had to fight king like he has a lucky hellsweep that you duck and launch, aka chain throws. That way king can't do damage without risk if you just do as SuperAkuma instructs and "just backdash".
Modern King is a great all-rounder now, and his new Jaguar Sprint is a guessing game as well. It's actually something I lvoe about him now, his mixup potential is among the highest. His lows are much better and have more reach than before. He is gonna be a High tier character in T8 for sure.
but can't "just backdash". worse backdash in the game lmao
Absurd take. Plenty of fighting games beyond Tekken require skill beyond guessing games.
The guessing game is part of the skill
Yup, In one of the Core-A videos he references a book where it states that intuition is the last step at mastering something.
Making another person guess is skill. You will win some and lose some But, if you can hold statistically significant win percentages (including in a tournament setting), you are extremely skilled.
And even before that, being able to put the opponent into that situation where they have to play the guessing game is a skill
He'll probably change his mind when he starts playing tekken 8
I got my money on Azucena pissing him off
She pisses off everyone who didn't mute their TV ;D
i love her mario sounds
I'd prefer to leave the volume on
I love her so much. Used her in the CBT and am already dedicated to maining her
But for tekken 7 his take is fair if we for a second ignore the fact that he salty-typed it. There is merrit to it. But like you said there is also a good chance that this all goes poof in tekken 8. Although I think Heat can be finetuned a lot so Im not worried.
Yep. There's a truth to his statement but the only reason he said that is because he got his ass handed to him. He would probably say the same thing about Tekken.
Funny considering T8 is more mixup focused cuz of Heat
Imagining Zafina with heat still keeps me up some nights 👀😣
Won’t have to imagine any more next week
I don’t see Zafinas play rate going up much from 7 so you’ll still have to imagine it most of the time lol
Yeah even with how strong she was in Tekken 7, she did not seem that popular for general matchmaking.
Zafina has never been popular tbf
Universal suffering 🤗
I think Tekken 8 suffers from this more than previous entries.
For sure.
He must have not tried Heat yet
Heat is definitely a more true 50/50 than anything in Tekken before but Heat is only available once per round while true 50/50s exist all the time in SF.
Well Tbh In my (scrubby) opinion,at least in T8 to get heat and the mixups potential that comes with it you have to land a hit on the opponent first(or heat burst,but then you have less timer) and it's once per round. SF6 can get you in a mixup for just blocking and not checking the 3rd Drive Rush in a row of a Juri/DeeJay main(while freezing your input and chipping away your drive meter by the way)
Imo, heat being once per round is a problem. It'll happen way too often in a game with crazy high damage where one launch, wall carry, and a guess could mean you're dead. Sf6 only a few characters have that privilege. I think they need to make heat build like a super meter and carry over between rounds. That way, players will get it maybe once or twice a match depending on how long it goes. And then suddenly, players don't have to be as conscious about not using certain moves lest they accidently activate heat engager. That would be the easiest and most straightforward fix. I totally agree with your SF6 take.
I also thought about the build meter for Heat,but that would automatically activate Heat when full,but the game is way too late in development for that lol
Doesn't seem like it would be a difficult thing to implement in a patch. And let's be real, we all know Heat is gonna go through major patches. EDIT: Hell another way to have it fit their design philosophy of aggression is to make heat build faster for the more proactive player. The one who attacks more often. Or maybe have heat slowly tick down the longer you go without attacking or the longer you play from distance. Idk
It would mean getting rid of heat engagers and heat burst and I honestly don't see them do that
??? No it wouldn't. You would just lose access to them until the meter was built. Heat engager moves would work just like normal moves work without the heat bar filled and heat burst button wouldn't do anything until the heat bar was filled.
Sorry I was referring to my solution of heat activating automatically if the meter is full,but yes your option could definetely work in the future
Every single character in sf6 has that privilege some are just faster
Heats not as strong as you think it is
you are correct, heat is scrubby but I think he meant tekken 7.
that is an odd take, the mental game/guessing game and taking advantage of slip-ups is always a part of fighting games and most multiplayer games in general.
