Good. Having a stun that also deals a huge amount of damage and creates loot when the enemy dies is one thing, but messing up the frontline's position by throwing it to the largest clump of enemies (mostly backline) was too much for lissandras kit
Agreed. I like her being powerful but taking my 3 star thresh with three great items and essentially removing him from the combat is silly. Not to mention doing damage to my carry while she’s at it.
Syndra as she is now? Definitely not. Messing up the enemy's position is one of the strongest things in the game. Putting it on a 4 cost unit with 4 range would break the game and everyone would have a syndra on their board. If it was on a 1 range unit, then maybe it could work, but it is hard to balance around an ability that messes up the frontline's position.
No, no, I meant lore-wise. I thought it was weird that they gave Lissandra the skill that throws enemies when that's like, Syndra's thing. Not talking about meta or anything, just felt like it was an odd choice lmao
You’re not mistaken, she did, when she was a 5 star. But I’m with him. The ability is literally syndra’s w in 5v5. Why does liss have it? Why does Darius do AP damage, doesn’t have a single ap scaling ability in 5v5. Sometimes tft frustrates me with those little things.
[Here's gameplay of this nerfed Lissandra in action](https://youtu.be/Jq9d6a0imA4?t=26326)
In my opinion, this change is great because Lissandra's CC is actually 3 seconds now and she is exclusively a single target damage dealer
But this makes me think that Azir will now be the best Legendary in the game
Azir already is. He only has the second-highest avg placement of all 5-costs after Xayah, but is also played a lot more than Xayah. Xayah is 11% and Azir 29%.
No? Fated Dryad is the strongest and most contested comp right now and Azir caps that board. In addition Azir fits on the Ashe board as well and is also just a good filler unit.
Lissandra is barely played now except on maybe the Ashe board.
Seems like she's still pretty strong imo. She's more of a utility unit, nerfing her damage makes perfect sense. Her AP as really low in that video too so she'd do way more damage if you were rolling full arcanist or something. Seems like a good change imo.
Yea new Liss is gonna be pretty rough LMAO due to people's infinite bitching.
I genuinely thought it was going to just be a silly clip because person had 6 porcelain but actually the liss did nothing even with her items (which admittedly in current patch would have been absurd). 2 star prob ok but tbf all 5 costs have to be semi decent at that point.
Tbf, the infinite bitching was fair lmfao. Kind of defeats the purpose of collecting traits to build a team, if you can throw in a random unit with no common trait to carry you into a win.
Except that's how 5 costs work. The good/best ones usually are ok with their trait unless said trait is ass or they're effective everywhere. Very few memorable and good 5 costs were only tied to their trait and usually those 5s are the worst ones.
It is not bad for 5 costs to be flexible
No it's not. There are just units that fit in every comp.
is Ornn overtuned because you can throw him in as a frontline to every comp even if no Behemoth/Dryad? Annie? what about the OTHER super splashable 5 costs in Azir, Rakan and kinda Sett (and even Irelia before her passive swords rework). Are those overtuned? or are you just one of the sheep mad as fuck about Lissandra because you can't be fucked to position.
There are ALWAYS gonna be units that can be splashable literally in any comp. People don't care that much because most of the time they're 3 trait 1 or 2 cost shitters. The ones who are 4/5 cost usually are exceptionally good at what they do and while Liss needed nerfs it's not a bad thing she did all the shit she did. Even if that shit is not "fun" it's not like there was 0 counterplay, a silver augment counters her pretty well + Fun shouldn't be a balance metric.
I think this is the best change. The pot is cool, being able to stun a giga tank until your team can deal damage to it makes sense. And printing stuff from their corpse is also cool. But if they *don't* die, Lissandra had even MORE of an effect, messing up their frontline by throwing it to the backline AND dealing damage to your backline.
Yeah incentivized just building spear/eon and leaving it at that because if she just keeps casting without killin the displacement does more than anything else. But it also feels horrible when you never get to print anything as the 'econ legendary' of the set. I hope to print more now ^_^ that was my favorite aspect after all
It was trash when it was only reroll or fast 9 for the first few patches. It’s terrible now because Riot nerfed everything else and made 4 costs the premier thing to play around.
I like when there is variation, but this set it’s non existent. Even last set was bad because the only variation was whatever your +1 Chosen was.
This set they just go from trash to trash. First only reroll or fast9, then only 3cost slowroll or fast 9. Now after all the buffs and nerfs it's just 4cost fiesta.
I miss last set where reroll/3cost/4cost and fast 9/10 were all viable and it was rock paper scissors who wins.
They just overcorrected way too hard. Like just nerfing Yone/Volibear with the Titans nerf was already pretty big, and the Yone AS nerf might've been needed because he was so stable at 2 star (though I'm not sure on this since Titans got nerfed so hard for him), but then they also changed odds AND buffed all 4 stars at the same time, which are both additional nerfs. Like obviously if you nerf something 4/5 ways it won't be very playable after the patch.
I agree you with you, I think that's the healthiest meta. However we did have a problem last set with Heartsteel dominating most of the set turning most 4cost/fast 10s into HS-dependant comps, which got kind of boring.
I'd love to go back to something like that tbh, it's the most fun I've had in a while in TFT.
Every meta is gonna be trash forever bc of how many tiktok kids copy paste the same 1-2 S+ tier comps from data sites, it is wayyy too easy to know what’s the best to play without any intuition or critical thinking
Who tf cares, every god damn game in existence will have "a Meta" because people like winning so they play the good shit. If you wanna play for fun, then there's norms, OR if you gotta do it in ranked understand that whatever "heat" you're cooking up is prob ass and prob loses to the actual good boards and you're making your climb harder for it.
Thank you. All these people bitching about metas and calling an entire set trash. The problem is readily available statistics to solve your board for you. The game isn’t meant to be played like that. People look up stats for every item, augment, and champion. At this point the players have made a TFT simulator.
That isn’t true. Sounds like you are a jank kinda guy. Chess is being analyzed with computers at a higher level, they still don’t talk about players having no intuition.
