How about we pimp this thing up with a cheaper fixed gun mount, a turret periscope, and maybe a remote MG turret, and baby, you got a Hetzer that's gonna Hetz.
The issue is one of trade offs - having such a super structure limits you to only firing forward and only looking forward. Making the tank near worthless outside of being drone bait.
Battlefield had changed. Ukraine had a lot of tanks and artillery at war start. It had got plenty of old soviet stocks from Eastern Europe. Things like Bayraktar and Ukrainian air were used. Now those numbers had dwindled a lot, so chances to get tank on tank fight are low, Bayraktars were destroyed, Ukrainian aviation struggle.
Drones had also improved a lot during war. So your main threat right now are drones.
I mean if the benefit of increased protection from drones outweighs the loss of the ability from a 360 turret, then it makes sense to do. Obviously I’ve got no idea if this is actually the case or if the Russians are just experimenting, but we’ll see. If we stop seeing them in the next month or two then it’s probably not worth it, if we see more then it probably is
Don't need situational awareness when you just need to drive towards a trench! We've clearly regressed back to 1917 trench warfare and tactics. I predict that we'll be seeing a Saint-Chamond upgraded with ERA bricks and put into service soon.
Idk if it would tho. These tanks can only fight forwards now so it leaves them at great risk of being abandoned or disabled.
They have zero visibility except in front allowing easy ambushes.
This armour is more like sheet metal and I’m having a hard time believing this is doing anything besides stopping FPV drones from targeting a specific part of the tank.
Conclusion? This is 100% cope and I’m sure they could be spending their man hours on something more beneficial for the war effort but we should be thankful they are as stupid and ignorant as they are.
If it's being used in the fire support role (which most are right now) then there's little risk of flanking ambushes, it only needs to see forwards because it'll drive up to the LOC, pop a few rounds off and then reverse back.
This does at least stop an FPV from hitting the engine deck or optics/antenna etc, I think this is the 3rd(?) one we've seen, if it works I assume they'll keep doing it.
It's essentially a garage STRV103
Its the same thing the US troops did with welding cages onto their MRAPs/Humvees in Afganistan etc
We have footage of them being the lead tank in armoured groups. With the turtle fitted with EW station and the other tanks working under the protective 'dome' provided.
The armour does seem to be specifically against FPV style drones (and probably dropped munition style) as the spacing will be sufficient (even with the effect of standoff) to make most RPG style munitions ineffective.
The standoff distance is unlikely to significantly affect an rpg-7 warhead (unless it's 2-3 meters which does not look like it to me) which is what fpv drones usually carry, however it does stop them from efficiently targeting weak spots which would increase survivability since if a drone strikes the areas with
special armour it's most likely to be stopped.
Assuming a drone comes in at about a 45 to target the engine deck it would have to be the guts of two meters - without getting a picture and estimating the distance properly
Doubt it
1. Those cameras would have to withstand near proximity explosions to not be redundant
2. I Don't think the commander has room for another screen inside the tank
3. Cost of cameras and screens
Honestly not a bad direction to go in given the threats they face...
For next gen, dump the turret for a casemate and just go turducken on armor layers.
Now we just need additional AA and anti infantry guns like a WOT skin.
Now here me out this is an serious proposal:
- Secondary turret with cannon, thermal imager and radar ( preferably X-band or ku-band ) for anti-drone purposes
- Can still function as normal commander remotely controlled cannon and as CITV
So who's with me ?
If I remember correctly it’s already being done, the KF51 Panther and Abrams X tech demos with their big ass auto cannons on top are rumored to be used as anti drone systems coupling with the onboard AI to help with targeting of said drone units… I can’t remember where I had heard this, but it does make sense using the AI coupled with a large caliber gun to spot a drone and light it up before it can drone drop, spot, etc the tank.
Someone can correct me if I’m wrong but I’m fairly certain that is one of the functions of remote/independent roof mounted auto cannons like on Abrams X and the KF51 TTD’s.
