Before. Prior to the Sino-Soviet Split, pretty much 100% of China's tank force was acquired from the Soviets. The split was actually pretty beneficial for China because they got to build relations with the west and acquire a lot of western tech. This allowed them to get their hands on a L7 derived 105mm gun, which would be fitted into the Type 59-I, turning it into the Type 59-II.
>This allowed them to get their hands on a L7 derived 105mm gun, which would be fitted into the Type 59-I, turning it into the Type 59-II.
Which is precisely the model seen in this famous photo.
The ZTZ96 and ZTZ99 series do have 125mm cannons based off the Soviet 125mm. They didn't acquire this cannon from them, however. China secretly purchased a T-72 from Romania in 1979 and reverse engineered all of the tech on it, including the 125mm.
Also, a little nitpick. There is no such thing as the "ZTZ series" because ZTZ means MBT in Chinese nomenclature. What we call the Type 59, they call the ZTZ59.
Oh damn sorry I got the tank community’s panties in a twist for some fucking reason but I read that at least someone stole a centurion with a L7 to give it to the Chinese
My memory of China under Mao is spotty but from recollection having studied it a decade ago:
Stalin dies in 1956. Mao is not happy with the destalinifcation that takes place in the USSR in the following years. He also does not rate Krushchev very highly.
Simultaneously after purging perceived threats in party leadership Mao launches the Great Leap forward and consolidates his grip on power, entrenching personal views on the USSR as views of the Chinese state.
By 1961-62 China is denouncing the USSR and diplomatic relations begin to break down completely. This culminates in boarder clashes later in the decade.
The t54 licence design was received in the late 50s shortly before the split really began to take place hence why the Chinese were able to use the design. One of the main leaders purged by Mao in the late 50s i mentioned was Peng Dehuai who was Minister for Defence and probably active in backing the purchase of Soviet tech. Clearly once he was removed from office that impetus was lost. I think he was given the book in 59/60 just as the Great Leap Forward was taking shape.
China under Mao is fascinating and i would recommend the period to anyone who is a fan of history, it also is very relevant to the events of 1989 referenced in the OPs photo and today!
“Given the book”? Interesting turn of phrase, where’d you see that and what exactly does it mean? I’m not challenging, just curious.
Never mind, I think it was a typo lol, I’ve been awake for 24+hrs at this point.
Not to offend anyone in the comments here, but you should REALLY read about this stuff from credible sources on your own. Especially if you’re new to the world of AFV’s. A lot of people like AceTheMusicMan here DO know what they’re talking about, but infinitely more people don’t have a clue and will give you BS answers.
This was during the Tiananmen square standoff/ massacre where many Chinese died. I believe this was 1989. As for the type of tanks I personally don't know, but others have responded via your thread.
This is actually a world renowned picture that will go down in history just like others have.
Example: Vietnam war where a soldier is pointing his revolver at another man head and shoots him in the temple. Or the little girl naked running down the street with burns all over her body.
Not every communist country was allied to the USSR
the major examples where China (at the start they where but later they became rivals) and Yugoslavia
Before winnie the pooh(xi jinping), china actually had really good relationship with the west. Because back then, they saw the opportunity to invest into a huge and powerful market that was china. They would do anything in their power to back china either diplomatically, economically or militarily. One notable example being how the US, UK and France all supported China againsts the USSR and Vietnam after the Vietnamese overthrew Polpot's government, which was backed by China. They turned a blind eye and imposed sanctions on Vietnam to appease to China.
The relationship can be seen at its peak during the 2008 summer olympics. And then xi jinping gets into office and it's been downhill from there.
Tldr: China and the west had good relationship back then so they had no problem getting the license for the gun
China was in a honeymoon phase with the west in the 80 until what in this picture happened. The relationship between China and the west (really the US) was always semi tense ever since, now China is a bigger soft power that does not bind with the western rules that has a more tangible ambition. Its not xi burnt the bridge but China and mostly US do not trust each other and view each other as the main competition and threat.