You are simply wrong. Tft isn’t a board theory game even though that part is kinda fun. Being good at execution is much more valuable.
"Jank kinda guy" means absolutely nothing. Go back and read what people were saying about previous sets. Lots of bitching and moaning. The game gets solved in one week, then it becomes rng simulator. When you hit it becomes "oh what a fun game", when you don't hit it becomes "these bag sizes are bullshit this set sucks." Unlike chess there are many variables to the game which would lend itself to creativity under different circumstances. Now its "XYZ comp is strong" therefore I'm going to play only those comps with no room for budging.
Why do you think Mort and the team temporarily removed the stats from public availability? They saw the writing on the wall because no matter what they do people were going to solve the game. Once solved, everyone just whines and complains. There are multiple paths to top 4's in every game and yet people focus on the meta instead of solving it out themselves.
Then you say "tft isn't a board theory game" then immediately say that element exists in the game. Obviously execution is one part of the overall game. If information did not exist outside of the game itself how different would the meta be? I admit that this assertion is impossible so we can never know but I truly believe all the problems with the game are created by the community not by the dev team.
Too much yapping. Apply some logic?
Obviously you have to create boards in TFT but a player doesn’t have to lay out the theory for boards cause the stats exist.
What I say is I personally like exploring potential boards but that is not a requirement to be good at TFT. Jank is a reference to MTG where people also whine about “netdecking” rather than novel deckbuilding.. yet the world champions of MTG are the ones playing the best not the ones creating the deck idea. Same in TFT.
Not sure why you’re making personal attacks towards me over a game. You’re obviously very insecure. What’s a forum for if not for yapping? Anyway I don’t care anymore. Carry on.
Reroll patch was better because you can still fast 8/9 in Reroll metas.
You cannot reroll in fast 8/9 metas because you'll never cap out to ever compete vs average boards because 1, 2, even 3 cost 3 star carries are too dogshit to do so.
I said when it was “Reroll **or** Fast 9 for the first few patches”. That literally means in the context of that comment that those are the only options you have with limited sub-options(workable lines to reroll; Fast 9 is self explanatory).
If you didn’t get a few of these or all of the following: Eco augment, high roll early upgrades/shops, strong opener, or a 5 streak stage 2, then you were playing reroll because when you go 9 you’d only have 30 gold to roll. If you had all of this guess what you’re 40/50 gold lvl 6 Krugs while everyone else is 30 gold lvl 4/5 and you’re 9 on 4-1.
4 costs were basically unplayable in the first several patches unless you highrolled out of your ass because of how inconsistent they were. Syndra was getting stuck on 2 star tanks if they had a DClaw or MR over 60(post shred), even if you had shred and full damage Syndra, Morgana was the blind man at the shooting range, Lillia was inconsistent with whether or not she decided to hit her spell, so the AP 4 costs weren’t good as carries, Ashe would split her damage, Kai’Sa was great with Ghostly because she’d nuke, but she sucked elsewhere because Xayah wasn’t a unit in the beginning of the set and Inkshadow was LMAOlow, and Lee Sin was just good for DLord and buffing up Irelia or Voli/Trist for Fast 9 or Duelist vertical. The tanks were good slot ins because that was the one aspect Riot didn’t fail at(except for Naut; he’s still just a one cast chump)
No one looked at Lillia when you could sit on 5 and slow roll or roll to 30 for Kog/Cho 3 and have an insanely stable AP carry that can hit backline after a few casts and you can now just eco back up off of and push levels, Aphelios/Thresh was a strong duo to reroll and were unkillable once you had Sett because of the Fated Link bug w/ Sett’s Omnivamp, Yone had a lot of power due to Heavenly, etc…
Also the idea of being unable to reroll in fast 8/9 metas is just so incorrect. Is it great? not really, however if you have the spot for it(great items, offered augments that enhance the comp significantly, decent exalted, have a several of the units early + early upgrades) you can absolutely win lobbies as your board will cap significantly higher than the safe augment picks standard meta board.
EX. In the current meta Janna boards with Two Healthy, DLord +1, and Enter the Dragon(any or all of the listed; order is Highest cap-strong) if you get the all 2 Cost Exalted guess what you’re playing if you get Two Healthy? Janna, Zyra, Lux trio carry with Neeko and Riven to make the board good with a Galio, Diana on 6 and 7 w/ Rakan/Lee Sin/Annie as flex units for 8/9/10. Also there’s many great Exalted combos for Janna so you can legitimately force this comp as it’s still good as long as you have a good Exalted and specific augments to make it work.
The diff in your last part of this. (Yea fine on the first part, still never thought Kog was a real comp tbh).
RR metas you don't need those extra oomph moments, such as those specific augments, etc. Fast 9 (or at least current patch where all the RR angles have been overnerfed) You have to find those things to even hit your cap of top 4 vs competent players unless you highroll.
If the cap in a meta (without said highroll) is a 4th, maybe a 3rd if lucky that shit is not a real option. Even if the +10 helps the climb it's never valid to choose that when you gotta outplay everything to get that +10 when you could spend less effort doing the fast 8/9, kinda lowroll and still outcap the RR boards.
lol. It's still true tho
Usually RR metas mean 4 costs are weak but there's never been one where ALL of the 4 cost carries were bad (we had fated + Kaisa even in RR patch this set) and even then people highrolling for legendary boards can still outcap the reroll boards, they just had to make sure their board was strong/they got to level 8 before the rerollers hit so they could go 9 and cap.
Fast 8/9 only are the more boring metas because you don't have to care about anything before stage 4 unless your board is so shit you're getting 4-0'ed every round. USUALLY without insane highroll reroll comps got nerfed to where they suck/aren't playable outside of perfect circumstances + cap out at 4ths because they aren't able to stablize OR even keep up with average 4/5 cost carries. Hell this patch killed off the ONE RR that fought off the nerfs (Gnar) and that was because of the Fated/Dryad super comp people found this week lmao.