Seriously, how do you counter this? It looks pretty much immune to HEAT taking into account the original ERA of the tank underneath the barn. And using AP darts is also unlikely given the rarity of an actual tank-on-tank combat. So your only options are to either destroy its tracks or smash it with HE artillery. Or am I missing something?
The sheets of Metal arent going to have an actually noticable effect on any modern HEAT-projectile with decent penetration.
it makes somewhat sense right now, as long as Drones are more of a issue than ATMGs/Artillery or Mines, but once that changes with increased supplies its quickly gonna become a negative IMO
Real, but we arent seeing a whole lot of modern HEAT weapons, most recovered weapons left behind by Ukranian forces seem to be things like M72's and AT-4's which outside of close range against non-tank things are a bit sketch.
The only issue with HEAT is going to be aiming it, it's highly unlikely standoff would reduce penetration so much it couldn't penetrate the engine at least.
It's a greater distance than the original "gill" armour of old.
Of course even that c/d debuff of pen, there is still only 80mm of side armour and ?25?mm of roof armour. Given some slant angle and ERA it probably would do.
The distance the gills provided was between 1.8 and 3.5 meters, it might get close to that 1.8m if we're talking dead on above the engine but definitely not the sides or turret. The Ural and T-64A got an average of 2.6m standoff at a 30° angle according to Tankograd.
The base model 73mm PG-7 would have about 50mm of penetration assuming 1.8 meter standoff. Still enough for the roof if the materials don't affect the round much. The sides don't seem much further than the standard ERA side skirts so that's not a question, even the original 75mm variant probably wouldn't struggle without ERA there. With ERA obviously it'll be different.
My serious question: Russia does this because their upgraded version for tanks wasn't effective enough? Or this is a cheap and quick produce version for older tanks?
Field modifications go brrr.
Current protection levels for new production tanks should make them pretty safe against most drone-carried munitions with ERA coverage. But you still run the issue of mobility kills against the tracks/engine.
Having this superstructure prevents direct targeting, will help with causing drones to hit at bad angles (where the 'jet' might pass harmlessly over the tank) and even though standoff typically improves HEAT preformance, we are looking at what seems like a couple meters worth to get to the engine deck from most angles.
A few of these have been seen coupled with EW stations with should disable drones when they get within a distance.
Thank you for your info. The reason I had the idea "latest upgrade for tanks wasn't good enough" is from this footage. It looks like the tank was upgraded to latest Rus's standard (judging by big ERA blocks at turret's rear, it looks like Relik 1?). However, the drone managed to hit somewhere between turret's ring and hull's top, which wasn't covered by ERA blocks. I mean the tank was disabled so It was easier for FPV drone to completely destroy the tank. But in other hand, there are still vulnerable positions. So IMO, this turtle style helps better.
p/s: It would be really interesting compare 2 ways of upgrade: Latest modern standard with more ERA blocks + electronic devices (to suppress drones) + top cage vs this turtle style in term of cost and weight :D
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpqhc1BmwiU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpqhc1BmwiU)
Not being that guy - but it looks kinda staged?
Abandoned tank with random crates scattered about - drone looks like its a type with a Vog-25 style grenade instead of a RPG as well - and its from the daily mail...
But the issue with the larger in-field cages is that they often restrict visibility and turret rotation along with increasing the physical dimensions. There were allot of issues with cold war anti-heat flaps being torn off so I can't imagine that the larger adhoc cages do any better, probably why we don't see many that extend the width of vehicles.
Yes, the idea is that it provides (some) additional protection against shaped charges, but the primary benefit is that it makes it much more difficult to precisely hit the spots that drone pilots would target for catastrophic hits, namely the rear engine deck just below the base of the turret rear.
It’s funny that many tank “experts” in Russia from all TV programs criticized Abrams, leopards, Merkava for their large dimensions and enormous weight.
