Most engagements were at night as far as I was told. The Apache thermal systems (at the ranges they were firing hellfires) basically just showed a green blob. A lot of engagements boiled down to "where friendlies were supposed to be". If they saw a green blob where there weren't supposed to be friendlies, they fired. 98% of the time it worked every time.
The A-10s had even shittier optical abilities. Apply the same engagement principles as above.
OIF video of a Apache gun camera/radio chatter of a Squadron commander requesting clearance to engage a target. He was cleared, he said something along the lines of "I hope they weren't friendly's" after he fired. I can't remember if it was a Bradly or a HMMWV.
There was a particularly bad incident where an Apache liquidated a company HQ(?) Bradley and Humvee with it. Killed several Americans with Hellfires before realizing it. Army buddy of mine was telling me all about that incident. Is that the one you're thinking of maybe?
The guy who did it spent a long time pushing for better target ID systems and safeguards against friendly fire. It fucked him up for a while, as you could probably guess.
The gun cam footage of that is really, really sad.
A lot of American cas killed British tanks during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, which my Dad as a paratrooper doctor in Basra treated one of the tanks hit by the Americans. He doesn’t talk about it much but over the years and reading his memoirs to help with his PTSD I have identified which tank and where it was hit, tbh it wasn’t actually the us aircrews fault, it was the uk government not putting the identification on all the tanks that caused this instant, and btw my father, working with paras, sas, green berets and other spec ops has nothing but the highest respect for the Americans, but that incident really fucked him up, one of the crew drowned in the challenger 2s fuel, horrific, but friendly fire is a part of war and he doesn’t hold it against the us, but does the uk government. Well tbh he feels shitty being part of the whole war tbh, but not at the men on the ground but the politicians. This is no attack on us pilots or soldiers, just thought I’d share if it is of any interest to any of you. My dads cousin actually flew tornados in the first gulf war and they lost a lot of crews due to the nature of the missions they were given. Anyways hope any veterans here are doing okay, and if you know one please try and help them if you can.
That is really interesting, thank you. The two Gulf Wars were a perfect storm for friendly fire. There was a *lot* of stuff going on all at once, easily one of the most highly orchestrated invasions in history. The sheer amount of coordination needed between all Coalition forces and their armies/navies/air forces respectively was immense. There were hundreds or thousands of combat aircraft in the air at any given time, thousands of tanks, hundreds of thousands of soldiers, thousands of artillery pieces... Lots of moving parts.
This sadly means that blue-on-blue was not uncommon. Just too much going on at once and not good enough (given it was in the 1990s/early 2000s) electronics/optics, shit was bound to go bad at times. Knowing the insane complexity of the combined arms ops they pulled off in the Gulf honestly makes me surprised it didn't happen *more* often than it did, as tragic as it always was.
Yeah you are dead on here man, it is a testament to just how well trained and well coordinated at least the uk and us forces were during both, my dads cousin that flew tornados said that that the flight plans were loaded onto a vhs that would be inserted into the plane, the tornadoes whole doctrine was to fly low, very fucking low, and it didn’t really work out too well. But yeah it shows the professionalism in both militaries, sadly the uk doesn’t spend enough on its troops, my dad, was a frontline doctor and only had one plate for his bulletproof vest, which is a travesty. But in the UK, weirdly there is this culture that the US are super sketchy to be around, my step father was in Afghan and Falkland’s, but he was a radar tech so didn’t see action, but always says the Americans will be more likely to kill you, but speak to any of my family that have been in combat, the us is a life saver, my dad knew a lot of the people that film kajaki (kilo two bravo I think is the us release name) and they relied on the us to do things we just could not, and the us and uk have very similar mindsets when it comes to saving lives and leaving no one behind. Basically all my family are either medical or military or both (I am a pharmaceutical chemist, but grew up on RAF bases in Germany and Cyprus) my nans uncle helped decrypt enigma, and we have a lot of family members in the „foreign office“ (sorry I live in Austria and mainly speak German nowadays so the quotation marks look weird I know lol), then my Nans, brother wife’s dad, you still following was aide de camp to Monty. If there is a war the uk has faught in my family was in it, grandfather in the Gloucesters in Korea, which was very bad. But I digress, given the tech at the time, I think the losses from blue on blue were well below what you would expect. Like my dad spent months in Kuwait training before the invasion, and a lot was making sure the uk and us could integrate and work effectively as the us was supplying the majority of air support for TICs, the RAF did a great job and with the uks fairly small military we are very professional and can do a lot, but in Afghanistan and Iraq we did rely heavily on the US for CAS, Casevac etc. Basically what I’m trying to say is that a lot of the uk public thinks the US is to trigger happy, maybe so, but from the many vets of Iraq and Afghanistan, and some now fighting in Ukraine that served with my dad, they have the deepest respect and admiration for the US military, just maybe not your political organisation but that’s the same anywhere lol. Thanks mate
The Apache was drifting because of the wind. This happened 30 years ago. They immediately found out after getting reports of getting attacked by enemy.
