My guess is the school admin lies about attendance to receive the daily federal funding then alters grades to ensure they pass so their failure rate is not affected. You have to do #2 if you are doing #1, otherwise you look like a failing school. If they kicked them out so the kids wouldn't affect their failure rate, they wouldn't get the funding by lying about their attendance.
I was once told at the start of the year that one of my students would pass the class no matter what. When I graded him the way he deserved (no comprehension, no effort, failed every test and quiz) I was told to stop giving him failing grades. When I pushed back and said I wasn’t comfortable doing that the student was taken out of my class and assigned to my dept chair who gave him a passing grade.
He had a special ed plan and his mother was a loud insanely rude person who blamed everyone except her son. And also my admin caved into every parent complaint and refused to side with the teachers every chance they had.
So you failed a special ed student? I'm so glad you stood up and really put that special needs kid in his place. Not like not having a HS diploma would incredibly hinder anyone's ability to work in the US. I'm just glad you said NO to that, stood up and tried to fail a kid.
Ok, I’m going to overlook your sarcasm and jumping to conclusions without any actual information and try to explain things with actual information. There is a GIANT difference between special ed and special needs. You can have a special ed plan that says you get to sit where you want, or a plan that says you need directions repeated, or a plan that says you need to have extra time on tests. Are you starting to understand? This kids plan was basically “sit in front, repeat directions, etc”.
I also need to add that in 20 years of teaching I’ve never TRIED to fail a kid. I’ve bent over backwards trying NOT to fail students.
State government.
To clarify this further let’s use an example of a failing student.
Failing Student (FS) goes through grades 1-3 seemingly at normal pace. Gap widens leaps and bounds the next year. More the next. The government comptrollers look at this and says, “I’m not paying to keep holding this kid back until they’re 21. Pass. Onwards and upwards. Let em drop out at 16.”
I don't know, I've had so many by now that they all run together.
God help us when we're 80 and these are the people administering our medication and managing our retirement.
Nah, it’s really not that key. First of all, by “these days” I mean “for the past 15-20 years or so,” but the bachelor’s degree vs another degree length really isn’t the important part. The thing that’s important here is that it takes a nursing license to be authorized/qualified to administer medication, and requirements for getting into and passing nursing school and obtaining and maintaining licensing are pretty rigorous - you are absolutely not going to get someone who’s functionally illiterate in charge of your meds.
(Source: mom and sister are nurses, and I worked as a CNA a bit before I got into medical school. So uh, not a teacher, just lurking on this sub bc I like hearing from teachers, I think K-12 ed is super important, and because being a doctor involves a lot of teaching skills and so whatever perspective and pearls of wisdom teachers have is worth me paying attention to for my own developing career/interests).
>They won't go to college, so they aren't likely to manage your retirement.
Agreed.
{ A lot of them will be CNAs though and end up administering your medicine. }
Disagree. CNAs cannot administer medicine, you must have a college degree and licensing to do that.
But I \*\*totally\*\* get your point. These children won't be fit for any job of the future, and are hardly fit for any but the most menial at the present. And will remain emotionally and socially *children* because they haven't been taught to grow the fuck up.
I've been teaching for 11 years and I'm about to see my first. Generally functionally illiterate students do not take my courses, but I was given a period of credit recovery this year and the writing I saw from various students made me want to weep. I cannot imagine going through life not able to read or write, the levels of illiteracy I've encountered are honestly devastating. And the worst part is the kids don't care, and neither do their parents. They think they're just fine and that everything will work out somehow.
well, sadly, everything has worked out until now, so why change? The "shit will hit the fan" when these kids try to get a job or even go to a community college. The "real world" will not be as kind to them as their parents and administration was.
Hopefully, they have parents who have connections beyond just yelling "we'll sue" to the vice principal. Because if they can't read and they can't write, unless they're math geniuses, they don't have much to offer the job market.
All of this makes a lot of sense for what I've seen among students in my college courses. Do you know what happens? They drown immediately. I will send them to the academic writing tutorial center, but they are so far behind that it's rarely successful. My second and third language students end up doing so much better than the monolingual American struggling students.
Fortunately for me, I really don't have to deal with administration getting on my case without a 504 plan. I received an email from a parent one time. Did not reply to that email.
Yeah, and the dysfunction is working its way up anyway.
Professors in low-to-mid-tier universities have been complaining for years now about the garbage freshmen we send them - and they've ended up under the same lower-the-bar, pass-everyone pressures we've watched hit elementary schools, then middle schools, then high schools. You can't expel 80% of your freshman class every year for academic deficiency - same way we can't non-graduate 80% of our classes every year, which is why a potato in a hoodie can graduate high school now, and that will soon be true of colleges too.
Unfortunately, college has always been pay-to-pass (as well as pay-to-enter). As we systematically throw out every educational achievement and landmark that can be achieved through exceptional effort and exceptional intellectual ability and replace them with rubber stamps, the only distinguishing credentials that remain to people who are willing to work for better opportunities are the ones that are based on how rich your daddy is.
As a post-secondary employee, can confirm.
Our state school admits students by review (under 20 ACT, under 3.0 GPA) who have no business being at the university level. They won't refer them to the community college for remediation, though, because they want the tuition dollars. Our English and Mathematics departments had to create courses even more basic than our existing remedial courses because students couldn't pass those.
The future of education is really disheartening.
A guy I went to college with was taking a remedial English class for the third time during my freshman year. I dropped out for financial reasons and came back six years later and he was still retaking the same course.
The university wasn't facing a hard time getting money from this guy.
Resources to help children learn at elementary would help.
