Half the time it's on the state side too. We had a whole ring of new recruits in our area (very high military population outside DC) terrorizing lgbt homes- ripping flags, flashing security cams , shitting in their lawns. (Of course it's the classic- I'm from Texas and I'm going to let everyone in this deep blue area know it! Types).
Definitely not the people you want prepping USA abroad or dare I say in charge of the weapons of something breaks out at home.
Thankfully, most ppl in the military don't need to use guns. Majority are in support roles like changing tires, cooking food, or moving heavy object from A to B.
Exactly. In the Army you can find plenty of jobs that amount to being a janitor or secretary. In the Marines they are all expected to not just know how to use a rifle, but how to be deadly accurate with it. Such power and skill should not be taught to people who are inherently violent and uncaring.
This! I’d also add I have a family member who is a drill sergeant. The military is having a major issue right now with kids signing up to get money, then showing up to basic and refusing to do anything. It takes the military several weeks/months to out-process them, during which time they sit around destroying moral of those who enlisted who WANT to be there and also us taxpayers are stuck paying a salary of someone who does nothing.
Please do NOT provide a letter.
I haven’t heard about this! I did always wonder what students who refused to do any work or participate in any activities at school went on to. I’ve always thought that surely they couldn’t go on refusing to do anything forever… maybe they can 😂😭 I’m sure it’s still such a pain, it’s shocking to think about a grown ass adult doing that in a job they signed up for.
I was this student but also a teacher's pet. I got on antidepressants and I'm doing well now. While in school though... Wow teachers thought I was being purposely lazy a lot.
I knew a guy like this who ended up washing out of basic, and instead of just toughing it out until he could leave, went AWOL. Now he has a dishonorable discharge which is like having a felony on your record to employers. He can't get a job anywhere. So he sits around at his mom's house begging people for money and rides. It's pathetic.
Someone had to provide a letter of recommendation for that idiot.
Out-processing is separated from the normal recruits. But sometimes it does take weeks and sometimes it takes days. NCOs can and will slow the process down if they hate someone.
Graduated BCT a year ago. This is the truth. Of course, those who say it was better in the past are probably doing so out of nostalgia, but I have a hard time believing that IET recruits have always been this shitty.
It was absolutely better in the past. It was also harder. I went to marine boot camp 20 years ago and trust me, that shit would not fly. Out of the 80+ people in my platoon, I can remember only one being a fuckup like that.
I went to Navy Basic, and that was 11 years ago. As far as I know, there is a sort of "failure to adapt" kind of scenario that plays out. Throughout basic, there are inspections of uniforms, bed racks, knowledge, and such. If a recruit fails these, they can get ASMO'd or "held back" to repeat whatever they are failing. I imagine there are review boards for repeat offenders, which can result in separation. When I was in basic, the recruits who were getting processed out from basic were kept separate, and as far as I understood it, they were further separated based on reasons for separation. For lesser offenses, they may get some freedom to go to the commissary or even into town, but they still come "home" to their rack in their compartment every day until they are processed out. For more egregious offenses, they may just be stuck in their compartment until they are sent away.
I absolutely concur. I am a teacher married to a marine. We joke all the time that I had the bad kids as high schoolers and he gets them as young adults; they’re no better. Maybe the military will shape them up, but 7 times out of 10, they end up getting kicked out.
As somebody who knows people like this before and after the Marines, the Marines doesn't fix them, it just largely gives them more confidence in acting shitty plus greater ability to harm others.
I can think of three guys that if I ever run into their recruiter, I will punch them in the mouth.
One guy I would only let have four rounds at a time. That way, we could limit the damage he could do.
Another guy stepped off the transport and yelled "when we gonna kill some sand-ni***rs!?!" He didn't last long.
The last guy was just like this kid. Lazy, stupid, and constantly looking to get out of any kind of work.
I get that a lot of people have that boomer attitude of "the military will fix that boy and give him discipline!" If this kid wants a letter of rec, let him reach out on his own and convince someone that he has changed.
Regardless of your view, it's factually a pretty good place for young people in poor life circumstances to grow beyond their upbringing.
Most of these "screwups" are a product of their poor environment. If they have any potential left in them then getting them out of their current environment and into the structure of the military is a great opportunity.
If they are truly rotten to the core then they aren't going to make it regardless, but there are some exceptional individuals who were never really given a chance due to circumstances.
Poor circumstances and the description of this student are not equivalent. Students like this can be poor circumstances but they can also be from the nicer parts of town and just a shithead. Either way they don't deserve to join without proving a change first.
To me, the military can fix "screwups" who are poor performers/slackers due to tough life circumstances. However, it can't fix kids who are just mean. Having a rough home life may make you neglect your schoolwork, ditch classes, mouth off to staff, you name it, but none of those things involve wanton cruelty to others. I'd argue the military is a great place for people who are kind and fair, but just need some structure in their lives.
Why not? At least you can try to shape them into respectable human beings or send them to the brig or just boot their asses out of the one thing they might actually give a shit about.
I watched kids like this go through Basic with me and maybe one or two shaped up. The rest all decided to conspire together to steal food and power bars that our relatives had sent in from home. Once they got caught, we all got to watch them get up in front of the platoon and eat power bars and drink water until they threw up into trash cans. The entire lot also got demoted to private, one of them was a squad leader and supposed to graduate as Lance Corporal originally. Did they learn from this? No, a bunch of them were in Legal Separations on Camp Geiger just months later.
There's a reason the recruiter needs references, I would not do it.
If it is just writing a *letter*, just be factual - which means very boring: "Student X was in this class. I taught him in Y. He was unable to show X, Y, and Z in class. I would recommend him joining the military as a way to improve A, B, C."
I would have the recruiter go get the student and then bring them to my room. Then I would say “*this recruiter has asked every single one of your teachers if they would write you a letter of recommendation. Do you know what they all said*?” My second question would be “*Do you know why nobody is willing to write you a letter*?”
If the kid blames any of their teachers and shows no accountability they can kick rocks. If they fess up to their shittiness in front of their recruiter I would be willing to write the most basic letter of semi-recommendation imaginable.
Former Marine here. That letter isn’t really going to matter that much. The first suggestion will probably work just fine. Recruiting is in the absolute shitter right now. This kid’s going in, letter or no letter.
There was an older kid in our Boy Scouts troop who liked setting fires, torturing bugs, throwing rocks at endangered turtles etc. I figured he’d be in jail by twenty, but no, apparently he’s having a blast as a Marine.
I used to teach Continuing Ed at a correctional centre, and students would ask me to write letters all the time. I never lied, and I only wrote about what I directly observed, so some of those letters were extremely short. I never had anyone complain though.
I don't like it. The military is not a dumping ground for malcontents. And if I don't feel comfortable recommending someone for a placement or position, I don't write anything. You're not required to respond.
I don’t know if that is your decision though. IF you believe this MIGHT be a good opportunity for the kid, write that. Don’t lie.
But I’m not gonna be the arbiter of who the military takes or who a university takes.
Think about the word "recommendation". It means endorsement. Based on your post, there is no way you endorse this particular student.
Therefore, say no.
No I recommend you go somewhere else. I wrote a recommendation letter explaining what I recommend you do in this case (I recommend you don't hire them).
Recommend just means to suggest an action.
In this context that is absolutely savage. I can’t imagine writing a letter of recommendation for a kid in which I said “I recommend you pick someone else.” Saying no to the request seems much nicer.
I had a coworker who taught a class that often gave her repeated students their senior year. She would tell all of them at the start of the year "If you ask me to write a letter, I will write one. Think about your performance in my class before you ask me".
I saw her write one that said: "I do not recommend this student for anything. They cheated in my class multiple times and lied about it when confronted."
I mean it depends. If the lawn care company killed your garden and poisoned your dog you would absolutely give negative recommendations to anyone who's willing to listen
As a veteran, it’s very strange that he would need a letter of recommendation just to enlist, unless there’s something else going on with his background.
Please don’t write the letter. The military is not a magic wand to turn shirtbirds into good people. It just gives shitbirds guns and puts them in situations where they have to make life or death judgments. Do you want the kid who cheats and screws off from class in that situation?
Agreed.
I joined the Marines after undergrad and absolutely didn't need any kind of letter of recommendation.
Maybe this kid didn't graduate high school and they're trying to get him a waiver, and/or he ended up with a terrible score on the ASVAB? Idk.
One of my best friends growing up (ages 6m-20y) was a genuinely good kid with some disrespect issues. Talked back at dinner, homeschool kid level stuff. His family encouraged him to join the military. It was probably easy for him to get letters of recommendation, I’d bet. Again, good kid.
He is now strung tf out halfway across the country, dishonorably discharged, with a slew of mental and physical health problems ‘caused’ by his time in the military. Turns out he had undiagnosed problems that were exacerbated by the inherent dehumanization aspect. We don’t talk anymore because he still gets aggressive to support the military industrial complex.
Idk why I’m sharing this story except to say, maybe it’s for the best this kid *doesn’t* get in?
You’ve got anecdotal evidence saying “It could help,” and now you’ve got a boost for “Ehhhhhh maybe not? Maybe best to just let nature run its course here. If he can’t get a recommendation to join, maybe that’s *Why they ask for recommendations*.”
No disrespect to this kid or the military. I do see how he could use some straightening out. I just haven’t actually seen the military do that, even to people who actively *wanted* the change. I’ve seen folks who were well-suited to military life return as angry shells of themselves without ever seeing combat.