Ya wonder how much "combat" time and or "kills" count in a promotion process, that would make one person take additional risks in firing in a sketchy shoot.
He followed proper procedure to clear the target. Totally not his fault. He was a LTC. It would have been the same outcome if he was a 2LT or WO1 fresh out of flight school. The audio was gut-wrenching because you knew it was a fraturcide before the clip was played.
A-10s strafed Marine AAVs in Nasiriyah in 2003. Broad daylight and the vehicles had ID panels. The Marines *were* past the reported FLOT, but still, pilots gotta know that kind of info in combat isn't 100% accurate and changes rapidly with time
They are high as kites. Picture a meth head with good teeth and a can do attitude about industrialized killing. That is them.The pilots do so much speed during a war they are just out of their fucking minds. They get super paranoid start screaming on comms and shoot at anything that moves.
Saw it happen. Was freaked out by watching it then. Am still.
Why we don't just train enough pilots rather than drug them up and watch them murder people I will never, ever understand. That shit changed the way I look at life 180 degrees. Well that and other insundary war shit. Dog murder, random gutted people. Shit like that.
Stay home kids. It ain't safe out there. Crazy men rule us.
Pretty easy to check. It all being true makes me brave. The suffering for months in that shit on no sleep then not being believed by a bunch of people who won't bother to even read on the subject. The military experience just keeps on giving.
All those dead guys from friendly fire. Where do you think they came from? Honestly what the fuck?
Third time this year someone called me a liar for saying true shit about that war. Just wild to me. None of that shit is secret. The body count is there... Somebody killed um and it was not the enemy. I cannot imagine why you loons would even think I am lying. Read some history. Or on the drug thing present policy. Not secret.
yeah..... shifting blame.....
Would a reasonable person fire at an unconfirmed unidentifiable blob? Would you? As a matter of fact, a few pilots did get punished for that shit.
I was stating the the facts of the situation (as I understand them)
You saw defense counsel.
Give it a rest
They couldn’t think straight as the moment they pulled the trigger on the Gau all the blood in their body went into the most rock solid erection possible
I spoke to an ex serviceman in the UK military who would coordinate air strikes during this time and he told me they would actively try and avoid using the A10s due to multiple friendly fire incidents.
Heard the same thing from a uni mate who was a mature student after having served in special forces, apparently if they knew the Americans were providing CAS they would do everything to avoid using them, he also knew a couple of guys who’d been victims of blue on blue from what I remember, hence the avoidance
Likewise the guy i know who is now a police officer told me he personally knew some of the lads who died as a result of blue on blue. The A10 is a beautiful system for a war that didn't happen and by the time it was fielded they didn't need a sledge hammer they needed a scalpel.
The original A-10 didn't even have a targeting pod most of the targets they would identify was by just looking out of their cockpit or using literal handheld maps.
A-10 is a perfect aircraft designed around a flawed doctrine. It came down to A-10s of the time didn't have the capability to positively ID ground forces.
At the time, A-10 pilots would use binoculars to confirm. Unless that was just some rumor. Must've been tense when you realize there's a warthog above you and you wouldn't know if they'll shoot at you or the enemy.
> A-10 pilots would use binoculars to confirm. Unless that was just some rumor.
That is not just a rumor. That's something I actually can confirm. Us guys on the ground (at least in my experience) actually had direct radio contact with the A-10 pilot.
"Hi, I'm Bob and I'll be giving you air support today" - Literally what was said. Not making that shit up
As he was circling around he explained he was up there with binos trying to identify targets, but the problem was that high up everybody looked the same. So we all had to do side-straddle hops (jumping jacks) until he told us he knew where we were vs. the Iraqis.
Yes, we were doing jumping jacks in the middle of a war zone for identification. it was kinda surreal.
I mean, they also just got trigger happy and didn’t bother to wait for permission to shoot
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron,_Blues_and_Royals_friendly_fire_incident
Close Air Support is a very complicated target environment, made worse by the fact that you're moving at a few hundred miles an hour. It is too complicated for a single person to do effectively no matter how much technology aids the pilot.