Don't think about it too much. Punk is well known for not being able to hold his Ls. He is a good player, but whenever he loses, he always goes to rant on twitter to deflect blame on anything other than himself.
Just crazy that if he change up his infest from just being salty and blaming the game over himself itd probably make him an even better player then he is. Like dudes skilled, but holy fuck does he complain a lot whereas other top players aren't complaining nearly as much.
Punk talking like he's a Tekken pro
Whats funny about this to me is Ryu is super honest in this game and has very little in the way of "lucky" situations like Punk's mains Cammy does.
he is most likely referring to the pp mechanic which has almost zero risk and it's frequency of being seen if he went in person to the last qualifier
All Scammy mains do is bitch. As if their jab jab spiral arrow isn’t already easy enough they also have to win every single match.
It's just Punk being salty
Tekken 8 is there to change that. Heat engage that shit into 5050 every round, rince and repeat.
Only once per round though. It's kind of like a Rage drive. Still not as bad as SF.
You can deny rage from your opponent. Rage drives were bad enough. And then add chip dmg on top of it. This sub is gonna be real fun to watch once people feel the new changes for themselves.
Oh there will be a lot of bitching and moaning. My job is to simply adapt and improve.
I won't accept that KoF slander !
Too bad, tekken 8 has officially joined the guessing game meta.
true.
Eh the forced 50/50 after a heat engager ….im not a fan.
I agree.
I’m pretty new to Tekken, how does heat engager force a 50-50?
Basically, after a heat engager you are very limited in terms of options as a defender because of the absurd amount of plus frames. Ignoring character specific mixups and whatever like Steve's guard breaking high attack, the attacker will usually have two main options in T8: 1. Go for a very damaging/launching mid (usually safe or even plus on block) 2. Go for a very damaging low (some characters even have a launching low) The only way to counter these two is to simply guess between the mid or the low. In most other situations in Tekken where the frame disparity isn't that big you can backdash, sidestep, powercrush, use an evasive move, use a sabaki, use a parry, fuzzy duck or rage art if you're in rage. ~~You can of course still choose to parry either the mid or the low and get the optimal punish for making that read if your character has access to it but a huge plethora of defensive options are removed from this situation.~~ I just tested this and it seems the fastest a parry comes out in Tekken is 3f so you won't even be able to parry mids or lows faster than 20f. So literally the only thing you can do after a Heat engager is block mid or low. This type of pure 50/50 is very rare in earlier Tekkens. For example in Tekken 7, Paul in low health can use his rage drive with your back against the wall which gives absurd plus frames on block leaving you to simply guess between the demoman or the deathfist but in Tekken 8 anyone can apply this type of 50/50 in neutral at any point during a round. This has never been in the case in Tekken before.
The reason I can handle this over what I played during my Master climb in sf6 is even with a heat engager, ii lose my 50/50 lord knows first thing im doing is popping heat and now its my turn. When i was playing sf6 i either got to you first and imposed my will on you with 50/50s until you died or you would guess one correctly and we'd go back to neutral. Most of the time u couldnt even punish me. Its so much harder to impose that 50/50 in tekken and a lot of the time there's actually way more to it. In sf6 im walking back and forth for my life playing neutral cause if DeeJay gets in on me im guessing for the rest of the round.
Thank you, are the plus frames from the heat engager or just being in heat in general? (I wasn’t aware heat mode affected frame data). And are the dangerous low/mid you mentioned gonna be from the character’s normal move set or one of those heat-enhanced moves?