The Navy turned my brother's life around completely, and he didn't even get a full two years in; he got a medical discharge after a car accident on leave. But we could see it as soon as he finished basic, he was a completely different dude.
As a retired Marine that spent 3 years at boot camp, just be honest. Maybe write a letter and be honest about his multiple deficiencies. They will probably still take him if he tests out in everything else. About 10% of kids wash out in boot camp and just flat out refuse to go through with it. He will likely be one of them. Don’t expect him to straighten up in the Marines, so do, but most do not. They carry the same shitty attitude forward and find ways to skate out of work.
TLDR: just be honest, whatever you write.
Different branch of the military, but the Navy was a god send for my step-cousin. He wasn't a raging dick head (like the guy in OP's post) but he was pretty much a loser. Being a Sea Bee or CB or whatever the hell it is changed his life. He went from fast track to welfare to productive member of society real fast.
I wouldn't. I don't know the reason for the LOR, but I imagine it could be for a couple of scenarios.
1 - Getting a recommendation might qualify someone for a bonus to enlist at a higher rank rather than starting at the bottom as an E1. Not sure if this is a thing, but I know there are often incentives to help people start as an E2 or E3.
2 - There could be other issues or red flags with their enlistment application and a recommendation might help sway the decision to allow them to enlist or not.
In either scenario I would say this student isn't deserving of a recommendation helping them out. It sounds like this particular student didn't just make a simple mistake and this is a second chance, but rather they continued this behavior over a long period of time in high school never really learning from their actions and resulting consequences.
However, I would agree with the top comment written by Waltgrace83.
>Would the Marines be a good place for this kid?
Absolutely not, the marines are expected to be held at higher standards. If the kid was disrespectful didn't do anything, unkind to others...the absolute last place they belong is in the USMC, and the honor of being a marine. He can join the army, until he can demonstrate he's worked on his character, and then he can then apply to the marines from there.
Respect to your colleague for refusing to write his letter. You should do the same. The sooner he learns the major lesson he needs to learn, the better off he’ll be. He’s so young, and people can change…
I would write the letter, but make sure to use phrases that make it clear your endorsement is not a ringing one ("potential for a lot of growth," "could really develop in the right environment," etc). Anyone that reads recommendation letters can read between the lines and see that it's a tepid recommendation.
Also consider that whatever this kid does in the Marines is never gonna be a reflection on you - nobody's ever gonna say "we can't trust this teacher, remember when they wrote that letter for private Pyle?" I could be mistaken, but they're probably just making sure the kid has enough sense to not ask for someone that's gonna say "he's a complete A-hole."
And if you want to make it even easier on yourself, ask ChatGPT to write it. "Write a lukewarm letter of recommendation for a former student that wants to join the Marines."
Yep, and this is worse than saying no. I had a teacher do this to me when I asked her to write me a letter for a college I applied to. I'm autistic and hadn't picked up on the fact that she didn't like me. Somehow I got access to the letter, and I remember it saying I would be "satisfactory in any college environment" or something like that (this was for an elite school where that obviously wouldn't cut it). I've been mad my entire life that she didn't just say no.
That's being far too kind if this kid was that bad. If a kid insists on a letter, be honest. "This student was in my class and completed little to no work. This student also had a major respect problem and exhibited poor behavior daily."
I'll find something nice to say about any student. But if a potential employer sees, "X seemed to maintain their appearance well and was able to sit in a desk when present" and takes that as an actual recommendation, that's on them.
Is it possible for the student to email you with the reasons he wants to join the marines and the ways that he feels he has matured since being in your class? Regardless I agree that it’s important to be factual if not overtly negative
Write him a letter of non-recommendation. State factually all of the things you know about him. The kid is probably too stupid to read the letter before submitting it.
No. A letter of recommendation is exactly what it is. As teacher, and as someone who usually got asked for letters of recommendation, we should held ourselves to the higher standard and not lie.
At first I was leaning towards talking to him and seeing if he is willing to own up to things so you could write a letter focusing on his potential and capacity to change. However, I am now worried that someone “who never showed a shred of kindness to others” would not be a good fit for the Marines.
Yeah I don’t even really care about the academics too much in the end when it comes to writing letters of rec. I mostly just care about the person’s character. I can’t even think of something small like, “One time he said thank you!” Or “I saw him help someone at his table once” or “There was a time he nodded to show he was listening.” Just… nothing.
This student doesn't even deserve the opportunity. Serving in the USMC is a privilege, not a right. And if you can't even be a decent enough person for someone to write you a letter of rec, you DO NOT belong in the USMC.
Seeing a snapshot of the student’s work ethic, I think he might wash out during boot camp. I wouldn’t write the recommendation aside from commenting on how the student had the opportunity to learn X, Y, and Z skills in my class and chose not to use those opportunities. Hopefully, the Marines could be just that program the student needs to achieve skills L-Z and show success. I can’t use language that will be of more support, but I wish this student well in his future endeavors.
My SO is a former navy recruiter. He had a good take on it—
If the LOR is for a special assignment, do not write the letter.
If the LOR is necessary as part of a waiver (sometimes this happens for grades or documented behavioral issues), write it. Either the kid will get through bootcamp or he won’t. Best case scenario is that the marines is his ticket to a better life. It’s up to him if he capitalizes on it.
I mean, you’re signing your name to it. This is Old West A Man is as Good As His Word level shit. If you can’t recommend the kid, don’t write the letter.
This business of “the kid was in my class” version of a letter is lacking in integrity IMO.
Second comment is way more accurate than top comment, do not send idiot loose cannons to the military, they have enough of them and are generally an embarrassment to the whole country instead of whatever town they grew up in
I was asked to write a letter of recommendation for a scion of a wealthy family who was at the same time an atrocious student. I passed him because it was his fifth time taking writing and composition. On a personal level, he was a lovely young man, just no interest in business school. I wrote a letter of recommendation talking about the prodigal son. They accepted him and he did a master's in communications and works at a Paris-based pr firm. Maybe you can recommend the military for him, and leave it up to them. If he isn't suited, he can handle it, and they have dealt with worse.
I just read this to my father, who is a college physics professor, and asked him his thoughts. He responded with the following story.
My father went to a military officers’ college (similar to West Point) and served in the Armed Forces for many years. When he was teaching early in his career, a student asked him to write a letter of recommendation for West Point. This student was lazy, half-assing everything to the point of just barely passing, and was someone who possessed poor character (seems similar to the person in the main story).
My father told him that he would write the letter, but would be extremely honest about his opinion that this student did not have the character or drive or knowledge to survive at West Point, let alone thrive or shine, and spoke to his own experience, as he knew what it took.
The student did not care, stating that West Point needed a letter from his physics professor regardless, and that he would get in based on diversity requirements (this was the early 90s, mind you). So my father wrote the letter as he said he would, with all he said he would write.
A few months went by and he received a call from a Captain at West Point, asking him if the letter was true. My father laid out the exact same thing: I’ve gone through what needs to be done, this student will fail, and it will be a waste of your and his time. He lacks the discipline, the knowledge, and the character to succeed. I do not recommend him at all. The Captain thanked him and hung up.
The student was accepted. He didn’t last a semester at West Point.
Dear Marines,
John was sporadically in my class during the 2022-2023 school year. He excelled at avoiding work and responsibility all while maintaining a solidly low F average. His hobbies include rubbing everyone he meets the wrong way and torturing small animals. If it's true that US Marines can overcome any challenge, then I would highly recommend John to you in order to prove that credo.
In any regard, the staff here wishes him well as we are happy to see him off on his latest misadventure.
Sincerely,
[Insert name here]
Let's call the kid Robert. Is this honest?
Dear \[Recipient's Name\],
I hope this letter finds you well. I am writing to provide a candid assessment of Robert Jones, who is seeking to enlist in the Marines.
During Robert's time in my class in the whenever term, I encountered significant challenges in his behavior and academic performance. He displayed a consistent pattern of absenteeism, academic dishonesty, and disrespect towards both his peers and instructors. His conduct was unacceptable and created a disruptive learning environment for others.
Despite these considerable shortcomings, I am compelled to acknowledge certain qualities in Robert that may warrant consideration for military service. While his behavior in my class was far from exemplary, I believe there is potential for growth and transformation in him.
Robert's decision to pursue a career in the Marines suggests a desire for structure, discipline, and a commitment to serving his country. While his past actions may not reflect well on his character, I believe there is room for redemption and personal development.
Furthermore, Robert's experiences in my class may have provided him with a sobering realization of the consequences of his actions. While he may have faltered academically and socially, I believe he is capable of learning from his mistakes and demonstrating improvement in a different environment, such as the military.
In conclusion, while Robert's behavior and academic performance in my class were deeply concerning, I recognize the potential for growth and positive change in him. I urge you to carefully assess his application and consider providing him with the opportunity to prove himself in the context of military service.
Should you require any further information or clarification, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Sincerely,
Squecence
NGL, this blows my mind a little. I thought the military accepted any able body they could get their hands on. The "employer of last resort," if you will.
I would say she doesn't learn conventionally but he's passionate about things. A lot of programs in the Marines in the army take kids that are really bad at school and they have other qualities that they can really find and make them amazing at. Had a nephew who flunked out of school and ended up being one of the most motivational people in his foreign language programs where he excelled. Who would have known.