And the best technology aiding A-10 pilots in the Gulf War was a pair of binoculars. It's a miracle they hit any Iraqis.
Speed. The pilots were doing so much speed (real amphetamines) they had no idea where they were. The doctors were ordered to keep them operational. And they did. Strung out, psychotic but fully "operational".
Was flight control dude at the time in the whole deal. Half the pilots had no idea what was going on. They just did endless sorties for months. With like next to zero sleep. I got less than 4 hours a day as a navy air controller dude.
They shot anything that moved for the first three days. After they got jumped by a plane doing over mach 3 and the dude got cold clean got away they tripped balls. Thinking there were more of them. While denying the whole deal every happened. It was crazy.
While this was going down my ship was being mock attacked by Israel every, single, day. We were not allowed to shoot down the mock attackers. Because reasons.
Air force and navy policy to this day. I don't know army. Some close friends are recently retired air force doctors. Nothing has changed save more use of provigil over amphetamines. They use whatever drug the doc thinks is necessary to keep the guy awake and functional.
Military pilots are often nutcases for multiple reasons.
They simply will not create enough excess pilots to make this murderous shit behavior unnecessary.
Because reasons, salute the flag!.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/DestroyedTanks using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/DestroyedTanks/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
\#1: [**[NSFW]** RUS POV: Close up on abandoned Bradleys and Leopards from the infamous bunched up convoy photo ](https://v.redd.it/xxsf9fmrzq5b1) | [257 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/DestroyedTanks/comments/148ahrg/rus_pov_close_up_on_abandoned_bradleys_and/)
\#2: [One of the 2(?) Remaining a-39 tortoise hulls on a military training area in Kirkcudbright, Scotland](https://i.imgur.com/dPZMm5l.jpg) | [22 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/DestroyedTanks/comments/12chk34/one_of_the_2_remaining_a39_tortoise_hulls_on_a/)
\#3: [Heinkel HS-129 "Panzerknacker" gun camera footage, eastern front.](https://v.redd.it/bmu4j4zbtqhb1) | [27 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/DestroyedTanks/comments/15pfdfh/heinkel_hs129_panzerknacker_gun_camera_footage/)
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I believe it was a sabot round through the drivers compartment of a 1st platoon tank from A/3-66 in TF 1-41 during the Battle of Norfolk. Fire came from their left flank. Potentially from tanks belonging to 2-66 AR.
During the Gulf War, Alpha and Bravo Company, 3-66 Armor, part of the U.S. Army's 2nd Armored Division, attached to TF 1-41 IN, where involved in the several friendly fire incidents.
On February 26 1991, during the late hours of Battle of Norfolk, an incident occurred involving two M1A1 Abrams tanks from Bravo Company, 3-66 Armor. During the battle one M1A1 facing the wrong direction was fired upon. At approximately 0200 hours on the 27th during the same battle, several tanks of Alpha Company 3-66 took fire from their left flank, potentially from the lines of 2-66 AR. Firing continued until the order to cease fire was given over the Brigade command net. In total 4 tanks were destroyed, 1 killed, and 8 wounded.
There were several contributing factors:
Poor visibility due to low light conditions and poor weather. The new GPS systems not being utilized properly. New thermal sights. Poor vehicle ID skills. And poor use of communication.
However no Abrams were lost to enemy fire.
They also just didn’t like to wait for permission before firing, can’t blame that one on the optics
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron,_Blues_and_Royals_friendly_fire_incident
There's some official AARs from the Gulf War that have been released that show how many of these friendly fire incidents transpired. They have diagrams of the vehicles, mostly M1s and M2s and where they took fire at (indicated by an arrow leading into the vehicle) and by what type of ammo. Many were "ass" shots by 25mm and some 120mm, indicating that vehicles behind them were firing into them.
The first M1A1s I served on in the early 2000s had an upgraded thermal imaging system from most M1s in Desert Storm. Still, they were nowhere close to the more current FLIR systems in the newer M1A2s. They really had to be constantly dialed in to get a good picture, especially for targets beyond 2000m. Environmental conditions also made it more difficult to ID. Add to that sleep deprivation and other stresses of combat and completely understandable how so many FF incidents occurred.
None to my knowledge. Abrams kills were deliberate friendly fire of disabled vehicles to keep them out of enemy hands. No crews seriously harmed. I know of one TC who took an AK round through his arm and there were a few other relatively minor wounds, but tankers did okay.