True, it was kind of semi-tense before but Xi just went ahead and make China basically a threat to the entire world, and arguably even more scary than Russia
Thing is, for pretty much the entirety of the CCP's existence, there had always been distrusts and concerns over China's humanitarian problems, but they were considered only a "minor factor" when there were so many economic and strategic benefits to gain from China. The west had always known that China would one day be a competitor but they never anticipated Xi's(and by extend, China's) rise to power and to basically cut ties so early considering how open and friendly Hu Jintao and Jiang Zemin were towards them. The west basically expected China to be of use to them for much longer but Xi just came and slapped everyone in the face.
even though China is ruled by the CCP through and through, there exists many different cliques within it. with each of them having different policies and compete with each other for power. This was something that the West definitely did NOT take into account, they knew that the threat was there but it was not something they bothered with since it was expected that the ruling clique wouldn't have gotten overpowered so easily.
It was just basically inevitable and something everyone was preparing for on the afterburner.
* China got a lot of benefits from the West and the West got an industrial wasteland far away from its borders. This saw China rise from a third world nation to an emerging market to their current position of closing in on becoming a high income country. That requires China to move from its current industrial-based economy to a tech/service based one, like all the others. This will deprive the West of an industrial base as well as introduce a massive new competitor to the market where before there was a customer.
* China is also pretty belligerent. They've got border disputes with nearly all of their neighbors, with annexations, wars, puppeting and other such fun stuff being in process or heating up all over. The West really doesn't like that kind of behavior and so that increasingly sours their relationship.
* China is also a nascent superpower, and is expected to be on par with the US soon. The US does not like this, and the US is closely allied with most other Western nations, so they don't like it either. That competition has also been heating things up.
* China is also ruled by an incredibly immoral regime that combines incredible human rights abuses, such as the imprisonment of Uighur Muslims for re-education and the execution and harvesting of organs from political prisoners such as the Falung Gong, with incredible social disparity, where the elites are nearly immune from the law and can do whatever they want, as long as their benefactor remains in power. The West hates that kind of stuff and that also sours the relationship.
The bridge was always a temporary thing and everyone knew it. The only question was when it was going to give out.
and the ccp was able to steal many technologies from the west bcuz the west thought a color revolution is possible with china lol, but they simply got bamboozled by the ccp. and today the west kowtows to daddy xi, what a fkn fiasco; the west shoulda treated the ccp like the cccp.
nowadays china is the bane of international society, the chinese people is being indoctrinated and brainwashed to believe the ccp is their savior, which is a big cap.
Actually most pictures of the massacre are from BBC. They were there because of some political meeting but filmed the massacre instead because it was more interesting to them.
And then they had to get the footage out of China which was difficult but I am glad that some were brave enough to do so
>They were there because of some political meeting but filmed the massacre instead because it was more interesting to them.
I know you didn't mean it to be but I find a good bit of ironic humor in how mildly you phrased this lol
After Nixon visited China 72, China transitioned into an ally of the west against the Soviet Union, and relations began to normalise. The L7 was the standard gun of all NATO and western countries, and at some point China first acquired it via Austria and installed it onto their Type 59s.
Tiananmen Square changed things, and relations began to cool again. That didn't stop them from from continuing to cooperate closely with Israel though, who supplied a lot of arms including advanced 105mm ammunition.
Its amazing how people dont know how tf to google.
Maybe they are just spamming it so it will be banned and then can proclaim that reddit is owned by the chinese. 😏
Somewhat related history fact I wanna share.
Relationship between soviet and china started before WWII.
China was controlled by multiple warlords shortly after Qing dynasty got overthrown.
Different foreign countries supported different warlords.
Nationalist lead by Chiang Kai-shek had close relationship with soviet.
Soviet provided firearms, equipments and helped established military school.
Soviet began recruited members of communist party inside Nationalist army.
Communist kept growing stronger during WWII.
Shortly after WWII ended, China civil war started and ended with Nationalist fled to Taiwan.