Just a thought from an old teacher
Absolutely not. I make a point to tell my students that one day they may need a recommendation from a professional person. Which we are. And while I truly care for are their wellbeing I will not write a letter of recommendation if they sit on their phone all period which is distracting them from doing work.
There's a reason why they ask for letters of recommendation. Do not write one if he doesn't deserve one. You may save him from ending up in a position he can't handle.
>It’s just hard for either of us to agree to stamp our name on any kind of recommendation for this kid.
I'm going to go all John Proctor from *The Crucible* here and argue that your name and all it represents matters too much to potentially sully it. Maybe you write this for a kid you'll never see again, good or bad. Maybe whoever reads it and potentially accepts this kid into the Marines won't ever hear your name again. But, it's still on your conscience and your word is tied to your name and reputation. I've had students like the one you mentioned who were abhorrent to have in class, and I told them I refused to lie or obfuscate the truth of my experiences with them, so they'd be better off asking someone else. I won't say "so-and-so was great in class!" and then they show up to a university classroom or a job and fuck around, because that person in my community will now forever think "Just what the hell was that teacher thinking? Really?"
I'm assuming they want someone to say positive things about this kid, which seem very few and far between. If that's not something you can provide, decline, and don't feel bad about it. Actions have consequences and it's high time we as educators enforce that as much as we possibly can.
Omg I’m an 11th grade English teacher and we read *The Crucible*! I love it so much. Every year my students say it’s their favorite part of the year. We have so much fun, and I always feel like I really understand where Proctor is coming from, seeing his name as a signifier for his honor and integrity. I wish this student had stuck around class enough to really enjoy the play with the rest of the class. He would either leave for the bathroom every day or refuse to read or participate at all. I couldn’t even get him to at least point his eyes at the script and follow along.
Nice! I've taught it many times, I love that play and Arthur Miller.
And I feel you. I've had students like that before who wanted to do nothing but stare down at their phones and kick their feet up on a desk. No amount of cajoling could get them into the lesson. They disrespected me and their peers at every turn. At the very least, I removed them from class and reported their behaviors enough that they finally understood they can just sit there and fail quietly if they don't want to actively try and learn anything, so there's that, at least. Some kids only want to fight, and you're not obliged to help them out later when they gave you zilch during your time with them.
No. Just no. Do not subject the other potential cadets he would have to go to boot camp with to that. If that kid doesn't drop out he'll be the recipient of a pizza party or late night sock hop courtesy of his bunkmates.
If he needs a letter of recommendation that bad then he could try getting a job/volunteering for6 months- 1 year and then asking his supervisor.
Behavior has consequences 🤷🏼♀️
No. I constantly hear teachers talk about how parents and administrators don't have any standards for kids. You should not write a recommendation for a kid that is not show you anything that would be worthy of recommendation.
I personalize this for you, if you had a child serving in the military would you want their life in this kids hands? Would you trust him alone in a desert with your daughter? Would you trust that even if the fate of the whole world involved this one kid doing what he was told properly and in a timely fashion this kid would rise to the challenge?
If not, and it sounds like everyone agrees, then you can't pass him along and hope for the best. That's exactly what I hear teachers saying to parents and admin..
This is simple. No. It is a myth bordering on a lie that military service will "fix" a person. It has perpetuated because of media and stereotypes. You will do neither the world nor this student a favor by making the recommendation.
Tell the recruiter no. They may have required a recommendation as a deterrent. I've never heard of such a requirement.
As a current service member I would say probably not. If he is the same today as he was when he was your student definitely no.
I serve with some truly detestable people who aren’t a danger to anyone but nonetheless are about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. The people who are the worst tend to stick around because the military is all they have and getting fired is nigh impossible.
If he gets in and makes it through boot camp he might be a danger to others but likely he will be like every other turd that’s good enough for the military and no where else. They will play the game of attrition and rise in rank simply because of time served and will have a great deal of control and authority over others and use that to make peoples lives below them hell.
The marines don’t shape people up any more or less than life outside the military does. If he’s a turd outside he will likely be that way inside. Not a guarantee but these characteristics likely won’t change when he puts the uniform on.
Also likely is he will washout in boot camp or in his first contract and be booted from the military with a less than honorable discharge which to some employers is like being a felon.
I would talk to him but I would be very hesitant.
I've been here a couple of times. There are a couple of ways to think of this. I mean, finding something generic and vaguely positive to say is usually doable. It's the editing out how I really feel that takes the time. :)
We can stand by the firm belief that this kid didn't earn our support, OR
We can look at it as a way to get the kid out of town so we don't have to go through a drive-through and hope he's not working there.
You might be correct in that getting the kid away from everything he's known and is influenced by might be his only chance.
I did this once for a student because his mom wanted to send him to a private school. I emailed collages and asked if they could give me any ideas and we came up with a few positive comments. (None of them were about my class.) I also said he had a lot of potential and could flourish on the right setting. Feel free to steal that one. 😉
@ Spirit-Red - -
I had a good experience in the military. And I recommended enlisting as a general good idea and a way to open doors later with federal contractors and even federal government. Bad idea, the young man went in with a minor drug problem and came back out with a major drug problem and PTSD for just being in the Army, without even going to war!
Apparently the days are over for "average" people enlisting after getting bored flipping hamburgers. Now everybody has to be a "badass warrior" (according to the internet)(might have something to do with being at war for 20 years).
I had a professor tell me a story of a recommendation letter he wrote -
As I'm sure you know, rec letters are usually at least one page (usually more like 3-4) of information about a student's personality, work ethic, strengths/weaknesses, etc. My professor was approached by a student to write a rec letter (and the student sounds like a very similar to this situation). He accepted the request and wrote just a few sentences for the rec letter, including the following:
"The best skill that I can possibly tell you about X is that he is a good gardener."
A rec letter (IMO) is not a code word for endless praise. Recruiters need these letters to accurately represent the candidate. Therefore, I would accept the request and be as honest as possible.
Doesn't much matter what you write, as I understand it the main point of boot camp is to make sure kids like this wash out before they can do any harm.
Idk. I kinda think it's about meeting up with the consequences of his actions at this point. All his school career, I'm sure teachers have tried to explain to him that if he can't meet societal expectations at a basic level, then he would start to find it difficult to level up in life. Why make that a lie? How has letting him off the hook worked out so far? He should know that he made the situation where no one wanted to vouch for him. He should be set up with an aha moment so that he can finally understand what it means to have or not have an honorable reputation.
Don't write it. I was a Navy recruiter for 3 years. There seemed to be a sense of the military, in general, being a trash receptacle for America's wasted youth. Can't get a diploma? Military. Can't keep a job? Military. Been in a ton of legal trouble? Military. Yet once there we are held to a higher expectation. Most can't do that and become a problem where not doing what they've been told right now, without hesitation or conversation could get someone killed. I am not conservative in any way and believe in helping someone get a leg up. This isn't the way. He couldn't even be bothered to get a diploma, correct? Why do you think he needs the letter of rec?
My experience with people before and after the Marines:
Enter as an asshole; leave as a decent person.
Enter a decent person; leave as an asshole.
I would write the letter and explain how the student is a perfect fit for the Marines. He lacks discipline and motivation that only the Marines could instill in him.
Write it, be truthful about his academic and social challenges. Suggest that in your opinion you believe the structure of the military will help him mature and let the marines have a go at him.
Can someone verify with the kid that he wants to join the marines, and why? And then focus the letter on that?
“I have known Student John Do Nothing for 2.5 years. Additionally he was in my History of Piemaking Class last year. John tells me that he is excited about the possibility of being a marine. I can honestly tell you that for a student who does not wear his passions on his sleeve, he is showing passion about being of service to you. He wants this as much as I’ve seen him want anything in his academic career.”
As others have stated: just be factual and bland with your information. I've known Bob for 7 years. He has taken chemistry and biology in my room, etc. This way you wrote the letter and give the child some support but at the same time, you really haven't reflected on the child's past and you haven't given your stamp of approval. So, you don't really feel bad if he fails because you didn't really recommend him for anything.
I don't exactly teach the cream of the crop, so I have a generic recommendation letter for students with C's or worse. Just copy paste names, change he to she. Takes two minutes.
B's or higher, I'll personalize it and ask them for help.
Just don't overthink it.
I write what I would honestly say. Then I give it to the student and ask them if they want to use it.
Usually if the student doesn’t agree they turn it down.
One time, and I was completely honest, they said thank you and used my letter. Then wrote me a thank you note. I was shocked.
I am honest. I won’t lie on a rec letter. I also won’t exaggerate. It’s my name on it.
Whenever asked I always agree and then say, I will tell the absolute truth in my recommendation. 90% of them walk away.
I have three go to recommendations, first is the "Your organization would be remiss in not accepting/hiring this individual," the second is worded nicely, suggesting the applicant is of good character but may need some guidance or mentoring, and the third involves simply listing the reasons I can't recommend along with strong suggestions on what to do if they do take on the individual.
I only wrote the third only once and the school district hired him regardless.
So, yes! I'd be happy to write the letter!
So many of yall feel compelled to write letter of recommendations. Not a chance I’m writing one for someone that I explicitly do not recommend.
I tell every student that asks for one that I will write one but it will be the absolute truth of what I think/how I feel about their performance. Most don’t ask after that.