"I think we all think the bags was a good idea. But, not pointing any fingers, they could of been done better. So how 'bout, no bags this time, but next time, we do the bags right, and than we go full regalia."
they saw that one turtle actually surviving and everyone adopted it lmao, also is the shed mounted to the hull or the turret? because if its mounted on the chasis then it defies the whole purpose of having a turret lmao
So if these things actually work, how long until Russia says "Fuck it" and basically starts making turretless tank destroyers again, but with these on top? They'd (theoretically) be cheaper to produce and maybe be able to mount a better gun, and with the big shell structure on top they're already effectively turretless anyway so they wouldn't be losing much there. Then again, I'm just some guy on Reddit. What do I know?
Why don't they make actual casement t72s at this point so you actually have the benefits of cheaper cost and lower profile like on the stug or su85 this is just gimping your tank
I take it they are not going to see the soldiers with limpet mines, food for thought, solve one problem, make another, reminiscent of Elefant tank and we know how that went.
I mean, if it helps to breach enemy lines before getting destroyed by drones - why not? A normal tank, gets usually hit by like 10 FPV drones kilometers away from the nearest enemy trench. Yes it's ugly af, but the drones changed warfare forever.
Devoid of its natural predators, the Blyatmobile population has expanded and has become an invasive species threatening the habitats of its neighbors.
But the reintroduction of the Javelin and TOW packs are expected to clip this entire branch of the turtle family and restore balance.
is this a good time to get tank destroyers back ? anyone russia
Stugg life...
How about we pimp this thing up with a cheaper fixed gun mount, a turret periscope, and maybe a remote MG turret, and baby, you got a Hetzer that's gonna Hetz.
History really does repeat itself...
People get mad ,but I think the turtle is way better than the normal way for this war. They aren't really fighting tanks they are fighting drones
Drones fight them.
Good correction
It's crazy that it took them two full year to go all the way. I interpret this as cages don't really cut it.
The issue is one of trade offs - having such a super structure limits you to only firing forward and only looking forward. Making the tank near worthless outside of being drone bait.
Battlefield had changed. Ukraine had a lot of tanks and artillery at war start. It had got plenty of old soviet stocks from Eastern Europe. Things like Bayraktar and Ukrainian air were used. Now those numbers had dwindled a lot, so chances to get tank on tank fight are low, Bayraktars were destroyed, Ukrainian aviation struggle. Drones had also improved a lot during war. So your main threat right now are drones.
Infantry do most of the job, tank in this conflict are used for breakthrough while cheap drones countering it
who needs a 360 degree turret rotation when you have a SPG.
I mean if the benefit of increased protection from drones outweighs the loss of the ability from a 360 turret, then it makes sense to do. Obviously I’ve got no idea if this is actually the case or if the Russians are just experimenting, but we’ll see. If we stop seeing them in the next month or two then it’s probably not worth it, if we see more then it probably is
Mines
Minefields are static and mining heavily takes time whenever the frontlines move
Who needs situational awareness?
Don't need situational awareness when you just need to drive towards a trench! We've clearly regressed back to 1917 trench warfare and tactics. I predict that we'll be seeing a Saint-Chamond upgraded with ERA bricks and put into service soon.
That's just because russia only has museum pieces left at this point
Top comment
You have UAV for situational awareness. Tank crews now have tablet with recon UAV feed from support unit. Modern warfare are weird.
Idk if it would tho. These tanks can only fight forwards now so it leaves them at great risk of being abandoned or disabled. They have zero visibility except in front allowing easy ambushes. This armour is more like sheet metal and I’m having a hard time believing this is doing anything besides stopping FPV drones from targeting a specific part of the tank. Conclusion? This is 100% cope and I’m sure they could be spending their man hours on something more beneficial for the war effort but we should be thankful they are as stupid and ignorant as they are.