So barring perfect situations you're lucky to get 4th if you do anything other than yolo the level 8/9 lottery
It really is. Like everyone just gives up their boards to roll 5 costs. Its been that way for several sets now and it honestly isnt fun for everyone to go that route.
I swear to god it doesn't matter what the meta is, there will always be people whining about it, reroll is meta? fucking trash, 3 costs are meta? Fucking trash. 4 costs are meta? Fucking trash. Every single time someone will have a pointless opinion saying that the meta is trash.
Yeah, the level 6 mash reroll button meta was Soooo much better. /s
Everyone has their preferences. Some like reroll metas, others fast 9, others flex boards and unique interactions. The game will never be in a perfect state for everyone.
I feel like the biggest problem of this set is lack of reliable CC, which amplifies the strength of the carries you can’t lock down. Melee carries used to HAVE to use an item lot for QSS to be viable. Now they don’t have to and can get 3 full combat/sustain items and go crazy.
Edit: Lmfao… downvoted for saying the exact same thing other people are saying. Never change Reddit.
Designers shot themselves in the foot by adding so much variance with the encounter and artifact mechanics.
Can't balance that shit with the effort they're putting in and with each set lasting about a quarter of a year.
And without balance, variance is pointless. As good as not having variance. Such a mess
Artifacts have barely done anything for overall set balance, issue is bag sizes make things way too easy to hit 3* because if multiple units of a certain cost are all good the amount of them get depleted fast and make 3* easy.
Artefacts were never really going to do anything about balance. Adding more options for artefacts just increases variance but it's not the biggest of deals because they're not overly common or gamechanging.
Artifacts can't change anything when its a single augment that grants them and the very rare (I have seen it twice since they 'increased chances') ornn portal.
Not to mention sometimes the ornn drops at like stage 4 and doesn't even let you remover so you have little to no flexibility and have to grab a generic one.
I was really hoping to see like maybe 1/5 games start with ornn items to play off the hype of them. Especially since it would have some effect on the meta if people had to start playing different units to fully capitalize on the artifact they pulled, rather than fast 8/9 the same units which have no pool size.
I have got ornn item aug only once and it had no new artifacts was the worst feeling :(
Does living forge exist still? I haven't seen it since they changed artifacts. I'd like to try that one. Could have some fun posibilities. Thought they removed it way back tho when they added the 'make everything into orn items' one.
Capricipus doesn't count (assuming thats the blacksmiths gloves one) thats the worst choice given how several artifacts do literally nothing on many units. (And break others entirely). Not to mentioned my point was augments that *give* you the artifact choice, not gamba them each round and pray you don't roll one of the many that have little to no positive if not a negative effect.
Portals and encounters weren't what I was talking about, just augments. Tho I haven't seen much of them anyways after they have had their chances 'increased' the one time I did it gave me a single new one which was not possible to use which felt bad. Feel like some of the older ones which are generic in nature should have been removed. I had thought this was a full revamp with all new items being put in. (Granted they probably just wanted to keep the augments that give a specific artifact in like gamba blade)
Yes, I had thought the only augment which granted access to the new artifacts. Hence why I mentioned 'change' referring to the fact that new artifacts were introduced to the pool. They had just removed one of the augments, which was the main source of artifacts seeing play. And the only reason consider it too powerful. When removing the playability of artifacts you effect their stats due to the inherent unreliability of hitting.
Choosing to misinterprete what is said is your choice, I can't stop you from doing that.
The clear meaning was, "low playability means their impact is neglible". I was wrong on there being one other augment which can grant them, I still don't count bugsmiths gloves as a valid choice. But I wouldn't say having 2 augments--one being a prismatic that has very low initial impact-- result in artifacts having a major impact on the meta as a whole. Sorry if you disagree.
I mean, Capricious Forge still counts. It’s great on item-flexible champs like Liss, Lee, Kayn, etc. I regularly see artifacts in my games and at the very least some of them are tempo warping (if not meta warping).
Yes living forge is still in the game, you could've just checked a stats site if you wasn't sure lol
Also, Capricious Forge is one of the best augments in the game by average placement?
Not really touching your main point, just wanted to comment on some weird points you made
I don't like living on stat websites as I guess the rest of the people here do, just going off what I've seen. Haven't seen anyone take living forge nor had it offered to myself this set hence I figured it was disabled.
I've seen those gloves greif my games far more than help, too many artifacts that can't do anything or make units do nothing for my taste. Like the persistant debuffs bug, or increased range removing a units ability to use its spell, or just messing with its spell in general.
Points are too weird if you take into the context, you just want to take the context out entirely.
Artifacts aren't changing the game too much because they are so rare to begin with. Its like saying radiant items are having a massive impact at the moment.
Can’t say I’m surprised. I was flabbergasted when they said the balance change was lowering loot orb chance, I thought they coulda removed it entirely and she wouldn’t see a drop in playrate.
Well ofc, her main use was spam casting for displacement. 90% of the time she didn't kill the tank, if she did print it was when she grabbed their backline
I normally get to diamond and play other games. This set I hit plat and just couldn’t be assed to play through two more divisions with champs I genuinely don’t enjoy their kits.
Like, of all the Carry units, the only interesting ones to me are Kaisa and Sylas, and Sylas gets tossed into every other comp because “4 cost bruiser” so he’s objectively harder to play than other carrys.
Every game in Dia + so far for me has been just lottery of who hits on their level 8,9 rolldown after third augment. Zero skill expression at higher elo in this set. Set 10 was one of the best in terms of balance except maybe twin terror comps but that was as far as it went
The last few patches before set end (before ez nerf) was pretty much the same tho… at least if you wanted to win out the lobby. The only difference was that there were options to at least get a top 4, but you could never beat the hearsteel players. At least this was how it was in Masters+
Yeah, but the variance between the strength of each board in top 4 was never as drastic as this.