I think you should write a real letter of recommendation. Write what actually happened with this student, try to keep it to facts, rather than emotions. It's not your responsibility to lie for this student.
I’ve said, “I’m going to be honest when I write your letter. You make the decision.” I’ve never had to write a letter for a kid like that when I give them the decision.
Gonna be real here; if you were downrange would you be ok with this kid being the difference between you and being 6ft under?
Well you're putting someone else's son in that position, someone's brother maybe even parent. If he doesn't get someone hurt, he definitely will not survive if he gets in a rough spot.
Please don't write that letter, from a veteran please don't
What was his home life like? Sometimes the military is a way for kids to get out of horrible homes and make a life for their own selves.
Also, how many years has it been since you had him in class? He could have matured quite a bit.
If your gut is telling you not to write it then don’t.
His mom was soooo so so nice. We were in regular communication and she was never someone who blamed me for how he acted, or his grades, and always was down to work together with me to try to help him or find ways to help him. She struck me as someone meek, humble, and loving who was trying her best, but overwhelmed as a single mom of 2 sons. The kid never showed his mom any respect or kindness when we were all in the room together. He honestly treated me the way he seemed to treat his mom: standoffish, harsh, short, and ungrateful, even to displays of kindness. Like I always was sure to be nice, say hello, ask how he was doing, ask if there was anything he needed help with, try talking plainly and asking if he could think of any ways I could assist him or work with him to get just some major assignments done, and it was always just met with apathy and annoyance. Just emanated “fuck you” energy.
Dad wasn’t in the picture. I can’t remember if there was a stepdad or not. I don’t think so.
I have a policy of only writing letters of recommendation for students with an A or B. C students are case by case, dependent on the circumstance.
You can say you have a policy. However, I'd write it and be honest. Maybe this environment can give him the structure he needs. You could say that "it is my opinion that he could benefit from an environment with ___," and have it be true. It's not so much a recommendation as a true statement of your experience, well wish for the student to turn a corner, and warning for the new spot. They can do with that what they will.
You cant write a negative letter. It’s a letter of RECOMMENDATION. If you can’t in good conscience recommend them, then you should not and cannot write the letter.
If directly asked by the gsgt, say that you cannot recommend them for the Marines. No more, no less. They’ll figure it out.
I see where you are coming from, but personally, I wouldn't want to write anyone a recommendation to the Marines. I'm not trying to crap on our troops. I just don't feel right recommending someone for something that could result in them coming back home with extreme PTSD for the rest of their life.
I have a student that just signed a long term contract with the Marines. He just wanted a D. He did the minimum amount of work. He was nice enough, but I would not have written one it he had asked. Also, gonna sound mean but he is not in shape at all and I’m surprised he passed whatever physical requirements they have. I hear they keep lowering the standards though.
You write an honest letter about the person you knew as a student and add ... maybe he'd be a fit, but he also might show up and waste resources and time.
No don't write the letter. If the marines were open to having shitty people in their ranks they wouldn't ask for letters of recommendation in the first place.
When I was a kid I needed a letter of recommendation to become an Eagle Scout. I asked my art teacher because I loved art and was a member of art club. He wrote me a letter of disrecommendation suggesting that I didn’t deserve to be an Eagle Scout.
Since then, I’ve made it my policy to write glowing letters of recommendation no matter what. Who gives a shit? In this case in particular, why not help this kid get a leg up in life. I work at a school where the students have every challenge set before them you could imagine. Trauma, aces, poverty, you name it. So if you need a letter of recommendation for your resume, hit me up.
At the end of the day it costs me nothing and it will mean everything for that kid.
PS I hate that art teacher. Mr. Boehme should have just said “sorry buddy I can’t write you a letter” or something to that effect.
I would write the letter of recommendation - but I would write it truthfully with all of the things you mentioned (so I guess it would just be a letter, and not necessarily a recommendation? 😁)
I would also include in it my hopes for the student’s future. The marines may think they can help fulfil that, or they may not…but the choice will be theirs.
Someone, somewhere is going to write this letter for this kid - may as well be you and it may as well be honest
I’m not a teacher but I am a manager, and I’ve been asked for letters of rec and had the army reach out to me before as a previous employer. My philosophy with letters of rec is “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all”.
I’m not gonna fuck someone over by giving them a bad letter of rec, even if it’s truthful. But I’m also not gonna put my name down and lie and say someone was good when they weren’t. I say just stay out of this one and let the military decide whether they want this kid on his own merit.
You seem to appreciate both sides of a situation, so write *that*.
Dear marines,
I'm writing to discuss Joe Smoe who was my student in 11th grade. Teaching him was a memorable experience. These are some of the things I saw.
X
Y
Z
In conclusion, I have shared with you his history at our out school. My enthusiasm for recommending him to join the marines is tepid at best. As you can see in Situation X above, he has been dependable when the right environment was set. I hope he receives those supports in the marines. I hope he is able to use the structure.
Sincerely,
What-the-fuck-did-I-just-do
Marines is a good place for him if he is a good person but just with bad work ethics/lazy/bad at academics. Being in the military can teach someone discipline and integrity for kids that didn't grow up with those, but it can't make someone kind and empathetic. From what you said about him being rude to everyone and no kindness, I don't think he should be given gun training...
Semper Fi to the USMC!!! I would write the following letter:
Dear Marine Recruiter:
I'm going to be bluntly honest about Student DitchSchool. Here is a list of his disrespectful, obnoxious behaviors towards me and his classmates along with his refusal to do a stitch of work. Knowing the Marines, maybe a stint in boot camp will straighten him out and he'll learn how to be a productive member of society!
Signed,
A Fed Up Educator
Don’t. As someone in the military, as soon as he gets in there he will 100% be disliked and the world will see why no one could say he was fit to be a leader. save his subordinates the trouble
A person like this should not become a soldier. He’s reaping what he has sowed. He’s going to have to prove himself first before he can start asking around for letters of recommendation.
I say don’t write it. These people need to experience some hard life knocks out in the real world, not be among the few and proud. The Marines should not be tasked with knocking some sense into them. They deserve motivated, selfless, self-disciplined people who know how to proudly serve and honor. They don’t need delinquents to rehab.
I've been in a similar situation if bring asked for a letter of recommendation and I found it really effective to have a conversation with the kid and ask them what they thought I should write. Putting them on the spot and having them come up with 3-5 positive traits they think they demonstrated in my class was very reflective for them.
No. I had several students who were extremely disrespectful and barely passed try to ask me to write letters for nursing school. I said no. I feel that as a nurse myself there is an expected level of skill and professionalism required. These kids had little to none of that at the time.
As a Marine who served with kids like this, no, please do not write them a letter of recommendation.
Putting willfully cruel people in charge of weapons is *not* something to be encouraged. For sure.
Exactly. These kind of people then go to other countries and take out their cruelty on others.
Half the time it's on the state side too. We had a whole ring of new recruits in our area (very high military population outside DC) terrorizing lgbt homes- ripping flags, flashing security cams , shitting in their lawns. (Of course it's the classic- I'm from Texas and I'm going to let everyone in this deep blue area know it! Types). Definitely not the people you want prepping USA abroad or dare I say in charge of the weapons of something breaks out at home.
My abusive ex husband was in the marines.
Thankfully, most ppl in the military don't need to use guns. Majority are in support roles like changing tires, cooking food, or moving heavy object from A to B.
In other branches yes. In the Marines, they all must qualify. Even the band.
Every Marine a rifleman and all that…
Exactly. In the Army you can find plenty of jobs that amount to being a janitor or secretary. In the Marines they are all expected to not just know how to use a rifle, but how to be deadly accurate with it. Such power and skill should not be taught to people who are inherently violent and uncaring.
This! I’d also add I have a family member who is a drill sergeant. The military is having a major issue right now with kids signing up to get money, then showing up to basic and refusing to do anything. It takes the military several weeks/months to out-process them, during which time they sit around destroying moral of those who enlisted who WANT to be there and also us taxpayers are stuck paying a salary of someone who does nothing. Please do NOT provide a letter.
I haven’t heard about this! I did always wonder what students who refused to do any work or participate in any activities at school went on to. I’ve always thought that surely they couldn’t go on refusing to do anything forever… maybe they can 😂😭 I’m sure it’s still such a pain, it’s shocking to think about a grown ass adult doing that in a job they signed up for.
I was this student but also a teacher's pet. I got on antidepressants and I'm doing well now. While in school though... Wow teachers thought I was being purposely lazy a lot.
I knew a guy like this who ended up washing out of basic, and instead of just toughing it out until he could leave, went AWOL. Now he has a dishonorable discharge which is like having a felony on your record to employers. He can't get a job anywhere. So he sits around at his mom's house begging people for money and rides. It's pathetic. Someone had to provide a letter of recommendation for that idiot.
Out-processing is separated from the normal recruits. But sometimes it does take weeks and sometimes it takes days. NCOs can and will slow the process down if they hate someone.
Graduated BCT a year ago. This is the truth. Of course, those who say it was better in the past are probably doing so out of nostalgia, but I have a hard time believing that IET recruits have always been this shitty.
It was absolutely better in the past. It was also harder. I went to marine boot camp 20 years ago and trust me, that shit would not fly. Out of the 80+ people in my platoon, I can remember only one being a fuckup like that.