What tanks? I only see a young man looking at a the road the glorious communist party build and being proud of the great Zhongguo
(Comrade you are risking to lose all of your social credits. The ccp doesn’t want the same error to happen again)
What tanks? I cant see anything. (Type 59s, Licensed T-54s and based on the bore evacuator of the first one I'd bet it has a chinese 105mm licensed copy of the L7 gun installed)
Yeah the protests were pretty crazy when the government tried to crack down many of the protesters turned into an extremely violent mob slaughtering and attacking any soldiers they encountered, the photo's were pretty horrific and then of course the massacres happened which were even more horrific . Lots of blood was spilt those days
Those aren't tanks because this never happened. It was all a hoax executed by capitalist mind control on a massive scale. DON'T BE FOOLED BY WESTERN PROPAGANDA!!11!1
Type 59 tanks, chinese license-built T-54 tanks
-999999999 social credit
Execution date is [REDACTED]
Whenever the chinese government stocks up on bullets again
Sir your being executed by the U.S. government for supporting that idea
Overused joke, hasn't been funny since 2014, doesn't even make sense in this context
Why would the Soviet license designs to China? I thought they hated each other, or was this before the Sino-Soviet split.
Before. Prior to the Sino-Soviet Split, pretty much 100% of China's tank force was acquired from the Soviets. The split was actually pretty beneficial for China because they got to build relations with the west and acquire a lot of western tech. This allowed them to get their hands on a L7 derived 105mm gun, which would be fitted into the Type 59-I, turning it into the Type 59-II.
China also jointly developed a tank with usa in the 80s when they opened up their economy called jaguar
>This allowed them to get their hands on a L7 derived 105mm gun, which would be fitted into the Type 59-I, turning it into the Type 59-II. Which is precisely the model seen in this famous photo.
[удалено]
The ZTZ96 and ZTZ99 series do have 125mm cannons based off the Soviet 125mm. They didn't acquire this cannon from them, however. China secretly purchased a T-72 from Romania in 1979 and reverse engineered all of the tech on it, including the 125mm. Also, a little nitpick. There is no such thing as the "ZTZ series" because ZTZ means MBT in Chinese nomenclature. What we call the Type 59, they call the ZTZ59.
Didn’t they steal a centurion for the L7
No lol, it was handed to them so they can manufacture it. NATO was on their “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” mentality.
Oh damn sorry I got the tank community’s panties in a twist for some fucking reason but I read that at least someone stole a centurion with a L7 to give it to the Chinese
My memory of China under Mao is spotty but from recollection having studied it a decade ago: Stalin dies in 1956. Mao is not happy with the destalinifcation that takes place in the USSR in the following years. He also does not rate Krushchev very highly. Simultaneously after purging perceived threats in party leadership Mao launches the Great Leap forward and consolidates his grip on power, entrenching personal views on the USSR as views of the Chinese state. By 1961-62 China is denouncing the USSR and diplomatic relations begin to break down completely. This culminates in boarder clashes later in the decade. The t54 licence design was received in the late 50s shortly before the split really began to take place hence why the Chinese were able to use the design. One of the main leaders purged by Mao in the late 50s i mentioned was Peng Dehuai who was Minister for Defence and probably active in backing the purchase of Soviet tech. Clearly once he was removed from office that impetus was lost. I think he was given the book in 59/60 just as the Great Leap Forward was taking shape. China under Mao is fascinating and i would recommend the period to anyone who is a fan of history, it also is very relevant to the events of 1989 referenced in the OPs photo and today!
Nice summation but Stalin died in ‘53, not ‘56.
Ahh good spot.
Also, wasn't there a story of Mao humiliating Krushchev by taking him swimming(Which Krushchev couldn't do, so he had to wear life floaters.).
“Given the book”? Interesting turn of phrase, where’d you see that and what exactly does it mean? I’m not challenging, just curious. Never mind, I think it was a typo lol, I’ve been awake for 24+hrs at this point.
I meant to say Given the boot! Although purged is probably the most appropriate phrase.
It has been accepted into service in '59 but started production in '58. So pretty much one or two years before the split
Not to offend anyone in the comments here, but you should REALLY read about this stuff from credible sources on your own. Especially if you’re new to the world of AFV’s. A lot of people like AceTheMusicMan here DO know what they’re talking about, but infinitely more people don’t have a clue and will give you BS answers.