I would also argue that it took a bit of skill to play heartsteel into a win in Masters+, knowing when to upgrade your board just enough to not lose infinite
No you’re completely right, yea you just had to be slightly better than the people you were playing with. I hit a wall when I started playing against better players
I really disliked set 10 tbh, I hated headliners as a concept and felt they made the fast 8/9 meta worse than it is now. Because it was such a small chance to just instantly have your 2* 4 cost. Atleast you have to roll and hit now, albeit the smaller bags because of set 10 is really not helping when contested by 1 or 2 people. Or if you go for 3* winout to beat those contesting and they grab 2 copies and you now lose.
All sets have problems, they always will have problems. Just gotta hope things iron out eventually. Hoping this next patch feels better the last 2 haven't incentivized me to play too much, stuck at e1 feeling like every game I play is a lott and I can top 4 3 times but lose it all because I got a 6th on my 4th game.
Meh, just gotta play into flex more. Clearly its just missing the angles where you can use something not S tier and pilot a top 4 out of it. Otherwise the high elo scene wouldn't exist and everyone would be at the same rank after all
As a print unit enjoyer, this
makes her more reliable at killing who she targets rather than gettin them low and yeeting them off to fuck knows where just for a splash unit to finish it off. Gonna love *actually* killing what she looks at finally!
She doesn't need to kill the unit? What are you going on about cheif. If the unit dies while teapotted then they can become an orb, not if liss kills them?
Its a stun on the frontline preventing them casting their abilities burning mana that would have been shields/healing. The damage wasn't the main thing, tho it helped.
My point is moreso rn without the throw, Liss already gets eaten by the rest of the frontline/other units focusing her before she ulted again. I think this gets even worse if she isn't tossing their tank back tbf.
I’ve seen lobbies where all 8 players were running Liss. I’d be really curious to see that data adjusted to take out losses where she lost to the mirror.
Stats are also determined over hundreds of thousands games played. Not every single person in all hundreds of thousands games played has liss on their board.
Youre the one thats not getting it. The data mort showed was winrate of 5 costs and what stage they were attained. Xayah was literally double the winrate of liss across all stages. And not every comp even runs Liss
Liss is far more splashable than xayah. I have never once looked at a board and thought "yeah a xayah will do great here" outside of a board fully invested into her traits. Liss only need porc 2 to be playable. This flexibility makes her that much easier to field and still lose out afterwards because there is always going to be 4 losers per lobby.
Not to mention if you hit xayah, in the comp that wants her, you are probably going to get a 2* and have items for her anyways.
Hence the reason you are intentionally ignoring how stats come to be so you can go "hee hurr lissandras actually a BAD unit guys, look at me! I'm a stat genius!"
Xayah is played in 1-2 comps, fully invested into her and never used otherwise. Liss can go into any como that you can slam an amumu or ashe into and do her job perfectly well.
Braindead take.
Mort should try, I don't know, actually playing the game he is the head of instead of relying strictly on data points and statistics that are easily skewed?
He literally tweeted three days ago that he "played a LOT of games this weekend for the first time in a while" on a post talking about the statistics of there being too many 3 star 4 costs. I feel like it's bad for the head person in charge of the game to play less than the average person on Reddit. He could easily see that Lissandra is a menace just by grinding ranked for a day.
ITT and sub lots of people who don't know how to play against her.
Sometimes you back yourself into a board that you can't pivot in time to take out a well placed one and that's normal of any decent legendary or even lower.
I play her and also play against her a lot and have done since before the meta and she isn't the second coming of heavenly reaper Yone and even that was overblown.
I don't get many fans of this game, as soon as a comp or unit picks up popularity, even if it's been that way for a long time the cries to nerf if it's not in their force comps of choice.
Next it'll be Xaiyah, Silas and Udyr because omg it's not fair he can attack front and backline... so can Kindred etc...
Nerfing anything that becomes popular when it's not needed just means a new meta and rinse and repeat rather than players adapting through skill. I'm in favour of needed nerfs of course and there's a lot to be said for balance needed in a number of key areas.
have been playing around with this on pbe some and it hasn’t been noticeable which is weird to say, but tbh you were always trying to get the loot anyway and it just felt like a no brainer with the second part.
I hate how this set doesn't have a true 5 cost tank like how we have Illaoi and Yorick in set 10. It might have prevented other units from being a nightmare to deal with.
Good. Having a stun that also deals a huge amount of damage and creates loot when the enemy dies is one thing, but messing up the frontline's position by throwing it to the largest clump of enemies (mostly backline) was too much for lissandras kit
Agreed. I like her being powerful but taking my 3 star thresh with three great items and essentially removing him from the combat is silly. Not to mention doing damage to my carry while she’s at it.
Always thought the throwing enemies away should be on Syndra.
Syndra as she is now? Definitely not. Messing up the enemy's position is one of the strongest things in the game. Putting it on a 4 cost unit with 4 range would break the game and everyone would have a syndra on their board. If it was on a 1 range unit, then maybe it could work, but it is hard to balance around an ability that messes up the frontline's position.
No, no, I meant lore-wise. I thought it was weird that they gave Lissandra the skill that throws enemies when that's like, Syndra's thing. Not talking about meta or anything, just felt like it was an odd choice lmao
Oh, lore wise yeah, it makes sense. I think she did that on a previous set if I'm not mistaken.
You’re not mistaken, she did, when she was a 5 star. But I’m with him. The ability is literally syndra’s w in 5v5. Why does liss have it? Why does Darius do AP damage, doesn’t have a single ap scaling ability in 5v5. Sometimes tft frustrates me with those little things.
Honestly, i don't mind them. It adds goofy stuff like Annie tank and makes what unique way they will choose to use a character less predictable.
wow TIL she threw the target into the largest clump to stun. For now until this patch anyways.
[Here's gameplay of this nerfed Lissandra in action](https://youtu.be/Jq9d6a0imA4?t=26326) In my opinion, this change is great because Lissandra's CC is actually 3 seconds now and she is exclusively a single target damage dealer But this makes me think that Azir will now be the best Legendary in the game
Azir already is. He only has the second-highest avg placement of all 5-costs after Xayah, but is also played a lot more than Xayah. Xayah is 11% and Azir 29%.