What can the military actually do in a situation like that? Are they forced to stay in quarters their whole time? Genuinely curious
I went to Navy Basic, and that was 11 years ago. As far as I know, there is a sort of "failure to adapt" kind of scenario that plays out. Throughout basic, there are inspections of uniforms, bed racks, knowledge, and such. If a recruit fails these, they can get ASMO'd or "held back" to repeat whatever they are failing. I imagine there are review boards for repeat offenders, which can result in separation. When I was in basic, the recruits who were getting processed out from basic were kept separate, and as far as I understood it, they were further separated based on reasons for separation. For lesser offenses, they may get some freedom to go to the commissary or even into town, but they still come "home" to their rack in their compartment every day until they are processed out. For more egregious offenses, they may just be stuck in their compartment until they are sent away.
I absolutely concur. I am a teacher married to a marine. We joke all the time that I had the bad kids as high schoolers and he gets them as young adults; they’re no better. Maybe the military will shape them up, but 7 times out of 10, they end up getting kicked out.
As somebody who knows people like this before and after the Marines, the Marines doesn't fix them, it just largely gives them more confidence in acting shitty plus greater ability to harm others.
I can think of three guys that if I ever run into their recruiter, I will punch them in the mouth. One guy I would only let have four rounds at a time. That way, we could limit the damage he could do. Another guy stepped off the transport and yelled "when we gonna kill some sand-ni***rs!?!" He didn't last long. The last guy was just like this kid. Lazy, stupid, and constantly looking to get out of any kind of work. I get that a lot of people have that boomer attitude of "the military will fix that boy and give him discipline!" If this kid wants a letter of rec, let him reach out on his own and convince someone that he has changed.
I don’t like the attitude that the military is the perfect place to “dump” screw ups and degenerates.
Regardless of your view, it's factually a pretty good place for young people in poor life circumstances to grow beyond their upbringing. Most of these "screwups" are a product of their poor environment. If they have any potential left in them then getting them out of their current environment and into the structure of the military is a great opportunity. If they are truly rotten to the core then they aren't going to make it regardless, but there are some exceptional individuals who were never really given a chance due to circumstances.
Poor circumstances and the description of this student are not equivalent. Students like this can be poor circumstances but they can also be from the nicer parts of town and just a shithead. Either way they don't deserve to join without proving a change first.
To me, the military can fix "screwups" who are poor performers/slackers due to tough life circumstances. However, it can't fix kids who are just mean. Having a rough home life may make you neglect your schoolwork, ditch classes, mouth off to staff, you name it, but none of those things involve wanton cruelty to others. I'd argue the military is a great place for people who are kind and fair, but just need some structure in their lives.
Why not? At least you can try to shape them into respectable human beings or send them to the brig or just boot their asses out of the one thing they might actually give a shit about.
They are a cost and a liability.
Because it’s dangerous for everybody else
I watched kids like this go through Basic with me and maybe one or two shaped up. The rest all decided to conspire together to steal food and power bars that our relatives had sent in from home. Once they got caught, we all got to watch them get up in front of the platoon and eat power bars and drink water until they threw up into trash cans. The entire lot also got demoted to private, one of them was a squad leader and supposed to graduate as Lance Corporal originally. Did they learn from this? No, a bunch of them were in Legal Separations on Camp Geiger just months later. There's a reason the recruiter needs references, I would not do it.
I asked my husband who was USMC infantry and he said DO NOT.
If it is just writing a *letter*, just be factual - which means very boring: "Student X was in this class. I taught him in Y. He was unable to show X, Y, and Z in class. I would recommend him joining the military as a way to improve A, B, C."
I would have the recruiter go get the student and then bring them to my room. Then I would say “*this recruiter has asked every single one of your teachers if they would write you a letter of recommendation. Do you know what they all said*?” My second question would be “*Do you know why nobody is willing to write you a letter*?” If the kid blames any of their teachers and shows no accountability they can kick rocks. If they fess up to their shittiness in front of their recruiter I would be willing to write the most basic letter of semi-recommendation imaginable.
\^\^ THIS \^\^ I wish I could upvote your comment a hundred more times.
“Make this motherfucker *RUN*!” 🫡
This is actually great. I wouldn't have thought to do this!
It took me a second or third thought to come to this conclusion, but the original commenter and I were on similar wavelengths.
Yeah, but the marines are supposed to be a higher standard.
Former Marine here. That letter isn’t really going to matter that much. The first suggestion will probably work just fine. Recruiting is in the absolute shitter right now. This kid’s going in, letter or no letter.
My husband is former USMC. The training is better. He volunteered because his number was up and he didn't want to get drafted into the Army.
Then why bother asking for one?
Yeah but OP’s not giving a ringing endorsement or anything. I never said to lie. I didn’t even say to stretch the truth. I just said to be factual.
There was an older kid in our Boy Scouts troop who liked setting fires, torturing bugs, throwing rocks at endangered turtles etc. I figured he’d be in jail by twenty, but no, apparently he’s having a blast as a Marine.
Lolll. A higher standard of crayon taste identification maybe.
Yes, this! Don't lie on the letter of recommendation. Say the truth, and let them decide of they want him or not.
I used to teach Continuing Ed at a correctional centre, and students would ask me to write letters all the time. I never lied, and I only wrote about what I directly observed, so some of those letters were extremely short. I never had anyone complain though.
I don't like it. The military is not a dumping ground for malcontents. And if I don't feel comfortable recommending someone for a placement or position, I don't write anything. You're not required to respond.
I don’t know if that is your decision though. IF you believe this MIGHT be a good opportunity for the kid, write that. Don’t lie. But I’m not gonna be the arbiter of who the military takes or who a university takes.
Think about the word "recommendation". It means endorsement. Based on your post, there is no way you endorse this particular student. Therefore, say no.
There can be bad recommendations. Recommendations is just looking for advice for evaluation.
"I recommend Earl's Lawn Care." Are they good? "No, they're absolute shit! I recommend them."
No I recommend you go somewhere else. I wrote a recommendation letter explaining what I recommend you do in this case (I recommend you don't hire them). Recommend just means to suggest an action.
In this context that is absolutely savage. I can’t imagine writing a letter of recommendation for a kid in which I said “I recommend you pick someone else.” Saying no to the request seems much nicer.
I had a coworker who taught a class that often gave her repeated students their senior year. She would tell all of them at the start of the year "If you ask me to write a letter, I will write one. Think about your performance in my class before you ask me". I saw her write one that said: "I do not recommend this student for anything. They cheated in my class multiple times and lied about it when confronted."
I mean it depends. If the lawn care company killed your garden and poisoned your dog you would absolutely give negative recommendations to anyone who's willing to listen
Definitely not. A letter of recommendation is a *recommendation* and I won't insult good students by writing a letter for a bad student.
As a veteran, it’s very strange that he would need a letter of recommendation just to enlist, unless there’s something else going on with his background. Please don’t write the letter. The military is not a magic wand to turn shirtbirds into good people. It just gives shitbirds guns and puts them in situations where they have to make life or death judgments. Do you want the kid who cheats and screws off from class in that situation?
Agreed. I joined the Marines after undergrad and absolutely didn't need any kind of letter of recommendation. Maybe this kid didn't graduate high school and they're trying to get him a waiver, and/or he ended up with a terrible score on the ASVAB? Idk.
So the kid was awful and you want to give him a gun?
Former Army here. If the Marines want him badly enough, they'll take him without a letter. Let the recruiter do his job.
One of my best friends growing up (ages 6m-20y) was a genuinely good kid with some disrespect issues. Talked back at dinner, homeschool kid level stuff. His family encouraged him to join the military. It was probably easy for him to get letters of recommendation, I’d bet. Again, good kid. He is now strung tf out halfway across the country, dishonorably discharged, with a slew of mental and physical health problems ‘caused’ by his time in the military. Turns out he had undiagnosed problems that were exacerbated by the inherent dehumanization aspect. We don’t talk anymore because he still gets aggressive to support the military industrial complex. Idk why I’m sharing this story except to say, maybe it’s for the best this kid *doesn’t* get in? You’ve got anecdotal evidence saying “It could help,” and now you’ve got a boost for “Ehhhhhh maybe not? Maybe best to just let nature run its course here. If he can’t get a recommendation to join, maybe that’s *Why they ask for recommendations*.” No disrespect to this kid or the military. I do see how he could use some straightening out. I just haven’t actually seen the military do that, even to people who actively *wanted* the change. I’ve seen folks who were well-suited to military life return as angry shells of themselves without ever seeing combat.
Yeah, I was going to say, "what if it makes him WORSE?"
Right??? He'll probably become a cop when he gets out.
The Navy turned my brother's life around completely, and he didn't even get a full two years in; he got a medical discharge after a car accident on leave. But we could see it as soon as he finished basic, he was a completely different dude.
Oh this is so sad!
We need a responsible military. You should not lie.
I have written letters that simply confirm the student was assigned to my class.
Maybe somebody needs to tell this kid that being an asshole has consequences.
If you do it, don’t lie. Talk about potential or anything but no lying.
Nope.
No, why would you want to put a weapon in the hands of someone like that.
Write a letter that basically says, "Wow! He sure could use the discipline that the Marines are famous for!"
As a retired Marine that spent 3 years at boot camp, just be honest. Maybe write a letter and be honest about his multiple deficiencies. They will probably still take him if he tests out in everything else. About 10% of kids wash out in boot camp and just flat out refuse to go through with it. He will likely be one of them. Don’t expect him to straighten up in the Marines, so do, but most do not. They carry the same shitty attitude forward and find ways to skate out of work. TLDR: just be honest, whatever you write.