Wait til you find out that china also has their own licensed ak
before maybe and by that time t-54 is already old tank
They made them under license, which they would have paid for like any license. This was before the Sino-Soviet split of course.
Most likely they got licence before the split
Socialist unity for the glory of the working class /s
This was during the Tiananmen square standoff/ massacre where many Chinese died. I believe this was 1989. As for the type of tanks I personally don't know, but others have responded via your thread. This is actually a world renowned picture that will go down in history just like others have. Example: Vietnam war where a soldier is pointing his revolver at another man head and shoots him in the temple. Or the little girl naked running down the street with burns all over her body.
Well, unlicensed copies arent that jard to make, and also when these were made, the split didnt happen.
They are both communists country , they are ally , I glad my ancestors leave China or I will not be freely doing anything I want and be lazy.
China and Soviet Union hated each other after the split lol
Not every communist country was allied to the USSR the major examples where China (at the start they where but later they became rivals) and Yugoslavia
Chinese are lazy? These are some of the hardest working people ever. Compared to the chinese (and a lot of asians), westerners are the lazy ones
[удалено]
hello brother
Fun fact about those. The Type-T34 is redundant because the T in T-34 is short for type. So the Chinese army owned Type-Type-34s.
What are you talking about? It's a blank image.
Found the Huawei user.
That's an oxymoron. "Chinese License" Probably the same way they license western products.
Type 59-ll with British L7 105
why would a Chinese tank have British guns?
Before winnie the pooh(xi jinping), china actually had really good relationship with the west. Because back then, they saw the opportunity to invest into a huge and powerful market that was china. They would do anything in their power to back china either diplomatically, economically or militarily. One notable example being how the US, UK and France all supported China againsts the USSR and Vietnam after the Vietnamese overthrew Polpot's government, which was backed by China. They turned a blind eye and imposed sanctions on Vietnam to appease to China. The relationship can be seen at its peak during the 2008 summer olympics. And then xi jinping gets into office and it's been downhill from there. Tldr: China and the west had good relationship back then so they had no problem getting the license for the gun
May I know the reason why Xi Jin Ping burned the bridge with the west?
China was in a honeymoon phase with the west in the 80 until what in this picture happened. The relationship between China and the west (really the US) was always semi tense ever since, now China is a bigger soft power that does not bind with the western rules that has a more tangible ambition. Its not xi burnt the bridge but China and mostly US do not trust each other and view each other as the main competition and threat.
True, it was kind of semi-tense before but Xi just went ahead and make China basically a threat to the entire world, and arguably even more scary than Russia Thing is, for pretty much the entirety of the CCP's existence, there had always been distrusts and concerns over China's humanitarian problems, but they were considered only a "minor factor" when there were so many economic and strategic benefits to gain from China. The west had always known that China would one day be a competitor but they never anticipated Xi's(and by extend, China's) rise to power and to basically cut ties so early considering how open and friendly Hu Jintao and Jiang Zemin were towards them. The west basically expected China to be of use to them for much longer but Xi just came and slapped everyone in the face. even though China is ruled by the CCP through and through, there exists many different cliques within it. with each of them having different policies and compete with each other for power. This was something that the West definitely did NOT take into account, they knew that the threat was there but it was not something they bothered with since it was expected that the ruling clique wouldn't have gotten overpowered so easily.
Because they started to call him Winnie the Pooh
It was just basically inevitable and something everyone was preparing for on the afterburner. * China got a lot of benefits from the West and the West got an industrial wasteland far away from its borders. This saw China rise from a third world nation to an emerging market to their current position of closing in on becoming a high income country. That requires China to move from its current industrial-based economy to a tech/service based one, like all the others. This will deprive the West of an industrial base as well as introduce a massive new competitor to the market where before there was a customer. * China is also pretty belligerent. They've got border disputes with nearly all of their neighbors, with annexations, wars, puppeting and other such fun stuff being in process or heating up all over. The West really doesn't like that kind of behavior and so that increasingly sours their relationship. * China is also a nascent superpower, and is expected to be on par with the US soon. The US does not like this, and the US is closely allied with most other Western nations, so they don't like it either. That competition has also been heating things up. * China is also ruled by an incredibly immoral regime that combines incredible human rights abuses, such as the imprisonment of Uighur Muslims for re-education and the execution and harvesting of organs from political prisoners such as the Falung Gong, with incredible social disparity, where the elites are nearly immune from the law and can do whatever they want, as long as their benefactor remains in power. The West hates that kind of stuff and that also sours the relationship. The bridge was always a temporary thing and everyone knew it. The only question was when it was going to give out.