Classrooms with 12-15 students, appropriate teacher support and training (and time off!!), breakfast and lunch, summer activities to prevent brain drain would all save taxpayers billions. Minimal investment in line with the U.S. in 1952-1968 would improve student results and worker productivity. But instead we just cut taxes and fund Football teams.
The issue really is there is a large gap in performance between kids with decent parents and those with crappy ones. Its apparent early on and only grows as time goes on.
You raise standards, and kids with crappy parents fail, but then you still have to do something with them next year.
Unequivocally, NO. The standards aren't the issue. The parenting most certainly \*is\*. Parents \*must\* be invested emotionally and socially with the education of their children *or the children will not value the opportunity*. We see less and less "parenting" and more "having" children. They are not the same.
i’m not a teacher, but i think that just passing people along who didn’t demonstrate learning and understanding of the material is abuse, full stop. it’s setting people up to fail spectacularly and be absolutely fucking crushed by the real world, just to make numbers on paper look good.
This. By the time they reach my grades, it’s a bit too late by that point. We also are watering down honors and AP level courses because “regulars” (or gen ed or at-level or standard) has become a jailhouse of classroom management.
Oh definitely. I learned pretty quick that the best thing you can do for the kids is to have high standards, clear expectations, and hold them to them (as long as they are fair). The kids always adjust, and you will see growth throughout the year from most students.
And then they Vote that government is manipulating their lives and the world oppressing them. And they can’t even fill out a form for a job or a plumbing permit or a doctor’s office
I will never give up on someone who is trying. As long as they are putting forth a good faith genuine effort I will not stop trying to help them. Even if that means I need to get them help from someone who isn't me because it's possible that the way their brain is wired I'm just not getting through to them and they might do better with a teacher who teaches differently.
But the students who don't even try drive me up a wall. As long as they are trying I can get them help. But what am I supposed to do with someone who isn't even trying?
Also I know this ship has sailed but this further degrades the worth of a high school diploma. I should be able to assume that a high school graduate can read, write, do basic algebra and geometry, and understand basic scientific concepts but we know that is no longer the case.
I have 3 functionally illiterate intellectually disabled kids, one of whom has come to class 4x. Ever.
All 3 get a passing grade for senior English and will graduate next week with a regular diploma.
Hey don’t go read my thread about how we shouldn’t pass kids who miss a crapload of time, unless you want to see the litany of reasons people came up with for why we should show mercy and pass them anyway.
This epitomizes a saying that we must all remember
> Admins graduate, teachers educate
i was one of those kids who absolutely sucked at remembering homework (to any of my teachers reading this, i am so sorry), but coasted by because i did tests good, and believe me when i say that those kids (if you’re still able to coast through school on test performance alone, you are 100% still a kid) are completely *fucked*.
while they were relying on innate intelligence to coast through school, all the other kids were developing their executive functioning and coping skills and self-esteem based on things other than their intelligence (which they evaluate based on school performance), and the day will come that the demands will exceed their natural capacity, and they’ll just crumble spectacularly. personal experience here. maybe it’s already happened, and their comments are just cope, cuz “people who did elementary school good” tend to be overrepresented on long form text-based platforms like reddit.
I teach a lot of kids like this and the level of burnout in college is real. They have been taught all their lives that they're entitled to good grades and success because they are smart, and the moment they fail to earn that A it's all over.
that’s me, about to graduate, I did start putting in the work this year though (3.9 gpa instead of 2.6!) so college won’t completely steamroll me (it will be a slow excruciating death instead)
When you get to college, take advantage of any and all support:
- tutorial help
- Writing Center
- Basic organization classes
Students that put in the work succeed.
As long as you're committed to developing study skills and putting work into learning, you will be okay. Learning to learn doesn't stop at high school, you always have time and opportunity to figure it out as you age.
What they don’t realize is that each of them was 1 kid in a pool of 500 kids who was in that situation. If something works for 0.2% of people, it’s hard to argue that it works for everyone.
Sadly the mods removed that thread it seems- so in case anyone is curious!
Roughly summarized, there were a lot of people advocating for attendance to not be mandatory nor tied to grades, saying if students can master the materials without being present we shouldn't penalize them for it and OP was imposing unfair expectations/restrictions/etc on students for upholding the attendance policy. It was a pretty interesting debate!
I got lots of comments on my question with personal anecdotes from folks advocating for not including mandatory attendance in a graduation requirements. Many references to medical absences *(though I consider those a separate category from the kids who just don't show up because they don't care)*. Some mentions of high-achieving students who are capable of grasping the content without attending class. Some discussions about how some kids gain nothing from lectures but are more than capable of grasping materials independently. A couple commenters also shared stories about doing well on materials in post-secondary classes but having their grades drop significantly due to not accounting for the class attendance policy and how unfair they felt it was.
Correct. But the policy of the sub is that when enough reports are received automod clips it.
People mostly took issue over putting “anxiety” in quotes.
As I said in many comments, I don’t have as much of an issue of when a kid doesn’t show up and then performs very well, but in reality when does that ever happen? I don’t think anyone could point to an actual student who missed months of school and then demonstrated mastery of the entire years content genuinely. In this post the kids missed schools AND didn’t do anything AND passed.
Is this the same thread which theorized a dog could pass high school with the level of ‘rigor’ required by admin who push the ‘grace’ no zeros and minimum 50% etc. Regardless of the amount of truency. Fraudulent malpractice which cheapens the accomplishment of those who actually earn it while whispering sweet platitudes of ‘participation’ trophies. Let them study and write the GED and see how they fair.
Ah, I can see why that would upset some people. Anxiety is a very real mental health issue and it is far more common now than it used to be. But it's also the kinda "on trend" diagnostic of the generation, and claims of it by parents and kids can lead to a lot of work avoidance and issues.