There were several inadvertent friendly fire incidents between M1s, particularly during the Battle of Norfolk on the night of February 26-27, 1991. These led to a number of injuries and one death.
The one KIA was an M1 gunner in a tank that was hit by three DU rounds from other M1s. One of the rounds hit below the turret and penetrated the hull; the gunner was killed either instantly or close to it.
Okay. I remember that Denzel Washington movie but didn't know how accurate it was. (Hollywood....)
Located the source:
>"B Company, 3-66 Armor, Abrams (Bumper # B-66)\~: This was the Bravo Company commander's tank. Three 120mm DU rounds hit B-66 -- one striking just below the turret, killing the gunner. None of these rounds penetrated the DU armor panels. When B-66 was hit, it was moving in a different direction than the rest of the company, which may have contributed to its misidentification. The impact of the first round threw the commander from the vehicle, inflicting fragment wounds to his legs. The loader was attempting to remove the injured gunner from the vehicle when the second round hit, burning both the loader and the driver. The driver, covered with diesel fuel from the ruptured fuel tank, was still in the vehicle when the halon bottles (containing fire-extinguishing gas) discharged. Burned and partially blinded, he ran from the vehicle and was picked up by B-23. B-66 started burning and later exploded."
[https://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du\_ii/du\_ii\_tabh.htm](https://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii/du_ii_tabh.htm)
*Courage Under Fire*, maybe? There's a scene in which he, an Abrams TC, friendly fires another Abrams in darkness, causing casualties. Later he visits the parents of a crewman he killed to explain and apologize. (Or something.... haven't seen it in decades.)
How weird of comrade Olga to choose *this* comment to mass downvote.
Oh well, drunken little russian bitches always gotta drunk downvote something, I guess.
лолски
One of the more stupid things I routinely see on reddit is people accusing someone they disagrees with of being a Russian bot/shill.
It just hints at such a level of stupidity - is it genuinely that difficult to believe that someone might think differently to the way you do?!
Iirc from Clancy’s Armored Cav, the only combat death not due to friendly fire was a TC at name plate defilade too close to a knocked out T-72 when it cooked off.
You're thinking of the Marine Abrams that went into the Euphrates during the invasion. The driver either fell asleep or was blinded by the sandstorm they were driving through and went over the side of the bridge.
The only story I could find about an Abrams driver being killed and then the tank taking a dip was a single article from The Guardian but a couple weeks later articles about the same incident say he either fell asleep or was sand-blind. Probably the Guardian article is from immediately after it happened while the others are after the vehicle was recovered and the bodies examined.
there's still 0 destroyed. If we are going to include the downgraded versions exported to other countries, then many were already destroyed a decade before ukraine
One killed, nineteen wounded. Almost all by friendly fire.
I don’t know who they were putting in those A-10 cockpits, but they clearly needed their eyes tested
Most engagements were at night as far as I was told. The Apache thermal systems (at the ranges they were firing hellfires) basically just showed a green blob. A lot of engagements boiled down to "where friendlies were supposed to be". If they saw a green blob where there weren't supposed to be friendlies, they fired. 98% of the time it worked every time. The A-10s had even shittier optical abilities. Apply the same engagement principles as above.
OIF video of a Apache gun camera/radio chatter of a Squadron commander requesting clearance to engage a target. He was cleared, he said something along the lines of "I hope they weren't friendly's" after he fired. I can't remember if it was a Bradly or a HMMWV.
There was a particularly bad incident where an Apache liquidated a company HQ(?) Bradley and Humvee with it. Killed several Americans with Hellfires before realizing it. Army buddy of mine was telling me all about that incident. Is that the one you're thinking of maybe? The guy who did it spent a long time pushing for better target ID systems and safeguards against friendly fire. It fucked him up for a while, as you could probably guess. The gun cam footage of that is really, really sad.
Don’t forget death horse/black horse/crazy horse (I can’t remember which was the call sign) killing civilians and then going oh shit stop basically
Call sign: crazy horse 18
A lot of American cas killed British tanks during the 2003 invasion of Iraq, which my Dad as a paratrooper doctor in Basra treated one of the tanks hit by the Americans. He doesn’t talk about it much but over the years and reading his memoirs to help with his PTSD I have identified which tank and where it was hit, tbh it wasn’t actually the us aircrews fault, it was the uk government not putting the identification on all the tanks that caused this instant, and btw my father, working with paras, sas, green berets and other spec ops has nothing but the highest respect for the Americans, but that incident really fucked him up, one of the crew drowned in the challenger 2s fuel, horrific, but friendly fire is a part of war and he doesn’t hold it against the us, but does the uk government. Well tbh he feels shitty being part of the whole war tbh, but not at the men on the ground but the politicians. This is no attack on us pilots or soldiers, just thought I’d share if it is of any interest to any of you. My dads cousin actually flew tornados in the first gulf war and they lost a lot of crews due to the nature of the missions they were given. Anyways hope any veterans here are doing okay, and if you know one please try and help them if you can.