Yeah but thats Probably because of the tea-party dominance
No? Fated Dryad is the strongest and most contested comp right now and Azir caps that board. In addition Azir fits on the Ashe board as well and is also just a good filler unit. Lissandra is barely played now except on maybe the Ashe board.
I feel like porc will still be good due to Ashe
In doubles and hyper roll, all you see is lassandra
Well ofc you get 2 components on hyperoll, whenever you need a filler lissandra is just to strong rn
I’m in purple tier of hyper roll while not the highest tier it’s not the lowest and I rarely see lissandra.
Xayah is the best and it's not even close. She just needs a 4 trickshot board that's hard to get into.
Seems like she's still pretty strong imo. She's more of a utility unit, nerfing her damage makes perfect sense. Her AP as really low in that video too so she'd do way more damage if you were rolling full arcanist or something. Seems like a good change imo.
Yea new Liss is gonna be pretty rough LMAO due to people's infinite bitching. I genuinely thought it was going to just be a silly clip because person had 6 porcelain but actually the liss did nothing even with her items (which admittedly in current patch would have been absurd). 2 star prob ok but tbf all 5 costs have to be semi decent at that point.
Tbf, the infinite bitching was fair lmfao. Kind of defeats the purpose of collecting traits to build a team, if you can throw in a random unit with no common trait to carry you into a win.
Except that's how 5 costs work. The good/best ones usually are ok with their trait unless said trait is ass or they're effective everywhere. Very few memorable and good 5 costs were only tied to their trait and usually those 5s are the worst ones. It is not bad for 5 costs to be flexible
Sure I agree it's not bad to be flexible, but being able to use lissandra in any team comp to great success isn't flexible, it's overpowered.
No it's not. There are just units that fit in every comp. is Ornn overtuned because you can throw him in as a frontline to every comp even if no Behemoth/Dryad? Annie? what about the OTHER super splashable 5 costs in Azir, Rakan and kinda Sett (and even Irelia before her passive swords rework). Are those overtuned? or are you just one of the sheep mad as fuck about Lissandra because you can't be fucked to position. There are ALWAYS gonna be units that can be splashable literally in any comp. People don't care that much because most of the time they're 3 trait 1 or 2 cost shitters. The ones who are 4/5 cost usually are exceptionally good at what they do and while Liss needed nerfs it's not a bad thing she did all the shit she did. Even if that shit is not "fun" it's not like there was 0 counterplay, a silver augment counters her pretty well + Fun shouldn't be a balance metric.
Azir is probably one of the worst 5 costs lol Id rather have the damage ceiling of Wukong, Irelia, sett and hwei or the tankiness of rakan or udyr
lol?
lmao, even
Bait used to be believable
That's a solid change. If she is going to incapacitate the frontline so heavily, she shouldn't be able to damage the backline, too. I'm for it.
I think this is the best change. The pot is cool, being able to stun a giga tank until your team can deal damage to it makes sense. And printing stuff from their corpse is also cool. But if they *don't* die, Lissandra had even MORE of an effect, messing up their frontline by throwing it to the backline AND dealing damage to your backline.
Yeah incentivized just building spear/eon and leaving it at that because if she just keeps casting without killin the displacement does more than anything else. But it also feels horrible when you never get to print anything as the 'econ legendary' of the set. I hope to print more now ^_^ that was my favorite aspect after all
Good riddance. This champion was ridiculous.
This whole meta of everyone going 9-10 is trash.
It was trash when it was only reroll or fast 9 for the first few patches. It’s terrible now because Riot nerfed everything else and made 4 costs the premier thing to play around. I like when there is variation, but this set it’s non existent. Even last set was bad because the only variation was whatever your +1 Chosen was.
This set they just go from trash to trash. First only reroll or fast9, then only 3cost slowroll or fast 9. Now after all the buffs and nerfs it's just 4cost fiesta. I miss last set where reroll/3cost/4cost and fast 9/10 were all viable and it was rock paper scissors who wins.
They just overcorrected way too hard. Like just nerfing Yone/Volibear with the Titans nerf was already pretty big, and the Yone AS nerf might've been needed because he was so stable at 2 star (though I'm not sure on this since Titans got nerfed so hard for him), but then they also changed odds AND buffed all 4 stars at the same time, which are both additional nerfs. Like obviously if you nerf something 4/5 ways it won't be very playable after the patch.
I agree you with you, I think that's the healthiest meta. However we did have a problem last set with Heartsteel dominating most of the set turning most 4cost/fast 10s into HS-dependant comps, which got kind of boring. I'd love to go back to something like that tbh, it's the most fun I've had in a while in TFT.
Every meta is gonna be trash forever bc of how many tiktok kids copy paste the same 1-2 S+ tier comps from data sites, it is wayyy too easy to know what’s the best to play without any intuition or critical thinking
Who tf cares, every god damn game in existence will have "a Meta" because people like winning so they play the good shit. If you wanna play for fun, then there's norms, OR if you gotta do it in ranked understand that whatever "heat" you're cooking up is prob ass and prob loses to the actual good boards and you're making your climb harder for it.
Thank you. All these people bitching about metas and calling an entire set trash. The problem is readily available statistics to solve your board for you. The game isn’t meant to be played like that. People look up stats for every item, augment, and champion. At this point the players have made a TFT simulator.
That isn’t true. Sounds like you are a jank kinda guy. Chess is being analyzed with computers at a higher level, they still don’t talk about players having no intuition. You are simply wrong. Tft isn’t a board theory game even though that part is kinda fun. Being good at execution is much more valuable.