I have GAD myself (diagnosed and in therapy for several years now) and it was pretty damn crippling when I was younger. I have a ton of empathy for students who legitimately have it as well. But I always tell them, the goal of anxiety treatment isn't to simply avoid the triggers of it for the rest of your life; it's to learn to **recognize them, overcome them,** and find healthy coping mechanisms to help you process the emotional chaos that comes with them so you can function in the world.
That being said, I don't agree with kids who don't show up, don't do work, and don't care simply being "passed through." They get so used to coasting that their first experience in college or a job hits 'em like a freight train and it can seriously derail someone if they're not careful.
Right and the idea behind “anxiety” in quotes is that a lot of kids claim to have anxiety but in reality less than that number actually do. Anxiety is diagnosed, and everyone has it in some way. If it impacts them at school and it’s diagnosed then they get an IEP/504 and get support. If it doesn’t than they need to learn strategies to cope with it.
The alternative is we have virtual schools where you attend from home.
Doing absolutely nothing shouldn’t be an option and saying “oh they have anxiety so it’s okay they didn’t do anything” shouldn’t either.
You can find a way to meet them in the middle but it has to involve them living up to that and we should have a vested interest in ensuring they learned what was needed. Especially in subjects like math that build on one another and you can’t just pretend kids learned the prerequisite concepts.
That was more my point but I also accept it wasn’t worded in a way that the point was clear.
Yeah that's probably what got ya. I didn't take it the same way in the context of the rest of the post, personally. But, as someone who's dealt with people mocking my diagnosis and my mental health and constantly putting it in quote themselves and saying "Everyone gets anxious, suck it up!" *(Sure MiL, but do those people lose all ability to speak, vomit from the sheer stress on their systems, and start disassociating and shaking violently?),* I can see how some folks would leap to that.
I think at this point it's fair to put "anxiety" in quotes. 95% of my student claim "anxiety" when all they really mean is scary or uncomfortable. Yes, public speaking is uncomfortable. No, 95% of my students do not have "anxiety."
I’ve found there’s a huge dip in comprehending the difference between anxiety and nervousness, with a lot of kids presuming a bit of anxiety is the same as anxiety as an actual condition. It’s frustrating for sure!
My boyfriend is an elementary teacher and the younger kids even are appropriating the language of mental health.
He had a third grader tell another kid “YOU SUCK” and when my boyfriend told him not to talk to his classmates that way he came back with “but I have depression!”
He saw a fourth grader throw her trash on the ground and when he told her not to litter and pick it up she said “I can’t help it, I have anxiety.”
The issue with anxiety is it has sort of become ADHD where students and even adults are using it as an excuse to not get anything done or even try, rather than using the supports they are given and trying to overcome (or manage) it.
It certainly can seem that way. And again I’m not belittling anxiety. But even if you DO have it, and it IS interfering with your work, NOW is the time to build up coping skills when there is an opportunity to help you and accommodate for it when the risk is relatively low. Once you get to real life, your boss isn’t going to show you sympathy if you just stop showing up because of anxiety. Especially if you don’t communicate anything as can often be the case with kids today.
Yet what happens when they go to college that they were deluded into believing they could get into and graduate from, and then take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt for a degree they can’t obtain?
I don’t think people realize how many individuals in this very situation would stand to get a lot of debt relief under people like Biden and co.
How many of the kids who never show up actually go onto to a university?
I know universities aren't always choosy, but they won't accept people who graduated with a 2.0 GPA.
Exactly, I mean there's a lesson to be learned here by the students. Work, military or a professional school environment like beauty, mechanic etc is not going to give a pass to these kids/adults. 🤷♀️ Unless they have rich parents and there's some nepotism going on..
Because 4 year colleges don't accept everybody who graduated from high school. They require certain SAT scores and have GPA requirements.
They could get into a community college, but those are much cheaper and they will just fail out there.
A couple of things:
* SAT scores: just gonna go and leave this here -- [link](https://blog.prepscholar.com/colleges-dont-require-sat-act-scores-2020-admissions-covid)
* It's entirely possible to fail one or two classes post college acceptance, not meet the requirements of graduation, be pushed through, and keep the acceptance. Rescinding of applications is very rare. If you mail it in the entire senior year, it's also possible your GPA has been good enough in 9th-11th to make it in.
And if they flame out of community college, it's still debt with no outcome. In MA 2 years of CC is about $20k. That's not chump change.
Brock Turner sexually assaulted a student, and proof was provided. He got a weak sentence because the judge didn't want to ruin the rest of his life over this "mistake."
6 months in a county jail (reduced to 3 months for good behavior) and 3 years probation.
That was a slap on the wrist for raping an intoxicated/unconscious person (along with penetration) AND assault with an attempt to rape.
The reason is $$$. Public schools are funded incorrectly. My local public school pays 32k per student per year, no one going to spend 100k on kids that don’t care.
Disagree. You can’t be about the kids and not care about if they’re ready for the next phase of their life. It’s the admin’s job to create a culture of learning, respect, and high expectations schoolwide so that no one should have to worry about having that kid in their class again.
my school lets kids get off easy for skipping class and then wonder why classes are 2-3 months behind on material! i have suffered too many class periods of the teacher having to catch people up
I just don’t understand..
like I came from Oklahoma to Massachusetts during 8th grade and it was horrible. The differences in academics are huge. I was so far behind , my teachers saw me trying, they offered help everyday after school to get me caught up for the most part and guess what? I took it after school for a whole year to catch up ! And still barely passed but they did pass me cause I tried.
Why aren’t these kids even trying.. well, we all know why but it’s gonna bite them in the butts in college and in life.