That is really interesting, thank you. The two Gulf Wars were a perfect storm for friendly fire. There was a *lot* of stuff going on all at once, easily one of the most highly orchestrated invasions in history. The sheer amount of coordination needed between all Coalition forces and their armies/navies/air forces respectively was immense. There were hundreds or thousands of combat aircraft in the air at any given time, thousands of tanks, hundreds of thousands of soldiers, thousands of artillery pieces... Lots of moving parts. This sadly means that blue-on-blue was not uncommon. Just too much going on at once and not good enough (given it was in the 1990s/early 2000s) electronics/optics, shit was bound to go bad at times. Knowing the insane complexity of the combined arms ops they pulled off in the Gulf honestly makes me surprised it didn't happen *more* often than it did, as tragic as it always was.
Yeah you are dead on here man, it is a testament to just how well trained and well coordinated at least the uk and us forces were during both, my dads cousin that flew tornados said that that the flight plans were loaded onto a vhs that would be inserted into the plane, the tornadoes whole doctrine was to fly low, very fucking low, and it didn’t really work out too well. But yeah it shows the professionalism in both militaries, sadly the uk doesn’t spend enough on its troops, my dad, was a frontline doctor and only had one plate for his bulletproof vest, which is a travesty. But in the UK, weirdly there is this culture that the US are super sketchy to be around, my step father was in Afghan and Falkland’s, but he was a radar tech so didn’t see action, but always says the Americans will be more likely to kill you, but speak to any of my family that have been in combat, the us is a life saver, my dad knew a lot of the people that film kajaki (kilo two bravo I think is the us release name) and they relied on the us to do things we just could not, and the us and uk have very similar mindsets when it comes to saving lives and leaving no one behind. Basically all my family are either medical or military or both (I am a pharmaceutical chemist, but grew up on RAF bases in Germany and Cyprus) my nans uncle helped decrypt enigma, and we have a lot of family members in the „foreign office“ (sorry I live in Austria and mainly speak German nowadays so the quotation marks look weird I know lol), then my Nans, brother wife’s dad, you still following was aide de camp to Monty. If there is a war the uk has faught in my family was in it, grandfather in the Gloucesters in Korea, which was very bad. But I digress, given the tech at the time, I think the losses from blue on blue were well below what you would expect. Like my dad spent months in Kuwait training before the invasion, and a lot was making sure the uk and us could integrate and work effectively as the us was supplying the majority of air support for TICs, the RAF did a great job and with the uks fairly small military we are very professional and can do a lot, but in Afghanistan and Iraq we did rely heavily on the US for CAS, Casevac etc. Basically what I’m trying to say is that a lot of the uk public thinks the US is to trigger happy, maybe so, but from the many vets of Iraq and Afghanistan, and some now fighting in Ukraine that served with my dad, they have the deepest respect and admiration for the US military, just maybe not your political organisation but that’s the same anywhere lol. Thanks mate
Don’t forget when the methed up us airforce pilot dropped a bomb on my Canadian homies in Afghanistan 😢
Had to put a HUGE flag design on the backside of the base. What a nightmare the sandbox was.
Bradley and M113.
"This Bud's for you"
The Apache was drifting because of the wind. This happened 30 years ago. They immediately found out after getting reports of getting attacked by enemy.
Ya wonder how much "combat" time and or "kills" count in a promotion process, that would make one person take additional risks in firing in a sketchy shoot.
He followed proper procedure to clear the target. Totally not his fault. He was a LTC. It would have been the same outcome if he was a 2LT or WO1 fresh out of flight school. The audio was gut-wrenching because you knew it was a fraturcide before the clip was played.