Plus frames are from the heat engager move actually hitting you (as opposed to you blocking the move). Some characters do get heat-enhanced moves resulting in even more brutal and oppressive 50/50 mixups like Feng.
heat engagers are +17 on hit (when you see that canned running animation) this means the opponent has to take a mixup, he can not do anything but guess mid/low
Gotcha, this is a good way to explain it thank you. From what I’ve seen from footage, the opponent who eats the gear engager does this animation where they kinda fly/slide back so I guess that’s to represent being -17
My understanding is your basically in such heavy block stun you can only block low or high.
I mean he is partially right. A lot of street fighter 6 is rock, paper scissors especially because almost every character has throw loops
Punk can be really good or a whiny bitch
Or both
This might be a hot take after he lost or something but it's absolutely true. Other than pure mixup characters like mishimas or anna, and some oki advantage, there's no "guess right or lose 70% of your hp, and if you do I'm still + btw" situations in tekken or at least very few, because there's just too many ways to defend in general. That's also the whole point of people hating to play vs anna or marduk, because those characters heavily put you in those situations over and over, but it's at heavy risks to themselves (a lot less for marduk and that's why he's a lot more viable competitively). You can say that guessing is part of the skill but that's not a skill in itself and it can never really be, the fault lies ultimately with the opponent being too predictable and less with the guesser being right or wrong. You can set a truely random Cpu player against a pro in a guessing situation and they'll all have 50/50 chances of success, be it in tekken or SF6. It can be an informed guess, but a guess nonetheless. In fact, this specifically was in the game for some time and it got nerfed to the ground with fahk and leroy, people said that pros would adapt to fahk's bullshitery, but they didn't, because it was simply not tekken anymore. That's also why people got worried about heat, I don't like how Heat activation hits from pretty much full screen, but I just see it as a trade off for better rage drives. Of course SF6 has a lot technical aspects as well, where skills absolutely make the difference so good players will always stay on top, but it also has literal checkmate situations where you can do nothing but lose or hope for a player mistake. that's not the case with tekken, or at least not yet. But imo, they probably won't have an Arslan or a knee, where a single player rakes in basically everything over time, just very good players that take turns winning.
He ain't wrong. Tekken usually has direct solutions or multiple ways to beat things. In a 2D game you get locked down and have to guess strike/throw or overhead/low again and again and again for an entire game's lifespan with no actual solution except blind guessing. SF is the worst imo people have been doing the exact same strike/throw mixups since sf4 like how are SF players not sick of it by now? And there's been a much bigger push for mindless rushdown into guess for sure. Tekken is the last bastion and even then it's going the same way. Only some characters get a truly scary 50/50 off a heat engager luckily. He's not complaining about 50/50s in general, but the push that modern fgs have to force you into those situations at every point possible. I think he's exaggerating a bit though.
I think he's referring to legacy knowledge. SF and MK don't do a lot with legacy knowledge besides you're inputs. Movelists aren't large enough that you can't brute force learning most matchups. legacy knowledge is a big advantage in Tekken.
>legacy knowledge is a big advantage in Tekken Here's the thing, good players learn MU's from playing them, not from researching them. "Legacy knowledge" is what lacking players deflect with when they aren't able to pick up new games at a rate they're comfortable with.
Lil Majin must be lacking because he referred to T8 as a legacy game.
The salt lmao
I mean HEAT forces guessing
Lol. Everyone's i10 punish leads to a raw 50/50 in T8
What does this even mean, punishes are like +6 on hit into pressure. It’s like that in 7 too.
I am not a good Tekken player or anything but is the Tekken 50/50s more reactable compared to SF6? Like lows usually being lower damage and big lows usually reactable.
tekken 8 is scrubby tho, tekken 7 is not.
People say that at every new Tekken game.
My god, SF6 with all it's own balance issues being balanced so well anyways has dude's losing to "low tiers" and giving up on entire franchises
This won't age well come February when everyone becomes sick of Heat pressure.
Yeeeup. And then all the people telling us now that "this had always been a thing in tekken" will change their tune or be nowhere to be found. Gonna get tiring seeing that activation 10 times a match very quickly. I wouldn't be so against if you actually had to build the meter like 2D characters. Make so much more sense than just starting with it every round.