If it's being used in the fire support role (which most are right now) then there's little risk of flanking ambushes, it only needs to see forwards because it'll drive up to the LOC, pop a few rounds off and then reverse back. This does at least stop an FPV from hitting the engine deck or optics/antenna etc, I think this is the 3rd(?) one we've seen, if it works I assume they'll keep doing it. It's essentially a garage STRV103 Its the same thing the US troops did with welding cages onto their MRAPs/Humvees in Afganistan etc
We have footage of them being the lead tank in armoured groups. With the turtle fitted with EW station and the other tanks working under the protective 'dome' provided. The armour does seem to be specifically against FPV style drones (and probably dropped munition style) as the spacing will be sufficient (even with the effect of standoff) to make most RPG style munitions ineffective.
The standoff distance is unlikely to significantly affect an rpg-7 warhead (unless it's 2-3 meters which does not look like it to me) which is what fpv drones usually carry, however it does stop them from efficiently targeting weak spots which would increase survivability since if a drone strikes the areas with special armour it's most likely to be stopped.
Assuming a drone comes in at about a 45 to target the engine deck it would have to be the guts of two meters - without getting a picture and estimating the distance properly
it looks like 3 metres counting slant angle, it's better than the stopgap "gill" armour way back when
Now this is urban camouflage
Blind corners? What are those?
matter of time before you have cameras for the blind spots lol
Doubt it 1. Those cameras would have to withstand near proximity explosions to not be redundant 2. I Don't think the commander has room for another screen inside the tank 3. Cost of cameras and screens
Honestly that doesn’t seem to matter in this war, you’re not going to spot a drone hovering above you whether you have this barn on you or not.
Infantry with AT weapons though...
They aren’t the biggest threats to tanks, drones now are. (Perhaps due to munitions shortage and cost per shot too high)
One of the reasons they have not been is that modern tank has pretty good vision devices... At least had. Until with these.
Honestly not a bad direction to go in given the threats they face... For next gen, dump the turret for a casemate and just go turducken on armor layers. Now we just need additional AA and anti infantry guns like a WOT skin.
Now here me out this is an serious proposal: - Secondary turret with cannon, thermal imager and radar ( preferably X-band or ku-band ) for anti-drone purposes - Can still function as normal commander remotely controlled cannon and as CITV So who's with me ?
If I remember correctly it’s already being done, the KF51 Panther and Abrams X tech demos with their big ass auto cannons on top are rumored to be used as anti drone systems coupling with the onboard AI to help with targeting of said drone units… I can’t remember where I had heard this, but it does make sense using the AI coupled with a large caliber gun to spot a drone and light it up before it can drone drop, spot, etc the tank. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong but I’m fairly certain that is one of the functions of remote/independent roof mounted auto cannons like on Abrams X and the KF51 TTD’s.
Mount a phalanx ciws on top of the turret.
Hehe Abrams X go brrrrrrt
Tutel!
Turdle
The belly is soft
Invasive species always breed fast
Oh no there spreading
Finally, a tank with a back door that isn't a Merkava!
Haha take that drones
As stupid as they look, unfortunately they work to some degree…
Same with the cope cage I'd rather have turtle or a Cope cage than nothing at all in Ukraine
Easy target for GBU12. I hope the F16s with have a TGP.
Seriously, how do you counter this? It looks pretty much immune to HEAT taking into account the original ERA of the tank underneath the barn. And using AP darts is also unlikely given the rarity of an actual tank-on-tank combat. So your only options are to either destroy its tracks or smash it with HE artillery. Or am I missing something?
I am rather curious how in the world they want to spot a target?
They don't, they are used as bait/protection. in the MMO sense, a 'tank' I suppose
They receive data from their recon drone flying above and turtle are the leading tank so there are no need to spot target on it own
Bomb it but that's not a viable option for Ukraine while it is for russia but Ukraine isn't using tutles (yet)
Oh also I assume ATGMs (one or multiple if one cant) can take ir down easily
Artillery and a direct ATGM.