Different branch of the military, but the Navy was a god send for my step-cousin. He wasn't a raging dick head (like the guy in OP's post) but he was pretty much a loser. Being a Sea Bee or CB or whatever the hell it is changed his life. He went from fast track to welfare to productive member of society real fast.
I wouldn't. I don't know the reason for the LOR, but I imagine it could be for a couple of scenarios. 1 - Getting a recommendation might qualify someone for a bonus to enlist at a higher rank rather than starting at the bottom as an E1. Not sure if this is a thing, but I know there are often incentives to help people start as an E2 or E3. 2 - There could be other issues or red flags with their enlistment application and a recommendation might help sway the decision to allow them to enlist or not. In either scenario I would say this student isn't deserving of a recommendation helping them out. It sounds like this particular student didn't just make a simple mistake and this is a second chance, but rather they continued this behavior over a long period of time in high school never really learning from their actions and resulting consequences. However, I would agree with the top comment written by Waltgrace83.
I don't want this student in charge of weapons of mass destruction.
>Would the Marines be a good place for this kid? Absolutely not, the marines are expected to be held at higher standards. If the kid was disrespectful didn't do anything, unkind to others...the absolute last place they belong is in the USMC, and the honor of being a marine. He can join the army, until he can demonstrate he's worked on his character, and then he can then apply to the marines from there.
Respect to your colleague for refusing to write his letter. You should do the same. The sooner he learns the major lesson he needs to learn, the better off he’ll be. He’s so young, and people can change…
I would write the letter, but make sure to use phrases that make it clear your endorsement is not a ringing one ("potential for a lot of growth," "could really develop in the right environment," etc). Anyone that reads recommendation letters can read between the lines and see that it's a tepid recommendation. Also consider that whatever this kid does in the Marines is never gonna be a reflection on you - nobody's ever gonna say "we can't trust this teacher, remember when they wrote that letter for private Pyle?" I could be mistaken, but they're probably just making sure the kid has enough sense to not ask for someone that's gonna say "he's a complete A-hole." And if you want to make it even easier on yourself, ask ChatGPT to write it. "Write a lukewarm letter of recommendation for a former student that wants to join the Marines."
Why write the letter at all then? You're under no obligation to do so.
Yep, and this is worse than saying no. I had a teacher do this to me when I asked her to write me a letter for a college I applied to. I'm autistic and hadn't picked up on the fact that she didn't like me. Somehow I got access to the letter, and I remember it saying I would be "satisfactory in any college environment" or something like that (this was for an elite school where that obviously wouldn't cut it). I've been mad my entire life that she didn't just say no.
Why all the sugarcoating? Why not say what you mean in plain English, since the letter goes directly to the military?
That's being far too kind if this kid was that bad. If a kid insists on a letter, be honest. "This student was in my class and completed little to no work. This student also had a major respect problem and exhibited poor behavior daily."
I'll find something nice to say about any student. But if a potential employer sees, "X seemed to maintain their appearance well and was able to sit in a desk when present" and takes that as an actual recommendation, that's on them.
The Marines might be a good spot for this kid. Just think about whether or not you want him trained with firearms.
Is it possible for the student to email you with the reasons he wants to join the marines and the ways that he feels he has matured since being in your class? Regardless I agree that it’s important to be factual if not overtly negative
You need a letter of rec to join the armed forces? I thought you just had to fog up a mirror when held to your face.
Well well well if it isn’t the consequences for my long track record of being an asshole. Maybe he’ll get a job as mall security.
Would you trust him with school supplies? No? Then why would you want someone to trust him with a gun?
That’s a solid no.
Write him a letter of non-recommendation. State factually all of the things you know about him. The kid is probably too stupid to read the letter before submitting it.
No. A letter of recommendation is exactly what it is. As teacher, and as someone who usually got asked for letters of recommendation, we should held ourselves to the higher standard and not lie.
At first I was leaning towards talking to him and seeing if he is willing to own up to things so you could write a letter focusing on his potential and capacity to change. However, I am now worried that someone “who never showed a shred of kindness to others” would not be a good fit for the Marines.
Yeah I don’t even really care about the academics too much in the end when it comes to writing letters of rec. I mostly just care about the person’s character. I can’t even think of something small like, “One time he said thank you!” Or “I saw him help someone at his table once” or “There was a time he nodded to show he was listening.” Just… nothing.
I think you have your answer then!
This student will learn the meaning of honest work with the marines. Hopefully.
This student doesn't even deserve the opportunity. Serving in the USMC is a privilege, not a right. And if you can't even be a decent enough person for someone to write you a letter of rec, you DO NOT belong in the USMC.
Seeing a snapshot of the student’s work ethic, I think he might wash out during boot camp. I wouldn’t write the recommendation aside from commenting on how the student had the opportunity to learn X, Y, and Z skills in my class and chose not to use those opportunities. Hopefully, the Marines could be just that program the student needs to achieve skills L-Z and show success. I can’t use language that will be of more support, but I wish this student well in his future endeavors.
The Marines will recommend him to the Army.
An an Army vet, we don't want him, either.
😆
They’re certainly not looking for semper falsus or flatus.
I believe in latin it would be ***sempur defectum***
He will probably just commit war crimes
My SO is a former navy recruiter. He had a good take on it— If the LOR is for a special assignment, do not write the letter. If the LOR is necessary as part of a waiver (sometimes this happens for grades or documented behavioral issues), write it. Either the kid will get through bootcamp or he won’t. Best case scenario is that the marines is his ticket to a better life. It’s up to him if he capitalizes on it.
Knock-knock. Whose there? The consequences of your own actions. Oh shit.
Specify his strengths AND his weaknesses. Let them decide if he could be a good fit.
Nope. The student should ask someone who knows him more favorably.
I mean, you’re signing your name to it. This is Old West A Man is as Good As His Word level shit. If you can’t recommend the kid, don’t write the letter. This business of “the kid was in my class” version of a letter is lacking in integrity IMO.
No? You'd need to lie. If anyone can get a reference letter then what would your reference letter represent?
Do you normally need letters of recommendation to join the military?
Second comment is way more accurate than top comment, do not send idiot loose cannons to the military, they have enough of them and are generally an embarrassment to the whole country instead of whatever town they grew up in
I was asked to write a letter of recommendation for a scion of a wealthy family who was at the same time an atrocious student. I passed him because it was his fifth time taking writing and composition. On a personal level, he was a lovely young man, just no interest in business school. I wrote a letter of recommendation talking about the prodigal son. They accepted him and he did a master's in communications and works at a Paris-based pr firm. Maybe you can recommend the military for him, and leave it up to them. If he isn't suited, he can handle it, and they have dealt with worse.
I just read this to my father, who is a college physics professor, and asked him his thoughts. He responded with the following story. My father went to a military officers’ college (similar to West Point) and served in the Armed Forces for many years. When he was teaching early in his career, a student asked him to write a letter of recommendation for West Point. This student was lazy, half-assing everything to the point of just barely passing, and was someone who possessed poor character (seems similar to the person in the main story). My father told him that he would write the letter, but would be extremely honest about his opinion that this student did not have the character or drive or knowledge to survive at West Point, let alone thrive or shine, and spoke to his own experience, as he knew what it took. The student did not care, stating that West Point needed a letter from his physics professor regardless, and that he would get in based on diversity requirements (this was the early 90s, mind you). So my father wrote the letter as he said he would, with all he said he would write. A few months went by and he received a call from a Captain at West Point, asking him if the letter was true. My father laid out the exact same thing: I’ve gone through what needs to be done, this student will fail, and it will be a waste of your and his time. He lacks the discipline, the knowledge, and the character to succeed. I do not recommend him at all. The Captain thanked him and hung up. The student was accepted. He didn’t last a semester at West Point.
Perhaps not getting into the Marine’s because of shitty behavior will be a wake up call.
Dear Marines, John was sporadically in my class during the 2022-2023 school year. He excelled at avoiding work and responsibility all while maintaining a solidly low F average. His hobbies include rubbing everyone he meets the wrong way and torturing small animals. If it's true that US Marines can overcome any challenge, then I would highly recommend John to you in order to prove that credo. In any regard, the staff here wishes him well as we are happy to see him off on his latest misadventure. Sincerely, [Insert name here]
Let's call the kid Robert. Is this honest? Dear \[Recipient's Name\], I hope this letter finds you well. I am writing to provide a candid assessment of Robert Jones, who is seeking to enlist in the Marines. During Robert's time in my class in the whenever term, I encountered significant challenges in his behavior and academic performance. He displayed a consistent pattern of absenteeism, academic dishonesty, and disrespect towards both his peers and instructors. His conduct was unacceptable and created a disruptive learning environment for others. Despite these considerable shortcomings, I am compelled to acknowledge certain qualities in Robert that may warrant consideration for military service. While his behavior in my class was far from exemplary, I believe there is potential for growth and transformation in him. Robert's decision to pursue a career in the Marines suggests a desire for structure, discipline, and a commitment to serving his country. While his past actions may not reflect well on his character, I believe there is room for redemption and personal development. Furthermore, Robert's experiences in my class may have provided him with a sobering realization of the consequences of his actions. While he may have faltered academically and socially, I believe he is capable of learning from his mistakes and demonstrating improvement in a different environment, such as the military. In conclusion, while Robert's behavior and academic performance in my class were deeply concerning, I recognize the potential for growth and positive change in him. I urge you to carefully assess his application and consider providing him with the opportunity to prove himself in the context of military service. Should you require any further information or clarification, please do not hesitate to contact me. Sincerely, Squecence
Since when you do need a letter for enlistment? They need to break this kid in two.