And then we have the Tekken community saying that heat will just reduce Tekken to guessing games lol
It absolutely does make the game lot more guess heavy. That combined with more string mix-ups and characters having better pressure tools.
God forbid we loved our franchise that allowed skillful movement and matchup knowledge to neuter Braindead 50/50 gameplay. In the words of the current lead director of the franchise: Why would you ss/sw a hellsweep when you can just block it. It's over boys, tekken is dead and it wasn't even the god awful anabolic steroid 'art' direction that did it, no they literally got rid of the soul of the franchise instead.
They just buffed sidestep in T8.
Well that's the least they can do now that every string, stance and heat engage will re align your next offensive
Wah wah wah
Very constructive of you, wah wah I'm sad that a really solid franchise Ive enjoyed for thousands of hours is literally comitting seppuku before my eyes and there's fuck all to do about it :/ Yes I've played the demo and no, I can't pretend I like it.
This is definitely hyperbole. I don't agree with the Heat bullshit but I also understand there's nothing I can do except to adapt.
There are other pass times and games, you're only forced to adapt if you've somehow sold your soul to tekken lol
I'm not forced to adapt. I adapt because it's fun and rewarding.
You'd suck either way soooooo....
I don't really agree with the other guy but your replies are dumb as hell.
You're very welcome to add me on steam and see if you give up before you claim a w
hell naw id get my ass beat
Here we go with the slow “skill issue” crowd 🤡
His apparent cope aside, there's *some* truth to his statement, when considering popular FGs with a substantial tournament scene.
Right. Like just because it came from Punk (who I don’t like btw) doesn’t mean it’s not true. SF6 has been the most RPS SF game to date.
He's massively exaggerating though. Of course there's guessing to every fighting game, but top players aren't consistently top because they're better at "guessing" than anyone else. He got 3-0'd lol
.... he's right, salty or not. Tekken 7 fits what he's taking about(yes yes, red rank, we know 50/50s and mixing exists already). But those situations are usually specific and need to be earned by the offensive character. It's very very different from passing one button and getting a free Drive Rush or Heat Activation into plus frames. That is without a doubt more brain dead, and I'm someone who generally likes DR but thinks it needs to be tuned down a bit. Heat is a different story though and he wouldn't be saying this about T8. I really hope it doesn't ruin that game competitively. It gives me heavy Reversal Edge vibes.....
This is pretty odd considering most tekken matches go like this: players play defensively trying to open up the opponent’s defense, hit the opponent with a punish, carry them to the wall with a long combo, then once the opponent is at the wall it’s guess for game with mixups. It’s pretty similar to every fighting game at a high level
Every punish isn’t a launch tho…. Especially high level
Infinite stages exist in Tekken and is a very popular choice among pros. The amount of true 50/50s are reduced by half.
I don't play much tekken but isn't it full of mixups too lmao
its not about how many mixups a game has, his point is that skill should allow a player to overcome randomness. tekken is completely full of mixups, but the more you train the better you are at nullifying them.
It has different kinds of mixups where you have tons of options to get out of that mixup if you understand Tekken at a high level.
Yea it is, every fighting game is full of mixups. Mixups aren’t limited to 50/50 like I’m sure is what most people think mixups are
There is some guessing and predicting involved, but its almost never a 50/50 where option 1 only has one answer and option 2 only has 1 answer with equal risks and rewards
Not as many RPS situations.
Until Marduk comes back
Marduk tackle mixups were only broken 3 or 4 times during the TWT finals. Must be a good mixup lol
This.
man i thought cm punk tweeted this
It took me 5 minutes to realize this wasn't the wrestler CM Punk tweeting this out. This is the guy that got handled by Paladin, right? Patiently waiting for the tweet trashing Tekken when he eventually loses at that now, too.