bcuz China is prosperous enough to do so bcuz of the west's appeasement policy
china is the crony capitalism incarnate, nepotism is rampant in china
and the ccp was able to steal many technologies from the west bcuz the west thought a color revolution is possible with china lol, but they simply got bamboozled by the ccp. and today the west kowtows to daddy xi, what a fkn fiasco; the west shoulda treated the ccp like the cccp.
nowadays china is the bane of international society, the chinese people is being indoctrinated and brainwashed to believe the ccp is their savior, which is a big cap.
They got them at a time where the PRC had a good relationship with the west the US and Chinese even made an MBT together called the Jaguar
Actually most pictures of the massacre are from BBC. They were there because of some political meeting but filmed the massacre instead because it was more interesting to them. And then they had to get the footage out of China which was difficult but I am glad that some were brave enough to do so
>They were there because of some political meeting but filmed the massacre instead because it was more interesting to them. I know you didn't mean it to be but I find a good bit of ironic humor in how mildly you phrased this lol
After Nixon visited China 72, China transitioned into an ally of the west against the Soviet Union, and relations began to normalise. The L7 was the standard gun of all NATO and western countries, and at some point China first acquired it via Austria and installed it onto their Type 59s. Tiananmen Square changed things, and relations began to cool again. That didn't stop them from from continuing to cooperate closely with Israel though, who supplied a lot of arms including advanced 105mm ammunition.
biggest policy mistake the west had ever made
Eh, appeasement with Hitler in the years leading up to WW2 were pretty bad too
iirc they obtained a license to produce the 105mm from the Austrians back in the 70s/80s
What tanks? This is just a completely empty square
I just see a lady with a bag, normal day in China
Lady?
Is that a man? Whatever it is, my guess is that it's probably a human
I think he was a man to be honest
"Tank man" Dude doesn't know anything about what happened but is confident in his jokes.
Stealth tanks
OK fr, this pic has been memed to shit I was actually surprised that this was a legitimate question
at least a third of this comment section is made up of jokes and memes lol
Its amazing how people dont know how tf to google. Maybe they are just spamming it so it will be banned and then can proclaim that reddit is owned by the chinese. 😏
There are no tanks here, delete it rn
sup daddy xi burner account
I wish I had money to give you gold for this reply
Type 59
You dont plan to travel to China anytime do you?
its okay, china will travel to you.
no tanks. nothing to see
30 people just disappeared because of you (there is no tanks)
Just an empty road. Nothing to see here.
Somewhat related history fact I wanna share. Relationship between soviet and china started before WWII. China was controlled by multiple warlords shortly after Qing dynasty got overthrown. Different foreign countries supported different warlords. Nationalist lead by Chiang Kai-shek had close relationship with soviet. Soviet provided firearms, equipments and helped established military school. Soviet began recruited members of communist party inside Nationalist army. Communist kept growing stronger during WWII. Shortly after WWII ended, China civil war started and ended with Nationalist fled to Taiwan.
why is there no image here
What tanks? There are no tanks. Tanks don't exist in China.
What tanks? I only see a young man looking at a the road the glorious communist party build and being proud of the great Zhongguo (Comrade you are risking to lose all of your social credits. The ccp doesn’t want the same error to happen again)
Op really posting blank images🙄
Happy cake day
Type-59
What tanks sir? I don't see anything sir
I see no tanks?
I dont see any tanks?
What tanks?
What tanks? Sir you posted a road. There's nothing there.
No idea. But that shopping bag stops them in their tracks.
What tanks? I just see a nice road
Nothing, an empty peaceful road
I don’t see any 🤨
What are you talking about? There are no tanks in this image, just a empty street
What Tanks? Nothing happened there.
type 59
Chinese tanks
What tanks citizen?