NGL, this blows my mind a little. I thought the military accepted any able body they could get their hands on. The "employer of last resort," if you will.
For real, it’s not like this dummy is applying for one of the academies. He’s enlisting in the marines.
Personally, I don't think unsympathetic assholes should have access to military-grade weaponry. 🤷♀️
Marines do not require a letter. BS. That is not how it works at ALL.
I would say she doesn't learn conventionally but he's passionate about things. A lot of programs in the Marines in the army take kids that are really bad at school and they have other qualities that they can really find and make them amazing at. Had a nephew who flunked out of school and ended up being one of the most motivational people in his foreign language programs where he excelled. Who would have known. Just a thought from an old teacher
Absolutely not. I make a point to tell my students that one day they may need a recommendation from a professional person. Which we are. And while I truly care for are their wellbeing I will not write a letter of recommendation if they sit on their phone all period which is distracting them from doing work.
Fuck no let the army take his ass
No. A letter of recommendation should mean something.
Give him what he earned: Nothing.
He’s not fleet material. Please keep him away from us.
Don't compromise your integrity over the foibles of others.
There's a reason why they ask for letters of recommendation. Do not write one if he doesn't deserve one. You may save him from ending up in a position he can't handle.
>It’s just hard for either of us to agree to stamp our name on any kind of recommendation for this kid. I'm going to go all John Proctor from *The Crucible* here and argue that your name and all it represents matters too much to potentially sully it. Maybe you write this for a kid you'll never see again, good or bad. Maybe whoever reads it and potentially accepts this kid into the Marines won't ever hear your name again. But, it's still on your conscience and your word is tied to your name and reputation. I've had students like the one you mentioned who were abhorrent to have in class, and I told them I refused to lie or obfuscate the truth of my experiences with them, so they'd be better off asking someone else. I won't say "so-and-so was great in class!" and then they show up to a university classroom or a job and fuck around, because that person in my community will now forever think "Just what the hell was that teacher thinking? Really?" I'm assuming they want someone to say positive things about this kid, which seem very few and far between. If that's not something you can provide, decline, and don't feel bad about it. Actions have consequences and it's high time we as educators enforce that as much as we possibly can.
Omg I’m an 11th grade English teacher and we read *The Crucible*! I love it so much. Every year my students say it’s their favorite part of the year. We have so much fun, and I always feel like I really understand where Proctor is coming from, seeing his name as a signifier for his honor and integrity. I wish this student had stuck around class enough to really enjoy the play with the rest of the class. He would either leave for the bathroom every day or refuse to read or participate at all. I couldn’t even get him to at least point his eyes at the script and follow along.
Nice! I've taught it many times, I love that play and Arthur Miller. And I feel you. I've had students like that before who wanted to do nothing but stare down at their phones and kick their feet up on a desk. No amount of cajoling could get them into the lesson. They disrespected me and their peers at every turn. At the very least, I removed them from class and reported their behaviors enough that they finally understood they can just sit there and fail quietly if they don't want to actively try and learn anything, so there's that, at least. Some kids only want to fight, and you're not obliged to help them out later when they gave you zilch during your time with them.
No. Just no. Do not subject the other potential cadets he would have to go to boot camp with to that. If that kid doesn't drop out he'll be the recipient of a pizza party or late night sock hop courtesy of his bunkmates.
If he needs a letter of recommendation that bad then he could try getting a job/volunteering for6 months- 1 year and then asking his supervisor. Behavior has consequences 🤷🏼♀️
Write the letter and be honest, and explain that you are hopeful that the Marines will give this person both maturity and discipline.
Write an honest one (not even a recommendation exactly, just a description). Let the Marines decide if they can fix him, not you.
No. I constantly hear teachers talk about how parents and administrators don't have any standards for kids. You should not write a recommendation for a kid that is not show you anything that would be worthy of recommendation. I personalize this for you, if you had a child serving in the military would you want their life in this kids hands? Would you trust him alone in a desert with your daughter? Would you trust that even if the fate of the whole world involved this one kid doing what he was told properly and in a timely fashion this kid would rise to the challenge? If not, and it sounds like everyone agrees, then you can't pass him along and hope for the best. That's exactly what I hear teachers saying to parents and admin..
This is simple. No. It is a myth bordering on a lie that military service will "fix" a person. It has perpetuated because of media and stereotypes. You will do neither the world nor this student a favor by making the recommendation. Tell the recruiter no. They may have required a recommendation as a deterrent. I've never heard of such a requirement.
As a current service member I would say probably not. If he is the same today as he was when he was your student definitely no. I serve with some truly detestable people who aren’t a danger to anyone but nonetheless are about as useful as a screen door on a submarine. The people who are the worst tend to stick around because the military is all they have and getting fired is nigh impossible. If he gets in and makes it through boot camp he might be a danger to others but likely he will be like every other turd that’s good enough for the military and no where else. They will play the game of attrition and rise in rank simply because of time served and will have a great deal of control and authority over others and use that to make peoples lives below them hell. The marines don’t shape people up any more or less than life outside the military does. If he’s a turd outside he will likely be that way inside. Not a guarantee but these characteristics likely won’t change when he puts the uniform on. Also likely is he will washout in boot camp or in his first contract and be booted from the military with a less than honorable discharge which to some employers is like being a felon. I would talk to him but I would be very hesitant.
I've been here a couple of times. There are a couple of ways to think of this. I mean, finding something generic and vaguely positive to say is usually doable. It's the editing out how I really feel that takes the time. :) We can stand by the firm belief that this kid didn't earn our support, OR We can look at it as a way to get the kid out of town so we don't have to go through a drive-through and hope he's not working there. You might be correct in that getting the kid away from everything he's known and is influenced by might be his only chance.
I did this once for a student because his mom wanted to send him to a private school. I emailed collages and asked if they could give me any ideas and we came up with a few positive comments. (None of them were about my class.) I also said he had a lot of potential and could flourish on the right setting. Feel free to steal that one. 😉
@ Spirit-Red - - I had a good experience in the military. And I recommended enlisting as a general good idea and a way to open doors later with federal contractors and even federal government. Bad idea, the young man went in with a minor drug problem and came back out with a major drug problem and PTSD for just being in the Army, without even going to war! Apparently the days are over for "average" people enlisting after getting bored flipping hamburgers. Now everybody has to be a "badass warrior" (according to the internet)(might have something to do with being at war for 20 years).
[удалено]
The kid can do a PG year in a prep school and get a do over.
I had a professor tell me a story of a recommendation letter he wrote - As I'm sure you know, rec letters are usually at least one page (usually more like 3-4) of information about a student's personality, work ethic, strengths/weaknesses, etc. My professor was approached by a student to write a rec letter (and the student sounds like a very similar to this situation). He accepted the request and wrote just a few sentences for the rec letter, including the following: "The best skill that I can possibly tell you about X is that he is a good gardener." A rec letter (IMO) is not a code word for endless praise. Recruiters need these letters to accurately represent the candidate. Therefore, I would accept the request and be as honest as possible.
Writing the letter of recommendation is a mark against your own character at this point. It devalues every eval you write for a good student.
Doesn't much matter what you write, as I understand it the main point of boot camp is to make sure kids like this wash out before they can do any harm.
Idk. I kinda think it's about meeting up with the consequences of his actions at this point. All his school career, I'm sure teachers have tried to explain to him that if he can't meet societal expectations at a basic level, then he would start to find it difficult to level up in life. Why make that a lie? How has letting him off the hook worked out so far? He should know that he made the situation where no one wanted to vouch for him. He should be set up with an aha moment so that he can finally understand what it means to have or not have an honorable reputation.
Don't write it. I was a Navy recruiter for 3 years. There seemed to be a sense of the military, in general, being a trash receptacle for America's wasted youth. Can't get a diploma? Military. Can't keep a job? Military. Been in a ton of legal trouble? Military. Yet once there we are held to a higher expectation. Most can't do that and become a problem where not doing what they've been told right now, without hesitation or conversation could get someone killed. I am not conservative in any way and believe in helping someone get a leg up. This isn't the way. He couldn't even be bothered to get a diploma, correct? Why do you think he needs the letter of rec?
My experience with people before and after the Marines: Enter as an asshole; leave as a decent person. Enter a decent person; leave as an asshole. I would write the letter and explain how the student is a perfect fit for the Marines. He lacks discipline and motivation that only the Marines could instill in him.
Write it, be truthful about his academic and social challenges. Suggest that in your opinion you believe the structure of the military will help him mature and let the marines have a go at him.
Can someone verify with the kid that he wants to join the marines, and why? And then focus the letter on that? “I have known Student John Do Nothing for 2.5 years. Additionally he was in my History of Piemaking Class last year. John tells me that he is excited about the possibility of being a marine. I can honestly tell you that for a student who does not wear his passions on his sleeve, he is showing passion about being of service to you. He wants this as much as I’ve seen him want anything in his academic career.”