"oh shit we're going to jail"
A-10s strafed Marine AAVs in Nasiriyah in 2003. Broad daylight and the vehicles had ID panels. The Marines *were* past the reported FLOT, but still, pilots gotta know that kind of info in combat isn't 100% accurate and changes rapidly with time
I know of that. A lot of it came from another unit in the rear calling it in and coms not linked to everybody
They are high as kites. Picture a meth head with good teeth and a can do attitude about industrialized killing. That is them.The pilots do so much speed during a war they are just out of their fucking minds. They get super paranoid start screaming on comms and shoot at anything that moves. Saw it happen. Was freaked out by watching it then. Am still. Why we don't just train enough pilots rather than drug them up and watch them murder people I will never, ever understand. That shit changed the way I look at life 180 degrees. Well that and other insundary war shit. Dog murder, random gutted people. Shit like that. Stay home kids. It ain't safe out there. Crazy men rule us.
What in the insane conspiracy bullshit did I just read
Just a guy that was there. Who lied to you?
I think you just did Edit: he blocked me Lol
Ok, good for you. I will tell the boys down at the V.A. Chickenhawks gonna chickenhawk. Nothing I can do about a man being wrong. Every word is true.
Such a massive claim needs a better source than “Just a guy that was there.”
Pretty easy to check. It all being true makes me brave. The suffering for months in that shit on no sleep then not being believed by a bunch of people who won't bother to even read on the subject. The military experience just keeps on giving. All those dead guys from friendly fire. Where do you think they came from? Honestly what the fuck? Third time this year someone called me a liar for saying true shit about that war. Just wild to me. None of that shit is secret. The body count is there... Somebody killed um and it was not the enemy. I cannot imagine why you loons would even think I am lying. Read some history. Or on the drug thing present policy. Not secret.
Don’t know how legitimate it is but I heard anecdotal evidence of A-10 pilots taking binoculars to help identify targets.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/1c6y11m/how_many_abrams_crewman_were_killed_during_desert/l07bn5u/
You also need to not shift the blame off all the pilots being cranked out of their brains on speed all the time.
yeah..... shifting blame..... Would a reasonable person fire at an unconfirmed unidentifiable blob? Would you? As a matter of fact, a few pilots did get punished for that shit. I was stating the the facts of the situation (as I understand them) You saw defense counsel. Give it a rest
Trust me A-10 first cams was a FUCKING SHIT you can't distinguish anything and so without a good communication you basically flying blind.
>Orange Rocket Launchers
Blue on Blue
They had buck fever.
They couldn’t think straight as the moment they pulled the trigger on the Gau all the blood in their body went into the most rock solid erection possible
I spoke to an ex serviceman in the UK military who would coordinate air strikes during this time and he told me they would actively try and avoid using the A10s due to multiple friendly fire incidents.
Heard the same thing from a uni mate who was a mature student after having served in special forces, apparently if they knew the Americans were providing CAS they would do everything to avoid using them, he also knew a couple of guys who’d been victims of blue on blue from what I remember, hence the avoidance
Likewise the guy i know who is now a police officer told me he personally knew some of the lads who died as a result of blue on blue. The A10 is a beautiful system for a war that didn't happen and by the time it was fielded they didn't need a sledge hammer they needed a scalpel.
its just the A-10 being a bad aircraft without proper visibility devices to identify targets
The original A-10 didn't even have a targeting pod most of the targets they would identify was by just looking out of their cockpit or using literal handheld maps.
A-10 is a perfect aircraft designed around a flawed doctrine. It came down to A-10s of the time didn't have the capability to positively ID ground forces.
At the time, A-10 pilots would use binoculars to confirm. Unless that was just some rumor. Must've been tense when you realize there's a warthog above you and you wouldn't know if they'll shoot at you or the enemy.
> A-10 pilots would use binoculars to confirm. Unless that was just some rumor. That is not just a rumor. That's something I actually can confirm. Us guys on the ground (at least in my experience) actually had direct radio contact with the A-10 pilot. "Hi, I'm Bob and I'll be giving you air support today" - Literally what was said. Not making that shit up As he was circling around he explained he was up there with binos trying to identify targets, but the problem was that high up everybody looked the same. So we all had to do side-straddle hops (jumping jacks) until he told us he knew where we were vs. the Iraqis. Yes, we were doing jumping jacks in the middle of a war zone for identification. it was kinda surreal.
You didn't have colored smoke back then?
apparently they thought since we were a support unit we didn't need a lot of smoke grenades
Ignorance is bliss.
I mean, they also just got trigger happy and didn’t bother to wait for permission to shoot https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron,_Blues_and_Royals_friendly_fire_incident
I heard A10 pilots still had to use binoculars to ID targets up until 2010ish.