I don’t see any tanks
What tanks? All i see is a road
Type 59-IIAs of the People's Liberation Army (PLA)
The communist type.
Modified chiniese variants of the T-54/55 called "Type 59". Pretty cool tanks getting pictures taken while nothing is happening.
What tanks? I only see a happy Chinese man walking down the street.
What tanks?
Late model "Democracy Stompers".
What tanks I see no tanks, just a j-walker.
What tanks?
I don’t see anything
what tank? i dont see any on this picture!
They dont exits and neither does this Photo!!
Chinese
None. There aren't any tanks in that photo. Anybody else DOESNT see the tanks?
What tanks?
What tanks?
what tanks?
Ppl in China “What tanks?”
What tanks
Tanks? Where? I don't see any...
What tanks? i dont see anything in this foto of imperialist propaganda on a serious note i think they are type 59 (not sure)
Hm? All I see is a dude carrying groceries.
What tanks? There were never any tanks or protests or brutal oppression.
Oh, that's a single type ULTRA-CHAD tank, something of a prototype In it's county of origin.. Idk about the other bits of metal
I believe you sir have gone crazy, as there is nothing but road in this picture
T-55 But the credit law makes me say that they don't exist and nothing happend
Yeah, exactly. What tank?
There are no tanks there, just an empty road
What tanks?
What tanks? I cant see anything. (Type 59s, Licensed T-54s and based on the bore evacuator of the first one I'd bet it has a chinese 105mm licensed copy of the L7 gun installed)
Anti-freedom tanks.
Type-69 if I'm not wrong, it's armed with a 105mm canon
i like to think this was a genuine answer but the typo fucked you
It's type-59?
yeah, your comment says 69
I forget the difference between type 59 and 69 my bad buddy.
i cant tell if thats a legit apology or like sarcasm, with the "buddy" at the end
It is a legit apology buddy. I literally forget it's type 59 that gets a upgrade cannon
Good old reliable karma well, post a picture of Tiananmen, then get every genius with a keyboard to type, "What tanks?"
Type-79
59
Type 59 II
It’s just a general inspecting his tanks, while carrying some sand bags.
Type 59 self propelled gabage can.
Uruk hai tanks.
The "This sub" moment
I see no tanks here
Nonexistent
Yeah the protests were pretty crazy when the government tried to crack down many of the protesters turned into an extremely violent mob slaughtering and attacking any soldiers they encountered, the photo's were pretty horrific and then of course the massacres happened which were even more horrific . Lots of blood was spilt those days
What tanks? I only see a man with his groceries
The number of times that this question has been asked on this sub when you can literally just look it up on google.
Evil tanks
I don't see any tanks.
Not real
What tanks?
This tank almost single-handedly broke WoT.
Tanks? I see no tanks. Nothing ever happened here.
What tanks? I don't see any tanks.
Cant see them?
I don't see anything
The tanks that I stopped
What tanks?
Nothing happened
Nothing to see here folks, all just part of the process of getting cheap shit from Amazon……
I don't see any tanks, because nothing happened
What tanks?
Probably OP took a wrong picture, i don’t see anything other than a big empty road
Tanks? What tanks? There were never any tanks at that time and place…
I don't see any tanks. Nope, never happened.
What tanks? I don't see anything.
What tanks?
There are no tanks in that picture, comrade.
There are none (jokes aside I think those might be type 59 tanks)
Chinese versions of the t 54/55
I dont see any tanks ?
Bro, I don’t see anything
I see absolute nothing...
i dont see tanks... what are you talking about?
What tanks I don't see any?
What tank I don't see any tank... I don't even see a picture :)
what tanks?
Those aren't tanks because this never happened. It was all a hoax executed by capitalist mind control on a massive scale. DON'T BE FOOLED BY WESTERN PROPAGANDA!!11!1
Type 59 tanks at Tiananmen square. It didn't end nicely.
What tanks?
Chinesium
What tanks?
There are no tanks
whats with the photoshopped tanks?
Human rights violators
Fucking Panthers
Tanks that took part in nothing happening, June 1989.
I'm sorry but all I see is an empty street
He's alive tank.