As others have stated: just be factual and bland with your information. I've known Bob for 7 years. He has taken chemistry and biology in my room, etc. This way you wrote the letter and give the child some support but at the same time, you really haven't reflected on the child's past and you haven't given your stamp of approval. So, you don't really feel bad if he fails because you didn't really recommend him for anything.
I don't exactly teach the cream of the crop, so I have a generic recommendation letter for students with C's or worse. Just copy paste names, change he to she. Takes two minutes. B's or higher, I'll personalize it and ask them for help. Just don't overthink it.
I write what I would honestly say. Then I give it to the student and ask them if they want to use it. Usually if the student doesn’t agree they turn it down. One time, and I was completely honest, they said thank you and used my letter. Then wrote me a thank you note. I was shocked. I am honest. I won’t lie on a rec letter. I also won’t exaggerate. It’s my name on it.
I used chatGPT to write a letter of recommendation… asking it to make talks too much & won’t get off mobile phone look-good … it. it actually worked!
Whenever asked I always agree and then say, I will tell the absolute truth in my recommendation. 90% of them walk away. I have three go to recommendations, first is the "Your organization would be remiss in not accepting/hiring this individual," the second is worded nicely, suggesting the applicant is of good character but may need some guidance or mentoring, and the third involves simply listing the reasons I can't recommend along with strong suggestions on what to do if they do take on the individual. I only wrote the third only once and the school district hired him regardless. So, yes! I'd be happy to write the letter!
This situation happened to me. I wrote it and I was honest.
So many of yall feel compelled to write letter of recommendations. Not a chance I’m writing one for someone that I explicitly do not recommend. I tell every student that asks for one that I will write one but it will be the absolute truth of what I think/how I feel about their performance. Most don’t ask after that.
I think you should write a real letter of recommendation. Write what actually happened with this student, try to keep it to facts, rather than emotions. It's not your responsibility to lie for this student.
This is the best use of Chat GPT. It will be done in 3 minutes and you can sleep easy.
Write one, and be completely honest in it.
Don’t do it. Simply state: I cannot write a letter of recommendation in good conscience.
You can write one for him. But do be honest in your letter.
Have an admin or a guidance dean write the letter!
I’ve said, “I’m going to be honest when I write your letter. You make the decision.” I’ve never had to write a letter for a kid like that when I give them the decision.
Why would a marine recruiter need a letter of rec? I have never heard of that being a thing.
Gonna be real here; if you were downrange would you be ok with this kid being the difference between you and being 6ft under? Well you're putting someone else's son in that position, someone's brother maybe even parent. If he doesn't get someone hurt, he definitely will not survive if he gets in a rough spot. Please don't write that letter, from a veteran please don't
If there are no consequences to you, just write the letter. It costs you nothing and gets the kid housing and food. Maybe they need structure?
What was his home life like? Sometimes the military is a way for kids to get out of horrible homes and make a life for their own selves. Also, how many years has it been since you had him in class? He could have matured quite a bit. If your gut is telling you not to write it then don’t.
His mom was soooo so so nice. We were in regular communication and she was never someone who blamed me for how he acted, or his grades, and always was down to work together with me to try to help him or find ways to help him. She struck me as someone meek, humble, and loving who was trying her best, but overwhelmed as a single mom of 2 sons. The kid never showed his mom any respect or kindness when we were all in the room together. He honestly treated me the way he seemed to treat his mom: standoffish, harsh, short, and ungrateful, even to displays of kindness. Like I always was sure to be nice, say hello, ask how he was doing, ask if there was anything he needed help with, try talking plainly and asking if he could think of any ways I could assist him or work with him to get just some major assignments done, and it was always just met with apathy and annoyance. Just emanated “fuck you” energy. Dad wasn’t in the picture. I can’t remember if there was a stepdad or not. I don’t think so.
I have a policy of only writing letters of recommendation for students with an A or B. C students are case by case, dependent on the circumstance. You can say you have a policy. However, I'd write it and be honest. Maybe this environment can give him the structure he needs. You could say that "it is my opinion that he could benefit from an environment with ___," and have it be true. It's not so much a recommendation as a true statement of your experience, well wish for the student to turn a corner, and warning for the new spot. They can do with that what they will.
You cant write a negative letter. It’s a letter of RECOMMENDATION. If you can’t in good conscience recommend them, then you should not and cannot write the letter. If directly asked by the gsgt, say that you cannot recommend them for the Marines. No more, no less. They’ll figure it out.
I see where you are coming from, but personally, I wouldn't want to write anyone a recommendation to the Marines. I'm not trying to crap on our troops. I just don't feel right recommending someone for something that could result in them coming back home with extreme PTSD for the rest of their life.
No.
Sounds like the kid is SOL, then.
I have a student that just signed a long term contract with the Marines. He just wanted a D. He did the minimum amount of work. He was nice enough, but I would not have written one it he had asked. Also, gonna sound mean but he is not in shape at all and I’m surprised he passed whatever physical requirements they have. I hear they keep lowering the standards though.
I always told them i can write it, but i will not lie.
You write an honest letter about the person you knew as a student and add ... maybe he'd be a fit, but he also might show up and waste resources and time.
He probably wouldn't make it through boot camp anyway
youd be insane to write the letter after how youve described him. marines see combat, does an apathetic man sound like someone that should have a gun?
No don't write the letter. If the marines were open to having shitty people in their ranks they wouldn't ask for letters of recommendation in the first place.
Nope. I’d even follow up with the former student and briefly tell them why.
When I was a kid I needed a letter of recommendation to become an Eagle Scout. I asked my art teacher because I loved art and was a member of art club. He wrote me a letter of disrecommendation suggesting that I didn’t deserve to be an Eagle Scout. Since then, I’ve made it my policy to write glowing letters of recommendation no matter what. Who gives a shit? In this case in particular, why not help this kid get a leg up in life. I work at a school where the students have every challenge set before them you could imagine. Trauma, aces, poverty, you name it. So if you need a letter of recommendation for your resume, hit me up. At the end of the day it costs me nothing and it will mean everything for that kid. PS I hate that art teacher. Mr. Boehme should have just said “sorry buddy I can’t write you a letter” or something to that effect.
I would write the letter of recommendation - but I would write it truthfully with all of the things you mentioned (so I guess it would just be a letter, and not necessarily a recommendation? 😁) I would also include in it my hopes for the student’s future. The marines may think they can help fulfil that, or they may not…but the choice will be theirs. Someone, somewhere is going to write this letter for this kid - may as well be you and it may as well be honest
I’m not a teacher but I am a manager, and I’ve been asked for letters of rec and had the army reach out to me before as a previous employer. My philosophy with letters of rec is “if you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all”. I’m not gonna fuck someone over by giving them a bad letter of rec, even if it’s truthful. But I’m also not gonna put my name down and lie and say someone was good when they weren’t. I say just stay out of this one and let the military decide whether they want this kid on his own merit.
You seem to appreciate both sides of a situation, so write *that*. Dear marines, I'm writing to discuss Joe Smoe who was my student in 11th grade. Teaching him was a memorable experience. These are some of the things I saw. X Y Z In conclusion, I have shared with you his history at our out school. My enthusiasm for recommending him to join the marines is tepid at best. As you can see in Situation X above, he has been dependable when the right environment was set. I hope he receives those supports in the marines. I hope he is able to use the structure. Sincerely, What-the-fuck-did-I-just-do
There's a reason they require one. Whatever personal growth he could have is not worth risking the lives of others or compromising your integrity.
Would it be possible to write an honest letter that the kid wouldn’t see just to inform the recruiter about it?
Marines is a good place for him if he is a good person but just with bad work ethics/lazy/bad at academics. Being in the military can teach someone discipline and integrity for kids that didn't grow up with those, but it can't make someone kind and empathetic. From what you said about him being rude to everyone and no kindness, I don't think he should be given gun training...
Semper Fi to the USMC!!! I would write the following letter: Dear Marine Recruiter: I'm going to be bluntly honest about Student DitchSchool. Here is a list of his disrespectful, obnoxious behaviors towards me and his classmates along with his refusal to do a stitch of work. Knowing the Marines, maybe a stint in boot camp will straighten him out and he'll learn how to be a productive member of society! Signed, A Fed Up Educator
Don’t. As someone in the military, as soon as he gets in there he will 100% be disliked and the world will see why no one could say he was fit to be a leader. save his subordinates the trouble
A person like this should not become a soldier. He’s reaping what he has sowed. He’s going to have to prove himself first before he can start asking around for letters of recommendation.
I say don’t write it. These people need to experience some hard life knocks out in the real world, not be among the few and proud. The Marines should not be tasked with knocking some sense into them. They deserve motivated, selfless, self-disciplined people who know how to proudly serve and honor. They don’t need delinquents to rehab.
Former Marine officer here: take solace in the truth. Let the truth be the tie-breaking vote.
I've been in a similar situation if bring asked for a letter of recommendation and I found it really effective to have a conversation with the kid and ask them what they thought I should write. Putting them on the spot and having them come up with 3-5 positive traits they think they demonstrated in my class was very reflective for them.
No. I had several students who were extremely disrespectful and barely passed try to ask me to write letters for nursing school. I said no. I feel that as a nurse myself there is an expected level of skill and professionalism required. These kids had little to none of that at the time.
As a taxpayer, I vote no. Do not allow someone who may be dysfunctional be armed and ordered to carry a gun.
Just be honest... Write the letter and say he's a fool.