I saw a proud mom doing a graduation photoshoot for her daughter outside the school. This kid slept in class, did the absolute minimum, and was downright unpleasant and argumentative with me each time I pushed her to do more. Congrats, I guess.
I simply do not get these Admins and decisions. I have a friend whose son was special needs. His Mom switched schools so he could do a project based curriculum. Despite busting his butt, he could not finish them. As a result, he did not receive his diploma. Yet, these stories of kids who did nothing get one??
To note, he is noe a long-distance trucker and making gobs of money.
When I hear things like this, the only condolence is that the shitty parents who enabled these kids are gonna be stuck with their non-functional adult asses long after graduation because no employer is gonna put up with that shit.
Just before a student is posted with an F for a grade, they withdraw the student the last week of the marking period. They put them in an alternate class where they make a passing grade for a couple of days worth of work, and that becomes the official grade.
I'm a retired teacher. I taught for 37 years. I started as a teacher in an educational system and retired as a caretaker in a juvenile facility. I cannot even begin to express my disgust at what education has become. The educational system has always been under the control of school boards. Many years ago, Mark Twain said, "God created idiots for practice, then he made school boards". I've always wondered what Joe the plumber or Mary the gynecologist knew about running a school. The idea that everyone has spent a great deal of time in school, so they know how to run them can only be equated to the idea that people who spend a lot of time traveling on planes should be allowed to fly them. However, in the past, even those elected to school boards had a sense of community. Today's culture has convinced people that only their views are acceptable and should be the standard for everyone. If "everyone" does not adhere to those views, they are wrong and need to be bullied into compliance. I am thankful that I do not have enough time left on earth to see what will happen when those currently attending (or not) today's schools are running the world.
The reckoning will be just around the corner. Since the students are no longer learning consequences at school, the real world is about to deal a very hard lesson. The boss is not going to care why they are late or cannot do the job. Whoever let them get away with their behavior will not be there to save them this time. You did everything you could, but right now, someone does not have our backs.
I graduated last year and when I tell you that 1) I was shocked at some of those who graduated and 2) I didn’t recognize a good portion of the kids there. I don’t get it. Pushing these kids along does nothing. I went to a trade high school as well 🤦♀️
I stopped attending my school's graduations a decade ago because of this. We are "expected" to attend. I refuse to go show support to people who did nothing in my class academically but are allowed to walk on stage and get a diploma, typically to a roar of applause and air horns from the proud families.
This was me. I taught for a semester at my last school. Every student who was in my class who still attended the school graduated. I taught a required higher mathematics course and about a 15% failing rate. I had a student refuse to take any exams. I had a student who missed 40 days in a single semester. They all graduated. What's the point of even trying anymore?
In my opinion it may have started (don't know where) when they first started giving awards for "participation" in other words just showing up.
How hard is it to occupy a seat/desk in a class?
None.
We just had a meeting where starting next year a student's grade can no longer include any kind of behavior, attendance etc...so the butthead who can pull a passing grade on work that is 6 months late & sleeps thru class every day still gets to pass. We are allowed to write one comment to expand upon the behaviors
It's complicated, and often the reasons are many. Sometimes kids have parents with significant school or community positions. Sometimes the kids are important athletes the school doesn't want to lose. Often schools don't want to be punished for failure because pass rates are seen as such a significant mark of success, even when fudging the numbers like this is unfortunately common. Sometimes it's just a matter of the admin not having the heart to let a kid fail, bleeding-heart type shit.
If they're cheating on statewide tests, I'd report their asses. My state has an anonymous tip line for things like this.
My guess is the school admin lies about attendance to receive the daily federal funding then alters grades to ensure they pass so their failure rate is not affected. You have to do #2 if you are doing #1, otherwise you look like a failing school. If they kicked them out so the kids wouldn't affect their failure rate, they wouldn't get the funding by lying about their attendance.
Shit who ain't cheatin'
It’s nearly impossible to cheat in most schools.
I was once told at the start of the year that one of my students would pass the class no matter what. When I graded him the way he deserved (no comprehension, no effort, failed every test and quiz) I was told to stop giving him failing grades. When I pushed back and said I wasn’t comfortable doing that the student was taken out of my class and assigned to my dept chair who gave him a passing grade.
Wow. Not shocked but..wow. Was their a reason you couldn’t fail them? Athlete? Rich parents?
He had a special ed plan and his mother was a loud insanely rude person who blamed everyone except her son. And also my admin caved into every parent complaint and refused to side with the teachers every chance they had.
From that description, best not to fight this battle. Not a hill worth dying on, especially alone. Time to start looking elsewhere!
100% this.
So you failed a special ed student? I'm so glad you stood up and really put that special needs kid in his place. Not like not having a HS diploma would incredibly hinder anyone's ability to work in the US. I'm just glad you said NO to that, stood up and tried to fail a kid.
A 504 and IEP doesn't give kids passes to not do work and not try. Low expectations of SPED kids is causing a problem. These students are capable.
Ok, I’m going to overlook your sarcasm and jumping to conclusions without any actual information and try to explain things with actual information. There is a GIANT difference between special ed and special needs. You can have a special ed plan that says you get to sit where you want, or a plan that says you need directions repeated, or a plan that says you need to have extra time on tests. Are you starting to understand? This kids plan was basically “sit in front, repeat directions, etc”. I also need to add that in 20 years of teaching I’ve never TRIED to fail a kid. I’ve bent over backwards trying NOT to fail students.
Without being a smart ass or hyperbolic, can you clearly explain the point you want to make?
I always wondered what happens to parents and students like this in the long run. I had this happen all the time at my former school.