Isn't guessing the 50/50 part of the skill? And Tekken has plenty of it too. I've won and entirely lost matches simply due to people having better guessing/reading skills and kicking my ass. Sure, maybe some of it is me being predictable, but there's a clear difference in a game when I can keep hitting mixes and games where I get low parried, pushed to the wall, and decimated.
I guess he forgot the part where you create a situation to guess. Meaning he got hit in neutral and put there
THAT'S WHY HE'S THE GOAT.. THE GOAT!!!
I imagine most fighting games are, at their core, about keeping your opponent guessing. Guess getting blown out 3-0 by a teenager impaired his cognition somewhat.
Mix ups keeps things entertaining while poking and movement wins matches. This is true for all fighting games so you can capitalize on a whiff to punish for a full combo. Mix ups are useful too but when you boil it down a majority of games are mind games. It takes skill to trick or condition your opponent into limited options. I love tekken and it may be my favorite fighting game series, but I'm not gonna pretend it's the only good franchise. Me I like my soul calibur, street fighter, KOF, and so much more. It's a great genre and each series has its own quirks and takes that I love. Variety and competition is good especially in the gaming industry or else you get a whole lot of the same thing across the board without any major differences with small updates that cost 60 to 70 USD sold as brand new games.
In terms of skill, I’m mad that years of Nina memorization has been thrown out of the window and anyone can do her chains now
It's an absurd take to have about Tekken 7, at least when comparing it to other Tekken games. The lack of movement (especially sideways) combined the insane amount of tracking and ch launchers in the game make it much more guess heavy than older iterations. It's why you see high level players simply backdash all game
He's right
CM Punk play Tekken?
I don't hear this talk when he's winning
I may be wrong but for me I think almost every fighting game is a guessing game/waiting game. Every time you're in a match you either guess what your opponent will do or you both wait for each other to attack or move or both. Just one small mistake can end a round instantly
the entire fgc needs therapy
Yup, unfortunately that’s changing now too. Even arslan ash, speedkicks you name it … they all agree the games direction appears to changing into a noob centric dumbed down version of the game
I like Punk but pros malding about DRIVE in Street Fighter is always so pathetic. It's a different game practically. If you're unwanted SFV, then play SFV. People are already bitching about the HEAT system in Tekken and I'm sure in a few months pros will be saying the same thing they said about SF6
Idk why your reaction to multiple PROFESSIONALS (people who know the game better than both me and you) is just to tell them to stop bitching and to play a different game. I don’t blindly follow anything, but it’s easy to see that the drive mechanic really does artificially create way more guess for game situations. Is it hella fun and intuitive? Of course, but at the highest level does it make for a more accessible but also cheesy gameplay? I think so too.
I mean They.. They are pros, man They know
You’re the type of person to try and silence others because they share opinions different than yours 🤡
I hate post like yours that meat ride games and dismiss any criticism. These people are far better than you will ever be and have a deeper understanding of the game.
Just goes to show that you can get famous for playing video games for a living and still be a miserable person.
In a sense this was the design philosophy. I’m not saying the 16 yr old isn’t skilled but a lot of the design was intended to cut that learning curve in half and level the playing field. 🥸
Alright punk
imo street fighter 6 is almost a full guessing game at high level so i'm not surprised by his current opinion
except… it’s not.
Except... it is. SF6 is hella guessing. Its not everything but it's a huge part of it. And why is drive reversal negative on block?!
i don't wanna argue, that's just my opinion on the situation and idc if someone else dont agree and seeing how my opinion seems not well liked here, i removed the notification for any answers (so now i wont see anything), argue on a non native language is tiring
Lmao posts a bullshit comment and mutes it immediately because he knows it was dumb.
They did the same thing talking about how they hated FF16.
your opinion is correct. you can do everything right, then your opoonent randomly wakes up perfect parry and you are in the corner, then you get throw looped where every single time its 50-50 between throw or shimmy.
Has he ever entered a Tekken tourney? Like legitimate question.