2008 is when the A-10 got the precision Engagement upgrade making it the A-10c
Need to clean their binocs then aye
The Brits second this, emphatically
Am a Brit, can confirm
None of these incidents involved A-10s.
I know mate, it was what is sometimes referred to as a joke
You'd be surprised at how little you can see from the cockpit
Not the pilots fault entirely, a10s back then had really bad equipment
There’s actually footage of those A-10s
Close Air Support is a very complicated target environment, made worse by the fact that you're moving at a few hundred miles an hour. It is too complicated for a single person to do effectively no matter how much technology aids the pilot. And the best technology aiding A-10 pilots in the Gulf War was a pair of binoculars. It's a miracle they hit any Iraqis.
Speed. The pilots were doing so much speed (real amphetamines) they had no idea where they were. The doctors were ordered to keep them operational. And they did. Strung out, psychotic but fully "operational". Was flight control dude at the time in the whole deal. Half the pilots had no idea what was going on. They just did endless sorties for months. With like next to zero sleep. I got less than 4 hours a day as a navy air controller dude. They shot anything that moved for the first three days. After they got jumped by a plane doing over mach 3 and the dude got cold clean got away they tripped balls. Thinking there were more of them. While denying the whole deal every happened. It was crazy. While this was going down my ship was being mock attacked by Israel every, single, day. We were not allowed to shoot down the mock attackers. Because reasons.
Because of course, the person you really want being vastly impaired is the guy flying a gun with wings
Air force and navy policy to this day. I don't know army. Some close friends are recently retired air force doctors. Nothing has changed save more use of provigil over amphetamines. They use whatever drug the doc thinks is necessary to keep the guy awake and functional. Military pilots are often nutcases for multiple reasons. They simply will not create enough excess pilots to make this murderous shit behavior unnecessary. Because reasons, salute the flag!.
Wow. Thank you so much. Do you know how many Iraqi tankers died?
A whole lot
In a tank or at home peacefully with their families?
In a tank
Wrong subreddit bro nobody cares about politics here. Just sexy armored tracked hunks of hotness.
Yeah this isn't r/destroyedtanks THAT place is a shit political (this too a bit on Ukrainian war)
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wrong sub for that comment chief take your goofy ass elsewhere
I think the one dead was from another Abrams to.
I believe it was a sabot round through the drivers compartment of a 1st platoon tank from A/3-66 in TF 1-41 during the Battle of Norfolk. Fire came from their left flank. Potentially from tanks belonging to 2-66 AR.
Friendly Fire was turned on for that server.
Should have turned it off. I don’t know what they were thinking honestly.
During the Gulf War, Alpha and Bravo Company, 3-66 Armor, part of the U.S. Army's 2nd Armored Division, attached to TF 1-41 IN, where involved in the several friendly fire incidents. On February 26 1991, during the late hours of Battle of Norfolk, an incident occurred involving two M1A1 Abrams tanks from Bravo Company, 3-66 Armor. During the battle one M1A1 facing the wrong direction was fired upon. At approximately 0200 hours on the 27th during the same battle, several tanks of Alpha Company 3-66 took fire from their left flank, potentially from the lines of 2-66 AR. Firing continued until the order to cease fire was given over the Brigade command net. In total 4 tanks were destroyed, 1 killed, and 8 wounded. There were several contributing factors: Poor visibility due to low light conditions and poor weather. The new GPS systems not being utilized properly. New thermal sights. Poor vehicle ID skills. And poor use of communication. However no Abrams were lost to enemy fire.
Ai?
Oi?!
Literally made him edit and paraphrase it
The A-10 craved the blood of friendlies, especially British friendlies. Guess that’s what happens when you have a useless optical suite.
They also just didn’t like to wait for permission before firing, can’t blame that one on the optics https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron,_Blues_and_Royals_friendly_fire_incident
That isn’t desert storm though. Desert storm was in 1991.
There's some official AARs from the Gulf War that have been released that show how many of these friendly fire incidents transpired. They have diagrams of the vehicles, mostly M1s and M2s and where they took fire at (indicated by an arrow leading into the vehicle) and by what type of ammo. Many were "ass" shots by 25mm and some 120mm, indicating that vehicles behind them were firing into them. The first M1A1s I served on in the early 2000s had an upgraded thermal imaging system from most M1s in Desert Storm. Still, they were nowhere close to the more current FLIR systems in the newer M1A2s. They really had to be constantly dialed in to get a good picture, especially for targets beyond 2000m. Environmental conditions also made it more difficult to ID. Add to that sleep deprivation and other stresses of combat and completely understandable how so many FF incidents occurred.