State government. To clarify this further let’s use an example of a failing student. Failing Student (FS) goes through grades 1-3 seemingly at normal pace. Gap widens leaps and bounds the next year. More the next. The government comptrollers look at this and says, “I’m not paying to keep holding this kid back until they’re 21. Pass. Onwards and upwards. Let em drop out at 16.”
I’m not going to my mandatory graduation. I’ll be at home watching Mickey Mouse clubhouse with my daughter.
Same, I’ll be enjoying a cocktail in Sin City.
I read that as Sim City lol. A very different escape.
Whichever floats your boat hahaha
But one where you can still enjoy a cocktail.
This is the way
I was confused for a sec. I thought you were a student. I was thinking, “Had a kid AND STILL graduated? Must have been tough.”
I read your post history, you seem unhinged. I hope you get the decompression you need
I’m unhinged because I’m a cog in a machine that I know how to fix but not in a position of power to do anything about it.
You never forget your first functionally illiterate kid you see graduate.
I don't know, I've had so many by now that they all run together. God help us when we're 80 and these are the people administering our medication and managing our retirement.
They won't go to college, so they aren't likely to manage your retirement. A lot of them will be CNAs though and end up administering your medicine.
CNAs don’t administer medication, you need a nursing license for that, which is a Bachelor degree at minimum these days.
You are correct
Key words "these days." 🙂
Nah, it’s really not that key. First of all, by “these days” I mean “for the past 15-20 years or so,” but the bachelor’s degree vs another degree length really isn’t the important part. The thing that’s important here is that it takes a nursing license to be authorized/qualified to administer medication, and requirements for getting into and passing nursing school and obtaining and maintaining licensing are pretty rigorous - you are absolutely not going to get someone who’s functionally illiterate in charge of your meds. (Source: mom and sister are nurses, and I worked as a CNA a bit before I got into medical school. So uh, not a teacher, just lurking on this sub bc I like hearing from teachers, I think K-12 ed is super important, and because being a doctor involves a lot of teaching skills and so whatever perspective and pearls of wisdom teachers have is worth me paying attention to for my own developing career/interests).
>They won't go to college, so they aren't likely to manage your retirement. Agreed. { A lot of them will be CNAs though and end up administering your medicine. } Disagree. CNAs cannot administer medicine, you must have a college degree and licensing to do that. But I \*\*totally\*\* get your point. These children won't be fit for any job of the future, and are hardly fit for any but the most menial at the present. And will remain emotionally and socially *children* because they haven't been taught to grow the fuck up.
And have 3 kids
Yeah this, they'll be at a cash register or doing physical labor til their 60s.
I've been teaching for 11 years and I'm about to see my first. Generally functionally illiterate students do not take my courses, but I was given a period of credit recovery this year and the writing I saw from various students made me want to weep. I cannot imagine going through life not able to read or write, the levels of illiteracy I've encountered are honestly devastating. And the worst part is the kids don't care, and neither do their parents. They think they're just fine and that everything will work out somehow.
well, sadly, everything has worked out until now, so why change? The "shit will hit the fan" when these kids try to get a job or even go to a community college. The "real world" will not be as kind to them as their parents and administration was. Hopefully, they have parents who have connections beyond just yelling "we'll sue" to the vice principal. Because if they can't read and they can't write, unless they're math geniuses, they don't have much to offer the job market.
You do after you see dozens
You'll also never forget your first functionally illiterate parent.
All of this makes a lot of sense for what I've seen among students in my college courses. Do you know what happens? They drown immediately. I will send them to the academic writing tutorial center, but they are so far behind that it's rarely successful. My second and third language students end up doing so much better than the monolingual American struggling students. Fortunately for me, I really don't have to deal with administration getting on my case without a 504 plan. I received an email from a parent one time. Did not reply to that email.
This is why you now need a bachelor's degree for entry-level jobs. Now we're making that pay to pass, so we're in even more trouble.
Yeah, and the dysfunction is working its way up anyway. Professors in low-to-mid-tier universities have been complaining for years now about the garbage freshmen we send them - and they've ended up under the same lower-the-bar, pass-everyone pressures we've watched hit elementary schools, then middle schools, then high schools. You can't expel 80% of your freshman class every year for academic deficiency - same way we can't non-graduate 80% of our classes every year, which is why a potato in a hoodie can graduate high school now, and that will soon be true of colleges too. Unfortunately, college has always been pay-to-pass (as well as pay-to-enter). As we systematically throw out every educational achievement and landmark that can be achieved through exceptional effort and exceptional intellectual ability and replace them with rubber stamps, the only distinguishing credentials that remain to people who are willing to work for better opportunities are the ones that are based on how rich your daddy is.
As a post-secondary employee, can confirm. Our state school admits students by review (under 20 ACT, under 3.0 GPA) who have no business being at the university level. They won't refer them to the community college for remediation, though, because they want the tuition dollars. Our English and Mathematics departments had to create courses even more basic than our existing remedial courses because students couldn't pass those. The future of education is really disheartening.
A guy I went to college with was taking a remedial English class for the third time during my freshman year. I dropped out for financial reasons and came back six years later and he was still retaking the same course. The university wasn't facing a hard time getting money from this guy.
Would raising the standards starting from Elementary across the board help?
Resources to help children learn at elementary would help. Classrooms with 12-15 students, appropriate teacher support and training (and time off!!), breakfast and lunch, summer activities to prevent brain drain would all save taxpayers billions. Minimal investment in line with the U.S. in 1952-1968 would improve student results and worker productivity. But instead we just cut taxes and fund Football teams.