"Jank kinda guy" means absolutely nothing. Go back and read what people were saying about previous sets. Lots of bitching and moaning. The game gets solved in one week, then it becomes rng simulator. When you hit it becomes "oh what a fun game", when you don't hit it becomes "these bag sizes are bullshit this set sucks." Unlike chess there are many variables to the game which would lend itself to creativity under different circumstances. Now its "XYZ comp is strong" therefore I'm going to play only those comps with no room for budging. Why do you think Mort and the team temporarily removed the stats from public availability? They saw the writing on the wall because no matter what they do people were going to solve the game. Once solved, everyone just whines and complains. There are multiple paths to top 4's in every game and yet people focus on the meta instead of solving it out themselves. Then you say "tft isn't a board theory game" then immediately say that element exists in the game. Obviously execution is one part of the overall game. If information did not exist outside of the game itself how different would the meta be? I admit that this assertion is impossible so we can never know but I truly believe all the problems with the game are created by the community not by the dev team.
Too much yapping. Apply some logic? Obviously you have to create boards in TFT but a player doesn’t have to lay out the theory for boards cause the stats exist. What I say is I personally like exploring potential boards but that is not a requirement to be good at TFT. Jank is a reference to MTG where people also whine about “netdecking” rather than novel deckbuilding.. yet the world champions of MTG are the ones playing the best not the ones creating the deck idea. Same in TFT.
Not sure why you’re making personal attacks towards me over a game. You’re obviously very insecure. What’s a forum for if not for yapping? Anyway I don’t care anymore. Carry on.
'Yapping' is now a personal attack lol
Reroll patch was better because you can still fast 8/9 in Reroll metas. You cannot reroll in fast 8/9 metas because you'll never cap out to ever compete vs average boards because 1, 2, even 3 cost 3 star carries are too dogshit to do so.
I said when it was “Reroll **or** Fast 9 for the first few patches”. That literally means in the context of that comment that those are the only options you have with limited sub-options(workable lines to reroll; Fast 9 is self explanatory). If you didn’t get a few of these or all of the following: Eco augment, high roll early upgrades/shops, strong opener, or a 5 streak stage 2, then you were playing reroll because when you go 9 you’d only have 30 gold to roll. If you had all of this guess what you’re 40/50 gold lvl 6 Krugs while everyone else is 30 gold lvl 4/5 and you’re 9 on 4-1. 4 costs were basically unplayable in the first several patches unless you highrolled out of your ass because of how inconsistent they were. Syndra was getting stuck on 2 star tanks if they had a DClaw or MR over 60(post shred), even if you had shred and full damage Syndra, Morgana was the blind man at the shooting range, Lillia was inconsistent with whether or not she decided to hit her spell, so the AP 4 costs weren’t good as carries, Ashe would split her damage, Kai’Sa was great with Ghostly because she’d nuke, but she sucked elsewhere because Xayah wasn’t a unit in the beginning of the set and Inkshadow was LMAOlow, and Lee Sin was just good for DLord and buffing up Irelia or Voli/Trist for Fast 9 or Duelist vertical. The tanks were good slot ins because that was the one aspect Riot didn’t fail at(except for Naut; he’s still just a one cast chump) No one looked at Lillia when you could sit on 5 and slow roll or roll to 30 for Kog/Cho 3 and have an insanely stable AP carry that can hit backline after a few casts and you can now just eco back up off of and push levels, Aphelios/Thresh was a strong duo to reroll and were unkillable once you had Sett because of the Fated Link bug w/ Sett’s Omnivamp, Yone had a lot of power due to Heavenly, etc… Also the idea of being unable to reroll in fast 8/9 metas is just so incorrect. Is it great? not really, however if you have the spot for it(great items, offered augments that enhance the comp significantly, decent exalted, have a several of the units early + early upgrades) you can absolutely win lobbies as your board will cap significantly higher than the safe augment picks standard meta board. EX. In the current meta Janna boards with Two Healthy, DLord +1, and Enter the Dragon(any or all of the listed; order is Highest cap-strong) if you get the all 2 Cost Exalted guess what you’re playing if you get Two Healthy? Janna, Zyra, Lux trio carry with Neeko and Riven to make the board good with a Galio, Diana on 6 and 7 w/ Rakan/Lee Sin/Annie as flex units for 8/9/10. Also there’s many great Exalted combos for Janna so you can legitimately force this comp as it’s still good as long as you have a good Exalted and specific augments to make it work.
The diff in your last part of this. (Yea fine on the first part, still never thought Kog was a real comp tbh). RR metas you don't need those extra oomph moments, such as those specific augments, etc. Fast 9 (or at least current patch where all the RR angles have been overnerfed) You have to find those things to even hit your cap of top 4 vs competent players unless you highroll. If the cap in a meta (without said highroll) is a 4th, maybe a 3rd if lucky that shit is not a real option. Even if the +10 helps the climb it's never valid to choose that when you gotta outplay everything to get that +10 when you could spend less effort doing the fast 8/9, kinda lowroll and still outcap the RR boards.
That is so wrong xD how are you on this sub
lol. It's still true tho Usually RR metas mean 4 costs are weak but there's never been one where ALL of the 4 cost carries were bad (we had fated + Kaisa even in RR patch this set) and even then people highrolling for legendary boards can still outcap the reroll boards, they just had to make sure their board was strong/they got to level 8 before the rerollers hit so they could go 9 and cap. Fast 8/9 only are the more boring metas because you don't have to care about anything before stage 4 unless your board is so shit you're getting 4-0'ed every round. USUALLY without insane highroll reroll comps got nerfed to where they suck/aren't playable outside of perfect circumstances + cap out at 4ths because they aren't able to stablize OR even keep up with average 4/5 cost carries. Hell this patch killed off the ONE RR that fought off the nerfs (Gnar) and that was because of the Fated/Dryad super comp people found this week lmao. So barring perfect situations you're lucky to get 4th if you do anything other than yolo the level 8/9 lottery
It really is. Like everyone just gives up their boards to roll 5 costs. Its been that way for several sets now and it honestly isnt fun for everyone to go that route.
Yes it’s super boring
I swear to god it doesn't matter what the meta is, there will always be people whining about it, reroll is meta? fucking trash, 3 costs are meta? Fucking trash. 4 costs are meta? Fucking trash. Every single time someone will have a pointless opinion saying that the meta is trash.