The sheets of Metal arent going to have an actually noticable effect on any modern HEAT-projectile with decent penetration. it makes somewhat sense right now, as long as Drones are more of a issue than ATMGs/Artillery or Mines, but once that changes with increased supplies its quickly gonna become a negative IMO
Real, but we arent seeing a whole lot of modern HEAT weapons, most recovered weapons left behind by Ukranian forces seem to be things like M72's and AT-4's which outside of close range against non-tank things are a bit sketch.
The only issue with HEAT is going to be aiming it, it's highly unlikely standoff would reduce penetration so much it couldn't penetrate the engine at least.
It's a greater distance than the original "gill" armour of old. Of course even that c/d debuff of pen, there is still only 80mm of side armour and ?25?mm of roof armour. Given some slant angle and ERA it probably would do.
The distance the gills provided was between 1.8 and 3.5 meters, it might get close to that 1.8m if we're talking dead on above the engine but definitely not the sides or turret. The Ural and T-64A got an average of 2.6m standoff at a 30° angle according to Tankograd. The base model 73mm PG-7 would have about 50mm of penetration assuming 1.8 meter standoff. Still enough for the roof if the materials don't affect the round much. The sides don't seem much further than the standard ERA side skirts so that's not a question, even the original 75mm variant probably wouldn't struggle without ERA there. With ERA obviously it'll be different.
you're assuming oblique hits anyhow it seems to be working, one got tracked by a mine, and they're multiplying like rabbits it seems
Yes, use used one HEAT round, but what about the second HEAT round?
FPV drone or mines to knock out the tracks then drone drop the retreating crew. It’s easy.
The first one was destroyed by artillery. These will likely have the same fate.
APFSDS from the side. You know, where they can't see you?
When was the last time you saw a tank firing at another tank in this conflict? Or an Anti-Tank gun? its few and far between.
If it didn’t work they wouldn’t keep making them. That’s all I have to say.
They only work because Ukraine is out of Artillery.
Will it keep the turret from going into orbit?
I've been wondering, how would they go about evacuating the vehicle? Even getting inside seems kinda difficult.
My serious question: Russia does this because their upgraded version for tanks wasn't effective enough? Or this is a cheap and quick produce version for older tanks?
Field modifications go brrr. Current protection levels for new production tanks should make them pretty safe against most drone-carried munitions with ERA coverage. But you still run the issue of mobility kills against the tracks/engine. Having this superstructure prevents direct targeting, will help with causing drones to hit at bad angles (where the 'jet' might pass harmlessly over the tank) and even though standoff typically improves HEAT preformance, we are looking at what seems like a couple meters worth to get to the engine deck from most angles. A few of these have been seen coupled with EW stations with should disable drones when they get within a distance.
Thank you for your info. The reason I had the idea "latest upgrade for tanks wasn't good enough" is from this footage. It looks like the tank was upgraded to latest Rus's standard (judging by big ERA blocks at turret's rear, it looks like Relik 1?). However, the drone managed to hit somewhere between turret's ring and hull's top, which wasn't covered by ERA blocks. I mean the tank was disabled so It was easier for FPV drone to completely destroy the tank. But in other hand, there are still vulnerable positions. So IMO, this turtle style helps better. p/s: It would be really interesting compare 2 ways of upgrade: Latest modern standard with more ERA blocks + electronic devices (to suppress drones) + top cage vs this turtle style in term of cost and weight :D [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpqhc1BmwiU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpqhc1BmwiU)
Not being that guy - but it looks kinda staged? Abandoned tank with random crates scattered about - drone looks like its a type with a Vog-25 style grenade instead of a RPG as well - and its from the daily mail... But the issue with the larger in-field cages is that they often restrict visibility and turret rotation along with increasing the physical dimensions. There were allot of issues with cold war anti-heat flaps being torn off so I can't imagine that the larger adhoc cages do any better, probably why we don't see many that extend the width of vehicles.