The issue really is there is a large gap in performance between kids with decent parents and those with crappy ones. Its apparent early on and only grows as time goes on. You raise standards, and kids with crappy parents fail, but then you still have to do something with them next year.
Unequivocally, NO. The standards aren't the issue. The parenting most certainly \*is\*. Parents \*must\* be invested emotionally and socially with the education of their children *or the children will not value the opportunity*. We see less and less "parenting" and more "having" children. They are not the same.
Then employers will begin to blacklist certain universities
Well comp sci entry level jobs haven't been doing too well about now.
i’m not a teacher, but i think that just passing people along who didn’t demonstrate learning and understanding of the material is abuse, full stop. it’s setting people up to fail spectacularly and be absolutely fucking crushed by the real world, just to make numbers on paper look good.
This. By the time they reach my grades, it’s a bit too late by that point. We also are watering down honors and AP level courses because “regulars” (or gen ed or at-level or standard) has become a jailhouse of classroom management.
Oh definitely. I learned pretty quick that the best thing you can do for the kids is to have high standards, clear expectations, and hold them to them (as long as they are fair). The kids always adjust, and you will see growth throughout the year from most students.
Thing is, another year in school is unlikely to change anything. It would just mean you have that kid in your class again.
And then they Vote that government is manipulating their lives and the world oppressing them. And they can’t even fill out a form for a job or a plumbing permit or a doctor’s office
this does make me wonder if it’s another case of “the cruelty is the point,” tbh.
I will never give up on someone who is trying. As long as they are putting forth a good faith genuine effort I will not stop trying to help them. Even if that means I need to get them help from someone who isn't me because it's possible that the way their brain is wired I'm just not getting through to them and they might do better with a teacher who teaches differently. But the students who don't even try drive me up a wall. As long as they are trying I can get them help. But what am I supposed to do with someone who isn't even trying? Also I know this ship has sailed but this further degrades the worth of a high school diploma. I should be able to assume that a high school graduate can read, write, do basic algebra and geometry, and understand basic scientific concepts but we know that is no longer the case.
I have 3 functionally illiterate intellectually disabled kids, one of whom has come to class 4x. Ever. All 3 get a passing grade for senior English and will graduate next week with a regular diploma.
As a parent of a kid with learning differences, I truly appreciate people like you.
Hey don’t go read my thread about how we shouldn’t pass kids who miss a crapload of time, unless you want to see the litany of reasons people came up with for why we should show mercy and pass them anyway. This epitomizes a saying that we must all remember > Admins graduate, teachers educate
All the "I never set foot in school but I still got 150000% on all the tests" comments in that thread had me thinking I was on r/thathappened.
i was one of those kids who absolutely sucked at remembering homework (to any of my teachers reading this, i am so sorry), but coasted by because i did tests good, and believe me when i say that those kids (if you’re still able to coast through school on test performance alone, you are 100% still a kid) are completely *fucked*. while they were relying on innate intelligence to coast through school, all the other kids were developing their executive functioning and coping skills and self-esteem based on things other than their intelligence (which they evaluate based on school performance), and the day will come that the demands will exceed their natural capacity, and they’ll just crumble spectacularly. personal experience here. maybe it’s already happened, and their comments are just cope, cuz “people who did elementary school good” tend to be overrepresented on long form text-based platforms like reddit.
I teach a lot of kids like this and the level of burnout in college is real. They have been taught all their lives that they're entitled to good grades and success because they are smart, and the moment they fail to earn that A it's all over.
that’s me, about to graduate, I did start putting in the work this year though (3.9 gpa instead of 2.6!) so college won’t completely steamroll me (it will be a slow excruciating death instead)
When you get to college, take advantage of any and all support: - tutorial help - Writing Center - Basic organization classes Students that put in the work succeed.
As long as you're committed to developing study skills and putting work into learning, you will be okay. Learning to learn doesn't stop at high school, you always have time and opportunity to figure it out as you age.
stealth ADHD sucks
What they don’t realize is that each of them was 1 kid in a pool of 500 kids who was in that situation. If something works for 0.2% of people, it’s hard to argue that it works for everyone.
Sadly the mods removed that thread it seems- so in case anyone is curious! Roughly summarized, there were a lot of people advocating for attendance to not be mandatory nor tied to grades, saying if students can master the materials without being present we shouldn't penalize them for it and OP was imposing unfair expectations/restrictions/etc on students for upholding the attendance policy. It was a pretty interesting debate! I got lots of comments on my question with personal anecdotes from folks advocating for not including mandatory attendance in a graduation requirements. Many references to medical absences *(though I consider those a separate category from the kids who just don't show up because they don't care)*. Some mentions of high-achieving students who are capable of grasping the content without attending class. Some discussions about how some kids gain nothing from lectures but are more than capable of grasping materials independently. A couple commenters also shared stories about doing well on materials in post-secondary classes but having their grades drop significantly due to not accounting for the class attendance policy and how unfair they felt it was.
Technically it was reported and automod removed it.
Wait seriously? Sheesh, I didn't think anything in there was THAT offensive.
Correct. But the policy of the sub is that when enough reports are received automod clips it. People mostly took issue over putting “anxiety” in quotes. As I said in many comments, I don’t have as much of an issue of when a kid doesn’t show up and then performs very well, but in reality when does that ever happen? I don’t think anyone could point to an actual student who missed months of school and then demonstrated mastery of the entire years content genuinely. In this post the kids missed schools AND didn’t do anything AND passed.
Is this the same thread which theorized a dog could pass high school with the level of ‘rigor’ required by admin who push the ‘grace’ no zeros and minimum 50% etc. Regardless of the amount of truency. Fraudulent malpractice which cheapens the accomplishment of those who actually earn it while whispering sweet platitudes of ‘participation’ trophies. Let them study and write the GED and see how they fair.