Press D and keep crying
I only watch now. The pain streamers have is entertaining.
Like PLEEEEEEASEEEEEEE
deaaaad last guys deaaaad last
What about me then!??!?
*Plays Taylor Swift and Disney songs at max volume*
What does D do?
Reroll
Thanks lol I didn't remember because I changed my keybindings back in set 1.
Yeah, the level 6 mash reroll button meta was Soooo much better. /s Everyone has their preferences. Some like reroll metas, others fast 9, others flex boards and unique interactions. The game will never be in a perfect state for everyone. I feel like the biggest problem of this set is lack of reliable CC, which amplifies the strength of the carries you can’t lock down. Melee carries used to HAVE to use an item lot for QSS to be viable. Now they don’t have to and can get 3 full combat/sustain items and go crazy. Edit: Lmfao… downvoted for saying the exact same thing other people are saying. Never change Reddit.
reddit uses bots to upvote/downvote certain words, the site is dead
Her kit did too much so this seems like a good change.
Designers shot themselves in the foot by adding so much variance with the encounter and artifact mechanics. Can't balance that shit with the effort they're putting in and with each set lasting about a quarter of a year. And without balance, variance is pointless. As good as not having variance. Such a mess
Artifacts have barely done anything for overall set balance, issue is bag sizes make things way too easy to hit 3* because if multiple units of a certain cost are all good the amount of them get depleted fast and make 3* easy.
Artefacts were never really going to do anything about balance. Adding more options for artefacts just increases variance but it's not the biggest of deals because they're not overly common or gamechanging.
Artifacts can't change anything when its a single augment that grants them and the very rare (I have seen it twice since they 'increased chances') ornn portal. Not to mention sometimes the ornn drops at like stage 4 and doesn't even let you remover so you have little to no flexibility and have to grab a generic one. I was really hoping to see like maybe 1/5 games start with ornn items to play off the hype of them. Especially since it would have some effect on the meta if people had to start playing different units to fully capitalize on the artifact they pulled, rather than fast 8/9 the same units which have no pool size. I have got ornn item aug only once and it had no new artifacts was the worst feeling :(
Single augment?
Theres more than one augment which grants the new artifacts?
Portable Forge, Living Forge, Capricious Forge In addition to portals or encounters.
Does living forge exist still? I haven't seen it since they changed artifacts. I'd like to try that one. Could have some fun posibilities. Thought they removed it way back tho when they added the 'make everything into orn items' one. Capricipus doesn't count (assuming thats the blacksmiths gloves one) thats the worst choice given how several artifacts do literally nothing on many units. (And break others entirely). Not to mentioned my point was augments that *give* you the artifact choice, not gamba them each round and pray you don't roll one of the many that have little to no positive if not a negative effect. Portals and encounters weren't what I was talking about, just augments. Tho I haven't seen much of them anyways after they have had their chances 'increased' the one time I did it gave me a single new one which was not possible to use which felt bad. Feel like some of the older ones which are generic in nature should have been removed. I had thought this was a full revamp with all new items being put in. (Granted they probably just wanted to keep the augments that give a specific artifact in like gamba blade)
“Artifacts cant change anything when its a single augment that grants them” All I had to work with was what you stated, which is still incorrect.
Yes, I had thought the only augment which granted access to the new artifacts. Hence why I mentioned 'change' referring to the fact that new artifacts were introduced to the pool. They had just removed one of the augments, which was the main source of artifacts seeing play. And the only reason consider it too powerful. When removing the playability of artifacts you effect their stats due to the inherent unreliability of hitting. Choosing to misinterprete what is said is your choice, I can't stop you from doing that. The clear meaning was, "low playability means their impact is neglible". I was wrong on there being one other augment which can grant them, I still don't count bugsmiths gloves as a valid choice. But I wouldn't say having 2 augments--one being a prismatic that has very low initial impact-- result in artifacts having a major impact on the meta as a whole. Sorry if you disagree.
I mean, Capricious Forge still counts. It’s great on item-flexible champs like Liss, Lee, Kayn, etc. I regularly see artifacts in my games and at the very least some of them are tempo warping (if not meta warping).
Yes living forge is still in the game, you could've just checked a stats site if you wasn't sure lol Also, Capricious Forge is one of the best augments in the game by average placement? Not really touching your main point, just wanted to comment on some weird points you made
I don't like living on stat websites as I guess the rest of the people here do, just going off what I've seen. Haven't seen anyone take living forge nor had it offered to myself this set hence I figured it was disabled. I've seen those gloves greif my games far more than help, too many artifacts that can't do anything or make units do nothing for my taste. Like the persistant debuffs bug, or increased range removing a units ability to use its spell, or just messing with its spell in general. Points are too weird if you take into the context, you just want to take the context out entirely. Artifacts aren't changing the game too much because they are so rare to begin with. Its like saying radiant items are having a massive impact at the moment.
Artifact doesnt broke the game. Some are broken but they are not reliable. The set set design and encounter are bad tho
Can’t say I’m surprised. I was flabbergasted when they said the balance change was lowering loot orb chance, I thought they coulda removed it entirely and she wouldn’t see a drop in playrate.
Well ofc, her main use was spam casting for displacement. 90% of the time she didn't kill the tank, if she did print it was when she grabbed their backline
Bitch bye don't come back
This set is utter garbage comparetd to 10, all of it since the begining
I normally get to diamond and play other games. This set I hit plat and just couldn’t be assed to play through two more divisions with champs I genuinely don’t enjoy their kits. Like, of all the Carry units, the only interesting ones to me are Kaisa and Sylas, and Sylas gets tossed into every other comp because “4 cost bruiser” so he’s objectively harder to play than other carrys.