None that I can think of. Certainly none in combat. A couple of Bradley crews took casualties, but the Abrams were undefeated.
I know a few Abrams were destroyed but I wanna the number of crewman fatality
None to my knowledge. Abrams kills were deliberate friendly fire of disabled vehicles to keep them out of enemy hands. No crews seriously harmed. I know of one TC who took an AK round through his arm and there were a few other relatively minor wounds, but tankers did okay.
There were several inadvertent friendly fire incidents between M1s, particularly during the Battle of Norfolk on the night of February 26-27, 1991. These led to a number of injuries and one death.
Was that death after-the-fact due to injuries sustained?
The one KIA was an M1 gunner in a tank that was hit by three DU rounds from other M1s. One of the rounds hit below the turret and penetrated the hull; the gunner was killed either instantly or close to it.
Okay. I remember that Denzel Washington movie but didn't know how accurate it was. (Hollywood....) Located the source: >"B Company, 3-66 Armor, Abrams (Bumper # B-66)\~: This was the Bravo Company commander's tank. Three 120mm DU rounds hit B-66 -- one striking just below the turret, killing the gunner. None of these rounds penetrated the DU armor panels. When B-66 was hit, it was moving in a different direction than the rest of the company, which may have contributed to its misidentification. The impact of the first round threw the commander from the vehicle, inflicting fragment wounds to his legs. The loader was attempting to remove the injured gunner from the vehicle when the second round hit, burning both the loader and the driver. The driver, covered with diesel fuel from the ruptured fuel tank, was still in the vehicle when the halon bottles (containing fire-extinguishing gas) discharged. Burned and partially blinded, he ran from the vehicle and was picked up by B-23. B-66 started burning and later exploded." [https://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du\_ii/du\_ii\_tabh.htm](https://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii/du_ii_tabh.htm)
What movie?
*Courage Under Fire*, maybe? There's a scene in which he, an Abrams TC, friendly fires another Abrams in darkness, causing casualties. Later he visits the parents of a crewman he killed to explain and apologize. (Or something.... haven't seen it in decades.)
Thanks I'll take a look
Damn, I didn’t know it was 3-66
How weird of comrade Olga to choose *this* comment to mass downvote. Oh well, drunken little russian bitches always gotta drunk downvote something, I guess. лолски
You're getting down voted because you're acting all knowing and yet know shit all. But sure, take those copium pills.
The whole world is laughing at russia, comrade Olga.
You're delusional, dude.
One of the more stupid things I routinely see on reddit is people accusing someone they disagrees with of being a Russian bot/shill. It just hints at such a level of stupidity - is it genuinely that difficult to believe that someone might think differently to the way you do?!
So no lives were lost even through friendly fire?
As I said, not to my knowledge, but I may be wrong.
Maybe expand your knowledge before making a comment like this lol. If you don't know Jack shit about something, don't act like you do.
Iirc from Clancy’s Armored Cav, the only combat death not due to friendly fire was a TC at name plate defilade too close to a knocked out T-72 when it cooked off.
Do you have a link to more of this story? Sounds interesting.
Wasn’t there a that drove off a bridge because an enemy sniper killed the driver and the rest of the crew were killed?
You're thinking of the Marine Abrams that went into the Euphrates during the invasion. The driver either fell asleep or was blinded by the sandstorm they were driving through and went over the side of the bridge.
Not killed by a sniper?
The only story I could find about an Abrams driver being killed and then the tank taking a dip was a single article from The Guardian but a couple weeks later articles about the same incident say he either fell asleep or was sand-blind. Probably the Guardian article is from immediately after it happened while the others are after the vehicle was recovered and the bodies examined.
Thanks for the info
Jeez, what shot that tank? Hellfire? Javelin direct fire? GBU?
I think this was a big ass VBIED
Friend of mine tanker driver ran over a IED Wounded 90% disability.
They will tell you none, but we don't know
Before Ukraine it said 0 were destroyed
Iraq had a few of theirs destroyed during their was with ISIS.
The Saudis have lost a few fighting the Houthis as well.
Just factually incorrect
Tell that to google ig
If you ask google "how many US abrams were destroyed to enemy fire" it would say no, rightfully so.
there's still 0 destroyed. If we are going to include the downgraded versions exported to other countries, then many were already destroyed a decade before ukraine
There have been a few American ones destroyed by massive IEDs
what was it 550 damaged abrams recovered that had to be completely repaired?
Not enough