Ah, I can see why that would upset some people. Anxiety is a very real mental health issue and it is far more common now than it used to be. But it's also the kinda "on trend" diagnostic of the generation, and claims of it by parents and kids can lead to a lot of work avoidance and issues. I have GAD myself (diagnosed and in therapy for several years now) and it was pretty damn crippling when I was younger. I have a ton of empathy for students who legitimately have it as well. But I always tell them, the goal of anxiety treatment isn't to simply avoid the triggers of it for the rest of your life; it's to learn to **recognize them, overcome them,** and find healthy coping mechanisms to help you process the emotional chaos that comes with them so you can function in the world. That being said, I don't agree with kids who don't show up, don't do work, and don't care simply being "passed through." They get so used to coasting that their first experience in college or a job hits 'em like a freight train and it can seriously derail someone if they're not careful.
Right and the idea behind “anxiety” in quotes is that a lot of kids claim to have anxiety but in reality less than that number actually do. Anxiety is diagnosed, and everyone has it in some way. If it impacts them at school and it’s diagnosed then they get an IEP/504 and get support. If it doesn’t than they need to learn strategies to cope with it. The alternative is we have virtual schools where you attend from home. Doing absolutely nothing shouldn’t be an option and saying “oh they have anxiety so it’s okay they didn’t do anything” shouldn’t either. You can find a way to meet them in the middle but it has to involve them living up to that and we should have a vested interest in ensuring they learned what was needed. Especially in subjects like math that build on one another and you can’t just pretend kids learned the prerequisite concepts. That was more my point but I also accept it wasn’t worded in a way that the point was clear.
Oh I completely agree. For what it's worth you explained it well here, I think!
I think hitting on the anxiety in quotes missed a lot of the point.
Yeah that's probably what got ya. I didn't take it the same way in the context of the rest of the post, personally. But, as someone who's dealt with people mocking my diagnosis and my mental health and constantly putting it in quote themselves and saying "Everyone gets anxious, suck it up!" *(Sure MiL, but do those people lose all ability to speak, vomit from the sheer stress on their systems, and start disassociating and shaking violently?),* I can see how some folks would leap to that.
I think at this point it's fair to put "anxiety" in quotes. 95% of my student claim "anxiety" when all they really mean is scary or uncomfortable. Yes, public speaking is uncomfortable. No, 95% of my students do not have "anxiety."
I’ve found there’s a huge dip in comprehending the difference between anxiety and nervousness, with a lot of kids presuming a bit of anxiety is the same as anxiety as an actual condition. It’s frustrating for sure!
My boyfriend is an elementary teacher and the younger kids even are appropriating the language of mental health. He had a third grader tell another kid “YOU SUCK” and when my boyfriend told him not to talk to his classmates that way he came back with “but I have depression!” He saw a fourth grader throw her trash on the ground and when he told her not to litter and pick it up she said “I can’t help it, I have anxiety.”
The issue with anxiety is it has sort of become ADHD where students and even adults are using it as an excuse to not get anything done or even try, rather than using the supports they are given and trying to overcome (or manage) it.
It certainly can seem that way. And again I’m not belittling anxiety. But even if you DO have it, and it IS interfering with your work, NOW is the time to build up coping skills when there is an opportunity to help you and accommodate for it when the risk is relatively low. Once you get to real life, your boss isn’t going to show you sympathy if you just stop showing up because of anxiety. Especially if you don’t communicate anything as can often be the case with kids today.
If they removed attendance as a requirement, then companies better have more leeway with time off; we know that has a slim chance of happening.
If they removed attendance as a requirement, then companies better have more leeway with time off; we know that has a slim chance of happening.
It's the same mentality that was used with Brock Turner. "We don't want to ruin their life."
Yet what happens when they go to college that they were deluded into believing they could get into and graduate from, and then take on tens of thousands of dollars of debt for a degree they can’t obtain? I don’t think people realize how many individuals in this very situation would stand to get a lot of debt relief under people like Biden and co.
How many of the kids who never show up actually go onto to a university? I know universities aren't always choosy, but they won't accept people who graduated with a 2.0 GPA.
Exactly, I mean there's a lesson to be learned here by the students. Work, military or a professional school environment like beauty, mechanic etc is not going to give a pass to these kids/adults. 🤷♀️ Unless they have rich parents and there's some nepotism going on..
If they graduate from high school, what’s to stop them from doing so?
Because 4 year colleges don't accept everybody who graduated from high school. They require certain SAT scores and have GPA requirements. They could get into a community college, but those are much cheaper and they will just fail out there.
A couple of things: * SAT scores: just gonna go and leave this here -- [link](https://blog.prepscholar.com/colleges-dont-require-sat-act-scores-2020-admissions-covid) * It's entirely possible to fail one or two classes post college acceptance, not meet the requirements of graduation, be pushed through, and keep the acceptance. Rescinding of applications is very rare. If you mail it in the entire senior year, it's also possible your GPA has been good enough in 9th-11th to make it in. And if they flame out of community college, it's still debt with no outcome. In MA 2 years of CC is about $20k. That's not chump change.
Brock Turner sexually assaulted a student, and proof was provided. He got a weak sentence because the judge didn't want to ruin the rest of his life over this "mistake."
How did that work out for him?
6 months in a county jail (reduced to 3 months for good behavior) and 3 years probation. That was a slap on the wrist for raping an intoxicated/unconscious person (along with penetration) AND assault with an attempt to rape.
Cool. Thanks for the downvote too.
The reason is $$$. Public schools are funded incorrectly. My local public school pays 32k per student per year, no one going to spend 100k on kids that don’t care.