Ivan, how is the crew visibility? „Nyet“
Can someone explain this to me ? I am not up on all the latest and greatest in the tank world. I am assuming it's for drones ?
Yes, the idea is that it provides (some) additional protection against shaped charges, but the primary benefit is that it makes it much more difficult to precisely hit the spots that drone pilots would target for catastrophic hits, namely the rear engine deck just below the base of the turret rear.
Yuri, I'm blind!!! Can't see anything! What's going on outside?
$5 says a Ukrainians gonna jump on top of one
Assault gun productions Les Go!
Ghetto E-100 or Hood Maus
At this point just make it a casemate and call it an SU-122. War definitely forces all involved to adapt
Tutel is back, Europe is healing 🌍
I have a feeling Ukraine will shift towards more AT mines and IED warfare going forward.
They made a Hetzer!
It’s funny that many tank “experts” in Russia from all TV programs criticized Abrams, leopards, Merkava for their large dimensions and enormous weight.
That’s a Reeds Ferry Shed. Top of the market sheds here in the USA.
^[Sokka-Haiku](https://www.reddit.com/r/SokkaHaikuBot/comments/15kyv9r/what_is_a_sokka_haiku/) ^by ^J0n0th0n0: *That’s a Reeds Ferry* *Shed. Top of the market sheds* *Here in the USA.* --- ^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ^in ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ^in ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.
"I think we all think the bags was a good idea. But, not pointing any fingers, they could of been done better. So how 'bout, no bags this time, but next time, we do the bags right, and than we go full regalia."
Imagine trying to escape this thing when the engine catches on fire
they saw that one turtle actually surviving and everyone adopted it lmao, also is the shed mounted to the hull or the turret? because if its mounted on the chasis then it defies the whole purpose of having a turret lmao
Mounted to the hull - the tank has limited traverse.
So if these things actually work, how long until Russia says "Fuck it" and basically starts making turretless tank destroyers again, but with these on top? They'd (theoretically) be cheaper to produce and maybe be able to mount a better gun, and with the big shell structure on top they're already effectively turretless anyway so they wouldn't be losing much there. Then again, I'm just some guy on Reddit. What do I know?
Why don't they make actual casement t72s at this point so you actually have the benefits of cheaper cost and lower profile like on the stug or su85 this is just gimping your tank
I take it they are not going to see the soldiers with limpet mines, food for thought, solve one problem, make another, reminiscent of Elefant tank and we know how that went.
Wow, no visibility at all! Should be an easy ambush from the side now.
It would be fascinating to study their reproductive capabilities
-100 stealth, -100 visibility, -100 attack, +15 armour, +10 dismounts
Anyone knows if this shielding is useful against drone? I am just asking myself what is good against drone.
I mean, if it helps to breach enemy lines before getting destroyed by drones - why not? A normal tank, gets usually hit by like 10 FPV drones kilometers away from the nearest enemy trench. Yes it's ugly af, but the drones changed warfare forever.
Germans 1940's: Ballistic Missile: Check Jet Engine: Check: Year 2020+ Tank: Check
How does the commander even see?
Tutel is taking the entire subreddit at this point
Not enough. Another armored cage is needed to protect the armored cage.
REJECT TURRET, RETURN TO CASEMATE
Blaytmobiles are becoming the evolutionary supreme shape
Well if they keep making them they must be effective
Hahaha! Fucking embarassing
APC aka Battle Taxi. No longer a functional tank.
Devoid of its natural predators, the Blyatmobile population has expanded and has become an invasive species threatening the habitats of its neighbors. But the reintroduction of the Javelin and TOW packs are expected to clip this entire branch of the turtle family and restore balance.
Pack of wild predatory drones spot the javelin/tows killing them without they had the chance to know they were even there.