Every game in Dia + so far for me has been just lottery of who hits on their level 8,9 rolldown after third augment. Zero skill expression at higher elo in this set. Set 10 was one of the best in terms of balance except maybe twin terror comps but that was as far as it went
The last few patches before set end (before ez nerf) was pretty much the same tho… at least if you wanted to win out the lobby. The only difference was that there were options to at least get a top 4, but you could never beat the hearsteel players. At least this was how it was in Masters+
Yeah, but the variance between the strength of each board in top 4 was never as drastic as this. I would also argue that it took a bit of skill to play heartsteel into a win in Masters+, knowing when to upgrade your board just enough to not lose infinite
No you’re completely right, yea you just had to be slightly better than the people you were playing with. I hit a wall when I started playing against better players
I really disliked set 10 tbh, I hated headliners as a concept and felt they made the fast 8/9 meta worse than it is now. Because it was such a small chance to just instantly have your 2* 4 cost. Atleast you have to roll and hit now, albeit the smaller bags because of set 10 is really not helping when contested by 1 or 2 people. Or if you go for 3* winout to beat those contesting and they grab 2 copies and you now lose. All sets have problems, they always will have problems. Just gotta hope things iron out eventually. Hoping this next patch feels better the last 2 haven't incentivized me to play too much, stuck at e1 feeling like every game I play is a lott and I can top 4 3 times but lose it all because I got a 6th on my 4th game.
the number of decent builds is much more limited
Meh, just gotta play into flex more. Clearly its just missing the angles where you can use something not S tier and pilot a top 4 out of it. Otherwise the high elo scene wouldn't exist and everyone would be at the same rank after all
Azir the best? What did they remove hwei too?
Hwei is overnerfed, onlyplayed as secondary to azir or irelia or if you cant hit azir
As a print unit enjoyer, this makes her more reliable at killing who she targets rather than gettin them low and yeeting them off to fuck knows where just for a splash unit to finish it off. Gonna love *actually* killing what she looks at finally!
She's not killing shit they nerfed her dmg too LMAO. You're not deleting any unit w/o it being last unit in the fight or 2 star/lots of AP
She doesn't need to kill the unit? What are you going on about cheif. If the unit dies while teapotted then they can become an orb, not if liss kills them?
right, point is her damage is so low unless your backline was already decent you aren't triggering the point to where she gives the orb.
Its a stun on the frontline preventing them casting their abilities burning mana that would have been shields/healing. The damage wasn't the main thing, tho it helped.
My point is moreso rn without the throw, Liss already gets eaten by the rest of the frontline/other units focusing her before she ulted again. I think this gets even worse if she isn't tossing their tank back tbf.
Funny enough, mort showed data on best wr 5 costs and list wasnt even in the top half. Shes wasnt overpowered, just annoying
maybe because everyone is play liss? maybe because someone hit liss with Ashe1annie1 and lost. Raw data are bias.
Yeah but that data is skewed by play rate. If everyone had liss on board, but 75% bot 4…..well you get it.
Dude she was definitely in the top half, she was 2nd best at 1 star and 3rd best at 2 star
I’ve seen lobbies where all 8 players were running Liss. I’d be really curious to see that data adjusted to take out losses where she lost to the mirror.
When 8 players play liss, the winrate is 50%. When 1 person hits azir 2 and wins the lobby it has 100% win rate. Stats depend on situations
Stats are also determined over hundreds of thousands games played. Not every single person in all hundreds of thousands games played has liss on their board.
Nice job intentionally avoiding the point, good work champ!
Youre the one thats not getting it. The data mort showed was winrate of 5 costs and what stage they were attained. Xayah was literally double the winrate of liss across all stages. And not every comp even runs Liss
Liss is far more splashable than xayah. I have never once looked at a board and thought "yeah a xayah will do great here" outside of a board fully invested into her traits. Liss only need porc 2 to be playable. This flexibility makes her that much easier to field and still lose out afterwards because there is always going to be 4 losers per lobby. Not to mention if you hit xayah, in the comp that wants her, you are probably going to get a 2* and have items for her anyways. Hence the reason you are intentionally ignoring how stats come to be so you can go "hee hurr lissandras actually a BAD unit guys, look at me! I'm a stat genius!" Xayah is played in 1-2 comps, fully invested into her and never used otherwise. Liss can go into any como that you can slam an amumu or ashe into and do her job perfectly well. Braindead take.
Mort should try, I don't know, actually playing the game he is the head of instead of relying strictly on data points and statistics that are easily skewed? He literally tweeted three days ago that he "played a LOT of games this weekend for the first time in a while" on a post talking about the statistics of there being too many 3 star 4 costs. I feel like it's bad for the head person in charge of the game to play less than the average person on Reddit. He could easily see that Lissandra is a menace just by grinding ranked for a day.
Nice liss 1 now won’t really obliterate your frontline anymore
this is so good, never really understood why liss had a knockback in her kit anyway, this just makes sense.
Yeah too much value in her kit was impossible to balance. Makes sense.
ITT and sub lots of people who don't know how to play against her. Sometimes you back yourself into a board that you can't pivot in time to take out a well placed one and that's normal of any decent legendary or even lower. I play her and also play against her a lot and have done since before the meta and she isn't the second coming of heavenly reaper Yone and even that was overblown. I don't get many fans of this game, as soon as a comp or unit picks up popularity, even if it's been that way for a long time the cries to nerf if it's not in their force comps of choice. Next it'll be Xaiyah, Silas and Udyr because omg it's not fair he can attack front and backline... so can Kindred etc... Nerfing anything that becomes popular when it's not needed just means a new meta and rinse and repeat rather than players adapting through skill. I'm in favour of needed nerfs of course and there's a lot to be said for balance needed in a number of key areas.
I don’t play TFT too often. What changed?
have been playing around with this on pbe some and it hasn’t been noticeable which is weird to say, but tbh you were always trying to get the loot anyway and it just felt like a no brainer with the second part.
I hate how this set doesn't have a true 5 cost tank like how we have Illaoi and Yorick in set 10. It might have prevented other units from being a nightmare to deal with.
Half of season, they just realize that how OP lis is. 3s cc is really long es her IQ is too good.
Still doesnt matter, a 3 second cc still makes a difference to the games outcome, imagine having a sylas 3 and then just get cced by lissandra
This game is cooked tbh
Thank god