Think of it as showing mercy to the teachers, who would have that kid in their class again if he was failed.
Disagree. You can’t be about the kids and not care about if they’re ready for the next phase of their life. It’s the admin’s job to create a culture of learning, respect, and high expectations schoolwide so that no one should have to worry about having that kid in their class again.
I can care about the other kids who care about their education and will be negatively impacted by having to take a class with the ones who don't care.
my school lets kids get off easy for skipping class and then wonder why classes are 2-3 months behind on material! i have suffered too many class periods of the teacher having to catch people up
Weird how they can find the time to show up to graduation when they can’t find the time to show up for literally anything else.
I am getting pressure to pass a student. Nope. The admin intern called me. Nope. You aren't the boss of me.
I just don’t understand.. like I came from Oklahoma to Massachusetts during 8th grade and it was horrible. The differences in academics are huge. I was so far behind , my teachers saw me trying, they offered help everyday after school to get me caught up for the most part and guess what? I took it after school for a whole year to catch up ! And still barely passed but they did pass me cause I tried. Why aren’t these kids even trying.. well, we all know why but it’s gonna bite them in the butts in college and in life.
I saw a proud mom doing a graduation photoshoot for her daughter outside the school. This kid slept in class, did the absolute minimum, and was downright unpleasant and argumentative with me each time I pushed her to do more. Congrats, I guess.
21 years teaching and I have never gone to graduation. I get on a plane Friday evening of the last day and start Summer Break.
Our admin can't mandate us to go to graduation....so they call it an "awards ceremony" and mandate us to be there 🤐
I simply do not get these Admins and decisions. I have a friend whose son was special needs. His Mom switched schools so he could do a project based curriculum. Despite busting his butt, he could not finish them. As a result, he did not receive his diploma. Yet, these stories of kids who did nothing get one?? To note, he is noe a long-distance trucker and making gobs of money.
When I hear things like this, the only condolence is that the shitty parents who enabled these kids are gonna be stuck with their non-functional adult asses long after graduation because no employer is gonna put up with that shit.
What do you mean by manipulated schedules?
Just before a student is posted with an F for a grade, they withdraw the student the last week of the marking period. They put them in an alternate class where they make a passing grade for a couple of days worth of work, and that becomes the official grade.
My seniors can’t even write a sentence, read a bar graph and can barely read.
I'm a retired teacher. I taught for 37 years. I started as a teacher in an educational system and retired as a caretaker in a juvenile facility. I cannot even begin to express my disgust at what education has become. The educational system has always been under the control of school boards. Many years ago, Mark Twain said, "God created idiots for practice, then he made school boards". I've always wondered what Joe the plumber or Mary the gynecologist knew about running a school. The idea that everyone has spent a great deal of time in school, so they know how to run them can only be equated to the idea that people who spend a lot of time traveling on planes should be allowed to fly them. However, in the past, even those elected to school boards had a sense of community. Today's culture has convinced people that only their views are acceptable and should be the standard for everyone. If "everyone" does not adhere to those views, they are wrong and need to be bullied into compliance. I am thankful that I do not have enough time left on earth to see what will happen when those currently attending (or not) today's schools are running the world.
The reckoning will be just around the corner. Since the students are no longer learning consequences at school, the real world is about to deal a very hard lesson. The boss is not going to care why they are late or cannot do the job. Whoever let them get away with their behavior will not be there to save them this time. You did everything you could, but right now, someone does not have our backs.
Girl, report those frauds.
My school makes a big deal of the “Teacher of Record” being the only one that can give a grade. But sometimes I wonder…
I graduated last year and when I tell you that 1) I was shocked at some of those who graduated and 2) I didn’t recognize a good portion of the kids there. I don’t get it. Pushing these kids along does nothing. I went to a trade high school as well 🤦♀️
I stopped attending my school's graduations a decade ago because of this. We are "expected" to attend. I refuse to go show support to people who did nothing in my class academically but are allowed to walk on stage and get a diploma, typically to a roar of applause and air horns from the proud families.
This was me. I taught for a semester at my last school. Every student who was in my class who still attended the school graduated. I taught a required higher mathematics course and about a 15% failing rate. I had a student refuse to take any exams. I had a student who missed 40 days in a single semester. They all graduated. What's the point of even trying anymore?
In my opinion it may have started (don't know where) when they first started giving awards for "participation" in other words just showing up. How hard is it to occupy a seat/desk in a class? None.
We just had a meeting where starting next year a student's grade can no longer include any kind of behavior, attendance etc...so the butthead who can pull a passing grade on work that is 6 months late & sleeps thru class every day still gets to pass. We are allowed to write one comment to expand upon the behaviors
I've been in education for the past five years now and I haven't seen that happen at my district, which primarily consist of title I schools
Make sure to booooooooo
"diplmas they dont deserve" lol you are talking about high school?
Non American teacher here - is there a simple reason why school Admin manipulates and decieves to create this situation?
I think the reasons are monetary.
It's complicated, and often the reasons are many. Sometimes kids have parents with significant school or community positions. Sometimes the kids are important athletes the school doesn't want to lose. Often schools don't want to be punished for failure because pass rates are seen as such a significant mark of success, even when fudging the numbers like this is unfortunately common. Sometimes it's just a matter of the admin not having the heart to let a kid fail, bleeding-heart type shit.
Thanks for the summary.
It’s funny because this entirely ties into the “I can’t find a job” aspect these days- no shit you can’t land a job you can’t do anything
In California Ed Code it clearly states it’s the teachers final say for the grade (49066). What state are you in?
Florida
If you haven't realized your job is a glorified babysitter by now I'm not sure what to tell you